Why MAGA's Falling Apart in Front of Trump: Wolff

Summary

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Inside Trump's Head — "Why MAGA's Falling Apart in Front of Trump: Wolff"

Podcast: Inside Trump's Head
Hosts: Michael Wolff & Joanna Coles (The Daily Beast)
Date: October 8, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Michael Wolff and Joanna Coles dissect the mounting fractures within the heart of the MAGA movement and Donald Trump's psyche as his political base splinters over recent controversies. They delve deep into the conspiratorial chaos following the assassination of Charlie Kirk, speculation around Ghislaine Maxwell, and the rise of Christian nationalism as a challenge to Trump’s dominance. The hosts illuminate how these intertwined scandals threaten to reshape the post-Trump right, with memorable commentary on the personalities at the center of the storm.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Podcast's Mission: Getting Inside Trump's Head

• Wolff insists conventional analysis only scratches the surface ("The whole narrative about Donald Trump is an exterior narrative, people watching what this guy does and trying to make sense of it. And our thesis is, you can't. You've got to come from the other side." — Michael Wolff, 02:52)
• Trump’s motivation is entirely about attention, not ideology or policy ("...like an actor, or like many actors, he’s a sociopath." — Michael Wolff, 04:45)

2. News of the Week: Ghislaine Maxwell and The Epstein Files

• Ghislaine Maxwell’s bid for clemency was rejected by the Supreme Court, tying Trump into fresh controversy regarding Epstein connections.
• Trump’s “Epstein face” — his evasive, forgetful posture — returns when questioned about Maxwell and Epstein ties (07:12).
  • Memorable: “He put on his Epstein face.” — Joanna Coles, 07:12
• The hosts assert there’s likely already a deal for Maxwell’s potential pardon, trading silence for clemency (Wolff: "I think a deal has been cut. Totally." — 09:00).

The Epstein Files and Political Fallout

• 218 House votes, including some Republicans, now favor releasing the Epstein files.
• Elon Musk briefly tweeted (and deleted) that Trump is implicated in these files. Hosts warn it will get redacted and weaponized by all sides (10:18–10:27).

3. Conspiracy Maelstrom: The Charlie Kirk Assassination

• The official Justice Department narrative says Tyler Robinson shot Kirk due to a relationship involving a trans partner (11:31).
• The MAGA Right, however, says this is a whitewash:
  • They posit Erica Kirk (Charlie’s widow), possibly a “sleeper agent” from Trump’s beauty pageant days, is complicit in Kirk’s death.
  • The real culprit, they allege, is Israel, silencing Kirk over his criticism of Gaza policy (13:19–14:31).
  • “Let me repeat, this is real nutso stuff. But I will say never discount nutso on the right.” — Michael Wolff, 14:25
• MAGA influencers (Tucker Carlson, Candace Owens, Nick Fuentes, Megyn Kelly) are amplifying these theories.

A Major Breach in MAGA

• Support for Israel, once a MAGA tenet, is now questioned as new right-wing voices accuse Trump of complicity in Kirk’s death due to his perceived loyalty to Israel and Netanyahu (16:17–17:49).
• Quote: “...these MAGA people, all of them heretofore pillars of the Trump movement, are now saying, ‘You're lying, you're involved in a cover up, you killed Charlie Kirk, essentially.’” — Michael Wolff, 15:27

4. Tucker Carlson and the Rise of Christian Nationalism

• Tucker is positioning himself as a leader for a post-Trump right, possibly aligning with the Christian nationalist movement (“Tucker may, you know, Tucker has political ambitions...Including running for president.” — Michael Wolff, 20:27–20:48).
• Hosts debate whether Tucker or J.D. Vance will inherit the MAGA mantle.

Christian Nationalism Defined

• The movement is newly ascendant, diverges from traditional Evangelicalism, has a broad (often reactionary, sometimes undisguisedly racist) policy agenda, and is deeply skeptical of Israel and globalism (32:27–33:22).
• “It is fundamentally, I mean, there’s a reason it is called Christian nationalism. It’s a white movement. It’s tinged with all kinds of racial or racist undertones and overtones. And it is Christian nationalism necessarily anti-Semitic.” — Michael Wolff, 33:32

5. Fragmentation and Succession: What Comes After Trump?

• Wolff: Trump has entered a “lame duck period”; many are angling for his base.
• The battle is now for the “body of Charlie Kirk”: Who inherits his symbolic power — J.D. Vance, the Christian nationalists, or a figure like Tucker Carlson? (35:35–37:05)
• Wolff notes that conspiracy-laden debates (Epstein, Kirk, Israel) all now converge as proxies in the wider war over Trump’s legacy and the next leader of the right.

6. Questions from Listeners — Insight Into Trump’s Psyche

• What will Trump do post-presidency? “He returns to Mar A Lago, still the king of the Republican Party, and he does exactly what he did the last time he returned... includes a lot of golf.” — Michael Wolff, 44:25
• What/who is Trump afraid of? “His wife.” — Michael Wolff, 45:36
• Speculation on Trump’s health, sleep, and rumored drug use: low-dose prescription uppers possibly in use (46:43–47:15).

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Conspiracies’ Purpose:
  “As most conspiracy theories are, it has a different purpose than the truth. And its purpose there is to take Charlie Kirk...the baby Jesus of the MAGA movement. And now the question is, who inherits that mantle?” — Michael Wolff, 35:36–36:06

• On Trump's Endgame:
  “The thing about Donald Trump is not that he should be the president, it’s that he should be Donald Trump. So as long as he is in his own mind and in the mind of the base Donald Trump, he’s a happy man.” — Michael Wolff, 44:46

• On Christian Nationalism:
  “...there’s a reason it is called Christian nationalism. It’s a white movement. It’s tinged with all kinds of racial or racist undertones and overtones.” — Michael Wolff, 33:32

• On Political Realignment:
  “The MAGA movement will now transition into something else. And everybody is trying to figure out what that is. With Charlie Kirk now, a piece of that, a useful piece, another figure from the grave.” — Michael Wolff, 41:49

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Podcast’s Analytical Approach: 02:52–05:21
• Ghislaine Maxwell & Epstein Legacy: 06:09–10:52
• Charlie Kirk Assassination & Conspiracies: 10:52–16:17
• Fracturing MAGA, Israel Rift: 16:17–19:34
• Tucker Carlson & Christian Nationalism: 19:34–24:00
• Succession Battle/Post-Trump MAGA: 28:00–37:05
• Listener Q&A — Trump's Mind & Marriage: 44:00–47:59

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Tone & Takeaway

Wolff and Coles blend biting cynicism with seasoned political analysis and dark humor. They treat conspiracies as both absurd and politically consequential, emphasizing how America’s right is redefining itself — and how Trump, once the movement’s infallible leader, now faces doubt, distrust, and unprecedented rifts. At the heart of it: a power struggle over who will inherit the MAGA mantle, with new ideologies and old scandals shaping the outcome.

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(Summary intentionally excludes advertisements, intros, and non-content sections.)

Transcript

[Michael Wolff]

Did I talk too much? Can't I just let it go? Thank you so much.

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[Michael Wolff]

The Justice Department still very clearly believes they've solved this crime. He shot Charlie Kirk because his. His lover is trans. Trans or in the process of. That's the Justice Department narrative. Now significant MAGA voices are coming forward and saying that's absolutely untrue. Not only is that absolutely untrue, but this is a cover up. It's a whitewash. It's a cover up. The Trump administration is telling a bald lie.

[Unidentified Co-host]

Michael Wolff.

[Michael Wolff]

We're here.

[Unidentified Co-host]

We're here.

[Michael Wolff]

You're here.

[Unidentified Co-host]

I'm here. I know. I'm very pleased to be back in the office, in our studio after two weeks sitting at home nursing hip surgery. And now I'm back and ready to get back on the tennis court with you. The verbal tennis court.

[Michael Wolff]

Shoot. Well, shoot. Serve. Serve.

[Unidentified Co-host]

I'm going to lob. I'm going to lob. But first we have to discuss where we're going because there may be new people who haven't seen this podcast. There may be people who've watched it occasionally.

[Michael Wolff]

We are going inside Trump's head. But I want to Say we are going there because other people don't. The whole narrative about Donald Trump is an exterior narrative, people watching what this guy does and trying to make sense of it. And our thesis is, you can't. You've got to come from the other side. This is all the product of one of the most peculiar minds ever to assume political leadership.

[Unidentified Co-host]

And I have often found, and certainly, as I was growing up, very difficult to follow politics because it was always covered in this dry, sort of policy format way, which made it very uninteresting.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, politicians are dry. Politics should be dry. Politicians at their best are dry. They are policy people, technocrats.

[Unidentified Co-host]

Right. Who get things done. Right. And who don't want to make it.

[Michael Wolff]

That is, the world is in balance. When politics is boring and dry, the world now is out of balance because politics is. So it is, to say the least, too interesting.

[Unidentified Co-host]

Well, and Donald Trump is a creature of television, as we have both talked about frequently. He knows how to perform with. We are living at a time of unprecedented social media and access to audiences, and every day he puts on a different performance.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, but even beyond that, like an actor, or like many actors, he's a sociopath.

[Unidentified Co-host]

Right. I'm thinking of my actor friends.

[Michael Wolff]

So it is all about his attention. What can. The attention he can get, the attention that he needs. So, I mean, that's a totally a political motivation, the likes of which we really never have seen, when it's just all about attention, all about his needs. So that's why we are inside Trump's.

[Unidentified Co-host]

Head, right, trying to figure out what his next move will be. And the thing that I find so extraordinary about him is just his ability to hold that attention. Even the most sociopathic actors need, need a bit of downtime. But one senses with Donald Trump, he doesn't want downtime. Downtime would be horrible for Donald Trump. Downtime is where he spirals. What he wants is just the attention on him all the time, because there.

[Michael Wolff]

Is no there in there.

[Unidentified Co-host]

Right. Well, we're beginning to discover that as we poke around. Right. With our magnifying glasses. I think this time we're going in with white coats and magnifying glasses, and possibly we're going to scrape some cells and look at them under the microscope. That's my metaphor instead of the caving metaphor.

[Michael Wolff]

That was a very long intro today. It doesn't have to be the intro onto the news.

[Unidentified Co-host]

Onto the news. Okay. Well, the news I am obsessed by is the Supreme Court has turned down Ghislaine Maxwell's plea for clemency and her determination to try and get her 20 year sentence for sex trafficking overturned. And as we saw yesterday, this puts our friend Donald Trump in a very tricky position.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. And just let me say this is no surprise that she was turned down.

[Unidentified Co-host]

Of course not. I mean, it was ludicrous that it would even get to the Supreme Court. Even this Supreme Court.

[Michael Wolff]

Right. Well, it did not get to the Supreme Court, but they refused to put.

[Unidentified Co-host]

It on their docket.

[Michael Wolff]

Right. And so. But the interesting moment was when then he was confronted on this issue by Kaitlan Collins of cnn, of cnn. And she asked if he was gonna pardon Ghislaine Maxwell. And at that moment, he put on his Epstein face.

[Unidentified Co-host]

His Epstein face. I love it.

[Michael Wolff]

And the Epstein face is like Epstein.

[Unidentified Co-host]

Yes, that kind of rings a bell. Epstein. I think we worked together years ago on a construction project, maybe Epstein, Palm Beach.

[Michael Wolff]

And that's how he responded about Ghislaine. Ghislaine. Ghislaine, yes. I haven't heard that name in a long time. Haven't heard that name in a long time. Just three weeks ago, he sent the number two, his personal lawyer, the number two in the Justice Department, down to where she is in prison.

[Unidentified Co-host]

Yeah. He sent Todd Blanche to Tallah, which has nice alliteration. And then a week later, Ghislaine Maxwell is suddenly transferred to a low security jail in Texas where she has a sister living nearby.

[Michael Wolff]

Club Fed.

[Unidentified Co-host]

Yes, Club Fed.

[Michael Wolff]

But Trump is, you know.

[Unidentified Co-host]

Well, and then also he says he has to look at it. He has to look into it. I'm going to look into it.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, will you pardon her? Well, you know, yeah, we'll discuss it with my Justice Department.

[Unidentified Co-host]

I am.

[Michael Wolff]

We have to discuss it, you know.

[Unidentified Co-host]

Right, right.

[Michael Wolff]

Maybe.

[Unidentified Co-host]

So if you were going on his Epstein face, which I'm now going to start looking out for, would you say. What would you say the odds are that Ghislaine does get a pardon from the President?

[Michael Wolff]

Overwhelming.

[Unidentified Co-host]

Overwhelming. Right. Because she's now thinking about all the things she's got on him. Right.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, I think a deal has been cut.

[Unidentified Co-host]

Oh, you think the deal's already been cut?

[Michael Wolff]

Totally.

[Unidentified Co-host]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes. So when, you know, how soon? By Thursday, Possibly. I mean, I'd say more conservatively, you know, we're out six months or so.

[Unidentified Co-host]

Wow. Wow. That's just astonishing. I mean, does it depend on the release of the Epstein files and what's happened to the Epstein files? Because we know they've now got the votes. There were the special elections which were won by Democrats in Arizona. And I think. I can't remember where the other one was. Was it Virginia? And now there are 218 votes for the release of the Epstein file because four Republicans crossed the House. Thomas Massie and the three women, Lauren Boebert, Marjorie Taylor Greene and. Who's the other one? Nancy Mace.

[Michael Wolff]

You know, I think that sooner or later there will be a vote to release the Epstein files per se. What that ultimately results in, we don't know, because they don't know. They're saying release something. And we don't know what it is that we're asking you to release.

[Unidentified Co-host]

But we do know because Elon tweeted it out and then deleted his tweet that Donald Trump is in it many times.

[Michael Wolff]

But we don't know that. So what we will ultimately see is pieces of this that come out redacted every which way. So this is. We've built this up as a solution to this, and it is not a solution, but nevertheless. And it will continue to be this roiled issue.

[Unidentified Co-host]

Okay, so also part of this royal issue is the suggestion that Jeffrey Epstein was a Mossad agent. And this is all caught up inside this new. Or these new conspiracies coming out of the Charlie Kirk murder, which appeared at first to be very straightforward. It was a guy called Tyler Robinson. He was caught on video jumping down off the roof where it looked like he had the easiest access to assassinate Charlie Kirk. And now it feels like all those things are up for grass.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, let's delineate the sides here. So that's not the consensus. The Justice Department still very clearly believes they've solved this crime. They have their culprit. Tyler Robinson is. You know, it happened. I mean, he. He shot Charlie Kirk because his. His lover is a trans. Trans. Or in the process of. That's the. That's the Justice Department narrative. Now significant MAGA voices are coming forward and saying that's absolutely untrue. Not only is that absolutely untrue, but this is a cover up. It's a whitewash. It's a cover up. The Trump administration is telling a bald lie.

[Unidentified Co-host]

Okay.

[Michael Wolff]

Tyler Robinson. And I am channeling what they're saying. I believe all this is not so. But their view is that Tyler Robinson is a fall guy. They set him up. They.

[Unidentified Co-host]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

That. Erika Kirk. Erica Kirk. The wife. The widow.

[Unidentified Co-host]

The widow.

[Michael Wolff]

The widow is. Let me see if I can extrapolate this properly. A sleeper agent somehow connected to her participation in a Donald Trump beauty pageant. So Trump and Erica Kirk go way back in because she was Miss Colorado.

[Unidentified Co-host]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

Establishing this sleeper relationship. She's activated to monitor Charlie Kirk and then appears to be complicit in the MAGA view or the view of some of these MAGA voices in her husband's murder. But the real culprit in the murder is Israel and they have murdered Charlie Kirk because he was expressing doubts about Israel's actions in Gaza and then apparently about to break with Israel and the general Republican Party in a much more dramatic way. So Charlie Kirk was therefore at that point taken out. Now, ah, now the implications here, I mean, I think the largest implication, I mean this is again, let me repeat, this is real nutso stuff. But I will say never discount nutso on the right.

[Unidentified Co-host]

Well and also I went down a spiral of this stuff and there is so much of it out there online. I mean it's all over the place.

[Michael Wolff]

No, and it's pick departments, real conspiracy stuff. I mean it's like all of these conspiracy nothing is what it should be. Every detail is compromised by another detail. You know, I mean real rabbit hole stuff.

[Unidentified Co-host]

Well, and also ironically, what's interesting is that at the head of the FBI you've got Keystone Cash Patel, as we call him in the Daily Beast, and you've got Dan Bongino as his number two, who were enormous conspiracy theorists before they got into that job and have had to wind it back in.

[Michael Wolff]

Trump himself of course, is a significant conspiracist.

[Unidentified Co-host]

Right. The birth certificate for Barack Obama being one of the first conspiracy theories.

[Michael Wolff]

So, but this is, so the implications, the most, the most dramatic implications are these people, these MAGA people, all of them heretofore pillars of the Trump movement, of the base are now saying, you're lying, you're involved in a cover up, you're guilty. And then this doesn't go, you killed Charlie Kirk, essentially. So we have a set of these kinds of breaches in the MAGA wall.

[Unidentified Co-host]

Which is why this is interesting and why we're taking it seriously because there are lots of conspiracy theories out there that we don't pay attention to. But this is interesting because it suggests a riff in the MAGA base.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes. And they come together. The nature of these, of the rifts that are occurring here and converging in Charlie Kirkwe have the instance of his death. You made that up, cover up. Why? Because you, the Trump, Trump, Trump White House are complicit in Israel's savage attack on Gaza, continuing attack. And we, these MAGA voices no longer accept that. So, and this is a big breach, you know, I mean, support For Israel has been a pillar again of the Republican leadership and of the evangelical movement. And soand with Trump at the center of it, I mean, trumptrump has beentrump does not say no to Bibi Netanyahu, it would appear. And actually, these MAGA voices insist on that. One of the other points isisand they keep repeating this is that is that Bibi Netanyahu is said to have said something like, I run Trump or I run America.

[Unidentified Co-host]

I think a lot of people are saying that.

[Michael Wolff]

So. And there's an enormous umbrage. Tucker Carlson is very much, how could anyone say this about my country?

[Unidentified Co-host]

So.

[Michael Wolff]

I can't tolerate that. This is a humiliation.

[Unidentified Co-host]

So let's talk a little bit about where is Tucker Carlson on this? Because this has gone from being one of those fringe conversations to suddenly the big MAGA voices, Megyn Kelly, Tucker Carlson, Candace Owens, are now discussing this.

[Michael Wolff]

Nick Fuentes, very important.

[Unidentified Co-host]

Nick Fuentes, who's gone on a tirade about Erica Kirk saying that, you know, nothing was normal about the way she behaved at that memorial. He was saying that there was something strange and odd about the whole thing, and he wasn't buying it. But Tucker is one of the foremost voices in this community. You've known him for years. You've known Tucker for years. I mean, I remember him when he was on MSNBC as a contributor when I first moved to America. Where is he on all this now?

[Michael Wolff]

Well, he's a central part of it, and I have known him and I've liked Tucker and we've had a longa long relationship, you know, over 25 years, basically. And I've spent time talking to Tucker about many of these issues, not directly about Charlie Kirk, but aboutcertainly about his relationship to Trump and his relationship to. To evangelicals. And I'm pretty well versed in Tuckerism.

[Unidentified Co-host]

Is Tucker a Christian nationalist, which is this movement that's emerging out of Charlie Kirk's death?

[Michael Wolff]

I think he is aligning himself with Christian nationalism, and we should define that because it's actually in the process of being defined, this notion that really never existed or existed only on the fringe and now has come, is moving into the center, into a MAGA again, another pillar of the MAGA movement. But I think you should see. Let's look at Tucker and his representative in this way as someone thinking about what comes after Donald Trump.

[Unidentified Co-host]

Oh, okay.

[Michael Wolff]

And Tucker may, you know, Tucker has political ambitions. I mean, I've spoken to him at length about this. Whether he will ultimately run for something.

[Unidentified Co-host]

Do you mean president?

[Michael Wolff]

Yes, I mean, well, political ambitions.

[Unidentified Co-host]

Yes, but including would be more interesting than what he's doing.

[Michael Wolff]

Including running for president.

[Unidentified Co-host]

Yes, only meaning that it's hard to imagine that being a senator or being a governor would be as interesting or certainly as lucrative as what he's doing now.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, but never say never. As one. You know, Tucker is still a relatively young man were he to suddenly think, I have a political future. How you would triangulate, what are you.

[Unidentified Co-host]

Going to say to getting there?

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, nobody wants to be a congressman. They all want to be president.

[Unidentified Co-host]

So what does the senator say to himself when he looks in the mirror? Good morning, Mr. President, or good morning, Mrs. President. I should throw in there, too.

[Michael Wolff]

So, anyway, so Tucker is looking at this, at the field of play, and one of the things that if you're Tucker Carlson or anyone else with designs, you have to look at J.D. vance.

[Unidentified Co-host]

J.D. vance very quickly moved into that space.

[Michael Wolff]

J.D. vance is obviously, in terms of the Republican nomination in 2028, the frontrunner. He has all of the advantages given to a vice president, and perhaps. And perhaps given his youth and his financial backers, perhaps more. So then the question is going to be how do you. And he also will likely have the support of Donald Trump.

[Unidentified Co-host]

Will he, though?

[Michael Wolff]

Donald Trump is.

[Unidentified Co-host]

I mean, I often say that's a mixed bag.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes. And Donald Trump poisoned chalice. Donald Trump is, as we know, a bitch. So we don't know what he will do. But let's just assume at this point.

[Unidentified Co-host]

And I would like to point out that on previous podcasts you have seen, specifically said the last thing Donald Trump wants is to be followed by a Republican.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. No, no. He will undermine whoever it is.

[Unidentified Co-host]

Exactly, exactly, exactly.

[Michael Wolff]

But therefore. But if you're looking, if you're looking toward that nomination, you got to say, well, how do we. How do we. What's the edge on J.D. vance? And if you triangulate Vance to be a. To be on the wrong side of Charlie Kirk. So let's reconfigure this here. That the mantle that you want is not the Donald Trump. Donald Trump's mantle, it's Charlie Kirk's mantle.

[Unidentified Co-host]

Michael, shut up. We're just gonna take a break for our ads.

[Michael Wolff]

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[Michael Wolff]

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I just let it go.

[Michael Wolff]

Wish I would stop thinking so much.

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[Michael Wolff]

We're back discussing the breakdown in the Maga movement.

[Unidentified Co-host]

Let us not forget that J.D. vance flew Charlie Kirk's coffin back from the University of Utah, the hospital in Utah where Charlie was treated to Arizona where he lived Ushevance and that will.

[Michael Wolff]

Shortly, if it has not already become.

[Unidentified Co-host]

Part of the copyright part of the conspiracy. There was no coffin. It wasn't true. It wasn't Charlie in there exactly. But they had ushavants descending the stairs of Air Force Two with Erica Kirk. They were holding hands. Erica Kirk, I think Usha Vance was the only person that got a shout out apart from Donald Trump and Charlie in the 30 minute speech that Erica.

[Michael Wolff]

Kirk gave because they are co conspirators. Of course.

[Unidentified Co-host]

Of course, of course. So can I raise one thing here which I find interesting about Charlie Kirk is that the way he was referred to at the memorial was almost as if he were an orphan. Where are Charlie Kirk's parents? I mean, who are Charlie Kirk's parents now?

[Michael Wolff]

You're part of the conference?

[Unidentified Co-host]

Well, I'm a part of the. But I'm fascinated that Erica didn't give them a shout out during her speech, which I thought was impressive, I thought would stand up 11 days after your husband's been murdered. Very impressive nonetheless, to me it was very odd that you didn't mention his parents who have lost a son. You don't mention his sister.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, she was the sleeper agent put in to separate Charlie Kirk from his family and from his family. So therefore, obviously we are, we are not meant, we've disappeared them.

[Unidentified Co-host]

I have never read Lord of the Rings, but I feel like all these conspiracy theory people have read Lord of the Rings and that's the fundamental thing, that it's the sort of fertile territory for these wild conspiracy theories.

[Michael Wolff]

But just, but look at this on a, I mean, again, and I will say not so, but look at this as on the political playing field. And the political playing field is, is looking for the MAGA movement post Trump.

[Unidentified Co-host]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

Someone to lead the MAGA movement who is not J.D. vance, to separate it from Trump, basically. And so among the things that you have now, you have Epstein, the MAGA people are obviously rabid on the Epstein issue. Now you have, you have the Charlie Kirk issue, the COVID up of St. Charlie's murder, and also you now have, which you have never had before, this breach on Israel. And these are major things and they are a breach, a serious breach against, with Donald Trump.

[Unidentified Co-host]

So if you're inside Donald Trump's head, where you have spent a lot of time and I'm frantically trying to catch up, what is he thinking about this and how does he outmaneuver these conspiracies.

[Michael Wolff]

You know, I mean, I think that he is. I'm not sure he has his head around this yet. I mean, I really think that this is pretty new at this point, and I think it's kind of bewildering. So what happens? I mean, there was a, you know, recently a call from Tablet magazine. Tablet magazine is a conservative Jewish magazine. Very, quite right wing, very much on the. On the Trump side, and of course, veryvery much on the Israeli side. And they're calling for, Let' slet's cut off Tucker Carlson. Let's eliminate him from the.

[Unidentified Co-host]

And what does it mean?

[Michael Wolff]

Let's cut off from the true believers.

[Unidentified Co-host]

But how can they cut him off? What does it mean?

[Michael Wolff]

Well, they can't, but nevertheless. But I mean, what they're saying is if you are a. They're just setting up a showdown. If you're a real Trumper, a true Trumper, you can't be a true believer. Yes. And so again, we're just seeing these two sides of an emerging conflict.

[Unidentified Co-host]

And Megyn Kelly did an interesting podcast where she was talking about Charlie Kirk and some of his more conservative Jewish funders who had been in at the beginning of Turning Point usa. Charlie Kirk's organization had, as I think Charlie was spending more time on college campuses and understanding that there was less support for Israel than traditional, than traditionally because of Gaza. He was coming under pressure from them. And there was in fact, a sort of summit at Bill Ackman's home.

[Michael Wolff]

Come to Jesus.

[Unidentified Co-host]

How do we describe his eyebrows? The caterpillar eyebrowed financier who somehow got dragged into all this, where some people who were there said that Charlie Kirk was being intimidated by people to toe the Israel line and he wanted more freedom. And Bill Ackman had brought people together in his lovely Hamptons home to discuss this. And then afterwards, he had to come out. Bill Ackman had to come out and put out a tweet saying, actually, I didn't try to intimidate Charlie. I would never do that. But nevertheless, Charlie felt that.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. No, again, what we have here is the makings of a serious breach in the Trump base. I mean, that's what's significant about this.

[Unidentified Co-host]

So fascinating to see how he dodges it or keeps the bull moving down the road.

[Michael Wolff]

And let's come back to this Christian nationalist thing, because.

[Unidentified Co-host]

So Christian nationalism is separate to evangelism.

[Michael Wolff]

Okay. I mean, obviously there's a crossover, but the evangelicals have traditionally been not all that interested in politics. They've really only had one central issue and that's abortion. The Christian nationalists have a whole set of. They have a wide political agenda, including, I mean, including family values.

[Unidentified Co-host]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

Get married young agenda, but also a foreign policy agenda and also an agenda that has to do with equity, with the whole, I mean, essentially a very conservative view of individual rights.

[Unidentified Co-host]

And it's not a globalist foreign policy outlook. It's an America for first. It's a sort of essentially isolationist.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes, but that becomes actually a very meaningful foreign policy view and a view very much antagonistic to the Trump White House. And it is. Let's go. I mean, let's not avoid the question. It is fundamentally, I mean, there's a reason it is called Christian nationalism. It's a white movement. It's tinged with all kinds of racial or racist undertones and overtones. And it is Christian nationalism necessarily anti Semitic.

[Unidentified Co-host]

So if I'm Donald Trump, am I thinking, how does this impact my development on the Gaza Riviera that Tony Blair is going to contract manage for me? Is Tony Blair going to be basically the general contractor of Gaza?

[Michael Wolff]

I mean, and also Trump's relationship with Netanyahu, which could not be by all appearances closer. And whereas the Christian nationalists have now are, you know, to them, Netanyahu is genocidal, a word that they now use and a war criminal. So I don't know. I mean, this is a pretty serious breach.

[Unidentified Co-host]

It's extremely interesting. Are we becoming conspiracy theorists here? It's very hard not to go down the.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, no, we're just analyzing the politics of this. This is ridiculous. It's not. So everything they're saying about Charlie Kirk and who murdered Charlie Kirk and why is just cray.

[Unidentified Co-host]

If you've just joined us, we think it's cray.

[Michael Wolff]

So that's. But that doesn't matter. This is just as most conspiracy theories are, it has a different purpose than the truth.

[Unidentified Co-host]

Right.

[Michael Wolff]

And its purpose there is to take Charlie Kirk. It's a fight over the body of Charlie Kirk, effectively. And Charlie Kirk has been, partly because of the Trump White House has been built up to be this, you know, the baby Jesus of the MAGA movies.

[Unidentified Co-host]

Well, and Trump's successor, Right. I mean, a lot of people saying, oh, he was going to be Trump's successor. I mean, he wasn't quite old enough. But I mean, Trump was saying, oh, he would have been president.

[Michael Wolff]

Well, whatever. He was the baby Jesus, the future, the savior, the whatever. And now the question is, who inherits that mantle? Who is the real. Who would Charlie Kirk have bestowed his blessings on? So you know, and it's interesting that, I mean, Charlie Kirk, you know, much of what Charlie Kirk was about was a religious movement masked as a political movement. But now this really becomes a religious issue. He's the, you know, he is the Jesus figure that people are fighting over. Who is the real believer, the true loyalist to Charlie Kirk, not to Donald Trump. And that's the interesting thing at this point.

[Unidentified Co-host]

Michael, hold on. We're just going to take a break for these messages.

[Michael Wolff]

Here we go.

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[Michael Wolff]

Did I talk too much?

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[Michael Wolff]

I wish I would stop thinking so much.

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[Michael Wolff]

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[Michael Wolff]

We're back talking about who will inherit the mantle of Charlie Kirk and how.

[Unidentified Co-host]

Do Christian nationalists, who certainly, as Charlie Kirk would say it, you know, get married early, if you're a man, be a spiritual leader to your family, have lots of children. I mean, many of the values he was espousing are traditional American values. How do Christian nationalists square Donald Trump's own very complicated position past with women?

[Michael Wolff]

Well, that goes, too. And I think that that goes to many of the Epstein questions. You know, I mean, much of Donald Trump's political career is a. Is a flight from a lifetime of sexual malfeasance. And that's not just Epstein, but it's Grant.

[Unidentified Co-host]

That's the 20 women, 28 women that have accused him of sexual abuse over the years.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. And grabbed them by the pussy. And E. Jean Carroll. And again and again and again and again. Plus Epstein. And Epstein is actually probably the deepest, darkest pool on this. You know, Trump said recently in frustration about this ongoing Epstein thing, you know, that Palm beach in the the 90s was a different time.

[Unidentified Co-host]

Was that where they shared that wonderful secret?

[Michael Wolff]

I'll say it was a different time. Or as Epstein used to say, Palm beach in the 90s was crazy.

[Unidentified Co-host]

And that's where they had their wonderful secret that Donald Trump wrote in the birthday letter. Of course, he didn't really write it. Someone else. Of all the birthday letters, his was the only hoax birthday letter.

[Michael Wolff]

So this is, you know, all of these issues are now converging in. Let's think of the right word. I was going to say antipathy to Donald Trump on the MAGA side, but I don't think that's it. It is not. It is really just a recognition that the lame duck period has begun and someone circling, someone will replace Donald Trump. The MAGA movement will now transition into something else. And everybody is trying to figure out what that is. With Charlie Kirk now, a piece of.

[Unidentified Co-host]

That, a useful piece, another figure from the grave. I mean, Jeffrey Epstein still having an impact from the grave. Charlie Kirk having more of an impact. Impact from the grave.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah. No, I mean, dead people are very valuable, especially to conspiracies and also to politics, because they don't talk back.

[Unidentified Co-host]

Well, we talk back. We talk back. Gosh, there's a lot to think of there. But what is fascinating is this idea that a post Trump future is now.

[Michael Wolff]

Underway very much in the strands of this. I mean, this Christian nationalism is a real interesting and scary development. And the fight over Charlie Kirk is kind of a really interesting Family feud.

[Unidentified Co-host]

Well, and completely unexpected, too, because of the awful manner of his death, something that one couldn't have predicted, as is so much in Donald Trump's reign.

[Michael Wolff]

No. And this cleaves so cleanly. This is the Trump administration has offered a very clear, very concise narrative for what happened here. And the other side is now saying completely a lie.

[Unidentified Co-host]

All right, Michael, we'll be back on Thursday to discuss more how this story develops. Will Donald Trump have pardoned Ghislaine Maxwell by Thursday, yes or no? Yes or no, sir? I think it's too soon. Isn't it too soon?

[Michael Wolff]

No, it's, yeah, as I said, six months. Six to nine months.

[Unidentified Co-host]

Yeah, six to nine months. If you have been. Thank you for joining us. Don't forget to go to wherever you get your podcasts and subscribe to the Daily Beast. You can become a member of the Daily Beast community. And we're independent media, so we appreciate your support. And we like the comments, don't we?

[Michael Wolff]

Well, we study them.

[Unidentified Co-host]

We do. We study them. We devour the comments. We share the comments. We disagree with some of the comments. And we've got a few that we're going to address today. Here is a Good one from Beth3471. Assuming Trump does not have a third term, good conversation for us today because we're already talking about a post Trump future. What does he do next?

[Michael Wolff]

I can answer that.

[Unidentified Co-host]

Go ahead.

[Michael Wolff]

He returns to Mar A Lago, still the king of the Republican Party, and he does exactly what he did the last time he returned to Mar a Lago, which among other things, includes a lot of golf.

[Unidentified Co-host]

But the last time he was at Mar a Lago, he was also plotting to come back to the White House. Was there a way he could do that?

[Michael Wolff]

Well, I don't think that that really matters. Remember, the thing about Donald Trump is not that he should be the president, it's that he should be Donald Trump. So as long as he is in his own mind and in the mind of the base Donald Trump, he's a happy man. And does that mean. Yes, he will conduct himself as the once and future president until he dies?

[Unidentified Co-host]

Well, the always president. All right, here's another question from Peter Sell, 1796. Aside from all things abstinence and or Putin, is there another person or entity which makes him paranoid or perhaps fearful?

[Michael Wolff]

His wife.

[Unidentified Co-host]

I was just gonna, I've, we've, we've seen Melania a little bit more recently. Is that significant? I mean, she was at the Windsor Castle.

[Michael Wolff]

I, I don't think she's.

[Unidentified Co-host]

She was at the UN she was at Windsor Castle. She got stuck on the elevator with him.

[Michael Wolff]

Yeah, well, I. I don't think they're rekindling.

[Unidentified Co-host]

Okay, they're not rekindling. They're not rekindling because we know that Barron has, in theory, gone down to the NYU campus in D.C. right. And we know that she likes to be near Barron. So is she there, or do you think she's still in Trump Tower?

[Michael Wolff]

Well, she still is based here, yes. She's not in the White House.

[Unidentified Co-host]

She's not in the White House. Okay. And as you say, when she turns up at the White House, people treat her as a guest. She's probably got to sign in. Here's a good question from Kristen Rice Simonson. Michael, question. To what extent does Trump's chronic lack of sleep affect his mental capabilities? Are the Adderall rumors from the past true?

[Michael Wolff]

You know, I had. And I would have to look back on one of my books which cites a specific drug that he's on a relatively low dosage upper called diethylene propion. That is, according to Jeffrey Epstein.

[Unidentified Co-host]

Interesting. A low dosage upper.

[Michael Wolff]

Yes, but which I think is a factor. Is the sleep a factor? You know, I don't know.

[Unidentified Co-host]

It's all a factor.

[Michael Wolff]

Old people need less sleep.

[Unidentified Co-host]

Do they need less sleep?

[Michael Wolff]

They do. They do.

[Unidentified Co-host]

Do you think he might be milking the health interest to distract from other things?

[Michael Wolff]

No, I think actually that the interest in his health is annoying to him.

[Unidentified Co-host]

I mean, why else would he wear makeup on his used to.

[Michael Wolff]

I think it's annoying to him because it could be true. And whatever, it diminishes his authority.

[Unidentified Co-host]

Okay, we'll be back with more comments on Thursday, but thank you for sending them in. Don't forget to and again, join the Daily Beast community where you get all sorts of extra, extra extras. Extra, extra, extra extras. Yeah. Okay. Michael Wolf, fare thee well.

[Michael Wolff]

Joanna Coles.

[Unidentified Co-host]

Don't forget to be beast. And a big thank you to our bee beast level members, Karen White, Heidi.

[Michael Wolff]

Riley, Connie Rutherford, Sharon Shipley, Andrea Hodel. Hodel. Hodel. I like, prefer Hodel and free. Dc. Thank you.

[Unidentified Co-host]

And do you want to thank our production team?

[Michael Wolff]

Devin, Anna.

[Unidentified Co-host]

Jessie.

[Michael Wolff]

Jessie. Thank you from the bottom of my heart.

[Unidentified Co-host]

Excellent.

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[Michael Wolff]

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[Unidentified Co-host]

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[Michael Wolff]

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[Unidentified Co-host]

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[Michael Wolff]

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