Joanna (2:51)

Michael Joanna, where do we Begin what is inside Trump's head. For those who haven't listened to this podcast before, can you give them a quick explanation of what we're doing in here? Amid all the gray matter, it's my.

Michael Wolff (3:08)

Contention that nothing matters in American politics anymore. But. But that which pops into Trump's head at any given moment, not with any consistency, motive or plan, it's effectively what he gets up with in the morning, that there's nothing more important to understanding what's going on than to understand the electrical caprices that go through Trump's head.

Joanna (3:48)

The electrical caprices that go through Trump's head. Well, I'm feeling the aftershocks of his visit with Xi Jinping. We need to discuss that. We need to discuss his crazy truth social that he sent out, which made no sense and was, as many people pointed out, the 2025 version of Covefe, which was fun, fun to have back. It's always nice to have a previous season to lean on. And of course, as he's left, it's raining today in New York. I know it's raining in the Hamptons where you are. And I wonder if it's raining on that pile of rubble that is still there that used to be the East Wing.

Michael Wolff (4:33)

Let's go to that. Because I've been obsessed, as I think many Americans are, with the fact that he has torn down the east wing of the White House in East Wing, which we will shortly not remember, because it's gone to be replaced by. By this mammoth ballroom. This. We don't even know what this is. This. This carbuncle on the nose of an.

Joanna (5:03)

Old friend, but which I think we should just point out the reference to that, because that's what King Charles said when he was Prince Charles, for famous supporter of classical architecture, about the National Gallery, when they were going to put on a modern addition. And in fact, he persuaded the architects.

Michael Wolff (5:21)

Which they did not.

Joanna (5:21)

Which they did not. Right. So now it doesn't look like a carbuncle. It looks like a deep plane facelift.

Michael Wolff (5:27)

So, yeah, so now they're going to attach a wedding mill to the, to.

Joanna (5:31)

The White House, but an entertaining space.

Michael Wolff (5:34)

But what I've been thinking, having done that, done the unthinkable, the, in any other administration, the undoable. What if he were to tear down the West Wing? And why not? I mean, the West Wing, for. For people who have never been there is. Is. Is actually kind of startling because it is small, a warren of small offices. It always reminds me of a kind of a college Admissions Center.

Joanna (6:08)

It's surprisingly unground for even for the White House, which as we know, is deliberately modest.

Michael Wolff (6:15)

Right. And so, so for this figure, Trump, a figure of, of nothing so much as pure grandiosity. It must feel dispiriting to show up there every day. Even the Oval Office is, is, is small. And, and you know, I think a lot of people think about from the television show the West Wing, and I have been in both the actual West Wing, where I've spent quite a bit of time, and once on the set of the show West Wing, and this set was so much grander than the actual West Wing itself. And the West Wing is kind of, I mean, it's dumpy. And many of the, many of the, of the offices have just a pure functional government feel. Nothing nothing to suggest, as Trump obviously wants it to be suggested, that he is the grandest, most powerful historical being of all time.

Joanna (7:31)

Of all time. Of all time.

Michael Wolff (7:34)

So why not, why not Trump just say, well, we're going to tear this down. We have, we have corporate contributors going to build, we're going to build the West Wing as it, as it should look or as it, as it no doubt looks in his head as it should look.

Joanna (7:53)

And perhaps he can have a throne behind the Resolute desk.

Michael Wolff (7:56)

Yeah, you know, I mean, I mean, and you know, and I say this because a, it makes sense for him to do this, but also because we're in this moment. I mean, we're, again, it's one of those things that we would think that could, he could never do that. He would never do that. There are some things that are, that are certainly a step too far, but we would have said that last week about the East Wing itself. And again, this is all, we're all in the land of metaphors here. He can take the wrecking ball to the East Wing. He can take the wrecking ball to democracy. So can he take the wrecking ball to the West Wing and almost entirely replace the idea that we have of the presidency of the United States of the permanence of that. And remember, the point about the permanence here is that he is not permanent. You're just a renter, a borrower, and which I think is difficult for him and irritating for him. And, and he something he may decide he is not going to be that he is going to be the permanent person. So, and it will be within the White House, you know, the expect, I mean, I, I, I think, I don't know if this is public or, or not, but certainly the expectation Is that, that the ballroom will be called the Trump. Who can doubt that? The ambition is for this, for the White House itself to be called the Trump White House. So we'll do the East Wing, we'll do the West Wing, and then we'll do the, the whole place.

Joanna (9:48)

Yeah, it's very interesting. And of course, going back to his roots as a television producer, he's both a builder and a television producer. And the reason that the Oval Office is so iconic is because you see it in television shows and movies, usually about the end of the world. And actually, I remember to your point about being on the West Wing set and having obviously been in the Oval Office, I remember taking some of the cast of Scandal, which is set obviously Tony Goldwyn plays the president, taking them the weekend of the White House Correspondents Dinner to the White House. And many of them had never even been to Washington before. And they were like, oh, my goodness, this is the river where we pulled the body out of. This is where, you know, Kerry Washington has the affair with the president. And it sort of comes alive on television and in popular media in a way that when you see it in real life, it is very flat. And your point about Donald Trump being disappointed by it, especially second time round, is a really good one. And he's done his best. He's refurbished the Oval Office with as much gold as he could muster. But why not refurbish the whole of the West Wing, indeed, the whole place.

Michael Wolff (11:05)

And what he has done there, I mean, he basically says this is a shithole. And I had to gold leaf everything here and change the frames on the portraits. And so why not? If you begin with that thesis, this is unworthy. This does not reflect the kind of power you want it to reflect. I mean, power Donald Trump style. Why wouldn't you go further?

Joanna (11:36)

Also, he could have it obviously sponsored by people. Perhaps the Qataris could do the West Wing for us, or the Chinese could do the West Wing for us. Especially now we've managed to get a truce for a year in rare earths. Perhaps he could build it from rare earths.

Michael Wolff (11:54)

Let's go to China. Because I think that is the big story of the moment. In the big story, which is a. Is going to be lost because Trump is going to come back to the US and pronounce this as, this as a major, as a major accomplishment, a major victory. That he's a, he's a. The foreign policy genius of all time is that it's a complete defeat, a total loss. You know, he, he, he went to effective war or cold war against China and with, you know, layering tariff after tariff, bring China to its knees. And all that he has succeeded in doing after 10 months is basically restoring where we were, to getting back to where we were before he began this. The Chinese outplayed him. They won. He gets nothing.

Joanna (12:58)

And the Taiwanese get less than nothing because he's sort of pulling back on support for them, too.

Michael Wolff (13:05)

Yeah, no, I, I mean, this is, this is, this is, this is a pure defeat. And I, I wonder again, I mean, this is for the Democrats. This ought to be something that, I mean, you know, the, this is a gift to them. Here is, here is Donald Trump in ab. Project failure. What will they do with this? How do they, how do, how do they make that clear to the American people with, at the same time, Trump going to come back and he's going to declare this. Oh, in incredible America. So, so I, I think it's just important to, to, to register. You got to hold on to these, these certain moments because you're going to lose them because Trump is so good at this. But let's hold on to this. He went into this, the major foreign policy project of the second Trump administration, actually of the first Trump administration, too. One of the animating premises of the Trump presidency, China bad, America good. We have to take back everything that China has taken from us, et cetera, et cetera, all of that. And what we have come to yesterday is nothing, literally nothing. China gets everything that it wants. The United States gets nothing.

Joanna (14:41)

Well, and almost even worse than nothing, because it feels more precarious now. We've got a year, right, with a sort of uneasy truce. I would have thought this would be very good news for Democrats in the heartland, where farmers are no longer able to sell their soy beans to China. Maybe now they will. But it never dawned on Donald Trump that the Chinese would be able to buy soybeans from other countries, which they've started doing.

Michael Wolff (15:07)

And the same deal for the, for the farmers goes as it was before this, before the Trump administration began. So we've gotten nothing. We're just returned back to square, I think a literal square one.

Joanna (15:24)

Well, and he comes back to, I think, day 30 of a government shutdown. He comes back to rising prices, which even he admitted on the plane on the way out there. And he comes back to a delay in the inevitable, which is Congress asking for him to release the Epstein files.

Michael Wolff (15:44)

Right. Which will continue on certainly as long as the government is closed for business. And then we can, we, we. Then we should talk about what happens after that. But I want to go back there to, to your, you know, your vivid picture of a, of a presidency in crisis. I would, I would say. And, and, and that crisis is reflected in the latest polls, which are terrible.

Joanna (16:15)

The latest polls, absolutely terrible for him. But again, he's, he's saying my polls are fantastic. They've never been, been better polls. I'm polling, people love me. There's no indication actually that people are really loving him right now.

Michael Wolff (16:30)

No. And, and again, I, you know, I think, I think we should, we should mark this because it, it is again, one of the things we know, the reality. There's the reality the polls are terrible. There is the Trump version of reality, which is the opposite of actual reality.

Joanna (16:46)

Right.

Michael Wolff (16:46)

And that will happen with China also. And the thing about Trump's, Trump's depiction of the thing about Trump's reality is that it's remarkably strong. Trump's reality is the reality that seems most often to prevail. So what's that about? And we can go back into his head because understand what that does to his, to his head, which is to say I don't have to deal with, with, with reality or reality, as has been confirmed again and again and again, is exactly what I want it to be. And, and you know, and that works. I mean, that's the, that's the utterly confusing thing about life in the Trump era, in Trump's Trump's time is this. You know, on the campaign, during the campaign, they, they used to talk about, within the campaign, about, about the two screen reality. There would be what, what you saw, what you knew was actually happening and then this reality that, that, that Trump willed into being and that was, and many of the people on the campaign were as flabbergasted as anybody else that, that's the reality. The reality that was not the reality came nearly always to prevail.

Joanna (18:24)

Is it not the real advent in America, which we haven't seen for at least 80 years, I suppose, of strongman government? Just as he enacts his foreign policy for America through what he claims are his brilliant personal relationships, it's his force of personality which provides a different reality. And you can see this emerging. I know you've been reading up about the Weimar Republic and the rise of Adolf Hitler, and I've been doing a bit of reading about Max Weber and the whole idea of the charismatic leader and what happens when they're gone and the power of the charismatic leader, which is what we have in Trump and in a way we really haven't seen here for 89. I mean, when was the last one?

Michael Wolff (19:11)

We have never seen anything quite like this.

Joanna (19:14)

Well, partly because it's amplified by social media and television and pre sort of Second World War, that wasn't a thing. So it's slightly, you're not judging apples with apples. But, you know, you think of people like Andrew, Andrew Jackson.

Michael Wolff (19:31)

I disagree with this. I mean, we've had strong men throughout history. Actually, there have been more strong men leaders than there have been Democratic leaders. We just have in U.S. history. The accomplishment of U.S. history is that we have leaned toward Democratic leaders rather than particular strong men. And in American democracy, leaders don't last very long either. So it's kind of hard to be a strong man when you have, you know, when you're, as we say, just renting the office, squatting in the office.

Joanna (20:11)

I prefer to think of him as squatting. But I think what Donald Trump is doing is actually what strongmen do, isn't it? Which is he's breaking all the rules. He's bombing random boats in seas where we've got no business bombing boats. And he doesn't appear to have any evidence for why he's doing it, which seems to me a lesson straight from Duterte in the Philippines. I mean, that's what he did.

Michael Wolff (20:36)

I want to make a distinction here because you, you know, I mean, strong, strong men are often highly strategic, highly political. They have a plan with that which they are executing on. I think it's very, very, very difficult to find the plan here. What is the strategy? I mean, in fact, the strategy seems so often to be shooting yourself in the foot. You know, let's have loopy tariffs which, which then have to be reversed. You know, let's tear down the East Wing. You do you think that's going to be popular? And a lot of people are going to, are going to have photographs, pictures, visual evidence of the wrecking ball. You know, as, as we've just just discussed a, you know, a long campaign to bring China to his, to its knees. And who's on his knees but Donald Trump.

Joanna (21:32)

But last week we spent some time talking about Miller and people around Stephen Miller and Stephen Miller himself will probably say that his plan for deportations is certainly underway and that's been effective.

Michael Wolff (21:45)

Well, I don't know if that's, if, if, if that has been effective. One of the, the, the, the products of that is again, this visual evidence. So you have taken, let, I mean, let's, let's look at this. You take an issue that is Popular with the American people in the American people have deep doubts about immigration. Donald Trump basically has fueled his political career on that.

Joanna (22:14)

Well, they have deep doubts about illegal immigration, right?

Michael Wolff (22:17)

Yes, theoretically. But it may be other aspects of this too. And we don't have to go there. We know that Trump has harnessed a popular issue here, but having done that, then he goes out with, with, you know, men in black and masks and mugging people and doing what, what clearly appears everything possible to turn a popular issue into a highly unpopular issue, which is exactly what is happening now. That does not seem to me like a plan, a strategy that seems to me like somebody who, who is A, who doesn't know what he's doing and B, who is, who is, who accepts anything in the moment.

Joanna (23:11)

So he's just rolling from crisis to crisis, largely which he's created. He gets up the next day and it's literally, it's like a screenwriter. It's like, where does the plot twist take us?

Michael Wolff (23:22)

Now the confounding thing is that you can enumerate all of these failures and then, you know, a week later they're gone and no one remembers them. And a week later, a week from now, we will, we can pronounce today the China, the China gambit, the China Cold War has been utterly lost by the United States. So pronounce that today. But two weeks from now we won't remember that.

Joanna (23:49)

And also he'll come back and say it was a huge victory and that's what people will cleave to because they, they want things to, to work.

Michael Wolff (23:57)

I don't think people want things necessarily to work. And, and, and usually in a democracy there is, there is half of the, you know, a part of the republic that's, or a part of the governing mechanism that is there to remind people this doesn't work. This was a failure. That's what democracy is supposed, is supposed to, supposed to be. That's what the Democrats are supposed to do. And, and so combined with his enormous kind of staggering ability to, to impose his own reality is the Democrats inability, inability to impose theirs or to offer a challenge, an alternative to his reality.

Joanna (24:44)

Well, Polymarket at the moment has the race for the New Jersey and the Virginia governors, certainly with the Democrats in the lead, there may be a sort of silent revolution of people just planning to go to the ballot box. We know in New York, for example, that early voting is five times the number of people have registered for or have early voted compared to the last election.

Michael Wolff (25:10)

Okay, I'll. Any boat in a storm but you're.

Joanna (25:16)

Determined to be grumpy this morning. I think it's because the weather's turned.

Michael Wolff (25:20)

But I, I've done this before. I remember, you know, in, in 2018, you know, an astounding loss for, for, for, for Trump, you know, and again and again we have, we have, we have seen those things in 2020, obviously, he was thrown out of the White House. And it doesn't, somehow, it doesn't seem, it doesn't stick. He comes back and that's again, going inside Trump's head. All of this thing. He should, in a normal head would say, okay, this is, you know, you know, I've been, I've been, I got to pay attention to this. This wasn't good. This failed. This, this is, this is, this is a bad news situation. China is bad news. It looks like it could be that the midterms are going to be bad news. I should, I have to respond to this. I have to, I have to change my path. Which he doesn't. And he just, again, whatever failure there is, he manages to pronounce as victory and then convince an enormous number of people against all evidence. Victory. And let's go to our sponsors.

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Joanna (29:03)

And we're back inside Trump's head. Gavin Newsom claimed that the truth social that Trump posted, which appeared to say south and then it said car or cared. And he was probably trying to, in all fairness, post South Korea, but he managed to use the word. He managed to use the letter D several times. Governor Newsom tweeted out, oh, the D is for demented. Do you think his health is strong? I mean, we know he's got swollen ankles, which can't have improved flying back and forth across Asia. We know he's got unsightly bruises on his hands which suggest he's got endless IV treatments going in there. He told us that he'd found a kindergarten test that was supposed to test his own mental reflexes. Quite difficult, but he'd managed to pass it perfectly. And he then told us that he'd had an mri, which is unusual. So do we think he's in decent health or do we think this is just symptomatic of him rolling towards an inevitable dementia?

Michael Wolff (30:17)

I don't know. And I always think it's. One should be careful on these things both because as you find yourself thinking that death is going to be your savior here, rather than having to organize against this person. But I also feel that he has always been, you know, that there is always. That he's insane. That has nothing to do with dementia. Let's separate those two things.

Joanna (30:54)

But is it a contained insanity which, with the ravages of old age which come for all of us, we can't fight biology are made worse.

Michael Wolff (31:05)

It's always been worse. I mean, it's been bad. In other words, let's look at this. What is insanity? If. If, if an inability to appreciate, understand, appreciate and perceive reality.

Joanna (31:19)

I can't believe we haven't even talked about his other threat, which is that America should start testing nuclear again. It's unclear what we're testing. He. He said, oh, the Russians and the Chinese, they're always testing. We need to be tested, testing again. And he's told them, he's told the Pentagon to get on with it. What could possibly go wrong with Pete Hegseth in charge?

Michael Wolff (31:39)

I think it's one of those things. It is probably functionally meaningless, and it is. In a moment of frustration, the Chinese have won. I mean, I think that is probably his perception and appreciation that this has gone incredibly sideways with the Chinese. What do I have left? What leverage do I have left? None of the leverage I said that would bring China to its knees has done it. It's actually done the opposite. They have. They have. They have proven to have more leverage than we do. So. So let's bomb them.

Joanna (32:22)

Yeah. Or at least let's threaten to bomb them. And let's remind everybody that we have more nuclear weapons. Russia is second, according to Donald Trump, and then China is five years away from being equal.

Michael Wolff (32:35)

Yeah. So this was just a gasp for him.

Joanna (32:39)

I just imagined Pete Hegseth waking up to that news that he was going to have to scramble all those fat generals that he'd been telling off two weeks ago and say, now you've got to start firing some nuclear tests. Okay. So the other thing I thought seemed very clear on this trip was the glaring absence of the first lady and how lonely and alone Donald Trump appeared to be, especially when he was repeatedly coming down the steps from Air Force One.

Michael Wolff (33:13)

I don't think it's a glaring absence since she is largely never there.

Joanna (33:17)

Well, she did accompany him to London.

Michael Wolff (33:19)

When you see her, it's more glaring. Oh, there she is.

Joanna (33:24)

Yeah. Surprise. I mean, he looked surprised when she turned up at the rnc. Do you remember in that. In that very vivid red dress. And she sort of snuck up behind him when he was talking, and he seemed completely incredulous, actually, that she'd turned up, but she was with him on the London trip, and he looked nervous that he was going to fall down the steps of Air Force One. And of course, we know that this is what happens to presidents. Gerald Ford did that. He famously fell up the stairs. And he fell down the stairs. Obviously, Biden did, too.

Michael Wolff (33:57)

You would have thought that they. That they would have figured this out.

Joanna (34:01)

Why haven't they figured this out? I've actually just written a column about this.

Michael Wolff (34:04)

I don't know, don't they, don't they have portable elevators on these things that can just go up, you know, your, your whatever it is, the 60ft?

Joanna (34:14)

Well, and certainly, I mean, that's what pop stars do on stage, right? It's how Elton John now appears on stage. He's brought down by a kind of hydraulic lift, because I don't think he wants to stumble on stage, obviously. And you think maybe the Qatari plane will have some sort of glass elevator that drops him.

Michael Wolff (34:34)

I mean, this has bedeviled all presidents.

Joanna (34:37)

So they ought to fix it. They ought to fix it. I mean, and also, if he does have lifts in his shoes, which we remember him being very concerned after he was shot at in Butler, Pennsylvania. Give me, get me my shoes. Where are my shoes? Where are my shoes? My shoes.

Michael Wolff (34:51)

My shoes.

Joanna (34:52)

My shoes. If he is wearing lifts in his shoes, then it makes it more unstable for him coming down the stairs. And we know that he's anxious about it because he alluded to how quickly Barack Obama would sort of bop down the stairs. He sort of danced down the stairs.

Michael Wolff (35:08)

No. Well, it would be, it would be a devastating moment for Trump to fall down the stairs and possibly a fatal moment.

Joanna (35:15)

Well, exactly. I mean, a fall at his age is certainly the fast lane to a whole series of other unfortunate events. So does it. Should he have a companion? If Melania is not going to be around, should he actually have a companion?

Michael Wolff (35:34)

What are you suggesting, Joanna? A dog?

Joanna (35:38)

No, because a dog might pull him down the stairs. Right. That's the other thing that's bad for old people. They get dogs that are too big for them. And then in this is what happened to Liz Smith, the great gossip columnist. She went out, she had a dog, the dog pulled her over in the ice, and it was very, very hard to recover from the fall.

Michael Wolff (35:54)

You know, and Trump is distinctly not a dog person. You know, all other presidents have dogs.

Joanna (35:58)

Right. He's not an animal person. Right. He wouldn't know what to do with an animal. No, I'm suggesting the sort of companion that old ladies used to have.

Michael Wolff (36:07)

You mean, what was old ladies used to. That was called a walker.

Joanna (36:11)

Well, no, I was actually. Well, I mean, he could have a male companion. I mean, he could have a Secret Service walk down the stairs with him, because if he falls, there is no one to catch him.

Michael Wolff (36:21)

What does that mean? He's going to go down the. On the arm of, of a big guy?

Joanna (36:26)

No, the guy just walks one step behind him, ready to lunge to save him if he looks unsteady on his feet.

Michael Wolff (36:33)

Well, that's a, that's a, that's a pretty sight.

Joanna (36:35)

Well, it's better than him bumping all the way down to the bottom of the staircase. I mean, people, older people do have people that, you see them all the time in New York. They're either being wheeled in chairs or they have someone walking at their side to make sure they stay upright.

Michael Wolff (36:52)

What you mean is a nurse, I.

Joanna (36:53)

Mean, a sort of nursing companion, a nurse aide. I mean, a chief of staff can't do this for you. If he falls on Susie Wiles, she's going down, too. We need someone who's stronger, who can clutch him if he goes down. And you think, I mean, there was that extraordinary scene with the Japanese Prime Minister where he carries on walking past the band and the group of soldiers that have been there, and she opens her mouth because he's just sailed straight past them. And you think fondly of Jill Biden, whose arm would slip behind Joe and she would lead him back to where he was supposed to be. There is no one like that for Trump.

Michael Wolff (37:32)

So what you're saying, you're getting at a more fundamental issue and question here. He needs a wife.

Joanna (37:39)

Well, Rupert Murdoch is. How old is he? And he's had five wives, I think, at this point, is it.

Michael Wolff (37:44)

Donald Trump has always said, I could get, you know, if Melania left me, I could easily get another wife.

Joanna (37:50)

Have we thought of him leaving Melania if Melania is not. I mean, certainly it would be a very good spoiler for her documentary that's coming out on Amazon. Well, it's coming out in theaters and then on Amazon in January, coming out.

Michael Wolff (38:02)

On the 30th of January, just internationally.

Joanna (38:06)

Okay. We will have a watch party for people. I think we should. And we will. We'll figure that out somehow so we can all watch it together. But he looks lonely. And Howard Lutnick giving his thumbs up when he comes out of a meeting is not the same as Melania's well tailored arm being available for him to clutch as he walks down the stairs as he did in London.

Michael Wolff (38:30)

Well, this gets to a another question of what's in Trump's head and what is his. What are not just his needs for companionship, but what's his level of interest in companionship of that, of that sort at this point in his life?

Joanna (38:53)

Well, I'm sure he has an interest in staying upright.

Michael Wolff (38:56)

It is hard for me to imagine that his need for companionship is the way is the, is on the level of other people's. Needs for companionship. That is to say, someone to, you know, at, at some level of intimacy. You never feel that with, with, with Donald Trump. You never feel that, that there is a. How would you. An interest and a need for closeness to someone.

Joanna (39:34)

So when he's reaching for Melania's hand, on the rare occasions they're spotted together and he usually is reaching for her hand and sometimes she swats it away as if it was an irritating wasp, and other times she grudgingly holds it. What's going on in his head in that moment?

Michael Wolff (39:50)

I think he's, he's trying. This is, that's for the camera.

Joanna (39:53)

It's all for the camera. So when he's on his own, he's fine being on his own. He doesn't want a companion, doesn't want someone to eat cheese on toast with. He's fine.

Michael Wolff (40:02)

I've always thought this about, about Donald Trump, that Donald Trump is a person without an inner life. That's the true secret of Donald Trump. When he's, when he's alone, he's not, he's not alone. First thing, he'll go out of his way. Not actually, not to be alone, without someone to talk to. So the telephone is, is always, always there and he is always on it. But I just, you know, a man who has been, you know, for the, almost the entirety of his life out in public, courting the public, just, you know, and I just think of those years then. I used to see him whenever I would go out at night in New York. There was always a good chance that you would see, see Donald Trump. I didn't go out that much, but anytime that I would go out, there would be in some, in some room, Donald Trump, like a shark moving through it, surrounded by a couple of beefy guys, looking. What was he looking for? Women, I suppose, or looking for someone he, he knew who then he could have a kind of vapid conversation with. I mean, in that Woody Allen movie, Celebrity, Donald Trump plays himself a soulless celebrity.

Joanna (41:25)

A soulless celebrity. Oh, dear. There I am repeating a sentence of yours which one of our commentators really didn't like. All right, well, the good news is that we have an intuitive who's been watching the show and I'm just going to give her a shout out. Her name is Diane Galway. I am an intuitive, Michael. And you will win the case against Melania. The bad news is that it will take 4 years before it is over. And a lot of BS DT may not even be alive by then. But I do suspect that 2026 is a significant year. Okay, Diane, if you have any more intuitive thoughts, please let us know because I love the idea that we're being watched by intuitive. And I want to know, I want to know more.

Michael Wolff (42:13)

But that is the, of course, the problem with a lawsuit and why lawsuits like this are, are, are filed or why they threaten them, which is that they, that, that even though it's a losing case for them, this goes on and on and on and, and it becomes a kind of noose around everybody's neck except theirs because they have a lot of lawyers and they're playing with house money.

Joanna (42:40)

Well, we have a lot of questions for Melania. Actually, you have mentioned in our last episode that we would start a section for questions for Melania.

Michael Wolff (42:49)

We want to flash this Ask Melania.

Joanna (42:55)

So I've got some questions. I'm going to throw a few of them at you and then you can.

Michael Wolff (42:59)

Decide whether I'm going to ask her those questions or not.

Joanna (43:03)

Yes, absolutely. So one person, Denise Asch B says, I would like to mention to Melania that she received a visa reserved for only extraordinary talents at the time. What talents did she have? Someone else asks Helen A. Seedleck.

Michael Wolff (43:22)

And that's of course, by, just, just by the way, a very, you know, an, an aspect of her biography that, that yes, we should know more about. How did she get into this country, especially given the fact that her husband, the President of the United States, is trying to keep so many people out.

Joanna (43:43)

Well, wasn't it that she was a model of extraordinary talent and exceptional ability? I think it's called a genius visa, isn't it, where you're basically, you're brushing with genius and she was a top model in catalogues. Michael, I hope you're taking the model industry seriously here. Okay, Someone else says, does Melania watch our podcast? Very much doubt it. I'm going to answer that one. I very much doubt it. But who knows? Michael, here's a good question for you. When did Melania start paying taxes on her earnings for modeling? Who did she work for?

Michael Wolff (44:22)

All questions that will certainly be asked. And, and she's not going to have any alternative but to answer. And here's one from our sponsors.

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Joanna (46:50)

And we're back with Michael Wolff discussing everything that's inside Trump's head. But here's another question from Lane. Lanedel Lane Little, I think. Quite hard to pronounce. Wolf. Just straight in there with your first name. I quite like that. Perhaps he's in the services or she's in the services. Wolf, how are you going to find all the people who are friends with Melania in the 90s? I'm sure she's left all those people behind.

Michael Wolff (47:17)

Well, that's what happens in depositions. You get to triangulate that. You get to find one person who opens the door to another person. I mean, it's a lot like what we do in the journalism business, except that as journalists, we don't get to put people under oath, which will be exciting.

Joanna (47:38)

Right, and then we've got a good question here from Margaret Kibble. Actually, several questions. Questions for Melania. What qualifications did you have when you got the Einstein visa? And can we see them? Can we see last year's tax return? Who was your agent when you first got your modeling contract? And an interesting, almost non secretary of a question here. Do you still drive?

Michael Wolff (48:00)

Well, those are all good questions and all logical questions and all inevitable questions, so I think we have a shot at getting exactly those answers. As for driving, well, I find that an interesting question, because I don't drive.

Joanna (48:17)

I was just going to ask that. I don't know how you've managed to survive without driving. All right, and then we have another question here, which is not related to Melania, but it's a good question. What turned Trump against Steve Bannon?

Michael Wolff (48:31)

Do you drive?

Joanna (48:32)

Of course I drive.

Michael Wolff (48:34)

And you didn't have any trouble moving from one side of the road to the other side of the road, being as how you're.

Joanna (48:39)

You mean because I grew up trained to drive on the left and now I drive on the right?

Michael Wolff (48:43)

Exactly.

Joanna (48:44)

No. Except if it's very late at night, sometimes I might think to myself, oh, am I on the right side of the road if I'm tired?

Michael Wolff (48:51)

The Brits seem to make that transition with some ease. Americans never do.

Joanna (48:56)

You know, actually, when American tourists go to London, one of the issues for them is they frequently step in front of cars going the wrong direction. It's the most common form of American accident in London. All right, what did turn Trump against Bannon?

Michael Wolff (49:14)

Me.

Joanna (49:16)

Okay, that's a good answer.

Michael Wolff (49:19)

Bannon started to talk to me at a. In an unfiltered, to say the least way. Why? Just because Bannon can't stop, another person can't stop talking. And then. And then I reported this and. And Trump got angry.

Joanna (49:41)

Just think of the podcast industry. It's just full of people like Steve Bannon and possibly even us who can't stop talking. All right, final question for the day from Sean Duray or Sean. Can the American people file a class action lawsuit against the company who did the demolishing of the East Wing? I think for not having the proper permits and permission to tear down the People's House?

Michael Wolff (50:05)

You know, I don't know the answer.

Joanna (50:06)

To that, and I guess it doesn't really matter because as you've made the point before, once it's demolished, it's Gone, gone, gone. Well, Michael Wolf, we are still working despite the government shutdown. Do you have a prediction? I haven't looked at polymarket on this, but how long do you think it's going go on for? Because we're nearing the record for a government shutdown. I think we've got five more days to go.

Michael Wolff (50:28)

Well, I think they have to at this point, at this point, break the record. And, and I, I'm not sure that the Democrats have an alternative. I don't know what you do here if you're a Democrat and you can do literally nothing. The, I mean, Congress has basically given up its responsibility in the United States government in a very powerful way. And I think we should spend some time talking, talking about this because I've started to think of this as a kind of silent coup. You know, the American Congress, which has a function of checking the power of the president of the United States, that's its function to oversee the president of the United States to correct the president of the United States, to stop the president of the United States. And that has gone away. That doesn't exist anymore. So all power, necessarily meaning all power passes to the president of the United States, which is what one would accomplish in a coup. I want to get rid of other, anyone who challenges me, and that's the job of Congress to challenge the president. But it doesn't do that anymore.

Joanna (51:49)

Well, it doesn't do anything anymore and nor has it for the last month. So you think they need to pass a record just to make a point?

Michael Wolff (51:58)

Well, I think they have, they have to make that point. And then I think, and, and I, I don't know how this, how this, this, this comes to an end. I mean, this is like, I mean, essentially it's like a labor strike, you know, who, who feel the, the most pain, the deepest and the longest. So, and, you know, and that, and that will be the pain. The, the American people will, will feel that pain. But how do they react and who do they blame? I mean, this is, these are, these are the issues here.

Joanna (52:35)

All right. Well, let's talk a little bit more about that on Saturday. The idea of a silent coup and also whether or not not this is the one way that Democrats can actually express their power by refusing to give in on the demands they have for health care.

Michael Wolff (52:52)

Absolutely. No. And, and I think, I mean, I think the, I mean it's, it's, it's interesting. The, we're going to start to see the posted rates on health care on Obamacare that are, that are coming up. And I, I think this is going to be another moment that might be determinative and profound.

Joanna (53:14)

Well, and let's hope we see the rates of how much more money billionaires will make with their substantial tax cut. We must do that at the Beast. I realize sitting here with my orange jacket against the black that I look like a Halloween costume. What are you going as for Halloween?

Michael Wolff (53:32)

You know, I'm an adult.

Joanna (53:35)

Well, what does that mean?

Michael Wolff (53:37)

I do have young children, however, who have seems to have many options of costumes that they will, that they might or might not wear, depending on how they feel.

Joanna (53:50)

At the moment, I'm fairly convinced that Victoria, your wife, who's master at home crafts, will have made them beautiful costumes that she's hand sewn and made with bits, bits of driftwood from the beach and shells.

Michael Wolff (54:04)

This is true. And many more than one costume. How are you feeling this or are you feeling that at the moment you have to go out into the world?

Joanna (54:13)

When was the last time you wore a Halloween costume, Michael?

Michael Wolff (54:16)

I don't know. Maybe I was nine years old.

Joanna (54:20)

Okay. It's, it's, it's become a thing since then. Anyway, we will meet again on Saturday to figure out, you know, has Trump managed to pass off his defeat as a victory somehow from his conversations with Xi Jinping and whether or not there's been any movement whatsoever on the shutdown which is impacting hundreds of thousands of Americans, especially this Saturday when the Snap food supplement stops going into action.

Michael Wolff (54:54)

I would say I would look forward to it, but I don't look forward to. This is an enormous amount of pain that people are going to experience.

Joanna (55:06)

I don't want to end on a down note, but it's hard not to focus on that. And also the fact that Donald Trump has expressed no sympathy for people in this situation whatsoever. He seems utterly unable to talk about the shutdown. He seems to have completely delegated it to Mike Johnson.

Michael Wolff (55:23)

This is true and we ought to come back to this because I think this is an interesting moment of who's going to get blamed.

Joanna (55:32)

Okay, well, that does give us something to think about, Michael. Have a fantastic Halloween parade with your children and likewise.

Michael Wolff (55:41)

But what are you going as and where are you going?

Joanna (55:44)

I'm going under the covers, Michael. I'm just going under the covers. Halloween is not something that British people can really get into and my children are now grown so happily I don't have to last minute order from Amazon or from Ricky's Halloween shop, a costume, which I planned to do, you know, three months ago. Obviously forgot and then they end up getting the tail end of what everybody else has left behind. They can take it out with their therapist at some point. Okay, Michael, I want you to tell people to subscribe, leave comments and thank our production team.

Michael Wolff (56:18)

Subscribe, leave comments and don't forget to.

Joanna (56:21)

Join the Daily Beast community. We got some new members yesterday, which I'm very excited about. All right, we'll be back on Saturday afternoon on YouTube, Saturday night on Apple and Spotify. Wherever else you get podcasts, don't forget to subscribe and see you then. And a shout out to our top tier Bee Beast members Karen White, Heidi Riley, Connie Rutherford, Sharon Shipley and Andrea hodel.

Michael Wolff (56:46)

And free D.C. and Devin, Anna and Jesse. Where would we be without you?

Joanna (56:54)

Happy Halloween.

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