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- [00:00]
Michael Wolff
Did I talk too much? Can I just let it go? I wish I would stop. Thank you so much.
- [00:06]
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- [01:24]
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- [01:31]
Michael Wolff
But let's go back to Epstein.
- [01:33]
Joanna
Let us go back to Epstein.
- [01:35]
Michael Wolff
Never forget.
- [01:36]
Joanna
Okay, let's go back to Epstein and the emails that came out from the Oversight committee also last Friday. So Trump was over here trying to do this with Zelensky. Meanwhile, the Oversight committee were distributing emails.
- [01:51]
Michael Wolff
Yeah. And I'm not sure where they come from. I think this must have been a, a leak from somewhere. I mean, and you can't tell who's leaking. The Democrats are leaking, the Republicans are leaking.
- [02:04]
Joanna
So what is inside Trump's head when the. So there's Trump, he's got Putin, he's got Zelensky on the line, he's shouting at Zelensky. And all the time there is the drumbeat of the Oversight committee and the Epstein files.
- [02:21]
Michael Wolff
All of this is better. Everything else that is going on, good or bad, shut down Ukraine, Zelensky, the peace, peacemaking, peace collapsing. All of this is better for Trump than Epstein. Epstein, Epstein.
- [02:44]
Joanna
Okay, so we haven't even discussed where we're going today.
- [02:48]
Michael Wolff
Because I'm not saying that anymore.
- [02:51]
Joanna
Okay. You're not saying that we're going inside Trump's head, but I will say again.
- [02:55]
Michael Wolff
That we do go inside Trump's head because that is the only place from which you can really understand what is going on today in American politics. You can't understand it from the, from the floor of Congress. You can't understand it from the various agencies. You can't understand it from any policy position. You can't understand it through the eyes of any other person in the, the American government. It's all from one guy.
- [03:27]
Joanna
All from one guy. And we're on, I think, day 20 of the government shutdown, which people seem to have stopped talking about.
- [03:38]
Michael Wolff
You know, again. And this should be, this should be the biggest story. It should be a story that gets bigger and bigger and bigger every day instead of as. And this is what's been happening. It gets smaller and smaller. So what is that about? Well, it's partly, again, Trump's brilliance in distracting then. It is also, I think, the intractable nature. Nobody knows really how to talk about this because, because there is no, you know, you know, these things usually happen, these shutdowns. It's a negotiation. You can't keep the government, you can't keep the government shut. So somebody, something has to give. That's the dynamic that one would, that the media would be reporting on. But at this moment, it certainly seems that nobody has the wherewithal of to give. Now there's, you know, this will, this will meaningfully start to impact the American economy from now, I mean, a large impact. I mean, an impact in a way that from the Trump point of view, I mean, the one thing as we, as we look toward, toward the midterms that, that could significantly destabilize his ability to compete in November is an economy that goes seriously south.
- [05:18]
Joanna
Right. Michael? Joanna, can I comment on your suit, please? It's very smart.
- [05:30]
Michael Wolff
Thank you.
- [05:31]
Joanna
It's, I would say, however, more of a spring vibe and we are heading into fall.
- [05:38]
Michael Wolff
You mean it's a gaucherie too late for this season?
- [05:42]
Joanna
Maybe. Or maybe it's just clinging onto the last vibes of summer.
- [05:46]
Michael Wolff
Well, that it is, but I feel it's actually an all weather suit.
- [05:53]
Joanna
Could you wear it to the White House? When was the last time you went to the White House?
- [05:57]
Michael Wolff
You know, I was just trying to think about that in light of the fact that they are tearing down the White House.
- [06:04]
Joanna
Tearing it down.
- [06:06]
Michael Wolff
And I think it was in probably 2019, I think.
- [06:13]
Joanna
Okay, so you didn't go there under.
- [06:15]
Michael Wolff
Joe Biden never once Never an invitation. That's the thing about the Democrats. It is actually one of the interesting things. Say what you want about the Trump White House, and, and we do that. It is. Has always seemed to me remarkably accessible, open for business. You know, and I remember when I was, I was, you know, when I first in the, in 2017, when I literally, on day two of the White House, knocked on the door and was let in for seven months or so with hardly any questions ever asked. And I discussed.
- [06:58]
Joanna
But you need a security pass for it.
- [06:59]
Michael Wolff
Yeah, they gave you a little Penn and you walk through. I mean, it was like. It was not more difficult than getting onto a college campus. Actually, Columbia, since the protests, has become more difficult.
- [07:13]
Joanna
Interesting, interesting.
- [07:14]
Michael Wolff
But I once related this to somebody in the Obama White House who.
- [07:21]
Joanna
Was.
- [07:21]
Michael Wolff
Kind of amazed by this. And this person, a high up person in the Obama White House, said, cheese. If you had come to us, you know, we would have asked for a proposal. We would have, we would have read everything you would have written. We would have had many meetings about it, and then we would have said no.
- [07:41]
Joanna
Right. So there you go. That's different.
- [07:43]
Michael Wolff
The Trump people clearly had never read what I had written and they never thought twice about it. And suddenly I'm in and everyone assumed I should be there.
- [07:55]
Joanna
Well, and also when you were covering the last election, so 2024, weren't you with a group of journalists? And Trump suddenly materialized and he pointed at you and he said, I made you rich.
- [08:07]
Michael Wolff
Exactly, exactly. And then even within the White House, you could basically go into the Oval Office. The Oval Office was filled often with, with dozens of people, two dozen more, three dozen people just sort of sitting there like a bus station, listening to Trump, who sat behind the desk pontificating, giving, as though, as though giving an endless monologue.
- [08:39]
Joanna
Well, they're not ripping out the West Wing, they're ripping out the East Wing, which is traditionally the First Lady's territory. But the First Lady's not there.
- [08:46]
Michael Wolff
Well, this operates on a metaphor on so many levels. Obviously, the first, that he is tearing down the White House. And in so many ways, he is tearing down what we understand to be the job and the function and the, of what the White House does, that it is the pillar of democracy, it represents democracy, it represents the. Everyone in the country, the people's house, and then also the peculiarities of this marriage where. And Melania, this is, as you say, traditionally where the first lady conducts her business. But this first lady is seldom in the White House.
- [09:39]
Joanna
Right. And when she is there, as you Say, and we frequently refer to. She's treated as a guest. But there is something shocking, not least because Donald Trump said he wasn't actually going to knock anything down. He said, we won't be doing that. This is just going to be an addition. But there is something shocking about watching those bulldozers at play and the sort of, you know, the wires sticking out of the walls and everything, and realizing, oh, this is a big change, and he is physically going to change the White House. Not only has he ripped up Jackie Kennedy's Rose Garden and paved it down, which is like the Joni Mitchell song, right? And Mar? A Lagoed it with umbrellas, but now we're getting the ballroom.
- [10:26]
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- [10:26]
Michael Wolff
And I think it's going to be interesting to see what this picture means. Remember, reality changes when there is a picture of it. And, and I just can't. I mean, listen.
- [10:39]
Joanna
Do you mean the actual photos of it?
- [10:40]
Michael Wolff
Yes, yes. And, you know, I mean, I've said this, you know, a thousand times that I cannot, I just can't see how people cannot look at this over that people cannot look at what Trump has done and react viscerally and emotionally and negatively to it, but somehow they have not. Well, but this is so in your face. I mean, he is, he has, he has ripped out a piece of the.
- [11:14]
Joanna
White House and he is replacing it with a ballroom that is 90,000 square feet, which is, I think, double the size of the White House. I mean, he's literally changing the entire footprint. And of course, he's building his triumphant arc. I'm not sure what his triumphs are, but his arc that he wants to go across the Potomac facing the Lincoln Memorial. So not only is he, as you say, this is a great metaphor for what's going on, but he's physically changing the city, too, of D.C. you know.
- [11:48]
Michael Wolff
I mean, for some reason, from all of the things that I have seen and I have now seen a lot in these past 10 Trump years, this is the one. This is one thing that has really, in the moment, grabbed me, and it.
- [12:07]
Joanna
Just.
- [12:09]
Michael Wolff
Sends that message. This is. He's going to do anything he wants, and he's going to rip it out and it's going to be violent, and.
- [12:18]
Joanna
He'S rebuilding it in his own image, stuck in 1965 with his stupid chandeliers.
- [12:25]
Michael Wolff
So we will never escape.
- [12:29]
Joanna
No, because even when he passes or leaves office, there will be a massive footprint. That's what he's. That's what he's doing. And you say that people don't Care and things. But they do care. I mean, there were 7 million people out at the no Kings Parade on Saturday.
- [12:50]
Michael Wolff
Well, yeah, well, let's look at that. They obviously care, and yet here we are. And so the quality of caring, or the quality of resistance is somehow clearly not meeting the moment.
- [13:13]
Joanna
Well, what would you have it do? What would be better? I mean, aren't people just leaning into, we've got one year to go until the midterms.
- [13:27]
Michael Wolff
Yeah, possibly, But I can answer that. I mean, I have an answer to that, but I suddenly just now found myself hesitating on the answer, because what I would say is, you want to bring a level of disruption that the government, the president, the government cannot ignore. But with that second of thinking that I thought they could actually, they could prosecute me for saying that.
- [14:05]
Joanna
Okay, well, we don't want them prosecuting.
- [14:07]
Michael Wolff
You, but it's that thing, so. And I think throughout, everywhere, people who are in a public position, making public statements in the media, are having that second of hesitation.
- [14:23]
Joanna
Well, you saw we're recording this on Tuesday afternoon, and John Brennan is about to be indicted.
- [14:30]
Michael Wolff
I think we are going down a list of opponents of the president who will be indicted. Obviously, we've already indicted James Comey, the former director of the FBI, Letitia James, the Attorney General of New York, and Adam Schiff hasn't been indicted yet, but they are all on this list. And of course, John Bolton has been indicted. So it's one after the other after the other. Where does that end? Well, you know, I mean, that's an interesting question, because I think every indictment emboldens him to indict someone further. So the question is, so James Comey has been indicted. I cannot see in any realm of logic how this is not thrown out, that it never gets. It hardly ever gets to a court. It's certainly not going to get to a trial. What happens then when these obviously politically motivated indictments, improper indictments, what happens when they are thrown out? How does he react?
- [15:50]
Joanna
We know that the career attorneys didn't want to bring the case either against John Bolton or against Tish James or against James Comey. And they've all been fired or. Or left or quit. So Lindsey Halligan was brought in, as you've pointed out on this podcast. No prosecutorial experience.
- [16:12]
Michael Wolff
I want to go further on that. A nonentity. And I mean a nonentity in the literal sense. She doesn't really exist except as a. As a name and a body. She has no authority, no free will, no. No function really, except for to be the stand in for the President himself who was ordering these indictments?
- [16:38]
Joanna
Well, when you talk to people at the White House, do they think these charges are going to stick?
- [16:44]
Michael Wolff
No. In fact, I would say, I mean, you know, the attitude and the affect of the people in the White House is we go along. This is what's happening. You know, he does what he does. This is his show, and we have no comment on it.
- [17:01]
Joanna
And so has anybody thought around the corner in terms of what happens if it doesn't stick against James Comey? He's just let out. Trump moves on. The caravan moves on.
- [17:13]
Michael Wolff
Yeah, I mean, because in every instance now, for many, many years, that's what's happened. I mean, much of what Trump wants and much of what he tries to. Tries to get, and much of what he announces that he has gotten actually just falls by the wayside and we move on to the next thing. So perhaps we move on to the next indictment or the indictment is thrown out and then they refile it in some other way or appeal the decision, they run out the clock, which is what he traditionally has done. We just keep it going.
- [17:52]
Joanna
So what happens if he falls back on his old habits and decides against paying the people that are doing the construction work for the new ballroom? I know that he's been soliciting payments from all sorts of American companies, so we assume he's already gathered the money to pay people. But one of his habits is not to pay workmen.
- [18:15]
Michael Wolff
Yeah, no, I think it's. I think if you work for Donald Trump, you do that at your own risk. Understanding, understanding the possibility, the likelihood that you won't get paid now. I mean, I think people probably have a way of rationalizing that they may even have knowing that this could happen. They may also have a way of figuring out how to get paid, which is to say you, you know, you bill for this and you get it up front. I mean, I don't know. I certainly would hope that somebody has thought this through, but, you know, the relationship of anybody who works for Donald Trump to Donald Trump is fraud. I mean, if you look at the long history of the first administration, most of the people who went to work for Donald Trump got screwed in the end, if not themselves indicted, or if not publicly embarrassed or publicly fired.
- [19:23]
Joanna
Well, it's astonishing how many people that worked for him ended up going to jail. I mean, Roger Stone, Michael Steve Bannon, Peter Navarro.
- [19:33]
Michael Wolff
Right. No, I mean, they. Not only. They. Not only. Yeah. Allen Weisselberg, across the board, everybody. It's an unhappy ending. For almost anyone who works for Donald Trump, except save who? Jared Kushner.
- [19:52]
Joanna
Jared Kushner back on a plane to the Middle east to resolve. Well, to resolve what's going on there right now. Rebel. Up until.
- [20:02]
Michael Wolff
I mean, there's a. There's a change from the first administration to this administration that, in fact, a surprising number of people have now stayed there since they came into office nine months ago. And this is part. That's a measure of how abject they are, how the fact that they themselves are like Lindsay Halligan nonentities, they just fill the spot. And they are not really to do there to do anything, certainly not to challenge him or even engage with him in any meaningful way.
- [20:43]
Joanna
So at least they're going to have to walk through a construction site to get to the White House Cabinet meetings now. I mean, they're going to be bothered by drilling and jackhammering and dust and all the things that go on when you're having construction. I wonder if this is going to cost, like New York construction, twice the estimate and take twice as long.
- [21:05]
Michael Wolff
Well, it'd be interesting to see, you know, because he does pride himself, and I understand from a lot of people who have crossed paths with him and worked with him and been in the real estate business and come to hate him, of course, but at least to see how he operates that he is capable of staying on budget in construction projects.
- [21:29]
Joanna
That's interesting. Very interesting. And in the meantime, he's sending out memes of himself as a fighter pilot, interestingly, holding the mask not above his nose, where I think it's supposed to go, his nose and mouth, only above his mouth, and flying across New York City dropping shit on everybody with a.
- [21:50]
Michael Wolff
Crown on his head. I noticed one of our commenters, because on our last episode, we took exception. You took exception to the name of the protest, no Kings protest. And a commenter pointed out that actually this gives him the wherewithal to actually be the king, claim to be the king, to embrace that. And it's a funny, funny thing, because that is, in a way, what he is selling. I'm the king.
- [22:33]
Joanna
I'm the emperor. Yeah. So Gavin Newsom then responded with another AI video of himself flying a fighter jet over January the sixth, protesters throwing shit at them. Thoughts? Do you think that Donald Trump has a team of young people doing this, or. They might not even be young. Is this what Barron's doing as he's hanging out in dc? Does he have a team of people putting these together?
- [23:06]
Michael Wolff
Well, I know that. I mean, I know. I know that during the campaign that there was a kind of ad hoc decentralized group of, you know, fat guys in their parents basement, as Trump once.
- [23:26]
Joanna
Right. 400 pounders, I think he said, who.
- [23:30]
Michael Wolff
Were creating these memes independently. And then as they started to come out more and more and more with a special effectiveness against Ron DeSantis, then the White House started to corral them in some sense. But it really was an ad hoc kind of thing that grew up with enormous effectiveness.
- [23:56]
Joanna
Okay. But now it feels like it's being deployed much more specifically.
- [24:00]
Michael Wolff
Yeah, I don't know who is doing this, but I would imagine that some of the same, the same 400 pound guys are yet doing this.
- [24:10]
Joanna
OK, well, we should find out. Can you ask your friends at the White House, the jackhammering White House, what's going on? Because it would be useful. It would be useful to know. And they're certainly increasing and they also seem, I mean, we. I talked to Dr. John Gartner, who we've had on the Daily Beast podcast before. I talked to him for an interview that we're going to run later this week. And he was saying that as people get, as people with dementia, as their dementia develops, one of the things that they have is they lose a sense of decorum, they become coarser, they become disinhibited. And so sending out a video of yourself unloading a load of shit over New York City is something that feels very in line with someone who's no longer 100% done with it.
- [25:02]
Michael Wolff
Yeah, I don't know about that. I mean, this seems extremely strategic to me. And something that a guy with his finger on the cultural pulse, as weird as it might seem, would do with great effectiveness. And the fact that this is. Everybody's talking about this and, and it sends a clear message, a clear message that everyone is talking about. I'm the king. I don't care about this. I embrace whatever you're saying about me. I embrace it. And then I can dump shit on you. And once again, a message.
- [25:55]
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- [27:59]
Joanna
We love our sponsors. But now we're back discussing, well, kind of everything. So he's had a setback this week in terms of his role as peacemaker because Vladimir Putin has suddenly said I don't want to meet you for the the time being.
- [28:15]
Michael Wolff
Well, I think he's had a number of setbacks. First thing, the ceasefire in Gaza seems at best fragile and possibly having already fallen apart. So you know, the peace, the peace that no one could achieve for 3,000 years according to Donald Trump, now has fallen apart. And he achieved a peace for 10, 10 days.
- [28:42]
Joanna
Well, he did. And his deal maker, son in law and friend, Steve Wyckoff, golfing buddy who as they said to the New York Times, the reason they were able to do this instead of the tedious Old history professors that are the usual diplomats are. Because they're real estate deal guys.
- [28:59]
Michael Wolff
Right. And also because they did not make a deal.
- [29:02]
Joanna
Well, we don't know if they made a deal because there's no records of it. They had a 20 point plan, but we only knew the first five points of the plan, and then they've been put back on a plane to the next five points.
- [29:15]
Michael Wolff
Well, we, we know at least publicly that, that there was a long plan here. And we know what, that Hamas has only agreed to a few points of it, not the other points, critical points, not agreed to, laying down of arms, et cetera, et cetera. In fact, they seem to be quite doing the opposite of shooting everybody.
- [29:38]
Joanna
Well, and the Israelis are responding at this point.
- [29:40]
Michael Wolff
Yeah, exactly. So that's how you make a deal. You make a deal by not making a deal. Nobody really has to agree to anything. And that is customary in the real estate business. We just go forward and then we sue each other later.
- [29:59]
Joanna
So maybe there is logic to how you create peace in the Middle East.
- [30:04]
Michael Wolff
But that's not his only problem in this Trump diplomacy. You know, he did. There was this weird succession of gambits about Ukraine. So he was going to send, I mean, he came back from the Middle east the peacemaker. So now I'm going to make. That was fun. So now I'm going to make peace in Ukraine. How am I going to do that? I'm going to give them Tomahawk missiles and then they can just fire them at Russia, and then Russia will come to the table, will accede to be reasonable about this because we're giving them Tomahawks. And then he calls up Putin and out of that conversation, no Tomahawks. Because Putin says what to him? I don't know. Whatever Putin supposedly has on Donald Trump, he may have played that card because Trump comes out of that phone call and he's back on Putin's side. So I'm on Zelensky's side now. I call Putin. Now I'm back on Putin's side. Then I get Zelensky to come to the White House. This was just, what, Friday?
- [31:29]
Joanna
Friday.
- [31:33]
Michael Wolff
And Zelensky, who's coming to pick up his Tomahawks, by the way, suddenly finds himself in the White House with Trump saying, we're going to end this war because you're going to surrender.
- [31:45]
Joanna
Right.
- [31:46]
Michael Wolff
And then when zelensky says, well, Mr.
- [31:50]
Joanna
President, no, I'm not Mr. President, and.
- [31:52]
Michael Wolff
Then Trump has a hissy fit.
- [31:55]
Joanna
So.
- [31:57]
Michael Wolff
I'm already exhausted by wherever this.
- [32:00]
Joanna
Well, and also what's interesting is that they didn't do the usual press conference. Right. They went off to have a private meeting. And in fact, the Financial Times had a very interesting piece suggesting that the two of them were shouting at each other behind closed doors because Zelensky's absolutely not giving in and giving up the Donbas. And Trump is saying, this is what you have to do to get peace. You have to do it the Russian way, otherwise they're going to just trounce you.
- [32:25]
Michael Wolff
Yeah, no, and props to the FT for getting this story. As a matter of fact, I don't think I've read this story in the New York Times yet. I mean, it doesn't really change anything, which is the other interesting thing that happens in Trump's diplomacy. Nothing really changes. And then he proceeds to. From whatever kind of. Kind of moment of.
- [32:49]
Joanna
Of.
- [32:51]
Michael Wolff
You can't. Whatever. You can't believe it moment there is, then he loses interest in it.
- [32:57]
Joanna
Right. You could almost tell he'd lost interest in the piece in the Middle east. By the time he'd walked off that hastily erected sort of dais in the hotel, it looked like a sort of corporate, you know, a corporate event where you were meeting the head of sales and things and you had all these kind of a couple of European leaders, and then you had Middle Eastern leaders. And then Trump sort of, by the end of it, he'd had enough. He'd sated himself with the glory he wanted, and he kind of wandered off.
- [33:23]
Michael Wolff
No, and having Zelensky in the White House and having this, you know, yelling at him and demanding he surrender is literally no different than. When was that?
- [33:34]
Joanna
That was last February when Zelenskyy came for the first time and J.D. vance shouted him.
- [33:39]
Michael Wolff
Right, right. So the same thing we've just enacted, the thing. Nothing happened has changed since then. Does anything change after this? Probably not.
- [33:47]
Joanna
Well, he had the Putin summit in Alaska in the summer to draw attention away from the resurgence of the Jeffrey Epstein story. Right. That went absolutely nowhere. And now Putin just must be rocking back and forth, laughing, isn't he, at Donald Trump trying to do this? Or is he dug in? Because obviously the war hasn't gone as fast as he would have hoped.
- [34:10]
Michael Wolff
You mean Putin Putin?
- [34:12]
Joanna
Yeah. Didn't I say Putin? What did I say?
- [34:14]
Michael Wolff
Well, you said he, so I wasn't.
- [34:15]
Joanna
Oh, sorry. I meant Putin. I thought Putin must be laughing at Trump trying to get this organized.
- [34:23]
Michael Wolff
No. Well, I mean, I think Putin. Putin is going to be frustrated, too, because he is now counting on Trump to get Ukraine to surrender.
- [34:36]
Joanna
Right.
- [34:36]
Michael Wolff
Basically. I mean, so Putin has called up Trump, told him, reminded him what he has on him and the compromat. Yes. And given him an order.
- [34:51]
Joanna
While chatting to Melania. Back. Well, back channeling to Melania.
- [34:56]
Michael Wolff
Yes. And then. So Trump gets off the phone, and then he has to order Zelensky to surrender. And Zelensky says no.
- [35:09]
Joanna
So, so now Trump's caught in the middle.
- [35:11]
Michael Wolff
Yes, Trump is caught in the middle. Putin is. Is irritated.
- [35:17]
Joanna
And the Europeans are thinking, we're going to have to pony up more for our own defense and we're going to have to give Zelensky some more air cover, which.
- [35:27]
Michael Wolff
Which they are going to have to do. And Zelensky, of course, is. Is in a terrible position. I mean, this is not. This is not good. This is not good for anyone, actually, which we forget because it kind of. Because Trump loses interest. So we lose interest or the media loses interest. So you can't keep your eye on this ball because there are so many other balls.
- [35:48]
Joanna
Of course. Right. And least of all the Russian men who are being sent like fodder to the front lines and the brave Ukrainians trying to hold on to their territory.
- [35:59]
Michael Wolff
But let's go back to Epstein.
- [36:01]
Joanna
Let us go back to Epstein.
- [36:03]
Michael Wolff
Never forget.
- [36:03]
Joanna
Okay, let's go back to Epstein and the emails that came out from the Oversight Committee also last Friday. Busy day. So Trump was over here trying to do this with Zelensky. Meanwhile, the Oversight Committee were distributing.
- [36:18]
Michael Wolff
Yeah, and I'm not. Yeah. And I'm not sure where they come from. I mean. I mean, they seem to have come from the Oversight. Is the Oversight Committee allowed to do that just to hand out emails? I don't think so. So I think this must have been a leak from somewhere. I mean, and you can't tell who's leaking. The Democrats are leaking, the Republicans are leaking. And then the other interesting thing about this, I mean, it's not just emails, first thing, it's a lot of diary. Diary entries. And I know this because I appear in a variety of places in these diaries. I mean, it doesn't say. It just sort of identifies who he's meeting with at a given time. But one of the interesting things about this is who appears, as I say I appear, and who is redacted. So. So there will be instances of, you know, 9:00am August, such and such, meeting with Michael Wolff and redact.
- [37:31]
Joanna
So who's figured out who to redact? How do you get your name redacted?
- [37:35]
Michael Wolff
Well, you know, I'm not Sure. Anybody quite knows. So somewhere in there there's a kind of trade offs, I'd say, or somebody's trading out. And I get the feeling that it may be, I mean, I know some of the people whose names are redacted and so how did, I'm thinking, how did their names get redacted? And I have a feeling that the Democrats probably redact and the Republicans probably redact. It's probably okay. If you're going to redact that person, we're going to redact this person. Person. I don't know what grounds, if any grounds other than you're my friend, you're my friend. I don't know. I mean, I've made inquiries and I'm not getting an answer. If anybody knows the answer, I would love to hear it.
- [38:28]
Joanna
Yeah, there must be someone out there listening who may know why the names are being redacted from these emails and from the diaries and on what basis?
- [38:36]
Michael Wolff
Because a lot of names are not being redacted.
- [38:39]
Joanna
So what are the names that you spotted that you were surprised by or that you think other people will be surprised by?
- [38:50]
Michael Wolff
I mean, most of the names are already public and maybe that's the, maybe that's the measure. Well, we know that person has, has spoken to, to Jeffrey Epstein. So we're not going to redact. But, but, but shouldn't we know the other people also? I don't, I don't know. This is a, this is, I mean, there are several mysteries. Where do these emails come from? Well, don't they come from or where.
- [39:20]
Joanna
Does this material, don't they come from the estate?
- [39:22]
Michael Wolff
No, no, no, no. This is, this is from the oversight committee. I mean, I think that there's a, that there's material coming from several different sources. I mean, some of the material we know that has come through the estate, but the material that has come from the state has come from the estate through the oversight committee. So I mean, the estate is not just leaking willy nilly.
- [39:46]
Joanna
No, no, but I meant, so the oversight, the oversight committee can ask the estate for information. It's also asking the FBI for information, right?
- [39:55]
Michael Wolff
Yeah. And I don't think the estate would have this information. In other words, all of this information, date, books, et cetera, et cetera, anything that was in digital form was taken by the FBI.
- [40:09]
Joanna
So the FBI have access to all his diaries. So they know who was at his house and they know when the FBI.
- [40:16]
Michael Wolff
Has access to whatever they took from his, from his house, from his various houses shortly after he was arrested.
- [40:24]
Joanna
But if The FBI took his computers and various items that were on his desk and everything. There must have been all sorts of things they perhaps didn't take. Which people who work for Jeffrey Epstein knew because he assumed at some point he would be raided by the FBI to hide in other places. Who has that stuff?
- [40:44]
Michael Wolff
Well, if it's hidden, we wouldn't know who has it. If it's not hidden, that would have been required. The FBI would be. Would have required that it to be turned over.
- [40:55]
Joanna
But how would they necessarily know to look for stuff?
- [40:58]
Michael Wolff
Well, that's why I'm saying if it's hidden, we don't know because it's hidden. But if it's not hidden, then the FBI would come pick it up.
- [41:06]
Joanna
Okay, this is very confusing. So we basically have no idea. And we need to find, find out what the rules are of the oversight committee distributing material they have gotten about Jeffrey Epstein from the FBI.
- [41:19]
Michael Wolff
Yes. We should make a call and ask them and maybe ask them too. Who gets redacted.
- [41:26]
Joanna
Yeah. And why they get redacted. Okay, so watch this space on Jeffrey Epstein, but he sure as hell ain't going away.
- [41:33]
Michael Wolff
Okay, I'm going to toss to our sponsors. Did I talk too much? Can't I just let it go? Thank you so much.
- [41:48]
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- [44:20]
Joanna
And Michael and I are back and we're still inside Trump's head. So what is inside Trump's head? When the so there's Trump, he's got Putin, he's got Zelensky on the line, he's shouting at Zelensky. And all the time there is the drumbeat of the oversight committee and the Epstein files.
- [44:42]
Michael Wolff
All of this is better. Everything else that is going on, good or bad, shut down Ukraine, Zelensky, the peacemaking, peace collapsing. All of this is better for Trump than Epstein. Epstein, Epstein. So whatever happens from Trump's point of view, it's, well, okay, that may be bad. At least it's not Epstein. And in fact it's good to because it distracts from Epstein.
- [45:18]
Joanna
There was a curious piece in the Times at the weekend about Leon Black, the co founder of Apollo, the big private equity group, and a series of emails that Jeffrey Epstein had sent to him. Increasingly frantic, I think, demanding money, saying, you know, my average fee for you is $40 million. You don't see, seem to want to pay it this year. I want 25 million up front. Otherwise I'm not going to do, I'm not going to do your taxes for you. Whatever he was actually doing for him, what did you make of those? I mean, no secret that he had been an advisor to Leon Black, but the emails felt intimate and annoyed and interesting.
- [46:00]
Michael Wolff
Yeah, well, let's also just establish the context that, you know, Leon Black is a Trump support, largely. There was a moment in which, in the first administration where Trump was going to make him the Treasury Secretary. So this is, there's a very close Trump relationship there with Apollo, with Black, with, with, with the head of Apollo. But the, the, the emails, they did, they did feel intimate. They really felt like you, you were up close to seeing a dispute about money, which, as we all know, those kinds of disputes, especially at this level of money, get very rancorous.
- [46:52]
Joanna
Right. I was trying to imagine what it would be like to be Leon Black receiving those emails from Jeffrey Epstein.
- [46:59]
Michael Wolff
Well, the question is, were they threatening?
- [47:03]
Joanna
They seem to be a little threatening, I think.
- [47:05]
Michael Wolff
Well, which, which would be, you know, that's what people do when they, when, you know, when, when they feel they have not been paid what they've owed, they get threatening. Is it just that or was, is there something actual, is there an actual threat? If you don't do this, I'm going to, because I know, I mean, I don't know what these things are. I mean, part of this relationship, part of, I mean, Leon Black has always maintained that he was paying Jeffrey Epstein for important financial services that had saved him in an enormous amount of money.
- [47:55]
Joanna
Well, in the emails, Jeffrey Epstein alludes to the fact that he saved him between $1.5 and $2 billion.
- [48:03]
Michael Wolff
Right now a lot of, he got.
- [48:04]
Joanna
Paid, I think upward of 156 million right now.
- [48:08]
Michael Wolff
A lot of people have said, well, that's ridiculous. I mean, Jeffrey Epstein, you know, didn't go to college. What could, what could he do? I mean, I've always found that a little kind of, you know, the thing that, you know, people who went to good colleges say, hey, go to college. I mean, I mean, it certainly, certainly their relationship, which I saw I was privy to seeing in quite a number of instances, was a close relationship. Leon Black clearly valued Jeffrey Epstein's advice, even if Jeffrey Epstein didn't go to college. So there may actually have been, there may have been genuine value there, even if he didn't go to college. But then the other thing is, and this is also mostly out in the open at this point is that Leon Black had clear problems. Let me think how to characterize this. Clearly. He was involved with several women who were. These were not. These were relationships. Problematic relationships.
- [49:36]
Joanna
Well, and problematic relationships in that he appeared to be paying these women off, or he was certainly paying them large sums of money.
- [49:43]
Michael Wolff
Exactly. And so how did Jeffrey Epstein figure into that? Did he figure into that? I mean, these are all questions that are not answered, but certainly raised in the context of trying to understand this relationship. Or at the same time, it may just be he was owed money and he was. He was pissed that he wasn't getting it.
- [50:06]
Joanna
So where did those emails come from?
- [50:11]
Michael Wolff
Well, where do we know that they're from? There was a large cachet of emails that Bloomberg had. The. Leon Black. But this was. This was. The New York Times had these emails. So they came for. We don't know where the New York Times comes from.
- [50:29]
Joanna
So someone is distributing Jeffrey Epstein e. Emails across the media.
- [50:34]
Michael Wolff
Yes. Now there is. People believe. Some people believe that the emails that Bloomberg got were a hack by a. Were a state hack. But I think the more interesting thing is the idea that this was the result of a hack by a foreign state. I don't know if that's true. I do know that people who are intimately involved in this, in trying to understand the Epstein matter, believe that that's where those emails came from.
- [51:16]
Joanna
Well. And we know that Iran hacked John Bolton's AOL account.
- [51:21]
Michael Wolff
Oh, no. I mean, it certainly is possible.
- [51:24]
Joanna
Oh, of course it's possible. Right. Very interesting. All right, so where does this leave us? The Oversight Committee is continuing to do.
- [51:31]
Michael Wolff
Its work with Epstein frustrated by the shutdown. So. Which is another aspect of the shutdown. The shutdown is not good. But as in all things, it is to the extent that it frustrates the Epstein investigation, it is a silver lining for trust.
- [51:51]
Joanna
Trump. And Mike Johnson is still refusing to swear in Adelita Griar from Congresswoman from Arizona who won in a special election and who would tip Thomas Massie and Ro Khanna's demand to have the Epstein files released. But that's in limbo until Mike Johnson swears her in.
- [52:15]
Michael Wolff
Yeah. No, I mean, the Epstein investigation run remains in limbo, which is, I suppose, good for Trump, but on the other hand, bad because it just lingers on Epstein.
- [52:27]
Joanna
Right. It's going to happen.
- [52:28]
Michael Wolff
Epstein.
- [52:30]
Joanna
And Marjorie Taylor Greene is on it, too. Epstein, Epstein, Epstein.
- [52:35]
Michael Wolff
I mean, it is. He can get by, as we have said many times and should continue to say he can apparently get by everything but this.
- [52:45]
Joanna
Michael. Joanna from Elizabeth Barberis, who's in the uk Question. Where is all the money that isn't paying government wages during this shutdown going now?
- [52:57]
Michael Wolff
Well, very good question. And like most government money, the money doesn't really exist. So all of this, I mean, this is exactly what this is about. The government has to agree. The Congress has to agree to fund the government.
- [53:17]
Joanna
Right.
- [53:17]
Michael Wolff
So Congress is the funding mechanism. It will have to borrow money or redirect money that is that it has already borrowed. Remember, the United States government is the biggest deficit finance financier of all time.
- [53:37]
Joanna
And the money isn't sitting in escrow just because it's not being paid. It hasn't yet been agreed upon.
- [53:42]
Michael Wolff
Yes.
- [53:43]
Joanna
Okay, now here's a question. If Maxwell's granted clemency or a pardon, how safe will she be on the outside, regardless of financial assets? I think that's a good question.
- [53:54]
Michael Wolff
I think that's a terrible question.
- [53:55]
Joanna
Well, it's from Laura. C56.
- [53:58]
Michael Wolff
I apologize, Laura.
- [54:00]
Joanna
I thought it was a good question because if I were Ghislaine Maxwell, I would be terrified.
- [54:04]
Michael Wolff
Yeah, but how? But then ask her. We don't know.
- [54:07]
Joanna
This is a woman who wrapped her cell phone in tin foil to avoid the FBI.
- [54:13]
Michael Wolff
Yes, it does sound like she's not exactly prepared for reality, but maybe she is now. She's learned all kinds of.
- [54:23]
Joanna
And she may just be sitting there because you think the deal's been done, and she may just be sitting there waiting. You know, in six months time, she'll slip out the back door.
- [54:31]
Michael Wolff
But we don't know how safe she will be or how secure she will be. And we don't know.
- [54:39]
Joanna
Well, we know that she's in a minimum security prison camp in Texas where she was moved from Tallahassee by the number two in the Justice Department after the birthday letters, which you said were a shot across the bow, leaked by her family, were spotted by Donald Trump.
- [54:59]
Michael Wolff
Right. And she is apparently well protected in prison now. I mean, to a degree that is somewhat disruptive to the rest of the prison, because I suppose the Trump administration really can't afford to lose her.
- [55:20]
Joanna
No, absolutely not. Jeffrey Epstein. Epstein. Epstein. Okay. Someone here is saying, did Epstein and Madoff know each other? It's actually a pretty good question because they must have come across each other at New York events.
- [55:35]
Michael Wolff
Yeah. You know, and I'm loathe to say that. I had this discussion with Jeffrey Epstein and I cannot remember what he said.
- [55:47]
Joanna
Right. I thought they might have both come across, you know, been At Temple Emmanuel or something?
- [55:52]
Michael Wolff
I mean, without question and no, that's a good question. I'm going to go back on that. I may have a note on that somewhere.
- [56:04]
Joanna
We got lots of comments on the fact that we said, or perhaps it was me that said that no Kings protest felt like a negative name. You said it's given him the opportunity to take the mantle of that king. Did you go to a no Kings protest?
- [56:20]
Michael Wolff
I did. I was in the city over the weekend and.
- [56:26]
Joanna
And did you go to the one in Times Square?
- [56:29]
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- [56:29]
Michael Wolff
No, on, on 7th Avenue. Yeah.
- [56:31]
Joanna
Okay. And thoughts?
- [56:34]
Michael Wolff
Was a lot of people. I mean, I always like a protest.
- [56:39]
Joanna
Like, okay, well, I don't like crowds.
- [56:41]
Michael Wolff
I get too near this. But it was. No, I think everybody was. And that's one of the interesting things about these protests. It was a totally good mood Protest. And my 10 year old daughter was delighted to cross paths with this protest.
- [57:01]
Joanna
I mean, well, an amazingly few arrests, no arrests In I think D.C. no arrests in New York. Incredible.
- [57:08]
Michael Wolff
Yeah. No, I mean, you know, I mean, it is a peaceful protest. Protests. It is a, you know, I mean, it seemed, and that was so this is the weird thing about it. It seems celebratory. And I think what people are celebrating is the fact that people are coming out to say, hey, this is this. There's something bad going on here in a big way. But it's a weird message because.
- [57:41]
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- [57:41]
Joanna
Should talk to, we want to talk to the organizers of the no Kings parade, if you happen to know them, please will you ask them to get in touch with us? We will get in touch with you because we do want to talk to you and we do think there is an offshoot which is a release the Epstein's File protest.
- [57:59]
Michael Wolff
I want 10 million people in Washington.
- [58:01]
Joanna
D.C. yeah, I would come to that. I would come to that. All right. And then Laura L. Carver got lots of Laura's writing. I agree and disagree with Michael. I'm only a few minutes into the podcast, but I think it's important that Trump supporters in different corners of the US See their neighbors, don't support what's going on in numbers around the corner or at their state capitals. No doubt, 7 to 10 million people marching on Washington would send a message more directly to Trump, but I think they would put tons of barriers up, send in the guard, try to characterize it as an insurrection and be more successful at that. Which is a perfectly legit point.
- [58:40]
Michael Wolff
Perfectly legit. Everything Laura lacava says here I agree with. So we don't have to Disagree.
- [58:50]
Joanna
And Laura, take that to the bank because I never get an agreement with Michael. A lot of people pointed out that it would be expensive for people to have to go to dc.
- [58:58]
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- [58:58]
Joanna
And that you were being a bit privileged. White male Assuming that everybody could stay in a hotel or fly in or.
- [59:04]
Michael Wolff
Well, there are not 10 million hotel rooms in Washington, DC. But that's the point of it. That's the point of this. That you have to create a. Create a statement that's truly meaningful. That's not easy, that people do this, to overcome all hardships, to do this, because that's how important it is.
- [59:31]
Joanna
All right, well, Michael, you've come in from your lovely Hamptons home to the inside Trump's head studio. It's now time for you to flee. We will see you on. When are we back? Thursday.
- [59:45]
Michael Wolff
Thursday.
- [59:45]
Joanna
It is Thursday. And I think we have a specific topic for Thursday.
- [59:51]
Michael Wolff
Do I know what it is?
- [59:52]
Joanna
I think it might be Stephen Miller.
- [59:53]
Michael Wolff
Oh, Stephen Miller. Stephen Miller.
- [59:56]
Joanna
Stephen Miller has got a lot of power.
- [59:58]
Michael Wolff
Stephen Miller has got a lot of power. Yeah. Okay, Steve.
- [60:02]
Joanna
Stephen Miller. It is on Thursday. If you have been. Thank you for joining us. Don't forget to subscribe to the Daily Beast. Please leave us a comment. Push the button to join our membership community where you get access to Michael and me and our staff and 24, 7. 24 7, 3, 6, 5. What else? And a shout out to our top tier Beebeast members, Karen White, Heidi Riley, Connie Rutherford, Sharon Shipley, Andrea Hodel and Free dc. Thanks to our production team, Devon Rogerino, Anna Von Erssen and Jessie Millwood.
- [60:39]
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