Jon Stewart on Trump’s Heel Turn on Zelenskyy & Elon's Interview Challenge | Matthew Desmond

Summary

The Daily Show: Ears Edition – Episode Summary

Title: Jon Stewart on Trump’s Heel Turn on Zelenskyy & Elon's Interview Challenge | Matthew Desmond
Hosts: Jon Stewart, Matthew Desmond
Release Date: March 4, 2025

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I. Introduction and Opening Monologue

[00:01 – 10:48]

Jon Stewart kicks off the episode with his signature blend of humor and sharp political commentary. He opens by addressing previous critiques he made about Elon Musk and the Doge program, setting a humorous yet critical tone for the evening. Stewart shares anecdotes about network policies, specifically the ban on "big boy mugs," highlighting the often absurd nature of corporate regulations.

II. Satirical Commentary on Geopolitical Events

A. Trump, Zelenskyy, and Putin Dynamics

Stewart delves into the complexities of recent geopolitical tensions, particularly focusing on the interactions between former President Donald Trump, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, and Russian President Vladimir Putin. Using a vivid WWE metaphor, Stewart likens Trump's strategies to a professional wrestler's heel turn—transitioning from a "good guy" to a "bad guy."

Notable Quote:
“John Cena, the good guy of professional wrestling, flipped the script and went from being a face to a heel, a bad guy.” [05:30]

Stewart criticizes the perceived lack of bipartisan efforts in American politics, suggesting that Trump’s favoritism towards Putin undermines traditional Western alliances and values.

B. WWE Analogies and Political Realities

Using WWE storylines, Stewart parallels the unpredictability and theatrics of wrestling with the unpredictability in international politics. He paints a picture of America grappling with shifting alliances and questioning its stance on global issues post the Oval Office meeting between Trump, JD Vance, and Zelenskyy.

Notable Quote:
“America smells what the Rock was cooking and delivered the nutshot to the hopes and dreams of Ukrainians everywhere.” [07:45]

Stewart emphasizes the confusion and frustration felt by Americans as they try to navigate the new geopolitical landscape, drawing parallels to wrestling fans bewildered by sudden character changes.

III. Transition to Guest Segment

After an extended monologue filled with humor and biting critique, Stewart smoothly transitions to the guest portion of the show, reintroducing Matthew Desmond, sociologist and Pulitzer Prize-winning author of "Evicted."

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IV. Interview with Matthew Desmond

[25:19 – 43:49]

A. Introduction to "Poverty by America"

Stewart welcomes Desmond and commends his latest book, "Poverty by America," setting the stage for a deep dive into the systemic issues surrounding poverty in the United States.

Notable Quote:
“Does America require poverty to function in the way that we do? Is it a requirement of our society?” [26:12]

Desmond responds emphatically, asserting that poverty is not a necessary component of American society and that systemic changes can alleviate it.

B. Taxation and Eliminating Poverty

The conversation shifts to the feasibility of eradicating poverty through fiscal policies. Desmond presents a compelling argument that collecting owed taxes from the top 1% could generate approximately $175-177 billion annually—sufficient to close the poverty gap.

Notable Quote:
“The average family in the top 20% are receiving about $35,000 a year from the government, which is 40% more than the poorest families.” [31:46]

Stewart initially expresses disbelief but is quickly confronted with hard-hitting statistics that challenge common perceptions about tax burdens and welfare distribution.

C. Government Programs and Their Effectiveness

Desmond highlights the critical role of government programs like Medicaid, food stamps, and housing assistance in lifting millions above the poverty line. He contrasts the effectiveness of these programs with corporate subsidies, arguing that investments in people yield higher returns.

Notable Quote:
“A billion dollars dedicated to food stamps gets you $1.5 billion in our GDP and $62 returned to society through benefits to kids.” [43:26]

Stewart acknowledges the stark differences between public investments in welfare versus private corporate gains, underscoring the misalignment in societal values.

D. Solutions to Poverty and Economic Justice

The discussion evolves into potential solutions for systemic poverty, including sectoral bargaining, enhancing worker power, and restructuring tax systems to be more progressive. Desmond advocates for deepening investments in fighting poverty and reviving bold programs reminiscent of the Great Society initiatives.

Notable Quote:
“Investing in American people and stabilizing communities that need it the most is the best way for all of us.” [43:49]

Stewart and Desmond brainstorm practical measures, such as introducing new economic indicators that reflect the well-being of families rather than just stock market performance. They emphasize the necessity of legislative action and political movements to drive meaningful change.

Notable Quote:
“We have a capitalism that serves the people, not the other way around.” [36:58]

V. Conclusion

[43:49 – End]

Jon Stewart wraps up the interview by lauding Desmond’s insights and the compelling arguments presented in "Poverty by America." He encourages listeners to engage with the book to gain a deeper understanding of the complexities of poverty and the possible solutions to eradicate it.

Notable Quote:
“This book will blow you and open your eyes to a system that can often be well-meaning but not function in the manner that it purports to be functioning.” [43:47]

Stewart concludes the episode by highlighting the importance of informed discourse and continuous engagement with socio-economic issues, leaving listeners both entertained and intellectually stimulated.

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Key Takeaways

• Systemic Poverty: Matthew Desmond argues that poverty is not a structural necessity in America and can be eradicated through targeted fiscal policies and robust government programs.

• Tax Reform: By addressing tax evasion and restructuring the tax system to be more progressive, the U.S. can generate significant revenue to support poverty alleviation initiatives.

• Worker Empowerment: Strengthening worker power through sectoral bargaining and inclusive corporate governance can lead to a more equitable economy.

• Investment in People: Redirecting subsidies from corporations to human-centric programs yields higher economic and social returns, fostering a healthier society.

• Legislative Action: Meaningful change requires proactive legislative measures and a reinvigorated political movement committed to economic justice and social equity.

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For further exploration, listeners are encouraged to read Matthew Desmond’s "Poverty by America" and engage with The Daily Show's content on Comedy Central and Paramount+ for more insightful discussions and analyses.

Transcript

[Jon Stewart]

You're listening to Comedy Central. From the most trusted journalists at Comedy Central. It's America's only source for news. This is the Daily show with your host, Jon Stewart. Welcome to the Daily Show. How are you? My name is Jon Stewart. Thank you. Oh, man, we. We got. Thank you. Wake up. We got a great Joe boy tonight. I'm very excited, as you can see. I am. I am fully healed. Oh, we see. This is what caused all the commotion. They glued it back together. Where is it? They glued it back together. Boom. That's all. That's it. That's what nearly brought an old man down. A tiny puncture wound that all the blood in my body went. Let's go. We got a hell of a show tonight. My guest, sociologist and author Matthew Desmond, is gonna be. They love him. They love him. Fresh off his upset. Reset win as best supporting actor. And the crowd goes wild. But first, if I can just pick up something from the last time that I was out here. I made a bit of a critique of Elon Musk and the Doge program. Let me reset the scene. I am not allowed to have big boy mugs anymore. There was an actual meeting of the safety department of Paramount and Viacom that was like, no more ceramic for Mr. Stewart. So they wanted to baby proof. So this is. Anyway, we had some critiques about Doge after the show, Governor Musk tweeted, or axed, I guess that he would like to come on here and talk to me as long as the show airs unedited. So I thought about it, and after a prayerful week with my family. Well, a family. This is a family hall pass situation. You don't want to know. You don't want to know. And quite frankly, I don't want to know. But after thinking about his offer, I thought, you know, hey, that's actually how the in studio interviews normally air is unedited. So, sure, we'd be delighted. As a matter of fact, let me sweeten or unsweeten the pot. The interview could be 15 minutes, it could be an hour, it could be two hours, whatever. I'll be honest, I don't think this network makes any other programming. So we can do whatever the we want as long as we rap before the new season of south park, which comes out like May or June of 2026. So I am game. I think it'll be a very interesting conversation. But then I checked X again and I saw another tweet from Elon, because you can't not. And he then said, after saying, I'd like to come on Jon Stewart cannot be trusted and that I am a propagandist and you give me too little credit and that I am not bipartisan. Again, the guy who custom made his own dark MAGA hat that he wears to opine in the Oval Office with the President, who he spent $270 million to elect, thinks I'm just too partisan. I'm really not sure what he thinks bipartisan means, but it's generally not. I support Donald Trump and also Germany's AfD party. That's not bipartisan. That's just the same shit. So I guess what I would say is this. Look, Elon, I do have some criticisms about Doge. I support in general the idea of efficiency and delivering better services to the American public in cheaper and more efficient ways. And if you want to come on and talk about it on the show, great. If you don't want to, sure. But can we just drop the pretense that you won't do it? Because I don't measure up to the standards of neutral discourse that you demand and display at all times. Because quite frankly, that's bullshit. You know it. I know bullshit. But let's get to the big story. Americans are still trying to process the global realignment that has occurred following the disastrous Oval Office meeting between the President, J.D. vance, and Volodymyr Zelenskyy. What happened? They say, are we still America? They say, who side are we on? They say, it's complicated. The best way that I can explain what happened and show Americans how to process this new reality was with another shocking turn of events from this weekend. On Saturday night at the Elimination Chamber, the WWE shocked the world as John Cena turned heel, joined the rock and attacked Cody Rhodes. Now, if that does not immediately explain to you our current geopolitical climate, you must have grown out of watching wrestling through the normal course of aging. I, on the other hand, understand this in my bones. This explains it, folks. All of your shocks, all of your disappointment, all of your anger. It's in there. It's in the squared circle you see Saturday night. Oh, we're doing this Saturday night. John Cena, the good guy of professional wrestling. Mr. Hussle, the champ, the man who stood for everything. Truth, justice. The guy who literally holds the record for the most Make a Wish foundation meetings of all time. People would get cancer just to meet John Cena. Last weekend, Cena flipped the script and went from being a face a good guy to a heel, a bad guy. Now, if you don't follow professional Wrestling. And I'm guessing if you watch this show, you do not. Judging. Judging from. All right, but let me continue to bore you with this metaphor. So here's what happened. The current WWE champion is one Cody Rhodes. Seven people say around Cody Rhodes is the people's Championship. Unquestioned bravery. He stands in for Zelensky in this metaphor. A couple of weeks ago, the Rock, the now evil owner of the wwe, Putin in our story, made Cody Rhodes an offer. The one thing that I want more than anything in this world is that I want your soul. Put it he wants Zelenskyy soul. But sir. But sir, I am smaller and weaker than you. It will take incredible bravery for me to protect my soul and the soul of my people. But luckily I am not protecting my soul alone, for I have the support of the great John Cena. So Cody Rhodes Zelensky told Vladimir Putin, rock, no soul for you, mother. And that's when they met in the Oval Office. America went to hug Zelensky. But when America looked up, somehow Putin had given John Cena the international sign for its time. And rather than repudiate Putin, America smelled what the Rock was cooking. And through that borschti haze, America delivered the nutshot. The nutshot to the hopes and dreams of Ukrainians everywhere. And then for no reason, America jumped on Zelenskyy and started punching him in the face as many times as he could. Too simplistic. No, this is. Am I being too simplistic? Assigning to the delicate art of realpolitik a scripted outcome? Perhaps, but judge for yourself. Putin broken 25 times his own signature. 25 times he broken ceasefire. You're in no position to dictate what we're going to feel.

[Matthew Desmond]

You're not in a good position.

[Jon Stewart]

You don't have the cards right now. Now you're gambling with World War Three.

[Matthew Desmond]

You're gambling with World War Three. Have you said thank you once this entire meeting?

[Jon Stewart]

We gave you, through this stupid president, $350 billion.

[Matthew Desmond]

You're either going to make a deal or we're out.

[Jon Stewart]

This is going to be great television. I will say that. It sure wasn't. But isn't that what you want from the high stakes diplomacy and real life urgency that ending war demands? And you know, even reporters got some nutshots in.

[Matthew Desmond]

Why don't you wear a suit?

[Jon Stewart]

Oh shit. No you didn't. Let's do the dozens. Oh, Zelensky, you're so poor and war torn. You're down to one Brooks brother. Oh shit. You've so War torn. You've given up the meaningless protocols. If you think I'm pushing this metaphor, look at the stunned faces in the crowd at WWE when John Cena turned heel. I now present you the equally stunned faces of those watching this Oval Office pay per view. Scott. I've never seen anything like that. You've never seen anything like that? Wow.

[Matthew Desmond]

Just wow. That was.

[Jon Stewart]

That was something.

[Matthew Desmond]

Caitlin, I want to start with. Look at her face. I mean, Christiane.

[Jon Stewart]

You broke Christiane Amanpour. The woman wanders unprotected through Taliban controlled Afghanistan, doesn't give a 10 minutes of Trump diplomacy, and she's like, is anyone else dizzy? My A1C is plunging now. Of course, there is one big difference between the WWE and the world of politics. In the wwe, they seem very clear on who the good guys and who the bad guys are. Nobody walked out of the match pretending that the guy who got nutshotted was the bad guy.

[Matthew Desmond]

There was this attitude of ungratefulness.

[Jon Stewart]

Seeing his smirk, seeing him roll his eyes, seeing him refer to JD Vance, the Vice president, as JD he shows up in his Equinox chic outfit to the doggone Oval Office.

[Matthew Desmond]

President Zelensky was also antagonistic. And frankly, he was rude.

[Jon Stewart]

So impertinent, so disrespectful, tone deaf, going in and fighting back, getting sassy with the President and the.

[Matthew Desmond]

He was sassy.

[Jon Stewart]

He was sassy. He was sassy. He was a real scallywag. You know what I would say if I was there in the Oval Office with him? I'd say you better watch your tone, mister. I think it was Churchill who during World War II was roundly criticized for being a bit lippy. Excuse me, mister. We'll decide where you're gonna fight them, whether it's on the beaches or not or whatever. Poor guy. Zelensky, his nation was invaded. He's against all odds, held off a much bigger army for three years. And we're like, would it kill you to smile a little more, dress a little nicer? You're a beautiful country. Nobody would know. Show off what you got. You know what I'm talking about? Maybe some of those rare metals I've been hearing some about. But of course, if you criticize Trump's very clear hostility to Zelensky and very clear appreciation of Putin as being suspicious or a repudiation of American values as they've been outlined since World War II. Trump's people quickly set up strawmen north of Richmond. If there are no negotiations, what is the alternative? Another four years of War. We're not saying there should be no negotiations. We're just surprised at the side you seem to be negotiating for. President Trump recognizes the urgent need to end this war after three long, bloody years. President Zelensky has different aims in mind. Yeah, bullshit. I'm pretty sure everybody wants it. Everybody wants to end all. Hitler wanted to end the war, just not the way it ended. You're pretending that we have. We have no other options. Our hearts all break for the suffering and loss and death. But you know what would be even worse? World War Three. Yes, I'm sure your heart in quotation marks is breaking, but in your little zero sum formulation, you are correct. Total capitulation by Ukraine, loss of all their mineral wealth and no security guarantees is still better than World War Three. For now. But, you know, everything sounds better if the only other option you're presenting us is World War 3. You can listen to the Amelia Perez composer freestyle another verse at the Oscars or World War 3. Eventually, you will agree to hear another verse by a hair. These guys are so up Trump's ass, they can't even admit that this meeting was Russia's wet dream. The world is now watching how Trump behaves and acts when he's pressed. I thought he stood up for America, that we're a good people, we want to help you, but we're going to be respected. So I think Moscow is probably more afraid of Trump than ever. Yes, people get terribly afraid when someone viciously takes their side. They must be quaking in there. What do Russians wear on their feet? I don't. Is it shoes inside other shoes? And then they get very small until the last shoe that you take off is a tiny shoe. And you're really. You're positive this has got to be the last shoe? And then. But no, you're a little baby tiny shoe. A little baby. A little baby tiny shoe. You know what? Putin must be quaking. This is the actual Russian state television view on Russia's fearfulness.

[Matthew Desmond]

The new administration is rapidly changing all foreign policy configurations. This largely coincides with our vision. America said, do whatever you want. It has nothing to do with us. It's such a pleasure to watch.

[Jon Stewart]

Basically, he is taking our bread and butter. We wanted to saw the Western world into pieces, but he decided to saw through it himself. Not only are the Russians not fearful, they're delighted. Do you know how hard it is to delight a Russian? There's only two ways to do it. Break up the Western democratic order or bear on roller skates. It's the Only two ways. Or social media, dash, cam, death. Three things, really. Look, none of this is to say Zelensky handled this meeting well. Everyone knows by now Trump's love language is subservience. If he calls your wife ugly, you praise him. If he calls you widdle, you run his State Department. And if you're a foreign leader who wants to be on good terms with America, you gotta butter Trump up like he's Texas toast. British PM Keir Starmer knows how it's done.

[Matthew Desmond]

It is my pleasure to bring from His Majesty the King a letter. He sends his best wishes. It's an invitation for a second state visit. This is really special. This has never happened before. This is unprecedented. And I think that just symbolizes the strength of the relationship between us. So this is a very special letter.

[Jon Stewart]

That's how you do it, Zelensky. It's a letter from the King. It's got a wet seal on it. It was brought here by Harry Potter's owl. What a delight. The King is throwing you a ball. You'll be the belle of the ball. And then I'll sweep your chimney. Zelensky shouldn't have gone in there with Russia hasn't abided by any ceasefire agreement, so we can't trust him. He should have gone in there with a dessert cart and a Kyiv hotel opportunity. So this meeting has deeply wounded America's alliance with Ukraine as well as the rest of Europe. And the punditocracy is having a hard time figuring out the strategy.

[Matthew Desmond]

I'm worried that the President is actually.

[Jon Stewart]

Not interested in a deal about Ukraine.

[Matthew Desmond]

But I don't understand it. The question now, Jim, is what happens in Europe? How does this make America great again?

[Jon Stewart]

It just does not make any sense. You poor dumb bastards. It makes perfect sense. If only you watched professional wrestling. Do you get was a heel turn? Explain it again. It was a heel turn designed to create the alliance Trump always wanted in the first place. What's to understand? Trump and the Republicans like Putin better just listen to Putin.

[Matthew Desmond]

The radical neoliberalism destroying traditional values, the obsessive emphasis on race. Modern cancel culture. It turns into reverse discrimination, reverse racism. They invented five or six genders, transformers, trans. You see, I do not even understand what it is.

[Jon Stewart]

Share toilets for boys and girls, cats marrying dogs. Will and Grace reboot. I mean, come on, it sounds like Putin is primarying Marjorie Taylor Greene from the right. A woman who, by the way, gives up the whole point of this realignment. The Ukrainian government is attacking Christians. Russia is not doing that. They're not attacking Christianity. As a matter of fact, they seem to be protecting it by bombing other Christians. So everyone's wondering, why isn't Trump aligning himself with the West? In his mind, he is Western civilization, not Europe. To most of us, Russia is not that, because we, and historically everyone has used the west to mean Western values. Europe represents the expansion of liberties advocated by great Enlightenment thinkers like Locke, Voltaire and Rousseau. But to Maga, this is Europe. It's gay. Super gay. When MAGA talks about Western civilization, they mean the Knights Templar. Still pretty gay, I gotta say, but excitingly so. But that's the thing. It's not democracy versus dictatorship or capitalism versus communism anymore. It's woke versus unwoke. And Russia is not woke. They're very tired. They're comatose. It wasn't decided in a particularly volatile meeting on Friday. You got to give credit where credit is. Due to MAGA architect Steve Bannon, they've been working on taking out the EU for a while now. It's a global revolt. It's a zeitgeist. We're on the right side of history. The beating heart of the globalist project is in Brussels. If I drive the stake through the vampire, the whole thing will start to dissipate.

[Matthew Desmond]

We'll call it the Movement or the.

[Jon Stewart]

Cause or something like that. And that's literally when we take over the eu. Holy shit. What a concise, centrally planned social engineering scheme. But here we are, the end result of a scripted arc that culminates in America betraying its old alliance for the lure of a strongman partnership that carves up the world's rich bounties and places. Classic democratic values behind transactional convenience. So say it with me, conspiracy theorists. By design, it's a new world order. So, Europe, Sadly. If I may, when we come back, Matthew Desmond's here. Don't go away.

[Matthew Desmond]

Geico's motorcycle expertise means I'm covered by people who know bikes like I do. I'm happy as a clam. No, conclusive scientific research has shown clams can experience happiness.

[Jon Stewart]

I just meant that I feel really good about my coverage. I mean, even if you took the.

[Matthew Desmond]

Climb out for the best day ever.

[Jon Stewart]

Visiting the zoo, taking a scenic ride.

[Matthew Desmond]

Knowing you're insured by specialists, and sharing a strawberry ice cream cone together, the clam would not feel happy.

[Jon Stewart]

And your strawberry cone would taste sort of clammy.

[Matthew Desmond]

Geico's motorcycle specialists who know bikes like you do, assume no liability for clammy ice cream cones. Geico expertise for your motorcycle.

[Jon Stewart]

Welcome back to The Daily Show. My guest tonight, he's a sociologist at Princeton University and a Pulitzer Prize winning author of Evicted. His latest book is called Poverty by America. Please welcome to the program, Matthew Desmond. Sir, thank you. Thanks for being here.

[Matthew Desmond]

Good beer.

[Jon Stewart]

Let me say this fabulous book.

[Matthew Desmond]

Thank you.

[Jon Stewart]

Filled with such interesting research and unusual and I think, really interesting ideas. I mean, does America require poverty to function in the way that we do? Is. Is it a requirement of our society?

[Matthew Desmond]

Yeah. No, I don't think so.

[Jon Stewart]

No, No. I mean, is that it? Does the system we run, do they require in the capitalist system, people in poverty to function at maximum profit?

[Matthew Desmond]

I think a lot of us do benefit from poverty in ways we don't realize. Right. We soak the poor in the labor market, the housing market. We continue to have a government that gives the most to families that need the least by subsidizing affluence instead of fighting poverty, we continue to live in segregated lives. A lot of us are connected to that problem, but it also means we're connected to the solution. I don't think we have to live with all of this poverty in America.

[Jon Stewart]

This system can work. You say something in the book that blew my mind, which is there's a part in there where you talk about the tax burden.

[Matthew Desmond]

Yeah.

[Jon Stewart]

And if we just collected the taxes that were owed, it would account for one point something trillion dollars. And your calculation of how we could end poverty in this country was how much money?

[Matthew Desmond]

So if you take everyone below the poverty line and lift them above it, that's about $177 billion a year. And it's a super rough estimate, but it gives us a sense of what we're talking about when we're talking about ending poverty. Because that's so utterly attainable for us. Right. That's less than 1% of our GDP.

[Jon Stewart]

Right.

[Matthew Desmond]

So a study came out that showed that if the top 1% of Americans just paid all the taxes they owed.

[Jon Stewart]

Just the ones they owed, just the.

[Matthew Desmond]

Ones they owed, and not got taxed at a higher rate, just paid what they owed, we would net about $175 billion a year. So we could just about close the.

[Jon Stewart]

Poverty gap just with and without levying other taxes, just collecting what we need.

[Matthew Desmond]

Right. I mean, so like. So yeah, right.

[Jon Stewart]

Like when you say that, I just go, no, that cannot, that can't be right. But be right. That's insane. And it's not the one thing I will say. It's not like we don't spend money on alleviating poverty. We do the budget for America was what, 3.7 trillion 10 years ago? Now it's like 7 trillion.

[Matthew Desmond]

Yeah.

[Jon Stewart]

We do spend the money. Are we just spending it inefficiently?

[Matthew Desmond]

So I think we have to recognize that the things that we are doing to fight poverty now really, really matter. Medicaid, food stamps, you know, housing assistance, these are lifesavers. These programs are lifting millions of folks above the poverty line every year. We also have to recognize that we have to do more, you know, because the problem's getting a lot worse. So over the last 50 years, we've had wages stagnate for too many workers. We've had housing costs soar. We now have the lowest wages, some of the lowest wages in the industrialized world, in the richest country in the history of the world.

[Jon Stewart]

Our poverty levels are higher than almost all other countries in the industrial world.

[Matthew Desmond]

They're not just higher. Like our child poverty rate is double what it is in Canada, Germany, South Korea. You go to Europe, Europeans have this phrase like American style deprivation. So it's.

[Jon Stewart]

I don't even want to know what the German word for that is, but it, sure, it's very long and sounds like someone has bronchitis.

[Matthew Desmond]

Right.

[Jon Stewart]

But it's. This is the part that's shocking. We've done things. I'm going to go back to the pandemic that there was the era, the rent assistance program and the child tax credits. Poverty dropped in the pandemic when people were really suffering by what percent?

[Matthew Desmond]

So the third rescue plan, the third rescue bill under Biden signed it in March. Right. We dropped child poverty by 44% in six months because of that intervention.

[Jon Stewart]

So we naturally at that point had to end it very quickly.

[Matthew Desmond]

Right.

[Jon Stewart]

That program.

[Matthew Desmond]

Right, Right. Well, a lot of that because we were quiet. We were quiet. You know, we dropped evictions to the lowest they've been ever on record. We did the most for poor kids we've done since the War on poverty and the Great Society. And there was, there was not a lot of us saying this is the new America that we want. We weren't writing our congressperson, we weren't talking to our neighbor about it. We were quiet and in our silence, like 5 million more kids got tossed into poverty the next year. And so I think the big.

[Jon Stewart]

Is it a question of when we think about. We always think like, well, well, for people below the poverty line, there's a ton of programs for them, but I'm a little bit above it. And my parents are getting older and my kids are going to School, and I'm in a tight squeeze. And quite frankly, I don't want any resources that I might have to pay into this. Are there too many people, even above poverty, who are struggling but feel like I'm not getting any value on my return for tax dollars? Isn't there a little resource guarding? And by the way, not without cause?

[Matthew Desmond]

Yeah, there's something to that. But one thing that blew me, I think the thing that blew me away writing this book, is that if you look at everything the government does for us, all those poverty programs that flow to the poorest families, like food stamps, social insurance, like Social Security, but also tax breaks. You got to count tax breaks. You know, they cost the government money and they put money in my pocket. If you add all that up, you learn that the average family, the bottom 20% of the income distribution. So our poorest family, they're receiving about $26,000 a year from the government.

[Jon Stewart]

Okay?

[Matthew Desmond]

So the average family in the top 20% are richest families. They're receiving about $35,000 a year from the government.

[Jon Stewart]

Say that again.

[Matthew Desmond]

So this is the true nature of our welfare state. They're getting about 40% more than the poorest families. And then we have like, the audacity, the shamelessness to look at a program that would like, reduce child poverty or make sure all of us had access to a dentist and be like, gosh, how could we afford it?

[Jon Stewart]

Right. You know, here's where they go with that. And this is the thing that I would like you to talk about, which is what they would say is, oh, yeah, but the top 10%, 20%, they pay all the taxes. I don't think people understand what a regressive tax system we really have for people not just at poverty, but working class, middle class, that comes from sales taxes and everything. People pay much more percentage of their income at the lower levels, even though it's not federally taxed.

[Matthew Desmond]

Right. So, you know, a lot of folks just look at that income tax and they'll say, the poor aren't paying taxes, but that's like counting calories only by counting what you had for breakfast.

[Jon Stewart]

Right.

[Matthew Desmond]

You know, and so if you look in the whole tax structure, you see, you know, a lot of the poor, working class, middle class folks are paying the same tax levy as rich folks. The folks that have the lowest tax burden in the country, of course, are richest families. Makes no sense.

[Jon Stewart]

But we're not bad people.

[Matthew Desmond]

No.

[Jon Stewart]

So what is going wrong? Is it. If you were doge. If you were there to say, yeah, how could we do this more effectively, efficiently, to get people that are struggling to alleviate that? Because in many other countries, they do do that.

[Matthew Desmond]

Yeah.

[Jon Stewart]

What would you say?

[Matthew Desmond]

So I think we gotta do three things. We gotta deepen our investments in fighting poverty. We gotta get back to those big, bold programs that we had in the Great Society. We saw what we could do in Covid.

[Jon Stewart]

What were some of those programs that you would.

[Matthew Desmond]

So we expanded Social Security, we created Medicaid and Medicare. We expanded educational opportunities. These are deep investments in the poorest families in the country.

[Jon Stewart]

Right.

[Matthew Desmond]

So we need to get back to that. We can fund that by fair tax implementation. So the IRS chair a few years ago told Congress that we lose a trillion dollars a year. A trillion on tax cheating and evasion.

[Jon Stewart]

A trillion.

[Matthew Desmond]

A trillion.

[Jon Stewart]

Yeah. Those poor people are getting away with a ton.

[Matthew Desmond]

Right?

[Jon Stewart]

A trillion a year. And alleviating poverty would be 200 billion a year. What?

[Matthew Desmond]

Right.

[Jon Stewart]

Is there something in the system of federalism that means those dollars to the like? If Walmart has a 5 billion or $10 billion profit and yet still a lot of their workers are on public assistance or struggle, who might not be below poverty line, but just above it, how are we not penalizing them?

[Matthew Desmond]

Right. I think we need to move back to that question, which I think it's this, like, second piece of the puzzle. We need to have new ways of empowering the poor. We need to find a way to build worker power, to expand housing choice, to finally take on all the ways that are getting financially soaked by banks and payday lenders in the country.

[Jon Stewart]

Right?

[Matthew Desmond]

And so this is a way.

[Jon Stewart]

Why is that so hard? Is it that poor people need better lobbyists? Is that what this is like? How does this get done?

[Matthew Desmond]

They need better choice, so they're not accepting the best bad option all the time. So if you think of, like, how are we going to build worker power in this economy? So now you got to go to one Amazon warehouse or one Starbucks location at a time, Right? Remember when we were losing our minds because one Amazon warehouse in Staten island maybe organized a few summers ago? And we're like, oh, my gosh, you know? But we have no chance of organizing all our warehouse workers or baristas like this. So we have to have different approaches. So the new labor movement is saying, let's organize entire sectors. Let's get everyone in food to hospitality. If they take a vote, then that could trigger a process where the Secretary of Labor is like, all right, let's bring worker representatives, corporate representatives, let's hash something out that covers every single worker in that sector. So this is what policy wonks call sectoral bargaining. And it's a way to organize all those kind of warehouse workers, all those baristas among go.

[Jon Stewart]

Is there something too to getting the government to value labor again in the way that they value capital?

[Matthew Desmond]

Right.

[Jon Stewart]

Capital being taxed at, you know, gains that are much lower. There's a lot of rules that ease capital stock buybacks. You're only, you know, have to answer to shareholders. Is there a way to get workers in on that? Because that seems like where the accumulation of wealth seems the greatest.

[Matthew Desmond]

Right.

[Jon Stewart]

How do we plug labor into that stream without necessarily killing the stream, but letting it, really getting them into the flow of it?

[Matthew Desmond]

Yeah. Why don't we put workers on corporate boards, for example? Easy, easy.

[Jon Stewart]

Why do they fight that? And would sectoral bargaining get that done?

[Matthew Desmond]

It could move us closer to something more like a capitalism. We deserve a capitalism that serves the people, not the other way around. And a lot of the times I think the ideas we have about growth are just wrong. You know, if you rewind the clock, 1960s, we had a higher corporate tax rate, about 50%. About one in three of us were belonging to a union and we were much more productive as an economy than we are now. And we're kind of fed this lie that like we got to slash these unions, we got to slash this corporate tax break and we're going to get the economic growth and we, we win in that bargain and we got the inequality where we didn't get the growth.

[Jon Stewart]

But don't you think the financialization of our economy changed that calculus? You know, we used to think about IBM, the blue chip companies. You would invest in them and they would have steady growth and they would give you dividends and you would work for them for 40 years. You know, I was thinking, you know, if you were to reasonably watch the news networks, the little bug in the corner is the stock market.

[Matthew Desmond]

Right?

[Jon Stewart]

Right. If you go to a hospital, they plug you into a machine, it gives you your pulse, your blood pressure, you know, all that, you would be well within your rights to think that is the measure of my health.

[Matthew Desmond]

Right.

[Jon Stewart]

I'm looking at that. When you watch that, you would think, oh, that must be the measure of our economy's health.

[Matthew Desmond]

Right.

[Jon Stewart]

Is there a way to educate the public that that's not actually our economy?

[Matthew Desmond]

Right.

[Jon Stewart]

That's just a tiny fraction that goes mostly to, I don't know, the top 10% own 50% of the wealth in the stock market. What other Measures would give people a better sense of how we're failing.

[Matthew Desmond]

Right. Like, could we have a ticker that's about, you know, the number of families who went to a food pantry this month to eat. Right. A ticker that's like the number of families that lost their home. Like a. A ticker about the number of kids that can't afford a winter coat this winter, you know?

[Jon Stewart]

Yes.

[Matthew Desmond]

And kind of tracking that is like the real. The people economy.

[Jon Stewart]

How many people have parents that need elder care, but it's squeezing them. Cause their kids are going to cut. Like, give a sense of that. By the way, I reopened that cut just by hitting like that.

[Matthew Desmond]

Oh, man.

[Jon Stewart]

Just by doing that. I can't even do this anymore. Are these critique it now from the left? A little bit, yeah. Are there things that the left advocates for or does that makes this realignment harder?

[Matthew Desmond]

I just don't think the left has fully committed to poverty abolitionism, you know? You know, we know where our local organic cucumber came from, you know, but we don't wait.

[Jon Stewart]

We do. We do wait. Is it written on there? Do I have to hold it under a blue light? How do we do it?

[Matthew Desmond]

We know. All right, we know. We don't know how much the farmhand got paid picking it.

[Jon Stewart]

No.

[Matthew Desmond]

You know, if you go to London, you go to the independent stores, they have a sticker on the door and they say, this store pays a living wage. Now, our stores, we've got a lot of stickers, but we often don't have that one, you know, and so I think that more of us have to just commit.

[Jon Stewart]

You're saying we've got to put up poverty has no home here signs.

[Matthew Desmond]

I think that. I think we. I think the left needs to get more serious about economic justice.

[Jon Stewart]

And do you think I always worry. Here's what I always worry about. And I worry about this. With climate, it always comes down to, for some reason on the left, you people just have to be better people and that'll put pressure on it. I feel like the whole point of joining as a society is that. Is that a system can alleviate that. Like, I just don't know how we get out of it without it coming from legislation. I don't know. I mean, when you say, like, we've got to call our congressman, I'm like, I've been in that situation where you call congressman. It does diddly poo, right? Like, they're not even answering. And half the time they don't even know the ins and outs of what you're talking about, like the country's held together by hundreds and hundreds of legislative aides that are working tirelessly.

[Matthew Desmond]

Yeah.

[Jon Stewart]

Isn't there. Can't we present them? I would love to see you lobby in Washington because I feel like you have interesting ideas that haven't tried. We're not walking down the same tired path.

[Matthew Desmond]

Right.

[Jon Stewart]

Is that a possibility or. No, they don't. Are they open to that?

[Matthew Desmond]

Of me going to Washington?

[Jon Stewart]

Yes. People like you? I don't know.

[Matthew Desmond]

I'd have to get a tie.

[Jon Stewart]

I'd have to call. Are you. Did they at least ask?

[Matthew Desmond]

Yep. Yeah.

[Jon Stewart]

For real?

[Matthew Desmond]

Yeah. Yeah. But I think, you know, that we definitely need more political movements. We need new legislation, but we also need more skin in the game, I think, as a country. So, like, let's think about segregation. Right. So segregation is upheld by zoning laws. It's upheld by history. But it's also upheld, like at soccer games, you know, where your buddy turns you and you're like, you know, you saw that building. We're not gonna. Not gonna build that thing. Right. It's upheld a little.

[Jon Stewart]

Oh, you mean nimby. The sort of like, we all want economic justice.

[Matthew Desmond]

Yeah. For those guys.

[Jon Stewart]

If you wouldn't mind.

[Matthew Desmond]

Right.

[Jon Stewart]

But doesn't that speak to that? The systems then have to. Here's what I would say. We think of poverty as a vice and we think of entitlements as a moral hazard for vice. Why don't we view it as investment? Why don't we view like, what a great economic engine for this country to take areas that have suffered entrenched poverty and rejuvenate them.

[Matthew Desmond]

Yeah. In a different way, they're huge investments. So look at food stamps, right?

[Jon Stewart]

Yes.

[Matthew Desmond]

A billion dollars dedicated to food stamps gets you $1.5 billion in our GDP. If you look at what it does for kids, the long term economic and health benefit for kids, it's a huge return on investment. It's about $1 in food stamps. Gets you $62 coming back to you in a society. Meanwhile, when we cut the corporate tax rate, the benefits we get are a lot less. We get a lot less than we are promised often when we're doing that. So investing in American people and stabilizing communities that need it the most is the best way for all of us.

[Jon Stewart]

I gotta tell you, out of all that argument, that to me was the most concise and powerful because. And it's one that I really haven't heard, which is. You don't understand, like, we're not just giving people money. We're investing and getting a huge return. And all these corporate subsidies are not getting us a good return.

[Matthew Desmond]

Right. Exactly.

[Jon Stewart]

That's fabulous right there. That is anyone watching this, I really appreciate it. This book, if you get a chance, it will blow you. It will open your eyes to a system that can often be well meaning but not function in the manner that it purports to be functioning. And it's really a wonderfully accessible journey through that. So I really appreciate the book. Be sure to check out Poverty by America. Matthew Desmond. We're going to take a quick break. That was that's our show for tonight. Before we go, we're going to check in with your host for the rest of the week, Mr. Michael Costa. Michael, what do you got for us? Oh, John. For the rest of the week. John, that's the Trump tariffs are about to kick in and I'm worried about my wallet, specifically the money in my wallet, not my driver's license. That's been suspended for years. You're correct. Tariffs on Canada and Mexico are set to take effect, I think, tonight. Exactly. And so that's why I'm stocking up. I just bought 4,000 pounds of Maryland crab and 10,000 cans of Arizona iced tea. So I'm ready. Yeah, those are all American products. So shouldn't you have bought like Canadian and Mexican products? Or, you know, this might be all that crab and iced tea talking, but I don't think I know how tariffs work. All right, Michael Casta, everybody. It'll all work out. Here it is. Your moment is end. Everyone knows the history here, the back and forth. We understand that. We all understand that. But the question now is, can we get them to a table to negotiate? That's our goal. Don't do anything to disrupt that. And that's what Zelensky did, unfortunately, is he found every opportunity to try to Ukraine splain on every issue. Explore more shows from the Daily show podcast universe by searching the Daily Show. Wherever you get your podcasts, watch the Daily show weeknights at 1110 Central on Comedy Central and stream full episodes anytime on Paramount plus Paramount Podcasts.