Jordan Klepper Charts Trump's Long History with Epstein & Nick Offerman Sounds Alarm on National Parks | Thomas Chatterton Williams

Summary

The Daily Show: Ears Edition Episode: Jordan Klepper Charts Trump's Long History with Epstein & Nick Offerman Sounds Alarm on National Parks
Host: Jordan Klepper
Guest: Thomas Chatterton Williams
Release Date: July 16, 2025

---

Introduction

In this compelling episode of The Daily Show: Ears Edition, host Jordan Klepper delves deep into two pressing issues: former President Donald Trump's longstanding association with Jeffrey Epstein and the alarming state of America's national parks. Joined by guest Thomas Chatterton Williams and comedic actor Nick Offerman, Klepper navigates through conspiracies, environmental concerns, and the intricate web of American identity politics.

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Trump and Epstein: Unveiling the Past

[02:43] Jordan Klepper:
Klepper opens the discussion by examining the tangled relationship between Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein. He highlights the inconsistencies in the Trump administration's handling of Epstein-related files, mocking the shifting narratives around their existence:

“Files were made up by Comey. They were made up by Obama. They were made up by The Biden, you know, okay, cool.”
(02:43)

[06:44] Jordan Klepper:
Addressing Trump's claim of a decade-long friendship with Epstein, Klepper underscores the unsettling nature of their association, pointing out their proximity both socially and geographically:

“They were neighbors. Epstein said he was Trump's closest friend for 10 years. ... Epstein was a part of some major milestones in Trump's life.”
(06:57)

[08:21] Klepper Continues:
Klepper brings to light disturbing accounts from Epstein's connections, including alleged inappropriate interactions with Melania Trump:

“Epstein told author Michael Wolff, the first time he slept with Melania was on my plane.”
(08:21)

The conversation takes a satirical turn as Thomas Chatterton Williams introduces a wild conspiracy theory:

“Once you take off your Go Go Gadget blinders, you'll realize that the reason Trump was friends with Epstein was so he could investigate him.”
(12:02)

Klepper dismantles this notion with sharp wit:

“Your theory is that Trump spent the past 30 years undercover in Epstein's pedophile cabal ... you can't release the files because people would be too grateful for him.”
(13:01)

This segment masterfully blends humor with investigative journalism, keeping listeners engaged while probing serious allegations.

---

National Parks in Peril: Nick Offerman's Alarm

[16:51] Nick Offerman:
Shifting gears, Nick Offerman passionately addresses the dire state of America's national parks:

“National parks are facing a major summer staffing crisis.”
(16:51)

Offerman elaborates on the consequences of funding cuts:

“Permanent staffing is down 24% system-wide since President Trump took office. Cuts to the park system are causing chaos. Long lines, dirty bathrooms, and overflowing trash cans.”
(18:44)

[19:00] Offerman's Satire:
Offerman uses humor to highlight the absurdity of underfunding:

“America's parks are so underfunded now that they're making scientists clean the toilets like Good Will Hunting, but in reverse.”
(19:00)

He continues to emphasize the importance of national parks and the bipartisan support they once enjoyed:

“Protecting our national parks is a bipartisan issue. They are the one place where a pickup truck and a Prius look equally at home.”
(23:06)

Offerman's engaging monologue underscores the critical need for proper funding and staffing to preserve these natural treasures.

---

In-Depth Discussion: Thomas Chatterton Williams on "Summer of Our Age of Certainty"

[28:28] Jordan Klepper:
Klepper welcomes Thomas Chatterton Williams, author of the forthcoming book Summer of Our Age of Certainty and the Demise of Discourse. They explore the book's central themes, particularly the transition from the optimistic post-racial vision during Barack Obama's presidency to the divisive era epitomized by Donald Trump and the MAGA movement.

[29:28] Michael Costa (Guest):
Williams reflects on the early 21st-century hope for a multi-ethnic society:

“Barack Obama's figure kind of gave us a hint of what could be, ... there was this moment of goodwill.”
(29:28)

[31:02] Klepper and Costa Discuss Identity Politics:
The conversation delves into the complexities of identity politics and its implications:

“I find that to be kind of a real tragedy of the political culture that we've inherited since that crucial turning point...”
(31:02)

[32:56] Critique of Post-Racialism:
Williams critiques the notion of post-racialism, especially in the context of Obama's presidency and its aftermath:

“There was a moment where a lot of very well-intentioned white people ... probably felt like we've done it. ... We've decided to put race behind us.”
(32:46)

[38:09] The Summer of 2020:
Williams analyzes the tumultuous summer of 2020, marked by the COVID-19 pandemic and the killing of George Floyd, highlighting the missteps by progressive movements:

“One of the most extreme things that I think was really done by people who would be left of center and progressive was that they squandered the kind of institutional authority that they had in our mainstream institutions.”
(38:07)

[43:57] Universalism vs. Identity Fetishization:
The discussion compares American universalism to French laicité, advocating for a balanced approach that acknowledges individual identities without letting them overshadow personal experiences:

“There is no Jewish point of view. There is no woman's point of view. There are just people who come from these backgrounds...”
(46:34)

Williams emphasizes the necessity of recognizing diverse viewpoints within identity groups to foster genuine understanding and societal progress.

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Conclusion

This episode of The Daily Show: Ears Edition adeptly intertwines humor with critical analysis, offering listeners a nuanced exploration of political conspiracies and environmental crises. Through insightful dialogues and sharp comedic interludes, Jordan Klepper, alongside Nick Offerman and Thomas Chatterton Williams, provides a thought-provoking commentary on the state of American society, governance, and identity politics.

Notable Quotes:

• Jordan Klepper:
  “Wait a minute. Bravo. ... you must think you're Inspector Gadget the way you're putting all the clues together.”
  (11:25)

• Nick Offerman:
  “Let me get this straight, Mr. President. You cut 267 million to get back 90 million? Now, I'm no mathematician, but I believe that's called shitting million.”
  (22:04)

• Thomas Chatterton Williams:
  “The America that I want to achieve is like what was George Floyd's primary identity? Certainly he was black, but his black experience is not the universal black experience.”
  (43:28)

---

For those who haven't listened to this episode, the summary encapsulates the essence of the discussions, providing a clear understanding of the critical issues addressed. Whether it's unraveling the enigmatic ties between Trump and Epstein or shedding light on the vulnerabilities of our national parks, this episode promises both enlightenment and entertainment.

Transcript

[Carvana Representative]

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[Jordan Klepper]

Whoa.

[Nick Offerman]

When did I get here?

[Carvana Representative]

What do you mean?

[Nick Offerman]

I swear it was just moments ago that I accepted a great offer from Carvana online.

[Jordan Klepper]

I must have time traveled to the future.

[Carvana Representative]

It was just moments ago. We do same day pickup. Here's your check for that great offer.

[Jordan Klepper]

It is the future.

[Michael Costa]

It's.

[Carvana Representative]

It's the present. And just the convenience of Carvana. Sorry to blow your mind.

[Nick Offerman]

It's all good. Happens all the time.

[Carvana Representative]

Sell your car the convenient way to Carvana.

[Michael Costa]

Pick up.

[Carvana Representative]

Times may vary and fees may apply. On WhatsApp, no one can see or hear your personal messages. Whether it's a voice call message or sending a password to WhatsApp, it's all just this. So whether you're sharing the streaming password in the family chat or trading those late night voice messages that could basically become a podcast, your personal messages stay between you, your friends and your family. No one else, not even us. WhatsApp message privately with everyone.

[Jordan Klepper]

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[Nick Offerman]

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[Michael Costa]

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[Jordan Klepper]

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[Nick Offerman]

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Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment.

[Carvana Representative]

Of 45 dollars for three month plan equivalent to 15 dollars per month required new customer offer for first three months only. Speed slow after 35 gigabytes of networks busy. Taxes and fees extra.

[Jordan Klepper]

See mint mobile.com you're listening to Comedy.

[Nick Offerman]

Central from the most trusted journalists at Comedy Central. It's America's only source for news.

[Jordan Klepper]

This is the Daily show with your host, Jordan Kle. Welcome to the Energy Show. I'm George Glover. I gotta tell you, we got so much to talk about tonight. The government insists there's no government conspiracy. We release our own Epstein files and we go for a walk in the woods with Nick Offerman. So let's get into headlines. We are on week two maga. Civil war over the Epstein files and the Trump administration can't get its stories straight. There was a client list, then there was no client list. They were gonna release all the files and then they decided not to release any files. So let's see what today's excuse is.

[Nick Offerman]

I would say that, you know, these.

[Jordan Klepper]

Files were made up by Comey. They were made up by Obama. They were made up by The Biden, you know, okay, cool. Cool as a cucumber. This guy's not worried about a thing. So let me get this straight. According to Trump, all the top Democrats got together and said, let's create some fake files that destroy Trump's political career. They don't ever use them. They let Trump get elected, don't use them. Let Trump get elected again, still don't use them. And then once he's the president, hope he releases the files without ever looking at them. Frankly, you know, that plan sounds so inconceivably bad. I do believe the Democrats might have come up with it. But Trump clearly wants everyone just to move on. And after initially pushing back, some of them are getting the message. I think the DOJ should immediately move to unseal all the Epstein documents in the Southern District of New York. I think every file should be released to the the same way as the JFK files. Honestly, I'm done talking about Epstein. For the time being, I'm gonna trust my friends in the administration. I'm gonna trust my friends in the government to do what needs to be done. Solve it. Balls in their hands. Oh, oh, wait. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. The balls in their hands, he says. Probably not the phrase I would use when talking about the Epstein files. The ball's in their hands. The shaft is in. The taint is in the bread basket. What the are we doing here? A phrase you don't hear conspiracy theorists, free thinkers utter a whole lot is, I'm going to trust my friends in the government on this one. Clearly, this issue has MAGA on its heels, which means now is the time for Democrats to strike. Democrats, show us what you got.

[Nick Offerman]

Congressman Hank Johnson coming to give you some more ear candy. Or perhaps an earache.

[Jordan Klepper]

You've been telling us to release the power, but where are they? You know, maybe I was too harsh on the J6 choir. You know, I just feel for his poor aides who probably spent all week having to help him with this, like, Rebecca, Quick, give me a list of all the words that rhyme with suicide, please. But it's a fluid situation right now, and MAGA is trying to wrap their heads around it because they have a lot of unanswered questions.

[Carvana Representative]

There are a lot of unanswered questions, but the biggest question is just what on earth is going on? I don't know what's happening.

[Jordan Klepper]

It doesn't make sense.

[Carvana Representative]

I can't reconcile this Donald Trump with.

[Michael Costa]

The Trump that we're seeing right now.

[Carvana Representative]

The Trump that is gaslighting the public right now.

[Jordan Klepper]

Yeah, okay. Okay. You know. Yeah, this, this is a tough one. Why is Donald Trump refusing to release the Epstein files and telling everyone to shut up and move on? Well, okay, let me offer one possible theory. Perhaps you've heard of Occam's razor. It's the idea that the most simple explanation is probably the correct one. In the case of Trump and the Epstein files, Occam's giant machete. By now, you've probably heard that Donald Trump, Jeffrey Epstein, and Epstein's partner, Ghislaine Maxwell used to be friends. But it's worth understanding how close this friendship was.

[Carvana Representative]

Trump says he's known Epstein since the late 80s, and pictures from the 90s show the president with Maxwell, who became Epstein's girlfriend. They were neighbors in Palm Beach. At one point, Epstein was a member at Mar a Lago.

[Jordan Klepper]

It's party time at Donald Trump's Mar a Lago, and among the guests, Jeffrey Epstein. Trump and Epstein can be seen ogling the cheerleaders. Trump points one of them out and says, she's hot. Then he says something in Epstein's ear that has the financier doubled up in laughter. Now, okay, now. Hey, hey, hey, hey. What did Trump say? It's impossible to know. And Donald Trump and Epstein didn't just party together. They were neighbors. Epstein said he was Trump's closest friend for 10 years. In fact, Epstein's infamous little black book included 14 different numbers for Trump and his representatives. I mean, he had 14 separate ways to contact Donald Trump. I mean, when I drop my kid off at camp, I give two emergency contact numbers and one of them is fake, cuz I don't need the hassle, all right? And these guys didn't just party together. Epstein was a part of some major milestones in Trump's life. Jeffrey Epstein introduced Melania to Donald Trump.

[Carvana Representative]

Trump was a frequent passenger on Epstein's plane, known as the Lolita Express. And Epstein told author Michael Wolff, the first time he slept with Melania was on my plane.

[Jordan Klepper]

And that is how I met your mother. Barron, any questions? Any? I'll tell you, next time you're on a flight with a crying baby, just think about how much worse it could be. All right? So right now you might be thinking, fine, they were friends. They hung out. That doesn't mean Trump knew about what Epstein was doing. And you know what? Maybe not, but he clearly had some idea.

[Carvana Representative]

In a 2002 interview with New York Magazine, Trump showered praise on Epstein, calling him a quote, terrific guy and saying it is. Even said he likes beautiful women as much as I do. And many of them are on the younger side.

[Jordan Klepper]

Do you know how creepy with women you have to be for Donald Trump to pick up on it? I mean, that's a real your drunk friend taking the car keys from you moment. And you could still say, so what? They were close friends. They were Mile High club pals. That still doesn't mean that Trump is in the files. And maybe. But after Jeffrey Epstein died in prison, the only person left who knew all his secrets was Ghislaine Maxwell. And when she got charged with sex trafficking, Trump's response was surprisingly sympathetic.

[Nick Offerman]

I haven't really been following her too much. I just wish her well. Frankly, I've met her numerous times over the years, especially since I lived in Palm beach. And I guess they lived than Palm beach, but I wish her well, whatever it is.

[Jordan Klepper]

You wish her well. Is that the right response? I think there's a reason they don't have that section in the Hallmark store. It's not there. It's not. Let's be clear. Law and order. SVU doesn't start like in the criminal justice system. Sexually based offenses, especially heinous, and we wish the perpetrators well. Dun dun. Okay, you know what? You know what? You want to take another shot at it? Maybe. Maybe even more flailing and desperate. Yeah.

[Nick Offerman]

I wish you well. I'd wish you well.

[Michael Costa]

I'd wish a lot of people well.

[Nick Offerman]

And I do wish you well. I'm not looking for anything bad for her. I'm not looking bad for anybody.

[Jordan Klepper]

What are you talking about? You wish bad things on everybody. Suddenly you're wishing Ghislaine well. You were harder on Kristen Stewart for cheating on Robert Pattinson. Okay, all right, all right, all right. So. So to sum up to all the MAGA people who are so confused about why Trump doesn't want to release any of these files, maybe the answer has something to do with Occam's giant machete. Bravo.

[Nick Offerman]

Wait a minute.

[Thomas Chatterton Williams]

Bravo, Jordan.

[Jordan Klepper]

Wait a minute. Bravo. Bravo. I know that sarcastic clap. Is that. Is that Michael Costa? Yes, Michael Costa. Michael Costa. Apparently I'm Mar a Lago, everyone. Michael.

[Thomas Chatterton Williams]

That's right. I'm Michael Costa. And you must think you're Inspector Gadget the way you're putting all the clues together, huh? But the fact is you're just talking out of your Go Go Gadget ass.

[Jordan Klepper]

Okay, I don't think that's fair, Michael. I've laid out a pretty good trail of Trump and Epstein's decades long friendship.

[Thomas Chatterton Williams]

Sorry, I barely recognize you in your tinfoil hat. Hey, Klepper, you're just like all the other conspiracy theorists. Stringing red yarn between random. You think you're Sherlock Holmes, but really you're just talking out of your Go Go Gadget ass.

[Jordan Klepper]

Yeah, okay, okay. All right, all right, all right, all right, smarty pants. Why do you think Trump was just so close to Epstein?

[Thomas Chatterton Williams]

It's so obvious, Jordan. Once you take off your Go Go Gadget blinders, you'll realize that the reason Trump was friends with Epstein was so he could investigate him. He knew from the very beginning that Epstein was trouble. And as a concerned citizen, Donald Trump melania on, you know, laying low.

[Jordan Klepper]

Okay, okay, but if Donald Trump was working to expose Epstein, why doesn't he just say it?

[Thomas Chatterton Williams]

Because he's a humble man, Jordan. If the world found out he was the one who exposed the world's most notorious sex trafficker, he would get so much praise, love, and attention, and that's the last thing Donald J. Trump would want.

[Jordan Klepper]

He didn't expose anything. Epstein killed himself in prison.

[Thomas Chatterton Williams]

Yeah, well, and you can thank Donald Trump for that. Who do you think talked Epstein into it? My man Donnie T went into his cell and said, listen up, you ugly mug. The game's up. See, we got you dead to rights. So do yourself a favor, punch your own ticket before we put you in the chair and give you the juice.

[Jordan Klepper]

See? Okay, all right, so let me get this straight. Your theory is that Trump spent the past 30 years undercover in Epstein's pedophile cabal, which he was not actually part of, to get evidence to convict Jeffrey Epstein, who Trump convinced to kill himself. But he can't release the files because people would be too grateful for him. Well, well, well.

[Thomas Chatterton Williams]

Look who finally connected all the clues. Mr. Detective Col. Looks like Mr. Murder She Wrote finally pulled his Nancy Drew head out of his Go Go Gadget ass.

[Jordan Klepper]

Michael Costa, everybody. Stop slapping. Stop slapping. Stop. When we come back, Nick Offerman will give us his opinion. Don't go.

[Carvana Representative]

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[Jordan Klepper]

Episode is brought to you by LifeLock. Between two factor authentication, strong passwords, and a VPN, you try to be in control of how your info is protected. But many other places also have it and they might not be as careful. That's why LifeLock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second for threats. If your identity is stolen, they'll fix it, guaranteed, or your money back. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit lifelock.com podcast for 40% off. Terms apply. Welcome back to the Daily Show. We all know I've got great opinions, but I'm not the only one. Studies show that other people also have opinions. So here with another installment of In My Opinion is our good friend and Nick Offerman.

[Nick Offerman]

Hello, I am stage and screen luminary Nick Offerman, and I'd like to say the phrase that everyone loves hearing. Do you have a moment to talk about the environment? I have several undeniable loves in my life. The oaky notes of a barrel aged whiskey, an old fashioned plumb bob dangling over a red cedar plank. My blushing bride's hoo ha. And of course, America's national parks. Our beautiful national parks were the brainchild of Theodore Roosevelt, Teddy if you're nasty, and environmentalist John Muir, who you may recognize as the old man in Home Alone. America's national parks, as the kids say, slay now. I've spent much of my life in their splendor. I've written several books about them. And thanks to the parks, my parents never had to teach me about the birds and the bees. They just took me to look at Old Faithful. I got it. But that's why it brings me great sorrow to report these pastoral gifts to America are under attack. National parks are facing a major summer staffing crisis.

[Michael Costa]

Staffing cuts under President Trump and cost cutting by doge have left parks struggling.

[Carvana Representative]

Permanent staffing is down 24% system wide since President Trump took office. Cuts to the park system are causing Chaos. Long lines, dirty bathrooms, and overflowing trash cans.

[Michael Costa]

Even scientists now have to help clean.

[Nick Offerman]

Toilets due to severe shortages. That's right. America's parks are so underfunded now that they're making scientists clean the toilets like Good Will Hunting, but in reverse. Now, this is a huge mistake. No scientist has the strength to clean the skid marks of a man who's been eating beans and campfire hot dogs for the past three days. They're weak. This is no way to treat America's park rangers. They are already underpaid despite being highly skilled. Our park rangers have to traverse miles of treacherous terrain, stand up to dangerous wildlife, and glue all the leaves back on the trees every spring. You thought they grew back? Read a book. These rangers are doing everything they can to keep the parks going. And I mean everything.

[Carvana Representative]

A TikTok influencer is proving once again that sex sells, even when it comes to, yes, national parks. Kim Tanner is behind a trend called Park Talk, which features risque videos and raunchy song lyrics to promote awareness of the parks. Tanner says that she's concerned about federal funding cuts and new mining activity.

[Jordan Klepper]

Yikes.

[Nick Offerman]

Rangers are stripping people. I'm worried. We're just about two months away from seeing the Grand Canyon on OnlyFans because it shows whole and it does rim to rim action. Color Me subscribed now. True. Our parks need to make money to function. And to make matters worse, President Trump's one big, beautiful bill just cut another 267 million from the national park's budget. How will he make up that money, you ask? I'll tell you the only way he knows. By shaking down foreigners.

[Carvana Representative]

President Trump just increased the price to get into national parks, but only if you're from a foreign country.

[Nick Offerman]

The national parks will be about America first.

[Carvana Representative]

The increase is estimated to bring in an additional $90 million to the Department of Interior's budget.

[Nick Offerman]

Let me get this straight, Mr. President. You cut 267 million to get back 90 million? Now, I'm no mathematician, but I believe that's called shitting million. But then again, I didn't go to Wharton Business College. If money is all you're concerned about, there is great news, Mr. President. These parks actually make a ton of green. In 2023, national parks brought a record $55.6 billion to the US economy, supporting more than 415,000, a record breaking 331.

[Carvana Representative]

Million visits across hundreds of sites last year alone.

[Nick Offerman]

330 million visits. That's over five times more visitors than Disney World.

[Jordan Klepper]

Yeah.

[Nick Offerman]

Plus the Mice in our national parks would never debase themselves by participating in the culinary atrocity that is character breakfast. I'm sorry that you flunked out of Juilliard, Mickey, but you stay the away from my eggs. That is the true miracle of our national parks. It is an affordable vacation that everyone can take inside our own borders. Whether you're traveling with your family or abandoning your constituents during a cris. Protecting our national parks is a bipartisan issue. They are the one place where a pickup truck and a Prius look equally at home. All Americans use our parks. Conservatives, liberals, libertarians, from Rand Paul to the birds that live in Rand Paul's hair. In fact, President Trump, even you have talked about our parks fondly and almost remembered their names. We want every American child to have access to pristine outdoor spaces. When young Americans experience the breathtaking beauty of the Grand Canyon, when they gaze upon Yosemites. Yosemites.

[Jordan Klepper]

Um.

[Nick Offerman]

It'S Yosemite. Yo, Semites is what a bad undercover cop might say to a group of Hasidic Jews. Yo, Semites, you want to buy a bag of goofballs? So look, we can only hope that the President takes his own advice and protects our country's majesty with adequate staffing and funding. It's America. The beautiful purple mountain majesty. Amber waves of grain, A little bit of chicken fried cold beer on a Friday night. A pair of jeans that fit just right and the radio up. I may have gotten my songs mixed up. The point is, if we don't protect our natural beauty, what is even left to sing about? Because let's face it, America without its national parks is like McDonald's without the hamburgers. You can still go there, I guess, but at that point it's kind of just a bathroom. Bathroom. But that's just my opinion.

[Jordan Klepper]

We go for the number one. Go see more of Nick is an incredible movie sovereign and theater show. Welcome back. Thomas Cheddar Williams. If you're joining me on the show, don't go away.

[Michael Costa]

Rated T for teen.

[Jordan Klepper]

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[Michael Costa]

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[Jordan Klepper]

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[Michael Costa]

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[Jordan Klepper]

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[Michael Costa]

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[Nick Offerman]

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[Carvana Representative]

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[Jordan Klepper]

Welcome back to the Daily Show. My guest tonight is a staff writer at the Atlantic and author of the forthcoming book Summer of Our the Age of Certainty and the Demise of Discourse. Please welcome Thomas Chatterton Williams. A lot of big ideas in this book, Thomas. I want to jump into some of these. Alright. You look specifically at the summer of 2020, but this book takes us back a little bit about the promise of Barack Obama and talks about this promise of post racialism and how the failures, I believe you say the failures to take action in that or to find this moment of post racialism. You could draw a direct line from that to this era of Trump and Maga. Explain that me a little bit.

[Michael Costa]

Yeah, I think we had a moment in the beginning of this century when the country seemed to come. Not everyone in the country, but a plurality of people in the country, maybe even a slim majority of people in the country really wanted to put the past oppressions and biases behind us and create this multi ethnic society. That Barack Obama's figure kind of gave us a hint of what could be, you know, and so there was this moment of goodwill. And even there were polls in Gallup that a majority of McCain voters even thought that this was an inspiring moment. Even in loss and that fake news.

[Jordan Klepper]

I don't believe that for seconds. There was a moment where people on the other side were like, this is still inspiring.

[Michael Costa]

It's hard to believe.

[Jordan Klepper]

I don't remember.

[Michael Costa]

It was a different country. It might have been a temporary moment, but there was a moment when people seemed to want to change, transcend the kind of conflicts that we had been plagued by in the previous century. And Barack Obama's figure was this special charismatic kind of idea of a post Racial future embodied in the president. And I think that we had a chance, but it didn't last so long.

[Jordan Klepper]

So what?

[Michael Costa]

It didn't last so long.

[Jordan Klepper]

Well, you mentioned in here that this sort of sort of clicked with you. You're a teacher as well, with the disconnect you had with your students, is that correct?

[Michael Costa]

Yeah. I'm about 20 years older than the undergrads that I teach and they can't remember the Obama era. This idea that there was a moment where we would become now it seems naive to say post racial.

[Jordan Klepper]

And a post racial is such a loaded term now. It almost feels antiquated.

[Michael Costa]

It feels antiquated and people don't really take you seriously if you say you believe in post racialism. But there was a moment when that seemed to point to something that we could become. That seemed to be a kind of. It was downstream of Martin Luther King's idea of the mountaintop, you know, and that we would meet each other and judge each other by the contents of our character. It seemed, when it was earnestly embraced, like a vision of America, that we were moving towards the arc of history, bent towards justice, you know, and that was a moment that I don't believe that the Gen Z students, and soon to be the Gen Alpha students that I teach, like, have direct contact with. And so it seems like abstract history to them. And when I try to kind of evoke that in the classroom, that sense of optimism that we had, that hope and change when Barack Obama said, you know, we're not, you know, we're not red states, we're not blue states, we're the United States of America, there was a moment where I truly believe in that because I came up when that kind of defined the political possibilities of my generation. And I noticed this absence with the young kids, with the young adults that I teach undergrad now. And I find that to be kind of a real tragedy of the political culture that we've inherited since that crucial turning point when we reached this fork in the road where we could have gone to this nicer, more perfected union.

[Jordan Klepper]

How could we have done that? Because, I mean, this book is critical of the left and the way in which they handled that movement. Right. Like, how do you see, what are the criticisms you see in the way that the left and Obama handled that movement? And where was the actual space for a post racial America?

[Michael Costa]

That's a very good question. I think that there was a space where, and you might call this also, you know, I think there's a lot of room to Push back and critique this. But I think there was a.

[Jordan Klepper]

Give me a shot.

[Michael Costa]

There was a moment where I think a lot of very well intentioned white people, let's call them, you know, white liberals. Sure.

[Jordan Klepper]

I'm tracking. Yes.

[Michael Costa]

Where a lot of them probably felt like we've done it. You know, we've really done it. We've decided to put race behind us and identity behind us. Right. And so we've elected somebody who is embodying that new America that we're, that we're moving towards. And there is a chance to really be post racial. But I think there were several missteps and I can understand how they happened and I think it's a tragedy how they happened. But one of the real inflection points that I tried to get into in the book is when Barack Obama said, you know, if I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon Martin. And at the time that it happened, I didn't really appreciate that that was a rhetorical mystery step. I think that I really understand what he was trying to say. But I can also see now in retrospect how we had elected Barack Obama and we had believed that we were moving past race and we had believed that we were moving past these divisions. It's appalling that a boy is stalked and killed because that's an appalling thing to do, full stop. And I think that when he injected the kind of identity angle into it, people said we haven't actually become post race at all. In fact, this is a kind of identity angle. And I feel excluded from this. I try to think of the example of, think of Lakin Riley, who was this young woman in Georgia who was murdered by an undocumented immigrant. Imagine if Donald Trump said, if I had a daughter, she'd look like Lake and Riley. That could actually really be explosively divisive. Not to say that he's not explosively divisive every day.

[Jordan Klepper]

Don't make me think, but think about.

[Michael Costa]

What that would inject into the conversation about it. Almost a kind of white nationalism, you know.

[Jordan Klepper]

That'S what it would begin. Well, I mean, I think that's a curious point there. Right. But Lincoln Riley is somebody who has, from my perspective, been weaponized by the right.

[Michael Costa]

Absolutely.

[Jordan Klepper]

As a victim that the left doesn't see. And I remember that moment with Barack Obama and Trayvon Martin. And from my perspective, it felt like very powerful moments when Barack Obama saw himself and his family in this victim here. My memory of it was less that he brought race to that situation. I feel like he had an entire media ecosystem on the right that was making Barack Obama the black president.

[Michael Costa]

Absolutely.

[Jordan Klepper]

That was consistently projecting this and race baiting and fear mongering. And so in some ways, it felt like that moment was like a necessary moment of inclusion. That identity. He didn't bring up identity. Identity was somewhat thrust on him as a weapon.

[Michael Costa]

Well, it shows how little leeway he had and how there was no room for any mishap. And that's what I think is the tragedy of his presidency, actually. It was always too much for one person. Even as magnificent and excellent and I think as elegant a person as he was, it was too much for one person to ever be able to handle. Because the moment anybody could kind of put a misstep on you, then it was much more extreme and much more significant than it would have been for another president.

[Jordan Klepper]

But you still see there's a moment of hope in that.

[Michael Costa]

I really do.

[Jordan Klepper]

That give you ultimate hope that there's space there or does it ultimately depress you because that was a missed opportunity?

[Michael Costa]

Both, I think I have to call myself a pess apt, you know. Yeah, but both. You can't just be one or the other. And I think that the vision of America that I was exposed to, I can never forget. And so I have to be an optimist as long as I know that that moment existed and I lived it. The night he won in 2008, in November, I was in Fort Greene, Brooklyn, walking through the streets. I've never seen such civic pride. And the thing I felt in the streets that day is the country that I believe we will one day have back. I think it's really under siege. I think it's the most dangerous moment I've ever lived through now. But having glimpsed that, I don't believe the future belongs to Donald Trump and the movement he's trying to bring in. I really can't accept that.

[Jordan Klepper]

I think it's the main. The big chunk of this book looks really at the summer of 2020, and it's fascinating to look back at something that feels in some ways like it was a month ago. In some ways it feels like 100 years ago. But you really walk through it from a critical eye towards what the progressive response to that was. And I think you're very clear about, like, you don't hold back on your critiques of the left, but make it clear that in order for people to find that step, perhaps away from Donald Trump, you need to be pretty clear eyed about the mistakes that you Specifically in the summer of 2020. What do you see those major missteps as well?

[Michael Costa]

Where do you. How much time you got?

[Jordan Klepper]

Well, I mean, like, you focus on. That was such a chaotic time. You're looking at Covid and you're looking at George Floyd. Yeah, right. Talk to me about George Floyd and where you see the flaws of the left in the response to George Floyd.

[Michael Costa]

Sure. So you have really. Thank you for bringing that. You have a confluence of events. You have the pandemic, which makes possible a kind of reaction to this like, horrific videotaped execution that really looks. It's a nine minute long slow death that's recorded. So that happens at a moment when everybody is at home, sidelined from their normal lives with a lot of time and attention and glued to these screens that homogenize all of our shared reality. And then hanging above that, you have the specter of Donald Trump telling people to ingest bleach and to shine light on themselves as a way of fighting an epidemic that we still don't fully understand and terrorizing the body politic. So you have this kind of moment where so many missteps were made. But one of the most extreme things that I think was really done by people who would be left of center and progressive was that they squandered the kind of institutional authority that they had in our mainstream institutions. They squandered trust. So you have epidemiologists and public health authorities saying one day that you, you really can't be outside because you know, it's too dangerous to mask collectively and people are trying to kill your grandmother if they're outside or if they're trying to, you know, if they're.

[Jordan Klepper]

Don't you have sympathy for that? That was a fluid situation.

[Michael Costa]

Of course I have sympathy for that. But what I don't have as much sympathy for is that the next day after George Floyd dies tragically, is that then it's like racism is also an epidemic. And you actually must be outside now because we actually have to protest against this other pandemic. And the risk is now tolerable. It's either the COVID 19 doesn't discriminate based on which ideological standpoint you're at. You know, so that was a very. That was a major mistake by the kind of public health messaging that was picked up by other outlets on the left. Then you had the kind of reporting that I think was a massive, massive, massive squandering of institutional authority. I think maybe people in this audience remember a chyron that said Fiery, but mostly peaceful protests. I don't think that people, people who lived through seeing cities burn and, you know, downtown New York City, SoHo, it was getting crazy in SoHo sometimes. Yeah, you know, all of the stores were boarded up. There were police guards outside of Nike. You know, there were people were looting. To say it's one thing to say that that's sometimes what happens, you know, but it's another thing to say that this isn't happening. You're not. Don't believe your lying eyes. You know, it's really mostly peaceful. It's really. Kenosha is not burning.

[Jordan Klepper]

You feel that that's embedded in some of the frustrations that the MAGA movement picked up.

[Michael Costa]

I don't think it justifies, you know, I think, you know, they, you know, there's. There's ways of responding to something that's not right, that goes so far beyond an appropriate response that they create a new problem that's far greater than the original offense.

[Jordan Klepper]

But at the time, though, at the time, you do see a left who is like, you're advocating for a more rational response. Yes, but it felt like it was an irrational time.

[Michael Costa]

Very much so.

[Jordan Klepper]

With a person in charge who was fear mongering, giving you false information, who was race baiting. With all of the moments with what was happening with George Floyd and that. I know that you're against elements of the identity politics and how the Democrats have clung to it, but it didn't feel like, at the time, it didn't feel like that was the choice Democrats were making. It felt like that was the reality they were embracing and had a real earnest desire to use that moment and to use that anger to try to enact some kind of change. I know you don't think that was done correctly, but what do you do with that energy in a moment that is so irrational?

[Michael Costa]

It's a very good question. I think that in retrospect, it's very easy to judge a lot of things in the moment. You know, I think that emotion and a sense of solidarity can be very compelling, but they can also cloud judgment. You know, I think that there's something ludicrous when you look back at now, Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer kneeling in Kenty cloth. Yeah, it's a weird look.

[Jordan Klepper]

It's a weird look. It's not a good look. It didn't fit correctly either as well. I mean, they didn't do very well.

[Michael Costa]

It's a weird look. But you can understand this kind of. We all feel this impulse to empathize with the victim. But what I'm trying to get at in this book is like, the America that I want to achieve is like, what was George Floyd's primary identity? Certainly he was black, but his black experience is not the universal black experience. First and foremost, his identity was that this was a poor man. This was a man out of work. This was a man who was broken by police and was able to be violated in the way he was because he had no socioeconomic protection. And I think that to talk about it only as a matter of identity actually limits our ability to engage non black people in the struggle, which is that no American should be okay with law enforcement being able to break somebody, especially. Especially a poor person without any resources, the way that they broke George Floyd.

[Jordan Klepper]

Whatever color you are, do you see a space? Is there a space in the middle? Is there a space between. No. Identity politics and identity politics that someone is walking right now or you see as a potential lane for somebody to walk?

[Michael Costa]

I think so. I think the way you and I are talking, I'm cognizant of the fact that you seem to be descended from Europeans, though I would never. I would never assume.

[Jordan Klepper]

That is. That is the kindest way to address my race. Cognizant of the fact that you are a pasty mother.

[Michael Costa]

But what I would. I would like it to tell me as little about you as possible. I would like that to be as. I would like to not make assumptions based on that, on those superficial identity markers that I see. I want to understand you as an individual. I want to understand where you come from. I want to understand what experiences you've had in America and not just assume things based on the texture of your hair, the color of your eyes and your epidermis. And that's really what.

[Jordan Klepper]

I will say. Like, there's a lot in this. I found this book really challenging and fascinating. I very much enjoyed it. And something you talk about, you spend a lot of your time in France is the ways in which a place like how the French see identity compared to how Americans see identity. And like, what are some of the takeaways you have of looking at what American identity politics is from the point of view of somebody who spent so much time in a place like France.

[Michael Costa]

Yeah. So I wrote an article in the Atlantic a few years ago about the kind of ideal society would be someplace in between France and America. You know, France has this commitment to universalism and what they call laicite and this idea that there's just the French citizen and you leave everything for The Jew privately, but nothing for the Jew collectively as a group. That's how it kind of originated. And then now with Islam and Muslims, this kind of idea that you leave that ethnic or religious identity in your home, outside everybody's a French citizen. This has a lot of strengths to it. They don't actually. They've struck the word race from all. The government doesn't recognize racial difference. But that's actually kind of like where you would say, if you had to say, what's the ideal society you would like to get to? You would say, in theory, I would like to get to that society. But in practice, you actually don't know how many French citizens of architecture of descent are in jail and how the criminal justice system operates.

[Jordan Klepper]

Yeah. So by doing that, you don't have any awareness of what the patterns are with.

[Michael Costa]

Yeah, exactly. So you have some real drawbacks to that. But you would have to say that I would like to get there as opposed to a kind of society where we permanently kind of fetishize our differences and think that, you know, like, here I am a descendant of slaves, here you are a descendant of slave masters.

[Jordan Klepper]

I like the earlier descriptor you used.

[Michael Costa]

And that we can never kind of understand each other and there's an epistemological divide between us. You would have to say that you would want to get to the society of the universal citizen. But in practice, there are some real stumbling blocks. And sometimes the kind of American way of speaking as a. Has a place. So I think what you're talking about is a kind of nuanced approach that recognizes and respects identity differences, differences, but doesn't make that the whole game and doesn't ever allow that to occlude the ability of the individual to, you know, what about the minority within the minority? I think sometimes when we talk about differences of identity, we forget that there are Muslims who disagree about what the proper direction of Islam is. There are blacks who have very powerful critiques of affirmative action and reparation. There are Jews who see the war in Gaza completely differently. So there is no Jewish point of view. There is no woman's point of view. There are just people who come from these backgrounds and have lots of competing viewpoints from 2020. The example that I really take about this is that for a moment, there was so much understandable empathy about policing that people said, this is terrible. Black people are being killed in the streets by police. We have to do something about it. Okay, let's defund or even in some cases, abolish the police. Because that would be what's in black people's favor. And then suddenly the homicides go up. You really have serious consequences in Minneapolis and other places that experimented with this stuff. And you have this inconvenient result that a lot of black people are screaming and saying, bring the police back. I'm the one getting shot here. My daughter is getting shot here. There is no black point of view that agrees on that. So you actually have to listen to differing viewpoints. People don't have a monolithic kind of identity. And so I think that is what is the risk in a kind of American identity forward, multi ethnic society where you stay in your corner, I stay in my corner. When I'm speaking, you listen to me because I have some epistemological advantage over you that's based on ancestry and can't be bridged. So I think the ideal society has a softer approach than the French, who can be too tough with their universalism, but never kind of skews too far into fetishizing the difference the way that we do now.

[Jordan Klepper]

Well, it's truly a fascinating read and I appreciate most of this conversation. The slave owner thing, maybe not as much, but a great show, Thomas.

[Michael Costa]

Thank you.

[Jordan Klepper]

Thank you so much. Summer of Our Vista test is out August 5th and available to pre order. Thomas Sanderton Williams. Gonna take a quick break. Be right back after that. That's our show for tonight. Now here it is. Your moment is in.

[Michael Costa]

Mr. Epstein was a sex trafficker. I think it's reasonable for the American.

[Nick Offerman]

People to ask.

[Michael Costa]

Who he sexed, trafficked these young women.

[Nick Offerman]

To explore more shows from the Daily show podcast universe by searching the Daily Show.

[Jordan Klepper]

Wherever you get your podcasts, watch the.

[Nick Offerman]

Daily show weeknights at 1110 Central on Comedy Central and stream full episodes anytime on Paramount. Plus, this has been a Comedy Central podcast.