Saudi Arabia Gives Trump the Royal Treatment With McDonald's & a Mid-Meeting Nap | Matt Wolf

Summary

The Daily Show: Ears Edition - Detailed Episode Summary

Episode Title: Saudi Arabia Gives Trump the Royal Treatment With McDonald's & a Mid-Meeting Nap | Matt Wolf
Release Date: May 14, 2025
Host: Jordan Klepper and Michael Kosta
Guests: Matt Wolf (Filmmaker)
Podcast Network: iHeartPodcasts and Paramount Podcasts

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1. Introduction

The episode opens with a brief advertisement promoting "Four Seasons," a new Netflix series starring comedy icons like Tina Fey and Steve Carell. The hosts, Jordan Klepper and Michael Kosta, then segue into the main topics of discussion, setting the stage for a night filled with political satire and insightful commentary.

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2. President Trump's Lavish Saudi Arabia Visit

2.1. Grand Entrances and Personal Touches

President Donald Trump's recent trip to Saudi Arabia is the focal point of the initial discussion. Michael Kosta humorously highlights the extravagance of the welcome Trump received:

Michael Kosta [01:57]: "Hasan Piker suggests that Democrats try to win. And President Trump is out of the country. So someone lock the doors."

Upon landing, Trump was greeted with an opulent display, including a horse escort and a full brass band, culminating in his walk down a famed purple carpet:

Jordan Klepper [02:00]: "A horse escort. I gotta say, when you hear that Trump got a horse escort, this is the best version of that story."

The hosts mock the lengthy and potentially uncomfortable walk Trump had on the purple carpet, poking fun at his endurance and preferences.

2.2. McDonald's Mobile Truck and Cultural Nuances

Saudi Arabia went the extra mile by deploying a McDonald's mobile truck to cater to Trump's known fondness for the fast-food chain:

Michael Kosta [04:03]: "Saudi Arabia had a McDonald's mobile truck come on site so that President Trump could have his favorite McDonald's. Perfect."

This gesture underscores the lengths to which Saudi Arabia is willing to go to accommodate Trump, blending official protocol with personal indulgences.

2.3. The Coffee Conundrum

A lighter yet telling moment occurs when Trump is seen holding his coffee untouched:

Michael Kosta [05:16]: "While everyone else drank theirs, Donald Trump just held his in his hand the whole time. Look at that. Look at that, right?"

The hosts humorously speculate that Trump might have been conserving his gut biome, avoiding unfamiliar coffee that could disrupt his routine.

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3. Allegations of Bribery and Conflict of Interest

3.1. Qatar's $400 Million Gift

The conversation shifts to a controversial $400 million gift from Qatar—a luxury 747 jumbo jet intended to serve as Air Force One until the end of Trump's term, after which it would be donated to the Trump Library:

Michael Kosta [07:20]: "We turn to the uproar over the $400 million gift from the government of Qatar tonight. A luxury 747 jumbo jet to be used as Air Force One until the end of Trump's term."

The hosts question the constitutionality and ethical implications of such a gift, suggesting it borders on bribery.

3.2. Attorney General Pam Bondi's Defense

Addressing the legality, Attorney General Pam Bondi defends the gift:

Jordan Klepper [08:43]: "Attorney General Pam Bondi says the gift is, quote, legally permissible and not a bribe because Trump isn't giving Qatar anything in return."

However, skepticism arises given Bondi's previous role as a foreign lobbyist for Qatar:

Michael Kosta [09:08]: "Bondi previously worked as a foreign lobbyist for the nation of Qatar, earning about $115,000 a month."

This connection casts doubt on the impartiality of her statement, hinting at potential conflicts of interest.

3.3. Trump's Family and Foreign Real Estate Ties

Further complicating the narrative are the Trump sons' lucrative real estate ventures in Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and the UAE:

Jordan Klepper [07:20]: "His sons, who now run the Trump Organization, have lucrative real estate in all three countries the President is visiting."

Kosta jests about Qatar's motives for choosing these specific countries for Trump's visit, insinuating business conflicts may be at play:

Michael Kosta [07:28]: "I never thought I'd say this, but can't these countries go back to doing something more constructive, like funding terrorism?"

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4. Hasan Piker and the Left-Wing Struggle to Engage Young Male Voters

4.1. The Rise of the Left's Manosphere

Michael Kosta introduces a segment focusing on the challenges the left faces in connecting with young male voters. He brings in progressive commentator Hasan Piker, who discusses the "manosphere"—a network of online spaces promoting bro culture and influencing young men's political leanings.

Michael Kosta [13:31]: "Michael reached out to Hasan Piker to discuss whether the left can create a 'left-wing manosphere' to engage young men."

4.2. The Impact of Social Media Algorithms

Kosta presents findings from a study where generic TikTok accounts for 16 to 18-year-old boys were exposed to extreme, anti-feminist content within minutes:

Michael Kosta [15:13]: "A recent Study created generic TikTok accounts for imaginary 16 to 18 year old boys to see how the algorithm acted. And within 23 minutes, they were fed masculine, anti feminist, extremist content."

Hasan Piker suggests that the left needs to adopt similar strategies to appeal to this demographic without vilifying them:

Hasan Piker [14:15]: "The left could, I don't know, talk to dudes without vilifying them."

4.3. The Challenges of Body Fascism

The discussion delves into the concept of "body fascism," where the left critiques any focus on aesthetics, making it harder to engage with young men who are influenced by content emphasizing physical appearance.

Hasan Piker [14:59]: "I think it's like a lot of leftists hate other leftists. Any sort of consideration about the aesthetics of how you look is actually another way to, I guess, reinforce an unjustifiable hierarchy."

Kosta humorously vents his disdain for this concept:

Michael Kosta [15:11]: "To be fair, that's why I don't workout. Because I'm anti body fascism."

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5. Matt Wolf's Documentary on Pee Wee Herman

5.1. Introduction to the Documentary

Transitioning from political satire, the episode features an interview with Matt Wolf, the filmmaker behind the HBO documentary "Pee Wee: As Himself." The documentary explores the life and legacy of Paul Reubens, the man behind the iconic character Pee Wee Herman.

Michael Kosta [19:53]: "My guest tonight is an award-winning filmmaker whose new HBO documentary is called Pee Wee: As Himself."

5.2. Creative Tensions with Paul Reubens

Wolf discusses the complexities of directing the documentary, highlighting the creative tensions between him and Reubens:

Matt Wolf [20:06]: "We were a little competitive in the process because Paul was somebody who totally separated himself from his alter ego, Pee Wee Herman, and I was sort of asking him to bring those two things together."

These tensions were exacerbated by Reubens' desire for creative control and his reluctance to address personal controversies.

5.3. Balancing Artistic Vision and Personal Narrative

The documentary aims to portray Reubens as both the beloved character and the man behind it, delving into his personal struggles and triumphs:

Matt Wolf [20:14]: "I want to make a portrait of an artist... The harder part is to really look inward. Who are you really as a person who the world doesn't know, even though your character is so iconic?"

5.4. Challenges Faced During Production

Wolf recounts the difficulties in maintaining a collaborative relationship, especially as Reubens grappled with personal issues and health challenges that were not publicly known during filming:

Matt Wolf [21:47]: "There was a time where we weren't working together... it was only at the end, before Paul died, that I was able to talk to him."

Despite these challenges, Wolf remained committed to portraying Reubens' true essence, aiming to honor both his public persona and private self.

5.5. The Impact of "Pee Wee: As Himself"

The documentary not only explores Reubens' life but also serves as a homage to "Pee Wee's Playhouse," highlighting its groundbreaking approach to children's entertainment by blending inclusivity and creativity:

Michael Kosta [22:56]: "It's a show about inclusivity without making that direct focus, like, it still feels cutting edge."

Wolf emphasizes the lasting influence of the show on his own life and its universal appeal to both children and adults.

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6. Conclusion and Final Remarks

The episode wraps up with a humorous anecdote about Jordan Klepper's interactions during Trump's visit, blending personal experiences with political commentary. The hosts remind listeners about the upcoming documentary release and tease future content, maintaining the show's signature blend of humor and insight.

Michael Kosta [26:59]: "I saw the doc. Two part doc. People are clamoring for it. There's a lot of love for Pee Wee Herman and Paul Reubens."

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Michael Kosta [01:57]: "Hasan Piker suggests that Democrats try to win. And President Trump is out of the country. So someone lock the doors."

• Jordan Klepper [02:00]: "A horse escort. I gotta say, when you hear that Trump got a horse escort, this is the best version of that story."

• Michael Kosta [07:20]: "We turn to the uproar over the $400 million gift from the government of Qatar tonight. A luxury 747 jumbo jet to be used as Air Force One until the end of Trump's term."

• Matt Wolf [20:14]: "I want to make a portrait of an artist... The harder part is to really look inward. Who are you really as a person who the world doesn't know, even though your character is so iconic?"

• Hasan Piker [14:15]: "The left could, I don't know, talk to dudes without vilifying them."

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Final Thoughts

This episode of The Daily Show: Ears Edition masterfully intertwines political satire with deep-dive interviews, offering listeners both laughter and thoughtful commentary. From dissecting the opulence of Trump's Saudi visit to exploring the left's struggle to engage young men, and culminating in an intimate look at Paul Reubens through Matt Wolf's documentary, the episode provides a multifaceted exploration of contemporary issues and cultural narratives.

Transcript

[Jordan Klepper]

You're listening to an iHeart podcast. Three couples, four vacations, a lot to unpack. Watch the Four Seasons, a new series starring our comedy favorites Tina Fey, Steve Carell, Will Forte, Colman Domingo and more in a hilarious and heartfelt love letter to long term relationships based on the original Alan Alda film. Watch the Four Seasons streaming now only on Netflix. You're listening to Comedy Central.

[Michael Kosta]

From the.

[Jordan Klepper]

Most trusted journalists at Comedy Central. It's America's only source for news. This is the Daily show with your host, Jordan Lover.

[Michael Kosta]

We got so much to talk about tonight. Qatar is bribing the friendly skies. Hasan Piker suggests that Democrats try to win. And President Trump is out of the country. So someone lock the doors. Let's get into all of it with our new segment, Trump meets worlds international humiliation. One after another. You know what? Being an American president is hard. People criticize your policies. They nitpick your moral deficiencies. Every time you even suggest removing habeas corpus, people start whining, no, we need that. Boo. You know, sometimes you just want to go somewhere where people don't pick apart your flaws and they treat you like a king.

[Jordan Klepper]

Overnight, President Trump touching down in Saudi Arabia escorted by military jets. A lavish welcome for his first visit to the Middle east since his re election.

[Michael Kosta]

The Saudi prince greeted him at the.

[Hasan Piker]

Airport and he got a horse escort.

[Jordan Klepper]

Into the Saudi palace.

[Michael Kosta]

A horse escort. I gotta say, when you hear that Trump got a horse escort, this is the best version of that story. But I gotta tell you, Saudi Arabia, oh, man, they went all out. It wasn't just those horse escort. They greeted Trump with a full brass band that was really trying their best, you know. And then it was time for Trump to walk down the famous purple carpet. And so he walked and he walked, kept walking. You know, it feels like he could have stayed in the car for some. Oh, now he took an escalator. Great, we're done. No, we're still walking. Yep, that's fine. It's a cool 108 degrees. This guy can handle it, you know. You know, Trump's looking at the carpet going, you know these things fly here, right? Don't they? Show me a whole new world or some shit like that. Well, look, a horse guard and purple carpets. That might impress the average world leader, but Donald Trump is no average world leader. And Saudi Arabia knows how to cater to a man who with such refined tastes. Saudi Arabia had a McDonald's mobile truck come on site so that President Trump could have his favorite McDonald's. Perfect. Perfect. Oh, I gotta say, it is nice to see they got another use out of the horses once they were done with that house quote. It's good to know. It's good, it's good, it's good. You gotta hand it to the Saudis, though. They know the fastest way to Trump's heart is through his stomach out the colon, with a little bit staying behind in his arteries. But not everything in the royal kingdom was to Trump's liking. Now, after they arrived, the Saudis served some coffee, but while everyone else drank theirs, Donald Trump just held his in his hand the whole time. Look at that. Look at that, right? It looks like he was waiting to give a urine sample to the nurse. I gotta tell, I get this. Honestly, I get it. Unfamiliar coffee on a trip is risky. One sip is all it takes to go from traveler's constipation to travelers. You guys go without me. I'm gonna hang out in the room for a while. Smart move. It's a smart move, Mr. President. You don't want to throw a wrench into that perfect gut biome you've created. Now, that being said, that being said, Trump maybe regret it not taking that caffeine shot. A few minutes later, Mohammed bin Salman is saying we need a resolution on a Palestinian state. And I don't necessarily recall several years ago pre October 7th, as that being a demand that he had necessarily stated publicly. Do you think his position has changed or do you think the way he has expressed himself has that changed? Mr. President, come on, you can't fall asleep there. This isn't an intelligence briefing. Come on, man. Look, it's not actually a big deal for the president to have jet lag. I'm not so much of an asshole that I make fun of someone for nodding off a bit on a trip. But you know who is that much of an asshole? Joe Biden.

[Jordan Klepper]

The guy can fall asleep instant with the press watching.

[Michael Kosta]

Who the hell wants to sleep with these people watching? And he's out cold. You see the dribble coming down the side of the street? Well, well, well, look who's sleeping out. Ooh. Well, well, well. I tell you what, I tell you what. Joe Biden, you must be loving. Oh, he's passed out. Never mind, never mind. Of course it's in the Saudis interest to give Trump the royal treatment. But I'm sure the President of the United States understands that the Saudi Crown Prince is not without baggage just a few years ago that he murdered an American journalist. So I'm sure the President will keep a healthy Distance from the crown Prince. I like him a lot.

[Jordan Klepper]

I like him too much.

[Michael Kosta]

That's why we give so much, you know? Too much.

[Jordan Klepper]

I like you too much.

[Michael Kosta]

I agree. You might like him too much. Regardless, you know what? It was a very nice start to this trip abroad, where he'll visit not just Saudi Arabia, but then Qatar and then the uae. But you might be wondering, why did Trump pick these countries for his first foreign trip? Well, there's a strong geopolitical balance of rel. I'm with you. Corruption.

[Jordan Klepper]

His sons, who now run the Trump Organization, have lucrative real estate in all three countries the President is visiting.

[Michael Kosta]

The Trump boys have projects in all three countries. I never thought I'd say this, but can't these countries go back to doing something more constructive, like funding terrorism? But Donald Trump doesn't see any of these business conflicts as a problem. In fact, if anything, he's taking conflicts to a. To a new height, as in heights like. Like. Like the sky. We turn to the uproar over the $400 million gift from the government of Qatar tonight. A luxury 747 jumbo jet to be used as Air Force One until the end of Trump's term, when the White House says it would be decommissioned and donated to the Trump Library. Yeah, yeah. You know, I think we could stop pretending that this airplane is going to be transferred to his presidential library. This is like the news reporting. Your aunt is bringing her good friend Linda to Thanksgiving. They're L. Cooter people. That's what's happening. Okay, look. Now, apart from being a security concern and a potential bribe, it seems clearly unconstitutional to give the President a gift like this. You know what? What do I know? Attorney General Pam Bondi. What say you?

[Jordan Klepper]

Attorney General Pam Bondi says the gift is, quote, legally permissible and not a bribe because Trump isn't giving Qatar anything in return.

[Michael Kosta]

There you have it. Right? Terror hump hasn't given them anything, and it's been, like, 36 hours. You know what? I trust her. She's the Attorney General. Just a quick fact check. What did she do before she was the Attorney General?

[Jordan Klepper]

We should point out that Bondi previously worked as a foreign lobbyist for the nation of Qatar, earning about $115,000 a month.

[Michael Kosta]

Right, Right. You know, it looks bad, but you have to understand that's a lot of money. And money feels good to have and to spend, so now I get it. For more on Trump's visit to Saudi Arabia, we go live to our very own Michael. Michael. Michael. You're embedded with the Trump team. How's it going, Jordan?

[Jordan Klepper]

It's going great. You know, the Saudis are treating us like kings. Five star hotels, fine dining. I just used the bidet and woo hoo. I wish it was a ba month. I don't know why the Saudis get such a bad rap.

[Michael Kosta]

I mean, because they're an oppressive dictatorship that mistreats women. And they did 9 11.

[Jordan Klepper]

Yeah, I was gonna ask them some tough questions about that, and then the free massage started and. Jordan, Whoa. Omar used to do interrogations, so he knows how to get deep into that tissue. Now, I usually don't like when men touch my body, but I know that he's not gay, since over here, that's a crime, Right? And that also made me feel a lot better about that happy ending.

[Michael Kosta]

All right, Michael, you know, a lot of people think that the Gulf states are just bribing Trump to get what they want. It kind of seems like these bribes might be working.

[Jordan Klepper]

Whoa, Jordan. Bribe? Easy on the B word, bitch. Okay? These countries are just being good friends, and friends sometimes give other friends billions of dollars in crypto and airplanes. I mean, I got you the bread maker for your wedding, didn't I?

[Michael Kosta]

No, no, you didn't give me. You just got shit faced and tackled my grandmother during the electric slide.

[Jordan Klepper]

Well, in my defense, I thought her oxygen tank was a bomb. The point is, maybe the bribes are a good thing. If you want Trump to fix the Middle east, he needs some skin in the game. You think he's gonna do this pro bono? He doesn't give a what the guys from U2 think.

[Michael Kosta]

Okay, Michael, no. This is the pathway to corruption. If Trump takes bribes, he's going to favor that country in decisions regarding American policy.

[Jordan Klepper]

Trump's going to take bribes no matter what. The smart thing to do is make sure he takes bribes from every country. Then he'll work for every country and we'll all live in harmony. That's why I say if you want world peace, you got to give Trump a peace. You see what I did there? I spelled it differently. It's clever. It's a play on.

[Michael Kosta]

I see it. I see it. Look, okay, I gotta tell you, Michael, very clever, but this whole thing just. It just doesn't feel good.

[Jordan Klepper]

Well, then you need to talk to Omar, because he can make you feel real good. Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm gonna use the bidet again. This thing's like a fire hose. I'm practically cleaning my teeth with it. Omar, grab me some towels, buddy.

[Michael Kosta]

Okay, That's Michael Kosta, everyone. We come back, I talk about pike and don't go. Welcome back to the Daily Show. You know, it's common knowledge that the podcast world is full of MAGA right wingers. But the left has some big players too. I spoke to one of their biggest. After 10 years of covering the Trump campaign, I thought nothing could shock me anymore. But somehow in 2024, young voters, and most especially young men went hard. For a 78 year old who uses pancake makeup, the bro vote, especially on college campuses, broke heavily for Trump. Yes, Trump reached voters by engaging with right wing influencers in what's called the manosphere. It's a collection of online content and social media promoting bro culture, and it's a space that the left seems to ignore. But someone saw this as a mistake. Were you surprised that so many young people showed up and voted for Donald Trump?

[Hasan Piker]

No. No, not even a little bit.

[Michael Kosta]

This is Hasan Piker. He's a progressive who has intellectual sit downs with Bernie and AOC and still manages to post Thirst Trap workout videos to his 2.8 million followers on the platform Twitch. This combo has liberal media asking if he is the magical connection to young male voters. This is where you twitch from?

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah.

[Michael Kosta]

What is a twitch?

[Hasan Piker]

It's basically like YouTube but you're live streaming.

[Michael Kosta]

It's a podcast for people who are like, I wish this podcast were longer.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah.

[Michael Kosta]

Yet his lefty bonafides might have made him a target for Donald Trump's Homeland Security, which recently detained Piker at the airport. How do you see the left communicating with, like, young men in this, this time of the manosphere?

[Hasan Piker]

The left could, I don't know, talk to dudes without vilifying them. There's a lot of anger, resentment, not having any hope for a future, never being able to retire, never being able to own a home. All of those things are very much of the core identity for the next generation.

[Michael Kosta]

But is there room for the Democrats to create a left wing manosphere to talk about the social safety net and protein powder?

[Hasan Piker]

Absolutely. I think that there is a space for it, but I don't think the left feels that void at all at this moment. I try to do so, but even I sometimes get hit with a this is body fascism.

[Michael Kosta]

But now I have to worry about a new fascism. I'm getting used to the old fascism. What does even the term body fascism mean?

[Hasan Piker]

I don't fully understand it. I think it's like a lot of leftists hate other leftists. Any sort of consideration about the aesthetics of how you look is actually another way to, I guess, reinforce an unjustifiable hierarchy.

[Michael Kosta]

To be fair, that's why I don't workout.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Michael Kosta]

Because I'm anti body fascism. So people are like, oh, are you lazy? I'm like, no, I'm. I'm a socialist with my body.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah. No respect.

[Michael Kosta]

Yeah. And it's not young men just being drawn to the right. Some technology is giving them a push. A recent Study created generic TikTok accounts for imaginary 16 to 18 year old boys to see how the algorithm acted. And within 23 minutes, they were fed masculine, anti feminist, extremist content. Life for a man is harder than.

[Jordan Klepper]

Life for a woman. The hotter a woman is, the more insecure she is about her looks.

[Michael Kosta]

Your body, my choice. So I was excited to dip my toe into this cesspool, so I set up this account as a 16 year.

[Hasan Piker]

Old, pretending that's what the pedophile hunters do as well.

[Michael Kosta]

I'm not in that world. So walk me through some of the stuff we see here. So this is. This is what my algorithm is essentially feeling. First up, some content from Charlie Kirk. Kirk is a right wing influencer known for trolling liberals on college campuses. You said male baristas aren't masculine. I think you and I can both agree that male baristas are not exactly high. Usually high on the testosterone. They are.

[Hasan Piker]

Wait, pause for a second. But he's a podcaster.

[Michael Kosta]

He's a podcaster.

[Hasan Piker]

We are doing something very, very not like alpha dog. They mistake being confident for what it means to be masculine.

[Michael Kosta]

Okay, moving on.

[Hasan Piker]

Trevonta Davis. He's sick. Okay, I'm seeing your algorithm. May I gently bury my face in those milkers?

[Michael Kosta]

This dog. See, there's just so much going on here. Does this dog want to a woman? Is that what's happening here?

[Hasan Piker]

I don't know what's going on.

[Michael Kosta]

Who am I in? I don't know.

[Hasan Piker]

Who are you?

[Michael Kosta]

This TikTok makes me very existential. I'm gonna like it. I'm gonna smash that hard.

[Hasan Piker]

What are these trucks? What is going on?

[Michael Kosta]

I like this one though. This is interesting. Me cheat. The only thing I do behind your back is look at your ass. See, this is actually kind of sweet.

[Hasan Piker]

But it's like, why is it always trucks?

[Michael Kosta]

You get dogs that objectify women and also trucks that objectify women.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah.

[Michael Kosta]

Are you a sea lion? Because I would like to see you lying in my bed. Sweetie. These dogs. No, no, this is.

[Hasan Piker]

I'm telling you, this is for. How old are you?

[Michael Kosta]

I'm 46.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah. This is literally the TikTok algorithm, I think at some point identified you as a 46 year old man.

[Michael Kosta]

But you can tell that because it's a dog that wants to me, this is one.

[Hasan Piker]

Like even the first dog won, it.

[Michael Kosta]

Knows why it found me that day.

[Hasan Piker]

Now you understand how people find themselves captivated by right wing politics.

[Michael Kosta]

Oh, my God. Yeah, it was like, oh, a lot.

[Hasan Piker]

Of people are like emotionally and mentally stunted adults running around and that's why they think Andrew Tate's awesome. I think we're arriving at how that happened.

[Michael Kosta]

In the end, young people just want influencers who connect with them, politicians who address their concerns, and social media that doesn't break their brains. I'm gonna keep scrolling through to see if there's any more dogs I wanna pet. Dogs that wanna pet.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah.

[Michael Kosta]

Thank you, Hashawn Piker. And for more about the rise of young Trump fans, check out my new special, the Next Generation, airing next Monday, May 19, right after the Daily show right here on Comedy Central. When we come back, Matt Wolfe will be joining me on the show. Don't go away. Welcome back to the Daily Show. My guest tonight is an award winning filmmaker whose new HBO documentary is called Pee Wee. As himself, please welcome Matt W. Matt, I saw this. I saw the doc. Two part doc. People are clamoring for it. There's a lot of love for Pee Wee Herman and Paul Rubens. And I think what we just saw in that clip, I want to go right at that. It tells the story of Paul Reubens and Pee Wee Herman and who is Paul Reubens within the story of Pee Wee Herman and outside of it as well. But what you leave in you're a part of this, you're off camera. And in that moment right there, there's a tension between you and Paul. Walk me through what is happening right there. What was the inherent tension that we're seeing there and the tension you had in making this documentary?

[Matt Wolf]

Well, from the moment I met Paul Rubens, he said to me, I want to direct my own documentary, but everybody's telling me I shouldn't do it, and I don't understand why. And I said, well, I'm here to meet with you about me directing the documentary. And that dynamic didn't go away. Yeah, we were a little competitive in the process because Paul was somebody who totally separated himself from his alter ego, Pee Wee Herman, and I was sort of asking him to bring those two things together. So he was a little rebellious in the interview.

[Michael Kosta]

Well, you coming into Something like that. What is the story you wanted to tell? He says, you have an agenda in that clip. What's your agenda?

[Matt Wolf]

My whole pitch to him is, I want to make a portrait of an artist. You know, he wanted to really set the record straight and overcome some of the controversies from his rest. And I said, well, you know, that's the easy part. The harder part is to really look inward. Who are you really as a person who the world doesn't know, even though your character is so iconic?

[Michael Kosta]

Mm. I mean, it's interesting because it feels like the documentary looks at the arrests and sort of what happened post Pee Wee or the initial run of Pee Wee. But he's reticent in telling that story, even to the point where he avoided you at the end of filming. Right. Do you feel like you were able. What did he want to say, and what was he able to actually reveal?

[Matt Wolf]

You know, I think Paul felt comfortable talking about his artistry and less comfortable talking about the controversies that surrounded it. But he was determined to overcome those controversies, so I was there to help him do it. But he really wanted creative control. It was a little like his Achilles heel. And so we were at odds, and some time went by where we weren't working together. And it was only at the end, before Paul died, that I was able to talk to him, and he wanted to move forward. I didn't know what was going on behind the scenes.

[Michael Kosta]

Well, this is what's crazy. You didn't. You make it very clear in the document. You didn't know he was dying. Paul Rubens was battling cancer at the end for years. But you were unaware of this while you were working with him?

[Matt Wolf]

No idea at all.

[Michael Kosta]

Yeah, but he came, and then he basically blocks you off for a little while.

[Matt Wolf]

There was a time where we weren't working together. We were trying to find a path forward, and we couldn't. But fortunately, I was able to talk to him toward the end and I could tell something, but I had no idea of the gravity of it. And I was supposed to do a final interview with him the week after he died.

[Michael Kosta]

Really?

[Matt Wolf]

Yeah.

[Michael Kosta]

Oh. I mean, it's heartbreaking. It's. You talk about his stubbornness and his creative control. You also show a big part of this is celebrating Pee Wee Herman and the character he created, which that creative control allowed him to create something that really is unlike what people see today. I'm a father to a four and a half year old, so I watch a lot of kids entertainment. It's sort of an antidote to watching CNN all the time. It's like you throw on a bluey and life is good. And it's curious. Bluey with Outstanding. That's a wonderful show. But for most part. For most part, they sand off certain edges to it. And you revisit what Paul Rubens was doing with Pee Wee's Playhouse. And it really. It pushes boundaries. It's empathetic. It speaks to kids and adults at the same time. It's a show about inclusivity without making that direct focus, like, it still feels cutting edge. Revisiting it in your documentary.

[Matt Wolf]

Yeah, it changed who I am as a kid.

[Michael Kosta]

You were a fan growing up.

[Matt Wolf]

I grew up on Pee Wee's Playhouse. I wouldn't have been able to put words to it, but I think its message of radical acceptance and creativity. It changed who I am.

[Michael Kosta]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matt Wolf]

So it was thrilling to be able to work with Paul and to kind.

[Michael Kosta]

Of be in his mind what's happening off camera as. As you have some of those tense moments. You said 40 hours of interviews with. With Paul Rubens.

[Matt Wolf]

40 hours is.

[Michael Kosta]

There's moments. There's moments that you show where I see him pushing back on you and what I'm watching with him from a performer's perspective. I'm curious as to whether he's being. He's frustrated with you, the director, or. I'm curious if he's playing a character who finds humor in being the foil to the overbearing director. Do you feel like you were talking to a character? Paul Rubin's playing a comedic Persona even in his conversations with you.

[Matt Wolf]

Somewhere in between, I think there was a barbed element to our conversations, but it was also fun.

[Michael Kosta]

Yeah.

[Matt Wolf]

You know, it wasn't really about me. I mean, Paul was wrestling with himself to tell his authentic story, and I was just there bearing witness to the whole thing. And we had an incredible time. It was really fun doing 40 hours of interview, but it could be tense, it could be competitive, and he could be slippery and rebellious. But when he snapped into storytelling mode, he was one of the most riveting people I've ever spoken to.

[Michael Kosta]

Yeah. Yeah. So he. He passes. And you're already having this. This dynamic where you're. There's a battle for control over who gets to tell that story.

[Matt Wolf]

He.

[Michael Kosta]

He passes. You have a new responsibility. How does that change how you're putting together a documentary?

[Matt Wolf]

I mean, it was the largest responsibility I've ever been given in my life.

[Michael Kosta]

Did you creatively change, though, what you were imagining?

[Matt Wolf]

Yeah, I know.

[Michael Kosta]

Do you know him? You owe his Creative vision more after that. Like, did you feel more constrained by that responsibility?

[Matt Wolf]

No, but I knew that what happened between us and the circumstances in which the film was being finished was part of the story. So I had to pivot in that regard and also to recognize there were things going on that I didn't know about while we were making the film. But at the end of the day, I wanted to make a portrait of this singular artist and that didn't change.

[Michael Kosta]

Yeah. What would he have cut from this film?

[Matt Wolf]

I don't know. I can't speculate what Paul would have done.

[Michael Kosta]

Yeah. Do you think he would have enjoyed seeing it and seeing the response it gets?

[Matt Wolf]

He can't speak for himself, so I think he would be happy that people are excited to learn his story.

[Michael Kosta]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. What did you learn spending all this time with him that was outside of what you expected coming into it?

[Matt Wolf]

You know, I learned what it's like to be the subject of a documentary and how scary we are when we come and film you.

[Michael Kosta]

Yeah.

[Matt Wolf]

You know, like, I got some new perspective about how it feels to be on the other side of the camera because Paul was so forthcoming about it and I had a lot of empathy for it.

[Michael Kosta]

Yeah. Well, I mean, somebody who is also so much of the trauma in his life and what you discuss is a media looking at his life, trying to put a story to his life. Do you feel that was embedded in the armor that you had to sort of get through?

[Matt Wolf]

I mean, Paul had issues of control because he was a brilliant artist and all artists are controlling, but he lost control of his narrative in the media. Of course he was gonna be skeptical or cautious around a younger filmmaker like myself.

[Michael Kosta]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it's a remarkable film or multiple piece documentary. Thank you for putting it on. The two part documentary Pee Wee as Himself premieres May 23rd on HBO. And Max, Matt Wolf, we're take a quick break. That's our show for the night. Now here it is. I said hi to the president. President introduced me to the crown prince. And the president, in a lot of good humor said crown prince. Now, he doesn't quite make the money that you do, but. And he went on to tell a funny story and you know, in very Trumpian fashion. And it was pretty, pretty special and pretty funny.

[Hasan Piker]

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[Jordan Klepper]

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[Michael Kosta]

Paramount podcasts.

[Jordan Klepper]

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