Shutdown Sparks Cringey Meme War & Trump Punishes Blue Cities | Kevin Nguyen

Summary

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The Daily Show: Ears Edition

Episode: Shutdown Sparks Cringey Meme War & Trump Punishes Blue Cities | Kevin Nguyen
Date: October 3, 2025
Host: Ronny Chieng (with Ronnie Tay, Thaddeus Mandible Crowley, Stephen Miller, Kevin Wynn, Michael Kosta)
Guest: Kevin Wynn

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Overview

This episode of The Daily Show: Ears Edition dives into the ongoing 2025 government shutdown, exploring the meme wars erupting between Republicans and Democrats, the political maneuvering behind the shutdown, and former President Trump’s punitive policies targeting Democratic-leaning states. The show also features a satirical segment on the White House’s use of obscure old laws and an in-depth interview with author and journalist Kevin Wynn about his dystopian novel, My Documents, and the complexities of Asian American identity and history.

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Key Topics & Segments

1. Government Shutdown: Meme Warfare & Political Blame (01:29–04:50)

• The government shutdown enters its second day, with both parties prioritizing blame over solutions.
• Ronny Chieng lampoons Democrats’ and Republicans’ attempts at digital public relations, from awkward midnight videos to the viral "sombrero meme."
• Republicans are depicted as using AI-altered images and memes to frame Democrats as pro-immigrant shutdown architects.
• Democrats attempt to fight back with their own memes, but are mocked for poor execution and lack of viral prowess.

Notable Quote:
"Democrats aren't as good at video content as they are at sending emails asking for money."
— Ronny Chieng (03:14)

2. The "Sombrero Meme" and Immigration Scare Tactics (04:03–05:32)

• The "sombrero meme" becomes a symbol of Republican messaging, suggesting Democrats prioritized illegal immigrants over American citizens.
• Ted Cruz is singled out for elevating the meme, making it “instantly uncool.”
• Right-wing commentators frame Democrats as the party of "open borders" and "lawlessness," escalating the fear-mongering.

Notable Quote:
"Once Ted Cruz joins in on something, it's dead."
— Ronny Chieng (04:13)

3. Healthcare, Shutdown Rhetoric, and Scapegoating (05:32–07:19)

• Chieng clarifies that most health care funding at issue does not go to undocumented immigrants, likening the political fight to a misunderstanding over "accidental" benefits.
• Federal law on aid to undocumented immigrants is explained for context.

Memorable Analogy:
"You know when you're showering and you aren't trying to wash your feet, but it just kind of sort of happens by accident… anyway, that's what this shutdown is about."
— Ronny Chieng (06:32)

4. Trump’s Retaliation Against Blue States (07:19–08:22)

• Thaddeus Mandible Crowley and Kevin Wynn report on the Trump administration withholding billions in energy and transportation funding from Democratic states like New York.
• Chieng mocks the pettiness of these tactics and notes the collateral damage to all constituents.

Notable Quote:
"You're telling me every New Yorker is going to suffer because of your beef with Chuck Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries?"
— Ronny Chieng (07:41)

5. The Joy of Destruction: Russ Vought’s Shutdown Dreams (08:22–09:46)

• Focus on Russ Vought, described as overzealous in pursuing government cuts, framing him as "wringing his hands with glee."
• Michael Kosta (in-character) humorously reports from outside Vought’s "bathroom," playing up the image of bureaucratic excitement gone wild.

Notable Quote:
"This guy's balls dropped, and he was like, oh, man, I want to fire people in the government so bad."
— Ronny Chieng (09:30)

6. Satirical Breakdown: The GOP’s Refusal Mindset (10:22–13:02)

• Kosta and Chieng satirically dissect the absurd lengths to which Republicans will go, even preferring everyone suffer rather than risk "one illegal [immigrant] getting anything."

Memorable Exchange:
"We'd rather everybody get nothing than one illegal get anything, whether it's health care or air traffic control."
— Ronnie Tay (11:25)

7. Trump’s Obsession with Obscure Laws (14:27–18:27)

• Parody segment on the White House’s "advisor for super old laws," Thaddeus Mandible Crowley, who helps Trump dig up ancient, often absurd legislation for modern use.
• Features a string of deliberately ridiculous "old laws" and sardonic commentary on using antiquated statutes to justify modern policy.

Notable Quote:
"That's the beauty of America. Thousands upon thousands of laws that never expire, ready to be deployed hundreds of years later to justify the ethically dubious whims of our mercurial leader."
— Thaddeus Mandible Crowley (15:52)

8. Interview: Kevin Wynn on "My Documents" and Asian American History (19:50–32:29)

Book Introduction and Themes (20:25–22:09)

• Wynn discusses his novel My Documents, its Vietnamese title pun (meaning "America"), and its premise: a dystopian future where the government detains people without cause, inspired by historical government actions against minorities.
• Draws direct influence from the Alien Enemies Act and Japanese American incarceration.

Quote:
"I just kind of imagine, like, what if it happened again today, and because I’m Vietnamese, I made it happen to Vietnamese people."
— Kevin Wynn (21:40)

Structural Choices and Storytelling (22:09–23:53)

• Wynn explains his decision for shorter chapters, both as a response to editorial feedback and to create a more propulsive reading experience.
• Book begins with a personal/family story loosely based on his grandmother’s experience fleeing Vietnam.

Teaching History and Identity (23:53–24:54)

• Discussion about the lack of education on topics like Japanese American incarceration and its effect on intergenerational understanding.
• The book tackles what happens when history isn’t taught or sought out, and how young people often begin "incurious."

Asian American Solidarity and Satirical Legislation (27:19–28:32)

• The novel satirically names the law targeting Vietnamese as the "American Advanced Protectionist Initiative" (AAPI) to poke fun at acronyms and the tokenization of Asian Americans in US politics.
• Both Wynn and Chieng reflect on the complexities and sometimes contradictions involved in the "AAPI" label.

Quote:
"At what point does this kind of diversity thing become token and condescending?"
— Ronny Chieng (28:27)

Solidarity vs. Individuality (29:01–30:33)

• Wynn discusses the trade-off between collective strength and the erasure of individual histories.
• His work as a journalist (clarifying complex issues) versus novelist (making them murkier) is juxtaposed.

No Easy Answers, Just More History (30:33–32:29)

• Wynn expresses hope that the book encourages examination of connections between historic and current policies on immigration, security, and detention.
• He refrains from offering a "solution," emphasizing the value of confronting and muddling through historical complexities.

Quote:
"I think the goal of the book was to kind of draw, like, a line between all of these things. They seem like disparate forces in America, but I think they're actually all quite part of American history."
— Kevin Wynn (31:37)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Memes & Shutdown:
  "The sombrero meme is undefeated. It's like an unblockable combo. With this meme, Republicans will never have to make a coherent point again."
  — Ronny Chieng (04:08)

• On Scorched Earth Policy:
  "This dude is going scorched earth on his own government."
  — Ronny Chieng (08:01)

• On Republicans' Refusal:
  "We'd rather everybody get nothing than one illegal get anything, whether it's health care or air traffic control."
  — Ronnie Tay (11:25)

• On Historical Amnesia:
  "If your education system will not tell you these stories, how are you supposed to find them out?"
  — Kevin Wynn (23:53)

• On AAPI Solidarity:
  "Sometimes in that, I think we lose the individuality... In journalism, you try and take a lot of muddy ideas and try to clarify it...in fiction...you can muddy it up."
  — Kevin Wynn (29:34)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Shutdown Meme War Commentary: 01:29–05:32
• Healthcare Policy Breakdown: 05:32–07:19
• Trump’s Blue State Retaliation: 07:19–08:22
• Russ Vought Shutdown Segment: 08:22–09:46
• Satirical Crowley on Old Laws: 14:27–18:27
• Kevin Wynn Interview Start: 19:50–32:29
  • On the novel's inspiration: 21:40–22:09
  • On history and ignorance: 23:53–24:54
  • On satire and AAPI: 27:19–28:32
  • On identity and writing: 29:01–30:33
  • On conclusions: 30:33–32:29

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Overall Tone & Takeaways

The episode offers sharp, sardonic humor characteristic of The Daily Show, blending serious commentary with biting satire. The exploration of meme wars around the shutdown delivers both laughs and insight about the modern political landscape, while the conversation with Kevin Wynn is thoughtful, grounded in personal and historical realities, and invites the audience to reflect on the complexities of immigration, identity, and America’s cyclical tendencies. Wynn’s segment is especially poignant for its candid reflection on cultural roots, generational trauma, and the struggle to reclaim history in the present.

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For Listeners Who Missed the Episode

• You’ll learn: how memes have become the new front in partisan warfare; why old laws are back in the news; how government shutdowns are wielded as partisan punishment; and what’s at stake for Asian American identity in a time of rising division and political exploitation.
• Highlights include: Ronny Chieng’s hilarious takedowns of political absurdities, insight into obscure government machinations, and a moving, self-aware interview on history and belonging in the Asian American diaspora.

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Transcript

[Narrator/Announcer]

This podcast is supported by FX's English teacher. Last year's critically acclaimed series returns to follow Evan, Gwen and Markie as they vie for their students divided attention. See why Cosmopolitan called its premiere season a masterclass of comedy while glamour raved. It's the year's funniest and most heartwarming new comedy series. FX's English Teacher. All new Thursdays on FX. All episodes now streaming on Hulu.

Limu Emu and Doug.

[Ronny Chieng]

Here we have the Limu Emu in its natural habitat, helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug.

[Thaddeus Mandible Crowley]

Uh, Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us?

[Ronny Chieng]

Cut the camera. They see us. Only pay for what you need@liberty mutual.com Liberty, Liberty, Liberty. Liberty Savings vary underwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates. Excludes Massachusetts.

[Ronnie Tay]

You're listening to Comedy Central from the most trusted journalists at Comedy Central. It's America's only source for news. This is the Daily show with your host, Ronnie Tay.

[Ronny Chieng]

Welcome to the Daily. I'm Ron Cheng. We got so much to talk about tonight. Republicans are making everyone Mexican. Democrats are losing the content wars, and we find out if layoffs can make you horny. So let's get into all of it with our ongoing coverage of shutdown showdown 2025.

[Stephen Miller]

Locked up, locked down and closed for business.

[Ronny Chieng]

It's day two of the shutdown, and only the most essential services are still operating. Social Security, Medicare, and that department that makes up causes for autism. Today, it's minestrone. You hear that? Don't give pregnant women minestrone. It's got too many different things in it that the body can't handle. Now, for the Republicans and Democrats, the most important part of the shutdown is coming together and blaming the other side for it. President Trump has been posting AI videos of Hakeem Jeffries in a sombrero. And now, unfortunately, Democrats are hitting back with their own videos. It's midnight.

[Ronnie Tay]

The Republican shutdown has just begun.

[Kevin Wynn]

Can you see me?

[Thaddeus Mandible Crowley]

Well, of course you can't, because the Republicans turned the lights off.

[Ronnie Tay]

Open the door. Mr. Speaker. Open the doors of Congress. Mr. Speaker.

[Thaddeus Mandible Crowley]

Republicans. Is Mike Johnson in here? Hello, Republicans. No Republicans on the train. Hello, Republicans. Have you seen any Republicans? No Republicans here.

[Ronny Chieng]

No Republicans here. Because they all died from secondhand embarrassment. Look, Democrats aren't as good at video content as they are at sending emails asking for money. So I don't know. Let's try something else.

[Ronnie Tay]

Yesterday, Democrats posted a Kitty explains meme blaming the GOP for the shutdown.

[Ronny Chieng]

Democrat kiddies want you to have health care. Republican kiddies do not. Wow, that was also not good, but still better than whatever Batman villain Chuck Schumer is turning into. I mean, my. My guess is the Penguin. But you know what? They made a substantive point in there. I'd like to see Republicans counter argument.

[Ronnie Tay]

Republicans, of course, responded with this.

[Kevin Wynn]

A kid wearing a sombrero.

[Ronny Chieng]

God damn. The sombrero meme is undefeated. It's like an unblockable combo. With this meme, Republicans will never have to make a coherent point again. It's unstoppable. Republican Senator Ted Cruz added his own version of hey Macareno, superimposing the image of on 44 Democratic senators. And it's over. Once Ted Cruz joins in on something, it's dead. Actually, you know what? Can we also get him a labubu? Cause I'm kind of sick of those things now. You might be wondering why Republicans keep putting sombreros on Democrats. Apparently, it's part of that talking point that Democrats shut down the government to help illegal immigrants.

[Ronnie Tay]

What they have done instead is to shut down the government because we won't give billions of dollars to health care funding for illegal aliens.

[Thaddeus Mandible Crowley]

They prioritize taxpayer funded benefits for illegal aliens over keeping the government open for American citizens.

[Right-wing commentator]

Democrats, the party of open borders, transgender for everybody, lawlessness in our streets are shutting down the government in an effort to appease the radical left. These Democrats are demanding nearly $1.5 trillion in spending for an agenda that includes health care for illegal aliens. Much, much more.

[Ronny Chieng]

Holy shit. When you wake up from surgery, you will be a transgender illegal immigrant. I mean, that ad was so scary. I was expecting the girl from the ring to crawl out of it and then become the boy from the ring. But this is a pretty big accusation. Okay? Democrats say they're shutting down the government because they want to preserv health care for tens of millions of Americans. But Republicans say Democrats just want to give health care to illegal immigrants. So can someone just clear this up for me? Republicans pressuring moderate Democrats by claiming they are pushing for health care for undocumented immigrants. But their accusation is dubious and refers to a small group of benefit recipients whose status is considered lawfully present. Federal law explicitly prohibits undocumented people from receiving aid. So, in other words, some of the health care that Democrats are trying to get for Americans might also trickle down to some people who are not Americans. You know when you're showering and you aren't trying to wash your feet, but it just kind of sort of happens by accident along the way, which I actually just learned is how white people wash their feet. They don't. They don't make a point. They don't lift up their feet and wash it. They just. If. If it happens, it happen anyway. That's what this shutdown is about. Now, now, look, this isn't the first time the party shut down the government and blamed each other, okay? But this time, Republicans aren't just trying to blame Democrats. They're trying to punish the states they come from.

[Thaddeus Mandible Crowley]

The White House has already started targeting.

[Kevin Wynn]

Projects important to Democrats, blocking $8 billion for energy projects in 16 states that voted Democrat in the last presidential election.

[Thaddeus Mandible Crowley]

The Trump administration announced Wednesday it would withhold $18 billion in funding for transportation projects in New York City, home to Democratic leaders Chuck Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries.

[Ronny Chieng]

Wait a minute right there, right? You're telling me every New Yorker is going to suffer because of your beef with Chuck Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries? Hey, President Trump, don't forget, there are things in New York you care about, too, all right? Like Wall Street, Fox News host, your current wife, and the home she lives in by herself for some reason. Right? But you know what, Trump? New York doesn't want your money anyway, okay? Our transportation is just fine. Our rats are getting so big, you can ride them to work now. And by the way, it's not just Democratic states. This dude is going scorched earth on his own government.

[Thaddeus Mandible Crowley]

White House budget director Russ Vogt warned mass layoffs could come within the next two days.

[Ronnie Tay]

President Trump is teasing that I have a meeting with Russ Vogt, he of Project 2025 fame, to determine which of the many Democrat agencies, most of which are a political scam, he recommends to be cut.

[Stephen Miller]

A lot of good can come down from shutdowns. We can get rid of a lot of things that we didn't want, and they'd be Democrat things.

[Ronny Chieng]

That's right. This guy is excited for a shutdown. And that's the Democrats fatal mistake. They assume that Donald Trump cares about the government. He's the president of. You think you're playing a game of chicken, but he's playing a game of let me crash into your car. And as you heard, the guy who's driving his car is the White House budget director and future Paul Giamatti. Oscar Role Russell Vogt. According to Senator Mike Lee, this guy might be even more excited about tearing down the government than Donald Trump.

[Ronnie Tay]

Russ Vogt, the OMB director, has been Dreaming about this moment. Preparing this moment since puberty.

[Ronny Chieng]

Look, I know puberty can get weird, but this guy's balls dropped, and he was like, oh, man, I want to fire people in the government so bad.

[Ronnie Tay]

Presidently Democrats.

[Ronny Chieng]

This. This is probably the only 13 year old in history who hid a copy of the federal budget inside a penthouse. I mean, I hope Democrats have a plan for this, because letting this guy have control of the federal government, I can't think of anything scarier than that. Oh, shit. Oh. Oh, my God. Sorry. I stand corrected here. Uh, for more on the Republican shutdown strategy, let's go live to D.C. with Michael Kosta. Michael Micha. It seems like Republicans are really enjoying this shutdown.

[Ronnie Tay]

They sure are. Ronnie. I'm outside Russell Vogt's bathroom. Once he's done jerking it in there, they're gonna get to work slashing the government.

[Ronny Chieng]

Oh, gross. He's jerking off at work.

[Ronnie Tay]

He's excited. Man. He's been dreaming about this moment since puberty. Although it has been an hour. Hey, Russ, take it easy in there, bud. Slow and steady wins the race.

[Ronny Chieng]

Okay, well, I. I guess I. I don't understand why the Republicans are so strict about any money going to illegal immigrants. Like, isn't that worth it if it helps give Americans health care?

[Ronnie Tay]

Absolutely not, Ronny. That is not the American way. Obviously, we all love medical treatments for our diseases, but is that worth risking an illegal immigrant getting free aspirin? No way, Jose. Lo siento, mi amor. Biblioth.

[Ronny Chieng]

Okay, listen, Michael. Me personally, I think I would prefer the medical treatment for all.

[Ronnie Tay]

God, you just don't get it, Ronnie. So let me give it to you straighter than my boy Russell's giving it to his left palm in there. Here you go, Big Russ. America is built on two principles. One, liquor before beer, you're in the clear. Which is not really relevant here. But two, we'd rather everybody get nothing than one illegal get anything, whether it's health care or air traffic control.

[Ronny Chieng]

Hang on, hang on. Air traffic control?

[Ronnie Tay]

Yeah. Americans don't want our taxpayer dollars going to safely land a plane that illegal immigrants are on.

[Ronny Chieng]

But what if Americans are also on that plane?

[Ronnie Tay]

Well, then it would be an honor to go down in a blaze of taxpayer savings watching Jumanji 2 and speak. Speaking of balls of fire. Hey, Russell, finish it up there, man. If you pull that thing off, they'll make you switch bathrooms.

[Ronny Chieng]

All right, Costa, this is so stupid.

[Ronnie Tay]

Oh, it's stupid? Was it stupid to homeschool myself so I didn't Risk being educated alongside some legal asylum seeker? No, because me, a proud citizen of the ufa.

[Ronny Chieng]

I think it's the US Citizen.

[Ronnie Tay]

It can be either. The bottom line is, yeah, maybe in America you go bankrupt over medical costs, but at least everyone else does too. And if you don't like that, you should have thought of that before your appendix burst. And speaking of bursting, I better go. I need to get Russell a copy of the federal budget to help him finish the job. Russ, I'm actually worried now.

[Ronny Chieng]

Michael Kosta, everyone. I wouldn't. When we come back, we find out where Trump finds his law. So don't go.

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[Ronny Chieng]

Welcome back to the Daily Show. Despite what some people think, Donald Trump hasn't been acting lawlessly. He's just been acting on the laws that people didn't know still existed. Luckily, we found the person in charge of finding those laws.

[Stephen Miller]

I will invoke the Alien enemies Act of 18 oh of 1798.

[Ronny Chieng]

Think of that.

[Stephen Miller]

1798. That's when we had real politicians that said, we're not going to play games. We have to go back to 1798.

[Thaddeus Mandible Crowley]

Who has two thumbs and helped Trump find that law? As the kids would say, twas I. My name is Thaddeus Mandible Crowley and I am the White House's senior advisor for super old laws. When President Trump needs to dredge up some old forgotten law to justify whatever deliciously insane idea has popped into his head, they call me. So you want to leak laxatives into the LA water supply, convert the Harvard campus into a mud wrestling arena surround Charles Schumer's residence with anti Semitic tigers. How delightful. Let me see what I can find. I knew right from the start that Donald and I were going to click.

[Ronnie Tay]

One of his first executive orders. References the 1807 Insurrection Act.

[Thaddeus Mandible Crowley]

Most presidents focus on passing new laws, but Donald is special. He knows that everything he needs is already here somewhere. That's the beauty of America. Thousands upon thousands of laws that never expire, ready to be deployed hundreds of years later to justify the ethically dubious whims of our mercurial leader. Oh, yeah, that'll work. And I am intimately familiar with all of them since I was alive when they were written. How old are you? How old is the night? How old are the dreams of a nation? How old? Okay, nevermind. Some laws I'm keeping on standby just in case Donald should need them. This One here from 1832 says the President can fornicate with any state legislator if he deems it necessary for national security. This one from the Civil War era. Good times. Gives you immunity for crimes committed after the solstice if your child's height surpasses 8ft. Way to go, Baron. And this one here from 1762, just says, no uggos. He'll want that at some point. Some people say, thaddeus, can't you just look these laws up on the Internet? And to that I say, ha. Good luck finding this in your tangled world wide web. It's a scroll of ancient laws that I personally stole from the tomb of an Egyptian witch, saving this bad boy for the third time when Trump really lets loose. But that being said, yes, sometimes I'll use croc.

[Ronny Chieng]

Damn you, devil machine.

[Thaddeus Mandible Crowley]

I usually get one, maybe two semi fascist requests per week. Today's been pretty quiet.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Your message to Communist Zorhan Mandami.

[Stephen Miller]

Well, then we'll have to arrest him.

[Thaddeus Mandible Crowley]

Looks like on that, he's about to be busy. To the archives.

[Ronny Chieng]

Both.

[Thaddeus Mandible Crowley]

All of you. Is it glamorous working for the President? Not really. But serving this administration has been the honor of my life. Hello, Mr. President. Oh, Mr. Stephen Miller. What can I do for you? You need a law to justify feeding immigrants to other immigrants. Now, that man total weirdo. Gives me the creeps.

[Ronny Chieng]

When you come back, Kevin Wee will be joining me on the show, so don't go away.

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[Ronny Chieng]

Welcome back to the Daily Show. My guest tonight is a features editor at the Verge, an author whose latest novel is called My Documents. Please welcome the one and only Kevin Wynn. These. Are these all plants?

[Kevin Wynn]

Because people still read.

[Ronny Chieng]

Yeah. Thank Buddha that they still read. Thank you for writing a book so people can read it. Yeah, My Documents. Little Vietnamese on the top here. You want to explain yourself?

[Kevin Wynn]

Yeah, it's a title.

[Ronny Chieng]

Why you try to trick people into the title here?

[Kevin Wynn]

Well, it's a Vietnamese word, actually. It's pronounced me. And it's more like if you're Vietnamese, there's like a little bonus for you.

[Ronny Chieng]

It's a little Easter egg here.

[Kevin Wynn]

A little Easter egg.

[Ronny Chieng]

And the rest of us, we just look stupid saying my documents. Right. And you're like, you're just laughing to yourself every time I. And this is in reference to.

[Kevin Wynn]

Oh, yeah, America. It's the Vietnamese word for America.

[Ronny Chieng]

Right.

[Kevin Wynn]

You think it's just a reference to like Windows 95, right?

[Ronny Chieng]

Yeah. And what. I mean, you want to explain what the book is about?

[Kevin Wynn]

Sure, yeah. It imagines this far fetched dystopian future where the government is detaining people for no reason.

[Ronny Chieng]

Oh. Oh, okay.

[Kevin Wynn]

I've completely imagined this.

[Ronny Chieng]

Right? Yeah. I mean, you. You say that, but you did imagine this. Cause you wrote this. Came out earlier this year.

[Kevin Wynn]

Came out earlier this year.

[Ronny Chieng]

And so you wrote it. I mean, I think you started writing in 2018.

[Kevin Wynn]

2018. Yeah. Actually, I was writing this. I came up with this idea in the throes of the first Trump administration. And Trump had evoked, even back then, the Alien Enemies act, which is the. Basically like the threadbare piece of legislation that allowed FDR to incarcerate Japanese Americans during World War II. So I just kind of imagine, like, what if it happened again today and because I'm Vietnamese, I made it happen to Vietnamese people.

[Ronny Chieng]

Right. And that. What's the outcome? Is it good or it's not great?

[Kevin Wynn]

Yeah, yeah. They don't love it.

[Ronny Chieng]

What made you. What, like in the book. It's a real. I mean, I did read it. It's like exploration. It's a real. It's a.

[Kevin Wynn]

See, like the little.

[Ronny Chieng]

I put little notes just to make you believe me. See, look. I wrote. See, look. It's like pencil markings here. Yeah, no, but I mean, I'll get to some of the structural things in this book, which I find very interesting. I mean, whatever. I would say before I forget, like, one thing that's interesting about this book is that you kind of. The chapters kind of get shorter and shorter the more you get into it. And I was wondering, like, did you do that for like a dumbass TikTok generation? Cause I gotta tell you, I hate to admit it, but the shorter chapters kind of made it like. Oh, I can, you know, I can sneak another chapter in there and it's like watching a book reel. I don't know if that makes sense.

[Kevin Wynn]

No, it's. I mean, it's partly a way to make a book propulsive is to shorten the chapters.

[Ronny Chieng]

Right.

[Kevin Wynn]

An original version was like 100,000 words. And I sent it to my agent and she was like, you gotta make this shorter. And the next version I sent her was like 150,000 words. The one you get to read today is closer to 80. So it's much more reasonable.

[Ronny Chieng]

Yeah. And I mean, it's still, you know, a complete story. I don't know what you took out from the 120,000 word version, but. And it's kind of intense, man, because it goes. I mean, you open on this very personal story about your. It's based in reality about, I assume, the grandmother character here who was fleeing Vietnam. And it's her experience, Right.

[Kevin Wynn]

From her perspective, it's loosely based on some family lore. And then it goes in its own direction. But I don't know, it's just this interesting thing where thematically it's about what happens when you don't learn your own history.

[Ronny Chieng]

Sure.

[Kevin Wynn]

A bit of the foundation of this is I didn't learn about Japanese American incarceration until I got to college. I took a course about it and. And, you know, like, I think in middle school, I did an entire year about World War II and what happened to Japanese Americans. Didn't come up even once, not even for an afternoon. And I remember being so embarrassed about that. But also, you know, if your education system will not tell you these stories, how are you supposed to find them out? And then, you know, similar. Like, my parents are immigrants. They fled during the Vietnam War. There are certain stories like they won't tell me or didn't tell me for a Long time. Which is. Is there. Right. You know, but at what point, like, are we as a younger generation supposed to be curious about that? What happens when we aren't curious about that? So the book is about four young people who I think, in a way, start very incurious and are forced to become curious about their history.

[Ronny Chieng]

Sure. And, I mean, you're drawing direct parallels between the Vietnamese refugee experience and the fictional future.

[Kevin Wynn]

Yeah, the fictional future. That hasn't arrived yet.

[Ronny Chieng]

That hasn't arrived yet.

[Kevin Wynn]

The government is just disappearing people for no reason, for their political beliefs. I'm glad we're so far from that.

[Ronny Chieng]

Yeah, I mean, it's just all of a. This is like sci fi. It's almost unbelievable. So, I mean, what. I don't know if it's even easy for you to talk about, because I was reading this book and, I mean, you're not named in this book. You are writing a work of fiction, I think. But just reading, I was like, oh, this dude is working through some shit right here. Because the stuff you're going through, like, I feel like a lot of Asian people go through. I mean, not even necessarily Asian Americans. This idea of, like, you. You start off, even me in Malaysia, we start off, like, kind of not knowing much about the history of what happened there. You kind of almost reject it in a way, for whatever reason. Maybe it's because you're. You're kind of, you know, trying to be like, you're more a fan of Americana culture, so you're trying to, like, focus on that. You're geeking out on American stuff. So maybe you ignore whatever cultural history you have, whatever the reason is. I'm just saying that we all have this weird journey where now we ignore it most of our lives. And then we hit. Everyone hits their 20s, and then everyone goes to college, and then they get this like, oh, what? What the hell is going on in Asia? And then you start to read up more about it on your own, and then you're like, oh, man, I haven't been connected to this. So I feel like, yeah, I think.

[Kevin Wynn]

When people are young and maybe this is just us, but you just. You want to fit in. Right. And so just, like, learning about your individual history is not an appealing prospect. And yeah, like, when you say, like, I'm working through some shit, like, I don't know, have you tried to find a therapist lately? It's, like, impossible. It's just way easier to write 100,000 words of fiction.

[Ronny Chieng]

No, I don't look for a therapist. I'm Trying to monetize his mental illness as long as I can. That's all this is. Honestly, comedy. Yeah. And look how far it got me. So, therapy, yeah. You guys, you don't know what you're cheering for right there. You're cheering for no therapy. But, yeah, so there's. I mean, in this book, you also kind of. You kind of mock this idea of AAPI in America, this AAPI voting block that was created. I mean, I don't think I'm giving anything away, but there's a.

[Kevin Wynn]

It kind of started as a joke for myself when I was writing. The piece of legislation that sends all Vietnamese people to camp is called the American Advanced Protectionist Initiative, which, you know, the acronym is aapi. And I think even, like, as we got closer to publishing, I was like, is that, like, too on the nose? Is that not funny? Would the right wing really go after, like, acronyms of all things? And then as it was coming out, like, Trump just wouldn't say a single sentence without muttering dei.

[Ronny Chieng]

Right? And so, and I mean, that brings us to what I find interesting about this book is that you kind of. You're not tackling it from this kind of traditional left progressive. You're trying to be really nuanced with the views in it. I think, like, even this AAPI thing where you market, I mean, for me, sometimes I find it, like, weird. Like, what do you mean? AAPI Month? Like, I'm Asian all year. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know what. So what we get this month? And, like, don't, you know, don't. It's kind of condescending in a way. Sometimes when they're like, oh, yeah, we got the. Here's the Asian comics. Let's trot out these people who couldn't make it on the, you know, any other platform. And it's like, well, at what point does, you know, like, this kind of diversity thing become token and condescending and, you know.

[Kevin Wynn]

Yeah. I mean, the worst part, I think our month is May, right? So, like, we lead right into Pride Month, which is, like, clearly the better month, right? It's just so much more fun, you know, we're just, like, doing like, dumpling making.

[Ronny Chieng]

And then, like, Pride has, like a.

[Kevin Wynn]

Whole parade in, like, every city.

[Ronny Chieng]

So where do you stand on that, you know? Cause it's APM Month as a voting block in America. It's like one of the lines in this book is you go, like, one of the only things that seems to unfortunately unite Asian Americans is racism, as in People being racist to us.

[Kevin Wynn]

I mean, I just think that, like, you know, even though some people might think, like, you and I look alike, we don't. Our language is different. Our food's different.

[Ronny Chieng]

Back in the. Back in the old country, we hate each other.

[Kevin Wynn]

Yeah.

[Ronny Chieng]

You know what I mean? But here we're, like, forced to unite against.

[Kevin Wynn]

I know. Well, we're just, like, grinning through it. Right. We just. We do hate each other.

[Ronny Chieng]

Yeah. We hate each other, and then now. But here I'm forced to put you on my show, and then you'll. You're forced to. You know, you're forced to write a book about it. And then we all.

[Kevin Wynn]

Yeah, they wouldn't put me on during, like, a Josh Johnson week.

[Ronny Chieng]

Yeah. So, I mean, where do you stand on that in America?

[Kevin Wynn]

You know, like, at the same time, I think there is strength in solidarity, but sometimes in that, I think we lose the individuality. My day job, I work as a journalist. And then on the side, I write novels. And I think about the goals of each thing, even though they are both ostensibly writing. I think in journalism, you try and take a lot of muddy ideas and try to clarify it for the reader. And I think a powerful thing you can do in fiction is you can take assumptions or things people thought were clear and muddy it up. And so I think, like, in terms of Asian American identity, that's something that the book really challenges and muddies up a lot.

[Ronny Chieng]

And what's. I guess, you know, I give away the conclusion. Is there a conclusion to that? I mean, it's.

[Kevin Wynn]

I don't think there's, like, a strong takeaway. You know, it's not. The point of the book is not abolish the, you know, phrase Aapi. But I do think we should challenge it and we should really think about, individually what it means to be Asian American or if that's even a useful term anymore.

[Ronny Chieng]

Sure. And as someone who spent a lot of time, like you spent basically. I think you wrote this for five years.

[Kevin Wynn]

Yeah.

[Ronny Chieng]

Thinking about this scenario, thinking about the history of Asian Americans. And unfortunately, you know, the book kind of is catching up to reality now. Like, where do you. I mean, what do you have a takeaway for what we. Can you fix everything? Please, Please fix it.

[Kevin Wynn]

The answer is, really, it's actually on the last page of the book. So you'll just have to go buy the book and then see what's in for us. Now, I don't think there are, like, strong takeaways. You know, when I started writing it, I was like, I did want the book to be really grounded in reality. You know, a lot of the forces that are at play. You know, we've been living under the Department of Homeland Security for two decades. Some people act like ICE just emerged during this second Trump term. It's been with us for a very long time. You know, we have this history of Japanese American incarceration. We have the legacy of the Vietnam War, you know, like. And ICE has been detaining migrants. They've detained millions of migrants over the past decade. Like, what's happening right now has escalated, but it is not new. And so I think the goal of the book was to kind of draw, like, a line between all of these things. They seem like disparate forces in America, but I think they're actually all quite part of American history.

[Ronny Chieng]

Yeah. And I mean, I guess your hope by writing this is. I mean, what. Sorry if this is a hacky question, but that you get asked a lot. But, like, what. I mean, what do you hope people take away from this?

[Kevin Wynn]

I mean, I was just trying to avoid therapy, but I don't know. I think it's.

[Ronny Chieng]

Now you put it on us and now we all need therapy after reading this.

[Kevin Wynn]

No, I mean, the book is about a family that, like, muddles through or struggles and survives through this scenario. So I think there is something kind of hopeful about that. It's. It's about challenging the assumptions of your life and your family story and your family history and. Yeah. How we connect after that.

[Ronny Chieng]

Well, hey, thanks for, you know, contributing to trying to get people to read again. I really appreciate it. Thanks for taking the time to write a book and putting your own history into it. I think, you know, if nothing else, I hope people can get. I think it's nice that you put in the story of Vietnamese refugees in there at the start. It's very touching. It's very heartfelt. The very first chapter got me sucked in already. So thanks for sharing that and thanks for writing the book and thanks for coming on the show. Yeah, thanks for having me on my document. The novel is available now. It's Kevin Wayne, everybody. We're going to take a quick break. We'll be right back after this. Your sausage McMuffin with egg didn't change your receipt did. The sausage McMuffin with egg extra value meal includes a hash brown and a small co for just $5 only at McDonald's for a limited time. Prices and participation may vary.

[Kevin Wynn]

Hit pause on whatever you're listening to and hit play on your next adventure. This fall, get double points on every qualified stay Life's the trip. Make the most of it at best Western. Visit bestwestern.com for complete terms and conditions.

[Ronny Chieng]

That's our show for the night. Now here it is, your moment of Zen.

[Thaddeus Mandible Crowley]

Every Republican who's gone on TV the.

[Ronny Chieng]

Last 12 hours or so has called.

[Thaddeus Mandible Crowley]

This the Schumer Shutdown. What do you say about that name? Senator Schumer, can you hear me? I can't hear Senator Schumer. Can you hear me?

[Ronnie Tay]

Explore more shows from the Daily show podcast universe by searching the Daily Show. Wherever you get your podcasts, watch the Daily show weeknights at 1110 Central on Comedy Central and stream full episodes anytime on Paramount.

[Ronny Chieng]

Plus.

[Ronnie Tay]

This has been a Comedy Central podcast.