Stephen Colbert (1:55)

Would you do any. Have you done any of this? Have you got anything?

Joe Rogan (1:57)

I would do almost everything. I would have done a lot of the crazy stunts. They look like fun. But the insurance clause.

Stephen Colbert (2:01)

What would you not have done?

Joe Rogan (2:02)

The insurance clause, they have a huge one.

Stephen Colbert (2:04)

You guys have insurance waiver.

Joe Rogan (2:05)

It's like 42 pages long.

Ryan Holiday (2:06)

Yeah.

Stephen Colbert (2:06)

Really?

Joe Rogan (2:07)

Oh, do we have insurance? Oh, my God. It's ridiculous. I mean, you've seen some of the stunts.

Stephen Colbert (2:10)

So can you. Like, on this show, I can pretty much be high every night. Like, it doesn't matter. But for your show, are there things that they have to do?

Joe Rogan (2:18)

Yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure I couldn't be high.

Stephen Colbert (2:20)

Let me ask you this, because I read. I. I haven't Had a chance to see.

Joe Rogan (2:23)

It looked like I was high when I was reading the warning, though. Could I be a warning?

Stephen Colbert (2:26)

That was menacing. But that.

Jon Stewart (2:27)

Seriously.

Stephen Colbert (2:27)

That was the most menacing disclaimer. That was one of those.

Joe Rogan (2:30)

When it finally came out after the jackass thing, they were gonna have no disclaimer. And then the kid burned himself. Like, oh, my God. And they just wanted to protect themselves against the tards. Like, everywhere you go, whatever you do.

Stephen Colbert (2:41)

Hey, Joe, disclaimer. Let me just get this straight. You went, the kid burned himself. And then they were like, oh, we

Joe Rogan (2:46)

gotta worry about kids burning themselves. That's exactly how I did.

Stephen Colbert (2:49)

Here's what was read in the thing. These are the critics. Tom Shale's Washington Post says, a sickening exercise in cruelty and rotten and despicable. Wall Street Journal, the most depressing, nauseating, disgusting prime time series to date. And Joel Siegel, Good Morning America, thrill ride of the summer, number one. Now, what do you do when you wake up the next day and you see that stuff?

Trevor Noah (3:13)

Does it?

Joe Rogan (3:13)

Ah, first of all, they're critics. And anybody who sets out to become a critic is a loser. That is a fact. Critics are all failures. No one wants to be a critic. They're failed authors and screen. They are dodgeball victims. And that's why these people are writing these little scathing reviews. No one sets out to make their life's work to critique other people's chances. Those people are all. Every single one of them. Every one of them. That is a fact.

Stephen Colbert (3:43)

Can I tell you what I feel bad about? What is I was a dodgeball loser.

Trevor Noah (3:47)

Well, you know what?

Stephen Colbert (3:48)

I'm trying to separate myself because I.

Joe Rogan (3:50)

There's two types of people in the world. People that were throwing and people that were ducking.

Jon Lovett (3:53)

All right?

Stephen Colbert (3:53)

But you default people. There were people getting hit in the face. I was getting hit in the face. I was got. Can you still see? Did you stand still?

Joe Rogan (4:01)

Didn't you try to duck?

Stephen Colbert (4:02)

No, I didn't stand still. I was like 1 foot 4. What was I supposed to do? How did you attempt to duck?

Joe Rogan (4:08)

You're classified as a ducker, but I

Stephen Colbert (4:10)

probably still owe you lunch money, even though I didn't go to school with you.

Joe Rogan (4:14)

Dude, I was not a lunch money taker. I threw the dodgeball, but I never took anybody's lunch money.

Stephen Colbert (4:18)

I think that's wise. But this is fun for you. You're having a good time.

Joe Rogan (4:21)

It's fun. And it really is fun for the people who do the show honestly, right?

Stephen Colbert (4:24)

They have a lot of fun and they do get 50,000 bucks.

Joe Rogan (4:26)

Well, somebody does.

Stephen Colbert (4:27)

You don't think anybody's gonna die from this thing?

Joe Rogan (4:28)

No, no, no, no. But by the time it gets to the stunt, when we pass the stunt people, it's been done so many times. It's like meticulously planned out. These guys coordinate everything, like weeks and weeks and weeks in advance. The stunt guys test it and retest it. They're not gonna let anything that's any more dangerous than playing, like a game of tag football. Seriously, it just.

Trevor Noah (4:46)

Can I tell you how bad.

Stephen Colbert (4:47)

Honestly, I broke my collarbone playing tag football.

Joe Rogan (4:49)

You hurt yourself in tag football?

Stephen Colbert (4:51)

I was just gonna tell you though, that that idea about planning the show out, I'm gonna try that. Cause we so don't do that.

Joe Rogan (4:59)

You should always try to plan things out.

Stephen Colbert (5:00)

God damn it. It's good to see you, though.

Joe Rogan (5:03)

Good to see you.

Stephen Colbert (5:03)

And you're having fun. You gonna get back into the acting thing and do all that?

Joe Rogan (5:06)

If it's fun, if it's fine. I'm a stand up comedian. That's what I love to do.

Stephen Colbert (5:09)

I'm still doing that going around.

Joe Rogan (5:10)

Everything else I just do for money.

Stephen Colbert (5:11)

Really. Very funny one at that. Joe Rogan, the whore of Joe Rogan.

Hannah (5:17)

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Interviewer (5:49)

My guests tonight are the founders of Crooked Media, who created the popular political podcast podsave America. Please welcome Jon Favreau, Jon Lovitz, and Tommy Vida, everybody. This is fun.

Stephen Colbert (6:11)

Yeah.

Interviewer (6:12)

I've never had three cups on the desk before.

Trevor Noah (6:13)

That's a lot of cups.

Stephen Dubner (6:14)

Yeah.

Interviewer (6:14)

Looks like we're gonna play one of those. Those games. Uh, let's get straight into it. First of all, big fan of what you guys do on the podcast Pod Save America. A lot of people don't know this, but the two of you started off as or recently worked as speechwriters for President Barack Obama. How does it feel seeing President Obama out there on his own without you guys?

Jon Lovett (6:37)

Uh, it's not like a baby cub. I mean, he's.

Jon Stewart (6:39)

No, but I mean, emotionally.

Interviewer (6:40)

There must be some connection, though. You guys roll together for so long.

Ryan Holiday (6:43)

I miss him. I miss working with him.

Interviewer (6:44)

Yeah, that's what I'm looking for.

Jon Stewart (6:45)

Yeah, sorry.

Trevor Noah (6:46)

Little humanity.

Jon Stewart (6:46)

That's what I'm looking for.

Interviewer (6:47)

Never occurs to me that's exactly what

Jon Lovett (6:49)

I'm gonna fit from now on. I'll fake it.

Joe Rogan (6:50)

You guys go.

Jon Lovett (6:50)

You guys go.

Jon Stewart (6:51)

I'll catch up.

Interviewer (6:51)

You gotta fake the emotion.

Jon Lovett (6:52)

It's also nice. You miss seeing someone leading the country that was like, is a good person

Jon Stewart (6:56)

that loves family and, like, cares deeply

Jon Lovett (6:58)

about what he's doing and takes it seriously.

Jon Stewart (6:59)

I miss that every day.

Ryan Holiday (7:00)

When you see Trump, who's just. I mean, that's the hardest thing.

Interviewer (7:03)

I like how you just end on. Who doesn't. Normally you'd be like, who doesn't? Exhibit the same. Who doesn't? He just doesn't. Let's. Let's talk about the podcast. You guys started off your podcast, but then you moved it to, you know, your media company, Crooked Media. Great name. Um, and now it really is. There's a certain level of activism that's involved in the podcast. Why did you make that decision?

Ryan Holiday (7:24)

We thought it's an important time to. There's a lot of people out there who are scared of the Trump presidency, and maybe they haven't paid attention to politics in a long time, and they're saying, how can we get involved? What can we do? How can we help? That's the question we always got when we did our podcast before. And so we want to help people answer that question.

Jon Lovett (7:40)

I mean, the political conversation is broken, right?

Ryan Holiday (7:42)

I mean, you see it on TV

Jon Lovett (7:43)

every day, you see it on cable.

Ryan Holiday (7:45)

Why don't people help them figure out what is going on, what's important, and

Jon Lovett (7:48)

how can they get involved?

Interviewer (7:49)

Now, you don't just criticize. I mean, the Democrats are also in an interesting situation where many people are saying the party isn't where it should have been after a president who was as strong as Barack Obama was. The president himself said he didn't do a great job of keeping the grassroots, I guess, mobilized. Keith Ellison complained about that as well. If you're looking at that going forward and you were strategizing, what would you think the Democrats need to do to, I guess, begin a game plan for the next election?

Jon Lovett (8:18)

I think that's the hardest question, right? That's a question everybody's got to figure out how to answer. Because we lost. We lost the presidency, we've lost the Senate, we lost the House, we've lost the governorships, we've lost state legislatures. So that's not great. Right? So it's a rebuilding year. You know, I'm sorry.

Trevor Noah (8:31)

It sucks.

Jon Lovett (8:32)

But we're in real bad shape, guys. But the good news is, I think that it is a wake up call. I think people were complacent, and now Trump is president. We are feeling the consequences of that. There's never been this much energy. You have people marching, you have people going to protest, you have people showing up at airports, climate marches, women marches, women's marches. And I think the fundamental question is, how do you harness that energy and turn it into. And turn it into votes. Right. Turn it into people knocking on doors and going to the polls. Not just on a presidential year where we won by 3 million votes. Right. But in off years.

Ryan Holiday (9:00)

I also think we've got the opposition part down, and now we need to figure out what we stand for, have a positive message that connects with people, that, you know, an economic agenda that will help change people's lives and just give people something to vote for. I think that's something we learned from the last few weeks.

Interviewer (9:14)

It's interesting. Yeah, you can applaud for that.

Hannah (9:16)

That's fine.

Interviewer (9:17)

You can applaud. It's interesting that you say, so you've got the opposition part down. Because during the campaign, a lot of people felt like Hillary shifted her focus too much to being against Trump and not enough to being for her platform. You were asked to write on the Hillary campaign, and I believe you said, no, I, I can't write for this. I, I cannot carry on writing for Hillary because it feels like this is, like, speech by committee. What does that mean?

Jon Lovett (9:50)

There's a lot of, like, Monday morning quarterbacking, like we talked about this, that, like, everything went wrong. Right. There's a lot of decisions that she made that could have made the difference. She lost by too few votes for that not to be true. But she was out there talking about economic issues. It wouldn't get covered because everybody was talking about Trump, which is a challenge we should learn from. I'm not doing that to make excuses for Hillary Clinton. I'll go after Hillary Clinton. I don't care. What's she gonna do to me? Nothing. But she's just a woman in Chappaqua.

Trevor Noah (10:12)

But

Jon Lovett (10:15)

I think, come on, Hillary. We're gonna get Hillary. We're gonna get Hillary on this show. This show, our show, all the shows off to that.

Interviewer (10:21)

Yeah, she's definitely on the show.

Trevor Noah (10:23)

We'll get him on both shows.

Interviewer (10:24)

She's gonna come to your show so you can come after her. I feel it. I can feel it.

Jon Lovett (10:27)

But I think it's important to learn that it's really hard to get the media to focus on an economic policy speech when the only part they're gonna put on television is the one minute where you go after Trump. Right? Like, that was a big problem for their campaign, which is something we should learn from right now.

Trevor Noah (10:43)

I.

Interviewer (10:45)

I honestly could spend hours talking to you guys. Your podcast. The podcast is fascinating. The three of you are fascinating. Unfortunately, I do not have the time, and that's why we listen to the podcast. Thank you so much for being on the show.

Jon Lovett (10:55)

Thank you for having us.

Interviewer (10:56)

I appreciate it. Thank you very much.

Trevor Noah (10:57)

Tommy, John, Jon. Appreciate you too much.

Interviewer (11:00)

Be sure to subscribe to Pod, Save America and go to getcrookedmedia.com for more podcasts. Jon Favreau, Jon Lovett, and Tommy Vito, everybody.

Jon Stewart (11:07)

We'll be right back.

Hannah (11:11)

My guest tonight is an actor, activist, and the host of the smartless media podcast, Bad Dates. Please. Welco Jameela. Jamil.

Interviewer (11:26)

Oh, my God.

Hannah (11:40)

The fashion alone. I knew you'd be bringing the fashion.

Jon Stewart (11:43)

I knew it.

Jameela Jamil (11:44)

And I brought my little bag. This is weird that I bring my handbag on television.

Hannah (11:49)

You don't trust anybody.

Jameela Jamil (11:50)

No, it is. I think it's specifically like a woman of color thing where we're just always ready for some sort of shit to go down. Well, we want to be prepared.

Hannah (11:58)

Don't trust anyone. No, don't trust anyone.

Jameela Jamil (12:00)

Least of all you, babe.

Hannah (12:02)

Yeah.

Jameela Jamil (12:02)

Well, you're doing so wonderfully. I'm loving you on the show.

Interviewer (12:07)

Incredible.

Hannah (12:09)

I am loving you. I am a huge fan of yours. You have a new podcast out, Bad Dates.

Jon Stewart (12:14)

Yes.

Hannah (12:14)

It is so funny. You get the best guests and they come on and they tell these horrendous worst date stories.

Jon Stewart (12:21)

Yeah.

Jameela Jamil (12:21)

It's so disgusting. It's unbelievable. Never listen to it with any of your children.

Hannah (12:26)

Oh, no, that's a bad idea.

Jameela Jamil (12:28)

Or your parents. It's so filthy. It's so funny. And it's not about, like, traumatic bad dates. It's just about the silliest things we've ever done on the road to love. Or shagging. Or both.

Hannah (12:38)

You told a horrible date story.

Jameela Jamil (12:41)

Oh, the one that almost gave Al Roqa a heart attack?

Hannah (12:45)

A heart attack?

Jon Stewart (12:45)

Yeah, yeah.

Hannah (12:46)

For the second time. Oh, God. Sorry.

Jameela Jamil (12:49)

Didn't know about the first one.

Hannah (12:50)

Yes. Yes. No, no. I don't know. I just made that up. I totally made that up. No, you did, but it was a great story. And has that guy ever come back?

Jameela Jamil (13:00)

No, but everyone's looking for him. Everyone's looking for him. Cause he's a. He's a famous man. Basically, there was an incident with he. Oh, God. He took three steps into my apartment, passed out and had a seizure. And all of his front teeth broke and flew across my apartment. And I had to call 911, which was actually really exciting if you're English and you've seen it done in the movies. But I did that. The police come in and the ambulance and the fire brigade and everyone's trying to resuscitate him. They bring him back too, and they're like, sir, have you taken anything? He's like, yeah, I've had a little bit of cocaine, but I always take cocaine. And I was like, oh, sure, red flag, red flag. And then. And they were like, have you taken anything else? And he was like, no. And they start pulling the blanket over his body and as they go past his penis, he gets rock hard. And he looks at me like bleeding with such regret and goes, I might

Hannah (14:03)

have had some Viagra.

Jameela Jamil (14:12)

Toothless and disgrace.

Hannah (14:15)

Oh, such a beautiful first date story. Thank you. Yeah, thank you. This is.

Jameela Jamil (14:21)

It's not James. It's not my boyfriend James.

Hannah (14:24)

And now they're together. They're in a healthy relationship. This is reason alone why they should start regulating erectile dysfunction medications as much as they regulate the abortion pill. So you won't say who it is. It was an actor. Is it Chris Evans?

Jameela Jamil (14:42)

It's not Chris Evans.

Hannah (14:43)

Is it Chris Pine?

Jameela Jamil (14:45)

But he has had a beard ever since. Cause he split his chin open that day and had loads of stitches. So just look under the chins of all of your next few guests and you'll maybe find it.

Hannah (14:55)

Oh my God, it's such a funny

Jameela Jamil (14:59)

so to honey, isn't it?

Hannah (15:03)

So you hear all these horrible bad date stories.

Kara Swisher (15:07)

Yeah.

Hannah (15:07)

What if you could give a piece of advice to people who are out there dating right now, having heard all these stories, what would you say?

Jameela Jamil (15:14)

Anything's a dildo if you're brave enough.

Hannah (15:17)

I love that. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers for that. Thank you. Thank you for the work that you do. It's so appreciated. You guys. Bad Days.

Jameela Jamil (15:32)

We're holding hands.

Trevor Noah (15:33)

We're going to.

Hannah (15:34)

We're going to read this together. Bad Days is available on Amazon Music and Wondery Jameela Jamil. Hello, everybody.

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Interviewer (18:22)

so earlier today I spoke with one of my favorite authors and a best selling author, Malcolm Gladwell. We talked about his podcast Revisionist History and how you can teach yourself to think the way you don't think. Check it out. Malcolm Gladwell welcome to the Daily Social Distancing Show.

Malcolm Gladwell (18:38)

Thank you. I'm very flattered to be to be on it.

Interviewer (18:41)

I'm honored to have you here, because I said this to you before we started recording. But I'll say it to you again while people are watching, so there's witnesses. You are one of the people who has taught me to always question what I think I know about the world. And you, you're an expert in doing that in your books. You know, you. You, you create and tell stories about things that are seemingly unconnected. And then by the end of the story or by the end of the book, we start to realize how everything is connected or how everything affects something else in a way that we never thought possible. Your podcast does that as well. And one of my favorite episodes on the podcast is where you talk about elections. And what was really mind blowing for me was getting to a place where I realized as human beings, we are horrible at predicting who is going to be a good leader. And so I found myself at the end of that episode of the podcast going like, wow, maybe, maybe elections should be lotteries. Maybe we should have no elections, no money being spent, no people campaigning, just a lottery system of all the people who want to run, should run. Do you still stick by that, though? Is that something that you believe in when you look at elections?

Malcolm Gladwell (19:47)

The cues we use to predict who's gonna be a good leader are false or they are faulty. Do I think that should be true of a presidential campaign? No. But I do think there is a way to restructure our elections where we do cast the net a lot wider. And maybe at a local level, we should go with lotteries as a way of picking who our leaders should be. I think there is something to that.

Interviewer (20:13)

Right now, America's going through a really, really tough time. I think it's exacerbated by coronavirus. The George Floyd protests have now swelled into a nationwide movement where people in the country are saying, we want to see change predominantly within the police force. For those who think they have an idea of police, police reform, defunding the police, or even abolition, what do you think some of the unthought thoughts should be about this whole process?

Malcolm Gladwell (20:43)

Well, my question would be we've done a very good job, I think, in the last couple of months focusing on what reform of, of police behavior in this country looks like now? I think it's time for us to turn the attention on ourselves. What are the kinds of things we can do, non police officers can do to make the job of policing better in this country? And I think that's the part we've neglected. We make the police in this country deal with things like mental illness and homelessness. Why? Because we have radically underfunded the social support mechanisms for those two social problems. The cops get that job by default. It's a really hard job. They are not trained to do it, and they don't want to do it right. And so what we're doing is we've taken a group of people who already have an insanely difficult job. We've made it a lot harder. Why? Because we're too cheap and we're too unfeeling and we're too lazy to build adequate support systems for people who are very much in need in our country. So there's a case where I think stage two is time for people like me and you and all of us to stand up and say, okay, I am willing to support greater funding for homeless services for the mentally ill in order to improve the quality of policing in this country, among other reasons. That's where I think we should be headed right now. And I feel like if people in the police department saw that, they would be much more willing to embrace reforms because they would say, you know what? We're all in this together. It's a very different place to start a reform conversation than a conversation that's all about, here's what you're doing wrong.

Interviewer (22:26)

It's interesting because actually, you're the perfect person for me to ask this to, because there's a puzzle that I've been trying to solve in my brain, and the puzzle that I have is around protest. Right? In America right now, there's an interesting conundrum. People go, what is the correct way to protest? And although I'm distilling it down, there seems to be two schools of thought. Protest should be something that doesn't, you know, disrupt the status quo, doesn't, like, break anything, doesn't, you know, put anybody out of their way. Another school of thought is no. The very definition of protest is that it is meant to make society itself uncomfortable and, you know, not be able to live its life as if everything is normal. And I think to myself, protest in many ways is defined by your standing in life. You know, so the more you have, the less of a tolerance you'll have for protest. In all your studies and in the work that you look at and in the ideas, have you come across anything, or do you even think the mind of Malcolm Gladwell can go, like, there is a definitive answer to this, or is this something that society has never, ever, ever figured out?

Malcolm Gladwell (23:25)

Yeah, there is no definitive answer. I mean, it's Funny you said that. I would be the perfect person to ask. I would say, actually, you are. You're South African. The best contemporary example of how to handle a successful protest reform movement last 25 years is Nelson Mandela.

Interviewer (23:47)

Right.

Malcolm Gladwell (23:48)

And what does Mandela have in common with other successful historical examples? Martin Luther King, we could make a list. Gandhi. That their protest is purposeful, disciplined. What I would like to see from the protests that we have now is that same discipline and purposefulness. I think we have it in large part, but there are times when it doesn't seem to be either of those things. When a bunch of people get out of control and just start breaking windows, then I say, I don't really know what that is achieving. When I see people, those kinds of protests that were in New York or in major cities where tens of thousands of people would march purposefully and peacefully with one voice demonstrating the world that this is not some minor niche group in society that's upset. This is everyone. That, to my mind, I had a number of people who studied police reform very closely say to me that that had tremendous impact in moving in getting people like Congress to take police reform seriously.

Interviewer (24:59)

So that was. That's one side of my brain. There is another argument, though, and that is that without that side of the protests, they wouldn't have been seen as the. The.

Trevor Noah (25:09)

The.

Interviewer (25:09)

The reasonable person to deal with. The reasonable.

Stephen Dubner (25:12)

You know?

Interviewer (25:12)

You know what I mean? People say Martin Luther King Jr. Needed Malcolm as much as the other needed the other. That's the puzzle I'm playing with in my head as I go, like, is. Is it. Is it the peaceful protest that works, or is it the fact that the peaceful protest is seen as peaceful relative to another protest? You. You get what I'm saying? So, for instance, Colin Kaepernick was protesting peacefully. He was met with the utmost resistance that anyone could be met with. And I'm sure now if he kneeled, people will say, well, that's a much better way to protest than breaking a window.

Malcolm Gladwell (25:45)

Yeah, yeah, I do think there's something to what you're saying. I would only add that to my mind there is an immediate existential threat to all of this, which is the possibility that Trump gets reelected. And all I care about right now is that we get through this election intact. An awful lot of what we're seeing that is malignant and pathological in America right now is simply a result of this guy in the White House. So, you know, my fear, I don't know whether it's legit fear or not, but Part of me worries that the more violent kinds of protests have the effect of aiding Trump's reelection.

Interviewer (26:24)

Before I let you go, you have done a lot of work looking at the way human beings see each other, the way human beings interact with each other, and how that can define progress or a stagnant society. Is there a better way for us to communicate, specifically, I should say, with people we don't agree with? And I'm not talking about Nazis. I'm just talking about people who we just have, like, some, you know, political disagreements with.

Malcolm Gladwell (26:52)

We need to find a way to communi. To understand the complexity of the people we're talking to. So you and I could come, could make a list of all of our identities. You know, you are South African, you are biracial, you are a comedian, you are a successful author. And you and I may have profound disagreements along one of those lines, but we may agree on six of them. And I feel like what's happened in our society now is, you know, you'll talk to someone who loves Trump and you'll assume that's the most important dimension in their life and that the difference between you and that person politically is irrevocable. There's no way you can bridge that gap. But then if you talk to them for a little longer, you would discover, you know, they're a massive basketball fan and so are you, they love. And I think a lot of times those other identities are a lot more important than the ones we spend all of our time obsessing over. And I think it's time for us to start looking for ways to find common ground with people and getting beyond the most kind of obvious and salient of their identities.

Interviewer (28:03)

I could talk to you for hours, but luckily I've got the podcast for that I've got the books. Thank you for taking the time. Congratulations on another wonderful podcast season, and I hope we'll be seeing many more.

Malcolm Gladwell (28:13)

Thank you. Trevor.

Stephen Dubner (28:18)

My guest tonight is considered one of the leading stewards of stoic. He's behind the daily stoic. Stillness is the key. The obstacle is the way, and much more. Please welcome Ryan Holiday.

Trevor Noah (28:39)

Ryan, welcome to the show.

Ryan Holiday (28:41)

Thank you for having me.

Stephen Dubner (28:42)

Ryan, I've been a fan of yours for quite some time. You're a popular man. 12 best selling books. That's a lot of books. That's almost more books than I've read. But you have a lot of fans out there, from very successful comedians like myself to folks in the NFL, to senators, sort of what you speak to goes across many aisles. If you will. For those who don't know a Stoic philosopher, what are the tenets of Stoicism?

Ryan Holiday (29:07)

Stoicism, if I had to summarize it in one sentence, I would say it's this idea that we don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens. And the Stoics say that basically every situation, big ones, small ones, ones you wanted, ones you didn't want, it's all an opportunity to respond with these four virtues. The virtues are courage, discipline, justice, and wisdom. So the idea is that that is what life is asking from you. One or all of those virtues in some kind of a combination. That's what it's demanding of you. And what's cool about the Stoics is like, I think when people hear philosopher, they think like, you know, a tweed jacket or an old white guy in a toga or whatever.

Stephen Dubner (29:49)

Sure.

Ryan Holiday (29:50)

But the Stoics were philosophers, they were thinkers, but they were also doers. The most well known Stoic is Marcus Aurelius, who's the Emperor of Rome, the philosopher king. But there were Stoics who were slaves, who were soldiers, who were artists. There were men and women. They were people trying to do what we're all trying to do, which is make sense of the crazy world that we live in.

Stephen Dubner (30:11)

Right, right. I think a criticism of Stoicism is, if you look at, Is it a philosophy that comes from a place of privilege?

Ryan Holiday (30:17)

Sure.

Stephen Dubner (30:18)

For people that are in situations where. Where even institutional situations, you look at things like racism, activism, movements, where, like, the situation that they cannot control is one that is inherently oppressive. Is Stoicism teaching you how to accept those things and not push back? Is there inherent privilege in there?

Ryan Holiday (30:39)

It's hard to get more privilege than the Emperor of Rome. Right. But the philosopher that influences Marcus Aurelius more than any other philosopher, who he quotes in his writings all the time, is this guy named Epictetus, who is a slave, the exact opposite of Marcus. You have extreme power and you have extreme powerlessness. All throughout history, the Stoics have been involved in social movements and positive change making. Because, yes, there's a lot we don't control, but we do control what we do. We control whether we vote, whether we go out to a protest, whether we speak out about something. Right. So courage is one of the virtues, justice is another virtue. Discipline is a virtue, and then wisdom is a virtue. All of these, I think, propel us into being informed and then being active in the world.

Stephen Dubner (31:23)

How do we utilize something like this? So I. I go on the road, I talk to a lot of folks, and I get into infuriating conversations more often than not.

Interviewer (31:30)

Yeah.

Stephen Dubner (31:31)

People ask me, how do you deal with something like that? And I. I do go to philosophy. I go to bourbon as well. A hell of a philosopher. I don't know if you know the philosopher Bookers.

Jon Stewart (31:43)

He's great.

Stephen Dubner (31:44)

Macallan is a great one. A Scottish philosopher. He's great. But I do find elements of like, again, controlling your response and your temper, and also empathy. Help me get out of things like that. People also. I talk to a lot of people who are really frustrated with what's going on both sides of the aisle. They're scary times. People turn to God. I think less and less people are turning to God. Like, what do you say? And what can people find in philosophy, in Stoic philosophy that can help them, that can provide a balm to days where you wonder just how long we're gonna be able to fight this battle, Whether it's climate change, whether it's democracy, whether it's just getting up in the morning.

Ryan Holiday (32:25)

Yeah. Philosophy at its best is what they call the guide to the good life, to human flourishing, not just to happiness, but productivity and purpose and meaning and being able to endure suffering and pain and loss as we all have to go through in life. But I think if we can see philosophy as something we lean on, something that gives us counsel, that's really helpful, not as this thing that only people in universities do, but that it's, like, there for all of us. I think one of the problems is, as those other systems have fallen away, whether people are turning away from the church or they're disillusioned with higher education, or they're disillusioned with the media, like, where do they go? They go to random stuff on the Internet. And a lot of those people are grifters, or they're trying to weaponize those feelings or those doubts or those emotions of those people. And so, you know, people end up down these dead ends, and we can pity them, but also understand that, like, that's not a good way to go.

Stephen Dubner (33:24)

If you had to replace a philosophy quote, if you had to replace Live, Laugh, Love, one of my faves, One of my faves. What should I. If I take that down from my living room.

Ryan Holiday (33:38)

You're looking for a sign at home Goods.

Stephen Dubner (33:39)

I need a nice sign at home. What should I look at every day?

Ryan Holiday (33:42)

Marcus opens book two of Meditations with a thought. He says, today, the people you will meet will be jealous and Stupid and annoying and obnoxious and mean.

Stephen Dubner (33:52)

Right.

Ryan Holiday (33:53)

He goes on.

Joe Rogan (33:54)

He's racking.

Stephen Dubner (33:54)

Yes.

Ryan Holiday (33:55)

He's preparing for the day ahead. Right. And so some people think this is depressive stoicism at its best. But then he goes, but you can't hate them, and you can't let them implicate you in ugliness, he says, because we're meant to work together. We're like two rows of teeth or two hands, and that we're all part of this large thing together. And that some people are fulfilling their role by being the kind of people that you have to interview. And then the rest of us are doing the best we can. And that is life.

Stephen Dubner (34:23)

I love it. And that is life. Ryan Holiday, everybody.

Hannah (34:29)

My guest tonight is a journalist and entrepreneur who hosts on with Kara Swisher and Pivot. Her latest bestselling book is called Burn A Tech Love Story. Please welcome Kara Swisher. I gotta tell you, I enjoyed this very much.

Kara Swisher (34:58)

Thank you.

Hannah (34:59)

It says A tech love story, but it reads like a burn book, baby. That's correct. Yeah. Can we talk about this weird transformation that all these tech bros have because something happens to them over the years? We have some examples here. This is. Yeah, here he is, Zuckerberg. So in his own then Bezos.

Kara Swisher (35:18)

I remember those pants. He wore them a lot.

Hannah (35:20)

Yeah. And then what happens? Is there like a douche code or something that they.

Kara Swisher (35:25)

Well, you know, it's interesting when you get that rich, you can avail yourself to all kinds of, say, human growth hormone or steroids or whatever, and they want to sort of live forever. My next book is about this, actually. The fact that a lot of this Live Forever stuff has been started by tech people because they want to live forever and continue to have their brain. I mean, a lot of people think AI, especially because there's so many men running it, especially white men, is their way of having children. Right. That they want to. They want to continue themselves through the AI.

Hannah (35:54)

All just ego, just crazy ego narcissism,

Kara Swisher (35:57)

ego delusion, things like that.

Hannah (36:00)

What is this bromance between Donald Trump and Elon Musk? Are you. You say you think it's going to crumble and fail miserably.

Kara Swisher (36:08)

There can be only one attention whore. Speaking of whores. But I do think that. And even when he was jumping around on stage, did you notice Donald Trump, like, sucking up my oxygen?

Hannah (36:18)

He didn't love it.

Kara Swisher (36:19)

He didn't love it. And they didn't like each other before Trump attacked him relentlessly. I have so many texts where Elon was attacking Trump very similar to JD Vance didn't like him, thought he was an idiot, called him an oaf and things like that. And then suddenly he realized whatever happened to him. And it's a mix of, you know, Covid issues around his family. Obviously the journal's written about his ketamine use and everything else. And so this combined into this. He sort of soured the way the Internet did, the way Twitter did. But now he sees how easy he can manipulate Donald Trump because it's not very hard. And especially he just. $75 million is very attractive to someone like Donald Trump. Of course.

Hannah (36:59)

I have one final question for you as the tech esque expert in the entire universe.

Kara Swisher (37:06)

The universe, yeah.

Hannah (37:08)

What happens if I don't accept the cookies?

Kara Swisher (37:20)

We're way past cookies now.

Hannah (37:25)

You're one sweet cookie. Thanks for coming. Thank you. Gordon. Book is available now. Karen Swisher, everybody.

Trevor Noah (37:36)

My guest tonight is the host of Freakonomics radio and co author of Freakonomics. Now In a new 20th anniversary edition, please welcome Mr. Stephen Dubner. Thank you. Thanks for coming on the show.

Jon Stewart (38:05)

You're welcome. Thank you.

Trevor Noah (38:06)

For 20 years, I read this book in college and it changed the way I saw the world. Why is everything in this wrong?

Jon Stewart (38:15)

Well, We didn't have chatgpt yet.

Trevor Noah (38:28)

Let's start with the title Freakonomics. Come on. Like that makes everyone think it's a study on like diddy parties or something.

Jon Stewart (38:36)

That's what our publisher thought. They said there's no way we can call this book Freakonomics. They said, do you know what freak means? And I thought I did, but then they said it has to do with children, animals, sex, things like that. I didn't actually know.

Trevor Noah (38:50)

But you went with anyway.

Jon Stewart (38:51)

We persevered. Yes.

Trevor Noah (38:52)

And it's a real. I mean, before we get into the substance of the book, it's almost a triumph of publishing this story that you made this book. Because when you wrote it, co wrote it, you guys didn't think that it was gonna become the phenomenon.

Jon Stewart (39:05)

We did not.

Ryan Holiday (39:06)

We did not.

Jon Stewart (39:06)

Every, I think every writer like you finish your manuscript, then it goes to the publisher and they're getting it ready. And that's the period that we call the lull before the lull. Cause you assume that like, you work hard on it, but most books, you know how many books are published every year? It's like 250,000. And most people, the average American reads like zero.

Trevor Noah (39:26)

So. So the numbers are not good.

Jon Stewart (39:29)

The numbers are not good.

Trevor Noah (39:31)

You could say that Freakonomics don't make sense in that one. But when you. I like the. It's an interesting story you talk about in the foreword of this 20th edition that you called it Freakonomics, your publisher said that name's not going to work, and you did it. And so it kind of freed you from the burden of expectation and you wrote the book youk Want. Is that because the publisher kind of gave up on it after you named it that? No. In the sense. No. Was the publisher going like, hey, these are not listening to us anyway. You don't want to listen. We're just publishers. What do we know? We just sell books every day. You don't listen to us. Okay, Write whatever the you want. And then you wrote it and it blew up. And then you were like rubbing in their faces the whole time.

Jon Stewart (40:09)

Yes, that is exactly what happened.

Malcolm Gladwell (40:11)

Yes.

Jon Stewart (40:12)

Very awesome.

Trevor Noah (40:13)

No, I love it. Yeah, dude, we all love our underdog showbiz stories of sticking it to metal thumb, you know, producers and studios. And I mean, in case for the less educated people here who don't know, this book is divided into kind of almost case studies. Yeah, right. Which is also unconventional structure for a book.

Jon Stewart (40:36)

Yeah, that's true.

Stephen Dubner (40:36)

Yeah.

Jon Stewart (40:37)

Yeah, we didn't have. So I have a co author, Steve Levitt, who was on this show, probably in the studio right near here, but not the same one. 20 years ago when the book first came out, he was on with Jon Stewart.

Trevor Noah (40:47)

Oh, sorry. I'm sorry you had to come on with me.

Jon Stewart (40:51)

And yeah, we didn't expect the book. Like, we had a blast writing it. And Levitt is an economist, I'm a writer. We started to spend some time together, and he did in economics what I like to do as a writer, which is find whatever stories, often odd or surprising, and just go deep on them. But the beauty of this is I'm a writer. We look for stories. But Levitt, as an economist, had data. So he had data on sumo wrestlers and real estate agents and what people name their babies and all these different things. And so what we did is we just told stories like you do in a regular book, but with a lot of data. And we showed our homework. We tried to really explain to the listener why this thing that we say that is true, why you should believe it. And it's really hard for me to understand why it succeeded the way it did, other than there were a lot of young people like you in college trying to figure out, like, I know when the authority figures tell me the way the world works, they're lying. I know that. And institutions, you know, they kind of tell you one story, but it doesn't work out that way. So we were just trying to blow the lid off that.

Ryan Holiday (41:53)

With data.

Trevor Noah (41:54)

For sure. Now that you mentioned it, it did feel very countercultural at the time when, you know. And now 20 years later, you guys are the institutions now.

Jon Stewart (42:00)

I guess so.

Trevor Noah (42:00)

You guys are the old guys, you know, but no, but I mean that when I said it changed the way I look at the world, it did, because it kind of made me think about. It was written. It was very easy to read, first of all. So it was kind of like academics, but made dumber.

Jon Stewart (42:14)

Yeah, I was the. My partner is an academic, so you know what part I am of that.

Trevor Noah (42:20)

No, you made it accessible. And regardless of, you know, whatever was. The facts involved. But it just made me think of a. It was a different way to look at the world, that there's these. You could take two separate situations and there could be hidden causation.

Jon Stewart (42:37)

That's right.

Trevor Noah (42:37)

Between them.

Jon Lovett (42:37)

That's right.

Trevor Noah (42:38)

So, you know, for people, again, for the uneducated people on social media while watching this. On YouTube, on the toilet while taking a shit. You know, so, for example, if you haven't read the book, there's a story in here about connecting.

Jon Stewart (42:51)

Can I just say I'm glad that they're taking a shit on the toilet? I mean, that's a win. You gotta.

Trevor Noah (42:59)

I guess.

Malcolm Gladwell (43:01)

You guess?

Trevor Noah (43:02)

I mean, I somewhat consider it the bare minimum, but I guess in 2026, we take that as a win. These days, if you're taking a shot on the toilet, congratulations, you made it to the toilet. And there's connections here between, you know, abortion and crime rates and stuff like that. You know, 20 years later, I reread this. I think there's a second edition. You added a foreword. Yeah, but really, it hasn't changed that much. It didn't. I mean, do the studies and the connections still hold up?

Jon Stewart (43:29)

Yeah, I mean, I know. Thanks to the Internet, which we all love in many different ways.

Trevor Noah (43:34)

The Internet. I hate you guys. Legacy media for life.

Jon Stewart (43:47)

So it is true that if you do good nonfiction work. So I'm a journalist by training, worked at the New York Times, et cetera. There are a lot of things that are great about real journalism, including the fact that rather than asking one person what's going on, you ask a lot, you fact check it, et cetera, et cetera. That said, if you write a book which is full of what. What we argue is all true stuff backed up by Data, There will be a million people who say, well, in my experience, that's not true. And then it starts a kind of pissing war there. The good news is that the book, which we kind of went back and reexamined a bunch of times, and Levitt and his co author on the abortion crime study that you mentioned, actually went back and did a whole new study with 20 years more worth of data. And yeah, the book is legit. I was very happy.

Trevor Noah (44:33)

Oh, that's good to know.

Jon Stewart (44:34)

It was great to know.

Trevor Noah (44:36)

If you were to rewrite this book in 2026.

Jon Stewart (44:40)

Oh, not possible. Oh, why not possible? Like, when I read it now, like, you know, I hear the voices of the people that we were then. And when you're 20 years younger, you're a different person. You're a little bit. I think we're a little bit more like callow. And also the environment was different. You could just say stuff. Now you're in an environment where because of the amplification of social. No matter what you say, there will be an avalanche coming at you. And unless you're really good at tuning it out, which I encourage everyone to become really good at. Cause that's important, then you're gonna doubt yourself and you're gonna dial it down. You're gonna make boring stuff. And we did not want to be boring.

Trevor Noah (45:21)

Okay. I don't know if you watch this show. We talk about a ton of shit every day. And I say this. If you're truly. No bravado. Objectively, we truly do not give a on this show. Like, if you watch that. So I kind of disagree on this. We can't say anything now.

Jon Stewart (45:43)

Okay, I'm gonna leave it.

Trevor Noah (45:44)

No, no, no, please don't leave me. But I guess what I was trying to not so much that you are younger and more spry back then. I just mean, like, I was so

Jon Stewart (45:52)

spry, let me tell you.

Trevor Noah (45:54)

But what I meant more was, like, if you were to write this book now, what case studies might you put in there? That's kind of what I meant. I would.

Jon Stewart (46:02)

I mean, the ones I've been thinking about are not necessarily as fun. Like, there were a lot of fun ones. Sumo wrestling. I mentioned so on. Like, I would write a lot about AI now, I think just to sell the book.

Trevor Noah (46:13)

Could you quickly explain the connection between sumo wrestling and.

Jon Stewart (46:15)

Oh, yeah. So it turns out that sumo wrestlers will collude with each other. Even sumo wrestlers from opposite teams or stables, because they will help each other kind of maintain their rank in the big Rankings that determine basically whether you eat or not. So we looked at collusion in sumo wrestlers. We looked at cheating teachers, which I think probably still happens a little bit. Can I tell you what was so interesting about that? We looked at. Turned out that teachers, when the standards were raised for children, the no Child Left behind standards, where schools would be punished if a certain number of children would fail, it turned out there were some teachers that would actually cheat on behalf of their students. They would actually take their standardized tests, erase the wrong answers, and write in the right ones, which is terrible and sad. Sad face. But what was particularly interesting was that the teachers who cheated were the bad teachers. In other words, it was the bad teachers who had to cheat on behalf of their students because the teachers hadn't done a good job teaching them. So now I think we would write about AI what I love.

Trevor Noah (47:16)

Sorry, before you get to 2026, I

Jon Stewart (47:17)

don't even have to get to.

Trevor Noah (47:18)

No, no. I do want to hear what you hear about. But one thing I love about the whole tone of these books is that you kind of present all this stuff as you just did, kind of objectively, without judgment. Here's the connections where you like it or not, without providing any solutions whatsoever. And I love it.

Interviewer (47:31)

I love it.

Trevor Noah (47:32)

That's what it's about. That's how I am. All right. You're like, I would argue Socrates, just throwing these mediocrity in the air and going, you know, but I mean, please answer. But I do want to hear about 2026, though.

Jon Stewart (47:46)

I don't care about 2026.

Stephen Dubner (47:48)

I care.

Jon Stewart (47:49)

But what I would say is that you're right, that we probably don't provide a lot of solutions. But I really appreciate and like that you said without judgment. Because I feel that whether you're in entertainment journalism, running a country, whatever, I think the easiest trap to fall into is bringing your. What you think, your values, which you think are the only values to every argument, whether it's about health care, whether it's about housing and so on. And that's just prima facie, a stupid way to operate because not everybody believes like you. So we were trying to just lay out, like, this is the way the world works using these case studies or stories. And you, smart person who reads a book now, you go in the world and do something with it without us telling you what to do. Sure.

Trevor Noah (48:34)

No. And I think there is value there. There is value there without. So I, you know, I actually appreciate the tone you guys took with it. And I guess that's why I would love to HEAR what your 2026 kind of insights would be so that we could go into the world and act like smart asses like you guys and just drop some factoids on this.

Jon Stewart (48:53)

Let me think. Okay. If you happen to be seeking asylum and you get before a judge, an asylum judge, make sure you don't have the slot right before lunch. Okay? Bad, bad fortune for you. So if you happen to be like the last one before lunch, you should do something like vomit to clear the courtroom so the judge comes back after he or she has eaten.

Trevor Noah (49:15)

Who says you don't provide solutions? This is what I'm talking about. Yeah.

Ryan Holiday (49:21)

Or

Jon Stewart (49:24)

I'll tell you what I'd be writing about now.

Stephen Dubner (49:26)

Oh, sorry.

Trevor Noah (49:26)

Could you just explain a little bit why that's a bad cause?

Jon Stewart (49:29)

Hungry people make bad decisions. It's no joke. And if you look at, like, sports

Trevor Noah (49:33)

references, what if my case is weak? I need the judge to make a bad decision to get me into the country.

Jon Stewart (49:38)

Oh, to get you into the oh. That's a different story. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So I hadn't gone that far with that logic. I'll tell you. How do you feel about artificial insemination? Is that a topic that interests you?

Trevor Noah (49:49)

It interests me a lot, I would have to say.

Stephen Colbert (49:52)

Yeah,

Trevor Noah (49:55)

I like watching that a lot.

Jon Stewart (49:58)

So one thing I've learned recently is that there are two animals that are very popular in America, one of which

Trevor Noah (50:04)

is conceived Republicans and Democrats,

Stephen Colbert (50:08)

one of

Jon Stewart (50:08)

which is conceived almost always by artificial insemination, the other never. And I found this interesting. The one that always is turkeys. And the reason is that we like to eat breast meat from turkey in America with mayonnaise and mustard and so on. And so they bred the turkeys to have such big breasts that they physically cannot get close enough to procreate anymore. Therefore, all turkeys you eat are the product of artificial insemination. But on the other hand, on the other hand, thoroughbred racehorses, they're not allowed to be bred by artificial insemination. And the reason is that Kentucky has this real stranglehold, a monopoly on the thoroughbred breeding industry. And they know that if they were to allow artificial insemination, then no longer does everybody have to bring their horses to Kentucky to be bred by a real horse with a real, you know.

Trevor Noah (51:00)

Yeah.

Malcolm Gladwell (51:01)

Thing.

Trevor Noah (51:02)

Okay, but how do they police that?

Jon Stewart (51:06)

There is a horse penis police force

Trevor Noah (51:10)

just blocking the artificial insemination.

Jon Stewart (51:13)

Yeah, I guess it's in the registry. You have to have the mother and father need to be physically present at the same time. Aren't you glad now, you know?

Trevor Noah (51:21)

No, I. Hey, but this, honestly, being 20 years old and reading all this, well, actually very eye opening. So I really appreciate it. And like, what else? I mean, any other lessons you take from this that I guess, you know, how do we get people to, I don't know, just read more?

Jon Stewart (51:40)

Oh, you know, here's my thing. First of all, people are reading more books now than they were five and 10 years ago, which is really interesting.

Trevor Noah (51:47)

Oh, that's good.

Jon Stewart (51:48)

It's very interesting. It's a surprise because the trend was not going there, I will tell you. I mean, this is apropos of nothing other than that I'm a fan of this guy. He's a guy named James Daunt, who's an English bookstore owner. He opened a store called Daunt in London years ago. He was so good at running these small, great bookstores that the Barnes and Noble of England hired him to run their stores. Waterson's. And now the Barnes and Noble of America, which is called Barnes and Noble, hired him to also run Barnes and Noble here. So this one guy has really changed the way books are being sold in America. And I think the Amazon model, everybody liked it because it's easy, but it wasn't really about loving books. And so I think books are coming back with a force. I understand that that one is available in finer bookstores.

Trevor Noah (52:34)

That's nice, Stephen. Thanks. Thanks for writing the book. Thanks for changing the way I look at the world. It was really insightful as a young person in college. I really appreciate it. Freakonomics 20th Anniversary Edition is available now. Be sure to check out the Freakonomics radio podcast. Stephen Dutton, everybody. Explore more shows from the Daily show

Interviewer (52:55)

podcast universe by searching the Daily Show.

Jon Stewart (52:57)

Wherever you get your podcasts, watch the

Interviewer (53:00)

Daily show weeknights at 1110 Central on Comedy Central and stream full episodes anytime on Paramount.

Jon Stewart (53:09)

This has been a Comedy Central podcast.