TDS Time Machine | Jon's 2024 Interviews

Summary

Summary of "The Daily Show: Ears Edition" Episode: TDS Time Machine | Jon's 2024 Interviews

Release Date: January 2, 2025

In this episode of "The Daily Show: Ears Edition," hosted by Desi Lydic, listeners are treated to a series of in-depth interviews with prominent figures, including Lina Khan, Chair of the Federal Trade Commission (FTC), acclaimed author Salman Rushdie, and sports journalist Monica McNutt. The episode delves into critical discussions on antitrust laws, the impact of monopolistic practices on consumers, the evolution of fundamentalism in society, and the dynamics of the Women's National Basketball Association (WNBA).

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1. Lina Khan Discusses Antitrust Enforcement and Monopolistic Practices

Timestamp: 00:00 – 15:37

Overview: Lina Khan, the Chair of the FTC, engages in a comprehensive dialogue about the agency's role in combating monopolistic behaviors and ensuring market fairness. The conversation highlights the FTC's approach to enforcing antitrust laws, challenges faced when dealing with large corporations like Amazon and Facebook, and the evolving landscape of technology and artificial intelligence (AI) in relation to market competition.

Key Points:

• FTC's Mission: Khan emphasizes the FTC's commitment to protecting consumers from coercive and deceptive business practices. “We want to make sure that the American public is not getting bullied or coerced in the marketplace or tricked.”

• Monopolistic Practices: Discusses the FTC's lawsuits against Amazon, alleging that the company maintains its monopoly through illegal practices, such as overcrowding search results with irrelevant ads and imposing exorbitant fees on small businesses. “Amazon is now able to get away with harming its customers.”

• Legal Challenges: Khan outlines the resource disparities between the FTC and large corporations, noting that while the FTC has approximately 1,200 employees, companies like Amazon can deploy a significantly larger legal team. “We're pretty outgunned. But not outmatched.”

• AI and Market Influence: Addresses concerns about AI algorithms potentially facilitating price-fixing among competitors without direct collusion. “One trend that we're especially concerned about is the way that algorithms may be facilitating price fixing” ([10:56]).

• Historical Context: Reflects on the evolution of antitrust laws since the 1890 Sherman Act, highlighting the need for these laws to adapt to contemporary technological advancements. “We need to make sure that these technologies are proceeding on a trajectory that benefit Americans.”

Notable Quotes:

• Lina Khan: “Monopolies harm Americans in a whole bunch of ways. You're absolutely right that it's not just higher prices. Yes, it can be lower wages. It can be suppliers getting muscled out of the market, or seeing their own payments drop” ([13:00]).

• Lina Khan: “What's new is the volume and the heat. And so what do we do about taking down the volume and taking down the heat? That's the question” ([37:34]).

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2. Salman Rushdie Reflects on Trauma and Freedom of Expression

Timestamp: 15:37 – 39:55

Overview: In a poignant segment, acclaimed author Salman Rushdie shares insights from his latest book, "Knife," which chronicles his traumatic experience following the infamous fatwa against him. The discussion delves into themes of artistic expression, fundamentalism, and the personal impact of living under threat.

Key Points:

• Experience of Trauma: Rushdie describes revisiting the site of his traumatic assault and the emotional journey that followed. “He was in there, I'm out here. That feels good” ([23:57]).

• Fundamentalism's Evolution: Explores how fundamentalism has transformed in the digital age, influenced by algorithms and social media, leading to a broader societal impact beyond religious contexts. “Everybody's an expert. Everybody's got an opinion and a hostility and hostility” ([35:00]).

• Artistic Freedom: Emphasizes the importance of free expression and the role of writers in fighting against censorship and societal pressures. “There is a fight about free expression in America, too, at the moment. And I feel like I'm in that fight” ([34:24]).

• Personal Resilience: Discusses overcoming fear and PTSD, highlighting his return to writing and public life after enduring threats. “I'm pretty much back to myself at this point” ([39:04]).

• Interpersonal Relations: Reflects on the support of his wife and collaborators in rebuilding his life and career. “Without her, I wouldn't be here in good shape” ([22:39]).

Notable Quotes:

• Salman Rushdie: “I make him up, you make him up, but you don't make him defenseless” ([25:12]).

• Salman Rushdie: “I just think people have to draw. Stop having such thin skins” ([36:39]).

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3. Monica McNutt Advocates for WNBA Representation and Coverage

Timestamp: 39:55 – 53:15

Overview: Sports journalist Monica McNutt addresses the challenges and triumphs within the WNBA, particularly focusing on the league's growing popularity, the spotlight on standout players like Caitlin Clark, and the broader implications of media coverage on women's sports. The segment underscores the importance of recognizing the contributions of female athletes beyond marquee names.

Key Points:

• Viral Sports Moment: McNutt recounts a contentious discussion surrounding a foul in a WNBA game, highlighting media narratives that disproportionately focus on individual stars rather than the league's collective efforts. “It is unfair to the women that have been there building this league to this moment” ([40:33]).

• League Consolidation: Emphasizes the historical and ongoing consolidation within sports leagues and its impact on competition and player representation. “There are all these isms that have made the WNBA beautiful for 28 years” ([45:29]).

• Economic Realities: Discusses the financial struggles of WNBA players, many of whom supplement their income by playing overseas due to the league's modest salaries. “[The WNBA] is disrespectful and unfair to the women that have gotten this league to this point” ([50:43]).

• Future of WNBA: Expresses optimism about the league's growth and the increasing visibility of female athletes, while advocating for broader recognition and support. “I am thrilled about the WNBA's future” ([51:59]).

• Cultural Impact: Highlights how the WNBA serves as a platform for addressing intersectional identities and societal issues, enhancing the league's cultural significance beyond sports. “These are all things that sit at intersectional identities that we just opened up your show talking about valuing these things” ([44:57]).

Notable Quotes:

• Monica McNutt: “Many of these women supplement their income in the league that they play out of love to play at home with their teammates in front of their families” ([50:38]).

• Monica McNutt: “This class and Clark is all a part of it changing” ([50:43]).

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Conclusion: This episode of "The Daily Show: Ears Edition" provides listeners with a multifaceted exploration of contemporary issues affecting both the economic landscape and cultural spheres. From Lina Khan's critical insights into antitrust enforcement and the challenges posed by monopolistic giants, to Salman Rushdie's personal narrative on freedom of expression and trauma, and Monica McNutt's passionate advocacy for the WNBA, the episode encapsulates a broad spectrum of discussions that resonate with current societal dynamics.

Transcript

[Lina Khan]

Hey everyone, Desi Lydic here. The Daily show is on break for the holidays, but in the meantime, we put together some special highlights for you. We'll be back in the New Year on January 7th with all new episodes.

[Desi Lydic]

Lovely to see you. You run the Federal Trade Commission.

[Lina Khan]

That's right.

[Desi Lydic]

The whole shebang. And you are in charge of. It's protecting Americans from monopolistic company practices, but also dealing with pricing and things like that. Protecting consumers.

[Lina Khan]

That's right. I mean, the short of it is we want to make sure that the American public is not getting bullied or coerced in the marketplace or tricked. And so we enforce the nation's antitrust and consumer protection laws.

[Desi Lydic]

And how is. Whoa, please. Now I just want to make very clear, very. You were not bullied or tricked into applaud. Want to be accused of monopolistic. How much pressure do these companies exert on the Federal Trade Commission? In other words, how much do they fight whatever regulation you're trying to put into place to keep them from becoming monopolies or from these types of business practices?

[Lina Khan]

Well, look, monopolies are not fans of enforcing the anti monopoly laws. And so that type of pushback is baked in. But we have a fantastic team. We're a small agency, but we're mighty and we play to our strengths. Being entrepreneurial, being strategic and getting real wins for the American people.

[Desi Lydic]

What are the companies? So these are separate things, monopolies. The way I always viewed it was, oh, that's only one company. But don't we have oligopolies in this country? Aren't there industries? Consolidation has made it. For instance, the entertainment industry is controlled by like six companies. Companies. Is that considered not a monopoly, but. But a problem?

[Lina Khan]

Yeah, look, we've really focused on how are companies behaving. Are they behaving in ways that suggest they can harm their customers, harm their suppliers, harm their workers and get away with it? And that type of too big to care type approach is really what ends up signaling that a company has monopoly power because they can start mistreating you, but they know you're stuck.

[Desi Lydic]

And what would be the metrics of that? Like how would you judge that? Because I know you've sued Amazon.

[Lina Khan]

That's right.

[Desi Lydic]

And that's for those practices.

[Lina Khan]

So our lawsuit does allege that Amazon is a monopoly, that they've maintained that monopoly through illegal practices. And look, there are a variety of ways that you can show a company is a monopoly and has monopoly power. One is you can try to figure out what's the exact boundary of the market. What's the market share? But again, the most direct way is to look at how is the company behaving. And as we lay out in our complaint, Amazon is now able to get away with harming its customers. So just to give you a few examples, yes, over the last few years, they've littered their search results page with junk ads, ads that internally executives realize are irrelevant and unhelpful to consumers. But they can just do it, and it milks them billions of dollars in money. They've also been steadily hiking the fees that small businesses have to pay to sell through Amazon. And so now some small businesses have to pay one out of every two dollars to Amazon. It's basically a 50% monopoly tax.

[Desi Lydic]

Wow.

[Lina Khan]

And so those are just some of the behaviors that we point to to note that this company has monopoly power.

[Desi Lydic]

Is there anything in the company's leader that also suggests that, like, for instance, if you were to go from being like, sort of a nerdy dude who sold books out of a garage into, let's say, a jacked Lex Luthor type, does that also suggest either monopolistic practices or some type of injections?

[Lina Khan]

You know, we haven't tried to make those arguments in court, but it would be interesting to see how a judge would respond.

[Desi Lydic]

I think quite favorably. How many lawyers do you like, for instance? So what are you up against? So you've got government lawyers. I'm assuming you've got a pretty good cadre of them. But, like, let's say you're going after Amazon. How many lawyers do they have?

[Lina Khan]

I mean, you know, if they have Monopoly money, they can buy as many lawyers as they want. I mean, the FTC is around 1200 employees. But when we're going up against some of the monopolistic companies, they can outmatch us, outgun us sometimes 1 to 10. Just if you're looking at lawyers, if you're adding paralegals and support, if you're.

[Desi Lydic]

Just looking at lawyers, they outnumber you 10 to 1.

[Lina Khan]

Sometimes they can, yeah. I mean, we have lawsuits against a whole bunch of big companies. And just in terms of sheer resources that they can pour into the litigation, we're pretty outgunned. But not outmatched. Right. And this is where it comes to playing to your strengths, being entrepreneurial.

[Desi Lydic]

So this isn't about just getting a fine. This isn't about going after Amazon and saying so, because this is what the SEC does. The sec, I think, is overmatched as a government agency. And you don't have to comment on that, but just nod your head. Utterly overmatched. So they go after groups and then they can't really prove it in court. So then they're like, how about this? You give us a cut of your profit and we'll all be done here. How do you handle that with Amazon? It's not just about a fine.

[Lina Khan]

That's right. I think we've seen, look, over the last couple of decades we've seen how businesses can treat fines just as a cost of doing business.

[Desi Lydic]

Right.

[Lina Khan]

And we need to make sure that we're actually deterring illegal behavior. And so that can mean naming individual executives. We in our, some of our lawsuits.

[Desi Lydic]

Oh snap. You just did not go there. I like that. So have you had success with this?

[Lina Khan]

We have had success with this. I mean, we had a lawsuit against Martin Shkreli a couple of years ago.

[Desi Lydic]

Suddenly it turned into a pro wrestling match here. What's going on? And he went to jail.

[Lina Khan]

He went to jail.

[Desi Lydic]

Do you have to refer things to the DOJ or do you have an enforcement arm?

[Lina Khan]

So you're right, we don't have criminal authority. But the remedy we were able to get against Martin Shkreli was to effectively ban him from doing business in the pharmaceutical industry.

[Desi Lydic]

Right. Now I imagine that the practice that he did in the pharmaceutical industry, which was taking a life saving drug and like jacking the price up by I don't know how many thousands of percent, I mean, he did something crazy. Right. How do you keep that as a normal practice in the pharmaceutical industry? I mean, are they colluding as a group to keep prices high? Why are we having so much trouble with them and prescription drug prices?

[Lina Khan]

I mean, look, there are a whole set of reasons why for too many Americans, drugs are unaffordable.

[Desi Lydic]

Right.

[Lina Khan]

I mean, I hear weekly monthly about American families who are having to ration life saving drugs.

[Desi Lydic]

Absolutely. And shortages of those drugs.

[Lina Khan]

Shortages of those drugs. And there can be all sorts of tricks and monopolistic behavior that is leading to that. Just to give you one example, inhalers, They've been around for decades, sure. But they still cost hundreds of dollars. So our staff took a close look and we realized that some of the patents that had been listed for these inhalers were improper. They were bogus. And so we sent hundreds of warning letters around these patents. And in the last few weeks we've seen companies delist these patents and three out of the four major manufacturers have now said within a couple of months they're going to cap how much Americans Pay to just $35.

[Desi Lydic]

So is it is their game like so you being entrepreneurial is their game. We're going to see how far we can push this and get away with it and do these different things in the hopes that we don't run up against an entrepreneurial or crafty ftc. Are they waiting you out?

[Lina Khan]

Look, it's possible, but that's why you need to think about tactics that are going to be around deterrence. And so one big area of focus for us is understanding what is the root cause of these problems. Right, let's understand who is the mafia boss here rather than just going after the foot soldiers.

[Desi Lydic]

Right. And I think you'd probably, there's probably a biblical sin in there that's probably the root cause of the whole thing. But I want to talk about the tech companies because they are the new oligarchs, it would seem. They are the companies that, and you see this especially in Europe where they are fined considerable amounts of money for monopolistic practices or Apple just had to pay an enormous fine. Microsoft has always been, you know, found guilty of certain monopolistic practices when it comes along. How do you handle enforcement for these new incredibly consolidated and enormous oligarchies?

[Lina Khan]

So we have a lawsuit against Amazon, right. We have another one against Facebook. We've.

[Desi Lydic]

What is the one against Facebook?

[Lina Khan]

So that one was filed before I arrived at the agency. But basically it alleges that Facebook, when it was watching the transition from desktop to mobile, it realized it really couldn't survive in mobile. And so it ended up and buying out Instagram and WhatsApp. And the lawsuit alleges that those acquisitions were anti competitive, that they violated the antitrust laws.

[Desi Lydic]

Right.

[Lina Khan]

That instead of competing organically, Facebook instead bought its way to maintaining its monopoly.

[Desi Lydic]

Now why, why is that considered malabol? Wouldn't they say, well that's a sign of our success. We're so successful we have extra money and with that extra money we make bets on certain companies and we turn those into successes.

[Lina Khan]

So look, one key tenet of the anti monopoly laws is that you can't go out and buy one of your biggest competitors. The whole.

[Desi Lydic]

Oh, you're not allowed to do that.

[Lina Khan]

You're not allowed to do that.

[Desi Lydic]

In fact, can I tell you something crazy? So I had put in an offer for last week. Tonight I had come out, now it wasn't. And I'm going to tell you something. And because it's Oliver, I offered to him in doubloons. Is that what British people use? Obviously didn't take it. But. But you have to make the decision then of whether or not they are cornering the market. They used to call cornering the market, but couldn't you say, like Apple, Microsoft, they are kind of working together to corner markets? No.

[Lina Khan]

So, look, we're investigating to understand whether some of the investments and partnerships that they're entering into right now in the AI space may in fact be giving them undue influence or giving them special privileges. If we get any hint that there is actual collusion happening in the marketplace, we take that extraordinarily seriously and won't hesitate to take action. One trend that we're especially concerned about is the way that algorithms may be facilitating price fixing. And so if you have a whole bunch of competitors in a market, be it hotels, be it casinos, and they all decide they're going to outsource their pricing decision to the same algorithm, they may in effect be fixing their prices, even if they're not, you know, getting in the back room and making secret deals.

[Desi Lydic]

If that would be like if a hotel says, oh, you can get us on Expedia, or you can get us on Kayak, or you can get us on. But all those companies are using the same algorithm. Would that mean that it flattens those prices and you are not getting the competitive advantage that you might get from those 10 to 15 apps that are searching for the cheapest hotel rooms? Is that the idea?

[Lina Khan]

That's right. You may collectively see inflated prices because all of these companies are using the same algorithm. They're inputting the same data, and that algorithm is, in effect, allowing them to collectively raise their prices. So Americans are having to pay more.

[Desi Lydic]

And it's not just paying more. I mean, you could look at a company like Walmart where you would say, okay, they came into areas and they dominated all the competition. They didn't buy up the mom and pop shops, but because they had access to cheap labor and overseas goods and those types of things, they could undersell them and put them all out of business. And even at that moment, they might not raise their prices. But boy could they. And boy could they exert their influence on supply chains. And boy, could they depress wages and make sure that people, even if they're working long hours, still have to have social assistance. Is that something that you could go after?

[Lina Khan]

Look, monopolies harm Americans in a whole bunch of ways. You're absolutely right that it's not just higher prices. Yes, it can be lower wages. It can be suppliers getting muscled out of the market, or seeing Their own payments drop. It can also be shortages. I mean, we've seen over the last few years baby formula, baby formula, IV bags, Adderall, Adderall, basic forms.

[Desi Lydic]

I see the audience has no use for baby formula, but has an interesting predilection. What do you do in that instance?

[Lina Khan]

So look, we want to understand, are there dominant players here that are using their muscle to coerce in ways that's contributing to shortages? We've also seen historically when you concentrate production, that concentrates risk. And so a single disaster, a single contamination, a single shock can lead the entire supply to be wiped out. I mean, the short of it is don't put all your eggs in one.

[Desi Lydic]

Basket and then you guys are the ones that have to separate the eggs. It's curious to me that the government wouldn't have other methods of working with these corporations to ask them to curb their excesses in exchange for what they get, which is the stability of the American system.

[Lina Khan]

So look, we have a whole bunch of policies and laws in place that are actually designed to ensure our markets are more competitive and not as subject to these.

[Desi Lydic]

Without killing innovation.

[Lina Khan]

Exactly right.

[Desi Lydic]

That's the balance.

[Lina Khan]

But 40 years ago under President Reagan, we've radically veered off course and undertook a much more hands off approach. And now we're living with the consequences of those.

[Desi Lydic]

Is industry more consolidated today? I mean, my gut would tell me it is more consolidated. You have larger companies that swallow up in the pursuit of growth, swallow up and consolidate. It feels that way to me. Do you have the metrics that suggest that that's actually the case?

[Lina Khan]

On the whole, yes. I mean, you always want to do a market by market analysis. But if you look at airlines, if you look at telecom, if you look at meat packers, if you look at huge parts of our economy across the board, you've seen huge waves of mergers, less competitive. So you go from dozens of companies just to a very small number. And again, that hurts Americans and American communities in all sorts of ways and even leads to, for example, planes falling apart in the sky.

[Desi Lydic]

Wait, what? I always thought that was just. I always thought that was all just dei. Are you telling me this gets us to our final point? So now they're saying this new algorithm, this new kind of machine learning model called AI, that's going to transform every aspect of American life and the American economies, it's already being consolidated. Apple has bought 30 AI models. Microsoft is private. Google has bought. They all buy AI startups and put them behind their paywall. And they're already having an Arms race to see who will be either the monopoly or this will be an oligopoly. I got to tell you, I wanted to have you on a podcast and Apple asked us not to do it. They literally said, please don't talk to her. Having nothing to do with what you do for a living. I think they just, I didn't think they cared for you is what happened. They, they wouldn't, they didn't, they wouldn't let us do even that dumb thing we just did in the first act on AI. Like what is that sensitivity? Why are they so afraid to, to even have these conversations out in the public sphere?

[Lina Khan]

I think it just shows one of the dangers of what happens when you concentrate so much power and so much decision making in a small number of companies. I mean, going back all the way to the founding, there was a recognition that in the same way that you need the Constitution to create checks and balances in our political sphere, you also needed the antitrust and anti monopoly laws to safeguard against concentration of economic power because you don't want an autocrat of trade in the same way that you don't want a monarch.

[Desi Lydic]

But then it took them. I mean, it wasn't until the Sherman act in what, 1890 something. I mean, when did they, when did they first decide, was it the beginning of industrialization when they finally decided like, oh, we should probably put a halt to this?

[Lina Khan]

That's right. You initially had some state level laws, but the first federal antitrust law was the 1890 Sherman Act. And it was absolutely a response to the Industrial revolution and a lot of the power that that had concentrated.

[Desi Lydic]

Can we just hold on for one second? Wyatt, can you take the camera real quick? I want to take a single. Real quick if I can. I don't know which one. Let me take this one. I nailed that Sherman thing, didn't I? Come on. Came out of nowhere. I think I might have learned that in like 9th grade. Stuck. Has that been updated since 1890?

[Lina Khan]

So we had some follow on laws in 1914, another follow on in the 1950s, and then since then it's been a bit more sparse. So for the most part our lawsuits are still based on those laws. Going back a century.

[Desi Lydic]

What would you posit, what would you put forth to control this new AI technology that is looming? And I'm not talking about censorship, I'm not talking about government deciding you can't say that or you can't print that. I'm talking about in terms of business practices, these few companies controlling the entire mechanism.

[Lina Khan]

Look the first thing we need to do is be clear eyed that there's no AI exemption from the laws on the books. We see sometimes businesses try to dazzle enforcers by saying, oh, these technologies are so new, they're so different. Just take a hands off approach. And that's basically what ended up happening with Web 2.0, and now we're reeling from the consequences. And so we need to make sure all of these.

[Desi Lydic]

What was the Web 2.0 is, you.

[Lina Khan]

Know, the rise of social media, you know, in the early 2000s, the initial set of companies that ended up innovating but ultimately becoming monopolistic, ultimately adopting business models that are premised on endlessly surveilling.

[Desi Lydic]

People and so, and hoovering up data and creating algorithms that are clearly harmful not just to children, but to political discourse. And there's, it's pretty wild how they're able to do that. And they, every now and again they get called in front of Congress and Mark Zuckerberg, you know, Doe eyed goes like, like and subscribe, you know.

[Salman Rushdie]

But.

[Desi Lydic]

It'S, Are you, are you optimistic that, that we will be able to catch up to this in time before something truly catastrophic happens through AI?

[Lina Khan]

Well, look, there's no inevitable outcome here, right? We are the decision makers and so we need to use the policy tools and levers that we have to make sure that these technologies are proceeding on a trajectory that benefit Americans and we're not subjected to all of the risks and harms.

[Desi Lydic]

Right. Boy, would you stay forever? Because it's incredibly impressive what you're doing. Thank you so much. FTC chair Lina Khan. First question, obviously, how, how are you? This was obviously a traumatic experience. How are you feeling?

[Salman Rushdie]

I'm okay. You know, I mean, surprisingly, yes. But sometimes there are good surprises. This was one. I'm pretty much recovered, I have to say.

[Desi Lydic]

And I know this, it sounds peculiar to say this because of the traumatic experience that you endured. I love this book. It's, it's, it's a beautiful work of introspection. I feel like I know now how your mind works. You know, I read other of your books, but you really do a wonderful job of taking us through how you think.

[Salman Rushdie]

Yeah, it's weird how I think. I mean, I have this kind of free associating mind which goes from the moon to a movie, to a book, to a piece of mythology, to a joke.

[Desi Lydic]

I had to read this book with another book next to me to get just some of the references. It's. But it allows you. Sometimes you'll read an Author's memoir. And there's a certain self consciousness to it, but maybe because this is about a traumatic incident, I feel like your defenses were down. And it was very revelatory.

[Salman Rushdie]

Yeah. I mean, there's a subject.

[Desi Lydic]

Right.

[Salman Rushdie]

I mean, it's. What I felt is that it's. It starts off there's a love story which turns into a murder story which turns back into a love story.

[Desi Lydic]

Yes. The love story, by the way, is with his wonderful wife Eliza, who is really the hero maybe of the book.

[Salman Rushdie]

Yeah. No, I mean, she did a huge amount and I wouldn't be here in good shape without her. And plus, she's an amazing writer.

[Desi Lydic]

Right.

[Salman Rushdie]

There's that too. I say with a certain amount of gritted teeth.

[Desi Lydic]

Yes. Is there competition in writerly families?

[Salman Rushdie]

Not really. Actually, one of the nice things about this is there isn't. And we were enormously supportive of each other's work.

[Desi Lydic]

I thought a really interesting part of the book is. Spoiler alert at the end. When you go back to Chautauqua. Chautauqua is the famed community in upstate New York where they bring in speakers and where this unfortunate event happened. Yeah. And you go back to revisit the scene of it, but also the jail where they are holding this person that. That attacked you.

[Salman Rushdie]

Yeah. It was a last minute decision. We were actually on the plane flying up to. Because I had this desire to go and revisit the scene of the crime and show myself that I was standing up where I fell down.

[Desi Lydic]

Right.

[Salman Rushdie]

You know, sort of important for me. But then the flight up there, I thought, chautauqua is a really small town. And. And if he's in the county jail, how far is that from the institution? And it turned out it was like five minutes drive. So I thought, well, let's go to the jail.

[Desi Lydic]

It blows my. But you didn't have a desire necessarily to see this individual?

[Salman Rushdie]

No, I just wanted to see the jail.

[Desi Lydic]

But I just.

[Salman Rushdie]

You get there, it's a. It's a really boring jail. It's a little cell block and a wall with some barbed wire. But I thought, you know, he's in there, I'm out here. That feels good.

[Desi Lydic]

You win.

[Salman Rushdie]

And what happened is a weird thing happened. My feet started dancing.

[Desi Lydic]

You were dancing?

[Salman Rushdie]

No, my feet were dancing.

[Desi Lydic]

What does that look like? It's just shimmying. But the body stayed.

[Salman Rushdie]

Well. Eliza, my wife said, stop doing that.

[Desi Lydic]

I can imagine this gentleman just glancing out the window for no apparent reason going, is that the guy? Like, yeah.

[Salman Rushdie]

And he's dancing at the car park.

[Desi Lydic]

You know, you talk a lot about your thoughts about this gentleman and whether you wanted to confront him. There's actually a really wonderful section of it, almost like a Socratic litigation that you do in four parts.

[Salman Rushdie]

Yeah, I make him up, you make.

[Desi Lydic]

Him up, but you don't make him defenseless. No, the litigation that you and the dialogue that you have with him is challenging.

[Salman Rushdie]

Yeah, well, I thought you. You know, you've got to give the enemy an even break. If you're going to have a serious conversation, then it's. It can't just be me yelling at him, telling him what a bad person he is, which I think.

[Desi Lydic]

Yes, but he wasn't. It makes you wonder about, you know, you spent since 1989. This. This fatwa is put upon you, and it's these fundamentalists, and these are religious extremists who have decided they're going to punish you for whatever their reasoning was. You write, though, that this gentleman is sort of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of that.

[Salman Rushdie]

He was 24. He wasn't even born when this thing happened. And he, by his own account, had read nothing I'd written, and yet he was willing to commit murder. I mean, that's stupid.

[Desi Lydic]

Yes, but it's. I wonder if you think of it, does it strike you as a change in fundamentalism? You know, you say he was radicalized by Iman YouTube, that he watched YouTube videos. And do you think this attack had more to do with, like, John Lennon's attack or with a religious attack?

[Salman Rushdie]

No, I think it's. I think in some ways, it's a very American attack.

[Desi Lydic]

Right.

[Salman Rushdie]

He spent four years in a basement playing video games and watching videos, and it kind of messed with his head. And also, you know, I mean, he's born and bred in New Jersey.

[Desi Lydic]

Slow down. I think I know where this is going.

[Salman Rushdie]

Well, then, you know, you're ahead of me. But, you know, we live in an America where people kill each other every five minutes.

[Desi Lydic]

Right.

[Salman Rushdie]

You know, and I think maybe in his New Jersey brain.

[Desi Lydic]

Yes. That is how we describe it as well, by the way. He's got that New Jersey brain.

[Salman Rushdie]

Exactly.

[Desi Lydic]

Do you think that there is a shift, you know, we think of fundamentalism as primarily a religious artifact? Have the algorithms made fundamentalism something different from that?

[Salman Rushdie]

I think maybe they have. I mean, I'm too. I'm too old to know, really, because I don't. Algorithms don't know what to do with me.

[Desi Lydic]

Right. Give them a chance.

[Salman Rushdie]

No, I do, but they don't know what to do. So I'm not algorithmically influenced.

[Desi Lydic]

Right.

[Salman Rushdie]

But people are. People are all the time. And, yeah, I mean, I think he was. Something happened in him which made it possible for him to decide to murder a total stranger.

[Desi Lydic]

Right.

[Salman Rushdie]

And that has to be brainwashing of some kind.

[Desi Lydic]

Right?

[Salman Rushdie]

Whatever you want to call it. But I call it brainwashing, yeah.

[Desi Lydic]

As I read the story, I started thinking, you know, we're so used to this idea that of violence with a cause, this idea that these. You know, there is something deep inside them that can almost be noble or understandable. This is not that. It struck me more as more in common with the school shootings we see here or. Or the other things that you were just this thing he saw.

[Salman Rushdie]

And you know what's so strange about it is, first of all, he must have known that he was messing up his own life as well.

[Desi Lydic]

Right.

[Salman Rushdie]

You know, not just mine.

[Desi Lydic]

At 24.

[Salman Rushdie]

At 24. And, you know, the last thing he did before he got on the bus from Fairview, New Jersey, to Chautauqua, the last thing he did, he canceled his gym membership.

[Desi Lydic]

Because he knew the prison had weights.

[Salman Rushdie]

He wasn't coming. He wasn't coming back. And why should he keep his standing order going? Wow.

[Desi Lydic]

So he's going through it and going like, I don't need serious radio anymore. I don't. So this. Was he suicidal or was he.

[Salman Rushdie]

I don't know. I mean, maybe we'll find out if. Whenever. If this trial happens, we might find out more about him.

[Desi Lydic]

But do you dread something like that? Is that something that still visits you?

[Salman Rushdie]

No. I mean, I think, you know, if I. I mean, if they need me to testify, I'll go testify, and I'll be in the courtroom with him. But my view is he should be scared about being in the courtroom with me.

[Desi Lydic]

Absolutely. Absolutely. Do you wonder sometimes, you know, and this is not. Not. Not to get. But you and I are both getting older, and you write a lot in the book about.

[Salman Rushdie]

Speak for yourself, France.

[Desi Lydic]

Settle down. I was just on jury duty, by the way. I don't know if you saw the picture of my doppelganger, but there is. There's mortality. You write about Martin Amos and Paul Oster and people that you've lost, even during the writing of this book, lost to esophageal cancer. You had a cancer scare.

[Salman Rushdie]

I did.

[Desi Lydic]

In the middle of rehabilitation. Yeah.

[Salman Rushdie]

In the middle of all this repair work, suddenly, apparently, I might have prostate cancer. I thought, that's not fair.

[Desi Lydic]

No. Well, you're right. He writes, he goes to the doctor. Well, you can tell.

[Salman Rushdie]

Yeah. I mean, I went to the doctor and they. Examining your prostate is not fun.

[Desi Lydic]

Again, speak for your depends on if you have a Jersey brain.

[Salman Rushdie]

Anyway, the first examination, they thought they found a bump on the prostate. And then I had to have an MRI scan. And the MRI scan, you know, it grades from 1 to 5 and 5 is really bad. And I came out at 4. It said, cancer probable. And then it turned out that it was not probable, that it had this bump had been caused by some other.

[Desi Lydic]

Infection and a medicine that they had actually given you.

[Salman Rushdie]

Yeah, exactly. And so then a second doctor, the first doctor's boss, also examined my prostate more thoroughly.

[Desi Lydic]

Were they lined up down the hallway? What are we doing here?

[Salman Rushdie]

No, this was very thorough. And also he was an Indian doctor and he was a fan of mine. So he was.

[Desi Lydic]

Nothing more uncomfortable than that.

[Salman Rushdie]

Extra thorough.

[Desi Lydic]

Yes.

[Salman Rushdie]

And he said, no, I think this might be caused by this other infection and so on. So they had to go back and have another MRI scan. And it said, one to five is one, no cancer. So I had cancer for two months and then I didn't.

[Desi Lydic]

It's so incredible because you face this as you write in the book, this 27 seconds. Yeah, it was just 27 seconds. And yet do you think about, and pardon the question, but do you think, does it matter how you die? As you watched your friends and you thought about your fate and your brush with mortality, and then to have this cancer scare, did it make you think it mattered how you die?

[Salman Rushdie]

I prefer not to.

[Desi Lydic]

I've got some bad news. It's coming for all of us.

[Salman Rushdie]

Bad news for all of us?

[Desi Lydic]

Yes.

[Salman Rushdie]

But, I mean, I don't know, I. My wife Eliza and I have decided we're planning our 100th birthday party. My hundredth birthday. I think it has to be a dance party.

[Desi Lydic]

Yes. So we're trying just your feet, though, not the whole body.

[Salman Rushdie]

So we try to decide who should DJ any.

[Desi Lydic]

I'll pick somebody. But it strikes me because you, whether you've wanted this mantle or not, and I'm assuming you don't, you represent something. You represent a courage and a freedom of artistic expression, of the importance of artistic expression and of the danger that artistic expression often visits upon the people who do it, it's a noble shield to carry. But not an easy one, I don't imagine.

[Salman Rushdie]

Not an easy one. And in a way, there's bits of me that would prefer to be well known for being, you know, a Good writer.

[Desi Lydic]

Well, I. I have to tell you, I'm pretty sure that's in there, too.

[Salman Rushdie]

Is that in there? But, you know, it used to be when I started out as a writer, when people would write about my books, they would mention that they were funny. And then after the attack on the Satanic Verses, everybody stopped saying I was funny.

[Desi Lydic]

Really? Because that book is satirical.

[Salman Rushdie]

Yeah. And people who read it. I get two reactions who read it now. One is, where's the dirty bit? Because we can't find it.

[Desi Lydic]

Yeah.

[Salman Rushdie]

And the second is, who knew it was funny? And I say people who read it.

[Desi Lydic]

But it's, you know, with that on you, do you feel there's an idea that you have to wear that heroism?

[Salman Rushdie]

I don't know about the heroism, but I think I have to be part of the fight.

[Desi Lydic]

Right.

[Salman Rushdie]

You know, there is a fight about free expression in America, too, at the moment. And I feel like I'm in that fight. I have a dog in that fight.

[Desi Lydic]

What do you think how the nature of fundamentalism has changed and how that affects artistic expression? Like, even now, when we see all the protests, you know, up at Columbia University, some students protest this, others think that's going too far and they're threatening people and we're crossing all those difficult lines. You spoke at the Penn banquet. Yes.

[Salman Rushdie]

Yeah, last year.

[Desi Lydic]

Last year. Which is a consortium of writers and poets and a lot of people, truly defenders of free speech. I just got a text today. They've cancelled.

[Salman Rushdie]

They've cancelled the prize giving because they have people attacking them for not being sufficiently anti Israeli or pro Palestinian or something.

[Desi Lydic]

Right.

[Salman Rushdie]

I mean, everybody's so angry right now.

[Desi Lydic]

Right.

[Salman Rushdie]

That nobody can listen or talk to anybody else. So people have shouted each other.

[Desi Lydic]

Listen, there was a critic, and this is gonna sound like a joke, a critic of Taylor Swift's new music album, the Torture Poe Society. They had to remove the critic's name from the critique because of death threats.

[Salman Rushdie]

Because he didn't like the record.

[Desi Lydic]

I didn't read it because I love the record.

[Salman Rushdie]

Yeah.

[Desi Lydic]

I don't want to hear any negativity.

[Salman Rushdie]

No, but so do I, John.

[Desi Lydic]

But. But it's. It speaks to. In 1989, there was an ayatollah and a fatwa and a group of religious muckety mucks who delivered the law from high above. And now we're all fundamentalists.

[Salman Rushdie]

Everybody's an expert. Everybody's got an opinion and a hostility and hostility. The level of anger is crazy right now.

[Desi Lydic]

Do you think of, you know, you have a dog in the fight in that creative. How do we. And I think about this a lot. How do we manage that? And is that just a function of the algorithm?

[Salman Rushdie]

It might be. I think to an extent it is, yeah. I mean, I don't know. Frankly, I'm glad you asked me, because I have the answer to the world's problems.

[Desi Lydic]

It's actually on page, if I would. But you are thoughtful enough and you've been through it enough that I know you have an opinion.

[Salman Rushdie]

Yeah, I mean, I just think people have to draw. Stop having such thin skins. You know, at the moment, we're all very easily offended. And what's more is we also believe that being offended is a sufficient reason for attacking something.

[Desi Lydic]

Right.

[Salman Rushdie]

But actually, everything offends somebody.

[Desi Lydic]

Always.

[Salman Rushdie]

Always. I mean, occasionally you.

[Desi Lydic]

What? How dare you, sir? I am offended.

[Salman Rushdie]

You see, and then if you go down that road, then we can't talk to each other anymore.

[Desi Lydic]

Right. But haven't groups always had a way of policing language or behavior? I think I'm trying to think, has my perspective changed on it or has the dynamic changed?

[Salman Rushdie]

I think what's happened is the temperature has got risen.

[Desi Lydic]

Right.

[Salman Rushdie]

I mean, yes, of course. People have always disagreed and people have always said, you can't say that. You've got to say this, that that's not new. What's new is the volume and the heat.

[Desi Lydic]

Right.

[Salman Rushdie]

And so what do we do about taking down the volume and taking down the heat? That's the question.

[Desi Lydic]

I mean, and again, not to make you the avatar of this, but this is coming from a man who, because of threats from fundamentalists, had to basically alter your entire life.

[Salman Rushdie]

Well, it did certainly have an impact. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what is sad is that I'd actually got my life back. Really. I mean, I've been living in New York City for. Getting on for 25 years.

[Desi Lydic]

Right. Well, you had made a decision. I'm going to come out of this and make myself available.

[Salman Rushdie]

And for 33 years it was fine.

[Desi Lydic]

Right.

[Salman Rushdie]

You know, and I mean, I, you know, I mean, I was doing everything that writers do. Book tours, readings, lectures, you know.

[Desi Lydic]

Oh, I know. I'm a writer. Don't stop. I've been there with the coffee clutches.

[Salman Rushdie]

Yeah.

[Desi Lydic]

And Oprah.

[Salman Rushdie]

Yeah. Well, I haven't been with Oprah.

[Desi Lydic]

None of us have.

[Salman Rushdie]

But anyway, so it was a shock when this thing out of a quarter of a century ago, more than that, 30 years ago, sort of came out of a crowd at me, you know, it was. I really was very surprised.

[Desi Lydic]

Do you find yourself now freed of that fear? Or is there still that ptsd? Like, what. Where's your. What does that do to you?

[Salman Rushdie]

Well, I mean, it does, you know, nothing good, but. But it's now been, what, 20 months or something? I think I'm pretty much back to myself at this point.

[Desi Lydic]

Do you feel like you're in that writing rhythm again? Does your. Has your mind started to dream again?

[Salman Rushdie]

Finish this.

[Desi Lydic]

And by the way, let me tell you something. And I. And we don't have people on where I don't either, you know, read it or take a look. It's such a beautiful and incredibly interesting and revelatory book. I really thank you for writing it because you had to endure something awful, but your insight into that experience is really a remarkable gift to give to other people.

[Salman Rushdie]

Thank you.

[Desi Lydic]

And I really do appreciate it.

[Salman Rushdie]

And it's got funny bits.

[Desi Lydic]

A couple of funny bits for a writer, not for a comic for a writer. But it really is a fantastic piece of work, and I thank you for doing it. The book is called Knife. It is available as we speak. Salman Rushdie, it's so nice to see you. Everyone is aware there was a huge viral moment in sports reporting, and you, Monica, were at the center of it concerning an appearance on Stephen A. Smith's show and a young basketball player on the Fever.

[Monica McNutt]

Mm.

[Desi Lydic]

Who's apparently generating quite a bit of controversy. Tell us a little bit about that viral moment.

[Monica McNutt]

All right, so the conversation, John, it started about this foul over the weekend that Kennedy Carter for the Chicago sky filed Caitlin Clark of the Indiana Fever. And I'm not gonna lie to you, John, if I take you through my day that morning, I get the call or the text, rather, and I'm like, are we really leading sports with this? Are we really leading sports with a foul?

[Desi Lydic]

A person got knocked over in a.

[Monica McNutt]

Basketball game in sports. All right, I'm like, fine, let's just do it. So we have the conversation with colleagues and friends, Stephen A. Smith, Shannon Sharpe. And my larger point in the conversation was the tenor and the prevailing narrative that has been created around this season's WNBA play is that it's the league versus Caitlin Clark. And that is just absolutely false. It is unfair to the women that have been there building this league to this moment so that Caitlin Clark's popularity could take it to the next level. And so by the end of the show, John, the tone had changed, and I just kind of needed to put my foot down a little bit.

[Desi Lydic]

There was some defensiveness on the part of the individuals. You've covered basketball for many, many years. You played basketball.

[Salman Rushdie]

I did.

[Desi Lydic]

You follow the NBA for many years. You know what you're talking about? The tenor of the conversation, as I could tell, was they were saying to you, no, we know what we're talking about. Even though we just tuned into this whole thing last Wednesday and there it is.

[Monica McNutt]

Right. And so, as I have said about this, it was a little bit of a challenge. Right. To gentlemen that I admire in terms of what they've built. Because if you haven't been here, I need three years. I need you to kind of have jumped in when Sedona Prince went viral for calling out the ncaa. I need you kind of to be here as this league has seen its best viewership year to year. Now, yes, it has absolutely been taken over the top this year, but this has been a snowballing effect to get to this moment. And so while Caitlyn is fantastic and I think she's gonna have an incredible career in the wnba, there are women that were worthy of coverage prior to her arriving. And I just will not be silenced when it comes to that.

[Desi Lydic]

Right. Beautifully said now. And I'm gonna tell you this, Tommy. I have not particularly followed the WNBA on a day to day. I follow women's basketball sometimes more in college, I think, and in the old days, Dawn Staley and those players, I did follow that.

[Monica McNutt]

Yep.

[Desi Lydic]

But I have incredibly strong opinions about it anyway.

[Monica McNutt]

Okay, fair enough, Fair enough.

[Desi Lydic]

But what did strike me when I started watching the highlights is, you know, this is a very physical league. You know, so many people complain about the NBA now as the league is soft and they don't play like they did, like the Knicks did in the 90s with oak and with all Mason and all those guys. And then you see this physical league and now they're saying, hey, why so physical? And I guess I'm struggling to understand, is it because so many new fans are being introduced to this who don't have the context.

[Monica McNutt]

Bingo. Nailed it. You can have a talk show, Jon.

[Desi Lydic]

Let's go. Let's get out of here. Let's do it. I nailed it. Let's do it. First take. I'm on first take.

[Monica McNutt]

All kidding aside. Yes. And listen again, I am by no means gonna be naive to the popularity of Caitlin Clark, but there is a contingent that followed her. And let's expand it out to bigger other women's college programs that have been terrific. South Carolina, lsu. We'll just go with those three. Stanford, if you will. Right. If you've only watched the college game for however Long and not follow the WNBA. You don't know that not only are these 144 of the best women basketball players in the world, most of them in their off season, they're not kicking it. They're in Europe playing in leagues that are arguably even more physical. And so the brand of basketball just has a level of toughness. Now, to me, I think the part of this conversation, John, that has been daunting for me is sports is about competing. It is literally the foundation. We need score, we gotta compete. And in the conversation around how we navigate the attention on the women's game, somewhere in there, competition should be watered down to protect the asset.

[Desi Lydic]

Yeah, no, that's. But you know, in your heart, there is another layer of conversation going on beneath this that has been. That has been introduced onto the stage, and that is, look, we all know everything that underlines society in many ways goes along race, class and gender.

[Monica McNutt]

Mm.

[Desi Lydic]

And race. Class and gender has entered the conversation.

[Monica McNutt]

In a very large way. And I think what is interesting, and I'm hoping that more folks are like, yo, this basketball is great. Like, I wanna learn more about these women. Race, culture, gender are things that the women of the WNBA have never shied away from. Right, right. A part of the bubble in 2020. They impact the election that goes down in Georgia in terms of standing on their values. Right. But if we have a conversation about this societal totem pole, if you will, black women, a large representation of queer women, like, these are all things that sit at intersectional identities that we just opened up your show talking about valuing these things. Right?

[Desi Lydic]

That's exactly right.

[Monica McNutt]

And so there are all these isms that have made the WNBA beautiful for 28 years, including this season. And even the WNBA has had to have its arc in terms of growth and leaning into who they are and who these women are both on and off the court. But it is at the base of it, if we for a second can take all that out. You really about to tell women how to compete? And you just got here.

[Desi Lydic]

Right. What we doing but isn't. And what's so amazing about it is what I have heard from some of the commentary are people who just got there saying, this is so unfair to the sweet white girl. Now, first of all, Caitlin Clark looks like a competitor. She looks like somebody who's really a competitor. But the odd part is I'm always interested in this idea that sports exists outside of the fault lines of regular society and isn't a reflection of those things and a continuation, in some respects, of those battles.

[Monica McNutt]

Mm. That existence is for probably like 20% of men's sports. And then you gotta deal with race, and then there's other things that you gotta deal with. But like we said, women's sports sits right in the midst of all of that. We could be not talking about basketball, and we got plenty of women's issues that we know have our country on fire.

[Desi Lydic]

Right, right, right.

[Monica McNutt]

Um, and so I think it's a beautiful time. And I don't think anybody that is a part of this league or has covered this league.

[Salman Rushdie]

Sure.

[Monica McNutt]

We lament kind of keeping this little thing that we love to protect it from all of the noise. Right, right. But in the same breath.

[Desi Lydic]

Yeah.

[Monica McNutt]

The eyeballs and the visibility and the growth is better for all involved. I mean, frankly, Jon, like Caitlin Clark got me here.

[Desi Lydic]

Right. You know what I mean? Not true. Well, let me tell you this. So I am gonna tell you this. The viral moment maybe brought you to some national attention. I have been loving what you do. You are such a good basketball analyst. Thank you. And announcer. I've been following you on the New York days. You and O'Keefe. Some of my favorite moments are the two of you.

[Monica McNutt]

O'Keefe is the pat Okeefe, my partner.

[Desi Lydic]

Play by play by play guy. I mean, you're so knowledgeable. I love basketball. I've been following the Knicks for 130 years.

[Monica McNutt]

OK.

[Desi Lydic]

I love it. All right. Yep. I was in the stands in Madison Square Garden at the very top of it when they played the Celtics in double overtime, when they won the championship in 72 against the Celtics. When it looks like all. I've loved it for a long time. Your voice, your knowledge, your passion has cut through it for me. It's very rare that I turn on the radio or hear a new voice and go, oh, that person. They can explain this to me. And you really do. I appreciate it. You're a wonderful actor. Thank you. I mean that wholeheartedly. That's how you got here.

[Monica McNutt]

Thank you.

[Desi Lydic]

Appreciate. By the way, I'd have had you on every day during the playoffs.

[Monica McNutt]

Oh, wow. My guy. We had fun. That was good.

[Salman Rushdie]

Is it.

[Desi Lydic]

Is there some sense of, like, a little bit of, like, when an indie band hits it big? Are there people within the WNBA community who feel like, I don't want this to belong to everybody. I want it to belong to this band of. Of sisters that have worked so hard to make it something.

[Salman Rushdie]

Whoa.

[Desi Lydic]

Monica McNutt, one of the band.

[Monica McNutt]

I have had that moment a few times.

[Desi Lydic]

Right.

[Monica McNutt]

Because as Much as the conversation has been dictated by the audience. Right. We still haven't really sat up and talked about the actual basketball of it. John.

[Desi Lydic]

Right.

[Monica McNutt]

I don't know how many people just joined the WNBA understand that the Las Vegas Aces are chasing down a three peat, which hasn't been done since the formative years of the league. In the Houston Comets. I don't know how many people. How many people know that the Connecticut Suns just lost their first game the other day. They were 9 and 0 to start the season. Right. What names can I help introduce you to? I mean, if you pick up a Rolling Stone, Asia Wilson and Brandon Stewart are part of the next issue, I believe. And so we've opened the door, but we're still, like, looking in instead of walking in, if that makes. If I may.

[Desi Lydic]

Absolutely.

[Monica McNutt]

Right, absolutely. And so I think it's a really unique time. And even with this Olympic team stuff. Right. Caitlin Clark, who you mentioned, is a tremendous competitor, said herself that's the toughest team to make.

[Desi Lydic]

Right.

[Monica McNutt]

Not surprised.

[Desi Lydic]

And she's a rookie. She's just coming out of Iowa.

[Monica McNutt]

She can say that. And she can also feel as if something in her has been awoken in terms of making that a goal of her own. Right. Like I would hope. And I know this is not a thing in sports. We gotta remember that two things can be true. Right. She's been great for the league, but there were 144 women prior to her and this class.

[Desi Lydic]

Right.

[Monica McNutt]

That had gotten this thing up to year 28.

[Desi Lydic]

Right. No question. And I think one of the difficulties of it is because it's a small league, I think people don't realize as small as the NBA is, there's still two rounds of a draft. And there are guys that get picked up out of a G league and there's space on a team, there's a big roster. When you're in the wnba, boy, there's just not that many teams. And you're talking about a draft, even when it's eight deep, 12 deep, some of those people may not make the team. These are women that have been playing the game for a very long time to that point.

[Monica McNutt]

John, like the conversation about marketing. Yeah, sure. Got it. Makes sense. Right? But there's also got to be a realization that these women that have made this thing their living, they are not necessarily chasing the financial benefit. The WNBA, highest paid player makes $250,000.

[Desi Lydic]

Right.

[Monica McNutt]

You know what I mean? And so there.

[Desi Lydic]

Isn't that how Brittney Griner ended up in Russia? She was playing overseas because it doesn't make the money.

[Monica McNutt]

That's exactly it. So many of these women supplement their income in the league that they play out of love to play at home with their teammates in front of their families, and they go get their real money overseas.

[Desi Lydic]

Right.

[Monica McNutt]

That is changing. I do think that this class and Clark is all a part of it changing. But I think just to slap on, do this because the money, again, is disrespectful and unfair to the women that have gotten this league to this point.

[Desi Lydic]

As a. As a broadcaster in. You know, your story in some ways mirrors the story of the WNBA in terms of having to fight for attention with people who in some respects are not particularly humble about their position and slightly defensive about those who may come at it from a different perspective. Do you see that reflected in what you had to go through and your journey to get to the desk that you're at now? And does that give you Hope for the WNBA's future?

[Monica McNutt]

I am. First of all, I'm thrilled about the WNBA's future. And yes. Right. I didn't go to the WNBA, but I played sports all the way through college. Shout out to my Georgetown Hoyas. Right. And so that foundation, that base, that understanding, hard work, improvement, that understanding of competition, all of those things have helped me to be able to stand 10 toes down in these various rooms, in these various conversations. Right.

[Desi Lydic]

It's intimidating.

[Salman Rushdie]

It is.

[Monica McNutt]

And in the same breath, the people that I'm having conversations with, whether they are well established television personalities or former athletes, they have done the same in their own way. Right. But it is a reminder, because of my background in sport, shout out to keeping young girls in sports for this exact reason. I too can be confident in the work that I've done to get to this place. And for me, that has been beautiful.

[Desi Lydic]

Who that is beautiful. And this, it really brings up the interesting question, who does have the worst takes? Any given day, Josh. Any given day. All right, final question. I am an enormous Knicks fan.

[Monica McNutt]

Yes, we know.

[Desi Lydic]

And I want desperately to know if what I'm seeing, if the love that I'm feeling, I have opened my heart again. You know, Monica, it's been so long. Just hold hands. But thank you so much. I've opened up my heart again to a basketball team. I never thought it would happen again.

[Monica McNutt]

I'm proud of you. I'm so proud of you. That was a big move.

[Desi Lydic]

But, Monica, I have to tell you something.

[Monica McNutt]

Tell me.

[Desi Lydic]

I'm afraid to be hurt.

[Monica McNutt]

It's okay.

[Desi Lydic]

And will the Knicks hurt me.

[Monica McNutt]

Life is full of.

[Desi Lydic]

That was a hesitation, Monica. That was not. That was a hesitation. I want them to be great.

[Monica McNutt]

Listen, I think they are on the right track.

[Desi Lydic]

All right?

[Monica McNutt]

But you gotta play the games.

[Desi Lydic]

That's why we go to the games. And I don't want to be a sad meme anymore, which is always what happens when I'm at the games. Monica, what a delight to meet you, and I'm such a fan of yours. And I wish you all the best and continued success. Monic McDonald, ESPN and ESPN Radio.