This Week's Interviews | Kaitlan Collins, Jeff Hiller, Twin Temple, and Theo Baker

Summary

The Daily Show: Ears Edition

Episode: This Week's Interviews | Kaitlan Collins, Jeff Hiller, Twin Temple, and Theo Baker
Date: August 2, 2026
Host: Trevor Noah / The Daily Show Team

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Episode Overview

This week’s Ears Edition features a series of in-depth, lively interviews blending politics, media, pop culture, and music. Trevor Noah and The Daily Show team welcome: Kaitlan Collins (CNN anchor and White House correspondent), Jeff Hiller (Emmy-winning actor), Twin Temple (the "satanic doo wop" band), and Theo Baker (Pulitzer-winning young journalist). Expect sharp wit, sharp questions, and candid conversations about accountability, showbiz oddities, Satanism (with tongue in cheek), and the perils of power on and off campus.

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Key Interviews & Insights

1. Kaitlan Collins – CNN’s Chief White House Correspondent

[01:08–22:01]

Covering Trump and Political Press Dynamics

• On the Surreality of Political Events
  Collins describes covering Trump for a decade, becoming accustomed to public attacks—including in the Oval Office and recently at a high-profile dinner.

  “I've covered Trump for 10 years, and so I've listened to pretty much all of his speeches... So I actually think it's helpful for other people to be able to listen to them in their entirety, which people really don't that much these days [...] What was most surprising to me was the room was filled with a lot of his staffers, his cabinet, his allies, Republicans in Congress—it was so quiet in the room during the President's remarks.” — Kaitlan Collins [02:37]

• On Unflappability and Professionalism
  The host praises her composure; she credits focusing on the questions, not Trump’s provocations.

  “I've always felt this... It's really not about me and I don't want it to be about my reaction. [...] I just think in those moments, it's important to put the reminder back on the work, on the question, and on the nonanswers that we get.” — Kaitlan Collins [06:37]

• Reporting Frustrations in the White House Press Corps
  Collins notes fewer tough follow-ups due to the administration including “friendly” press.

  “I think one frustration is there's not as much follow up inside those Oval Office moments as there used to be among reporters who do ask tough questions [...] But there are a lot of really good reporters asking good questions who get attacked by the President.” — Kaitlan Collins [09:45]

• On the Press’ Impact and Cynicism
  The conversation turns to waning institutional accountability, referencing Watergate versus today.

  “They've created such great defenses around public and political corruption that there's no longer that great reporting no longer leads to accountability...” — Host [15:26]
  “I think your job as a reporter is to report and to inform the American public and to ask tough questions.” — Kaitlan Collins [20:29]

Memorable Exchanges

• Wolf Blitzer’s Support

  "Wolf actually picked me up for the dinner that night and we rode together [...] He's just a dear friend. But actually, one of the best parts of the dinner was Wolf reading the descriptions of the awards..." — Kaitlan Collins [06:11]

• Host’s Satirical Role-Play Suggestion

  "But what if we could make it about you and the way you behave? What if you took a page out of his book?" — Host [07:56]

Notable Quotes

• “You don't have to smile while you’re doing that. And I think that's what's important.” — Kaitlan Collins [15:10]

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2. Jeff Hiller – Emmy-Winning Actor

[22:35–30:15]

Acting, Awards, and Awkward Outfits

• On Being Recognized
  Hiller jokes about his roles:

  “If they're holding their heart, it's Somebody Somewhere. And if they're like, are you that guy from—It's American Horror Story. But lately...they're like, ‘I like Widow's Bay.’” — Jeff Hiller [24:19]

• On Pluribus and “ChatGPT”-Style Acting
  The host notes his robotic "hive mind" character echoes ChatGPT:

  “A lot of people have said you're just like ChatGPT.” — Jeff Hiller [26:38]

• On Improvisation and Tone in New Shows

  “There's a little bit [of improv]. It's usually during rehearsal...But for the most part, it's just an incredibly scripted thing because, like you said, the tone is so strange.” — Jeff Hiller [28:17]

Memorable Quotes

• “Sometimes you aim for one target, you hit another, and you’re on screen for basically seven minutes...and you pull an Emmy nomination.” — Trevor Noah [27:20]
• “Whichever one has the biggest check, baby.” — Jeff Hiller on which genre he prefers [28:55]
• “The Jane booty Dench of our generation—emphasis on the booty.” — Jeff Hiller [30:00]

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3. Twin Temple – Satanic Doo Wop Band

[30:15–39:45]

Blending Satire, Religion, and Retro Sound

• On “Satanic Doo Wop”

  “We called it satanic doo wop because A, it’s funny and B, I think it’s just rock and roll, honestly...And yeah, we’re Satanists. So.” — Twin Temple [31:10]

• What Does Satanism Mean?
  With humor, they flip expectations:

  “A lot of people think that...Satanism is going to orgies and you’re nude under the full moon, drinking chalices of blood and hanging out with goats...we’re here to say, you know, that's absolutely true. That's what Satan says.” — Twin Temple [31:58]

  But more seriously:

  “I think on the daily, it's like living willfully...every day is the day we wake up and we get to live our true will...that is Satanism.” — Twin Temple [35:35]

• On Being Banned and Pushback
  Recently booted from a tour for “satanic imagery”—they see a through-line with rock's history of rebellion and anti-authoritarianism.

  “Rock and roll was born out of Jim Crow America. And rock and roll musicians were some of the first people to tear down the segregation rules.” — Twin Temple [33:20]

• On Recording with an Orchestra
  Influences cited: Phil Spector, classic Nashville; focus on analog, lush soundscapes.

  “It was really exciting. I mean, it felt like Christmas morning, like hearing the songs with the orchestra. I was just like...I was like crying. I was freaking out.” — Twin Temple [39:45]

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4. Theo Baker – Pulitzer-Winning College Journalist

[39:57–51:04]

Exposing Power and Corruption at Stanford at 20

• On His Book: "How to Rule the World"
  Baker summarizes his “three books in one”: tech campus ethnography, an investigative drama exposing Stanford’s president, and a coming-of-age story.

  “I went to Stanford as a coder...It's part this sort of insider cultural ethnography...part...investigative drama...and the third part...is sort of a Bildungsroman.” — Theo Baker [41:04]

• On The “War on Fun” and Campus Bureaucracy

  “Now, to host something at Stanford, right, you have to take a class and pass an exam to be able to apply three weeks in advance to the Party Review Committee...of course, the end result of that is the sort of death of many of the casual social interactions...” — Theo Baker [42:07]

• Shocking Tech Money & “Pre-Idea” Funding

  “It’s bizarre because it’s vested in the hands of teenagers...the newest new thing when I arrived at Stanford was something called pre idea funding...if you don't end up creating the company with it or collapse, it never has to be paid back.” — Theo Baker [44:04, 45:01]

• Investigating Scientific Misconduct
  Baker details discovering image manipulation and academic fraud by Stanford’s then-president Marc Tessier-Lavigne.

  “A pattern of falsified research that had emerged under his purview...when he was given the opportunity to correct the scientific record, he failed to decisively and forthrightly do so.” — Theo Baker [46:30]

• Being a Campus Whistleblower

  “It’s a weird position to be in...But it's also a really special thing to belong to a community that you care about. [...] That was a lot of the reason why I stuck it out and why it was important for me to put out this book while I was still a student there.” — Theo Baker [49:40–50:38]

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Timestamps for Notable Segments

| Segment | Guest(s) | Start | End | |-------------------------------------|--------------------|---------|---------| | Kaitlan Collins Interview | Kaitlan Collins | 01:08 | 22:01 | | Jeff Hiller Interview | Jeff Hiller | 22:35 | 30:15 | | Twin Temple Interview | Twin Temple | 30:15 | 39:45 | | Theo Baker Interview | Theo Baker | 39:57 | 51:04 |

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Memorable Quotes

• “You don't have to smile while you’re doing that. And I think that's what's important.”
  — Kaitlan Collins [15:10]

• “Whichever one has the biggest check, baby.”
  — Jeff Hiller [28:55]

• "I think on the daily, it's like living willfully...that is Satanism."
  — Twin Temple [35:35]

• "Pre-idea funding...Even though it sounds absurd, it is exactly what these people are doing."
  — Theo Baker [45:01]

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Tone and Style

The episode deftly mixes sharp wit, earnest investigation, comic camaraderie, and subversive satire—woven by Trevor Noah’s signature dry delivery and the guests' openness to both serious and lighthearted themes.

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Summary Takeaway

Whether confronting political power, artistic identity, or corruption cloaked in prestige, The Daily Show’s interviews this week are a study in pressing gently and persistently on the soft spots of American life—with a grin, and with grit.

Transcript

[Trevor Noah]

Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. Now, I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun if we made $15 bills, but it turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment

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of $45 for three months, $90 for

[Kaitlan Collins]

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[Mint Mobile Announcer]

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[Trevor Noah]

TJ Maxx dragged in.

[Twin Temple (William Temple and/or band member)]

The Devil Wears Prada 2 is now streaming on Disney plus and Hulu.

[Trevor Noah]

We are digital, we are downloadable, we are streamable.

[Twin Temple (William Temple and/or band member)]

The fashion event of the year is certified fresh.

[Trevor Noah]

Pull yourself together.

[Twin Temple (William Temple and/or band member)]

We have work to do. Critics say it's smart and witty and the perfect sequel.

[Commercial Announcer]

That's all.

[Kaitlan Collins]

Get Runway ready for The Devil Wears Prada 2 on Disney plus and Hulu.

[Twin Temple (William Temple and/or band member)]

Rated PG 13.

[Trevor Noah]

You're listening to Comedy Central.

[Daily Show Host (likely Trevor Noah or correspondent)]

Welcome back to the Daily show. My guest tonight, CNN's award winning chief White House correspondent and anchor of the Source with Kaitlan Collins. Please welcome to the program Kaitlan Coll.

[Commercial Announcer]

Wow.

[Daily Show Host (likely Trevor Noah or correspondent)]

Oh, what?

[Kaitlan Collins]

This is so fun to be here.

[Daily Show Host (likely Trevor Noah or correspondent)]

It's fun. Let me ask you a question.

[Kaitlan Collins]

Go on.

[Daily Show Host (likely Trevor Noah or correspondent)]

How was your weekend? What'd you do? Anything fun?

[Kaitlan Collins]

It was good. It was quiet.

[Daily Show Host (likely Trevor Noah or correspondent)]

Was quiet.

[Kaitlan Collins]

No, it wasn't.

[Daily Show Host (likely Trevor Noah or correspondent)]

That was Friday night.

[Mint Mobile Announcer]

Yeah.

[Daily Show Host (likely Trevor Noah or correspondent)]

There are times when I watch him and I think to myself, this can't be real. Like, this can't be America. America. You've heard of us? We're great.

[Kaitlan Collins]

Been here.

[Daily Show Host (likely Trevor Noah or correspondent)]

You've been here for years?

[Kaitlan Collins]

34 years.

[Daily Show Host (likely Trevor Noah or correspondent)]

Yes. We're the. We're number one. We're the best ranzas. What? In the room that night, did it feel surreal? Was he bombing as hard as it appeared on the TV?

[Kaitlan Collins]

You know, I've covered Trump for 10 years, and so I've listened to pretty much all of his speeches for 10 years with very little exception. And so I actually think it's helpful for other people to be able to listen to them in their entirety, which people really don't that much these days in the room. I think I was not surprised when he insulted me. That happens pretty regularly inside the Oval Office. This was just a bigger venue where it was happening. What was most surprising to me was the room was filled with a lot of his staffers, his cabinet, his allies, Republicans, In Congress, it was so quiet in the room during the President's remarks

[Daily Show Host (likely Trevor Noah or correspondent)]

because of how much they respect him.

[Kaitlan Collins]

Who's to say?

[Daily Show Host (likely Trevor Noah or correspondent)]

Hard to tell, really. In your mind, having viewed, first of

[Trevor Noah]

all,

[Daily Show Host (likely Trevor Noah or correspondent)]

what do you think is going on with his relationship to you? You are, I have to give you a great amount of credit. You are unflappable in those. You ask very straightforward questions. I have, I've written some stuff down about, like, you've asked it about you pardoned the founder of Binance. All these different things. You're asking him about that. A very straightforward question about why he pardoned this gentleman who now has an involvement in his family's crypto business or had helped promote it. His answer to you on that was, you said to him, this guy admitted to his crimes. Trump said to you, you don't know much about crypto. You know nothing about nothing. You're fake news.

[Kaitlan Collins]

But he didn't answer the question.

[Daily Show Host (likely Trevor Noah or correspondent)]

No.

[Kaitlan Collins]

And then he said he didn't really know who the person was.

[Daily Show Host (likely Trevor Noah or correspondent)]

Right. Why? You are very straightforward with him. You don't play coy. You don't frame it in gotcha ways. And he just, you're a terrible person. You're a stupid person. You don't smile when that's done. Does someone. Is there an office of like, smoothing things out that comes to your office and says, like in a bar when your friend gets in a fight, like, hey, man, he's drunk. Like, I'm so sorry. Like, what ha. What are they, Are they embarrassed?

[Kaitlan Collins]

You know, but that's why I ask the questions the way I do is because I want anyone to be able to listen to what I'm asking, whether that's at a briefing or during a moment with the President and think, you know, I want to know the answer to that too. Or that is a good question. I don't want it to only serve one audience or one political leaning. I want anyone, you know, from my family in Alabama to people in the White House, to people in Washington to be able to hear that answer or hear that question and think, what is the answer to that? And so, well, the answer is very

[Daily Show Host (likely Trevor Noah or correspondent)]

clearly, you should smile more. It's the answer to all the questions. Here's. I want to have you.

[Trevor Noah]

It's stunning to me.

[Daily Show Host (likely Trevor Noah or correspondent)]

We were watching when he was doing that, you were sitting next to Wolf Blitzer.

[Kaitlan Collins]

Yes.

[Daily Show Host (likely Trevor Noah or correspondent)]

Wolf Blitzer is a 78 year old man. Not a lot of density in those bones. I know what I'm talking about. I'm in the same position. He looked like he wanted to go up there and shake him. He was so angry on your behalf. But you don't get angry. How do you maintain that level of detachment?

[Kaitlan Collins]

Well, first off, can I say about Wolf. Wolf actually picked me up for the dinner that night and we rode together to go to the dinner. He was presenting the awards that night after he was supposed to do them back in April.

[Daily Show Host (likely Trevor Noah or correspondent)]

He still has his license.

[Kaitlan Collins]

Wolf is an excellent driver. But we went to the dinner together, and Wolfe and I are really good friends. He was one of the first people that I met when I worked at, when I started at cnn.

[Daily Show Host (likely Trevor Noah or correspondent)]

Right.

[Kaitlan Collins]

And he's called me every day since Friday. And he's just a dear friend. But actually, one of the best parts of the dinner was Wolf reading the descriptions of the awards in front of them and why, why people, why the reporters got them. You know, my colleagues who also did esteemed reporting, great reporting and deserved those awards. And so I loved hearing Wolf read the descriptions of what they were and why people got them. In terms of my reaction, I've always felt this, mm. Regardless of who's the president, whether it's Joe Biden, Donald Trump, those are the two I've covered. It's really not about me and I don't want it to be about my reaction. And so I think if you let it become about that, then it becomes a back and forth between the two of us. And instead, I think it's more effective to remind people in those moments when he is insulting me or when he is criticizing me about the question I asked or the reporting that I did that he was so angry about in this moment and the fact that I got an award for it really bothered him, clearly. And so I just think in those moments, it's important to put the reminder back on the work on the question and on the non answers that we get.

[Daily Show Host (likely Trevor Noah or correspondent)]

It's a you do it very well.

[Trevor Noah]

So.

[Daily Show Host (likely Trevor Noah or correspondent)]

And I appreciate that answer. But what if we could make it about you and the way you behave? What if you took a page out of his book? I've come up with a little role play.

[Kaitlan Collins]

Oh, God.

[Daily Show Host (likely Trevor Noah or correspondent)]

You can be you in this or you could be Trump. It's up to you. I think you'd probably be better off being Trump on this one. So let's say you're Trump and I'm you. This is just a chance for you to kind of play his game. He's so concerned about appearance, so play in that arena. All right, so you're Donald Trump. Call on me. KAITLAN collins, cnn

[Kaitlan Collins]

I'M really nervous about this. Kaitlan, go ahead.

[Daily Show Host (likely Trevor Noah or correspondent)]

Hey, tub. You look pretty today. The big beautiful beal took a million children off of food assistance. Why are your hands so up? I didn't say it would work. Do you what is.

[Kaitlan Collins]

I think I'll keep it the way it is.

[Daily Show Host (likely Trevor Noah or correspondent)]

You probably keep it the way it is. It's probably smart. It's probably why I don't work there. What are the frustrations within the White House press corps? What do you do? You talk about the difficulty of permeating their fantasy bubble, the treatment that they have, the criticisms that they have of you guys. What is the frustration in that group of White House correspondents?

[Kaitlan Collins]

Well, I mean, it's obviously a really diverse group of correspondents. Everyone. You know, people work for different outlets. They have different questions that they want to ask. I mean, the biggest change in the outlets that cover the president from when he was in office the last time is how the White House has filled the press pool that goes into the Oval with a lot of people who ask friendly questions that aren't really probing or tough. And I think you can ask whatever question you want on whatever subject you want. There's a lot to ask about cost of living, Iran, war, whatever the subject is that day. What I don't like is when people use those moments to ask a question that is something that's not producing a response, that is really asking something, probing of someone who is the highest office in the land, a taxpayer funded individual, which is how I personally believe that that time is best spent. And so I think one frustration is there's not as much follow up inside those Oval Office moments as there used to be among reporters who do ask tough questions and do ask fair but challenging questions. And so that is something that I think is a struggle. But there are a lot of really good reporters asking good questions who get attacked by the President. I mean, even just today he was asking where all the money that is being made from Venezuela is going, right?

[Daily Show Host (likely Trevor Noah or correspondent)]

He's not telling anybody. There's like billions of dollars and $3 billion reportedly.

[Kaitlan Collins]

And a reporter asked three times, where is that money going? And there was no answer today. And then he attacked another reporter for asking why he wants to cancel the Senate's recess where they should be campaigning. And so there are moments where reporters, not just myself, ask questions that don't get good answers.

[Daily Show Host (likely Trevor Noah or correspondent)]

Right? Is there ever a thought that you got? So they clearly have meetings before these and they come up with all their strategies to try and deflect the good questions, the Insightful questions, the ones. Is there ever any thought for you all to form, like in Avengers, like a group of people that combine your powers so that you work so that. Because what's so strange about him is he very clearly needs you in a way that I don't think I've ever seen a president have that before. There's something inside him that he lashes out at the press corps but needs them to see him more than anybody I've ever seen in public life. That's why he gives his phone number out to everybody. He even said it at the White House Correspondents Dinner. He said, you know, nobody else does that, but I do that because I like it.

[Kaitlan Collins]

And he criticized his staff actually during the dinner. Yes, because he said he would ask them, you know, have any reporters called for comment? And they would say no or it's not worth your time.

[Jeff Hiller]

Right.

[Kaitlan Collins]

And he was frustrated by that. I mean, his press team was in the room and he was criticizing them for saying that they're basically blocking him, which is why he started picking up the numbers himself.

[Daily Show Host (likely Trevor Noah or correspondent)]

And he said something very interesting. Cuz he said it's basically because if I talk to them I might be able to manipulate them to get a better story. I mean, and he says this stuff out loud. So is there a thought in that room that you guys work together? I don't know how that would work or if that's even logical.

[Kaitlan Collins]

Yeah, I think reporters should ask what they want to ask. I don't think any reporter should be saying this is what we're asking today or you need to follow up on this. But if a colleague of mine asks a good question and doesn't get an answer, I mean, this actually happened with the Treasury Secretary when they were considering putting Trump's face on a $250bill for the United States birthday. Obviously that's illegal. And so there are so many questions for Scott Bessant at this briefing on

[Daily Show Host (likely Trevor Noah or correspondent)]

it,

[Kaitlan Collins]

and he wouldn't, he kept declining to answer and pushing it off on Congress, but obviously Congress was doing this because the White House wanted them to do it. And I think I was the fourth reporter maybe to ask. And I think sometimes reporters think, well, I'll just move on because he's not answering it. But actually I think the more you ask, the more revealing it is. And finally at the end of his answer to me, he said that he didn't see a problem with putting the President's face on a $250 bill. And so there is value in follow up questions, right?

[Daily Show Host (likely Trevor Noah or correspondent)]

And coming through is there in your mind is what his fascination with you to some extent that you don't react and bend the knee is some of what he's doing provocation and trolling and becoming more and more frustrated that you're just staying professional to what you want to do.

[Kaitlan Collins]

I'm not sure I can't get into his head. And you know, I've had the same model the entire time I covered him and I've treated it the same way. I've never gotten in a back and forth with him. I've always brought it back to the question. I think he does surround himself with people who praise him or laugh at his jokes. And when he's confronted with someone who is asking a challenging question or a critical question of his policy or strategy in the Iran war, I think he doesn't like it and he lashes out over it. I mean, there have been moments where I've gone into the Oval Office when I'm on behalf of the TV pool and I haven't even asked a question yet and he starts criticizing me. So it's not even always just about the questions. Sometimes it's just my presence in the room. But again, I really think it's. I really do think it's important is this real life?

[Daily Show Host (likely Trevor Noah or correspondent)]

Like this is crazy.

[Kaitlan Collins]

But I really do think it's important in that moment. It really isn't about me because I do think my colleagues at cnn, my colleagues in the press corps do a good job of trying to ask tough questions, doing good reporting. You don't have to smile while you're doing that. And I think that's what's important.

[Daily Show Host (likely Trevor Noah or correspondent)]

I want to ask you, you know, I think it was Edward R. Murrow who first said, turn that frown upside down. J.D. vance said something really interesting recently. We was talking about Watergate and he said about Watergate probably would be now this is sort of the seminal public corruption, political corruption case of our lifetimes. I was raised on the Watergate hearings. He said it would probably be a 12 hour story now. And at first I thought he was sort of saying like, because it wasn't that big a deal. But I think the point he was making is they've created such great defenses around public and political corruption that there's no longer that great reporting no longer leads to accountability through the other institutions that are there to pick that up. Watergate was interesting because two reporters got this great story and reporters are still doing great reporting like that today. They found it, it shocked the conscience of a nation, the political system and the legal system went into action and created accountability, both jail time for the perpetrators and impeachment for Nixon, which is why he resigned so that he wouldn't get impeached.

[Kaitlan Collins]

Yeah. And I don't think they subpoenaed Bob Woodward or Carl Bernstein's mother or spouses like they just did with the New York Times. Reporters shout out to my colleagues for the New York Times who really good reporting on Air Force One recently who should not have been subpoenaed for that good reporting.

[Daily Show Host (likely Trevor Noah or correspondent)]

They went to their house, they showed

[Kaitlan Collins]

up at their house and they subpoenaed their one reporter's mother and two spouses of them before they eventually withdrew them because a judge intervened on the Nixon comment from Vice President Vance. He also said the deep state took down Richard Nixon, which I think Richard Nixon took down Richard Nixon. But to your point, it wasn't just, you know, it wasn't just the reporting that led to Nixon, Nixon's resignation. It was Republicans in the Senate who made clear that he had crossed a line with them as that investigation into his actions was proceeding.

[Daily Show Host (likely Trevor Noah or correspondent)]

And a legal system that held people accountable for break ins and obstruction and cover ups and even Spiro Agnew. People forget Spiro Agnew, who was the vice president at the time, resigned months before Watergate took down Nixon on a bribery scandal. A bribery scandal that the Supreme Court at this point, I guess the point is, does the press feel an impotence? It makes me cynical to watch the stories that you guys are uncovering about a Qatari jet that's you know, millions and millions of dollars by a foreign government that's not safe enough for the President to fly on it. And also the guy who is the envoy to that region is getting money from that area while also trying to negotiate peace deals from within those. The levels of corruption within his family and that administration are exponentially beyond anything that I think we have ever experienced in our lifetime. And I keep waiting for the other institutions to wake up and they feel like they're gone. Like there is no political, there would never be an impeachment on this. And the legal system seems utterly, not only are they not interested in prosecuting, they're more interested in redefining what corruption means to allow more of it. How does that affect the reporting aspect of it? Is there a sense of is anyone going to follow up on this? Epstein stuff is a great example.

[Kaitlan Collins]

Well, I think for reporters, I mean from our perspective we can just do our jobs which is fair reporting, tough reporting and good questions and fair Questions. I think in terms of the Epstein example, that is something that there was a wealth of really good reporting on, including from those reporters from the Wall Street Journal who were on stage on Friday night.

[Daily Show Host (likely Trevor Noah or correspondent)]

Right.

[Kaitlan Collins]

But also, I mean, there was a long shot bid in Congress to release the files when the Justice Department did not do so. And it became not a long shot bid and it actually happened. And so there have been moments where that does happen.

[Daily Show Host (likely Trevor Noah or correspondent)]

But now they've withheld 3 million of those documents. The woman that was in prison got an upgrade. Nobody else has gone to jail. Todd Blanche won't meet with any of the victims except in a pro forma way to get Thom Tillis vote. It's one of the frustrations about doing this show. People always ask me, you know, what have been some of the frustrations? And I always say that it's cathartic but impotent. And I can accept that from what I do. Cuz it's satire still.

[Kaitlan Collins]

Yeah.

[Daily Show Host (likely Trevor Noah or correspondent)]

I feel like what you guys do deserves better than that. And I. And I wonder if that ever crosses your or. It's just. You've just gotta focus.

[Kaitlan Collins]

I think your job as a reporter is to report and to inform the American public and to ask tough questions.

[Daily Show Host (likely Trevor Noah or correspondent)]

Why are you so mature? Why are you like.

[Kaitlan Collins]

But really, like, that's our job. And I think the important thing is that we keep doing it regardless of criticisms or personal insults.

[Daily Show Host (likely Trevor Noah or correspondent)]

Fine. When you go back, does Carolyn Levitt ever pull you over and go like, yeah, he says that shit to me all the time too. Don't worry about it. Like, does he give you like, attaboy? Like anything? Like little punch, like, hey, man, hang in there. No, nothing.

[Kaitlan Collins]

I'm not really in favor with the public side of the White House. That speaks for a living.

[Daily Show Host (likely Trevor Noah or correspondent)]

Bring the tea. What's happening?

[Kaitlan Collins]

No, I mean, you see it. It all happens on camera. You see it all.

[Daily Show Host (likely Trevor Noah or correspondent)]

And all for the crime of what, asking direct. Like, seriously, that's what's so insane about all this.

[Kaitlan Collins]

Yep.

[Daily Show Host (likely Trevor Noah or correspondent)]

So thank you for doing that. Thank you for that. And thank you for having the stones

[Jeff Hiller]

to hang in there.

[Daily Show Host (likely Trevor Noah or correspondent)]

I mean that. And also what's so nice about it is you're keeping your side of the street clean. Meaning, like you are just putting in the work. Like, that's the nice thing. I've said this to you. You know, I have all my problems with the journalists.

[Kaitlan Collins]

Oh, I know.

[Daily Show Host (likely Trevor Noah or correspondent)]

You keep your. You. You keep it together. You do a great job. I appreciate you.

[Kaitlan Collins]

Thank you.

[Daily Show Host (likely Trevor Noah or correspondent)]

All right.

[Commercial Announcer]

This episode is brought to you by Google. Chrome, you think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50 page restoration. Or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini in Chrome is here for it, ready to make anything online make sense. There's no place like Chrome. Check responses, setup required, compatibility and availability various 18.

[Trevor Noah]

My guest tonight is an Emmy winning actor who's currently nominated for outstanding guest actor in the Apple TV series Pluribus. Please welcome Jeff Hiller. I gotta tell you, it is so nice to have a fellow tall person out here.

[Jeff Hiller]

I know.

[Trevor Noah]

Hollywood is so short.

[Jeff Hiller]

I know, I know. I always feel like I'm standing next to someone and I'm about to like take them up the Empire State Building. Exactly. I look so shockingly tall.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. It feels like Jon Stewart always looks at me with those eyes like, will you put me? And I'm like, no, you just have to grow up a little bit, right?

[Jeff Hiller]

Oh, I always say yes.

[Trevor Noah]

Well, you do. And that what makes you so good? You're so kind. You put all those actors right on your shoulders and you just carry. You are here. Congratulations on your Emmy nomination.

[Jeff Hiller]

Thank you. And you, congratulations.

[Trevor Noah]

You do it for the noms, right?

[Jeff Hiller]

Oh, that's the only reason I do it.

[Trevor Noah]

You have to get those nominations and

[Jeff Hiller]

it, it's been a really dry 25 years, but the last two.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, it's all about it. You're on two hit shows though. You're not only on Pluribus, hit show, Emmy nominated. You're also on Widow's Bay, which everybody can't get enough of. Congratulations. Yeah, it's a good show.

[Kaitlan Collins]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

And you won an Emmy last year for somebody somewhere.

[Daily Show Host (likely Trevor Noah or correspondent)]

I'm amazing.

[Trevor Noah]

You're incredible. Where's what I wonder. I'm curious now on the street when people say, they're like, hey, are you that guy from. What do they say?

[Jeff Hiller]

Well, if they're holding their heart, it's somebody somewhere. And if they're like, are you that guy from It's American Horror Story. But a lot lately, even like the lady at Nordstrom Rack, they're like, I like Widow's Bay.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, yeah.

[Jeff Hiller]

I like when you screamed in Widow's Bay.

[Trevor Noah]

You think the Nordstrom Rack folks are really Widow's Bay people? Well, Bergdorf, is that more Pluribus folk?

[Jeff Hiller]

I've never been to Bergdorf.

[Trevor Noah]

I will be honest. I said Bergdorf. I don't know what I'm talking about. It's just, it's a comedic name of a department store here.

[Jeff Hiller]

Yes, it is a department store, right?

[Twin Temple (William Temple and/or band member)]

Yeah.

[Jeff Hiller]

There's probably Pluribus folk in there. When I shop at Bergdorf, everyone notices me from Pluribus. We're gonna edit that back.

[Trevor Noah]

No, that's in there.

[Daily Show Host (likely Trevor Noah or correspondent)]

Okay, good.

[Trevor Noah]

So Pluribus, you are so funny in Pluribus, and I feel like you play.

[Jeff Hiller]

It's a drama.

[Trevor Noah]

It's a drama. Yeah. I think it's. You show up, and I laughed, and that has a little bit to do with the costume choice.

[Jeff Hiller]

Oh, I know.

[Trevor Noah]

Can we see a picture of what Jeff was wearing in Pluribus? So they put you in.

[Jeff Hiller]

Look at my face. I'm like, what happened?

[Trevor Noah]

When do they spring an outfit like that on you?

[Jeff Hiller]

So this is a very secret show. You know, I didn't know the concept or anything when I auditioned, and then I just show up to the fitting. I still don't know the concept. And they're like, put on this bicycle outfit. You know? And I was like, what is this show? Had just, like, the slightest moment where I was like, am I in porn? And then Vince Gilligan was like, well, the hive mind. They don't have pride of personal appearance. And I was like, but I do.

[Trevor Noah]

As an actor, I can't. There's vanity here.

[Jeff Hiller]

Did let me wear my shapewear underneath the. Is that right?

[Trevor Noah]

So you have an extra layer there.

[Jeff Hiller]

You can kind of see the whale bones.

[Trevor Noah]

You know, it keeps it tight.

[Jeff Hiller]

Yeah, yeah, keep it tight.

[Trevor Noah]

Well, like, this Pluribus is such a fascinating show, and you play a character who's also part of a larger hive mind. But it almost seems like as you watch, you're almost. It's almost as if you're playing Chat GPT. Yeah, right. You're interacting with people. Have you heard this? Yes.

[Jeff Hiller]

A lot of people have said you're just like ChatGPT.

[Trevor Noah]

Now, is that. Is that a reference point, you going into it or even in your performance? Or is that talked about with Vince Gilligan beforehand?

[Jeff Hiller]

No, it was never mentioned until it came out. I think, like, we shot this kind of a long time ago. It was kind of before ChatGPT was ubiquitous, and so I hadn't really. I didn't really think about it. I was trying to convey extreme love for her, and instead I did chatgpt.

[Trevor Noah]

So that's your.

[Jeff Hiller]

Anyway, I got an Emmy nomination for it.

[Trevor Noah]

Wow.

[Daily Show Host (likely Trevor Noah or correspondent)]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

I mean, there you go. If that's the best you can do, congratulations.

[Jeff Hiller]

Sometimes you aim for one target, you

[Trevor Noah]

hit another, and you're on Screen for basically seven minutes. Yeah. And you pull an Emmy nomination.

[Daily Show Host (likely Trevor Noah or correspondent)]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Are you like the Jane? Jane. Jane. Dame Judi Dench.

[Jeff Hiller]

I'm the Jane Dench.

[Trevor Noah]

You're the Jane Dench of the Emmys this season, right?

[Jeff Hiller]

Jane Dench.

[Daily Show Host (likely Trevor Noah or correspondent)]

Exactly.

[Jeff Hiller]

Jane Dench. The woman that you say, who?

[Daily Show Host (likely Trevor Noah or correspondent)]

Who, Who?

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, she was that woman from that thing. Cause she won an Oscar for, like eight minutes on screen. Yeah.

[Jeff Hiller]

For Shakespeare in Love. Yeah. But she was dressed up like Queen Elizabeth. But I wore that bicycle thing, so.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, it's costume.

[Jeff Hiller]

Judi Dench.

[Trevor Noah]

You are Judi Dench, God damn it. Now, Widow's Bay. I love Widow's Bay. Part of it is it has such an interesting tone to it. It's scary, it's funny, it's all sorts of things. And I know the creator, Katie Dippold, is a UCB person from the improv community that you did comedy with back in the day. Yeah. I'm curious if improv is on the set or if at this level everybody just cops to the fact that. No, it's just a parlor trick people did in their youth.

[Jeff Hiller]

We wasted our lives.

[Trevor Noah]

So much time.

[Jeff Hiller]

No, there's a little bit. It's usually like a little improvising during the rehearsal and then they say, yeah, you can do that one. But for the most part, it's just an incredibly scripted thing because, like you said, the tone is so strange that they really have to be like, we're working really hard on it. Yeah, yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

How do you enjoy Pluribus and Widow's Bay is such a. Those are dark shows. I would.

[Jeff Hiller]

One Little Clown Killer and it's a dark show.

[Trevor Noah]

There's a little. The Little Clown Killer. Somebody somewhere is such a life affirming, heartwarming show. Two different worlds to live in.

[Daily Show Host (likely Trevor Noah or correspondent)]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

What do you prefer?

[Jeff Hiller]

Whichever one has the biggest check, baby.

[Trevor Noah]

Smart. Smart capitalism.

[Jeff Hiller]

I mean, obviously somebody somewhere was like my heart. But I love being at Windows Bay because it is so tonally odd and strange. Basically, I just like to. I like to work, so whatever is good with me.

[Trevor Noah]

Is there any talk about the season two?

[Jeff Hiller]

It's gonna be. There's gonna be one. But no, they don't tell me anything.

[Trevor Noah]

You don't know shit.

[Jeff Hiller]

No, because I got loose lips.

[Trevor Noah]

I just see you over at Bergdorf telling everybody exactly.

[Jeff Hiller]

Well, if you like Pluribus, let me tell you about this thing. This means shoplifting.

[Trevor Noah]

I wanna know. Your Emmy speech last year had people in tears. They loved it. What are you gonna say this year when you win? Do you know I'm not gonna win. You're gonna win, Jeff.

[Jeff Hiller]

Okay, well, I'll say this one makes more sense. Suck it.

[Trevor Noah]

I think that's give the people what they want to hear, right? Jeff, you are a delight. The Jane booty dench of our generation.

[Jeff Hiller]

Emphasis on the booty.

[Trevor Noah]

Emphasis on the booty. Blue disc and Winners bay are sweetly now in opportunity. Get a halo. Did you know Sam's Club isn't a store? It's actually a club with cool finds and like a whole community. It's a club.

[Twin Temple (William Temple and/or band member)]

Of course, Jason.

[Kaitlan Collins]

It's in the name Sam's Club.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, yeah. Come join us, Sam's Club. My guests tonight are a band who described their sound as satanic doo wop. Their forthcoming new album is called Doomed Lovers. Please welcome twin Temple. William Temple. Welcome to the Daily Show.

[Twin Temple (William Temple and/or band member)]

Thank you for having us.

[Kaitlan Collins]

Of course.

[Trevor Noah]

Thank you for being here.

[Twin Temple (William Temple and/or band member)]

We are so excited to be here.

[Trevor Noah]

We are very excited to have you as well. Although I gotta say, satanic doo wop. Isn't that. Isn't that style been done to death? What is satanic doo wop?

[Twin Temple (William Temple and/or band member)]

I mean, you know, we called it satanic doo wop just because A, it's funny and B, I think it's just rock and roll, honestly, you know, we draw a lot of inspiration from everywhere, like jazz, blues, Latin, all over the place. And yeah, we're Satanists. So.

[Trevor Noah]

You're Satanists?

[Theo Baker]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

You're Satanists?

[Twin Temple band member]

We are.

[Trevor Noah]

What does that mean, to be a Satanist? Does that just mean who doesn't go to church? Like, am I a Satanist?

[Twin Temple band member]

Maybe?

[Twin Temple (William Temple and/or band member)]

I think you are. I mean, didn't I see you at last night's Satanic orgy?

[Trevor Noah]

Hey, I had a mask on. You know you're not supposed to call that out. Oh, I know. You're gonna go straight to heaven for that one, I gotta tell you. Oh, God. What is it? How do you view Satanism? I think that's something I hear, but I don't know what the tenets of Satanism now is in this day and age.

[Twin Temple (William Temple and/or band member)]

Well, I think a lot of people think that, you know, Satanism is going to orgies and you're nude under the full moon, drinking chalices of blood and hanging out with goats. And I mean, we're here to say, you know, that's absolutely true. That's what Satan says.

[Twin Temple band member]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. Where do I sign up for this? I don't need to go to the blood thing, but I could really use that first part. Sounds like a lot of fun.

[Twin Temple (William Temple and/or band member)]

Jordan, you don't have to keep pretending.

[Kaitlan Collins]

Okay.

[Twin Temple (William Temple and/or band member)]

Okay.

[Jeff Hiller]

This is.

[Trevor Noah]

You can just.

[Twin Temple (William Temple and/or band member)]

Definitely saw you at the orgy last night.

[Trevor Noah]

I was wearing a mask, for God's sakes. So you guys made some news recently.

[Kaitlan Collins]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

You were kicked off of a recent tour for satanic imagery, and that sort of made the headlines across the U.S. i'm curious both how that felt and also how the response has been to that.

[Twin Temple band member]

Yeah, I mean, we were pretty shocked, you know, a few days before the shows began.

[Twin Temple (William Temple and/or band member)]

I feel like it's time for maybe a little more satanic panic. Like, let's get it going again. You know what I mean?

[Trevor Noah]

What is it? No, there was that idea of satanic panic back in the day. Right. But rock and roll has a history of being anti. Authoritarianism. Anti. I mean, just being rebellious in its spirit. Do you see, like, a kinship to those early eras of rock and roll? Yeah, absolutely.

[Twin Temple (William Temple and/or band member)]

I mean, I think for us, you know, the reason why we're drawn to rock and roll is that it was always about pushing back against societal norms, you know, about questioning the status quo. Like, for example, I mean, rock and roll was born out of Jim Crow America. And rock and roll musicians were some of the first people to tear down. You know, the segregation rules. It's like, you know, you look at Frankie Lyman who sings like, Teenager in Love, and you wouldn't think, oh, he's some, you know, crazy shock rocker. But actually, when he performed on, I want to say it was like the Tammy show or something. Black and white kids, teenagers, were dancing together, and people were like, he was banned from the show. They pulled the segment, like, to me, yeah, it's doo wop, right? People imagine it as like soda pop shop music, but this was something that was really shaking the core of America and rattling people's cages and being like, why are we segregated? You know what I mean? This is a cocktail. And so I think that's kind of what draws us both to, like, rock and roll, but also Satanism. I think there's a lot of through lines.

[Trevor Noah]

Do you see that sort of as a Trojan horse, like the idea that you're using, call it Satanism or call it rock and roll, it doo wop, as a way to get other ideas into the mainstream. And I guess I'm curious if you approach the way you make your art with that in mind.

[Twin Temple (William Temple and/or band member)]

Yeah, a little bit. I mean, I think at its core, though, it's like the music that we truly love. You know, I grew up on the Beatles. The first time I saw, like, an Elvis cassette and listened to it, I was like, oh, that's what I wanna do. It's just like always been something that I've genuinely just loved. I think as far as like bringing the Satanism to it, that's another element of who we are. Right. And so it felt like with this project, it was a way to just combine everything we love. Cause it's like really fun to go shopping for human skulls and like Roy Orbison records on the same day you. And this gives us an excuse to do all the things that we want to do.

[Trevor Noah]

So how, like are we tongue in cheek with our Satanism or are we like. Yeah, or are we living it day in and day out?

[Twin Temple (William Temple and/or band member)]

I mean, both.

[Twin Temple band member]

We're both.

[Trevor Noah]

We're both, yeah. Is that possible?

[Twin Temple (William Temple and/or band member)]

Absolutely.

[Trevor Noah]

So what does the day to day Satanist manifesto look like? Like you wake up, like, what does a Satanist have for breakfast?

[Twin Temple band member]

I mean, I think on the daily, it's like living willfully, you know, it's like every day is the day we wake up and we get to live our true will. You know, we get to make art, we get. Get to do what we love. So to us, that is Satanism. Being the individuals we are like, know thyself and being able to carry that out every day.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, yeah. That's Socrates, right?

[Twin Temple (William Temple and/or band member)]

It's a temple of Delphi.

[Commercial Announcer]

Yeah.

[Twin Temple (William Temple and/or band member)]

Know thyself.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. So you're just, you're just old school philosophy. Yeah, I mean, look, mixed with essentially libertarianism. Is that what it is? Modern, Modern Satanism is just like libertarianism, but like with better outfits kind of.

[Daily Show Host (likely Trevor Noah or correspondent)]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

[Twin Temple (William Temple and/or band member)]

It's humanism with. Right.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, yeah, Well, I can get into that.

[Twin Temple (William Temple and/or band member)]

Oh, and to answer your question, before Satanists drink virgin's blood for breakfast.

[Trevor Noah]

That's what they drink for breakfast. Well, you guys have gotten pushback from places like Alex Jones in the past, right? Because you guys have been around for a while since 2016, is that right?

[Twin Temple (William Temple and/or band member)]

Like 1666.

[Jeff Hiller]

Gotcha. Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay, good. Okay. Yeah. I don't know where I got my research from.

[Twin Temple (William Temple and/or band member)]

Yeah, you need to check the notes.

[Trevor Noah]

But there was a panic in the far right. Sort of saw what you guys did as aggressive, anti religion. Like what is it like to engage in that kind of conversation, this kind of music, playfulness and expression in a time where things get weaponized on the Internet and go viral and go fast.

[Twin Temple (William Temple and/or band member)]

It's fun.

[Trevor Noah]

It's fun.

[Twin Temple (William Temple and/or band member)]

We're having a blast. I mean, Alex Jones was a little scary. They got very serious about that. Like we did get doxxed I think I was telling you earlier that, like they went and barricaded our front door with Bibles, like broke into our house. It wasn't pleasant at the time. And we had like the proud boys threatening to murder us at a show. And back then we were starting out, it was 10 years ago, so we were still playing like these little bar bands, like shows like on the floor with no security. Just if someone wanted to stab us, they definitely could have. So.

[Trevor Noah]

But would that be a good thing for a Satanist? Is that like an act of devotion for a Satanist? Like, is your audience. Is that what an encore looks like?

[Twin Temple (William Temple and/or band member)]

If that's your kink, if you're into, you know, Stab play, I wasn't there last night.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay. Your music though, is what I love about it. It's very analog. It feels like a throwbot back. And the way you guys record it as well feels like it is. It's really important that the sound doesn't feel overproduced.

[Kaitlan Collins]

I know.

[Trevor Noah]

This latest album, you perform with like a 34 piece orchestra, is that right? Why is that important to you?

[Theo Baker]

Oof.

[Twin Temple (William Temple and/or band member)]

I mean, I think a lot of the productions we love, like Phil Spector, he was working with this arranger called Jack Nietzsche. They brought in all this beautiful, like orchestration, you know what I mean? At the time he was kind of calling it like symphonies for teenagers. And so it's always been something we really wanted to play with. We just didn't. You know, they're a little bit expensive. So we didn't exactly have the means to hire 36, six piece orchestra. But I think it was just a sonic thing we were wanting. Had been a goal for like.

[Twin Temple band member]

Yeah, been a long term goal for sure.

[Twin Temple (William Temple and/or band member)]

And also, I mean, when Shooter approached us to do this record, you know, he's like country royalty.

[Trevor Noah]

Shooter Jennings?

[Twin Temple band member]

Yeah, Shooter Jennings.

[Twin Temple (William Temple and/or band member)]

He's such a badass musician. And he very much does come from this, like, country history, which we love American music, including country. And so we kind of wanted to give it like a little bit of a contrapolitan, like, Nashville flavor. Because, I mean, I love like, you know, Roy Orbison and RCA and Patsy Cline and everything that like Owen Bradley and like they were doing down there in the South. And it really was kind of an answer to what was going on with like Motown and New York and Gold

[Twin Temple band member]

Star Studios and the Wrecking Crew in Hollywood.

[Twin Temple (William Temple and/or band member)]

And so we just kind of wanted to explore like that avenue of classic American music because it's something that we do, you know, feel really passionate about.

[Twin Temple band member]

It's a specific period as well. Like 1962 to about 1965 is when all this was happening. You know, you had Nashville with the A team at rca. Then you had Gold Star and Phil Spector and Jack Nietzsche, and then you have Motown. So it's all these things that we love. Just exploring the different kind of flavors

[Twin Temple (William Temple and/or band member)]

of them, if you will. It was really exciting. I mean, it felt like Christmas morning, like hearing the songs of the orchestra. I was just like. I was like crying. I was freaking out. It was beautiful.

[Trevor Noah]

Before I let you go, do you guys still commune with the dark lord? Do you talk to him very often?

[Kaitlan Collins]

Oh, hell yeah.

[Twin Temple band member]

Every day.

[Trevor Noah]

Let him know that his plan for America is going like gangbusters. Welcome back to the Daily Show. My guest tonight is an award winning investigative journalist and bestselling author of how to Rule the World, An Education and power at Stanford University. Please welcome Theo Baker. Theo, this is a very impressive book. I can't stop talking about this book. You're 22 years old.

[Theo Baker]

21.

[Trevor Noah]

You're 21 years old.

[Theo Baker]

I can drink at least.

[Trevor Noah]

You can drink. Oh, very good. Is that a proposition?

[Theo Baker]

You know, now that I'm out of college, it's not as attractive. I mean, you know.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. Now unless you're pushing back against something what is.

[Theo Baker]

Exactly. Exactly.

[Trevor Noah]

Right. You're 21 years old.

[Theo Baker]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

You wrote this book about your freshman year at Stanford. It's remarkable. You've described this as. As three books in one. Give us a breakdown of what those books are.

[Theo Baker]

Yeah, yeah. So I went to Stanford as a coder. Right. I thought I was going to be part of the whole milieu of the kids who are making the startups and changing the world and all that stuff.

[Jeff Hiller]

Yeah.

[Theo Baker]

And so this book is part this sort of insider cultural ethnography, this look at this really bizarre insider world that controls so much influence over our technology. It's part. That part of it is this investigative drama as I start looking into the research of the president of Stanford University, eventually leading not to spoil the outcome with his resignation. And then the third part of the book is sort of a Bildungsroman of sorts. Right. I, you know, thought I was gonna do UCs, got dragged into journalism. A lot of weird stuff happened along the way.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, yeah. You take down the president of Stanford in this thing when you.

[Theo Baker]

Weird stuff.

[Trevor Noah]

Weird stuff. I was doing very similar things when I was 18 as well. You know, we had a real active improv group at my college. It starts off, you don't go in Thinking you're gonna jump into journalism and then you write this story on the war on woke that was happening on campus. Talk to me a bit about that.

[Theo Baker]

Yeah. So I thought I would join the student newspaper on a lark. And the war on fun was my first big story. This is the crackdown on all facets of student life. Now, to host something at Stanford, right, you have to take a class and pass an exam to be able to apply three weeks in advance to the party Review committee, which is a great acronym for what it is the prc, which only meets once a week on Tuesdays to approve all student events. I really love that detail. On Tuesdays. Right. They only meet on Tuesdays. And the six university departments say, hey, are your few balloons going to cause too much of a fire risk? Of course, the end result of that is the sort of death of many of the casual social interactions that many people come to college expecting.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. I mean, when you were going to college, were you hoping for just a fun experience to kind of let your hair down and be a normal college kid?

[Twin Temple band member]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. Were you like, oh, now I need to take down bureaucracy and go after the man?

[Theo Baker]

Look, I mean, I was, you know, a nerd, obviously. I think, you know, I was the kind of kid who would like, like, I would like work on a machine learning model in high school and call that like a fun Friday night.

[Trevor Noah]

And, you know, that was me in college, but not high school.

[Theo Baker]

Yeah, I've learned something of the folly of my way. But it was really weird because it was my sort of first brush with the corporatization of the modern university. Right, that students actually, right, we're teenagers, we're going about the ordinary course of coming of age. But at Stanford, you're a commodity too. You're something to be monetized. And a huge amount of money can be made off of these promising 17 and 18 year olds.

[Trevor Noah]

It was shocking to read about it. I'm a father and thinking about college for my kid way down the line. And to hear about, like, you arrive at Stanford and essentially I. All these venture capitalists are throwing just gobs of money at the students. And there tend to be these small groups within the university that essentially are picking who is going to be the billionaires of tomorrow and not even tomorrow, like this is happening today. Right. Were you shocked by just how cutthroat it became and the money that was there?

[Mint Mobile Announcer]

Yeah.

[Theo Baker]

No, the money is outrageous and it's really just, it's bizarre because it's vested in the hands of teenagers like the kid who taught me how to shotgun a beer freshman year, the frat guy. Really bad influence. Not at all. No, he's a great guy, but he drops out and he starts a company and six months later it's valued at a billion dollars for this 15 person team of 20 year olds and, you know, all power to the guy. I hope he succeeds, but.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, he already has.

[Theo Baker]

Well, there you go. But it's amazing, right? For a certain cohort of students, those who are tapped on the shoulder and plucked from the crowd, those who are deemed the builders, not the wantopreneurs. Right? The people who are just doing it because they think they can. There are yacht parties, there are slush funds. And the newest new thing when I arrived at Stanford was something called pre idea funding.

[Trevor Noah]

This I want to know more about because I have no ideas and if I can monetize that, that would be perfect. What is pre idea funding?

[Theo Baker]

Pre idea funding is really what it sounds like. Even though it sounds absurd, it is exactly what these people are doing. They will say, hey, here's a one page or two page agreement, it's called a safe check and if you make a company with it, call us and we'll invest more. It doesn't give them a particular amount of equity in the company. It guarantees them the right to purchase more in the future. And if you don't end up creating the company with it or collapse, it never has to be paid back.

[Trevor Noah]

This is remarkable. There's so many themes in here. It makes me think a lot about AI and how much money is being spent on the possibility of something else, but nothing actually being made. And then this sort of dovetails with what you've discovered with Standard, Stanford's president at the time. When did you catch a whiff that something was awry?

[Theo Baker]

Yeah. So I was a few weeks into freshman year and had written a few stories for the school newspaper and I got wind of these anonymous posts that had taken place seven years earlier on this forum called PubPeer. This is where scientists dissect published research papers and they said, hey, there are some images in these papers that were co authored by Stanford's then president, Marc Tassey Levine, that because he was a neuroscientist, he is a famous neuroscientist and an extremely wealthy entrepreneur. This guy's worth hundreds of millions of dollars. And I discovered over the course of about eight months of investigative journalism, a pattern of falsified research that had emerged under his purview at different labs and that at various places as the eventual Stanford investigation concluded. When he was given the opportunity to correct the scientific record, he failed to decisively and forthrightly do so.

[Trevor Noah]

And we're talking about Alzheimer's research that as you're looking closer and closer, it just doesn't add up.

[Daily Show Host (likely Trevor Noah or correspondent)]

Right.

[Theo Baker]

So one of the big stories that I reported on was this famous study that had claimed to identify the cause of Alzheimer's disease. Right. So they're pumping this up at a shareholder meeting at the time. And this executive, Richard Scheller, calls it the greatest discovery made in Alzheimer's research in 20 years, maybe ever. Right. And as I discovered in my research, of course, that was not exactly what the paper ended up being.

[Trevor Noah]

Now you're doing research here, but you're a college student. You're calling around, checking sources, like, what is it like being a, a journalist, but a journalist for a college paper, trying to get people to talk to you. Does that make it easier in some ways because people are gracious to a college student or are you getting doors shut in your face all the time?

[Theo Baker]

I had more than a few doors slammed in my face. Absolutely. You know, it's a really weird thing to say, hey, I'm a 17 year old and then an 18 year old and you should trust me with your secrets, right? Like you should tell me these things that you sign NDAs not to tell people about. Maybe, you know, that you, you know, I'm someone that wants to listen and hear what is there. You know, it takes time to build credibility. But basically I think what I discovered, the main lesson I took away from freshman year is that like journalism more than anything else is a disposition. Right. And it's, I think you, you know, in your interviews are demonstrating that better than so many of US journalism.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, you misunderstand this completely. I thought you are showing your youth there, Theo. I thought you were sharper than that. But. Well, that's kind of you to say. It's curious. You come from, your parents are famous journalists. I'm curious what they thought about you going down this path.

[Theo Baker]

My parents are endlessly supportive. There is a reason that I wanted to go 3,000 miles away from home and study computer science. You know, it was really funny. So I came back at Thanksgiving and I said, hey, I've been working on this investigation into the present and I've been working with these forensic image analysts and there might be something there. And my dad is a lovely, lovely guy. And he said very intelligently, he said, this is a world renowned scientist and you're a 17 year old kid, maybe start with a professor. And I didn't listen then, but my parents have been super supportive and I'm lucky. I know he's not popular right now. I know journalism doesn't always get the great reputation that I might like, but it is a special thing to be a 17 year old and to feel as if you can ask questions of people in power and hopefully do some good for your community by doing so.

[Trevor Noah]

It's truly remarkable. I'm curious though. It really is, and I was a thing I very much enjoyed about in reading it is following you through the journalistic process. You know, so many books drop you in the middle. People have been doing this for so long and you're remarkably astute in doing it. But we sort of watch you find break and find your break stories and also find your footing as to how to tell these stories. All the while you are investigating the president of Stanford. Writing about the president of Stanford. You just graduated from Stanford.

[Theo Baker]

I did.

[Trevor Noah]

What is it like going to school at the place that you are investigating?

[Theo Baker]

It's weird, right? It's, you know, in some ways, right, I'm lucky. Like at Stanford there are students who are like actually famous, right? Like Eileen Goo is my classmate. I think when her birthday, her last birthday, they put her face up on all the billboards in Times Square. So I was more like a zoo animal, which is sort of. It's a weird position to be in. There are a lot of I's, especially because I didn't mean to be a journalist. I really like did not set out to be in this position.

[Trevor Noah]

Why didn't you just pick the acapella group, man? Right.

[Theo Baker]

I don't think I have the voice for it. I hate to say it, but look, it's also a really special thing to belong to a community that you care about. I've loved Stanford since I was 7 years old. That's when I fell in love with Stanford. And I think if you love a place, you want it to be better. And that was a lot of the reason why I stuck it out and why it was important for me to put out this book while I was still a student there. Not to do the thing where you leave and you dish on all the people you've just been friends with. It's like, no, this is what I've encountered, this is what my reporting shows and I think it's important to talk about it now.

[Trevor Noah]

You just graduated. I'm curious what is next? Is it grad school? I can't imagine any school would want you to come. Yeah.

[Theo Baker]

Branch and branches.

[Trevor Noah]

It's a little tough, I'm sure. Then what happens?

[Theo Baker]

I don't know. I don't know. I'm enjoying the ride while I'm on it and trying to hopefully start some conversations about, you know, this Faustian bargain that Stanford has made with Silicon Valley.

[Trevor Noah]

I love it. It's truly a remarkable book. I highly recommend it. How to Rule the World is available now. Theo Baker Explore more shows from the Daily show podcast universe by searching the Daily Show. Wherever you get your podcasts, watch the Daily show weeknights at 1110 Central on Comedy Central and stream full episodes anytime on Paramount.

[Commercial Announcer]

Plus,

[Trevor Noah]

this has been a Comedy Central podcast.

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