Trump Dodges Epstein by Attacking Obama, Dropping MLK Files & Trying To Change Coke | Rob Franklin

Summary

The Daily Show: Ears Edition – Episode Summary

Release Date: July 23, 2025
Episode Title: Trump Dodges Epstein by Attacking Obama, Dropping MLK Files & Trying To Change Coke | Rob Franklin
Host: Josh Johnson
Guest: Rob Franklin, Author of "Great Black Hope"

---

1. Introduction

In this episode of The Daily Show: Ears Edition, host Josh Johnson delves into the latest political maneuvers of former President Donald Trump as he attempts to divert attention from the controversial Epstein files. The episode is structured around Trump's various distraction tactics, including his attacks on Barack Obama, the contentious release of Martin Luther King Jr. (MLK) files, and his unusual move to alter the Coca-Cola recipe. The show also features a compelling interview with writer Rob Franklin, discussing his novel "Great Black Hope."

---

2. Trump's Tactics to Divert from Epstein Files

Josh Johnson opens the discussion by addressing Donald Trump's apparent desperation to move past the Epstein files. He highlights Trump's efforts to distract the media and public through various means.

• Attack on Obama: Johnson sarcastically notes Trump's continued focus on former President Obama, deeming it an outdated and ineffective distraction.

  Josh Johnson [04:45]: "Trump has been going after Obama for decades. He's not. He's gonna need something else. Something juicy."

• Health Updates: The host criticizes the White House's recent health announcement about Trump being diagnosed with chronic venous insufficiency, mocking the triviality and questionable relevance of the information.

  Josh Johnson [05:04]: "Doctors tell us it means there isn't adequate blood flow to the veins in the legs, which can cause swelling. Oh, no. Look at that ankle."

• Coca-Cola Recipe Change: Johnson ridicules Trump's claim of convincing Coca-Cola to switch to real cane sugar, viewing it as an insignificant and out-of-touch move.

  Josh Johnson [07:27]: "President Trump says he's convinced Coca Cola to change its recipe. This is so insulting."

---

3. Controversial Release of MLK Files

The episode takes a sharp turn as Josh discusses the Trump administration's release of over 230,000 pages related to MLK's assassination—a move perceived as a significant yet suspicious distraction.

• Grace Kuhlenschmidt's Claims: Host Josh engages with Grace Kuhlenschmidt from the Department of Justice, who presents seemingly fabricated MLK files, including a dubious audio recording.

  Grace Kuhlenschmidt [11:15]: "Like this secret audio recording of MLK on a vintage iPod mini from 1963."

  Josh quickly debunks these claims, questioning the authenticity of the files.

  Josh Johnson [12:25]: "It's not suspicious to you that all these secret files exonerate Trump from knowing Epstein?"

• Debunking the Fake Files: The conversation exposes the fabricated nature of the MLK files, highlighting inconsistencies and outright fabrications.

  Josh Johnson [13:00]: "MLK's letter from a Birmingham jail was never secret. We all read it in school."

  Grace Kuhlenschmidt [13:55]: "P.S. fun fact about jail. Lots of pedophiles kill themselves here. It's a totally normal thing that shouldn't be investigated."

  Josh concludes the segment by dismissing the credibility of the released files.

  Josh Johnson [14:03]: "Thank God Almighty Donald Trump has never met Jeffrey Epstein."

---

4. Charlemagne tha God's Perspective on Presidential Mental Health

In a candid segment, Charlemagne tha God enters the conversation, shifting focus to the mental and physical state of politicians, drawing parallels between Trump and President Joe Biden.

• Critique of Biden's Mental State: Charlemagne questions the ongoing investigations into Biden's cognitive abilities, suggesting that the media is fixated on his age rather than substantive issues.

  Charlemagne tha God [16:46]: "That Joe Biden was old... Members of the House Oversight Committee are looking into former President Biden's mental state and his use of the auto pen while in office."

• Comparison Between Trump and Biden: The discussion evolves into comparing the mental faculties of both leaders, with Charlemagne asserting that Trump's erratic behavior is more concerning.

  Charlemagne tha God [19:51]: "Donald, do you remember that you appointed Jerome Powell to be chairman of the Federal Reserve in 2018?"

• Dementia Symptoms Analysis: Charlemagne humorously evaluates Trump's behavior against dementia symptoms, emphasizing the President's volatile demeanor.

  Charlemagne tha God [20:20]: "Trump's Tariff policy is 5D chess, and all 5D's stand for dementia."

  Charlemagne tha God [21:06]: "Well, the bad news is Trump has rage issues. The good news is there's no way he's remembering the nuclear codes."

---

5. Interview with Rob Franklin on "Great Black Hope"

The highlight of the episode is an in-depth interview with Rob Franklin, the acclaimed author of "Great Black Hope." The conversation explores themes of race, class, privilege, and personal identity through Franklin's literary work.

• Discussion on Tall Privilege: Josh begins with light-hearted banter about Franklin's height as an entry point into deeper discussions about privilege.

  Josh Johnson [25:56]: "Do you feel it? Do you walk around with it? Are you aware of it?"

• Exploration of Smith’s Character: Franklin delves into his protagonist, Smith, a black queer man navigating the complexities of race and class within the criminal justice system.

  Rob Franklin [26:58]: "Smith is a black queer, 20-something... forced to contend with questions of race, class, privilege..."

• Impact of Respectability Politics: The author discusses how Smith's adherence to black respectability politics serves as both a shield and a source of internal conflict.

  Rob Franklin [31:12]: "Smith feels like he needs to present a certain way, speak a certain way... But that strict adherence becomes something that eats him from the inside out."

• Theme of Luck and Inequality: Franklin reflects on the role of luck in personal success and adversity, highlighting the inherent unfairness in societal structures.

  Rob Franklin [33:04]: "Smith is a character who has always benefited from a great deal of luck. Until recently, nothing really bad had ever really happened to him."

• Interpersonal Dynamics and Intimacy: The discussion touches on Smith's relationships, particularly with Carolyn, and how mutual understanding is hindered by their respective struggles with identity and pain.

  Rob Franklin [36:16]: "Smith is realizing that the desire to be in a contest of pain is ultimately at odds with true intimacy and showing love to people."

• Closing Interaction: High Five Moment: In a unique closing gesture, Josh and Franklin engage in a high-five, emphasizing Franklin's height and camaraderie.

  Josh Johnson [36:51]: "Rob Franklin, everyone. Check out the book 'Great Black Hope.' It's available now."

---

6. Conclusion

The episode wraps up with a humorous skit mocking Trump's promises to release the Epstein client list, underscoring public skepticism.

Josh Johnson [37:50]: "His allies promise their base. We are going to deliver the Epstein client list that's going to take down all of your democratic enemies. Well, yes. Bring it, Donald, please. Nobody gives a poop."

Final Takeaway:
This episode of The Daily Show: Ears Edition effectively combines sharp political satire with meaningful literary discussion, offering listeners both entertainment and thoughtful commentary on contemporary issues surrounding political distractions and the interplay of race and class in personal narratives.

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Josh Johnson [04:45]: "Trump has been going after Obama for decades. He's not. He's gonna need something else. Something juicy."
• Grace Kuhlenschmidt [11:15]: "Like this secret audio recording of MLK on a vintage iPod mini from 1963."
• Charlemagne tha God [16:46]: "That Joe Biden was old... Members of the House Oversight Committee are looking into former President Biden's mental state and his use of the auto pen while in office."
• Rob Franklin [26:58]: "Smith is a black queer, 20-something... forced to contend with questions of race, class, privilege..."
• Josh Johnson [37:50]: "His allies promise their base. We are going to deliver the Epstein client list that's going to take down all of your democratic enemies. Well, yes. Bring it, Donald, please. Nobody gives a poop."

---

For those interested in exploring more in-depth analyses and exclusive interviews, consider tuning into The Daily Show: Ears Edition available on ParamountShop.com with a discount code "TDS20" for 20% off all products.

Transcript

[Kristen Bell]

Hi, I'm Kristen Bell, and if you know my husband Dax, then you also know he loves shopping for a car. Selling a car, not so much.

[Dax Shepard]

We're really doing this, huh?

[Kristen Bell]

Thankfully, Carvana makes it easy. Answer a few questions, put in your van or license, and done. We sold ours in minutes this morning and they'll come pick it up and pay us this afternoon.

[Dax Shepard]

Bye bye, Truckee.

[Kristen Bell]

Of course, we kept the favorite.

[Dax Shepard]

Hello, other Truckee.

[Kristen Bell]

Sell your car with Carvana today. Terms and conditions apply. On WhatsApp, no one can see or hear your personal messages. Whether it's a voice call message or sending a password to WhatsApp, it's all just this. So whether you're sharing the streaming password in the family chat or trading those late night voice messages that could basically become a podcast, your personal messages stay between you, your friend and your family. No one else, not even us. WhatsApp message privately with everyone.

[Charlemagne tha God]

Not all meals are created equal. For instance, breakfast has a spicy egg McMuffin for a limited time, and lunch doesn't. McDonald's breakfast.

[Josh Johnson]

You're listening to Comedy Central.

[Charlemagne tha God]

From the most trusted journalists at Comedy.

[Josh Johnson]

Central, it's America's Only Sour.

[Charlemagne tha God]

This is the Daily show with your host, Josh Johnson.

[Josh Johnson]

Welcome to the Daily Show. I'm Josh Johnson. We've got so much to talk about tonight. Donald Trump is losing his mind and his hands, and he's inventing new ways to do makeup. Wrong. And he has a dream that one day he will not be judged by the content of the Epstein files. So let's get into the headlines. Let's kick things off with distractions. What it looks like when they're fed to the media and what it looks like when they don't work. Because right now, Donald Trump is desperate to move on from the Epstein files.

[Kristen Bell]

But.

[Josh Johnson]

But the story is only building a major development just in. The Department of Justice says it is.

[Rob Franklin]

Trying to set up a meeting with longtime Jeffrey Epstein associate Ghislaine Maxwell, who's in prison.

[Grace Kuhlenschmidt]

The Justice Department now putting out a.

[Josh Johnson]

New statement and saying, if Ghislaine Maxwell has information about anyone who has committed.

[Grace Kuhlenschmidt]

Crimes against victims, the FBI and the.

[Kristen Bell]

DOJ will hear what she has to say.

[Josh Johnson]

Wait, you haven't talked to Ghislaine Maxwell, Epstein's accomplice, the woman he's in the most pictures with, wouldn't she be your first witness? Also, also, stick with me here. How funny would it be if the FBI gets there and she's like, I'm finally ready to talk. I'm finally ready to tell you everything, but then at the last second, she grabs one of the agent's guns and takes herself out. The FBI would have to come out like, okay, okay, I know how this looks, but I swear, I swear, here's how much I want you to believe me. We did do the first one. Okay? We. We did run up on Epstein and, like, held him. I shook him a little bit. We. We didn't do this one. But while we wait to see if Ghislaine survives this interview. Trump. Trump has been doing everything that he can to keep those files under wraps. He's even got his friends in Congress trying to help Mike Johnson shut down the House just to avoid a vote on the release of the. Yeah. Do you understand that? They clear Congress out for the summer like they found a dookie in the pool. But trying to shut down the release of the files only makes them more interesting. So over the last week, Trump has been throwing every distraction he can at us. And I wanna go through some of them to show you how desperate he's getting. Let's start with his go to distraction. Obama.

[Ryan Reynolds]

The witch hunt that you should be talking about is they caught President Obama absolutely cold. They tried to steal the election. They tried to obfuscate the election. Irrefutable proof that Obama was sadatious.

[Josh Johnson]

No. Booze aside. Sedacious. It feels like he's mispronouncing a new black friend's name. Oh, I want you to meet my friend, Sedacious. Thanks. It's Sean. The problem with this distraction is that it's so old. Jeffrey Epstein wouldn't date it. All right? Trump has been going after Obama for decades. He's not. He's gonna need something else. Something juicy. The White House offering an unexpected health update on President Trump, revealing that he recently underwent a battery of tests and has now been diagnosed with chronic venous insufficiency. Doctors tell us it means there isn't adequate blood flow to the veins in the legs, which can cause swelling. Oh, no. Look at that ankle. When I said something juicy, I didn't mean a shoe should not give you a muffin top. And I cannot stress how big of a deal this is because they never admit that Trump has anything but impeccable health. Usually they bring out a doctor to be like, donald Trump has big muscles and a girthy ass dick. Medically speaking, he makes Hercules look like a pig with cancer. Like, I'm not exaggerating. His doctors once said that his blood pressure was astonishingly excellent. That's not even how blood Pressure works. Blood pressure is numbers. If you want to impress us, say 120 over 80. They made it sound like Trump could control his blood pressure like the settings on a fancy hose. His blood pressure is on, miss, but he can turn it up to cone or jet if he so chooses. But I get why they put this out. One, it's a good distraction. And two, people have been starting to notice that Trump looks, medically speaking, like shit.

[Dax Shepard]

After these images of President Trump started to draw attention. Apparent bruises on his hands, covered with.

[Josh Johnson]

Makeup, seen in February and this week. This week. The White House physician says it's consistent with minor soft tissue irritation from frequent handshaking and the use of aspirin. Well, problem solved. No one's gonna shake hands that look like that. Even that hand right there, you could tell that the thumb is like, ew, ew, ew, ew, ew, ew, ew, ew, ew, ew, ew, ew, ew, ew. Yo, yo, yo. But okay. Trump violating his own HIPAA rights didn't get people to move on from Epstein. So now he's getting snacks involved. President Trump says he's convinced Coca Cola to change its recipe. The President claims that the company has agreed to start using real cane sugar in Coke products. This is so insulting. Trump's treating Americans like a kid you can bribe with a treat. Allow me to demonstrate what Donald Trump is going for here. Mmm. I don't care about pedophilia anymore. Delicious. And if all that doesn't work for you, if you don't care about Coke or Trump's health, don't worry. He's got some true crime for you. This morning, the Trump administration releasing more than 230,000 pages of records related to the assassination of civil rights icon Martin Luther King Jr. That's how bad things are for Trump. His back is against the wall so hard, he's releasing more black history. But this might the worst distraction, because all he did was remind us that he can declassify thousands of secret files. And people noticed.

[Kristen Bell]

Bernice King, the daughter of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Posted this picture on social media with the caption that simply reads, now do the Epstein files.

[Josh Johnson]

Damn, that is cold. Do you know how much you have to screw up for Dr. King's family to go? No, no, we choose Viol. If Trump wants to distract us, all he has to do is keep his promises. If you ended the wars in Gaza and Ukraine, that'd be extremely distracting. If you put up affordable housing, Americans would be like, what Epstein fires. What Epstein files. I'm too distracted memorizing my new home address. If you want to think of it in terms you can understand, think of it like a bribe. Mr. President. You're the deal, guy. Make us a deal. We want to know what's in the Epstein files. But if you put some universal health care in your palm and hand it over. Epstein who? I ain't seen nothing. For more on Trump trying to get away from the Epstein Fleet files, let's go live to the Department of Justice with Grace Kuhlenschmidt. Grace, these MLK files are such a waste of time.

[Grace Kuhlenschmidt]

Yeah, nothing I do on this show is a waste of time, Josh, because I actually went through all of the MLK files, and there are some bombshells.

[Josh Johnson]

Let me stop you right there. Because last week, you said Pam Bondi gave you new Epstein files, And. And they were clearly doctored to make Trump look good, so. Are you sure these MLK files are real?

[Grace Kuhlenschmidt]

100%. Absolutely. They gave me real files this time. Like this secret audio recording of MLK on a vintage ipod mini from 1963.

[Josh Johnson]

I don't feel good about the way this is starting.

[Grace Kuhlenschmidt]

Just wait until you hear it. This is the first time it's ever been played publicly, and it will shock you.

[Josh Johnson]

Are all the plans set for tomorrow's march on Washington?

[Dax Shepard]

Yes, Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Day. Do you want me to invite Jeffrey Epstein to speak at it?

[Josh Johnson]

No. My good friend Donald Trump told me Epstein is a bad person. And I always listen to Donald Trump. President Trump is an inspiration to me. And there's nothing wrong with the way his hands and ankles look.

[Charlemagne tha God]

I mean.

[Grace Kuhlenschmidt]

Wow. Thank you. FBI. Sunlight truly is the best disinfectant.

[Josh Johnson]

Grace, there's so many things wrong with that recording.

[Grace Kuhlenschmidt]

Name six.

[Josh Johnson]

The timeline makes no sense. They didn't have ipods back then. That sounded like somebody doing an impression of Dr. King. He called Trump President Trump, and the other guy called him Martin Luther King Jr. Day.

[Grace Kuhlenschmidt]

Sounds to me like you don't really respect Dr. Day. But fine. If you don't believe that, take a look at this document Tulsi Gabbard gave me. It's a secret letter MLK wrote from a Birmingham jail.

[Josh Johnson]

No, no. MLK's letter from a Birmingham jail was never secret. We all read it in school.

[Grace Kuhlenschmidt]

Yeah, the front of it. But only Tulsi Gabbard had the brains to flip it over. And on the back, Dr. King wrote. P.S. fun fact about jail. Lots of pedophiles kill themselves here. It's a totally normal thing that shouldn't be investigated.

[Josh Johnson]

That was clearly made up. MLK never said the words fun fact.

[Grace Kuhlenschmidt]

Well, the FBI file says it was his signature catchphrase. So fun fact, you're wrong again.

[Josh Johnson]

It's not suspicious to you that all these secret files exonerate Trump from knowing Epstein?

[Grace Kuhlenschmidt]

That's why they're secret, Josh. Because the deep state has been out to get Trump and MLK was trying to expose their scheme. He said it in a secret video I found in the MLK files in a folder labeled Grace, look at this. Check it out.

[Charlemagne tha God]

Free at last, Free at last.

[Josh Johnson]

Thank God Almighty Donald Trump has never met Jeffrey Epstein. Grace, that's the most famous speech in the world. We all know he didn't say that.

[Grace Kuhlenschmidt]

Then why is this speech called fun fact? I have a dream.

[Josh Johnson]

We're never trusting you with documents again, Grace. Coolenschmitt, everyone. When we come back, Charlemagne tha God gives us his opinion. So don't go away.

[Dax Shepard]

Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. Now I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of.

[Rob Franklin]

Unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back.

[Dax Shepard]

So I thought it would be fun if we made $15 bills, but it turns out that's very illegal, so there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment.

[Kristen Bell]

Of $45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required new customer offer for first three months only. Speed slow after 35 gigabytes of network's busy taxes and fees extra. See mint mobile.com Summer's here. Bringing sunshine, road trips, beach days and sweat. Without the right underwear, things get uncomfortable fast. That's where Meundies comes in. Made with unbelievably soft, breathable micro modal fabric, Meundies helps you stay cool even when the temperature's not. From briefs to boxers, cheeky cuts to bralettes, Meundies has it all. To score sizzling summer deals like up to 50% off, go to Meundies.com Spotify and enter promo code Spotify. This episode is brought to you by Greenlight. Get this. Adults with financial literacy skills have 82% more wealth than those who don't. From swimming lessons to piano classes, us parents invest in so many things to enrich our kids lives. But are we investing in their future financial success? With Greenlight, you can teach your kids financial literacy skills like earning, saving and investing. And this investment costs less than that. After school treatment, start prioritizing their financial education and Future today with a risk free [e-mail] Spotify greenlight.com Spotify.

[Josh Johnson]

Welcome back to the Daily Show. We all know I've got great opinions, but I'm not the only one. Studies show that other people also have opinions. So here with another installment of. In my opinion is our good friend Charlemagne, the God.

[Charlemagne tha God]

Hey, peace, Peace. What's happening, folks? Now, tonight I'm here to talk about the biggest story in the country right now. The investigation into how an elite cabal of the wealthy and powerful kept a dark secret from the American public. A secret involving the President himself. And I think we all know what I'm talking about. That Joe Biden was old.

[Josh Johnson]

Members of the House Oversight Committee are looking into former President Biden's mental state and his use of the auto pen while in office.

[Ryan Reynolds]

That's the scandal they should be talking about, not Jeffrey Epstein. The scandal you should be talking about is the auto pen. Because I think it's the biggest scandal, one of them in American history.

[Charlemagne tha God]

The biggest scandal in American history. It's like if Watergate, Iran Contra, while the Fyre Festival watched from the corner. Like, do you really need to investigate whether Joe Biden was old? The man had permanent I'm ready, Lord face. I think there should be age limits on everything. Political office being on twitch driving, okay? People are like, well, I'm 86 and I still drive fine. No, you don't. Okay? The only road your ass should be driving on is the highway to heaven, all right? And the good news is, if you're a journalist who feels bad that you didn't call out a seno, a senile, necrotizing head of state when you had the chance, well, guess what? You've got another chance.

[Ryan Reynolds]

You entered the playoffs battered and bruised, but not broken. When you ran out the healthy arms, you ran out of really healthy. They had great arms, but they ran out. It's called sports. It's called baseball in particular. And pictures, I guess you could say, in really particular.

[Charlemagne tha God]

Lord have mercy. The only thing. The only thing more confusing and erratic than a Trump speech is my TikTok for you page, okay? My Labubu Benson Boone backflipped into my matcha, and now I'm covered in Dubai chocolate. Please, China, just show me butts like I asked for, okay? But is Trump really losing it as badly as Biden? Hmm? Hmm? Let's run through this official list, okay? Of dementia symptoms from the Mayo Clinic. All right? Now, first, I wanna say that doctors warn it's unethical to diagnose someone you haven't actually examined. But I'm not a doctor. Okay, so let's go. All right, symptom number one, memory loss. As in. Donald, do you remember that you appointed Jerome Powell to be chairman of the Federal Reserve in 2018?

[Ryan Reynolds]

I was surprised he was appointed. I was surprised, frankly, that Biden put him in.

[Josh Johnson]

Memory loss.

[Charlemagne tha God]

Check. Okay, he's stealing Biden's whole flow. Word for word, bar for bar. Okay, I bet Biden's somewhere watching this, thinking, where am I? Okay, um, yeah, uh, next symptom. Problems with communication and finding the correct.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Word as a linguist, translator, and cryptologic technician.

[Charlemagne tha God]

Check. Okay, either his brain is malfunctioning or he was getting head beneath the podium. All right, somebody check and see if Mike Johnson's under there. Okay. All right, what we got next? Confusion and disorientation.

[Josh Johnson]

Mr. President, do the tariff rates change.

[Kristen Bell]

At all on July 9, or do.

[Josh Johnson]

They change on August 1?

[Ryan Reynolds]

What are you talking about?

[Charlemagne tha God]

Check. Don't you get it? Trump's Tariff policy is 5D chess, and all 5D's stand for dementia. Okay, let's see how Donald does with coordination and movement control. I don't get why Trump chose YMCA as his signature song. That dance involves coordination and spelling at the same time. Are you trying to kill this man? Another prominent symptom of dementia is agitation. Let's see the cool head of our president.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Do I have 100%? It's a stupid question. I think your question is so stupid. Don't ever say what you said. That's a nasty question. Scum. They're bad people.

[Josh Johnson]

They're sick.

[Ryan Reynolds]

You are a real. You know, you're a terrible reporter. You ought to be ashamed of yourself. You know, you are so bad. You're such a bad reporter. Ugh.

[Charlemagne tha God]

Okay, well, the bad news is Trump has rage issues. The good news is there's no way he's remembering the nuclear codes. Okay, now that's my whole checklist. And I've reached my diagnosis. This guy needs to be put into a retirement home immediately. Okay. Yes, yes, and hopefully it's one run by Andrew Cuomo. All right? But maybe the best evidence that Trump is unfit to serve is that his defenders are denying it in the same way that Biden's people did, and I mean the exact, exact same way.

[Josh Johnson]

Joe Biden is sharp as a tack. President Trump is sharp as a tack.

[Dax Shepard]

The president is absolutely sharp. Fit on top of his game.

[Josh Johnson]

President Trump is in top shape.

[Rob Franklin]

He's at the top of his game. He puts many of us to shame with his energy.

[Josh Johnson]

President Trump has shocked the world with his energy.

[Grace Kuhlenschmidt]

It is hard for us to keep.

[Josh Johnson]

Up with this president who is constantly, constantly working every day.

[Kristen Bell]

Hard to keep up with him.

[Josh Johnson]

He is a machine working around the.

[Kristen Bell]

Clock every single day.

[Charlemagne tha God]

This. This is why I hate Hollywood. Everything gets rebooted way too soon. Okay, Republicans were quick to call out Biden's brain when it was falling off the bone like a nice piece of barbecue. But now that it's happening to Trump mums the word, which honestly, I get. Okay, political parties protect their own, but the media is also making the same mistakes it did during the Biden years. We need journalists to speak truth to power because right now our government is like an 86 year old driving a car and we're all in the passenger seat. But hey, that's just my opinion.

[Josh Johnson]

Charlamagne the Guide Everyone, when we come back, Rob Flanker will be joining me on the show.

[Charlemagne tha God]

So don't go away.

[Dax Shepard]

This episode is brought to you by Pluto tv. Summer of cinema is here and Pluto TV is exploding with thousands of free movies. Feel the explosive action all summer long with movies like Gladiator, Beverly Hills Cop, Impossible, Ghost Protocol, Good Burger, Stealth, Four Brothers and Star Trek. Bring the action with you and stream for free on all your favorite devices. Pluto TV Stream now, pay never. Stream now at Pluto TV. This episode is brought to you by LifeLock. Between two factor authentication, strong passwords and a VPN, you try to be in control of how your info is protected. But many other places also have it and they might not be as careful. That's why Lifelock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second for threats. If your identity is stolen, they'll fix it, guaranteed or your money back. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit lifelock.com podcast for 40% off terms apply.

[Charlemagne tha God]

This episode is brought to you by Liquid iv. In heart pumping moments, you need hydration that can keep up. That's where Liquid IV comes in. Scientifically formulated to quickly replenish electrolytes and fluids lost from your well earned sweat session.

[Josh Johnson]

Hydrate your favorite mode of movement with Liquid iv. Made with triple the electrolytes of the.

[Charlemagne tha God]

Leading sports drink, plus eight vitamins and nutrients also available and sugar free tear pour live more. Visit liquidiv.com to learn more.

[Josh Johnson]

Welcome back to the Daily Show. My guest tonight is a writer of fiction and poetry whose critically acclaimed debut novel is called Great Black Hope. Please welcome Rob Franklin. Wow. Okay, first of all, thank you so much for being here.

[Rob Franklin]

Thank you for having Me?

[Josh Johnson]

Yeah, I. I got to meet you briefly backstage, and, you know, this is our first time meeting, and I noticed immediately that you're a good dresser. You know what I mean? I already knew you're a great writer. You've got the book here and everything. I imagine you have a little money from writing such great books and stuff. And the other thing is that you're tall. So what I really want to talk to you about tonight was tall privilege.

[Rob Franklin]

Yes.

[Josh Johnson]

Okay. Do you feel it? Do you walk around with it? Are you aware of it?

[Rob Franklin]

You know, I do think I'm aware of it. I mean, I always think, you know, you're truly tall when you don't. I don't know my exact height. Like, down to what kind of half inch?

[Josh Johnson]

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[Rob Franklin]

I'm like, I'm in the neighborhood. Six two, six, three.

[Josh Johnson]

In the neighborhood. This is like when people with money are like, guys, money's not real. It's like Mr. Top Shelf doesn't know how tall he is. It's wild. You talk about such specific topics in the book in a really touching and creative way because you talk about class, you talk about privilege, you talk about race, you talk about so many different things at once. And so I would love for you to also talk to us about Smith, your protagonist, and the sort of world that he's living in and how he navigates through all these different spaces.

[Rob Franklin]

Yeah, absolutely. So when Great Black Hope opens, we meet Smith, who's a black queer, 20 something. And in the opening scene, he's arrested on the last night of a sweltering summer for cocaine possession in the Hamptons, and then sort of through the court system, funneled into for profit recovery. And so in that recovery program, he's kind of forced to contend with questions of race, class, privilege, as well as his kind of ongoing grief in the aftermath of his best friend's death.

[Josh Johnson]

Yeah. And when you. When you look at a character who is queer, black, and rich, those three different things don't usually seem like they go together to people who are, like, on the outside. So one or two of them mess up the idea of the person for the other ones, if that makes sense. And so have you seen in life that there are people who have that thing? Exactly where it's like one identity kind of like derails everyone's expectations from the other two or three or four?

[Rob Franklin]

Yeah, I was really interested in this question of, like, how in the sort of court system, Smith's class privilege protects him or insulates him, but his race does not. And so this kind of tension between his race and class identities is really at kind of the heart of the novel. And I mean, I definitely think that that's something I've kind of observed in my own life and like, wanted to bring into the book is like, you know, when you begin the novel not having kind of a lot of backstory on Smith, you know, we see a black man who's arrested in the Hamptons, and people may have certain expectations about where this story is going to go based on all of the kind of like, cultural detritus and like history and images that we have of black men ensnared in the criminal justice system. But then it becomes more complicated as we discover the sort of extent of his class privilege.

[Josh Johnson]

And one thing that I've wondered, because it's a narrative that we've been getting shifted toward for a very long time, like pretty much since Obama, is that now things aren't about race anymore, they're more about class. And so what, in your experience, and you can also, you know, speak to the experiences of Smith in the book, what is it about one outweighing the other? Is it situational or is it, for some people, one completely dictating how you're treated in spite of the other?

[Rob Franklin]

Yeah, I mean, I think it so depends on the context. Like, I think in the book, when Smith is entering a room, often, you know, his race privilege is what people are kind of consuming about him first. Like that's external. And a lot of expectations and kind of projections are being placed upon him, you know, in 12 step meetings or in kind of the for profit group recovery that he's, he's court mandated into. And discovering the sort of like, complexity of his identity requires actually talking to him. And so a lot of in the book, a lot of his queerness, a lot of his class background, and the sort of like black respectability politics of his family are kind of apparent to the reader, are explored, you know, in Smith's interiority, but aren't always evident to the people he's encountering.

[Josh Johnson]

And do you think that whether it informed how you wrote the book or it's just in your everyday life that your understanding of respectability politics plays into how you move in different circles? Because it's one thing to not know, it's one thing to really genuinely believe, like, oh, if I do everything right, everyone will like me. Instead of the fact that a person's inability to do everything right all the time will be the excuse for people who don't like you to continue not liking you.

[Rob Franklin]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Josh Johnson]

Do you think that when you look at Smith, who I imagine you're using some of your own experiences to inform his journey, do you think that there's a sort of awakening from respectability politics, or do you think that in order to succeed, you have to play that game a little bit?

[Rob Franklin]

Yeah, I mean, I think that Smith is a character who has almost. Who has really internalized the lessons of kind of the southern black bourgeoisie world that he grew up in, specifically as regards kind of black respected politics. He feels like he needs to present a certain way, speak a certain way, dress a certain way, and that's kind of his passport into certain rooms and, like, a kind of proximity to whiteness. But what I really wanted to explore was how that kind of strict adherence to black respectability politics for Smith becomes something that, like, eats him from the inside out. You know, it's a kind of impossible, that constant performance that he feels like he has to endure. Yeah. And so you're seeing how it's taking this kind of taxing mental toll on Smith throughout, and also how, at the end of the day, it doesn't actually protect him. If he's gonna be profiled by a couple of plainclothes police officers, that's gonna happen regardless of how he's dressed.

[Josh Johnson]

Gotcha. And there's a lot of identity in the. In the book, and there are these structures that are built around sometimes immutable characteristics and everything. But I think that one thing that really interested me through the book and through the aspects of your life that you put into the book is how much do you factor luck in? Because there are people across every socioeconomic imaginable situation that are of different races. Like, there's just the boxing in of people. Even as we get better at categorizing people's experiences, doesn't actually break up the fact that there's some luck, there's some unfairness. All these other things are at play. How much do you factor in luck when you think about these characters?

[Rob Franklin]

Yeah, that's such an interesting question. I mean, I think that Smith is a character who, you know, has always benefited from a great deal of luck. At one point in the book, he basically, in a 12 step meeting, says, like, until recently, nothing really bad had ever really happened to him.

[Josh Johnson]

That's a great thing to say at 12 step.

[Rob Franklin]

Yeah. No one wants to hear that.

[Josh Johnson]

That's wild.

[Rob Franklin]

And indeed, no one responds very well to that.

[Josh Johnson]

Yeah. I mean, it's almost like telling a guy who's not 6 foot that you don't know how tall you are. You know what I mean? It's like, you know, it's rough out. But yeah, I'm just so interested in that because in this 12 step meeting he is expressing and coming from a genuine expression too. It's not like he's bragging. Nothing bad has ever really happened to me. And so one thing that I've been really interested in, that I think the book does a great job of also like illustrating, is that everyone's load is theirs to carry. The hardest life you're gonna have to live is your own. And so there are people who have never been through this, this and this, even if they belong to your group, right. And so whatever they're going through, as easy as it may seem for you, is very hard for them because they aren't used to the load, you know. And I'm wondering from your perspective with the book, the people that, I don't want to say get left behind, but like the people that are lost in a way. If you think that, if you think that socially the idea of the bad things that happened to him, finally, if we're ever gonna reach a level of understanding where that will be enough for the people who he is now with. Do you know what I mean? Like. Like, if there's a world where he's. He is in that 12 step meeting and he's like, if he's able to express it correctly, sure, this is the first bad thing that's ever happened to me. But you guys have to understand that this is like huge for me. Not just cause it's the first bad thing, but because like, imagine if you've never been punched in the face before. This is my first punch, you know. Is that what you were intending when you had that section in there?

[Charlemagne tha God]

Yeah.

[Rob Franklin]

I mean, I almost think that a way to kind of explore that topic is through Smith's relationship with his main friend Carolyn, who is a kind of wealthy white woman who's also in recovery in the novel. And I think in their dynamic, oftentimes he feels almost a kind of like moral high ground. Being like, you know, this is how things are for me. That sort of erases her lived reality of recovery and also her kind of sense of like isolation and alienation at being perceived in this way by the person closest to her. And I think in a way, like what he is doing to Carolyn is what is also being done to him by other people. For instance, in that 12 step meeting. You know, the kind of desire to be in a contest of pain is ultimately at odds with, like, true intimacy and showing love to people. And I think that that's something that Smith is realizing over the course of the novel.

[Josh Johnson]

I think that's very well said, and it's probably why you're such a great writer. I appreciate you so much being here. You know, this is my first time doing the show and everything, and I'm trying to do things a little differently. So I'd like to wrap up a little different than we normally do. Normally, you know, I, like, shake your hand and get everybody to, you know, get excited. I hold up the book. I want to do it a different way, if that's cool with you.

[Rob Franklin]

Let's do that.

[Josh Johnson]

Okay. You're very tall, and I would love if we could end this interview with a high five. Is that cool with you? Yes.

[Rob Franklin]

Let's get into it.

[Josh Johnson]

Okay.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Okay.

[Josh Johnson]

Okay, now. Now I want you to stick your hand up in the air. But I. Yeah, but I want you to reach up. Don't go easy on me. I want you to go really high. Okay.

[Kristen Bell]

All right.

[Josh Johnson]

All right. Let me get ready. All right, Rob Franklin, everyone. Check out the book Great Black Hope. It's available now. We're gonna take a break. We'll be right back. Thank you so much. That's our show for tonight. Now here it is, your moment of zing. His allies promise their base. We are going to deliver the Epstein client list that's going to take down all of your democratic enemies. Well, yes. Bring it, Donald, please. Nobody gives a poop.

[Kristen Bell]

You don't give a poop.

[Josh Johnson]

Explore more shows from the Daily show podcast universe by searching the Daily Show.

[Charlemagne tha God]

Wherever you get your podcasts, watch the.

[Josh Johnson]

Daily show weeknights at 1110 Central on Comedy Central and stream full episodes anytime on Paramount. Plus, this has been a Comedy Central podcast.