Trump Extorts DOJ for $230M While Gov’t Workers Scramble to Make Ends Meet | Ryan Holiday

Summary

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The Daily Show: Ears Edition

Episode Title: Trump Extorts DOJ for $230M While Gov’t Workers Scramble to Make Ends Meet | Ryan Holiday
Date: October 23, 2025
Host: Michael Kosta
Notable Guests: Ryan Holiday, Troy Iwata, Lewis Black

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Episode Overview

This episode is split between two main themes:

1. Extensive Satirical Coverage of the Government Shutdown and Trump’s DOJ Payout Attempt: The show opens with Michael Kosta and The Daily Show team lampooning the ongoing government shutdown, the plight of underpaid federal workers, and Donald Trump’s outrageous (and possibly corrupt) demand for a $230 million payout from the Justice Department, which is staffed by his former personal lawyers.
2. Interview with Ryan Holiday: Best-selling author Ryan Holiday joins Kosta to discuss his new book "Wisdom Takes Work," the practical applications of Stoic philosophy in everyday life, and how to cultivate wisdom, discipline, and resilience amid modern chaos.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Government Shutdown: Absurdity and Consequences

• Federal Employees Working Without Pay (01:01–03:36):
  • Satirical thanks to unpaid workers, including TSA, air traffic controllers, and “brave guards who keep the Epstein files from being released.”
  • “America’s nuclear weapons are now unguarded. That may sound dangerous, but don’t be nervous. The nukes have AirTags on them.” – Michael Kosta [02:49]
• Gig Economy Solutions:
  • Federal workers taking Uber & DoorDash jobs just to pay bills:
    • “On one hand, you don’t want air traffic controllers staying up all night working a second job. On the other hand, the sky is like really big, you know, and the planes probably won’t bump into each other.” – Michael Kosta [03:36]

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2. Trump’s $230 Million DOJ Extortion (04:27–07:30)

• Corruption Unveiled:
  • Trump seeks $230M from the DOJ as supposed compensation for investigations into his alleged crimes.
  • “I know it’s not exactly what black people wanted, but the American government is finally paying reparations, and, well, it is to an old white billionaire president.” – Michael Kosta [04:38]
  • The officials set to approve Trump’s payout are his own former lawyers.
  • “Let me spell this out for you: Trump’s own former lawyers are the ones who get to decide if Trump gets this giant payout from the government that Trump is in charge of.” – Michael Kosta [05:34]
• Ethics and Satire:
  • “One ethics professor telling the New York Times, ‘the ethical conflict is just so basic and fundamental, you don’t need a law professor to explain it.’” – Announcer [07:21]
  • “This isn’t a law professor question. This is more of an Elmo question. He understands how fucked up this is, and he can’t even read.” – Michael Kosta [07:30]
• Trump's Charitable Promises:
  • Trump promises to give the payout to charity, but Kosta notes: “Well, joke’s on you because that charity was dissolved by court order in 2018 after misusing money for his personal benefit. I bet you feel like an asshole now.” [08:10]

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3. Grifting as Presidential Policy: Live “Report” from the White House (09:26–11:54)

• Troy Iwata’s Satirical Segment:
  • “Trump is achieving an unprecedented level of corruption, and we here at are just getting started.” – Troy Iwata [09:26]
  • Welding scientific parody and political satire, the “White House Laboratorium for Grifting” is introduced as an ongoing research initiative for new corrupt schemes.
  • “It’s not about the money, you rube. It’s about the science.” – Troy Iwata [11:01]
  • “Soon, President Trump will touch the very face of God and sell God essential oils that God can resell to his neighbors. He’ll finally be his own boss.” [11:01]
  • Concludes with recursive lawsuit gag: “Donald Trump sues himself for the emotional distress caused by getting sued by himself, which will trigger an infinite loop.” [11:23]
  • “I’m so horny and scared.” – Troy Iwata [11:46]

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4. "Back In Black": The American Protein Craze (13:04–19:47)

• Lewis Black on Protein Fads:
  • Ridicules the explosion of protein-enhanced foods (PopTarts, Doritos, Starbucks cold foam).
  • “Do you people really think you can get healthy by eating protein Doritos? Well, sure they have protein, but they’re also Doritos. How much more unhealthy can you get?” [13:45]
  • Mocks extreme fitness influencers: “The fastest way to get protein. Why is time an issue? You’re shirtless in your apartment, drinking a gallon of milk. It doesn’t seem like you have to be anywhere.” [16:38]
  • Notes health concerns over too much protein, especially “carnivore babies.”
  • Closes with signature crass plug: “So that’s why I’m introducing new Lewis Black protein enemas. Now in Cool Ranch flavor. Stick it up your ass, Michael.” [19:38]

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5. Interview: Ryan Holiday on Practical Stoicism (21:08–35:42)

Applying Stoicism to Modern Life

• Philosophy in Parenting:
  • Michael Kosta shares personal parenting frustration: “You know what? Fuck you, Ryan Holiday, because it’s easy when I’m reading it, but in action it can be trickier.” [22:07]
  • Holiday: “Nothing tests your stoicism quite like having little kids... It’s not supposed to be this abstract theoretical thing that you do on college campuses. You do it when your kid wakes up in the middle of the night.” [22:14]
  • Shares own parent anecdote about children misapplying stoic wisdom [22:32]
• Eternal Relevance of Stoicism:
  • “Although they wore togas and sometimes had names that we can’t pronounce, they were dealing with the same problems that we are and always will be dealing with, you know, annoying and obnoxious people.” [23:41]
• On Virtues:
  • On the four Stoic virtues (Courage, Discipline, Justice, Wisdom): “They’re all inseparable. They’re distinct, yet inseparable from each other… But I think it is very hard to be a stupid person in the world. Right. No one has it harder than the unwise person.” [24:57–25:38]
• Schooling vs. Education:
  • “You can have all the degrees in the world and not be a particularly wise or intelligent person. At the same time, you can skip school... provided that you go and make yourself a student of wise people and the collective wisdom of humanity.” [26:47]
• Learning From Experience:
  • Explains being a “disciple of experience”: real wisdom comes from a cycle of “learn, apply, repeat.” [27:37]
  • “If you believe you’ve arrived at wisdom, you probably don’t have it.” – Michael Kosta [28:25]; “Yes.” – Ryan Holiday [28:28]
• Men and Modern Influencers:
  • Kosta: “It’s hard for me to connect... I don’t feel like those are the men I want to be.”
  • Holiday: “I feel like I’m one of the few male influencer types that did not become radicalized or redpilled. So, like, stoicism is not supposed to make you a better sociopath or a bigger asshole.” [29:19]
  • On Elon Musk: “That is what is so scary about it, that you could be so brilliant, so gifted, so informed… And then social media can still break your brain. And it did.” [30:10]
  • “It’s impossible to learn that which you think you already know.” [30:57]
• On Humility and Learning:
  • Story of Socrates and the Oracle: “…from that curiosity and from that humility, it becomes possible to learn. Like the thing about being a know-it-all is… it becomes impossible for you to know anything more than you currently know.” [31:25]
• How to Instill Stoicism in Children:
  • “You’re not gonna teach them stoicism unless you’re modeling stoicism.” – Holiday [32:51]
  • “You and I are not president… but we control how we act.” [33:21]
  • “Our kids are people... Think about multi-generational impact. Well, there it is at your house. And you’re neglecting it to yell at someone on social media.” [34:15]
• On Abraham Lincoln as a Stoic Model:
  • “He’s the complete man that embodies all of these virtues… How do you leave this place better than you found it?” [34:29]
  • On research: “I thought I’d read enough about Lincoln and there was about another 5,000 pages left for me to read. But that’s what books are, is the distillation of other books and other people’s experiences.” [35:13]

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• Michael Kosta, on nuclear security:
  “America’s nuclear weapons are now unguarded. That may sound dangerous, but don’t be nervous. The nukes have AirTags on them.” [02:49]
• Michael Kosta, on Trump’s payout:
  “Let me spell this out for you: Trump’s own former lawyers are the ones who get to decide if Trump gets this giant payout from the government that Trump is in charge of.” [05:34]
• Troy Iwata, on presidential grifting:
  “It’s not about the money, you rube. It’s about the science and pushing the boundaries of what grifts humankind thought was possible.” [11:01]
• Lewis Black, on the protein craze:
  “Do you people really think you can get healthy by eating protein Doritos? Well, sure they have protein, but they’re also Doritos.” [13:45]
  • “I’m always ready for sports. I’m wearing a jockstrap right now. Otherwise I’d be tucking my balls into my sock.” [15:42]
• Ryan Holiday, on practical Stoicism:
  “It’s not supposed to be this abstract theoretical thing... you do it when your kid wakes up in the middle of the night. You do it when your kid is sick. And your mind is immediately extrapolating that this is the worst thing that could ever happen.” [22:14]
• Ryan Holiday, on wisdom:
  “Life is a thinking person’s game, and it will eat you up and tear you apart if you don’t have the ability to make sense of things, to discern.” [25:38]
• Ryan Holiday, on humility:
  “The Socratic method is him walking around Athens asking questions, not lecturing them on what he knows. He’s genuinely curious. And from that curiosity and from that humility, it becomes possible to learn.” [31:25]
• Ryan Holiday, on teaching kids:
  “You’re not gonna teach them stoicism unless you’re modeling stoicism.” [32:51]
• Ryan Holiday, on parenting’s importance:
  “Think about multi-generational impact. Well, there it is at your house. And you’re neglecting it to yell at someone on social media.” [34:15]

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Important Timestamps

• 01:01 – Show opens: shutdown jokes, plight of federal workers
• 02:49 – Nuclear weapons unguarded joke
• 03:36 – Federal workers taking side gigs
• 04:27 – Trump’s demand for a $230M DOJ payout
• 05:34 – Trump’s own lawyers in charge of decision
• 07:21 – Ethics expert, “You don’t need a law professor...”
• 09:26 – Troy Iwata: “White House Laboratorium for Grifting”
• 13:04 – Lewis Black “Back in Black”: protein craze segment begins
• 17:15 – Effects of too much protein discussed
• 18:20 – “Carnivore babies” and health risks
• 19:38 – Lewis Black’s protein enemas “ad”
• 21:08 – Interview with Ryan Holiday begins
• 22:14 – Holiday: Stoicism and parenting
• 24:57 – Holiday: The four virtues, wisdom’s central role
• 26:47 – Schooling vs. education
• 29:19 – Cultural critique; stoicism vs. “redpill” radicalization
• 30:57 – “It’s impossible to learn that which you think you already know.”
• 32:51 – Teaching Stoicism to children via example
• 34:29 – Why Abraham Lincoln matters
• 35:42 – Interview closes

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Conclusion

This episode delivers classic Daily Show satire, lampooning the government shutdown and Trump’s overt maneuvering for a personal payout, juxtaposed with a thoughtful exploration of Stoic philosophy’s relevance for turbulent modern life via guest Ryan Holiday. The comedic news segments skewer political corruption and societal trends, while the interview provides actionable wisdom on cultivating resilience, humility, and meaning.

Listen for:

• Deadpan dissection of systemic government dysfunction.
• Riotous satire on American diet trends.
• Philosophical deep-dives made practical for modern parenting and politics.

Essential Takeaway:
“The Socratic method is… asking questions, not lecturing them on what he knows. He’s genuinely curious. And from that curiosity and from that humility, it becomes possible to learn.” – Ryan Holiday [31:25]

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Transcript

[Announcer]

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[Michael Kosta]

You're listening to Comedy Central. From the most trusted journalists at Comedy Central, it's America's only source for news. This is the Daily show with your host, Michael Costa. What's up, everybody? Welcome to the Daily Show. I'm Michael Kosta. We've got so much to talk about tonight. Trump cuts himself a bonus check. Lewis Black gets jacked. And we'll tell you why. Your doordash order just got rerouted to Newark. But first, let's kick things off with our ongoing coverage of shutdown showdown. 2025 down. Locked up, locked down and closed for business. The shutdown has lasted for over three weeks now, which you may not have ever noticed because they keep forcing federal employees to come back into work without pay. People like TSA screeners, veterans, doctors, and most importantly, the brave guards who keep the Epstein files from being released. Thank you, heroes. But other federal workers have been furloughed, which means they don't go to work at all. These jobs are less essential and we probably won't even notice they're gone. And remind me, which kind of jobs are furloughed?

[Announcer]

Roughly 1,400 employees of the National Nuclear Security Administration, which safeguards the country's nuclear stockpile. Now on unpaid leave, only 400 workers remain on the job.

[Michael Kosta]

Great. America's nuclear weapons are now unguarded. That may sound dangerous, but don't be nervous. The nukes have airtags on them, so it's also just to be safe, they put up a sign outside the nuclear stockpile, so no one's gonna go in there. And for those folks and for those folks who do have to work without pay, well, they have to get creative to pay the bills. The shutdown is also putting a strain on the people who make sure we.

[Ryan Holiday]

Get to our destination safely. Air traffic controllers have been working without.

[Michael Kosta]

Pay since October 1st.

[Announcer]

Some TSA officers and Air traffic controllers are even taking Uber and doordash jobs just to make ends meet.

[Michael Kosta]

Okay, that's not ideal. On one hand, you don't want air traffic controllers staying up all night working a second job. But on the other hand, the sky is like really big, you know, and the planes probably won't bump into each other. What's the worst that could happen? A lost plane crashes into our unguarded nuclear weapons? I mean, it's not that bad. But look, I hate that this is happening. I don't want to get into an Uber and feel bad when my driver tells me he's an out of work air traffic controller. I want to get in an Uber and feel bad when my driver tells me he was an oncologist in Armenia. But if seeing all these hard working people getting screwed over is hurting your little feelings, don't worry. There is one federal employee who. Who do be gettin dat Monet.

[Announcer]

This morning, sources tell ABC News that President Trump is pushing for a personal $230 million payout from the Justice Department as compensation for the federal investigations he's faced.

[Michael Kosta]

He is demanding $230 million because he faced special counsel investigations over his campaign's contacts with Russia and his removal of classified documents from the White House to his home in mar a lago. $230 million. And look, I know it's not exactly what black people wanted, but the American government is finally paying reparations, and, well, it is to an old white billionaire president. But that's why you need to be more specific when you're manifesting. Of course, a lawsuit isn't anything new. Trump sues people more often than Barron gets hit by a seagull. That kid is huge. So I don't mean to sound like your nephew at the Seder, but why is that this lawsuit different from the other lawsuits?

[Announcer]

The Justice Department officials who would likely sign off on the payment were once President Trump's own personal lawyers, Attorney General Pam Bondi and her deputy, Todd Blanche.

[Michael Kosta]

Now, now, now, now, now, now. I'm sure Todd Blanche will take his time and very carefully consider what color pen he will use to sign the check over to his president. Boss, let me spell this out for you. Trump's own former lawyers are the ones who get to decide if Trump gets this giant payout from the government that Trump is in charge of. So if you can't believe how good Trump's luck is, he also can't seem to believe it. It's interesting, because I'm the one that makes a decision, right? And, you know, that decision would have to go across my desk, and it's awfully strange to make a decision where I'm paying myself. In other words, did you ever have one of those cases where you have to decide how much you're paying yourself in damages? No. No, they haven't. No one's ever done this before. It seems like even Trump is suspicious of how easy this is. This must be how those thieves at the Louvre felt. So all I need is a ladder. I thought this would be way more complicated. I all steal these invaluable jewels, I guess. Also, keep in mind that this is all happening at a White House Diwali celebration, which, for those of you who don't know, Diwali is the traditional Hindu festival celebrating the day that the deity Rama extorted his own government for $230 million. Trump's office always has a lot going on. It's like one of those Dunkin Donuts with the Baskin Robbins in it. I came here for a mint chip, but I might as well get a sausage egg while I'm here. I cannot believe how nakedly corrupt this is. In fact, it can't be. I assume this is a more nuanced situation than it appears. And I'm sure there's some law professor out there who can explain it.

[Announcer]

One ethics professor telling the New York Times the ethical conflict is just so basic and fundamental, you don't need a law professor to explain it.

[Michael Kosta]

Wow. Wow. That's incredible. And what I'm taking away from all this is that I'm as smart as a law professor. But he's right. This isn't a law professor question. This is more of an Elmo question. He understands how up this is, and he can't even read. But also, elmo, it's been 45 years. Less tickling, more studying, maybe. And if you're wondering what Trump is going to do with the windfall from the government, well, we don't know. But we know what he's pretending he's going to do with it. Any money that I would get, I would give to charity. Okay, all right. I know what you're thinking. I know what you're thinking. Trump is just gonna donate the money to his own charity. Well, joke's on you because that charity was dissolved by court order in 2018 after misusing money for his personal benefit. I bet you feel like an asshole now. It's important to keep in mind that even if Trump does donate this money to charity, that's taxpayer money. That's us. I mean, not me. I don't recognize the authority of the irs. But the rest of you, that's your money. The American people did not give their hard earned tax dollars to the government so it can be handed over to Donald Trump as compensation for the crimes that he was legitimately investigated for. Yeah, and if you think like I do, that the furloughed government workers deserve better than this, then join by tipping them one extra dollar on DoorDash. Thank you, me. For more on Trump pressuring the Justice Department, let's go live to the White house with Troy Iwata. 230 million. This is madness.

[Troy Iwata]

Yeah, Michael, Beautiful madness. If this doesn't make you both scared and horny, you're dead inside. Trump is achieving an unprecedented level of corruption, and we here at are just getting started.

[Michael Kosta]

The lab? What lab?

[Troy Iwata]

The White House Laboratorium for Grifting. Obviously. You think this kind of political corruption just happens? No, you fool. It requires research, experimentation, and an eyewash station for safety purposes.

[Michael Kosta]

What? Wait, what? What the hell? That's how Trump came up with this insane grift.

[Troy Iwata]

Oh, we have way many more groundbreaking grifts in store. You know how Trump suddenly sprouted fat ass ankles over the summer? That was us. We gave those to him. Now he can slip and fall and sue his own White House for discriminating against cankle Americans.

[Michael Kosta]

Now that. That's crazy.

[Troy Iwata]

You think that's crazy? Next week, Trump's gonna order a drone strike on a Venezuelan boat while he's on the boat, so he'll be eligible for workers comp.

[Michael Kosta]

But, Troy, that's insanity. Insanity? Ha.

[Troy Iwata]

We have not even begun to grift. Next week, we're gonna have Trump go to the White House cafeteria and ask.

[Ryan Holiday]

For a water cup.

[Troy Iwata]

But you said water cup to get a soda instead.

[Michael Kosta]

That's not cutting edge. I used to do that in middle school all the time.

[Troy Iwata]

It's cutting edge for a president to do it. You peasant. You ever see a president steal a sun kist? It's crazy.

[Michael Kosta]

Okay, but what's the point of all this research? How much money does Trump need?

[Troy Iwata]

It's not about the money, you rube. It's about the science and pushing the boundaries of what grifts humankind thought was possible. Soon, President Trump will touch the very face of God and sell God essential oils that God can resell to his neighbors. He'll finally be his own boss.

[Michael Kosta]

Troy, when will all this end?

[Troy Iwata]

Never. Never. Because at this moment, we're working on the most elaborate stage scam of all. Donald Trump sues himself for the emotional distress caused by getting sued by himself, which will trigger an infinite loop of emotional distress, causing lawsuits, causing distress, causing lawsuits, causing distress, causing lawsuits, causing distress. Oh, God, it's happening. Oh, my God, it's happening.

[Michael Kosta]

Troy, get out of there. That's too much corruption.

[Troy Iwata]

I'm so horny and scared.

[Michael Kosta]

Troy Iwata, everybody. I'm sure he's fine. When we come back, we find out if we're getting enough protein, so don't go away. Troy.

[Ryan Holiday]

And Doug.

[Lewis Black]

Here we have the Limu emu in its natural habitat, helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug. Uh, Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us?

[Michael Kosta]

Cut the camera.

[Lewis Black]

They see us.

[Troy Iwata]

Only pay for what you [e-mail] Liberty.

[Ryan Holiday]

Liberty, Liberty.

[Troy Iwata]

Liberty Savings Ferry Unwritten by Liberty Mutual.

[Michael Kosta]

Insurance Company and affiliates Excludes Massachusetts. Welcome back to the Daily Show. When a new story falls through the cracks, Lewis Black catches it for a segment we call Back in Black.

[Lewis Black]

It seems every couple of years there's a new weight loss trend that sweeps the nation. Atkins, South Beach, Paleo, and of course, taking Ozempic. While swearing that you're not taking Ozempic, I've just been walking more straight into a needle. But these days, it's not about what you're taking out of your diet. It's about what you're adding in the.

[Michael Kosta]

American diet that has entered the protein boom. Just about every food product has added protein, from pancakes to popcorn, from crackers.

[Announcer]

To pasta, Pop Tarts and Doritos. Bulking up with added protein.

[Lewis Black]

Move over, crack. There's a new epidemic in town. Do you people really think you can get healthy by eating protein Doritos? Well, sure they have, but they're also Doritos. How much more unhealthy can you get?

[Troy Iwata]

It's created opportunity for things like this.

[Michael Kosta]

Protein packed ice cream.

[Troy Iwata]

There's companies like us when we're bringing ice cream to the table and people.

[Ryan Holiday]

Can actually enjoy it.

[Lewis Black]

Hear that? We can finally enjoy ice cream. I hope orgasms are next. That's what I love about this country. We'll eat something healthy, but only if we can lick it off a cone and not Only can you eat your protein while watching Project Runway with your girlies. You can also sip it on your morning commute.

[Announcer]

Starbucks entering the protein wars. The coffee giant is trying out a.

[Lewis Black]

New protein cold foam.

[Michael Kosta]

You can get up to 36 grams.

[Announcer]

Of protein in a grandeur. The new menu features flavors like banana, vanilla, pumpkin and pecan.

[Lewis Black]

Oh, goody. Protein packed pumpkin spice cold foam. My wish has been granted. I was starting to think that shirtless man in my apartment wasn't a genie. We might as well stop eating real food altogether because some of these protein products seem fake anyway.

[Troy Iwata]

Game time can happen anytime.

[Lewis Black]

You're out of milk.

[Michael Kosta]

So when sports call, be ready with.

[Troy Iwata]

High protein and 22 vitamins and minerals.

[Michael Kosta]

With the great taste of Vector. Be ready for sports.

[Lewis Black]

You. I'm always ready for sports. I'm wearing a jockstrap right now. Otherwise I'd be tucking my balls into my sock. Seriously, what the is Vector cereals are supposed to have cute names like Trix and Cookie Crisp. Not Vector. Vector sounds like a CIA program to kill Putin with a poison dildo. Now, as you can probably guess, this protein craze is being driven by everyone's favorite parasites, social media influencers.

[Michael Kosta]

Oh, my God.

[Announcer]

I found a high protein dinner that's under 500 calories.

[Michael Kosta]

60 grams of protein. If you want to be jacked, you need to make these high protein burritos.

[Lewis Black]

This is the fastest way to get.

[Michael Kosta]

Over 100 grams of protein in one meal.

[Lewis Black]

The fastest way to get protein. Why is time an issue? You're shirtless in your apartment, drinking a gallon of milk. It doesn't seem like you have to be anywhere. I mean, how many hours a day can you spend waxing your chest? I knock it out in 45 minutes. I'm smooth as a dolphin under here. But of course, every diet fad has a catch.

[Michael Kosta]

Can you eat too much protein?

[Announcer]

Oh, 100% whits.

[Ryan Holiday]

And then what happens?

[Announcer]

So it can be like a real stress on your kidneys. You can have a risk for cardiovascular disease. You can actually have higher cholesterol. It really is not fantastic when you go above what your body needs.

[Michael Kosta]

The thing that I worry about the.

[Announcer]

Most with too much protein is it can put stress on the liver and.

[Michael Kosta]

The kidneys and cause digestive issues. Wait, what?

[Lewis Black]

Eating 7T bone steaks a day might cause digestive issues. So that's why I haven't shit in five years. Apparently protein gives you liver. The all the liver damage of drinking with none of the therapeutic shower crying. That would have worked if I Got it out of my mouth. But it turns out the protein craze isn't just for divorced dads. It's fun for the whole broken family.

[Michael Kosta]

This toddler's chomping down on a tomahawk steak. Across social media, parents are proudly showing off their so called carnivore babies, infants and toddlers who eat a primarily animal based, protein rich diet, clear of processed foods.

[Announcer]

You want like fatty red meat, lots of butter. The kids will just come up and eat like chunks of butter. How's it going with Rory? She seems to be loving that steak. Oh yeah, she doesn't have any teeth yet, but she loves to chew on things.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah, she just kind of gums the meat and sucks all the nutrients out.

[Lewis Black]

What a great idea, giving babies animal protein. You know what else babies like that has a lot of animal protein? Milk, you idiots. I tell these parents to go to hell, but they're already there changing your baby's beef tartar diapers. But if people can't stop stuffing protein in one hole, that means there's money to be made by stuffing it into the other. So that's why I'm introducing new Lewis Black protein enemies.

[Ryan Holiday]

Now.

[Lewis Black]

Now in Cool Ranch Flav. Stick it up your ass, Michael.

[Michael Kosta]

Lewis Black, everyone. When we come back, Ryan Holiday will be joining me. Don't go away. Lewis Black.

[Announcer]

When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp, the secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans, send event invites and pinned messages so no one forgets mom 60th and never miss a meme or milestone. All protected with end to end encryption. It's time for WhatsApp message privately with everyone. Learn [e-mail] this episode is brought to you by State Farm. Listening to this podcast, Smart move. Being financially savvy. Smart move. Another smart move. Having State Farm help you create a competitive price when you choose to bundle home and auto bundling. Just another way to save with a personal price plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state.

[Michael Kosta]

Welcome back to another show. My guest is the creator of Daily Stoic and a best selling author whose latest book is called Wisdom Takes Work. Learn, apply, repeat. Please welcome Ryan Holiday. Okay, thank you for coming. Of course, through the Daily Stoics, you have brought the philosophy of stoicism to millions. But it's a little bit easier to read about it than actually do it. I was biking my kids through Prospect park trying to get to the zoo. There was a farmer's market, took a couple wrong turns. Now we're lost. Yes. Now the five year old's saying, dad, you always get lost. Now the two year old's crying. And I literally said, you know what? You Ryan Holiday, because it's easy when I'm reading it, but in action it can be trickier. How do you manage that?

[Ryan Holiday]

Well, nothing tests your stoicism quite like having little kids. I have two little ones myself, and actually my oldest hit my youngest the other day and then he hit him back. And I said, hey, you guys can't do that. And the oldest said to the youngest, you know, you don't control what happens. You only control how you respond to what happens.

[Michael Kosta]

Absolutely, yes.

[Ryan Holiday]

And I said, that's not how this stoicism thing actually works. So, yeah, look, it's a constant challenge, but that is what philosophy is. It's not supposed to be this abstract theoretical thing that you do on college campuses. You do it when your kid wakes up in the middle of the night. You do it when your kid is sick. And your mind is immediately extrapolating that this is the worst thing that could ever happen. And what does it mean? And it's supposed to stop the anxiety spiral. It's for the practical problems of life, of which our kids are the cause of many of them.

[Michael Kosta]

Yeah, it's something very comforting. And knowing that people 2000 years ago experienced the same thing, but not only experienced it, wrote guidelines on how to help us with that.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah, I mean, look, Marc Caerulius son is Commodus. So if you've seen the movie Gladiator, Joaquin Phoenix character gets it pretty close.

[Michael Kosta]

Right.

[Ryan Holiday]

So he knew about the challenges of.

[Michael Kosta]

Parenting people too, also.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yes, yes. In the arena.

[Michael Kosta]

I mean, that deserved a little more than what I.

[Ryan Holiday]

No, There's a passage in Marcus Aurelius Meditations where he talks about not wanting to get up early in the morning. And he says, you know, but it's warmer here under the covers. And then he says to himself, you know, is this what you were put here to do? To huddle under the covers and stay warm? And so these, although they wore togas and sometimes had names that we can't pronounce, they were dealing with the same problems that we are and always will be dealing with, you know, annoying and obnoxious people. He opens Meditations with that. The people you will meet today will be obnoxious and annoying. And difficult and problematic. And it's true. And they will be like that. But what the philosophy is about is how do you respond to that? How do you not let it suck you in? How do you not let it make you angry and bitter and annoying yourself? Yeah.

[Michael Kosta]

How do you let it not own you?

[Ryan Holiday]

Yes.

[Michael Kosta]

Yeah. In the book Wisdom Takes Work. There's four cardinal virtues of courage, Discipline, justice, wisdom. Look, I'm busy. If you have to. If I just have to do one of these. Courage, discipline, justice, wisdom. I'm hoping. I don't know how I could do justice, but sure, yeah. What's your thoughts?

[Ryan Holiday]

Well, they're all inseparable. They're distinct, yet inseparable from each other. Believe me, when I sat down to tackle this series of books, if I could have gotten away with only writing one, I would have done it. I think it's hard to subtract justice from any of the other virtues. And at the same time, wisdom is the most essential in that it tells us what is or isn't just how to bring that justice into the world, what to be courageous about, what is the moderate, the temperate or the disciplined amount of something, what's too much, what's too little. So they're very difficult to separate from each other. I tried, believe me, but they all inform and shape each other. But I think it is very hard to be a stupid person in the world. Right. No one has it harder than the unwise person. Right. You need wisdom. Life is a thinking person's game, and it will eat you up and tear you apart if you don't have the ability to make sense of things, to discern. This skill of discernment is sort of the ultimate life skill. So that's the most important.

[Michael Kosta]

You know, we use the word calibration around the Daily Show a lot because this is a machine that keeps going every day. You have to constantly tinker and calibrate. And I was reading your book, and there's so many fun pages and great anecdotes and quotes, but I was thinking wisdom, to me in so many ways, is calibrating our life with. I've done too much of this. Now we move over here. And I really enjoyed that. You did mention at the end of the book that you dropped out of college. I thought that was interesting that you did the end of the book with it. Because the beginning of the book, I might have been like, why am I reading this?

[Ryan Holiday]

Sure, sure.

[Michael Kosta]

But you talk about schooling versus education.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yes.

[Michael Kosta]

What does that mean to you?

[Ryan Holiday]

You know, I'm Actually, lucky I got into college at all, because I wrote my college admissions essay on the distinction between schooling and education. Yes. And needless to say, the acceptance letters did not come rolling in.

[Michael Kosta]

I'm sure they thought you were ballsy, but that was a funny thing that you shared.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, look, social intelligence is a form of wisdom, which I was clearly lacking at 17 years old. You gotta know your audience. Yeah, but there is a difference between schooling and education. You can have all the degrees in the world and not be a particularly wise or intelligent person at the same time. You can skip school or you can drop out of school, provided that you go and you make yourself a student of wise people and the collective wisdom of humanity.

[Michael Kosta]

You talk about being a disciple of experience.

[Ryan Holiday]

Sure.

[Michael Kosta]

Which means?

[Ryan Holiday]

Well, there's this dichotomy between.

[Michael Kosta]

You say yes to everything. Is that what that means? Well, I mean, even just scrolling through your social media, you know you're doing a lot of stuff.

[Ryan Holiday]

I try. Yes. Like the Greek word for idiot meant a person who did not participate in public affairs.

[Michael Kosta]

Wow.

[Ryan Holiday]

So if you are only reading or you're only staying in the classroom, you're gonna have, obviously, a stunted view of things. You have to have experiences at the same time. There's a lot of people who've been alive for a long time that clearly didn't pick up much wisdom along the way either. So when I'm saying it's learn, apply, repeat, that is sort of the wisdom is the byproduct of that cycle. You learn, you're taught, you read, then you try to apply it in the real world, and then you gotta reflect on that and try to get a little bit better next time.

[Michael Kosta]

And if you believe you've arrived at.

[Ryan Holiday]

Wisdom, probably don't have it.

[Michael Kosta]

You're dumb.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yes.

[Michael Kosta]

Yeah. But the people that believe, they're certain won't even take the steps necessary to learn wisdom. This is the conundrum of life. And, you know, I think so many men in particular are drawn to Daily Stoic. As a man myself who really enjoys your Books and your YouTube and your Instagram, I see men in leadership positions now, and I don't connect. I see our current administration. I see a lot of the podcasters, and I think it's hard for me to connect with them. I don't feel like those are the men I want to be. It doesn't seem like a healthy balance. Elon Musk, this brilliant, brilliant man, and now it seems like he's a cautionary tale to men. How do you Feel that so many men are, you know, you are their stoic, or how would the stoics advise you to be in this position?

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah, I feel like I'm one of the few male influencer types that did not become radicalized or red pilled. So, like, stoicism is not supposed to make you a better sociopath or a bigger asshole. That's not what this is. That's the ethical component. Right. I think Elon Musk was on Joe Rogan and he said, you know, empathy is gonna cause the destruction of Western civilization. That is a profoundly stupid thing to say and think.

[Michael Kosta]

Well, you talk about him a lot. You talk about him a lot in the book. And it's. It seems like part of the point you're making is maybe here's a brilliant man who's done a lot of amazing things but wasn't on this path to wisdom.

[Ryan Holiday]

I mean, to say that Elon Musk is not smart is like saying he's not rich, he's clearly very smart. But that is what is so scary about it, that you could be so brilliant, so gifted, so informed. You could have been so successful. And then social media can still break your brain. Right? And it did. It did. This is a guy who went from reading Soviet rocket manuals to figure out the aeronautics business to following like Cat Turd7 on Twitter and Russian bots, from whom he now gets his information and his worldview. And that is, I think, a tale as old as time. You become successful, you think that you're smart, and that is when you start to get real dumb. Because as the Stoics say, it's impossible to learn that which you think you already know.

[Michael Kosta]

I know, I read that in here and I had to kind of stop and walk around and ruminate on that. And then I said, am I a dumbass that I can't even figure out that sentence? But it starts to make sense.

[Ryan Holiday]

Well, you know, the Athenians send someone to the temple of Apollo to ask the oracle of Delphi, you know, is there anyone wiser than Socrates? And the answer comes back, there's no one wiser than Socrates. Now this is baffling to Socrates himself. He says, because I don't feel wiser than anyone else.

[Michael Kosta]

Right?

[Ryan Holiday]

And that was precisely the point. From the humility, he is wise. You know, the Socratic method is him walking around Athens asking questions, not lecturing them on what he knows. He's genuinely curious. And from that curiosity and from that humility, it becomes possible to learn. Like the thing about being a know it all is. It is a self fulfilling prophecy because it becomes impossible for you to know anything more than you currently know.

[Michael Kosta]

I feel in general, as a society we have, we're asking so many less questions.

[Ryan Holiday]

Sure.

[Michael Kosta]

And you talk a little bit about two ears, one mouth. I just feel like if we asked more questions, if those in power asked more questions, we might be better off.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah. And of course. And those in power need to be challenged and asked questions also. Yeah, correct.

[Michael Kosta]

Thank you for talking with me. I kind of am forgetting about the audience and just trying to bleed your brain for as much knowledge. But with kids, I mean, how can I help instill stoicism in these young annoying brats? When it's a now culture. It is a TikTok. It is. You know, when the Internet came out. Never make a video over three minutes. Now it's like, don't make a video over 35 seconds. I want my kids to take a deep breath and read books and calm down. But what are some tricks I can use?

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah, I mean, look, you're not gonna teach them stoicism unless you're modeling stoicism.

[Michael Kosta]

Well, I'm not gonna do that, but. Right, okay, so I gotta do it too.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yes, you've gotta do it. And I think that is the mess that we're in, which is that we were taught values as a society and then our leaders don't embody them in any way, shape or form.

[Michael Kosta]

But yes, yes, but we can emotionally prove that by doing it ourselves.

[Ryan Holiday]

Yeah. So look, you and I are not president. We don't run the world. We don't control so much of what's happening, but we control how we act. Like we might want to see less cruelty, more decency, more honesty, more kindness, more competence. Well, let's start at home, right? How are you doing those things? It's so easy to despair about what's happening in Washington or Brussels. But we all have our own domains, what the Stokes would call our circles of control. And that's a lot. And it's a lot. And it makes a difference. If we all do our thing well and we do it with courage and discipline and justice and wisdom, it makes a huge difference. And yeah, our kids are people. Think about multi generational impact. Well, there it is at your house. And you're neglecting it to yell at someone on social media.

[Michael Kosta]

I want to briefly just talk to you about how much research you did on Abraham Lincoln. Abraham Lincoln comes up a lot in this church. It was fascinating to hear more about him, but you really dove in. Why Is Abraham Lincoln so important?

[Ryan Holiday]

In a way, he's the complete man that embodies all of these virtues. Tolstoy was in this remote part of Russia, and he's talking to these tribesmen, and he's telling them these stories of history. And they said, but you haven't told us about the greatest man of them all. They go, who are you talking about? Abraham Lincoln. And he's blown away, but he thinks. He goes, yeah, this is actually the kind of man that a nation can be proud of. You know, Lincoln famously has his little engine that knows no rest. That's his ambition. But what does he use that ambition for? It's not for his own gain, right? It's to free a people, not to enslave a people. And that is what greatness is. That's what virtue is like. How do you leave this place better than you found it? And I've always been a Civil War nerd. I've always loved Abraham Lincoln. But you sit down to write. I think people think there's such a thing as writer's block. There isn't. Writer's block is you haven't done the work, you don't have the material. And so I thought I'd read enough about Lincoln and there was about another 5,000 pages left for me to read. But that's what books are, is the distillation of other books and other people's experiences. And I love what I get to do because I get to nerd out about stuff.

[Michael Kosta]

Can you imagine how many Instagram followers Abraham Lincoln would have if he was alive today? This book sits next to my bed because I can grab any page and read it and feel like I'm feeding my brain. Thank you for writing it. Thank you for being here. Wisdom Takes Work is available now. Be sure to check out his daily stoic podcast, Ryan Holiday. We'll take a quick break. We'll be right back after this. Thank you, man. Appreciate you so much. Upgrade your laundry routine with a durable and reliable Maytag laundry pair at Lowe's. Like the new Maytag washer and dryer with performance enhanced stain fighting power designed to cut through serious dirt and grime. And what's great is this laundry pair is in stock and ready for delivery when you need it the most. Don't miss out. Shop Maytag in store or online today at Lowe's.

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[Michael Kosta]

That'S our show for tonight. Now here it is, your moment of Zen.

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What do you think's gonna happen? Does Donald Trump get the check for 2:30?

[Michael Kosta]

If I had to guess, I would guess that they'll give him a check and he'll be happy and the Democrats will complain and some Republicans will complain and the page will turn and we'll move on to the next controversy.

[Lewis Black]

Explore more shows from the Daily Show.

[Michael Kosta]

Podcast universe by searching the Daily Show. Wherever you get your podcasts, watch the Daily show weeknights at 1110 Central on Comedy Central and stream full episodes anytime on Paramount.

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Plus.

[Michael Kosta]

This has been a Comedy Central podcast.

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