Trump Eyes Cuba Takeover, MAGA Brawls Over Micropenises & Is the New Ayatollah Gay? | George Saunders

Summary

The Daily Show: Ears Edition

Date: March 18, 2026
Host: Jordan Klepper
Guest: George Saunders
Episode Title: Trump Eyes Cuba Takeover, MAGA Brawls Over Micropenises & Is the New Ayatollah Gay? | George Saunders

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Episode Overview

This episode of The Daily Show, hosted by Jordan Klepper, skewers the latest political chaos, focusing on President Trump's bellicose foreign policy, an embarrassingly public feud within the MAGA movement, and bizarre media rumors about Iran’s new Ayatollah. The show’s comedic yet sharp analysis crescendos with a thoughtful, engaging interview with acclaimed author George Saunders about empathy, accountability, and hope in turbulent times.

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Key Segments & Discussion Points

1. Opening Headlines & The Ongoing War in Iran

[01:25–04:43]

• Trump’s Adventurism: Jordan Klepper opens with Trump's cavalier talk about “taking Cuba by the Cohibas” and America’s involvement in a new, unpopular war in Iran.
• Trump’s Dubious “Support”: Trump brags about advice from an unnamed “former president” supporting his military moves.
  • Quote: “I spoke to one of the former presidents who I actually like, and he said, I wish I did what you did.” – Donald Trump [02:23]
  • Klepper jokes about the impossible task of guessing which president, suggesting Trump might be “talking to a portrait of Grover Cleveland.” [04:16]
• Public & Political Backlash: The war is historically unpopular from the outset, compared to “Apple TV shows: People are like, I don't know what's going on here, but for some reason, I'm on board.” – Jordan Klepper [02:01]

2. Trump’s Cuba Plans and Supervillain Vibe

[04:36–05:27]

• Trump's Statement: “I do believe I'll be the honor of having the honor of taking Cuba.” – Donald Trump [04:36]
• Klepper’s Reaction: Klepper frames Trump as yawning through his supervillain lines, missing the expected theatricality. [05:12]
  • Notable Quip: “Why are you sounding like Lexapro Luther over here? The world is mine, Superman? I guess, whatever.” – Jordan Klepper [05:22]

3. MAGA Civil War: Micropenis Insults & Social Media Meltdown

[06:25–10:01]

• Key Players: MAGA icons feud—Mark Levin and Megyn Kelly exchange personal (and anatomical) insults after Levin criticizes Kelly’s anti-war stance.
  • Quote from Kelly: “Mark thinks he has the monopoly on lewd. He doesn't like it when women like me fight back because of his micropenis.” [07:13]
• Trump Weighs In: “Mark is tough, strong, and brilliant.” – Trump (defending Levin) [07:34]
• Klepper’s Satire:
  • “Feels like I'm bad at the Oxford Debate Club. Be it resolved, that dick be tiny.” [07:22]
  • Klepper highlights how the movement is distracted from the war by childish arguments: “Aren’t we at war? You’re tweeting about your buddy’s micropenis?” [08:37]
  • Marjorie Taylor Greene jumps in, unhelpfully supporting Kelly’s claim. [09:14]

4. Media Rumor-Mongering: The “Gay Ayatollah”

[10:08–14:17]

• News Becomes Gossip: The New York Post reports that Iran’s new Ayatollah “might be gay,” based on rumor and innuendo.
  • Klepper mockery: “The media is turning into TMZ.” [11:40]
• Pentagon “Analysis” with Troy Iwata:
  • Iwata, satirically, claims to be the “only gay person in the entertainment industry” and introduces Americans to the concept of “queerbaiting”, suggesting Ayatollah Junior (not actually gay) is fueling the gossip. [12:33, 13:12]
  • Iwata Quote: “A good story is a good story. Think about it—a closeted leader... forced to lead after your father, who never accepted your lifestyle, is suddenly killed... all you ever wanted to do was just feel that spotlight.” [13:12]
  • Klepper and Iwata riff about Hollywood tropes, with Iwata insisting, “Because in order for queerbaiting to work, people need to want to have sex with you.” [14:56]

5. Freedom of the Press Under Attack: Satirical Infomercial

[15:45–20:11]

• Trump Targets the Media:
  • Trump and his administration ramp up attacks on journalists, suggesting outlets critical of the war be investigated for treason.
  • Trump (Truth Social): “I am so thrilled to see... the FCC... looking at the licenses of... unpatriotic news organizations.” [16:20]
  • Klepper lampoons Trump’s disregard for the First Amendment, reading “from the Constitution” on a Korean BBQ menu. [17:49]
• Satirical “Free Speech Plus” Ad:
  • Desi and Marjorie Taylor Greene perform an infomercial for a dystopian subscription service that allows you to criticize the president—for a price, with plenty of restrictions. [18:17–20:11]
  • Desi explains: “For $50 a month, I can say anything I want about the president... There are some limits... no fat jokes, no dumb jokes, nothing about his little dick or his fat ankles...” [19:26]

6. Extended Interview: George Saunders – On Empathy, Accountability & Hope

[21:14–32:24]

Saunders’ New Novel “Vigil”

• Premise: “The outline is a stinker dies... a guy who has been really active in climate change denial back in the Bush Cheney era and it’s the last night of his life. So, you know, hilarity ensues.” – George Saunders [21:49]
• Empathy for Villains:
  • Saunders discusses the challenge and process of narrating from inside the mind of a morally compromised character:
    • “Empathy is kind of—maybe not empathy, but... a level of understanding... How does a guy who’s done that... narrate that to himself?” [22:11]
  • On the deathbed, Saunders’ character is visited by ghosts representing comfort and accountability. Klepper notes the tension between forgiveness and retribution.

Mercy vs. Justice

• Saunders: “Her point of view is, none of us in the womb had a checklist... So... be merciful when they're wrong, don't be too triumphant when you're right. So she's kind of an angel... but she's also really bad at her job.” [24:40]
  • “But you've got to have some spine. The Frenchman [ghost] says... you can forgive, but first... make people confess and... reduce them to a place of honesty.” [25:15]

On Hope and Public Despair

• Finding “Clean Water”: Saunders shares a parable about keeping your mind clear in a “poisoned” culture.
  • “I think the trick is to recognize the clean water in whatever way you can... fiction works... by reassuring [readers] of their mutual humanity.” [28:03]
• Hope for America:
  • “I think this fever's gonna break. Because these are a bunch of incompetents... It's like we took the most pugilistic, simplistic, strange people in the high school and put them in charge of the prom.” [29:14]
• On Media Siloing and National Fragmentation:
  • “I’d never before realized how divided we were. We're getting different media feeds... If I go fight with my anti-Trump uncle... we could just put two TVs in there [with MSNBC and Fox] and we could leave the room.” [30:37]
  • “Despair is a more dangerous emotion than even anger. So...when this crumbles... those of us who are of the spirit could fill the void with an even better version.” [31:32]

Closing

• Klepper’s Tribute: “It is a wonderful book from one of my favorite minds in this good old strange, beautiful country with bad water. But there's good water out there somewhere.” [32:13]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Trump’s Cuba Ambitions:
  • “You can do anything you want with it.” – Trump [05:09]
• MAGA Feud Summed Up:
  • “Be it resolved, that dick be tiny.” – Jordan Klepper [07:25]
• Media Irreverence:
  • “New Ayatollah is probably gay. Give it up for the fourth estate, everyone. Wow. Bravo.” – Jordan Klepper [10:31]
• Press Freedoms:
  • “You can say that those media outlets that generated it should be brought up on charges for treason.” – Trump [17:09]
• Saunders on Empathy:
  • “The proper relation to people is be merciful when they're wrong, don't be too triumphant when you're right.” – George Saunders [24:40]
• On Despair and Hope:
  • “Despair is a more dangerous emotion than even anger... when this crumbles... those of us who are of the spirit could fill the void with an even better version.” – George Saunders [31:32]

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Important Timestamps

• Trump’s Iran and Cuba Rhetoric: [01:37–05:27]
• MAGA “Micropenis” Feud: [06:25–10:01]
• Media Gossips about Ayatollah: [10:17–14:17]
• Satirical Free Speech Plus Ad: [18:17–20:11]
• George Saunders Interview: [21:14–32:24]

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Summary Tone

The episode seamlessly blends biting satire with sharp media criticism and a sincere, thoughtful interview. Klepper and the news team mock political absurdities and media frenzies with classic Daily Show wit. George Saunders brings introspection and humanity to the table, encouraging both mercy and principled clarity in dark times. The result is a rich, multi-layered episode well-suited for listeners wanting both laughs and substance.

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End of Summary

Transcript

[A]

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[Donald Trump]

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[Comedy Central Announcer]

Now you're listening to Comedy Central.

From the most trusted journalists at Comedy Central. It's America's only source for this is the Daily show with your host, Jordan Klepper.

[Jordan Klepper]

Welcome to the Daily Show. I'm Jordan Klepper. We got so much to talk about tonight.

Trump wants to grab Cuba by the Cohibas. Free speech updates its terms and conditions, and MAGA gets into a big fight over small penises.

So let's get into our ongoing coverage

of the war in Iran.

[Donald Trump]

Nothing bad can happen. It can only good happen

[Jordan Klepper]

now. According to public polling, the war in Iran has less support at its outset than any previous American war. And wars are almost always popular in the beginning. They're kind of like Apple TV shows.

People are like, I don't know what's going on here, but for some reason, I'm on board.

But President Trump doesn't need popular support or congressional consent to declare war because he's got a high profile fan on his side. President Trump made news when he suggested

[I]

a former president he's been speaking with

[Jordan Klepper]

wishes he had done to Iran what Trump has done.

[Donald Trump]

I spoke to one of the former presidents who I actually like, and he said, I wish I did what you did.

[Jordan Klepper]

Okay, first of all, why is the president holding onto the desk like it's a safety bar on a Six Flags roller coaster?

No, Come into the Oval Office. I'll be right with you.

Just let my French tips dry.

You know, no bigging,

but the big question is, which former president gave Trump props for the war in Iran?

Come on, Trump, spill the beans.

[Peter Doocy]

I just want to ask you about something very interesting that you said twice today that you talked to another former president about the Iran strikes.

[Donald Trump]

I did.

[Peter Doocy]

Was it George W. Bush?

[George Saunders]

No.

[Peter Doocy]

Was It Bill Clinton.

[Donald Trump]

I don't want to say.

[Jordan Klepper]

Oh, oh, I think you've said plenty, Mr. Trump. I don't want to give away who it is. All I can say is that I was recently helping him prep for his Epstein island deposition.

That's all.

By the way, I love how Peter Doocy is trying to play Guess who With our toddler president. Is he wearing glasses? Is he bald? If he was doing karaoke, would he be allowed to sing all the words in Gold Digger? Now, there's also another possibility, and this may come as a shock, which is that maybe, just possibly, Trump pulled the whole thing out of his ass. Aides to each of the four living former presidents all deny they have had

[George Saunders]

any such conversations with President Trump.

[Jordan Klepper]

Yes, the living former presidents denied talking to Trump. Trump never said living.

What's more likely, that Bill Clinton thinks starting a half baked war in the Middle east was a good idea or. Or that Trump spent 20 minutes talking to a portrait of Grover Cleveland? Regardless of who he's been talking to about it, I'm just glad the President has his mind 100% completely focused on this daunting situation with Iran.

[Donald Trump]

I do believe I'll be the honor of having the honor of taking Cuba.

[Jordan Klepper]

No, no. No new wars until you finish the war we just got you. This is not the time to be taking Cuba. By the way. What do you mean by taking Cuba?

[Peter Doocy]

Taking Cuba.

[Donald Trump]

Taking Cuba in some form. Yeah, taking Cuba. I mean, whether I free it, take it. I think I could do anything I want with it. You want to know the truth?

[Jordan Klepper]

You can do anything you want with it.

I don't know what's worse, that he's talking like a supervillain or that he sounds so bored about it, you should

be cackling with lightning in the background

when you say shit like that.

Why are you sounding like Lexapro Luther over here?

The world is mine, Superman? I guess, whatever. While Trump seems unengaged, some people in his administration are getting worked up.

[Morning Anchor]

Breaking news. The head of the National Counterterrorism Center, Joe Kent, announced just hours ago that he is resigning immediately over the war in Iran box.

[Jordan Klepper]

I mean, that would be even more damning if this guy wasn't an unqualified crackpot. But it still has to shake up a president when one of your appointees resigns over your war.

[Donald Trump]

I read his statement. I always thought he was a nice guy, but I always thought he was weak on security. Very weak on security.

[Jordan Klepper]

You appointed him. You know what I mean?

I guess that tracks. Everyone knows the Qualifications for running the National Counter Terrorism Center. Go. Nice guy brings muffins to the morning meeting.

And then all the way down the list.

Good on security. But this split is dividing the entire MAGA movement right now. There's the anti war side with people like Joe Rogan, Tucker Carlson and Megyn Kelly. And there's the pro war side with Sean Hannity, Lindsey Graham and Mark Levin. And as you can imagine, the quality of an internal MAGA debate is highly intellectual.

[Mark Levin]

On the X platform, Mark Levin posted, Poor Megyn Kelly, an emotionally unhinged, lewd and petulant wreck. She's completely revealed and destroyed herself. In response, Megyn Kelly posted micropenis. Mark thinks he has the monopoly on lewd. He doesn't like it when women like me fight back because of his micro penis.

[Jordan Klepper]

Oh, Feels like I'm bad at the Oxford Debate Club.

Be it resolved, that dick be tiny.

Now, it's not a good look for President Trump to have his followers fighting so publicly over their micropenises. Donny, why don't you step in and heal the divide?

[Mark Levin]

President Trump defended Mark Levin, posting that he is somewhat under siege by other people with far less intellect, capability and love for our country. Mark is tough, strong, and brilliant. In response, Megyn Kelly posted that Mark Levin went running to daddy about his micropenis.

[Jordan Klepper]

Damn it, Megan. Damn it. Oh,

now, it's obviously not fair to accuse Mark Levin of running to daddy about his micropenis. Although I imagine having a micro penis makes the running a lot easier. Totally unrelated, but in high school, I was the slowest guy in gym class. Putting that out there, putting it out there.

By the way, did you notice that

at no point did Trump deny the micropenis allegations? Not exactly the full throated defense. You watch.

He has a micropenis. Hey, he's a nice man. Also, I'm sorry, aren't we at war? You're tweeting about your buddy's micropenis.

Was FDR taking time out of his fireside chats to be like, anyway, that's

how D Day went. Now, if I may say a few words about whether my friend Zachary has a chode.

Please, please. Isn't there anybody who can calm the situation? Marjorie Taylor Greene, you're a. You're a respected member of maga. Perhaps you can bring some intellectual substance to this debate.

[Marjorie Taylor Greene]

Former Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene posted. I wholeheartedly support Megyn Kelly telling the world that Mark Levin has a micropenis.

[Jordan Klepper]

Marjorie, come on, come on. With all this talk about micropenises, we're losing sight the real reason we attacked Iran, which is shit. You know what? Now that I think about it, we never got an answer to that, actually.

And believe me, I've been searching for

one harder than Mark Levin's urologist. You know, Boom.

Sorry. Sorry, Mark. I had to get in one last small one just like you.

[Comedy Central Announcer]

Boom.

[Jordan Klepper]

You got him.

Sorry.

Okay, look, can conservatives please just stay

focused on the actual war? There's a new ayatollah in power who is dead set on revenge. You should be talking about him, not gossiping about men's penises.

[New York Post Reporter]

The New York Post is reporting that the President was just briefed about the new ayatollah. Sources are saying Ayatollah Junior might be gay.

[Jordan Klepper]

You gotta love that banner.

New Ayatollah is probably gay. Give it up for the fourth estate, everyone. Wow. Bravo. Yes, love the media, who apparently are

now reporting gossip like they're high school mean girls. This just in from the CIA. The new Ayatollah got his period in the driver's ed car. Fine, fine. I guess we're doing this. Media establishment. Let's. Let's hear that hot, hot gossip.

[New York Post Reporter]

Ayatollah Junior might be gay and has been making aggressive sexual advances on his male caretakers while hopped up on meds. His father reportedly thought he was too gay to be Iran's supreme leader.

[Jordan Klepper]

Too gay?

I like the implication that the Supreme Leader of Iran should be a little gay.

He should be like Death to America, except Lady Gaga. So that's basically where we're at right now.

This country has launched itself into a devastating regional war in the Middle East. The president is focused on taking Cuba. His movement is split amongst themselves, and the media is turning into tmz. The quality of our discourse has absolutely vanished. And in these fraught times, is it too much to ask for just a little bit of thoughtfulness and dignity? If we could just have the smallest amount, it would still be bigger than Mark Levin's penis.

Boom. Garbage.

Sorry. Sorry, Mark. Sorry.

For more on the rumors about Iran's

new supreme Leader, let's go live to the Pentagon with Troy Iwata.

Troy. Troy. Greg, what do you think about the

rumors that the Ayatollah is gay?

[Troy Iwata]

Well, Jordan, as the only gay person in the entertainment industry, I can assure you that the Ayatollah is not gay.

[Jordan Klepper]

Okay, well, that. That makes sense.

[Troy Iwata]

He's obviously queer baiting, and I don't appreciate it.

[Jordan Klepper]

I. I'm sorry. Queer baiting?

[Troy Iwata]

Yes.

[Jordan Klepper]

Yes. That's.

[Troy Iwata]

It's. It's exactly what everyone In Hollywood does to a T. Okay? They take a straight man, tease the idea that he might be a little, uh, you know, and then just watch everyone obsessed, trying to figure out if he is indeed a little. It's so manipulative.

[Jordan Klepper]

But. But why would he even do that? The Islamic regime is very homophobic.

[Troy Iwata]

It doesn't matter how homophobic the regime is. A good story is a good story. You know, think about it. A closeted leader of a homophobic nation, forced to lead after your father, who never accepted your lifestyle, is suddenly killed. And now you're burdened with the responsibility to pass laws and uphold traditions that go against your tr, when all you ever wanted to do was just feel that spotlight.

[George Saunders]

Wow.

[Jordan Klepper]

I mean, you're right, Troy. I feel so bad for him.

[Troy Iwata]

He's not gay, Jordan. He's just sucking you into this fake narrative by doing what every Hollywood TV show does. It's so gross. I would only watch, like, half of it.

[Jordan Klepper]

Oh, my God. I mean, what if he falls in love with an Israeli general, but they can only see each other across the Strait of Hormuz, and all of their communication has to be nonverbal?

[Troy Iwata]

Oh, my God. Can you imagine? That would be so sad and hot. Wait, stop, stop. No, you're getting me sucked into it now.

[Jordan Klepper]

Stop it. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. You're right. It's. It's a very powerful technique. Why doesn't our president try queerbaiting?

[George Saunders]

Donald.

[Troy Iwata]

Donald is not gonna pretend to be gay, Jordan, okay? He's. He's pretty gay already.

[Jordan Klepper]

What are you talking about? He's married to a woman.

[Troy Iwata]

Oh, wow. A gay man has never been married

[Jordan Klepper]

to a woman before. Totally. Wow. Yeah.

[Troy Iwata]

He's not gay. He just tore down his wife's office to build a ballroom.

[Jordan Klepper]

But how do we know he's just not queerbaiting too?

[Troy Iwata]

Because in order for queerbaiting to work, people need to want to have sex with you.

[Jordan Klepper]

Troy Wada. Everyone, we come back. The president has a new app for you.

No. Go away.

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[Jordan Klepper]

The big arch.

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The most McDonald's McDonald's burger yet for a limited time.

[Jordan Klepper]

Welcome back to the Daily Show. Free speech. It's the piece de resistance of our constitutional rights. It assures that I can say insufferable things like, and the only consequence is having no friends. But lately, this piece de resistance has been under attack.

[George Saunders]

President Trump and his officials are ramping up attacks on news organizations and broadcasters.

[Jordan Klepper]

President Trump baselessly claiming on Truth Social that the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal and other low life papers and media actually want us to lose the war.

[George Saunders]

Then last night, the President wrote, quote,

[Jordan Klepper]

I am so thrilled to see Brendan Carr, the chairman of the Federal Communications Commission, looking at the licenses of some of these corrupt and high unpatriotic news organizations.

What are you doing, man?

You're still going after the press. There's no more mergers left to approve.

We're all just subsidiaries of one company now.

Correction. One great company.

Sign up for Peril, Warner, Dismax, fubu, Cock today.

Now, on the bright side, at least Trump has stopped short of calling journalists crazy, because that would be a huge escalation.

[Desi]

President Trump falsely accused outlets of coordinating with the Iranian government to spread falsehoods.

[Jordan Klepper]

Writing, quote, you can say that those

[Desi]

media outlets that generated it should be brought up on charges for treason.

[Donald Trump]

I actually think it's pretty criminal because our media companies, who have no credibility whatsoever, they think they could be in

[Jordan Klepper]

serious jeopardy accusing the media of treason. You know what? I've got something for you to read, Mr. President. It is called the Constitution of the United States of America, which is. Where's my desk? Constitution. Where's the. Okay, you know what? Pretend this Korean barbecue menu is the Constitution.

Okay?

Let me read to you from the First Amendment, sir.

Bulgogi rice bowl, 1699

kimchi extra. Does that mean anything to you? But if President Trump is trying to limit journalists freedom of speech, it might only be a matter of time before he tries to limit hours. Luckily, there's a new service that can help.

[Desi]

Oh, my gosh. Have you been watching the news? They're cracking down on anyone who criticizes the President.

[Jordan Klepper]

I know.

[Marjorie Taylor Greene]

I'm worried about my freedom of speech.

[Desi]

You mean like, if I say I don't really think President Trump is doing that great of a job. Shh. You're gonna get in trouble. Not me, because I just signed up for free Speech plus.

[Marjorie Taylor Greene]

What's that?

[Desi]

It's this new service from the Trump administration. I can say anything I want about the president for just $50 a month. What a deal. Do I pay with an app? Oh, no, you just hand $50 to the man standing over your shoulder. Oh, no, I only have $40. Oh, that's okay. You can just sign up for free speech. Plus, with ads, I can talk as much as I want, and every 15 minutes, my mouth plays a commercial with

[Jordan Klepper]

Gold at an all time high. It's never been a better time to sell your jewelry for cold hard cash.

Whoa.

[Marjorie Taylor Greene]

That was barely noticeable.

[Desi]

It even happens when I sleep.

[Jordan Klepper]

Cool.

[Desi]

And here I thought just my constitutional right to free speech was.

[Marjorie Taylor Greene]

So with Free Speech plus, there's no limits to what I can say.

[Desi]

Well, there are some limits. For example, no fat jokes, no dumb jokes. Nothing about his little dick or his fat ankles. Nothing about demolishing the east wing or the Nobel Peace Prize or corruption. Oh, and nothing about Epstein or his little dick.

[Marjorie Taylor Greene]

Wait, no Epstein's little dick or no Eps? Epstein and no Trump's little dick Both. Free Speech plus. Free speech has never been so guaranteed. Free Speech plus does not cover black people, Muslims, late night TV show hosts, gender studies teachers, really gay guys, and liberal college students.

[Desi]

So what are you gonna say first with Free Speech Plus? Well, I think Trump is the promo

[Jordan Klepper]

code you can use today for 25% off your MyPillow.

[Desi]

That'll show him

[Marjorie Taylor Greene]

free speech plus. Pay what you need to say what you want.

[Jordan Klepper]

Thank you, Desi. We come back, George Saund. We go around the show. Don't go away.

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[Jordan Klepper]

Welcome back to the Daily Show. My guest tonight is a booker prize winning author whose latest novel is called Vigil.

Please welcome George Saunders.

George, come on now. Wow. George it is.

I'm humbled to have you here. Thank you.

[George Saunders]

I'm humbled to be here.

[Jordan Klepper]

Thank you. I love this book. For the dumb folks who haven't read it yet, tell us a little bit about what this book is about.

[George Saunders]

It's basically the outline is a stinker dies.

[Jordan Klepper]

A stinker dies.

[George Saunders]

A stinker dies. There's a guy who has been really active in the climate change denial back in the Bush Cheney era and it's the last night of his life. So, you know, hilarity ensues.

[Jordan Klepper]

And you empathize. You show some empathy for this oil tycoon. Yeah, is this really the time for that, George?

[George Saunders]

Yeah, it's always the time. No, I mean, when you're narrating somebody from inside his head, you find out that empathy is kind of. Or maybe not empathy, but kind of a level of understanding. You know, you're talking about his childhood. And to me, the interesting thing about this book was if you're a stinker, a guy who's really done bad things, how do you narrate that to yourself? I don't think it's the Cruella De Vil school of evil, where you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm evil today and I'm loving it, but there's something going on. So how does. For three years, the question was, how does a guy who's done that, and he knows he's done it, so how does he speak to himself? You know, how does he rationalize it?

[Jordan Klepper]

And so, yeah, so you're getting in the mindset of somebody who has done, on the surface, some pretty horrible things and made some decisions. What do you discover about putting your head in that headspace? I try not to put myself in the space of other people in their shoes, in their headspace. I try to stay immune from that kind of empathetic response.

[George Saunders]

Just hover above them.

[Jordan Klepper]

That's the best place. It's the best.

I don't know why everybody's so critical about it.

What do you discover for being in that headset?

[George Saunders]

Well, I mean, one thing in his case, the whole thing in the last. Maybe it's the last two or three hours of his life, and there's a series of ghosts who come around as they do and try to convince him that he's been wrong. And so it was interesting to kind of look into your own mind and say, well, how do I deny shit? You know, how do I. If I'm. Or stuff. Whatever.

[Jordan Klepper]

Cable, baby. It is cable.

[George Saunders]

But, you know, but when you. When we've done that we wish we hadn't done, there's actually a series of steps you go through. First it's, I didn't do it. Well, I did it, but I didn't mean it, or I did it and someone made me. And finally, towards the end, you might, if you're lucky, especially if it's the last night of your life, have a moment of real honesty and clarity.

[Jordan Klepper]

Well, it feels like this book is also debating the idea of you have a character, a ghost, who is there to provide comfort. You have another character, the Frenchman, who in general is there for accountability.

[George Saunders]

Yeah.

[Jordan Klepper]

Wants this oil tycoon to face some sort of retribution or at least guilt and understanding on their deathbed. Like, where do you come down on that of offering comfort? What does that mean to you?

[George Saunders]

Well, for me, the whole book was kind of a exporting of my own mental stuff. Like as a career.

[Jordan Klepper]

Is this for people at all?

This is just your own therapy that you're profiting off of, George. Wow.

[George Saunders]

Good gig. If you. But you know, the idea that like as a career long liberal, you know, slightly left of Gandhi,

[Jordan Klepper]

humble yourself.

I want to forget. We get it.

[George Saunders]

I want to forgive everybody, you know, and this one ghost, Jill, her point of view is, you know, none of us in the womb had a checklist of the way we want it to be when we were born. So if it turns out that you were lucky and intelligent and articulate and all this, that's great for you, but it isn't necessarily a given. So therefore the proper relation to people is be merciful when they're wrong, don't be too triumphant when you're right. So she's kind of an angel. She's kind of a very spiritual being, but she's also really bad at her job. So for me it became a debate about liberals like myself. If somebody hit you in the head with a rock, you're like, oh, thank you for the geology lesson. But I know that's not serving us very well now. You've got to have some spine. So the Frenchman is somebody who says, sure, you can forgive, but first you have to make people confess and you have to reduce them to a place of honesty. And then you can start talking about repentance.

[Jordan Klepper]

How do you see that? I mean, in this day and age. I read that and I want to be somebody who is like Jill, this character who wants to comfort and see. Wonderful phrase. That their existence and who they are is inevitable because of the circumstances that they are in. But then you see that up against somebody who is a climate denier and caused a lot of havoc in this world. And I do, in this day and age that is so devoid of accountability. Like I look to these characters and I wonder how much grace we should accord people who have done such terrible things.

[George Saunders]

Well, I mean, the ultimate grace, I think, is to hold so many to say what you're doing is cruel and you can't just keep doing it and we're going to stop you so for me, like, Minneapolis was a beautiful example of people saying, we're not going to become violent, but we're going to stop this. And so to me, there's no real divide between compassion and firmness if you do it right, because God knows, I mean, if you're, you know, list of people in the Trump administration, this isn't good for you. You know, I heard a Buddhist teacher say I wouldn't wish their situation on my worst enemy because of the karma or the sin that they're accruing. So in a certain way, I think to be firm. And for me, the whole thing is in this really confusing shit show to say, do I still have any clarity about what I really believe? Do I still believe in truth? Do I still believe in love? Do I still believe in community? For me, I'm thinking, like, the big job is to keep that clear in my mind.

[Jordan Klepper]

How do you do that? Just even stepping away? I think that is a question I'm asking every day. And, I mean, I hate to say it, when I go out and I talk to people, both political and also friends, people are having a miserable time right now. The world is on fire. There is a war. We see cruelty celebrated. We are constantly inundated with misinformation in ways that make us only angry and frustrated. It's hard to find that light. Where do you see that? You mentioned Buddhism. Is that a path that you have found it in? Is it writing books and then making money off of it? It sounds like that's also effective for you.

[George Saunders]

It works for everybody. No, I think. I mean, there's this old parable about a kingdom that only had one well, and for some reason, a witch or somebody poisoned the well such that when the people drank the water, they would go insane. And so the king who lived up on the hill, as kings do, he had his own well.

[Jordan Klepper]

Looking down on people, again, is the best vantage point.

[George Saunders]

Yeah, but he had his own well. So the whole kingdom is going insane, and he's got the clear, clean water up there. And in the parable, the decision is, does he drink the water, become insane, and thereby be able to rule his people? And in the parable, he does. He goes as crazy as he does in our time. I think the trick is to recognize the clean water in whatever way you can. For me, it's right. You know, fiction works the way I would say it is. A good book is a series of moments in which the reader recognizes herself on the page, her experience, and her heart rises to it, and she's Engaged. And this goes on and on. And the sum total of is that two people who don't know each other have reassured one another of their mutual humanity. So you feel. Hopefully, reading my book, you feel that I believe you're as real as I am and vice versa. So I think that's a. It's a small thing, but for me, it's really helpful to every day go. I know shit when I see it. I know Shinola, whatever that is. But, you know. But I think in this time, you know, this fever's gonna break. Cause these are a bunch of incompetence. It's like we took the.

[Jordan Klepper]

You feel, so you have hope.

[George Saunders]

You see that somehow, I think what happened was we took the most pugilistic, simplistic, strange people in the high school and put them in charge of the prom, you know, But, I mean, people got behind that. They did and they did. And that, to me, is the one thing, sort of intellectually I'm trying to work on. How did that happen? You know, that so many people, many of whom I know and like, and I know you've met a good many. How did they make that decision and that. I don't know.

[Jordan Klepper]

You wrote an amazing essay in the New Yorker in 2016. You went to MAGA Rallies and Events to sort of take a look at what was happening to America at that time, and you ended it. Question. I'm paraphrasing here, but that you saw America as a fragile place and you feared. You never thought it could potentially dissolve or crumble in your lifetime. And you were questioning that then. Yeah, we are now in 2026. Like, is there any addendums to that feeling?

[George Saunders]

No, no, I'm still going. What's happening? Yeah. No, I mean. I mean, the one thing that struck me on that, it was probably in 2016, I went to four or five rallies, and I just couldn't believe the extent of the siloing, you know, Like, I. So I write for the New Yorker, and sometimes in a moment of weakness, I might drop that fact at a party, you know, just to feel better about my show.

[Jordan Klepper]

So thank you for admitting that. So many people come on the show,

they don't admit it. Yeah, thank you.

[Desi]

But.

[George Saunders]

So I'm at these rallies, and I'm feeling very insecure, you know, because, I

[Jordan Klepper]

mean, that doesn't get you very far

in a Trump rally.

Trust me.

[George Saunders]

That's right. Yeah.

[Jordan Klepper]

Yeah.

[George Saunders]

I don't feel so good.

[Jordan Klepper]

You know David Remnick? Do you know Jill Lepore?

[Paramount Announcer]

Do you.

[George Saunders]

It doesn't get you anywhere. Well, and I mean, kind of the anti punchline is not a single person knew what it was, which is fair enough. But I'd never before realized how divided we were. And so I think part of the answer to this is that we're getting different media fees. Like I said somewhere that, you know, if I go to fight with my anti Trump uncle, we could just put two TVs in there, you know, put Fox on this one, MSNBC on this one, and we could leave the room and talk about something we know something about, you know, so there's something going on there. But I think the first order of business is to be firm in what we know is right and our highest vision of the country, which is everybody's welcome. When you're here, you're going to get all the rights, you're going to get every right and I'm going to fight for them. No matter who you are or what you are. Those are pretty good ideas and they've been corrupted by this crew. But I think it's going to fall away. And then, and my kind of. I had a Buddhist teacher once who said despair is a more dangerous emotion than even anger. So to keep myself out of despair, I'm saying, well, when this crumbles and it's going to do so and it's going to be pretty catastrophic, then those of us who are of the spirit could fill the void with an even better version. Because this thing is now, it's been discredited in so many ways that it's just, it's basically standing up on one very shaky leg and it's going to go down.

[Jordan Klepper]

It's going to go down.

[George Saunders]

I think so. So that's my prediction.

[Jordan Klepper]

George Saunders, I gotta tell you, it truly is. It is a

wonderful book from one

of my favorite minds in this good old strange, beautiful country with bad water. But there's good water out there somewhere. There is. George Saunders, everybody.

[Donald Trump]

New book is official.

[Jordan Klepper]

Go get it. We're gonna take a quick break.

Be right back after this.

[I]

My day kicks off with a refreshing Celsius energy drink, then straight to the gym. Pre K pickup back home to meal prep. Time for my fire station shift. One more Celsius. Gotta keep the lights on when the three alarm hits. I'm ready. Celsius live fit. Go grab a cold refreshing Celsius at your local retailer or locate [e-mail].

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[Jordan Klepper]

That's our show for tonight. Now here it is. Your moment is in.

There's only one day a year that

[Morning Anchor]

a morning anchor gets to say this,

[Paramount Announcer]

so humor me of the morning to you. Top of the morning to you.

[Jordan Klepper]

Top of the morning to you.

Top of the morning to you.

Top of the morning to you.

[George Saunders]

I can't do Irish.

[Jordan Klepper]

Good morning folks.

[George Saunders]

How was that?

[Care.com Announcer]

Was I still your Irish accent?

[George Saunders]

I always try to do an Irish accent. I can never pull it off. I always sounded like a pirate.

[Desi]

Top of the morning to you.

[Jordan Klepper]

Ah, there you go.

You might end up in a montage.

[Comedy Central Announcer]

Explore more shows from the Daily Show Podcast universe by searching the Daily Show. Wherever you get your podcast, watch the Daily show weeknights at 1110 Central on Comedy Central and stream full episodes anytime on Paramount. Plus,

This has been a Comedy Central podcast.

[Morning Anchor]

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[Howie Mandel]

u n d hey, it's Howie Mandel and I am inviting you to witness history as me and my How We Do It Gaming team take on Gilly The King and Wallow 267's million dollars GAM Epic Global Gaming League Video Game Showdown. Four rounds, multiple games, one winner, plus a halftime performance by multi platinum artist Travy McCoy. Watch all the action and see who wins and advances to the championship match against Neo right [e-mail] that's globalgamingleague.com everybody games.