Deb Williams: Hollywood with Burt Reynolds & History with Earnhardt

Summary

The Dale Jr. Download
Episode: Deb Williams: Hollywood with Burt Reynolds & History with Earnhardt
Release Date: September 3, 2025
Host: Dale Earnhardt Jr. | Guest: Deb Williams

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Dale Earnhardt Jr. welcomes Deb Williams, a pioneering motorsports journalist with over four decades in NASCAR. Fresh off her selection for the prestigious Squire Hall Award, Deb shares captivating stories that trace both her personal journey—from a racing-obsessed child in North Carolina to a trailblazer in NASCAR media—and the evolution of the sport itself. The episode traverses grassroots racing, behind-the-scenes Hollywood encounters, the challenges faced as a woman in a male-dominated industry, and insightful commentary on NASCAR’s present and future.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Deb Williams' Early Life & Racing Upbringing

(02:54–07:58)

• Deb began covering weekly races in Asheville, NC during the 1970s (02:54).
• Grew up immersed in the racing culture of Canton, NC. Her first memories of the racetrack trace back to age four.

  "The only place mother and daddy could get me to quit crying and sleep till I was a year old was under the loudspeaker in the infield at Asheville Weaverville when it was dirt." — Deb Williams (04:55)

• She recounts the era when local service stations doubled as team garages and improvisational tracks popped up for short-lived seasons.

2. Witnessing NASCAR’s Growth (and Its Grassroots)

(07:58–15:30)

• Deb and Dale reminisce about the abundance of “ghost tracks” scattered through North Carolina, highlighting the fleeting yet foundational nature of grassroots racing venues (09:13–11:48).
• She describes racing at baseball fields and how those improvisational tracks gave the region its racing DNA.

3. Breaking into NASCAR as a Writer

(19:31–24:27)

• After college, Deb worked for United Press International, one of two global news wire services at the time.
• She describes the unique demands and access her job provided, allowing her to cover momentous events and iconic personalities.

4. Hollywood Meets NASCAR: Stroker Ace, Burt Reynolds, and More

(20:46–24:27)

• Deb recalls covering the filming of Stroker Ace with Burt Reynolds at Charlotte, bringing NASCAR a "Hollywood magic" that broadened its appeal:

  “...it brought that Hollywood magic. And I was given, like, 20 minutes with him. That was all I had, 20 minutes during a lunch break. ...he talked about how he was impressed by the people in the sport and their hard work ethic...” — Deb Williams (23:35)

• Discusses the real-life inspirations behind NASCAR movies like Stroker Ace, Six Pack, and Days of Thunder, connecting moments in film to actual events in racing history.

5. Being a Woman in NASCAR Media

(26:37–34:20)

• Deb recounts the sexism prevalent in NASCAR's earlier days, including being handed a press pass at Darlington labeled “No Women Allowed in Pits” (26:37, 26:55).

  “When I got in the press box and I saw him and that was on my press pass, I chewed him out." — Deb Williams on confronting a PR rep over discriminatory policy (01:14, 27:35)

• Shares how corporate America’s entry into NASCAR began to change gender dynamics, as women executives demanded better treatment and access for women reporters and family members.
• Anecdotes about the struggles and camaraderie among drivers' wives, including tales of negotiating basic access and respect.

6. Covering Some of NASCAR’s Most Pivotal Moments

(39:35–42:11)

• She recounts covering Richard Petty’s monumental 200th win—complete with a presidential visit from Ronald Reagan and an iconic picnic under a tent at Daytona (39:35).

  “...the first time a sitting president had ever attended a NASCAR race. ...Reagan gave the command to start engines from Air Force One.” — Deb Williams (40:47)

7. From Journalism to PR and Back

(42:57–54:59)

• Talks about her transition from reporter/editor to team PR, revealing the demanding behind-the-scenes reality of modern driver schedules.

  "I stood up and apologized to all the PR reps for not asking to schedule interviews far enough ahead of time because I just didn't understand their world…” — Deb Williams (43:39)

• Observes how increased professionalism, corporate sponsorships, and the proliferation of team PR staff have transformed the media landscape.

8. The Ethics and Realities of Motorsports Journalism

(46:22–54:59)

• Deb candidly admits to mistakes made, notably attributing the “vanilla-ization” of drivers to NASCAR, only to later realize it was driven by sponsor (corporate) pressure (46:57).
• She discusses difficult relationships, including a multi-year standoff with Junior Johnson, and how conflicts between journalists, drivers, and team owners often span years but can eventually be resolved.

9. On NASCAR’s Current Challenges and the Lawsuit

(56:03–63:00)

• Delivers thoughtful analysis of the ongoing NASCAR vs. 23XI/Front Row Motorsports lawsuit over the charter system, expressing empathy for both the France family's legacy and the necessity of adaption:

  “...when you have a private company and you've seen one family devote their life to building that company...to come in and then tear that company down...” — Deb Williams (56:31)

• Offers insights into how regional culture, jury selection, and personality differences could affect the case’s outcome, comparing this clash to “two mules that have dug their heels in” (62:20).

10. The Evolution of Race Cars, Playoff Formats, and Media Responsibility

(66:03–73:51)

• Deb emphasizes that critique of race car design has existed since the sport’s inception, and notes the media’s obligation to investigate, not just echo, driver and crew grievances (67:12).

  "In racing, there's four to five sides to every story." — Deb Williams (67:12)

• She voices support for the continuation (though not necessarily the current format) of the playoff system, noting its value for storylines and excitement (72:49).
• Discusses the need for separation between reporting and opinion in motorsports journalism.

11. Personal Highlights and Relationships in the Industry

(73:51–77:04)

• On favorite interviewees: Richard Petty, Cale Yarborough, Bobby Allison, Harry Gant (“I get more calls from people like you”)—while noting Dale Earnhardt Sr. could be “all business” if crossed (74:12–75:25).
• She details nuanced relationships, and how working alongside legends changed her view of them, especially as she moved from fandom to respected peer.

12. Behind the Scenes of “Becoming Earnhardt”

(76:33–82:24)

• Deb recounts her involvement in the “Becoming Earnhardt” series, praising its insight into Dale Sr.’s transformation, and reflecting on the complex emotions around Rod Osterlund’s sale of the team.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On gender barriers in the press:
  “When I got in the press box and I saw him and that was on my press pass, I chewed him out."
  —Deb Williams (01:14)

• On racing’s early culture:
  “Every service station had a race car in the bay that ran a hobby car or something.”
  —Deb Williams (07:59)

• On media’s changing relationship with the sport:
  “When I first started covering it, there were no motor coaches. There were no lounges in front of the transporters...you got your stories by building relationships...”
  —Deb Williams (43:20)

• On learning from the PR side:
  “I stood up and apologized to all the PR reps for not asking to schedule interviews far enough ahead of time because I just didn't understand their world.”
  —Deb Williams (43:39)

• On covering history:
  “Reagan gave the command to start engines from Air Force One. ...And then seeing Air Force One land at the Daytona airport as the cars are racing was just a gorgeous sight.”
  —Deb Williams (40:47)

• On mistakes and evolving perspective:
  “I wrote about how NASCAR was trying to make the drivers vanilla...after I went to work for a race team, I discovered it wasn't NASCAR that was doing it, it was the sponsors.”
  —Deb Williams (46:57)

• On the ongoing charter lawsuit:
  “To come in and then tear that company down...seeing one family that's devoted 77 years of their lives through generations to build this...”
  —Deb Williams (56:31)

• On the evolution of race cars and the media’s job:
  “You probably know more about those cars and those engines than any of the reporters...”
  —Advice to Deb on the necessity of technical understanding (67:12)

• On Dale Earnhardt Sr.’s transformation:
  “A lot of people don't realize how much Dale changed, man, from the late 70s and early 80s.”
  —Deb Williams (77:08)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Breaking barriers as a woman in NASCAR: 26:37–34:20
• Hollywood descends on NASCAR: Burt Reynolds and Stroker Ace: 20:46–24:27
• The day President Reagan attended Daytona: 39:35–42:11
• Transitioning from journalism to PR: 42:57–54:59
• Discussion on the current charter lawsuit: 56:03–63:00
• Opinions on racing’s evolving formats and the media's role: 66:03–73:51
• Personal standout personalities in racing: 73:51–77:04
• Reflections on “Becoming Earnhardt” and Dale Sr.: 76:33–82:24

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Tone and Takeaways

The conversation is candid, nostalgic, and rich with the texture of lived experience in NASCAR’s inner circles. Deb’s tone is accessible and story-driven—she weaves deep knowledge with humility, humor, and honesty.

Above all, this episode is a testament to how much the sport has changed (and what was hard-won to get here) through the lens of someone who’s seen—and helped shape—NASCAR history from the inside.

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For listeners and fans:
If you’re fascinated by the intersection of history, culture, and racing—or simply want to better understand how NASCAR grew into an American powerhouse—this episode is essential listening. Deb Williams’s stories offer an invaluable perspective rarely found in the box scores or news blurbs.

Transcript

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

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[Deb Williams]

Yeah, J. Wells was the PR person for Harry Gantz. And when I got in the press box and I saw him and that was on my press pass, I chewed him out.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

The following is a production of Dirty Mo Media. All right everybody, it's Dale Jr. Here at the Dale Jr. Download and this week's guest is Deb Williams. Deb Williams has worked in NASCAR for decades and just recently she won the. Let's see here. I want to make sure I get this right, the Squire Hall Award. And that is an award obviously named after Ken Squire given to a journalist or someone in the media who's outstanding in their field. That was a special announcement made at Darlington. She's also the two time recipient of the National Motorsports Press Association George Cunningham Writer of the Year Award. She's a two time winner of the Miller Motorsports Award of Excellence, the first female reporter inducted into the National Motorsports Press association hall of Fame. She's gonna have some stories, so I'm excited to talk to Deb. She's helped us out on a lot of projects. You might have heard her on the last season of becoming Earnhardt, but either way, this will be a lot of fun seeing what kind of cool stories she's got to tell us. Let's bring her in the room, Deb Williams on Dale Jr. Download. So, Deb Williams, I've been looking forward to this conversation. So I guess my first question for you is, when did you first start working in racing?

[Deb Williams]

I first started working as reporter in racing in the 1970s during the summer when I was working for the newspaper in Waynesville, North Carolina. And I would cover the weekly races on Friday night at the third mile Asheville track.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Asheville Weaver?

[Deb Williams]

Well, no, Asheville Weaver. That was New Asheville Speedway.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

New Asheville up in.

[Deb Williams]

On Amboy Road, down by the river where Jack Ingram had his shop. And so I was over there with Jack Ingram and Harry Gant and Bob Presley.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

My gosh.

[Deb Williams]

Yeah.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Where did you live in that area?

[Deb Williams]

I did. I grew up in Canton, North Carolina.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Okay. All right. So. All right. So you start your racing career in racing? I guess started around that time, but. All right, so let's. Now that I know that, I kind of want to dial back.

[Deb Williams]

Okay.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Your family had you around racing as a child, though you went to. You were at Asheville Weaver Speedway as a baby?

[Deb Williams]

Yes. In fact, they were going, when mother was pregnant with me, to the races.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

They were just fans.

[Deb Williams]

Well, daddy was a machinist in the paper mill there and always loved cars. And basically there were two things that mattered in that area, cars and football. And my cousin who was in high school with Bosco Lowe, they started the asphalt gladiators, which was the group of teenagers that were into cars. And they were there to educate people about cars and car maintenance. And if somebody was stranded on the road, they would help them. And they were also the ones that put on the car show every Labor Day.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Car show?

[Deb Williams]

Yeah.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Like just hot rods or anything you wanted, just pull out.

[Deb Williams]

Yeah, yeah. You know, candy apple reds cars and all. And my cousin actually went on and won top rod in the Nation in 1972. He had a roadster that he had fixed and detailed, and its name was sweet thing.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

My gosh.

[Deb Williams]

So the only place mother and daddy could get me to quit crying and sleep till I was a year old was under the loudspeaker in the infield at Asheville Weaverville. When it was dirt.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Yeah, yeah. You would go to racetracks around the area with your dad. When did you start to remember? What's your earliest memory of being around a racetrack or around race cars?

[Deb Williams]

About four years old. I remember sitting on it was either the hood or the trunk of the car. Both Turns 1 and 2 at Asheville Weaverville when it was dirt. And then in the late 50s, like 58, 59, 4 or 5 years old was when Frankenhilda Presley fielded a car for Ralph Earnhardt. Grandfather and Frankenhill had been in high school with my parents. And, you know, Presley's garage at the foot of the Canton Hill was a place to go. And when Frank was working on cars in the body shop during the day, he would roll Ralph's race car out front. And that's the first race car I ever touched.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

And what did it look like?

[Deb Williams]

Oh, well, it just. I just remember it wasn't brightly painted. It had a number on it, and it had beat up, been beat up a little bit. And I just put my hands up on the passenger side and pulled myself up and looked inside of it and bare minimums, you know, nothing fancy. And then what was really cool was when one year, one summer, the Asheville tourists didn't come to Asheville to play minor league baseball, and they turned the baseball park into a racetrack and the flag stand was at home plate. And I believe that was when Ralph put Dickie Plemons in the dugout.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Right, that picture, that. That famous photo. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've seen that picture 100,000 times, and I have no, I had no idea forever what the story was behind it. Yeah, but it wasn't uncommon for them to race at baseball fields.

[Deb Williams]

No.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

It seems so strange to me. I can't even visualize what it would look like to see some coops running around the, you know, the outer stretches of the. I guess they would run way out by the wall.

[Deb Williams]

I mean, right out to the infield. Yeah, they would. The flag stand, like I said, was at home plate. And then they would come down and go by the dugout at near first base and go on out in the outfield.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

How did it not destroy this ballpark, not rut it up? And I guess.

[Deb Williams]

Well, back then, everybody would just, oh, I want to build a racetrack. And they'd get their bulldozers out and, you know, build one. I can remember one down on Jonathan Creek in Haywood county, ran one summer, and somebody just carved out a round circle in the field and put up clapboard fence and charged admission for it. And it ran one summer.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

That was it.

[Deb Williams]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, back then you'd go by service stations and just about everybody had. You know, every service station had a race car in the bay that ran a hobby car or something. Yeah. Local track.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Yeah, there's a lot of. I've done a. Me and Matthew Dillner, coincidentally, had a very fond passion for Documenting locations of some of these ghost tracks and stuff. And there's racetracks hidden in all the woods throughout North Carolina. You know, that to your point, that probably aren't even documented, really, that ran just one summer or ran one or two years and then disappeared into the landscape.

[Deb Williams]

My house is actually built on an old speedway where Concord.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Really? Yeah, the original Concord.

[Deb Williams]

It's the one that started out, I think as Harris Speedway and it became Concord and it's where they ran until the late 70s when the furs built the one down on 601 South. But yeah, my house sits on part of the old first turn and my street runs through the. What was the Enfield. And if you go behind the houses across the street from me and look, you can see the outlines of the backstretch. Really, if you know it.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Yeah, if you know what you're looking at. Yeah, that's the stuff that I love is like, we used to. I tell this story sometimes, but one of my favorite memories, I went out with dad to what I think was the last race at Riverside. And during the weekend, it was like Friday or Saturday after practice, we rode by the location of the old Ontario Speedway. This was in late, late 80s. And dad's like, yep, there it is. And I'm looking at it and it's just a bare field partially developed. And he's like, that bank right there is turn three. And I'm like, oh, damn. You know, now I can kind of see it.

[Deb Williams]

Yeah.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

And you know, so that stuff, seeing that stuff and knowing that stuff still exists. There's a. There's a strip in Daytona that's probably only a block long of the original paved road of the beach course that's still, it's all original. And there was these two houses. So if you, if you look at this old photo, it's an aerial of the original beach course taken from what would be the north turn side. Way down, midway down that paved road on the paved side is two houses. They're the only two houses, the first two houses that got built out there and they were built by one of the racers that ran bikes, motor motocross or whatever you would call it back then. But it wasn't one of the stock car drivers, but it was a well to do biker or motocross racer or whatever because they used to race bikes out there too. And he built these two houses and one of the houses is still there and it's on that little strip of road. And I think having him, him having, you know, coincidentally built those houses is what allowed that road, that little strip of road that's the only part left of the original paved part of the beach course, to survive. That kind of stuff really is fascinating to me.

[Deb Williams]

Well, what's really cool is one of my neighbors, there's a bank behind his house, and that's where the grandstand was. He doesn't know it, and it's not as. It's not as high as it was when I first moved there, but one of my neighbors was over the water sewer for Concord and then in Cabarrus county, and he got me a plat of the old racetrack and. Which was one day when they were having a race. It's an aerial photo. And then he got it to mark off to where you can see where your houses were in relation to the track. So it's really cool.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

That is pretty cool. Yeah, I bet. Now, I know there's been a lot of dirt turned over around that area since those days, but I bet somewhere down in the earth there's some stuff to be found, some metal detecting to do. But anyways, you know, when you were young, your family's going to the racetrack, you know, you were a teenager, you began attending races like Daytona, Rockingham, Charlotte. Talk to me about, like, this is when, you know, NASCAR and stock car racing was very young. You know, it wasn't a. It wasn't a popular, you know, iconic sport that it is today. How did you get. How did you get drawn to it? What was it like? I suppose being on the front end of something that would now, you know, become one of the biggest sports in. In the nation. How was it. What was it like to kind of be there? My. If, you know, if time travel had existed, my favorite thing that I think I would love to do is to. Is to go to the garage in, you know, pick a year, 74, 76, somewhere in the 70s, and walk around in the garage on a Saturday or a Friday and just watch, you know, people work and watch the drivers do what they do and people just. Because it would have been. It wouldn't have been nothing like it is today. Probably nobody there other than the people that were necessary. And so, I mean, I imagine it was even more stripped down, you know, in those early days in the 60s.

[Deb Williams]

It was. And the interesting thing about it was, you know, it really wasn't a place for a child.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Right.

[Deb Williams]

But daddy. And there were no restrooms. You know, it was outside toilets type thing.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

What do you mean?

[Deb Williams]

Well, you know, if they had anything in the infield, it was a concrete Building and just like an outside toilet.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Yeah.

[Deb Williams]

And so daddy would say, okay, go to the bathroom before you leave the house because you can't go again until you get back because there's nowhere for you to go at the racetrack. And so he decided that when I was 10, he would try me at Bristol. Bristol was two hours away and mother would go with us and he would see how I did there at Bristol. So I wasn't allowed to go to a super speedway until I was 13. And he decided when I was 13, then I could take care of myself at the superspeedways. But that was the year, the only family vacation we ever went on, we went to Daytona that July for the Firecracker 400.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

What year?

[Deb Williams]

1967.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Damn.

[Deb Williams]

And started at 10 in the morning. And then that was also the year we went to Martinsville. We made it a weekend. Mother, Daddy and I went up the Blue Ridge Parkway to Mount Airy, spent the night in Mount Airy and then went over to Martinsville the next day and go to Rockingham. And see, daddy worked in the mill, so he had to be at work at seven in the morning. And Charlotte was three hour drive, Rockingham was four hour drive. And I can remember one time the three of us drove to Rockingham, sat outside the first turn while it rained until they called the race and then turned around, drove four hours back. But they happened to have it right. Rescheduled on the week of the state football playoffs. So daddy and I went to the state football playoffs and then spent the night with my sister and brother in law in Raleigh and then went to Rockingham and then swung back home. But the first time I ever saw Charlotte Motor Speedway, I was 13. And I fell in love with the area and promised myself that day that I would once live in the area and work in stock car racing.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

What was different about that area versus where you grew up? Just being close to the industry.

[Deb Williams]

Industry, really? Yeah. Because, you know, I had a first cousin that lived in Charlotte and it was known as the stock car racing capital of the world then. And Holman and Moody was here. You heard about Holman and Moody all the time.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

You're a child. What do you. I mean, I have a sister that's.

[Deb Williams]

11 years older than me. Yeah, all right. But.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

But I just.

[Deb Williams]

I was a daddy's girl. I grew up around car garages and racetracks and horse shows and football fields and, you know, but it was funny. It was. I mean, he had me sitting on a car helping him wax the car. As soon as I was old enough to hold a rag and wipe the cleaner and all off of it. So it was just very intriguing to me. It was exciting. You know, I liked the excitement, the adrenaline rush, the noise. I mean, everything about it. I just loved it.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

What were some of the drivers, I think that be curious to know what were some of the drivers that were fascinating to you then?

[Deb Williams]

It was interesting because throughout our family, on mother's side of the family, everybody had different drivers. I had a cousin that was a Fireball Roberts fan. I initially was a Rex White fan and then became. I paid more attention. There was Ned Jarrett, I thought I was his nickname of Gentleman Ned was interesting. And then Curtis Turner was viewed as the bad boy in the family. But then probably when I was about 12 or 13, was when I became a Richard Petty fan and stayed a Richard Petty fan throughout my high school years and all. And had a Plymouth racing jacket that I wore to junior high that got stolen out of my locker one day. Oh, damn, I got it back.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

How'd you find out?

[Deb Williams]

It was a fella I ended up dating later on that took it.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Holy crap.

[Deb Williams]

But they were just teasing me, you know, and it was funny. The civics teacher was a big race fan in the ninth grade, too. And so when it was announced that Richard Petty was going to Ford in 1969, he. He had sat. He had study hall first period, and he had sat in his classroom. His father was actually a state senator, and he had sat in his classroom and he drew cartoons of Richard Petty going to Ford and had put. He knew where my locker was. And when I went to my locker for locker break and I opened up my door, there were all those cartoons he had drawn pasted on my locker door. And then we had physical science in the ninth grade, and Mr. McFall was the teacher. And the day we took our final exam, he had the Indy 500 on. On the radio. We were taking our final exam, but we had the thing that stands out in addition to that that year. It's funny to look back on it now, but we had a chapter on internal combustion engines and I had the highest score in the class on the test. On the internal combustion engine test. And all the guys got mad.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

That was a big deal for a guy like Richard Petty to announce his moving from one manufacturer to another. We've kind of gone away from how that would affect people. So it would be so impactful, you know, to fans, because the loyalty to the brand or the manufacturer back then was a big deal, you know, that factory support you graduated, I guess you worked as a sports editor at the Mountaineer in Waynesville, North Carolina. After graduation, you went and took a position at the United Press International.

[Deb Williams]

Well, actually, that was after college and I went back to Waynesville and was the sports editor and the court and law enforcement reporter at the Waynesville paper. When I went to United Press International.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

What is United Press International?

[Deb Williams]

Well, at that time, there were two international wire services. They were the Associated Press and United Press International. And they serviced the newspapers, radio and TV stations. And that's what I tell people now is the Internet is just a wire service that goes into everybody's home. You know, whereas before the wire service was the papers, radio, TV stations would pay to get that wire service. And that's how they would get their national and international news while they focused on their local news. And we had state bureaus and we were located as a regional. Our regional headquarters was Atlanta. Our company headquarters was New York. We had foreign bureaus. And it was crazy. Had a message wire for the entire company. And you always had to say when you were shutting down or opening. And one day I was working and there was a message came across the wire from the Beirut bureau and it said shutting down, getting bombed. So you were just right on the edge of everything.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

You got to interview Burt Reynolds.

[Deb Williams]

I did, yeah. That was when they were filming Stroker Race.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Really?

[Deb Williams]

Yeah. And they were at Charlotte Motor Speedway filming that day.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Great movie.

[Deb Williams]

Yeah, I liked it. I loved your dad racing gurneys.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Yeah, I know.

[Deb Williams]

It really didn't seem like a movie because you knew some people that were in it, you know, and you know, the, the big contract that he had in there, that's a spoof on the Darrell Waltrip Die Guard contract.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Okay.

[Deb Williams]

Yeah, yeah, that's what, that's a spoof.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

You know, people, people can be. I don't know that people are that critical of Struck Race these days because it's, you know, it's from the 80s, but people have got. There was a little churned up mud from some opinions, rough opinions about Talladega Knights. But I look at Stroker Ace. So Stroker Ace, to me, I know that it's a comedy. Right, Exactly. You gotta know that it's a comedy and know that it's going to have goofy things going on in it when you're, when you get up to watch it. But it's a really, really funny movie and it would be probably pretty awesome to watch it with somebody like yourself, because I bet you would see much like that contract, a lot of Things in there that are connected to the true life of what NASCAR was back in those days. Whereas, like, you know, with, you know, like the same way that Days of Thunder is very tailored toward Tim Richmond, Rick Hendrick and that sort of storyline.

[Deb Williams]

Right.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

I bet there's a lot of funny things in there. Struck Race is a lot of fun. I also like Six Pack. I thought Six Pack was a good movie.

[Deb Williams]

And you know what Six Pack's kind of based on. Loosely based on was when Walter Ballard had joy knuckles and all those as kids when they were. And they, you know, they were out at Riverside, and Bill Gazaway said, well, just stay under the car because you're not of legal age to be in the garage. That's very loosely based on. Really? Yeah.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

I didn't know that.

[Deb Williams]

Yeah.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Yeah. I love that. I love both of those movies. So when you got to interview Burt about. I guess you were asking him about the movie being a part of the movie. He's. He's coming off of. Let's see, he's coming off and Cannonball Run and all these great. You know, he's a big deal.

[Deb Williams]

Yeah.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

What was that like, I suppose, for the sport of the industry, I guess, to have somebody of Bert. I know. I know the connection with how needham and the 33 car and. And all of that. And Bert was a part owner in that deal. His name on the seat post of that car that Harry Gint drove in. 81, 82. But what was it like, I guess, for the sport, the industry, the buzz to have Burt Reynolds and them making a movie?

[Deb Williams]

It was a very. It brought attention, you know, a different group of people, and it brought that Hollywood magic. And I was given, like, 20 minutes with him. That was all I had, 20 minutes during a lunch break. And it was like. So I went back to when I first started where I would write my questions down in the back of my notebook so that I'd make sure I ask everything. And he was very nice, very polite, and he talked about how he was impressed by the people in the sport and their hard work ethic and everything. And so, yeah, it brought a magic, I would say, to the sport, created a lot of eyes on it, that people had not paid really attention to it before. It put a little glamour in the sport is what it did.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Yeah. A lot of things that happened in that movie that are very relatable.

[Deb Williams]

Yeah. And Days of Thunder, I can pretty much pinpoint to you where all it happened.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Yeah.

[Deb Williams]

Yeah. Because, you know, like, where they're eating ice cream. Says, don't pit. We're eating ice cream. That was at Darlington when Benny Parsons was in the car and Harry Hyde was crew chief.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Yeah. No kidding.

[Deb Williams]

Yeah.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

When do you feel like, you know, you. You got your, you know, your first kind of big break, I guess, to get involved in nascar, to get to start doing NASCAR full time?

[Deb Williams]

Well, UPI was really what gave me the foot in the door, because.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Upi.

[Deb Williams]

United Press International. Yeah, yeah. You know, because like I said back then, there were two wire services going head to head against each other, the Associated Press and United Press International. And people knew that if they got you to write a story on them, it was going to go to all the newspapers, radio and TV stations. You gave them outlets they didn't have through a lot of things. And that was also when I got to cover more big stories in the six years I was with UPI than probably a lot of people get to cover in a career. But that gave me the door. That opened the door for me.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Were you covering other things other than sports?

[Deb Williams]

Yes. Yeah.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Was there ever a story that you covered where that, like, really left an impact on you outside of nascar, outside of motorsports, like.

[Deb Williams]

A couple of them, really. The deployment of the 82nd to Grenada. I was at Fort Bragg for that deployment. And the Dr. Jeffrey McDonald trial, which was what the movie in the book Fatal Vision was based on, those two, you know, and you were always. We were on call 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. So you might. There was one time I covered four stories in three cities in 48 hours. And, you know, but still at the top of the list was covering Richard Petty's 200th win for UPI.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

So your first time being able to pick up a media credential was at Darlington. And there was it on the credential, it said, no women allowed.

[Deb Williams]

Yeah, that was Labor Day, 1980.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

1980.

[Deb Williams]

Yeah. No women allowed in pits. Yeah.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

You were an exception.

[Deb Williams]

Well, I didn't really need to go in the pits that day, but it was interesting because J. Wells was helping out at. Jay Wells was the PR person for Harry Gant for many years on smoking, I mean, in the U.S. tobacco. And he was PR at Rockingham at that time. But he was down at Darlington that year helping Bill Kaiser, who was running PR at Darlington. And he was in the press box. And when I got in the press box and I saw him, and that was on my press pass, I chewed him out. And he's up there going, we're not talking about women like you we're not talking about women like you.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

You chewed him out.

[Deb Williams]

Yeah.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Really?

[Deb Williams]

Yeah. And so the next time I went back, it wasn't on the other day.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

I hear you. You know, how. How do you feel like, you know, NASCAR has certainly had an evolution over the last. Over my. My. My time around the sport. And if I look at, you know, if I really look back into the 60s and 70s, that evolution has just always been constant. You know, what. What's. I guess, what's that been like for you as a female to. To see the sport sort of adjust and shift away from, you know, some of those policies that just didn't make sense. Such as? Just, like, having that on the pit pass is pretty. Pretty. Feels ridiculous today. But there was a time when, like, someone might look at that and not bat an eye. Right. But today it sounds silly.

[Deb Williams]

Yeah. Well, it's just like, women weren't allowed on pit road.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Yeah.

[Deb Williams]

You know, at Indianapolis and back in the 50s and all. But, you know, I. It was when corporate America started coming into the sport that it started to change because you had women executives in corporate America. And I just don't. I look at a lot of these young people coming along now that didn't have the. To deal with some of the things that my generation dealt with, and I just look at them and think, I wish you could understand, so that you could be more appreciative of the changes that have occurred.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Yeah.

[Deb Williams]

You know, because they take everything for granted.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Sure.

[Deb Williams]

And it's just like when I started covering at Darlington, there was one bathroom in the press box.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Yeah.

[Deb Williams]

There was one that rocked. One bathroom at Rockingham. Martinsville didn't even have bathrooms in the press box. And the first track that had men and women's bathrooms in the press box was North Wilkesboro, which I have always found amusing. But Clay Earl's. And he was. I just say he was so cute because he had to be in his 80s. And it wasn't the current press box. It was the previous press box at Martinsville. He comes to me and he says, I'm thinking about building some bathrooms here in the press box. And he said, but, you know, there's not enough women. I really can't afford to have a men and a women's. I can have two, but do you have a problem with using the same bathroom that the men use? I said, clay, as long as you put a lock on the door, I'm fine. I said, we all travel together. We're all at the same hotels. We're like brothers. And sisters, anyway. But I said, as long as you have. And you could tell he was very embarrassed. You could tell he was very embarrassed about having to ask me about it, you know? But, yeah, I told him. I said, as long as you have a lock on it, then that's fine.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

What, you knew a lot of the driver's wives in the garage, you know, what was your relationship, I suppose, like with them? And who were some of the. Who were some of the wives that you kind of got along with the best?

[Deb Williams]

Linda Petty and I got really close, and Linda was the one that helped me the most and made the wives feel comfortable with me, that I wasn't there looking for a husband or looking for a boyfriend or anything like that. And it was my first speed weeks. My first Speed Weeks was 1984, and I was doing a story on Stephanie Brooks, who was Dick Brooks wife at the time. And that was when the Winston Cup Racing Wives Auxiliary had the annual fashion show across the street at Verdine's at the Volusia Mall.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Good Lord.

[Deb Williams]

And Linda Petty was the president of the auxiliary at that time. And when I went over there to interview Stephanie Brooks, and Linda was introducing me, and Linda Petty goes, I've known Debbie since she was just this high. And it was like, okay, Linda Petty has given her endorsement. She's okay. You know? And that was. That was one thing that I really enjoyed. And we also ran when I was at what became probably better known as NASCAR Winston cup scene, but when Griggs Publishing still owned it and it was Winston cup scene, When Todd came into the sport as a sponsor, we had a feature that they sponsored once a month called Women in Racing. And that's when I really got to know a lot of the wives and all. And then the wives felt like they could come and talk to me about things and tell me things if they felt their husbands were being treated unjustly.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Really? Wow. Did that ever happen?

[Deb Williams]

Well, I mean, Judy Parrott, who was Buddy Parrott's wife, Judy told me about one time they had complained about wanting a grandstand for the family at some track.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Yeah.

[Deb Williams]

And she said, buddy came home and said, judy, please don't say anything again. We had trouble getting through inspection this week. And, you know, when Carolyn Rudd started handling sponsors and stuff for Ricky, she couldn't get into the garage. She was signing contracts through the fence.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Damn.

[Deb Williams]

So, yeah, it was interesting listening to their stories. And I know Darrell wanted Stevie to do his gas mileage.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Yeah.

[Deb Williams]

And so what they did, they thought would keep her out of the Pits, they made her get a crew license and they thought, well, if we take one license away from the crew, one of the crew members, then they won't want her in there. They'll want to put it back on a crew member. But yeah, I know that Linda Rudd, Ricky's wife, told me one time about a gate guard not gonna let her into the garage. And she had Ricky's water and wet towels, and she just took the ice water and threw it on the gate guards and kept going. But she went to Humpy then and told Humpy Wheeler what had happened. She said, you know, I never saw that gate guard again. Yeah, but yeah, I saw a gate guard push Patty Petty.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Damn.

[Deb Williams]

At Daytona.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Damn. Kyle's wife.

[Deb Williams]

Yeah.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Yeah.

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[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

You talk about covering Richard's 200th win. I was there that day. Luckily, I remember the big tent after the race and the president, Ronald Reagan. I remember everybody eating KFC chicken out of a box. And I remember dad. So usually, you know, you had to be ready to go when the race was over. Dad was going to be moving, and you had to be where you were supposed to be. And. But this particular day, dad had a whole different disposition, and the race was over. Hadn't been a very great race for dad, but he gets his clothes changed, it's kind of somewhat cleaned up, and he's like, all right, we're gonna go over this tent. We're all gonna eat, we're gonna sit down. President's gonna be there. And we were one row or one table away, probably 15ft from Ronald Reagan. And while he and Richard and I think Bobby Allison and a couple other people sat around and, I mean, it was. Must have been 90. Felt like. I mean, this is, like, all kind of a blur, but it must have been, like a hundred people under this tent eating in big, long tables, you know, like a picnic. What do you remember from. From that particular day and covering that?

[Deb Williams]

Well, first it started out, there was Secret Service at the gates, and we didn't have the fancy laptops and all that we have now. I had a TSR model 100 called Trash 80 from Radio Shack was what I was using. And the Secret Service word processor, it didn't even process words.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

What was it, just a typewriter or something?

[Deb Williams]

Well, it was electronic. You. You could send stuff over the telephone lines. Back then we were having to the water. When you had the really bad rainstorms at Daytona, water would get in the photo lines, I mean, the telephone lines, and you'd have to call the operator and say, I need a clear line for a data transmission. But you couldn't store a lot in there. You could store a few stories, and as it was sending, it would be running across this little bitty screen. I mean, it would fit about right here. But the Secret Service agent went around to see if I had opened it and it had been put back together. And they actually stationed a Secret Service agent in the press box with us. Because, you know, that was before Daytona was redone.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Yeah.

[Deb Williams]

And you had a clear view down through all the suites with the windows and everything. And, you know, this was going to be the first time a sitting president had ever attended a NASCAR race. And President Reagan gave the command to start engines from Air Force One. He was en route. And then seeing Air Force One land at the Daytona airport as the cars are racing on the track was just a gorgeous sight. It was just a beautiful sight. I've actually got a large photo that I've had in my office for a long time of Richard Petty coming off turn two with Air Force One landing. And then it wasn't taboo to ask for driver's autographs in the press box. And I guess maybe it was because it was a special win for Richard. But Richard sat in that press box after he did his post race interview. And every media member who wanted the rundown because they handed everything out in papers then, you know, there was no electronics, no cell phones, none of that. He signed everybody's rundown that wanted the rundown signed. And then he left to go to the picnic that you're talking about. And they had told us, they said, you know, the media is invited to the picnic. And it was kind of like, well, we're all kind of riding on deadline. There's no way we're gonna get down there.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Y' all didn't get down there? Damn it.

[Deb Williams]

No. Didn't get down there. Yeah, we were watching through binoculars.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Yeah, it was pretty neat. I barely. Barely remember that, but, I mean, I must have been 10 years old. Nine years old. You've had a lot of different jobs working in nascar. Worked with inside NASCAR as a reporter and writer, worked with Griggs, publishing manager and editor of GT Motorsports. You covered freelance writer for USA Today, the Associated Press, Winston cup scene that you mentioned. You were an editor there for 10 years, worked at that place for 18 years. Then you went to PR.

[Deb Williams]

Yeah.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

So the PR is on the other side of the fence. It is from now. You went from covering the sport to actually working with your co workers to support and represent your drivers. You know, did that go easily? Smoothly, Was it?

[Deb Williams]

I learned a lot.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Learned a lot. I mean, I've seen this sport from so many different perspectives that I thought I'd never see it from, like in the broadcast booth and car owner and different things like that. And it's really, really amazing what all is happening that I had no idea or appreciated when I was driving.

[Deb Williams]

You're exactly right. And the first thing that really caught my attention when I went to work for Penske was the driver's schedules. I had no Idea they were so jam packed. And that was when NASCAR would have PR meetings with all the team PR reps in Daytona. The first thing I did that year was I stood up and apologized to all the PR reps for not asking to schedule interviews far enough ahead of time because I just didn't understand their world. You know, I had never worked in it because racing, you were talking about it changing so much. You know, when I first started covering it, there were no motor coaches. There were no lounges in front of the transporters. That's where they hauled the engines. And when you talk to people, you sat on the tires behind or the back of the transporter. And you got your stories by building relationships and saying, you know, can you talk to me after practice? Yeah, what time? And that was the way you got. You didn't have drivers that had PR people. And so it was an entirely different world. And quite honestly, I had difficulty adjusting to it until I went to work for Penske and got an understanding of it. And it. I got a better understanding of driver schedules. I didn't like having drivers. I thought. I didn't think it was right to have a driver do hospitality the morning of the Daytona 500. He needed to be focused on the Daytona 500.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Hospitalities on race day are worth always tough.

[Deb Williams]

Oh, I just. I didn't agree with that at all. But, you know, I understood why you had to get approval so early, why you had to start working on the next year in October to get everything. I learned a lot. I call that when I did that, and then worked for the Pro cup series, which is now Cars Tour, and Rockingham and Wilkesboro when it briefly reopened. I call that my 10 years of motorsports education because it made me see stories that I wrote that I wouldn't have written, and it made me see, like, critical stuff that I didn't really fully understand, but now I do. And then also showed me stories to write that I never had a clue about regarding the insides of the sport. And so, yeah, I learned a lot from Roger Penske and Don Miller.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

I've talked to a couple friends that I've made in the journalism side of nascar, and they would admit to a story that they were wrong or wish they hadn't written. Do you have one that stands out by chance that you're like, oh, man, you know, I definitely didn't have that right. Or I had. I went and had to. You know, is there ever a time where you really felt like you had to go and apologize? And I said, man, I really I didn't get this correct.

[Deb Williams]

The column that really stands out in my mind is being wrong. And actually it was when Brian France actually called me on it, called me on the telephone. But I wrote about how NASCAR was trying to make the drivers vanilla and they were losing the personality of the sport and all. And then after I went to work for a race team, I discovered it wasn't NASCAR that was doing it, it was the sponsors that were doing it and how the sponsors wanted their drivers to be because they were concerned about losing sales if their driver got into it with another driver or made someone mad. And that's when I realized, and I've told many people that when they fuss about NASCAR making the driver's vanilla, and I say, no, no, no, no, you don't understand. It's corporate America that's making the drivers that way, not nascar. And that's the one that really stands out in my mind. But one time, Tim Brewer was after the All Star race, and it was when Jeff Bodine was the driver and there had been something in the. In the qualifying, All Star qualifying, that happened. And Dick Beatty had, who was the garage director at the time, Winston cup director had penalized him or something. And the PR person for NASCAR at the time came in and gave a statement in the media center at Charlotte, when we get to Dover after the Charlotte race weekends. And Bob Latford, who was handling PR for Budweiser at the time, came into the media center at Dover and he said, I think you need to go talk to Tim Brewer. He's mad at you. Okay. So I went out there and Tim and I were sitting on the back of the truck talking, and he was really angry about what I had written. And I said, well, that's what so and so said from nascar. You mean that's what NASCAR said? And I said, yeah, that's what NASCAR said. And then he got mad about that. He said, that number 11 is my car, and if you want to know anything about my car, you call me. I said, fine, if I want to know something about your car at 2 o' clock in the morning, I'll call you. And we've gotten along fine ever since.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Did you ever have any other kind of like, tough conversations? I'm sure, like, I've been pretty lucky so far as a broadcaster to not have a driver call me or text me after a race and go, what the hell was that? There's been a few times when a couple of my friends or some people that are out there on the racetrack wonder why I'M so critical. But have you ever had a driver, you know, and I know this because I'm a driver or I was a driver. Have you ever had a driver, like, give you the cold shoulder, get frustrated over something that happened and spend, you know, the next six months trying to avoid working with you and try to, like, in their own way, like, punish you?

[Deb Williams]

Yeah. Well, we actually had. Tony Stewart got mad at one of our reporters when I was editor of Scene.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Yeah.

[Deb Williams]

And either April or May of one year, and he finally agreed to sit down and talk with me about it in October of that year. And then Kevin Harvick got mad at our photo editor and wouldn't talk to anybody at Scene.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Photo editor.

[Deb Williams]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, the photo editor was out of line, was he? Yeah, he was out of line.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Do you know?

[Deb Williams]

Yeah, I know exactly what happened. It was when social media was just starting and he put some things on. Social media.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Oh, him personally?

[Deb Williams]

Yes.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Gotcha. I got you.

[Deb Williams]

Yeah. He wasn't representing the company at the time.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

That's no good.

[Deb Williams]

No. And, you know, Kevin actually told one of our other reporters who was gonna talk to him for. Needed to talk to him for a story, and he said, you know, it's nothing personal to you, but it's. Because of this, I will not do anything for C. And I couldn't blame Kevin. But, yeah, it's. There was one team owner that I don't think I spoke to for four years.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Who?

[Deb Williams]

Junior Johnson.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Why?

[Deb Williams]

I thought he was out of line on something.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

He was.

[Deb Williams]

Yeah.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

You got mad at him?

[Deb Williams]

Yeah.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

What happened? You don't have to tell me if you don't want to.

[Deb Williams]

Well, let's just say he and I didn't agree on something at Riverside, and so I wasn't going to deal with him. And.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Four years.

[Deb Williams]

Yeah. And what happened was it ended. I learned a long time ago, if they don't want to talk to you, you can go to somebody else on the team and talk to them. But he. I was at his house doing an interview when we had the women in racing, and I was doing an interview with Flossie.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Flossie?

[Deb Williams]

Yep. And he didn't know I was there. And he walked in the kitchen, and Flossie goes, hey, Junior, you know Deb Williams with Winston Cup Scene Low. But we got along fine, you know, after that. And when he was talking to me about when he was selling the team and all, we were sitting in the cafeteria at Rockingham, and he started going off in a different direction. I said, don't you do that. If you do that, I'm gonna get up and walk away. Okay, so he didn't.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

So why'd you quit pr or you went back into journalism?

[Deb Williams]

Well, Don Miller retired. I was with Penske Racing south, and Dom Miller and Rusty Wallace owned. Each owned 25% of that team and drone 50. And so Roger had the IndyCar under Team Penske, and it was in Pennsylvania at that time. And so when Don got ready to retire, he explained to me that they wanted to put the Penske Racing south under the Penske Corporation umbrella so that if they couldn't just shut it down, because Penske Racing south was separate from Team Penske, if they just wanted to come in and shut it down, they could. But if it was part of the corporation, you had to have the board of directors vote and everything. And he felt that was the better way to protect everyone. And so what happened was Roger decided that it had a flood in Reading, Pennsylvania. So Roger decided to move the IndyCar team to Mooresville. He also had a America Le Mans team then. That was before Marica Le Mans and IMSA actually. EMSA got put back together, you know, and so they restructured, and my duties got moved to Penske headquarters in Detroit at that particular, particular time or in that Michigan area. And my parents were getting older, and I felt like I needed to stay closer to them. And so it worked out that I looked for jobs outside of racing. I applied. Good. Yeah, I did. I applied for the PR job at Grove Park Inn and technical writer for the U.S. forest Service and Community Relations at UNC Charlotte and something that was open and sports information at Appalachian State. But the work that I kept getting was always in racing, and I was like, okay, God, I guess this is where I'm supposed to be.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Yeah.

[Deb Williams]

So the work that I kept getting was in racing, and I just felt more comfortable going back into the now. I loved the time I was with the Pro Cup Series and handling that was interesting because Jimmy Wilson, who now runs modifieds, was the director at that time. And Jimmy will laugh and say, yeah, she got me out of more trouble more than once, telling me to just shut my mouth and she'd take care of it. But I feel like that, because of what I went through at Penske and Pro cup and Rockingham and Wilkesboro has made me a better reporter. It's made me understand more sides of the sport and understand something that Bill France Jr. Told me one time when he was really angry at me and chewed me out, and he shook his finger at me and he said, you remember one thing, we all eat out of the same pot. And I didn't understand it when he told me that because I'd always been just a reporter.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Well, that brings up a great opportunity to talk about what's going on in the sport today. The lawsuit between NASCAR and 2311. You know, you're kind of able to experience that firsthand being in the room during the trial, and what is the best. What is in the best interest of everybody going forward, what is the best outcome and how do we get there?

[Deb Williams]

You know, never having seen a charter, I don't know what's in it. I don't. I wonder if maybe the suit was filed on principle because they felt like they were take it or leave it type attitude and they didn't like it. I know an attorney once told me, don't ever sue on principle, sue on fact, because if you sue on principle, you'll lose every time. But if you sue on fact, you'll be okay. The thing that bothers me the most is with NASCAR being a private company, one family, knowing what it came from, having been there in those early years and seeing what they went through. Now, granted, you look back at when Bill France Sr. Banned Curtis Turner for life for trying to organize under the Teamsters Union, and then you look at 1969, when Richard Petty was president of the Professional Drivers association and what they were working for and they walked out at Talladega, and how Bill France Sr. Dealt with that. So there's been a lot of things through the history that I think was wrong. But the thing that bothers me the most is when you have a private company and you've seen one family devote their life to building that company, to come in and then tear that company down. You know, we always are preached about free enterprise here in this country and building companies, and that's the thing that bothers me the most, is seeing one family that's devoted 77 years of their lives through generations to build this, and then somebody wants to come in and tear it apart. That that's the one thing that bothers me. And I'll have to admit that all of us that were in the courtroom last week were shocked at the emails and texts that were revealed. We certainly didn't expect anything like that that day. We expected it in the trial. And some of the things that the judge has said was quite interesting where he said, if either one of you think you've already got this case won, you're wrong, because it's in the hands of A jury. And he said, you know, if I.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Heard him say that, he's like, he was cautioning them about a Charlotte, North Carolina, jury. What does he mean by that?

[Deb Williams]

I think he means the fact that you've got to know how these people are, how they think, because 2311 and front row Motorsports attorney is from New York City, and I recently found out that NASCAR's attorney was in college at the same time, at the same college with my niece. They didn't know each other in college, but they're entirely different personalities.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

And.

[Deb Williams]

And you've got to understand, if you get a jury comprised of rural Southerners that are very much, this is my business, and I'm gonna run my business the way I want to.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Sure.

[Deb Williams]

They're gonna have a different opinion than if you get a jury of people who have moved into the state and. And have grown up in a city and worked for someone else and maybe been a member of a union or something, they're going to have a different opinion. So I think the judge there was talking about personalities. I'll give an example. One time I was called for jury duty in federal court, and it was on a pornographic case. And during the. The attorney was questioning prospective jurors, and he asked this woman from Wadesboro, who was in her probably late 50s, early 60s, and he said, well, can you give the. Render a verdict, a just and fair verdict on the case as it's presented? Oh, yes, I can do that. He said, well, does anyone in your house subscribe to Playboy, Penthouse, or the Playboy Channel? And she bristled. And she said, I. I don't allow that smut in my house. So she got removed from it. But, you know, she had just said, yes, I can render a fair and just verdict on. On the evidence as it's presented. And then the minute that it turned, you know, she couldn't. But I think the judge was referring to the personalities. You know, you've got to know the personalities of the people you're dealing with. And he, you know, he realizes. He said, you know, if the plaintiffs, meaning 2311 and Front Row, win, he said, NASCAR will look very different in 2026. If the defendants win, then we all know what NASCAR will look like in 2026. So I'm sitting there and I'm thinking, you know, I don't know how I would feel if I was a track owner or running a track or trying to get sponsors or all. Because until this trial's held in December, there's a lot in limbo.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Yeah, yeah. I guess it's probably naive to imagine that there's an opportunity for everybody to sort this out before it goes to trial.

[Deb Williams]

It would be nice, but I think the judge summed it up again when he said, it's clear this is not going to be like two friends who shake hands after getting into a drunken barroom bra. Yeah, but it's, it's like. I guess the best way for me to describe it would be it's two mules that have dug their heels in, laid their ears back and barred their teeth. Yeah, this is the way I view it.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Hey, T.J. you know that I got my own Chevy dealership down in Tallahassee, Florida. We're part of the Hendrick Automotive Group.

[TJ Majors]

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[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

I bet you'd be surprised on what type of Chevrolet vehicles we specialize in.

[TJ Majors]

If I had to guess, I'm gonna say it would probably be Chevy trucks.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Well, we definitely sell plenty of those, but actually we're really big in commercial vehicles. We actually sell a lot of crane trucks for the number one seller actually in crane trucks.

[TJ Majors]

Okay, I definitely did not see that coming.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Yeah, pretty neat, huh? So, for any of our listeners shopping for commercial vehicles, here's some things you need to know about us at Dalenhardt Jr. Chevrolet. We have hundreds of trucks in stock, so you can find what you need fast. And we have people there that can help you with custom orders. So if you want to build the exact vehicle you need, we can do it. We offer complimentary delivery anywhere in the continental U.S. plus, Hendrick Automotive Group is the nation's top rated dealer group for online reputation. Visit dalejrchevy.com and click Commercial. To explore the wide range of available commercial vehicles. Our team at Dylan Hart Jr. Chevrolet will give you a world class experience. Chevrolet together, let's drive.

[Travis]

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[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

You'Ve seen the sport change a ton. And there's, you know, when we talk about, just for example, the race cars themselves, there's been so much evolution of the cars physically. You know, what is the general, what is the general opinion of the media when they hear either people like myself or drivers or fans have criticism or critique of the current generation of race car? Do you look at that or hear that and go, this has been going on since the first car ever got built. Right. This is, you know, there's been criticism or debate or issue with any and every variation of race car we've ever had. Is it going one ear and out the other, or is it a real conversation?

[Deb Williams]

Well, yes, we have always heard criticism of the cars, and it was always one manufacturer trying to get an advantage over another manufacturer. With this current car, I think you have. It's like one veteran reporter told me when I first came into the sport, he said, you know, as a reporter, there's two sides to every story. But you have to remember in racing, there's four to five sides to every story. And, you know, I think the criticism of the car being too rigid was very valid. And I think that what you need to do is when someone tells you something, then you need to go talk to somebody. You don't just go for that one person, for that sound bite, for that clickbait or for. That's the biggest thing I see is everybody's just looking for that one quote to take, and they don't really go and talk and find out what's going on. You know, it's just like to tell the story, to tell the story, write the story. And yeah, I think another problem you get into, you know, when I first started covering this sport, the drivers knew as much about the cars as the mechanics did because they often worked on them or they had their own. I mean, your dad had his own Busch Series team, you know, And I can remember one of those veteran reporters, the one that told me, there's two sides, you know, there's four to five sides to every story. He told me, he said, you probably know more about those cars and those engines than any of the reporters in this media center. And I was like, how could you not learn about the cars and the engines if you're going to cover this sport? And that's the thing that I see now is so many people don't really know about the car or try to understand the car because they don't ask questions about the car. And, you know, I think anytime anybody says anything, they got a reason for saying it. You just got to find out more behind it, why it was said and what it's doing and what's. What's happening.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Yep, there's a big conversation around the playoffs and the format. Joe Logano had some interesting con comments in the. In the week leading into Darlington during media day about the current, you know, credibility and how valid today's format is. But there is a big conversation and even a committee formed by NASCAR to come up with other ideas, other alternatives. And I believe that in the next 24 months, there will be a new. A new playoff format and it may resemble something we've seen in the past. Who knows? Where does the. Where do you. And I guess your, your. I always kind of. I guess my questions around like the car, the next gen, the playoff format. Like as a. Me, as a member of the media, there's a. There's a general obligation to be neutral, but at times too opinionated. Right. And so I guess on the playoff format and so forth, do you allow yourself to be opinionated? Do you allow that to work, to find its way into your work?

[Deb Williams]

If it is, it's as a column. And that's where people have to realize if you're going to write a news story or a feature or a column, then it needs to be separated out. Because the. One of the first things that I was taught in journalism school is you are not the story and columns. I've always had the toughest time with them because I feel like people want to hear other. They want to hear the driver's opinions and the crew chiefs and the team. They don't want to hear my opinion.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

They do.

[Deb Williams]

And so that. I've always had trouble with columns. You know, it's like my first managing editor said, there's a story and everybody out there, your job is to, to find it. And so if I feel strongly enough about something, then I'll write a column about it. But the playoffs are something that it's. And I think it's because as I've gotten older, I take a wait and see attitude more so than I used to. And you know, I find it interesting to listen all these different opinions. You know, I remember when Richard Petty won the 1967 championship by like 12,000 points. And it wasn't a. It was a point system that no one understood.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Yeah.

[Deb Williams]

You know, and then I can remember being at Rockingham when we still had one or two races to go and then crowning your dad the champion. And so, you know, in looking back, I can see where one race and it's kind of questionable, but it's kind of the same thing in the Super Bowl. But then if you take a three race final stage and you know, are you going to do the average or who has the most wins or top. You know, there's all kinds of things to do there.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Yeah.

[Deb Williams]

And I just, I don't think we should eliminate the playoffs. I feel very strongly about that.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

You like them?

[Deb Williams]

I like it simply because it creates good storylines and it's exciting. And yeah, there's kind of that summer drag in the center of the season, but it's always kind of been there.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Regardless of playoffs or formats.

[Deb Williams]

Exactly. And, you know, people complain about how long it is. I said, look, these people used to drive 50 to 60 races a year. I said it didn't get reduced to 29 to 30 until RJ Reynolds came in. And I said they would end the season. I can remember as a teenager, them end in the season the second week in November, and then starting the next season the third or fourth week of November, and you would get to Riverside in January and it might be the third or fourth race of the season, and Daytona might even be the fourth race of the. You know, they didn't start the season there.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

That's right.

[Deb Williams]

So I think we need to keep the playoffs, but don't have a problem with it being restructured.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Who's your favorite driver to work with in the media?

[Deb Williams]

I usually answer that question with whoever makes the best story. I know that's what I answer on race day. Yeah, but who are some.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

I suppose that you really always had a. Had a. Had a great experience with.

[Deb Williams]

Are you talking about now or earlier.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Back in the day? Yeah, some of the.

[Deb Williams]

Richard Petty.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Yeah.

[Deb Williams]

Cale Yarborough, Bobby Allison.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Really? Yeah.

[Deb Williams]

Yeah. Bob. It was interesting because, I mean, Harry Gant, you know, it was funny when Harry got.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

I can't see Harry ever being difficult.

[Deb Williams]

No, no, no. Harry was one of those that. It was funny when he got the ride with Burt Reynolds and Hal Needham.

[Commercial Announcer 1]

He.

[Deb Williams]

Said, I called him up. I was at UPI then, and I called Harry and I said, how has your life changed since you got the ride with Burt Reynolds and Hal Needham? And Harry goes, I get more calls from people like you. But now your dad was one. If he got mad at a reporter, he had no use for that person. He would not talk to him. He would not give them the time of day. I mean, he. And it wasn't a frivolous mad. You know, he had a good reason to be mad at him, but he and I always got along well. Kyle Petty is like a brother to me that I always wanted and never had.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Oh, man.

[Deb Williams]

And, you know, when I started working with these people as reporters, the attitude that I had about some of them as a fan changed because I found out they were really nice people. Rusty and I got into it one time about. About when he had his lawsuit against Raymond Beadle. And he was mad because every time he turned around in the courtroom, I was sitting there reporting on it. And, you know, it came out how much money he was making, which he didn't like. Cause them fans, some of the fans got mad at him. And I told him, I said, well, if you didn't want it out, you should have told your attorney and let him seal it. I said, because anybody can. It's a public documents, public record. Anybody can go in and walk in the clerk of court's office and ask to see it. He said, you mean it's not just open to you because you're a reporter? I said, no. I said, it's public record. Then he got mad at his attorney for not telling him. He should have sealed it.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Yeah. Damn.

[Deb Williams]

Newman had a dry sense of humor.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Newman.

[Deb Williams]

Newman had a dry. He's got a dry sense of humor.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

He does. Yeah. You worked with us a little bit on, quite a bit actually, on becoming Earnhardt, 1980. How was that experience? That is a piece of work that I'm really proud of.

[Deb Williams]

Fun.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Yeah. Yeah. Did you think that the series, when you, I mean, we did the first season, the 1979 season, had you listened to it at all? So you didn't know?

[Deb Williams]

No.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

What did you expect from that series and what was your opinion of the. Of the way it turned out?

[Deb Williams]

I suppose. Oh, I mean, you know, it's just so insightful.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Yeah.

[Deb Williams]

So insightful. And, you know, I think it's great. I think a lot of people don't realize how much Dale changed, man, from the late 70s and early 80s.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

He wasn't the same person.

[Deb Williams]

No, he wasn't. And, you know, even dealing with him in the 1990s was entirely different than dealing with him in the early 1980s because he was very uncomfortable. He was very self conscious about not having finished high school, and it made him uncomfortable to be in those situations. And, you know, he was comfortable with Tom Higgins over the Charlotte observer, and they could do hunting and fishing and discuss that, but he was an entirely different person. So, you know, I think it's great to go back and get those interviews and the broadcast.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

I'm with you 100%. You know, I felt like when. When dad passed away, that person I knew so well, and I could almost predict exactly how he was going to act and what he was going to say when he walked into a room. And I really didn't realize just how different he was in 1980, 1974, all of that. And then until my mom, when she got sick with cancer, she finally said, all right, I'll tell you some of the real deal stories that, you know, me and your dad went through. And some, some things that weren't very. Didn't paint dad in the best light. Right. You know, he's a bit of a goofball, an idiot sometimes before he became somebody. And it made me go down. Maybe I need to dig into this chapter of his life a little more to really see what else is there. And so doing that series really helped me not only, like, almost get as close as possible to traveling back into those garages and seeing what it might have been like. I learned a ton about Darrell Waltrip, Die Guard, all of that stuff. Buddy Parrott, Lanier. I mean, all these. Lenny Pond, what a quirky little sense of personality this guy was. Just so many cool things that I learned about doing that stuff. But I think. Yeah, I think the other thing that came out of that, that was unexpected was. Sir, Rod Osterlin's still with us, and Rod's out west, and he's a bit of a recluse. And what I've learned is he really took the sail of that team very personally, and he's held onto that. And listening to his family, who I've been in contact with, he's a bit apprehensive to reconnect with that part of his life or even sit down and have a conversation at this table, for example. He's gotten warmed up to the idea, but I think that he believed that everybody was not happy, you know, about him selling the team. And he's kind of held on to some unnecessary burden and grief over that, but he's still got a sharp mind. So I've never, never ever met this guy that I remember. Maybe I was around him and didn't know it, but I've never even had a chance to say hello to him. But actually, after doing this series, I realized that there's a lot of things that dad could be thankful for, for giving him the opportunity to become what he became. One of those is absolutely Rod Osterlin for putting him in that car in 79 or even giving him a couple runs in 78, but going in and saying, we're all in on dale Earnhardt for 79, raising for the Rookie of the Year, and then winning the chance. If that doesn't happen, who knows, right? Dad shouldn't have made it. Like the dale Earnhardt in 74, 75, 76 should not have made it.

[Deb Williams]

Yep.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

And, you know, looking at his statistics, where he raced, what he was doing at Metroline and Hickory, yes, he was a little. He was successful on a very low level. But, you know, when he would go run the big sportsman races at Martinsville, and so Forth. He wasn't beaten Butch Lindley and Sam Ard and all these guys and Jack Ingram, but he made it off of a couple of unique moments, and one of those was Rod. And so I got the chance to talk to Rod over the course of the Sonoma race weekend this year. I was able to develop a text conversation and then eventually a phone call to speak to him, which was really, really cool for me. I. So I'm thankful that you were part of the becoming Earnhardt Series and just kind of wanted to share with you what that had. What. What other things, unique things that had created in opportunities in terms of being able to just tell Rod, thank you.

[Deb Williams]

Well, that's great. You know, I think, if I may interrupt just a minute, I think the reason maybe Rod feels that way is because your dad was hurt so badly by him selling it. And the people that fought a lot of your dad and were close to him and saw the opportunity he had and to do what he did. Still, being the only driver to win Rookie of the Year in the championship back to back, that may be why Rod's apprehensive.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Sure.

[Deb Williams]

You know, is because of the hurt that was there.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

I think you're 100% correct. And I don't. I mean, I don't deny that that probably was the dominating emotion around all of that when it happened, but I wanted. It was great to be able to tell Rod, like, hey, man, I know that wasn't great. I know you're unhappy. I know you didn't want to do that. And I know that, you know, that upset dad and all the people in his orbit, but, man, if you had to give him the shot. Holy moly. Thank you. Yeah, I mean, we still. He still give him the chance, you know, and that. That. That was a incredible thing. I've really enjoyed this conversation.

[Deb Williams]

I have, too. I can talk racing on that.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

I can, too. We'll have to have you come back.

[Deb Williams]

I'd love to.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Thank you. I. I really appreciate you sharing with us about, you know, your opinion on some of the topics of today. I think, you know, we all sort of get in the noise of the social media conversation, and I personally can get tugged back and forth in terms of how I feel about the way things are going, particularly with that lawsuit with NASCAR 2311. A person like you that's seen this sport for so many decades is so valuable because to. To. To the conversation. You're so valuable because your wait and see approach is a great one. I'm starting to feel that way myself. About some things in life. It's like I used to just jump to a conclusion, jump to an opinion.

[Deb Williams]

I did, too.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

And I'm like, you know what? I might just wait this one out because I've been. I've been. I've been on the wrong side of things too many times. And I've learned, you know, by waiting and getting more information to make a more sensible opinion of things.

[Deb Williams]

But, yeah, and if I may say something right there when you're talking about waiting, I was thinking when I was. We were outside the courthouse last Thursday and Michael Jordan was making his statements. When I was with United Press International, I was covering Michael Jordan when he was playing basketball at University of North Carolina. And the night that he made the winning shot in the NCAA tournament, my state editor had stationed me in the Four Corners Bar in Chapel Hill to cover what was going on in Chapel Hill that night. So to have come this way, it's like I would have never seen this, you know, and that's going through my mind while I'm standing there getting the quotes from that. And, you know, Brad Dougherty and I are from the same neck of the woods. Brad Dougherty's school was in my high school's conference. But, yeah, so that's another thing. As you've said, I always was quick to jump to conclusions and just take a wait and see attitude.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Yeah, well, it's hard to not have an opinion when you're doing a podcast. We're almost forced to have to give one every single week. But, yeah, I don't know. I just want things to work out. I want everyone to be happy. And I won't. I won't, you know, NASCAR to be happy. But I also want Michael Jordan and Denny to be successful.

[Deb Williams]

What's best for the sport?

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Yeah, it's good. It's good for them to be a part of it. And I wish everybody could figure it out, but. All right. Thank you, Deb. It's been fun.

[Deb Williams]

Thank you. I enjoyed it tremendously.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

You bet. You always got a friend here at Dirty Bow Media, and we're thankful for you. Deb Williams on the Dale Jr. Download. Hey, everybody. You want the latest Dell Jr. Download apparel? Visit shop.dirtymomedia.com we're always adding new stuff all the time, especially like when we say something silly on this show. We'll put it on a T shirt again. Check it out at shop.dirtymomedia.com when you're.

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[Deb Williams]

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Well qualified credits and imbalance due if you pay off early or cancel contact.

[Dale Earnhardt Jr.]

Us all right, so Deb Williams on the Dale Jr. Download. Those are fun conversations. I just am jealous, honestly, of all the things that she's been able to witness in this sport. I was around for some of the stuff in the 80s, but to have been old enough to like have cataloged the, the memories would be pretty neat. There are several people in the media side of NASCAR that have been around the sport for a long time and witnessed many, many changes and many unique moments. And I feel like that, that information and knowledge and storytelling is so valuable and so we're really thankful for Deb to give us some time today and just a lot of fun. She had some pretty cool, pretty cool highlights in there. I would just say we think about highlights on how we're going to clip this thing and there were some good moments in there. But yeah, I, I'd love to have her back. You know, there's a, we probably get a little deeper into some of these more, you know, more challenging moments in the sport that, that she was a witness to and, and, and, and see how, you know, comfortable she might be getting into some of those things. But that was just a bit of an introduction to who she is and, and, and, and yeah, so I'm thankful for Deb and hope you enjoyed the conversation. And yeah, we'll be back next week with another guest. We've only got a few left this year before we wrap it up and yeah, so we'll see who's coming up. All right, it's time for the White flag. The teardown was live on YouTube and Twitter. Following the race and joining them for part of the show was Chase Briscoe, the winner at Darlington. Appreciate him taking time out of his busy evening to give our team at the teardown a little bit of an insight into his win. Door proper clear dropped on Monday and they were joined by TJ Majors and who's my co host on the Tuesday show. Actions detrimental Also dropped on Monday night Up and down race for Denny and the 11 team. And then yesterday obviously dirty air with TJ Hermit, Schrader and Speed street will drop today. Also tomorrow, Thursday, another episode of Bless your heart. I'll be back in the studio with Amy. Friday, the Dirty 30 comes out. Another episode of the 30 Minute Recap Show. For everyone who can't listen to all of our podcasts. This is a highlight reel, 30 minutes long. Every Friday. The Dirty 30 coming at you. Check out Dirty Mo Media on Instagram, Facebook X and Tick Tock.