A (2:50)

So I was born in Samoa, North Carolina.

B (2:53)

Where is that?

A (2:53)

It's a little small town. Right. Kind of near Vir in the road course.

B (2:58)

Really?

A (2:58)

Yeah, just. Just south. Just south of Vir. Just. Just the average dude. You know, we grew up. My dad went on a real small logging business and, you know, I remember being 10, 12 years old, he'd sneak me out there in the summertimes and I'd be driving skidders and stuff like that. Working. Yep. Just. Just lived a normal life. You know, we had. We had some cows and just grew up on the farm and just, Just a little country boy. Yep.

B (3:26)

Where'd you see racing first?

A (3:28)

South Boston. That was kind of what we did for fun. So we would. Small town. It wasn't a ton to do.

B (3:34)

How far is that from the, you know, from the house?

A (3:36)

20 minutes.

B (3:37)

Yeah. Not bad.

A (3:37)

Yep. So we would go there sometimes we'd go to Orange county, but most of the time South Boston, you just go

B (3:43)

sit in the stands as a kid.

A (3:44)

We. We did, yeah. And I had a lot of memories growing up. Like we ended up meeting David Blankenship's parents in the stands. And David was such a legend at South Austin. And so we would sit with. Their names are Harry and Evelyn. They're passed away now, but we would sit with them every week. And I remember they would. Every year they'd send me Christmas presents. Like we were just. We just become really close. So. He was definitely one of my heroes growing up.

B (4:10)

I'd like to say I raced against him, but I didn't do much racing when he was on the track. He was way up there.

A (4:14)

He was really good.

B (4:15)

He was good.

A (4:16)

Yeah.

B (4:17)

Yeah. I, you know, we. South Boston is just kind of been. I mean, when I think about late model stock racing, but mainly when I think about Mid Atlantic racing in the Carolinas, the Virginias, South Carolina, Tennessee, even South Boston is the, the staple. The standard, you know, is for what I think all short tracks should, should strive to be. And now, you know, it had a. It had an O'Reilly race or a bush race, an Xfinity race back in the day.

A (4:54)

I see you kick tail there.

B (4:55)

We did. We had some fun, but AC Delco. Yeah. Still, though, operates at such a high standard.

A (5:05)

Yeah.

B (5:06)

You know, and, and so it's an incredible. It is. It's carrying the. It's, you know, it's carrying the, you know, the banner for what I think a lot of our short tracks are striving to be. And you grew up right down the road from that racetrack. When did you. What. What was the first sort of light bulb moment where you're like, how do I get behind the wheel of a car? How do I start to get.

A (5:30)

Man, it was. It was early. Like, I. I remember, like, my school teachers posted some photos because I raced this weekend, and they were, you know, like different things that I drew in different classes. Dry. And I was drawing. Typically I was drawing Dale Senior's race car. And, you know, he'd always win. And it was like, I was fascinated by the sport really. Like, we didn't. You know, we didn't. We didn't grow up poor by any means, but we didn't. We were not wealthy either. Like, we would. We didn't have satellite tv. I'd listen to the races on mrn and man, they would just paint the picture for me. And, like, it was. It was just something. Every Sunday, I'd get out of church, we'd go to grandma's, we'd eat Sunday lunch, and I'd stay there and listen to the race on MRN radio. And I just. It just kept manifesting and I would think about it every night. I remember, like, now I know probably shouldn't have prayed about things like that, but I remember praying at night, like, man, let me figure out a way to do this one day. And it just, you know, it never really happened. You know, I didn't know. Like, we never got into go kart racing. We never got into any of that.

B (6:41)

We just. Did you tell your daddy?

A (6:44)

I did. You know, he knew. He knew how infatuated I was, but my dad was. My dad lost his dad when he was like 12 years old. So my dad had kind of a hard upbringing. So they lost the family farm, and dad really worked his tail off to have. Have what we. What he had, you know, and so he was just grinding. I mean, he would be gone. I didn't remember a lot of things with my dad because he would be gone before the sun was up and he would be getting back when it was time for me to go to bed, to school. So really, as a kid, we didn't. We won't tight through those moments. Like, of course he loved me. I know that.

B (7:20)

Sure.

A (7:20)

But we just didn't. We didn't have that relationship because he was working all the time. Yeah.

B (7:25)

So. So how did it turn about. How did you end up in so chance to get behind the wheel of

A (7:29)

something So I graduated high school early. I went to Piedmont community college at night after school, and I would take extra classes, and I graduated high school early. And why?

B (7:41)

What was the initiative behind being?

A (7:43)

To work and make money to build a race car.

B (7:46)

Damn. All right.

A (7:46)

Yep. So I remember, like, when I was in high school, like, when I tell you who was growing up without nothing, like, I didn't have a parking pass. And I would park it. Donald Fox was the guy's name. I'd park at his house, and one of my buddies would pick me up and take me to school. Like, I was putting away every dollar I could to try to somehow figure out how to get in this dream. So I went to work at a diesel mechanic shop in Collins, Virginia. It was called Collins repair. And I would do fabricating, welding. A lot of times, like, these cattle, these dairy farms would have these silage trucks, and I would stretch those trucks. That was one of my main jobs I would take. Like, they would buy a Mack truck and we would turn it into a silage truck with a dump body and all.

B (8:27)

Damn.

A (8:27)

So, like, I was. I was. They called me Fireball up there. That's just what they called me because I did all the welding. But. But yeah. So I was saving money up there. My dad was saving money up because, like, he loved racing, too. Like, he always loved racing. And it was a used car. Danny Willis, that was racing South Boston.

B (8:46)

That's a recognizable name.

A (8:47)

Yep. He had a. He had a used car for sale.

B (8:50)

What type of car?

A (8:51)

It was a Townsend car.

B (8:53)

Damn. You went right into a late model.

A (8:55)

I went to a limited Limited.

B (8:57)

Late model.

A (8:57)

Limited late model.

B (8:58)

Yep.

A (8:58)

It was a Townsend car.

B (8:59)

And who's Townsend? Hell, everybody listening, because I know who he is.

A (9:03)

Rick Townsend's a legend. I mean, he had a unbelievable business. He won so many races, man. He was. He is freaking legend of sport. Yeah. So done some cool things and a heck of a fabricator, too. But we were able to get the car. Now it was bare. Like, it didn't have anything hardly on it. Like it had a body, but it didn't have. And it had a few pieces here. But we didn't have transmissions. We didn't have gears. We didn't have sprays. We didn't have shocks. So we kept working. And it took almost a year and a half to round up parts. And most of it was used parts. The guy worked for Cowan's repair, Alan Amos. He bought an engine for it. A 604 crate. A 603 crate engine. Because it Was running Limited, and he ended up buying the engine for it. And most of the time, these guys we were racing against, they would take the crate engines to an engine builder and get them specked out, maxed out to the rules. We run straight out the box. And it was. It was a long process. We finally got on track at the end of 2006.

B (10:09)

Damn. And I remember it like, I think it's so crazy because you're. That sounds like that wasn't that long ago. Yeah. Because as soon as you say the year I take, I run right to where I was in 06. Right. And I'm like, you. I was just getting ready to get out of. I was just getting in a cot, you know, bud car. Coming to the end of that deal, and you just getting going.

A (10:33)

I had never made a lap.

B (10:34)

Not even allowed.

A (10:35)

Not a go kart lap.

B (10:36)

A lot of. I mean, that's longer ago than it feels.

A (10:40)

And. And, yeah, it means 20 years now. But the. I think for me, that's why this whole thing means so much, because from. I would say, when I was five until that point, it's what I dreamed of every single day. So, like, I think that's why I'm so passionate and so emotional about it, because that's what I always wanted to do. I didn't get to play sports or nothing like that growing up. Like. And once I got to racing, it's where I fit in. Like, it was. It was my life. Like, it was something that. I didn't take it for granted because I wasn't pushed to go to the track. I was begging to go to the track. And it just. I had to work so hard to actually get there that first time. And I remember getting on the racetrack, and at the time, Danny Willis and Bruce Anderson were just. They were winning all the limited races, and I was like. I thought I was just hauling tail out there, practicing about that time. They rolled by me, and, I mean, they, like, about blow my doors off, and I'm like, sho. I don't know if I can drive it in the corner that deep, you know? And so I just would. Every time they go out, I'd go out behind them, and I would just drive it deeper and drive it deeper until I could do what they did. And I spun it out and different things. I never hit nothing, but. And eventually, like, we run that one race in 06, and then I had to wait all winter for South Boston.

B (11:59)

You were chomping at the bit.

A (12:00)

I was. And we went. We went back and we didn't know anything about. Like. I had worked for HC Sellers a little bit, just helping him with like some of his customers.

B (12:11)

Where was your car? At home.

A (12:13)

So it was at the shop. I worked for Allen Amos. So I was. It was.

B (12:16)

Kept your car at the work.

A (12:18)

At work, which was an hour from the house.

B (12:20)

Dang.

A (12:20)

Yeah. So I was traveling back and forth.

B (12:22)

You wasn't home much?

A (12:23)

No.

B (12:24)

Who was helping you?

A (12:25)

Allen. That run the shop. And then HC Sellers would. Gave us a baseline to put in the car because, you know, we didn't know. So I remember we had like a little toolbox that you could tote with your hand. You know, everybody's got these huge war wagons now. We had a little toolbox and we had some three quarter inches. We had an inch and a half to move the track bar. We had a half inch ratchet and we had a spanner wrench. And we ran like a. We ran like a pair 350s or something in the front, small bar. And we had like a 175, 150 reversed in the back. Just old school. And we would just. We didn't know nothing. HC he would write down on the paper how to take crossweight out of the car, you know, one in the left front, you know, so we had all this cheat sheet of what to do if the car was tight or loose. And man, we were just at the racetrack having a ball. So it was. It was kind of crazy. I ended up winning like my fourth or fifth races out of Boston.

B (13:23)

Really?

A (13:24)

Yeah, it was. It was unbelievable.

B (13:26)

Like a lot of progress in a short period of time.

A (13:28)

We did. It was. It was pretty crazy. So it was just natural. It ended up coming natural to me, but I was just fortunate on that side of it. But I don't know, it was just. That's how it began. And then it's kind of crazy to what it progressed to.

B (13:42)

You're talking about it being natural to you. So, you know, you ain't been in a car all that much over the last six years. You hop back in and you go right to the front. You win races. You run second at Martinsville last year, you hadn't ran. I don't know, you hadn't ran 400 laps in six years. Right. You hadn't had a lot of time. But it does come naturally. It's like a. There are some guys and you're one of them. I think Josh Berry is one of them. There's some guys that are just naturally a fit for that style of race car. The tire, the engine, all the things. Right. I'm. You know, I've been racing a lot here over the last couple of years, and so I've been around a lot of the drivers out there, and there's a lot of us that get in there and we just grind and. Right. And we'll have some good runs and we'll have some bad runs, and it just kind of ebbs and flows, but don't make a lot of sense. But there are certain guys that just seem to be able to get in any car and make the car fast. Right. What is it like? You've been around this a long time. You've worked with drivers, you've seen drivers, you've had people drive your cars. You've watched people drive your car, and you've gotten in that same car and can make it do things they can't.

A (14:50)

Yeah.

B (14:50)

And it's something to do with that. You know, there's a bit. There's a talent in you that would work across any discipline. I think, like, you could get in a truck, Xfinity and still and be just, you know, really good. But what is it about the late model stock car? What's the trick to making that car work?

A (15:06)

I. I think I just have such a good feel for it. Like, I worked on them for so long, too. That didn't hurt anything. But I just think. I know once I started having success, I would figure out where my car needed to be in practice and stuff like that to be good at night. And I just paid so much attention to things like that. So I think it's all defined details and just super focused. Super focused at the racetrack, like, and early in my career, that probably was a little bit like. It was one of the reasons I had success. It was also one of the reasons I didn't meet enough people to have an opportunity. Because when I was at the track, I was just so laser focused on how to win races. I wasn't focused on meeting people or talking, networking. Yeah, yeah. Nothing at all. I didn't do. If I could go back, I would love to redo that part of it. But it's so hard to be good at both sides of it.

B (15:57)

You felt like that every minute of the day needed to be devoted to racing, you know, the car and speed and you and being better. And you couldn't imagine, like, sacrificing one moment.

A (16:07)

Nope, I couldn't. I thought that I could win my way if I win this, If I win 70% of the races, there's no way I'm not going to make it right. No way. Yeah. And you know, looking back it was. That's important. But the networking is just, just everything in the sport really. So.

B (16:25)

So how many years did you run in the limited class?

A (16:28)

I ran two. I won Rookie of the Year in 071. I've won a couple races. 2008 I won the championship there in, in limited and then 2009 was my first year in late mall stocks.

B (16:41)

Where did you change cars? You bring the same car?

A (16:44)

Same car. Yeah, same.

B (16:46)

Changed. Change them.

A (16:48)

It was humble. We changed the engine. Yeah. We ended up. We, we. At that time I, I was winning so many races in 08, more and more sponsors were coming on board. Like just local people. Yeah, yeah. And I had a tremendous amount of sport support at the local track. So they helped me get an engine and we, we come. South Boston was having 30 cars like we. Wayne Ramsey, Philip Morris, Nick Smith, like unbelievable guys like some of the most talented racers and man it was, it was a humbling experience. So I won a race that year in my rookie year but most of these guys were running brand new cars and I was bringing a limited car up, you know, so it was tough. It was definitely. The equipment was, was not up to par with what they had, but I was able to be competitive so. And learn a ton. And I think that helped me in the long run because I was taking cars that probably should have run 20th at South Boston and I was running in the top 10 with him. So. And I did sneak. Like I said, I snuck a win in there and that was a moment I'll never forget too. That first win, it was just like I can do this, you know. Yeah.

B (17:55)

Do you remember that night, what happened?

A (17:57)

Yeah, I do. I was, I was pretty good. I was going to run about third and. Which was tough.

B (18:04)

Yeah.

A (18:05)

And Jonathan Cash and Nick Smith got into it in front of me and I remember Cash. I think Cash spun Smith but either way it like it knocked a body off the 88 car. I remember that Nick, Nick drove a black and yellow 88 car and it knocked the roof and all off the thing and ended up getting sneaking by on both and. And had a good, you know, restart and was able to win the race. So that was, that was probably a third place car that night. But I was the happiest guy in the United States in victory lane for sure. Yeah. So it was a big night.

B (18:38)

So are you, are you running South Boston every night or every week and then going to, running anywhere else?

A (18:45)

No, we, we had Just enough fun squeaked out to run South Boston. So I was only running 12, 12 to 14 races a year, something like that. Something. So yeah, but. And we did try to sneak to Martinsville. We, we didn't make the show. Like we did make the show when we went. And that was a humbling experience too because I was sitting there and it was, you know, 110 cars or so at the track at that time. And I remember watching the race from the stands and that was the most disappointed feeling that ever had in my life was really in the show. I was sitting there, I was like, I just, it's.

B (19:25)

I've missed that show and it sucks to miss it.

A (19:28)

You can taste it.

B (19:29)

But I mean there's so many damn good. I mean there's 80s cars that don't make the race. That's right back in the 90s and you're in 2000. It was, you know, you didn't feel like, yeah, you were one of a few.

A (19:41)

No, I wasn't one of a few. But I just helped myself to a

B (19:44)

high standard, I guess.

A (19:45)

But. But yeah, it was. I actually rented an engine from, from Philip Morris the first time we went. So the first time I went was 08. I was running Limited and Philip rented me an engine. And I remember that thing had some steam down the straightaway. It was, it was. I come so close to making it. I had no experience. I had never run a lake mile race anywhere. Anyway, I come right from Limited and I missed the heat race by like one spot. But it definitely has some steam. I was bragging on his motor pretty good.

B (20:13)

So Jay Hedgecock, we've had him in here a couple weeks ago to do the show. He helped you on a new car?

A (20:20)

Yes.

B (20:21)

How'd that come about?

A (20:22)

So in 09, I knew that for me to be able to Lake Mall stock race, I was going to have to update my equipment to have a chance. And I went to several different chassis guys. I went to Townsend, I went to A and E, I went to J. And like I'm telling them all of them, I don't, I'm. I don't have the money, but if y' all help me, I'm telling you I can sell chassis for you. And I said, I will pay you if I have to cut grass every single day for five years. You're going to get your money, I promise you. And the only person that took me up on it was Jay. And it took probably a year to pay that chassis off and departs and stuff. I got from him. But I would. That's why I've been loyal to Jay Hedgecock ever since. I've had so many chassis guys after me to run their chassis still to this day. And I've never left Jay because I've never forgot what he did for me in 2010.

B (21:22)

He's a badass dude.

A (21:23)

He is a unbelievable guy. And I'm just a guy. Like I have loyalty. Like, if you help me, I'm, I'm. I'm all in. And. And that's how I've been with Jay ever since. And I remember the first time I drove a car, sat on the pole, won the race and it was like, wow. Like this. Now we, now we're on a different level.

B (21:42)

Yeah.

A (21:42)

And we ended up finishing second in the points that year, but I won the second most races. Justin Johnson was really good. Frank Denny was working on his stuff and yeah, he was. He. I think they were coal binding before any of us knew what it was. And, and Justin was tough to beat. But by the end of the year we had, we had gotten our stuff pretty, pretty dominant. It just was a little bit too late in the season. Yeah. So.

B (22:08)

So talk about, you know, the breakout season. In 2011, you qualified on the poll. Before that, in 2010, you qualified on the pole at the Valley Valley Star 300 and finished fifth. The Martinsville race, you won five races at South Boston. Then you went to Motor Mile and ran and won 18 races. In 2011, you'd win the track championship and also the 300 at Martinsville.

A (22:36)

Yep. 2010 Martinsville still hurts me. I was, I remember racing Dennis Setzer and I thought that was the coolest thing in the world.

B (22:44)

And was he in the Orange Blossom Special or somebody else's car?

A (22:49)

He was in Charlie Long's Romeo Guest.

B (22:51)

Oh, yeah.

A (22:52)

So it was super cool to.

B (22:54)

Dude. I went, I went to, I think in 94. I went to Wilkesboro in my Sun Drop car and I knocked the crash on the back straight away and I knocked the nose off of it. But that Romeo Guest car along was driving it run second.

A (23:16)

Yeah, that thing was stout.

B (23:17)

Yeah. People don't know Carl Long like that.

A (23:20)

Yeah.

B (23:21)

You know what I mean? But he used to be damn good in late mall stock in the mid-90s. Yeah.

A (23:26)

He grew up not far from me really in Roxboro.

B (23:28)

But yeah, so he, so Setzer was driving that car in this particular race. Yeah.

A (23:34)

And I remember I was leading it halfway, like I was beating them pretty bad, like sets over second and I put like a half A straightaway on him. And I would just sit there and ride like. Like we're going to win this race unless we get wrecked and we come in and we take tires. And when I roll back out, car starts missing and then it starts missing more. And now it is just sputtering all the way down the straightaway. I would roll by them in the corner, they'd roll by me down the straightaway. And what happened? They take your carburetor at Martinsville and when we put it back on, we always. We ran the plug wires over the top of the motor at that time. Now we run them under, but at that time we ran it over top of the valve covers and down and we forgot to zip tie. We would always zip tie them to the fuel line so they wouldn't get on the header. Yep. We didn't do it. And we, we had. We were running on six cylinders the last part of the race. And you know how bad that is at Martin. So I was able to finish fifth down. No telling how much power.

B (24:34)

Right.

A (24:35)

But a dominant car that day, like it was. It was a hard way to. To lose that race for sure.

B (24:41)

Well, you turn around and win it the next year and you have a pretty dominant season at Motor Mile. Why did you leave South Boston to go to Motor Mile?

A (24:49)

Car count? I was just chasing basically wherever the most cars was.

B (24:53)

Are you trying to win national championship?

A (24:55)

I didn't even know about it at the time. I could have won in 11, but.

B (25:00)

What do you mean you didn't know about it?

A (25:01)

I didn't even know about it. I was just racing weekly. I didn't watch it.

B (25:05)

Look at it.

A (25:05)

No.

B (25:06)

Damn.

A (25:06)

I didn't. I didn't even understand the points then. Otherwise I'd have wanted an 11.

B (25:10)

In the 90s when I was doing it, they had a weekly newsletter that was sent out to everybody and it would give you the, the.

A (25:18)

Each.

B (25:19)

Each section of the country had a different division. Right. And we were in the mid Atlantic with the Myrtle beach racetrack and. And you know, you'd look at that thing and see who was where.

A (25:28)

And yeah, I was so unaware of it. I was in the moment. And I would have won a national and 11 if I'd have knew anything about it because I finished third only running that track. Basically, I might have went to South Boston for the 200 lap.

B (25:40)

Yeah, but race is all you needed, right?

A (25:42)

Yeah, I mean, it was.

B (25:44)

It was South Boston had lost some cars at the time. Or was it Motor Mile?

A (25:49)

Motor Mile was rolling like they were.

B (25:51)

They Had a little run there.

A (25:52)

It was, it was impressed. Like they were sending cars home.

B (25:55)

Yeah.

A (25:55)

You know, it was, it was no joke.

B (25:57)

So why would, what was the lure? Can you recall why people wanted to be going to that racetrack? What was, why were they successful? Were they paying great?

A (26:08)

They were paying good for sure, because we would go south. Boston was paying three grand motor miles, paying five grand for race.

B (26:15)

Yeah.

A (26:16)

And then like. Yeah. And it was, I mean, at that time, because I didn't have money, that was very important. Like, I was always looked as being a rougher racer, like a hard nose racer. But I was looking to figure out how to pay my tire bill, how to pay my engine bills. Like, I took it personal when I was on the racetrack and just, you know, so we were definitely chasing a way to break even at the end of the year. Like, we didn't, we just didn't have the money to not break even. We could, we were, we were always chasing stuff like that. And it was, our package was good. Our engines were good. Kowalski had really good power at that time.

B (26:56)

And who was racing at Motormile with you?

A (27:00)

It was Frank Denny was one of them. I had to beat Tommy Lemons.

B (27:05)

Tommy, Yeah.

A (27:06)

I mean, all the Denny cars were running good through that time. Frank Denny had four or five cars at that time running out of his shop. They were always tough, the Tommy Lemon stuff. Chad Harris, I don't know if you remember Chad, he was good. But Mike Looney was up there racing. Philip Morris would be up there some nights. So it was just kind of different. It was kind of that. The core group was probably 20 of us, but it was always 10 to 15. That would kind of jump in from different tracks, whether it was hickory or whatnot. So it was, it was always competitive.

B (27:44)

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B (29:11)

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B (30:46)

you won the national championship in 2012 track championship at South Boston with 19 wins. So you go back to South Boston?

A (30:55)

Yeah, yeah. So yeah, it was interesting time in my life, really. But it was nice sleeping in my own bed at South Boston, that's for sure. But yeah, like I said, that was kind of Philip won the title in 11. And then I got to go to the national banquet that year because I finished third. Yeah. So at that point, I'm like, I'm going where Philip Morris is, because if he won a national title, I just need to beat him. Yeah. So I would just go wherever he was at and.

B (31:24)

But 19 damn races, dude. I can't even imagine people. Ain't many people in the world that go, you know, do a short track and dominate a short track like that. I mean, there are a lot of great names.

A (31:35)

Yeah.

B (31:36)

And in the weekly racing ecosystem and the regional ecosystem, you followed that up with another championship. 2023 or 2013. I'm sorry. Back at Motor Mile and 24 wins.

A (31:52)

Yeah.

B (31:54)

You won the Murder Beach 400.

A (31:56)

Yeah, it was my first time ever racing there. That was my first race. It was super cool. I remember I was about a lap down with 30 to go, and I. When I went, I was coming in a hairy, and I took the lead on the last lap. So it was. It was pretty cool. So. But yeah, now that was a super cool track. We. We unloaded. We want that.

B (32:15)

Great.

A (32:16)

And I remember just the turtle. They had, like, little turtle shells in the corners. And it was all about timing when you touch those things. And, like, I could get my left front on it, and it would just make a car rotate. And once I figured that out, I could get so low up off the corner and just get the wheel out of it and just straight drive, straight drive.

B (32:34)

So are you realizing at this point it's, you know, roughly 2012, 2013. You're literally only five years into this whole experience, but you're winning dozens of races at these racetracks every year. You're dominating.

A (32:48)

Yeah.

B (32:48)

At these racetracks.

A (32:50)

Yeah. At that time, I thought, there's no way I'm not going to make it. Yeah, I thought, there's no way I'm not going to make it. No way I won't get a phone call.

B (32:57)

Did anybody call you?

A (32:59)

So I had a meeting with Kyle Busch about. I didn't actually meet with Kyle. I met with his guy. They wanted me. He wanted me to run his truck. And I was like, man, this is like, this is awesome, you know, And I can't remember. It was like, 13, 14, somewhere in there. And I thought, this is. This is it. And I went there and we sat down, and he's like, dude, we would love to have you. Your resume is incredible. Like, you're our number one prospect. And he was like, we can get some. We can get some funding. And Help you. But this is the number that it's going. That you're going to have to come up with. And when I seen that number, I was like, I mean, this is a kid that didn't have $10,000, you know. And I was just. At that moment it hit me like, man, how am I going to ever get an opportunity? You know? And it was kind of. It was tough for me to swallow. And I just, I said, dude, I really appreciate your time, but I. I don't know how I can do that. You know, I don't. I don't have any connections like that. My family has no, you know, we can barely Late model race. And so I thought it was going to, you know, like, when I went down there, I didn't realize how things worked really. And so I remember touring the shop and the trucks and I remember all the excitement and then I remember that part of it and I remember that, like, feeling in my stomach and I was like, the realization of what it takes to do this, which is just an expensive sport. Right. Takes employees, it takes engines, it takes bad to the bone vehicles. Like, it's just, just how it works. But at that time, I was like, man, I just don't know.

B (34:43)

So.

A (34:44)

And then the, the winner of 13. I just won the. I started driving for Rusty Skus a little bit in the Hooters Pro Cup. It was actually been renamed to the X1R Pro Cup. Jack McNelly was running it.

B (34:57)

Yep.

A (34:58)

And so I won the last Pro cup race there ever was. I went to Southern Southern national and sat on the pole and I outrun Clay Rogers. And I mean, I had never drove these cars, these big heavy tanks, you know, and I've only ever drove a lake model. And I mean, I just put it on Clay Rogers and like, that dude was a legend in them cars. And so I won that race. I let every lap want it. And after that, Bruce Cook called me and.

B (35:25)

Oh, I don't know. Bruce Cook?

A (35:26)

Yep. And he said, look, I'm taking over at Shiggy Hattori's and would you be interested in driving the K N car? And I'm like, hell, hell yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And he said, well, it's between you and Corey Lajoy and somebody else at that time. And so of course I'm. I'm hopeful, but I don't know what's going to happen. Corey La Joy was winning a lot of races at the time and in. In his own K and N and ended up. They called me one day. He was like, if you Want it? It's yours. And I'm like, where I slide, you know? So went down there, went to the. You know, I'd been to the shop a couple of times, and I was like, well, this is. This is it. This is how it starts, you know? And they had. We went to a test session at Gresham in Georgia. That was the first time I ever drove a car. And me and my teammate went to the same session there. And I had been faster than him all day, like, a lot. And he had experience, and they were like, man, your car is just whatever. We had a different package. That crew chief brought a package, and then my. The crew chief I had, Randy Goss. He brought a certain package for me, and they were like, drive his car and just see if it's the car or what. Well, I drove his car. It was faster than my car.

B (36:53)

Yeah.

A (36:53)

And I was like, dang. I was like, whatever that thing is, let's put in it, you know?

B (36:56)

Yeah.

A (36:57)

So we go to New Smyrna, and that was the first race of the year to K N. And I qualified in the top three. And me and Daniel Suarez pretty much had checked out, and I was racing him hard for the lead. And we had a. We had a pit. We had, like, a halfway stop, and we come in, and when they check my tires, the left rear was going flat. I started getting loose in, and the left rear was going flat. Well, if you put a tire on, they send you to the rear.

B (37:25)

Yep.

A (37:26)

And, you know, 30 cars. Golf made the call to put 40 pounds of air in the left rear. Like, we probably started the race with 10. Right.

B (37:35)

Holy. Just hope it would last. Yeah.

A (37:37)

He put £40 in the left rear. That thing fired off so tight.

B (37:41)

Oh.

A (37:41)

I was able to keep it up front. And then when the tire got to the right pressure, I run them back down. And me and him had a heck of a battle for the lead. About 10 to go, it started hitting the racetrack. It was so low, and I was still going to finish second with the thing almost completely flat, and we had a caution. I got. I couldn't get going on getting into one, and I got moved. I ended up still finishing fifth with a flat left rear. So we go. We race at Daytona on the back stretch, and we had. Damn.

B (38:10)

You run that race.

A (38:11)

I did in the K and N car. Yep. And so we go to the back stretch of Daytona, and we had two different cars. We had a composite car that I run at New Smyrna, and that thing was really good. And then we had A they had an older steel body car that we run at the back stretch because they figured the race was going to be rough. Well, that thing wouldn't travel like it was. Like, see, it was bound up. Like it just. I'm like, something is wrong with the front end. They would take rounds out and it wouldn't travel any further. It would just stop at the same point. Well, I still finished filth with it. And I saw that. Two top fives. And we go to bristol and we're back in the composite car. And practice. I kept blowing right front. I hit the wall. We'd come in porter, power to clip over. Like, I mean, I hit. I was hitting. We didn't have a backup in the trailer. We literally ported power to clip over. And I was welding because I grew up welding. So I had to weld out fixing things. And man, we'd go out and blow another right front and you'd come in and do it. And they had something off on the spacers. Well, they finally put enough spacer on the right front that it quit rubbing. Whatever.

B (39:17)

Sway bar, something like that.

A (39:19)

Yep, yep. So I got enough spacer, got it spaced out. Qualified like filter six. I remember I just took third and I'm like, I'm gonna win this race today. Like, we're gonna win it. And there it was in the k and n deal. It's still kind of like that, but it's a big speed difference from the cars up front to the cars at the back. So we were lapping some of these guys like fast every three to five laps. Like it was bad. Well, we had just took the green. I was third, and I would run a big arc. Those cars don't have a lot of motor. I would drive it straight in at the wall, like right against the wall on entry. And then I would turn my car down the hill hard. And it was like I had 100 more horsepower down the straightaway. And I was just killing them. And when I turned into one, I was against a wall. And I come down the hill to get a good run out of two. And I'm coming down the hill and all of a sudden there's a car sitting like this in front of me. Ain't spot, you know, Spider missed it. Just didn't see it. A lap car that we had just lapped a couple laps ago. Spawn. And I'm literally from, you know, two car lengths from him running 120 mile an hour. I turned the wheel as hard as I could because I was going to hit him square in the door and I hit him in the left front. And it. I mean, it was probably the hardest hit I ever had in my life. And it, it killed that car. It killed the motor, killed the engine in it. It ripped the truck arms out of it. Like, bad day. And I was actually leading the points because Suarez was having a bad day. So at that time, I was going to come out of Bristol as a K and N points leader. So all we had left was a steel body car, and we took that thing to the next couple racetracks and I could make it go fast, but it had that same problem. It wouldn't travel. So ended up qualifying fourth at Richmond. It was terrible. The car was terrible, but I could make speed for a couple laps. Only time I've ever been lapped in my life. I got lapped at Richmond. And I just remember being embarrassed. And I got. They shut down the. The 11 team that week. And I remember getting that phone call that, you know, they were pretty much out of money and we're going to have to shut this thing down. And. And I didn't, I didn't have no money. Toyota was paying for me to drive this car. Yeah, like, so they shut the team down. I remember that phone call, and I remember so many different emotions. Like, because I knew the last couple weeks had been tough driving that car. And I'm like, man, that would be tough to do this all year long and struggle when I know I can win races. But also on the other side, I'm like, man, because they had planned, they had bought some. At the time, it was Nationwide Series. Nationwide cars from either Kyle Busch or Joe Gibbs, I can't remember which one it was. And that there was rumors that because I was so fast that they were going to put me in that car at the end of the year. Ended up Johnny Sauter got in it, and then he got replaced by Ross Chastain. And that's kind of. Kind of how that worked. But that was. That was just a tough, you know, just a tough sequence because I will always be thankful that I had that opportunity. So I don't mean that any of that in a negative way. Yeah, it's just the timing of it just didn't quite line up for whatever reason it was. But it was a super cool experience. I got to do some cool things. And like, Randy Goss was awesome. He was my crew chief. That dude, he run. He run these motorcycles, flat track motorcycle stuff. And he, he, he was like the. He was a national champion one year of it. And so it was a super cool experience on that part. He was actually. He's actually Amarola's father in law. And I didn't have. I remember I didn't have all the stuff that I needed to pass for, like the undergarment stuff. And like, Amarola was like giving me, you know. Yeah. Stuff at the time. So all of that was super cool. So I have a lot of good memories from it. Of course I would have wished that it would have ended up better, but that was. That was pretty much the last call that I ever had.

B (43:30)

You had to go back to late models.

A (43:33)

Yeah, I think I won 30 races in 14. Yeah, it was really great.

B (43:39)

Did that make you feel any better?

A (43:40)

It did in a way, but it didn't in a way, like, because I felt like I had proven that you belong somewhere else. And so I kind of had an empty feeling. Like I had a. It was a fulfillment in victory lane, but it was also an empty feeling. And in another way.

B (43:56)

Yeah, you. When you go back to run in 2015 around with the. With the NASCAR late model stock car, you had 23 wins at motor Mile, but you'd also start racing against Josh Berry. We had cars out there racing and you know Josh's story, how he come from Nashville, ran a few races and got his. Got his legs underneath him and we just kept racing him and kept racing him. Right. And yeah, we. Our little program wasn't nothing to. Wasn't very intimidating. Wasn't nothing to be worried about up until Josh got, you know, got behind the wheel and. And he developed as a driver and as a mechanic as well. And we got some people in there to help and our team got pretty strong. You and him would end up having some pretty incredible battles to. Together you. One. One notable dust up was at the Denny Hamlin short track showdown. What's your. What's your relationship with Josh? What was it early? What did it develop into?

A (45:04)

I think early it was, you know, it. We didn't. I kind of like what I said earlier. I was kind of a hermit at the racetrack because I just worked on getting my race car. So I probably. I didn't have all the friendships at the racetrack that a lot of guys had just because I literally was thinking about how to beat these guys every second. But. But there was no doubt that he was going to be talented and a threat. And I think for Josh, he was coming in and I didn't always appreciate early on the way he raised me, but I think he just had something to prove, you know, because I Was the guy winning. And whenever you come into something new, you're probably gonna. He probably felt the pressure of driving for U2 and wanting to perform. So a lot of times I felt like. Felt like I got used up a few times early on, and I think that I would give it back. And then it just kind of. At one point, me and him were just kind of in a heated, heated battle. It seemed like every week. And it was just a competitiveness in us, though. Like, I feel like away from the racetrack, we would have been. We would have been buddies, but it was just two guys that wanted to be the best, and it just created some of that on track stuff. And I'll never forget the Hamlin race. What made me mad that day. He wrecked me twice in one day. He wrecked me in the heat race, and everybody had to heat race to get in. And he spun me getting into one. I did a complete 360 in front of the field, chunked it in third and kept on digging and still. Still ended up winning the heat race. And. But I'm like, dag on, God. Like, we're both locked in way. Like, why would you spin me right here? And so then I didn't say anything. Everything went. Was all right. And I remember the last lap, I had Timothy Peters on the outside, and Chase Elliott was driving my car that night.

B (47:04)

Damn. Really?

A (47:04)

Yeah. Chase Elliott was in my car. I had. I had multiple cars there. Chase Elliott, I had Dalton sergeant. So I was checked out. I'll never forget it. I was leading. Chase was running third, and a dagum power steering hose blew on Chase's car.

B (47:20)

Oh.

A (47:21)

With like five to go. And, I mean, I'm gone. And sets up the caution. And so the next restart, I get away. I'm going to win again. About to come to the white, and Dalton wrecked C. Falk. Oh, it was another caution. So that was my other car that was in the race. So both of my cars caused caution. So we line up again, and for the last green, white Checker and I had Timothy Peters to my outside. And Timothy's a really good racer, and I had a really good run off of 2, and I could have cleared him, but I rolled out of the throttle on the straightaway to keep him out there because I knew if he got down, he'd get into you a little bit. He was going to get. He was going to rough me up and not, I mean, nothing anybody would have done, you know, So I just tried to keep him there. Well, that little bit of rolling out the throttle allowed Josh to drive it into three so deep and get to my bumper and, you know, ended up spinning me and wrecking me. And Timothy goes on to win the race. Coming to the checkered. But I remember trying to rub Josh after the race, and we hid a little bit. And these cars are bad about trying to ramp tires, and it looked worse than what it was. And I remember after the race, me and him were, of course, not happy with one another. And I remember getting a message from Kelly.

B (48:44)

Really?

A (48:44)

Yes. She sent me a message, and I said, yes, ma'. Am.

B (48:50)

No. Yes, ma'.

A (48:52)

Am. Yeah. Yep. I didn't know who it was, and of course, I didn't have her number. And. But when I read the message, I was, no. Yeah.

B (49:02)

That's interesting. I didn't know that.

A (49:03)

Yep. That's the first. First interaction me and Kelly ever had.

B (49:06)

So Josh and you raced against each other a lot. And, you know, I've. I've. I remember Josh telling me how much he respected you and thought of your. How much he looked up to your ability, how much he measured himself, I think, against you for probably the first half of his late model career. Y' all eventually figured out a way to. We did find some common ground. How did that happen?

A (49:46)

So my. The guy to help me was Winston Brooks, my crew chief. And Josh ended up marrying Winston's daughter. And, you know, Winston and me are like this. So we are just super close. We're close to this day. Like, he's like another dad to me, really. And so we. I think we both knew we had to figure this out. Like, how are we going?

B (50:11)

We might see each other more often now that Josh is married into the family.

A (50:15)

Yeah. And Winston was still helping on my car at the time, you know, and Josh was a part of the family. So it was just. I think that was. And we both tremendously respected the other's talent. Like, no matter what happened on track, we both knew that that was special, what we could do. And so I think it was just a balance of knowing that, hey, not trying to put Winston in a bad spot, because me and you are fighting or arguing every week on a racetrack. So I think it was more of a respect deal for Winston.

B (50:48)

You won another national championship in 2017, but you raced mainly at Myrtle Beach. Fifteen wins down there. What made you want to drive all the way down there to race every weekend?

A (50:57)

Car count again?

B (50:58)

Really?

A (50:59)

Yep. Car count. So it was kind of. That was the time of the year.

B (51:02)

It's so interesting in a four or five year span. The. The car Counts flowed, and you chased them, right?

A (51:09)

I did. I went wherever the cars were.

B (51:11)

Yeah.

A (51:11)

So I was a long haul every week. But I had my. Me and my wife had our daughter in 16, so I didn't race a ton in 16.

B (51:21)

Really.

A (51:21)

And that's. Yeah, I think I raised some. Don't get me wrong. But not a ton, because it was a lot of things going on and only.

B (51:30)

Only 12 wins that year.

A (51:32)

Yeah.

B (51:32)

Down year.

A (51:33)

Down year. Yeah. Yeah. So. So I didn't race much that year, but 17, I decided that I wanted to try to win another national and go in the best place to go with Myrtle beach, so that's how we ended up going down there. And that was a special national title for me, just because I had, you know, my little family with me, you know, traveling. And it was. It was cool because that place was tough and demanding and you know how hard it is on tires. And to win the National, I needed to win not only the first race, but I needed to be able to have enough tire to win the second race, because we run a lot of twin races. So it was. It was cool times. Myrtle beach was such a cool racetrack. Like, I. I miss that place.

B (52:14)

Me, too.

A (52:15)

So

B (52:17)

after. After the 17 championship season, you would go to the Cars Tour. What about. What was it about the Cars Tour that was interesting? It's a touring series that runs a lot of different tracks, but it's a big breakaway in culture and travel and probably expense from racing weekly at the same place.

A (52:40)

Yeah, I think, you know, I was driving for Mr. Kiker. Mr. Kiker was sponsoring me at the time, and he was interested in it, too. Just doing something different.

B (52:51)

And you'd kind of mastered the track championship, the national championship. You'd kind of. We'd done that rinse and repeat year after year.

A (53:00)

Yep. And that was a way for us to do something different and have it fresh. So we. We got on the road.

B (53:06)

We.

A (53:07)

We were. We were still, like. I had not built. Like, I was still mostly running that 2010 hedgecock car. And then Mr. Kiker had. He did have a Marlowe car that I would run some. So we would kind of bounce between those cars. But we kind of found out pretty quick that we probably were probably a little bit under chassis because all the Cars Tour guys were building brand new stuff every year, and we still had a successful year. We won at Bristol, we won at Myrtle Beach. We finished sacking in the points like, it was a good year, but it was definitely a little bit more challenging. We were not used to some of the rules. The rules were a lot more open than the NASCAR stuff, the weekly stuff. So a lot of information from down here was trickling into that cars tour and we were probably a little bit behind at first when we come in there.

B (53:56)

Yeah. How would you, how would you compare that today with the rule book of the weekly Racer vs. The Cars tour rulebook?

A (54:08)

It's still quite a bit different. And there's pros and cons each way. A NASCAR rulebook is too thick, honestly. And the cars to a rule book used to probably be a little too thin. I think it's a pretty good balance at the cars to a rule book now. It's just, it's. The problem is like the shocks went so different on pass and now it's going to be hard to merge that

B (54:38)

because the money's been spent.

A (54:40)

The money is spent. So it, Somebody's going to take a tremendous loss.

B (54:44)

Yeah, we are. We have a. We allow a little different shock in our series in the cars tour. And to your point, like it's, it's not easy. It's not a. There's, it's not an option for us to say, hey, we'll just do what the, what the weekly series is doing because our guys have all this stuff, inventory, all this inventory on the shelf. And they're, they're. They would have to come to us, which they maybe aren't interested in doing either because that cost them money, their team's money. But yeah, it's kind of something that was done years ago. It's kind of too paste, you know, toothpaste out of the tube at this point. But after that cars tour season in 2018, you decided to go back to south Boston. Yep. You're going for the track championship and you had an on track incident with Philip Morris. Is this the one where the guy runs on the track, rips the damn wire and harness out of your car?

A (55:35)

He tried to. Yeah.

B (55:36)

What happened?

A (55:37)

So me and Philip, you know, we

B (55:38)

were Philip Morris for everybody that's listening. So I've, I've got a connection to Philip Morris. Now, I don't know him personally, but he came in 1999 and bought a race car from DEI, one of the acdelco cars. And this was car number five. All right. Car number five was a car that Tony senior and Tony junior gave to me that I could go take and race as the seconds car at Michigan and a couple other places. And I loved it. In 1998, they decided to let me drive the acdelco car and they were going to get rid of car number five. They didn't need it. It's like they didn't even want it in their fleet the year before, right. So it was a cast off to give to me and I begged them to keep it. And we would race it at Bristol. I'd run second to Hermes Sadler at Bristol and we would end up eventually having some success before I crashed it off turn two I think at Darlington. But we ended up getting that car fixed and running it a little bit and I loved it. But we sold it. They finally in 99 convinced me that it was too old and they didn't need it no more. And Philip bought it, I believe and so he actually raced it at Rockingham. And I remember late in the race him driving by me that car and I was like damn, there goes number five.

A (57:03)

So one of the guys that works for me was Philip's tire guy his whole career and now he works for me and we've become friends. But he's told me that story. He's told me about how good it was at rocking and he's told me about buying the car. So that's funny that you bring that up but Philip was. He was an incredible talent too. Like in my career he was the toughest guy ever raced against hands down, bar none. Like the toughest guy I ever raced against. Like he would one. You just never could figure him out. Like he would run you. I would. He would run you hard and rough but fair one week and then the next week he'd dump you and put you in the wall, you know. So it was just, it was just. It was. It was. I never could quite figure him out. But as we got older 2020 we had that issue.

B (57:53)

Season is underway and it's already, already shaping up to be another year. Hard racing it's winning moments remind us why we love this amazing sport.

A (58:02)

Wrecked his car.

B (58:03)

And when it comes to capturing all of that stuff and at that form nobody does it better than Lionel racing their race win Diecast are some of my favorite cars in collection. That's because he was frustrated. Details exactly like the car does in victory. Did you see scuffs mark damage?

A (58:25)

Yeah.

B (58:26)

So I see freezing that winning when

A (58:27)

he gets like right there and he's coming to my window. Now I remember Austin F they're the

B (58:33)

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A (58:50)

pulled up one to remember slammed the radio in the windshield and he was about to jump in the right side of the car and I don't know what this guy's about to do, so I fired a car up and tried to get away from him. Well, he kind of rolls off the side of the car, you know, and, you know, of course it was a

B (59:07)

big video about was he trying to yank the wiring harness out of it or.

A (59:10)

No, I don't really know because it's

B (59:13)

a hell of an idea.

A (59:14)

Yeah.

B (59:15)

Crazy.

A (59:15)

Yeah.

B (59:16)

I mean, if you really want to get somebody.

A (59:17)

Yeah. But you don't know what that guy's going to do, Right? Does he got. Like I said, I got a screwdriver. What is this guy about to do? Yeah. So I tried to just get out of there.

B (59:26)

I remember that being a big deal on social media.

A (59:28)

It was, it was, you know, I probably got some flack for that, but I'm like, what would you do in that situation? You know, it's just, it was just wild. Yeah.

B (59:39)

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C (60:41)

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B (61:41)

You, you returned to the car store

A (61:44)

after that as an owner? Yeah. Yeah.

B (61:47)

Is that, is that, is that kind of when you decided that you're gonna change what you're doing in terms of driving, owning cars? What was the, what was the basis of that decision?

A (62:01)

So 19, I come back home to South Boston. We had a good year. We didn't, we didn't win a championship or nothing but we won the most races. Like it was a successful year. We, we won the 30000 race at, at Orange county for the cars tour which was, I think that was the only cars to a race I run that year. Me and Josh had a heck of a battle for the win and that thing. And at the end of that year I was just kind of at a crossroads in life, you know, I was like, I don't know, I've won these cars to a races, I won these local races, I won these track championships. Robbing Peter to pay Paul to kind of keep things going at the house and family and stuff. And I got a daughter, I got a three year old daughter and I'm just not, nobody's called, I'm just not going to like I didn't know what more I could do at that level. I'd been at that level for 10 years now and it was, it was the toughest thing I ever did in my life. Like it was trying not to be selfish because I was where I'm at. It's not a lot of possible employees to help work on cars and stuff. So I'm taking away from possible income I could be having by working on something and making a living and providing for my family or I can keep racing and just barely squeaking by. And that just wasn't fair to my daughter and it wasn't fair to my wife and it wasn't really fair to, to any of them. And I had had such a good career. It was like that, you know, Mr. Kiker was paying for my racing. But at the same token, when I'm racing every week that leaves me hard to make a living, very hard to make A living because I'm working on the cars. I'm setting the cars up. Yeah. So that was definitely tough, for sure. And. But it was. It was just what I needed to do. A lot of people, like Corey Hine was driving for me, started driving for me.

B (64:07)

So let me get this straight. Do you have a shop?

A (64:11)

Yeah. So in 14, 2014, I built a shop that I'm in now. Yep.

B (64:18)

And so you're going to take.

A (64:20)

And. And I was already working on other people's cars.

B (64:22)

You already had cars in your shop?

A (64:24)

So my. My whole career that I raised, basically, like when I was winning all these races, I was also keeping up three to four other cars at the same time. And it was only me and one or two guys. Yeah. So you can imagine the workload we had.

B (64:38)

Yep.

A (64:38)

But I was doing that. Like, I. I mean, I don't even know how I survived. I didn't sleep much hardly. I wasn't at home much, but I had to do that to pay the bills to be able to afford to live. Yeah. But I was also trying to race and work on my car. But. So, like, when I was at the racetrack, just like at the Hamlin race in 14, I had. I had Chase Elliott in a car. I had Dalton Sergeant in a car. I had GR Waldrop in a car. And I had me in a car. And it's me and one. We had me, Dave and Chris at the time. So it was three of us, and we had four cars at the racetrack. So you know how much work?

B (65:18)

Oh, yeah.

A (65:19)

So, like, the crazy part was I had all that success through them years, but I was. I was working on other stuff way more than I worked on mine. Yeah, like, mine was kind of always the last thing we would do. We had to take care of the customers first. And I, at that point, at 19, my body is like, man, you can't. You can't do this no more. Like, you gonna have to cut back on something.

B (65:42)

Something's gotta give.

A (65:42)

Something's gotta give.

B (65:43)

But you have a foundation in place in terms of what the business would eventually become. Yeah, you got the race cars, the shop. So you start. You shift from driver to owner. Corey Haim. Other drivers would come in there, most notably Butterbean, and you would. You would start driving, you know, taking cars to the cars, tour races. You still got other cars that are racing at South Boston. You got different points in this whole game. In the last six years, you got cars doing a little bit of everything. And I've. I've watched you win Races as an owner. I've watched your year is. You seem to be very rewarded and fulfilled by what you went through with Butterbean, for example, Right. Watching him become the driver. He was already a really good race car driver, and you. You. You helped him, you know, take the next step, and you watched him graduate. Right. Going up, do that thing that you never got to do. Yep. So is owning the cars fulfilling?

A (66:57)

It's not what I ever intended on doing in the sport. It is fulfilling. It is. It is still passionate. I am so passionate about winning and the sport and helping mold people into what they want to be, but it's not driving like, that was what driving got me into this sport. And driving is my. It is absolutely what I want to do. Like, it is like, if I could drive every week and figure out how not to sacrifice and lose.

B (67:35)

Yeah.

A (67:35)

Financially. Financially, my family and hurt my family, that's what I would do. I mean, I would. I would be driving race cars every single week. That's what I love. That's what I want to do. That's what I always wanted to do. That. The moments that I built with those people, though, are so special, too. Like the moments I built with Corey Haim, the moments I built with Butterbean, the moments I built with each of these different drivers. Along the way. I had special times, man, and it taught me a lot, too. Working on other people's cars taught me that the driver is a very critical piece of this puzzle because we could take the same cars to the track every week with the same setup, same suspension, same everything. And we, you know, you have somebody special in it, they're going to be competing for the win, and you have somebody that's got some work to do. We're running 15th to 20th, and we got the same stuff. So it really even opened my eyes up even more. Like, when I was racing every week, I thought, oh, man, I got the secret set up. I got the secret. Like, I just done hit on this. I don't hit on that. It's really no secrets in this racing game. Like, it's about working hard, maximizing everything you can as a driver. You got to have good cars, no doubt. But the driver plays such an important part in it. And I was fortunate enough to have some talented drivers come through, and they made our cars look good even when I, you know, wasn't driving. And that was. That was definitely critical. We had some years that we struggled, too, and it was just all part of the process. So I hadn't. I had a Couple winless seasons there. In that little stretch, I wasn't driving, and that was tough because I wasn't used to that. I was used to winning a lot of races, and that was a part that would eat at me at night because I. I would just work twice as hard. Like, I'm like, man, if I work just twice as hard, I'll get, Get, get this thing back in victory lane. Yeah. But no matter how hard I worked, I couldn't quite get there with. With it at times, and that was a little bit frustrating, but. But my passion never went away. It was just kind of re. Channeled. And when I quit in 19, I just. I never thought it would go seven years, basically, with Harley driving, like, really. I didn't.

B (70:09)

I felt like you had decided that you were done.

A (70:13)

I never imagined being.

B (70:15)

I felt like that you had found a way to accept it.

A (70:19)

I guess that's what I told myself.

B (70:21)

Yeah, let's see. It's the race.

A (70:22)

I keep telling myself, dude, I'm a

B (70:24)

pretty damn good read of people. And I would see at the racetrack, and I didn't see.

A (70:27)

Yeah, that.

B (70:28)

You know, I didn't see it in your eyes.

A (70:31)

Yeah. I tried to hide it.

B (70:33)

When you really did, you. You got a chance to get back behind the wheel. And that kind of was brought on by Butterbean himself actually getting his opportunity to move up.

A (70:41)

He was.

B (70:42)

And so they, they, they said, hey, man, I want you to run the. The Martinsville race.

A (70:48)

Yeah, it actually. It actually got led on. My dad got sick in 24, and he was in the hospital, and, you know, he had a surgery, and things kind of got complicated in the surgery, and I made a deal with him there. I was like, at one time, it didn't look good, and I made a deal. I was like, dad, if you'll fight right here and get better, I said, I will find the funds and we will go race together at Martinsville. Promise. And dad pulled through, and everything ended up working out, thankfully. And so at that point, I knew I had to figure it out. And Butterbean knew my story and knew that. But. So I was planning on reaching out to some different people to help me in the past to go run this race. And about that time, Butterbean got his deal, like you said. And I think we were. I don't know if we were at

B (71:40)

Ace or where we were.

A (71:41)

We might have been at Langley. I can't remember. Can't remember exactly, but I remember after the race, Butterbean and his sponsor, Mr. Staten, come up to Me. And they were like, lee, we want to tell you, Butterbean's got the truck race at Kansas. And so I knew that Kansas was always falls on Martinsville weekend. And I was like, well, dang, I won't. That's great, but I'm gonna miss you driving at Martinsville. I was planning on racing, me and him racing together, you know, So I was tickled for him. But on one hand, I was like, my dad gone. I'll have to figure this all out. And about that time, they were like, we want you to drive the O3 car at Martinsville. And I was like, really? And he was like, yeah. He's like, we. You don't have to worry about sponsorship. I got you. And we just. As much as you've worked for us and done for us, we want you to just go out there and have fun. And, man, it meant a lot, you know, it meant a lot. And it had been six years since I run anything full time. Well, five years and four years since I had drove, period. And I had kind of let myself go physically. Like, I had gained weight. I wasn't in the best shape. And I think some of that was just because I didn't, like, I had drive to win, but I didn't have that drive that I had when I was racing. Like, I was taking care of my body and all that. So we go there and we get to race, and I remember me and Connor hall battling for the win in the heat race. And I thought, like, I'll add a little bit of the heat race. And it was just kind of surreal, really, that I had been away that long. I immediately went to competing for the up front at Martinsville. I run top 10 almost the whole event. Failed a little bit at the end, ended up 13th. And I remember after the race, just that whole moment with my dad and sharing it, that was all just so special to me, you know, because he loved racing just as much as. Just as much as I did, you know, like, it was a passion of his and a thing that me and him shared together. Because like I said, when I was a kid, we didn't spend a lot of time together because he was always going, working. So it was probably what we spent the most time together doing. And so the whole moment meant a lot to both of us. But the 13th place finish bothered me. Yeah, Bothered me like hell, sure. You know, and like most people be tickled to death to run 13th in Martinsville because so many cars don't even make it, but for me, man, it Was like, golly, I cannot have people thinking that I'm a 13th place driver now. And so I was like, I got to figure out how to do this again next year. So I didn't race at all for a whole nother year. And about a month and a half before Martinsville, it hit me. I can't, I gotta get back in shape. Like, I gotta start working on this. So I started eating better, I started working, started working out, running, biking, different things. And I still wasn't in the shape that I wanted to be when I was at Martinsville last year. But I was in a lot better shape than the year before. And I remember unloading off a trailer and went straight to the top of the board and practiced. P1 led both practices, qualified second, just barely missed the pole. I got a little loose into one and I remember just racing up front the whole race and, and for me, I was always a racer where I tried to position myself for the end, take care of my equipment and just position myself for when it mattered. And I, I said I wanted to take the lead with about 50 to go in my mind, in my mind. And I think I took it with like 49 to go and everything was working out great. I was like, man, we, this is, everything's. The car was great. I mean it was, I wasn't perfect, but it was good. And I remember I took two to go and I had a 10 car length lead and I'm just, right, I'm lifting early and just, just being smooth and I'm like, golly, I just gotta get 18 seconds, I just gotta get to the white, the white, I get to the white is black. Yeah, yeah. And I dive off into turn one and I see the caution lights and I'm like, oh no. Because I know you know how that show.

B (76:03)

Yeah.

A (76:04)

So we, we re rack them and we go green. And the, the first restart, well, the restart, we had had like 15 laps prior to that. The 14 got a good enough launch with me that when we come down the back stretch, I kind of killed the, the, the zero car out there and just kind of left him hanging. I didn't clear him, I left him hanging to make sure that 14 could get inside of them and get those guys racing and then I could drive away. Well, this restart, the 14 didn't get going and he had a bad restart. So when I come off a two, I'm in a, I'm in a predicament. Like if I, I can't really leave him hanging out there because it's the next car so far back.

B (76:49)

Like he's going to get to you.

A (76:51)

Yeah, yeah.

B (76:52)

He's just going. It's. Where do you want it, turn three or turn one?

A (76:55)

So I cleared him down the back and we get in a three. We're coming to the white and he moved me up the hill, which miss Martinsville. I would have done the same thing. That's why I didn't want to clear him. And so he moved me up the hill. We get down into. Get down the front stretch. I lead to the line on the top. We roll into one and I'm thinking in my head as we're going in front stretch, I'm always thinking about the next corner, no matter what. And we roll in there. I said, man, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get in here soft and let. Because I feel like he's gonna run me up the hill here. And I said when he runs me up the hill, I'm gonna turn under him and I'm going to be have positioned in a three and I'm going to win this race. We get into one, kind of does what exactly what I was expecting. I get the car pointed and I'm about to come down the hill and the 14 drives it in deep and I can feel the air pressure change. You know what it feels like when that car sticks a nose in there. So I had to completely bail on what I was going to do out of two. So that messes my exit of two up because I've got this car positioned to do come down the hill and get the wheel out of it. So now I gotta hold this 14 off. So I had to turn my focus on defense for a second and I kind of slapped a 14 with the left rear to kind of get, get break his momentum. But the problem is the 0 had such a good run out of 2. He put a pretty good gap on me down a straightaway. The only mistake he made, he entered three really low and gave me an opportunity to really arc the corner and, and have a lot of momentum getting to him. And I got to his bumper and of course, you know, I could have hit him harder, I could have spun him, whatever, but I didn't want to race that way. I. I tried to knock him up the hill enough and I turned under him. The problem was when I kind of hit him, I didn't have enough weight on my rear tires and I just kind of. I was spinning the tires up off of 4 and I was like, come on thing. And so I tried to break his momentum get him get in his door a little bit. And I ended up losing by a few inches. But it was a hell of a race. And, I mean, the kid did nothing wrong. Like, he did exactly what I would have done. It was. It was a lot of emotions at one time, though, because I was so close to going back to Victory Lane. Like, I hadn't won a race since 2019 because I hadn't hardly raced. And I almost just won at Martinsville. And so I was processing all of it. And when I jumped out the car, I'm like, I'm gonna go congratulate him because he did a bad to the bone job. Like, he, He. He did what. Exactly what he needed to do. So I remember going over there and give him a hug and told him he did a good job. And I remember his crew guys kind of looking at me funny when I was going over there.

B (79:43)

What you doing?

A (79:44)

Yeah, yeah. They weren't sure my reaction, you know, and so I remember all that, too, and just. I remember interviews and, you know, some of the questions I was asked, and I just remember hearing another team member when they asked a question just where I stacked up, and he had a response. It made me emotional, and it kind of hit me. And what do you think it was?

B (80:20)

What's the response?

A (80:23)

They. He just said I was the greatest of all time. And the guy that said it was a special one, like, it was Phil Warren's son, actually. So he carried some weight with me. And. But, yeah, it just hit me the way he said it. And the question that was asked, I can't remember exactly how it was asked from Weaver, but, yeah, it just hit me because I knew how special that moment was. I knew that that was something that I had missed so freaking much. Like, I had missed the competitive side of outsmarting. Like, not just driving, but in the car. I feel like I am always thinking. Like, I feel like that's why I was such a good racer. Like, I'm always thinking ahead in the race. I'm always thinking about the next corner. I'm always thinking about where I want to position myself. And it was so good to feel all that again. It was so good to be sitting in that car and figuring out how to maximize my day and figuring out how to be better than that guy and better than that guy, better than that guy. And figuring out their weaknesses and just the whole chess match is what I enjoy. It's. Man, it is. I tell my drivers all the time, don't take this for granted. Don't take it for granted because it can all be gone like that. They can all be gone, and I just want them to enjoy it. I want them to realize how lucky they are, because it was guys like me that would have gave anything to race race cars for a living, you know, anything like that was my dream from being a little kid and the whole experience up to this weekend and that journey that it's been to get there. That's why it meant so much to me, and that's why we had so much support from fans. That's why we had so much support from different sponsors. They could relate to it. They could relate to the blue collar guy that. That did things the hard way. And I think that your fan base has already been incredible. So to have Junior Nation behind me was super cool. But Junior Nation is hard to believe could grow any more than what it was, but it growed. It's continuing to grow, and people are appreciating the opportunity that you give guys like me.

B (82:58)

Well, I don't know if you'd have won that Martinsville race, whether you'd have got it. Yeah, I don't know. You know, I think back to, like, Brad Keselowski at Memphis getting spun out in that truck race, and if he wins that truck race, I don't. I don't know whether we end up working together. Justin Allgaier kind of got chewed up and spit out on. On in the cup deal and his opportunity at Penske and so forth, and I don't know, man. I kind of see something in guys that I think is there, and.

A (83:30)

Yeah.

B (83:32)

That I think that they could. You know, there's a. There's a diamond in the rough, so to speak. But something about that. I knew your story and something about how I watched that Martinsville race, and I was like, oh, you know, no. No way.

A (83:54)

That.

B (83:54)

That's his. You know, you worked every. You worked as hard as you could to put yourself in position to win that race, but the universe didn't. Yeah, that wasn't in the plan.

A (84:04)

Yep.

B (84:05)

Whatever reason. Right. And we don't always get the answers to why certain things go the way they go, and, hell, it's just competition. It's just racing, but it.

A (84:14)

It matters.

B (84:14)

It matters.

A (84:15)

Yeah.

B (84:16)

And honestly, man, that race and you running second and you getting out and handling it the way you did, and. And it shined a light on you, and it. I mean, it compelled me to try to. Try to figure out a way for you to get an opportunity to know what it feels like to be at least O'Reilly level, right? Yeah. And I'm like, hey, you know, let's figure this out. You know, we did. You. You were part of that. You know, you. We. I got with you, and I said, hey, this is what we got to do. We got to find some support. We got it. We can do this much, and we can find this much. And it was. It was all, I think, feasible and realistic, and. And we were able to, you know, start. We were able to commit to making it happen. And then you continue to work on your health and your physical fitness. We gave you all the same time we could. Which you took advantage of. You were not comfortable in the sim, out of the gate with motion sickness and all that stuff. But what did you do? What did you do to. Instead of like, look, if I get in the sim, the motion sim, I don't love it. Yeah, some. Some. Some sessions, I'm all right, and the next session I'll get in and get sick.

A (85:35)

Yeah.

B (85:38)

Most guys, when they experience that, they're like, I get back in that thing. I'll do the static rig over here, but I ain't gonna do that motion rig. Let's figure it out. You're like, no, man, I need to do it. And so you got these VR glasses and started putting yourself through a lot of personal training sessions on your own time so that when you would get in the sim, you were better, less affected, I suppose, by the motion sickness. Like, who thinks to do those types of things? How did you even hear about that?

A (86:08)

Well, when I first went there and did it that first session, I threw up four times at Pratt and Miller. I'd run outside and throw up, and it was all I could do to drive a car. But I would go out. I brought my bike with me because I had heard that if you throw your. Whenever you throw up, you jump on a bike, it'll help you equilibrium, and then you can get back in there. So I would just make a circle in a parking lot. I would run back in and jump in the machine, because I know it cannot be cheap to be at Pratt Miller. So I had multiple things going through my mind. I don't want to waste these guys time. Like, we got all these engineers here. We've. I've got to get as much laps as I can in this thing, because this is what we're going to unload with whatever I decide. Yeah. So I would literally go throw up, jump a bike, run back in, get in. I'd get about 15, 20 minutes. I'd have to throw up, do it back in. So actually, my crew chief and Reagan was like, we've heard that virtual reality glasses, you know, can help train you for that. And I was like, really? And I was like, yeah, because I didn't grow up playing video games because I was working. Every extra hour I had was spent working trying to make it in this sport. So video games were new to me. I didn't. I'd never done it. So I was researching and talked to Butterbean about it, you know, and trying to figure out things and ended up getting this virtual reality stuff. Meta Quest 3, I believe, is what it is. But anyhow, I got this boxing game because I'm trying to work out and I've lost 40 pounds of weight and I've put on muscle. And so I'm like, well, if I'm a video game, I want it to be something that's going to help me as well for the race car. So I'm boxing on this game all the time, and I don't think the glasses are working right. Like, I remember the first time I took them off, I felt like a little funny, but I'm like, I don't know. I don't think this is going to help, but I'm going to keep doing it. So I kept doing it. And the next time I got an emotion rig, I was perfectly fine. I had zero issues. I never got out the car, did the full session, and I was like, that's amazing. Like, I had amazing. I put a lot of time into those virtual reality glasses, but somewhere deep inside of me, I didn't know you

B (88:31)

might be wasting time.

A (88:32)

Yeah, yeah. But it wasn't. It was definitely worth it.

B (88:34)

I've had that.

A (88:35)

But I know how important it is to be able to film well.

B (88:39)

I just think it's interesting to highlight how, like, you didn't. You didn't give up on the idea, Right. You just found a solution or you are willing to do something that felt somewhat monotonous or even foolish.

A (88:52)

You didn't give up on me, right? Yeah. Well, you didn't give up on me. You gave me an opportunity, and that's to me. I want to show my appreciation by giving everything I got today. I got here hour early and I thanked every person that I could find in the shop from the fab shop all the way around. Because I build race cars. I know how much works in them. I know the time it takes to put a product on a racetrack like I drove this weekend. And they are incredible race cars. And the Opportunity to do something here. The opportunity to swipe this key card and be able to get in this shop is something I dreamed of doing my entire life and something I wanted to do my entire life. It feels like home to me. And I just want everybody to know how appreciative I am. And I'm not going to give a half ass effort. I mean, you don't, you're giving me the opportunity. I always want it. Why would I stop short? Yeah, no, that's not happening.

B (89:58)

You worked hard all through the whole process to be ready. And I told you, I said, man, you're going to get, you know the track, right? So when you pull out on a racetrack and it's a rally car, you know, you go going to recognize everything, but you know you're sitting in a car that's going to accelerate differently, it's going to have different ride quality, the tires are going to feel different. It's going to do. All these brakes will be different. But I told you, I was like three or four corners, it's going to all just like merge into, you know, it's all just going to start making sense. So your first, you've been in a sim, you ain't really drove the car ever. You ain't, you didn't go to Rockingham and test or do none of that? No. What was the first lapse on the racetrack like? I want to know. I guess before that, how excited were you to finally swing your leg over the door?

A (90:48)

It was a lot like I remember when I, Flo was videoing me swinging my leg over the door and I, and I looked at that video and I kind of can see myself take a deep breath. Like I can see myself because I'm mentally like outside of the race car. I was super emotional inside the race car. I'm locked in. As soon as I get in, I'm locked.

B (91:09)

Oh yeah.

A (91:09)

But I remember trying to take the moment in and I remember talking to all my teammates. I remember thanking my team. I remember looking around at the place and being in that venue and knowing what I was about to do. And I remember my leg being weak when I went to throw it over the door. And after that I was fine. But it was, it was incredible. Like it was all like the time was going by so fast. Like I'm trying, like I was trying to maximize every part of it from tech to the track walk to every part of it. And I knew that every moment was the next, was the next thing I was looking forward to. But also, man, I Might not ever experience that moment.

B (91:58)

There ain't no time to reflect.

A (92:00)

No.

B (92:00)

No, sir. So because they got the way they do the schedule, it's bam, bam, bam, bam.

A (92:04)

Yeah.

B (92:06)

And the day's over. And you're like, yeah.

A (92:08)

And I knew how fast it was coming by, so it was. It was crazy.

B (92:12)

But I'll never forget this. We are at Homestead and I ran. I ran a race there against Josh probably, I don't know, four years ago. It seems like one of my little one offs. I did. No, this was. It was about four or five years. So I'm there and we go out and practice and we're like 14th or something. We're all right. And I get out of the car and I'm like, all right, y'. All. I think this and that and other. And they're like, you need to get back in. I was like, what do you mean practice is over? They're like, you're second to go out. And they're lining them up. And I'm like, like, I gotta. You know how you need like a few minutes to do that qualifying this for a quick. Just to get your mind wrapped around qualifying. And I'm like, damn, I got to jump right in there and go right back out. And now I'm going to have new tires taped off, cold, fired off. You know, I'm just. My mom was like, yeah, this is like Timmy Hill has to live every week.

A (93:04)

Yeah.

B (93:04)

You know, I'm not locked in. I don't know how the hell this is going to go. I don't know where to run. You know, there's all kinds of damn lines all over Homestead, but it was just like a bam, bam thing. And I was like, how the hell. Why in the hell is NASCAR doing it like this? Why can a guy not get out and reflect for a minute?

A (93:22)

So for fans that wouldn't know, like our practice session, I'd never drove a car in my life.

B (93:26)

Right.

A (93:26)

Our practice session was from 4:30 to 5:20. We got rain coming, so I'm gonna get 50 minutes in something I've never done. And then we got practice over 5:20. Qualifying starts at 5:30. It's 10 minutes. 10 minutes goes by like, damn right. It takes you 10 minutes to get out the car and get back in the car.

B (93:45)

Exactly.

A (93:45)

So like, for you to beat a second roll out. Yeah, it was time to jump back in. So, yeah, it's hard. It's kind of hard to explain to people, but it rolls by quick and it's. It's. I was Trying to not let those moments fleet, but at the same time, I was trying to be super locked in and focused on my race car.

B (94:02)

Ready for what's next. Yeah, it's coming fast. Yeah.

A (94:06)

And I felt. So. I felt good leading into qualifying and then it started to rain. I was like, so. But I was lucky. The 9 car has run enough that we had solid points. Solid points. So that was a blessing. Um, but. But yeah, when I rolled out on the racetrack, I ended up, you know, I was trying to get heat into brakes and stuff like that, and I ended up rolling in behind Sheldon Creed and because I knew he's a good racer, you know, so, like, when he went by, like, that's a guy, I was kind of, let's see what we got. Let's see. Yeah. So I remember running with him for like 20 laps and actually ended up passing him. And I was like, well, we're going to be okay right here because he's. He's a good racer. But. But. So I felt pretty confident at that point. But the, the car, we had planned to make like a 60 lap run, but the first run out, I was too free, like to just. Just needed to get more lateral grip in it. So we come in, we tightened it up, and they've made a, you know, we pulled a spring rubber or some out of the right rear and yeah, it made a big difference. So went back out there and I felt comfortable then. So it was, it was, it was a surreal experience though because, like, when you drive that sim, it seems pretty difficult to. Yeah, it's pretty difficult to drive, but it definitely replicated very similar to how the race car felt.

B (95:24)

Yes. You know, I agree. I simmed at Bristol quite a lot over the last couple of years with our cars trying to go run races there. And I was really, really impressed with how I was able to take everything I was learning in my mock runs and apply it perfectly to the mock run and qualifying, because that's really my weak point is qualifying. And the sim was so, so helpful and it helped us too. We would. They'd be like, here's Sam Mayer's setup. It's really good. All right. I like it. All right, we want to try right rear shock. Tell me what it does. Well, a little bit better. Drive off more, turn in the middle. Well, all right. We like that. Leave that on and then you go race it. And you're like, damn right it's fast.

A (96:04)

It's so crazy. Yeah, I told my guys. I was like, it's hard to believe that you can feel the shock changes. Like they put the shock on and it's like driving a real race car. Like you literally feel what it does.

B (96:15)

It's crazy. It ain't been like that long. The SIM wasn't very useful. Let's say six years ago.

A (96:21)

Yeah.

B (96:22)

But now pretty dialing it in. That's the, that's the O'Reilly Sam. Which is, you know, the cup's probably miles, miles, miles better. But Saturday I want to kind of fast forward to standing by the car. You know, you got the moments before we get in the race car when I go run. And this was the way it was too when I was a full time driver. Those are some of the harder moments because you don't want to not take appreciation for everybody who's in, in your vicinity. Right. But at the same time, you want nothing more than to climb in that car.

A (97:10)

Yeah.

B (97:11)

And get kind of get away from everything because in the car it's like you cut the landline, nobody can reach you. You're in there by yourself and it's finally time for you to relax and lock in. And so the, you know, the, the post driver intro sort of that little 20 minute window is a, is a strange time.

A (97:34)

Right? Yeah.

B (97:35)

And, but this was a, this was a. You, you know, this was a little bit different for you. My favorite. You know, you got a lot of people there that are partners, friends, people that have helped you get to this opportunity and you want to take opportunities to take photos and document today and, and all of those things and we get through all of that process and that's, that's typical, typical stuff. My favorite. And I hate, hate to take you here emotionally.

A (97:58)

Yeah. But. Because I know you're, I know where you're going.

B (98:01)

Listen, dude, I'm telling you, this was really cool. I'm a, I'm a, I'm a girl, dad. I got little 5 and 7 year old. Your daughter's around the same age, but she seems absolutely aware of what, you know, what, she's, what's happening that day, what y' all were doing. She was, she was, I was watching her and trying to compare her to my child and, and she, you know, she. My girls go to the race and they're still not sure what racing is. Right. They're not sure what we're doing there and why I'm in that car. You know, daddy's out there in that car. He's out there. Where is he at? You know, why is he not in the camper? Where is he? And so My girls are still sort of a bit oblivious to some of the. Some of the things, and we'll get there one day with them, but. Yeah. And I'm sure your daughter is a child at heart, but. But I'm telling you, man, it was a special moment. It was the. The. We raced all day. We led laps. We had fun. You got to do all these great things, and you got to experience the lows and the highs. You did it all. But the best moment of the day for me happened before the race ever started.

A (99:15)

Yeah.

B (99:16)

So I'm standing over the right front. She comes up to you, your wife and her close by. They had been. They'd been within, you know, within arm's reach for the last several minutes, kind of hanging around, waiting, and, you know, allowing photos and other things to happen. And you waved her over. She comes over to you, right?

A (99:33)

Yeah.

B (99:33)

And y' all had a moment where you knelt down and gave her a hug, and she got emotional, and you got emotional. Now I understand why you got emotional.

A (99:41)

Yeah.

B (99:41)

Right. But it was really profound for me to see your daughter recognize in that moment how important this was for you. What a. What a. What a cool. I think what. That's. Got to feel so good as a dad. Right. Forget the race, forget how important this is in your life to be able to experience this one thing. You got to feel so good as a dad to have a daughter that recognizes how important that was for you and how happy she was to see you get to do it. That's what I saw. I saw her emotional and thankful and. And knowing my dad's getting ready to do something he's dreamed about. I have to imagine that you. Y' all must have had some conversations.

A (100:30)

Yeah.

B (100:31)

Leading up to this. You must have shared with her.

A (100:35)

She knew how special it was.

B (100:36)

Yeah. And then you made it. You made it aware. You made it, and, you know, you made her aware of it, and she was able to go there, and you know how much that mattered to her now that she knows and understands all this. And your wife sat on the pit box behind me the whole race, and I knew the whole time. She knew exactly how important every single lap was. We watched you come off, turn four, time over time, time after time after time, just soaking it in, just realizing how big a grin you had on your face, you know? But I thought that was. Of all things that happened that day, that embrace with her and how connected to the moment she was, was impressive to me.

A (101:14)

Yeah. She's. That's been really special because she's at an age where she understands how much it meant to me. She saw dad working, she saw dad running up back and forth, running miles on the driveway in the farm. She saw, she saw me being like an 18 year old kid but, but I was her dad, you know, she saw that fire in me and she, man she's been like my biggest supporter. And just. When we had the post, when we had that post race meeting Monday morning here.

B (102:04)

Yeah, the team meeting.

A (102:06)

Yep. I'm tell you how aware she is. Well left. She said daddy, you're not gonna get in trouble, are you? And I said, I said, I said, I said I don't know baby. I said I think they really impressed with my racing. I said I'm probably going to be critiqued on my restarts. I said but that's okay. I said that's part of life. I said I critique you on things. And I said dad knows he needed to be better there. And I said I'm gonna be fine. I said there's a lot of people there to support me and have, have reached out to me and told me hey, I've done it before, I've had this issue. I said so I'm be fine. But that's all she could think about that morning. She didn't want dad to be in trouble at this meeting. So she is so aware of the everything and she knows that I wanted to be perfect. Yeah, she knows that how much it meant to me and she knows that disappoint like the disappointment I felt of making that mistake. She knew, she could feel that, she knew that how much that had weighed on me that weekend. Like she knew that I had a great time and a great experience. But that morning like she's just so aware of so many things and if three or four years ago she wouldn't have been so she's nine now and it's just kind of amazing to be at that point in life. But yeah, when I gave her the hug I just told her this is why you never give up on your dreams. And I said whatever you dream of you, you fight for and you just never give up. And so yeah, yeah that was definitely a special time for me for sure and something I'll never forget. So yeah, but what are your, what's

B (104:04)

been the conversations with your wife? She has to, you know for all these years she's had to sacrifice handle business at home. You had to go do and go be and working on cars for decades. Yeah but I mean she, she was over my shoulder that whole race right There in the dugout, you know?

A (104:24)

Yeah. Incredible support, for sure. She.

B (104:28)

What was her. What was her opinion of the whole experience?

A (104:33)

She was as relieved as anybody that. That the opportunity finally came. She. She knows how much it meant to me. She knows how tough it was for me not to drive race cars. She gets those in personal conversations that the rest of the world doesn't get, you know, and she knows that I always felt like I should have made it or should have, you know, woulda would have done well if I did feel. What's the house feel like today, man? It's. They are so proud and happy and just. Yeah, it's, you know.

B (105:11)

Do you feel like that you got to check a box?

A (105:14)

Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

B (105:16)

Did you turn the page and see a whole bunch of empty boxes? You got a check still?

A (105:22)

It's still. It's still. I. I got both. Right? Like, I. The thing for me is I feel like I can win on that level. I feel like I can win. Racist said. Like, it was like, I checked that box and I'm gonna forever be grateful for it. But now.

B (105:38)

Now you wanna taste?

A (105:40)

Yeah, it's. It's. It's a addiction, you know, like, you get. You get in that thing and, you know, if you go out there and run 20th, you'd be like, maybe I just ain't got it. But when you feel like you can win a race, you're like.

B (105:55)

You're like, to do this 37 years old.

A (105:58)

Yeah.

B (105:58)

I mean, you fit. You fit the Denny Hamlin mold. Kind of came from the same background. You've kind of got the same mentality, probably the similar ability in terms of raw talent. You might be one of those guys that's got eight really damn good years. Yeah. Tank.

A (106:16)

I feel like I do. You know, I feel like I'm in the best shape of my life. I have trained hard. Like, I ain't seen ABs in 20 years, and here they are. They're coming back. So I think. Funny, I think when I. When I get out of the race,

B (106:34)

I ain't never seen abs

A (106:37)

when I get out of the race car that, like, the other day, I was like, man, well, sweating or nothing. Like, I was ready to go another 300 laps. Like, so for me, I feel like, yes, I got a lot in the tank. Like, I gotta make. Like, I know if I was to make something happen, I gotta make it happen soon. Yeah. But I feel like I could win races and be very successful at this level and give somebody a tremendous amount of effort, because I don't take it for granted. It's easy to. And it's not 100. It's not their fault. But it's easy to take it for granted when you're younger because maybe you've had the sponsor that kind of been supporting you, and you've got this path and this plan, and it's all kind of worked out. And it's easy for those guys to take that for granted now. They don't all take it for granted. Don't get me wrong. But it would be a lot easier.

B (107:36)

I'll help. I mean, in my first 10 years in the Cup Series, I, you know, I had no idea what I had at my fingertips.

A (107:43)

Yeah.

B (107:44)

You know, I didn't. I didn't really understand exactly how lucky I was till toward the back.

A (107:49)

Yeah. And I get that. And that's. That's. I feel like that's my strength for someone is because I've wanted it for so long, I had to go so long without it, and now I feel like, man, I have worked. I have worked every part of the sport I have spotted. I have owned the cars, I have crew chiefd. I have drove, driven. I have done the tires. There's no part of the sport I have built a suspension. I put bodies on. There's no part of the sport I haven't done. So I think that's a big strength of mine. Like, I know that these people that are working on our cars and spending the time in these cars out there, the other people that make us look good on tv, like, those people are what creates speed and opportunities for these drivers to have success. And I feel like that, you know, I've tried to go above and beyond on being, you know, being a part of the team and just working really hard on remembering everybody's names and just because that's personal. Yeah. You know, you don't want to just thank people. You want to be personal with them. And I. I've made it a point to. To do that. And it's just there's not many times that you could find a driver with wisdom and a lot of experience that has a fire at my age, because at this point, they're all getting burned out.

B (109:17)

Yeah.

A (109:17)

And I don't think, like, their talent level, like Denny Hamlin has done a tremendous job of not being burned out,

B (109:24)

staying in there, because he's an. He's an anomaly.

A (109:27)

His talent is just as good or better than what it was 15 years ago.

B (109:32)

So that's drive to be great.

A (109:33)

Yeah.

B (109:34)

Is as strong as it's Ever been.

A (109:36)

And I think that's my strength is I went so long without it.

B (109:38)

My fire now is just my opinion is, you know, I, I, me and you had a conversation yesterday. The what is next for Lee Pulliam? So nobody knows when, when the next phone call might come, if it might come. We have, we can't sit here and plot a course or a path. We just, we can't. Right. And that's not, that's not realistic for anybody. It took us 10 years to get Josh Berry.

A (110:11)

Yeah.

B (110:11)

Into, you know, into a ride in Xfinity series and Carson Kwapple happened a little much, much quicker, you know, just by chance and happenstance. But two very similar dudes that had two different, completely different paths to get in there. You've had an opportunity to race our car and JRM is going to turn over stones and try to figure out opportunities to create more chances to do that. I think that, and I'm saying this publicly, which I've already told you, I think that there are truck teams, there are o' rally teams that maybe have some inventory. It's very slim, but there is some inventory out there of a race or two where I'd consider a guy like you just how the way that you have came into our building and the impact that you've had on the people that you've connected with here and how great of an experience it was for our team to go to the racetrack with you. They love the emotion, they love the passion, they love how, how much it mattered to you. And it energized them.

A (111:23)

Yeah.

B (111:24)

You know, and I think you, I think other teams would benefit, you know, from that same experience. You gotta, you know, if you got a, you know, one of the, one of the top 15 or top 20 trucker or rally teams out there that needs a little shot in the arm and tor in terms of culture or some energy on the shop floor, that'd be a heck of an opportunity for them where not only are you getting some out of it, I think the team benefits from that experience as well. But I'm hoping, and I'm hoping that the, the opportunities come. I really do. If they don't, you have a long Runway in front of you to do basically about anything you want. You would be a valuable asset in any race shop in just about any role. Like, if you truly, you know, setting the racing aside for a minute, you're 37 years old. You know, you just told me, you know the sport like the back of your hand. You know every role, you know how to Manage people. You know, how to run a race team. Like, there's not a role in a shop like ours or any o' rally or truck series team, maybe even cup teams. There's not a role in there that you wouldn't be able to find yourself in and be comfortable. And so regardless of how many years you race, I think that a future in this sport in some capacity, even beyond our cars, Tour and late model stock ranks, I believe there's real potential there for you and huge value for whoever would give you that opportunity. I'm going to, as your friend, always encourage you, you know, to, to, to find opportunity and to, to seek opportunity. I know you probably enjoy where you live. You enjoy your farm. You've worked hard to. To have those things, and you can, you can have them. You can have them, you know, and a role in, in whatever part of, you know, the motorsports world you want, make a living doing it right. But we'll always be in your corner, man. It's.

A (113:36)

Appreciate it, dude.

B (113:38)

I, I've. When. When you raced against Josh, you were a competitor. We admired you, we respected you, but you were a guy we wanted to beat. Josh told me that you were a good dude and that. That he respected you. And though I, I assume those same feelings because of my trust in Josh and, And what he sees and does out on the racetrack with you, and I'm thankful, you know, I didn't know that this would happen. I wouldn't, I couldn't have told you three years ago we'd be doing this right. But whatever. It's. You know, that. That night at Martinsville, again, I don't know if you got that opportunity if you win that race. Yeah, I really don't.

A (114:22)

My wife said it best the other night. She was like, when we rode home from Martinsville that night, you were dejected and, you know, disappointed. And he's like, look what door opened from. From that. And she said the other night when I was kicking myself for, you know, missing a shift and tearing up cars because I know how much money and time and ideas. She knew that I was beating myself up that night. And she was like, last September, we rode home with the same feeling. She was like, you did incredible today. Like, you did what people didn't. A lot of people didn't realize what you could do. And she was like, we've been here before. And she's like, just trust the process.

B (115:08)

That's right.

A (115:09)

So she's been encouraging on that aspect of it and supportive, and that part means a lot because for Me, I've always been critical of my mistakes more so than what I did. Right. And I just. Just always wanted to be perfect and do that. And it's. This is a difficult, difficult sport to be that way. But I feel like the only way that you get better, you got to critique yourself and be hard on yourself at times, but you also got to move on from it and be confident at the next one that, hey, I'm going to kill it today. And that's. That's the part, like, you can have your little. Feel sorry for yourself a little bit, but it's time to roll on.

B (115:50)

I love that, man. I'm telling you. Takes. She's a. She's. She's a great example of. Of what it takes to dig ourselves out of some of them moments.

A (116:05)

Yeah.

B (116:05)

You got to have somebody in the, you know, riding in the car with you to tell you to get your head out of your ass. You know, that's right. And she's right. Like, you know, that. That Martinsville race opened the door. What happened this past weekend will open a door. It don't. You don't know what's on the other side of it, but it's going to create opportunity. More people know who you are than they did the week before. Yeah. And you're a better race car driver, a better person than you were a week before. All those. All through that experience, you're. You're better off now, today. And, and certainly there's some benefit and some things in your future that are. That are going to come from it, and we'll just have to wait and see what that is. I know there's a lot of people that want to see you back on the racetrack in one of the top three NASCAR series. Very soon. They'll be asking us all the time when we're going to put Lee back in the car. I'm going to be hearing that next year.

A (117:02)

I've seen it. Oh, yeah, I've seen it.

B (117:04)

When are you going to put Lee back in the car? I know Folsom Fence Supply was a big supporter of what you did. Jerky boys got an opportunity to ride on board. You know, brc, you got a lot of partners that have helped you create opportunity like this that are still with you today and supporting everything you do.

A (117:24)

Yeah, no, those guys are awesome. Carolina Drilling was on it and just. Yeah, it was. It was a special deal.

B (117:30)

So you brought them through the. You brought several of them through the shop. Man, it was great to meet them, great to hear their energy and Excitement around. Racing around you.

A (117:38)

Yeah. And they're racers.

B (117:40)

They are racers.

A (117:40)

They're racers.

B (117:41)

So that was a lot of fun, man. It was a. Was a great experience. It went. It went as smooth as I could hope it could go. But what I really. What I really was thankful for. So if I can be frank for a minute, I walked into. I called Kelly up and LW and everybody, and I said, y', all, I want to do this. I want to run this race. I won't leave to drive the car. Nobody said no. Nobody said why. Everybody just said, all right, what you want to do? We'll figure it out. Like, I was waiting on the. Well, tell us why, or let me tell you all the reasons why we shouldn't do that. Right. I mean, there's all kinds of, you know, financial repercussions or what have you, Right? Nobody ever said anything. And one of my favorite things about it was Philip, our crew chief. Your crew chief for the weekend. He enjoyed this more than he could have imagined. And he speaks for Big Mike. All of you, pick a. Pull an employee out of that shop right there. Not just the guys that went to the racetrack with the 9 car. Even the guys on the other team are probably looking over there going, damn, that's cool. I've got text messages from people all over the motorsports spectrum, world outlaws, whatever, you name it, telling me how they didn't even know who Lee was. And, man, they love what. What he's doing. They love what he did. And so, you know, you came in here, great attitude, worked hard. Our guys enjoyed every minute of it. And they loved having that opportunity to go the racetrack and. And be a part of that.

A (119:26)

Yeah.

B (119:27)

And be a part of that team with you. So, dude, we'll see what's next. All right.

A (119:33)

Yeah, I appreciate it.

B (119:34)

We're gonna work hard, and we'll be in your corner supporting anything and everything we can do. It's been a pleasure, man.

A (119:41)

I'm here.

B (119:42)

Where am I gonna see you at Nashville in a couple weeks?

A (119:45)

Yeah, I.

B (119:47)

You gonna send your race car to the cars tour without you?

A (119:51)

I'll be. I'll be there with Carson Brown.

B (119:53)

All right.

A (119:54)

Yeah, no, I'll be there. I'll be at South Boston this weekend.

B (119:57)

Damn. You racing?

A (119:58)

No, we're kind of a little bit behind into race shot right now. We actually blew an engine up last week, so we're. I'll be catching up a little.

B (120:07)

I saw that.

A (120:07)

Yeah.

B (120:08)

Well, I can't wait. I mean, I'll probably talk to you. See you before Then. But I can't wait to go to Nashville.

A (120:12)

Yeah. I hope you have a ball, man.

B (120:13)

I hope so.

A (120:14)

Yeah.

B (120:14)

I need a good time behind the wheel. Yeah, you put the pressure on whatever

A (120:18)

I can help you with. Yeah.

B (120:20)

Hi, buddy. We pull him on the Delgener download. Yeah, that was fun. I've, I've, I've not done a deep dive into Lee's career, and that was so much fun to get. We got to a point where it's like, you know, obnoxious how many races this guy was winning every year. And I thought that was fun to drive home to the, to the listener who's probably like, you know, I know this guy was good, and he got this shot to run O'Reilly car this weekend. But now, you know, like, this guy was out there winning an ungodly amount of races year after year after year, just going to any track he wanted to and just dominating. They must have been pretty disappointed and dejected when they would see Lee Pulliam pull into the Motor Mile after racing at South Boston one year, and he shows up at the first race at Motor Mile, and they're like, damn, is he going to be here every week? But the dude, I mean, you don't go win 15, 20 races a year at the same racetrack, you know, year after year. But his, he's one of those guys, you know, we talk about Butcher Lindley, he won 500 short track races or some. Larry Phillips won an ungodly amount of short track races. Ralph Earnhardt won some 400, 500 races in his time. There's all these guys that in certain decades were just, you know, just winning everything. And Lee was that guy for a little, you know, window of five to six years there, he was the guy. And so if, if there's a list of names that should have gotten an opportunity that never did, his name's got to be near the top. And, you know, I'm glad he got a chance to drive the car this weekend. I'm glad he got a chance to say, hey, man, I know what that experience is like. I know what a weekend is like for these guys. I know what they go through. I know what they feel. I know the emotions. I know this, the nerves, I know the anticipation, all those things. Right. He can only imagine before. Now he has a real understanding and he's probably got a real appreciation for it, having been on the sidelines all these years, and we'll see what happens going forward, but he certainly deserves more opportunity. And I. It's one of them things where it's kind of like, hey, he's a, you know, he's a guy that honestly I feel like does have a, you know, a solid eight year Runway where he could go somewhere and be a, be a very competitive, successful driver, at least at the truck or O'Reilly level for a team. So just don't know how many opportunities there are out there for a guy that can't really bring much funding because, you know, he's got some help, some support, but not the, not the full season, not the, not the big ticket that a lot of teams. I mean, there's, you know, I think it'd be fun one day to sit down and do a spreadsheet of truck O'Reilly and go, yep, what's the level of funding the driver is bringing to this operation? You know, because it's more prevalent throughout the series than maybe we even realize. Right. And Lee's not a guy that is going to be able to bring a giant amount of funding or a large sum of funding to get himself that type of opportunity. But man, just fun to talk to him, fun to learn about his career. And now I think hopefully people that didn't know Lee know him a whole lot better. And you can follow, you know, he's going to be doing something as an owner, as a driver. You can, you know, if you want to, you know, pull for Lee. You'll have these outlets and opportunities in the next several years as he continues to compete. But that was a, that was a fun conversation. Thank you, Lee, for joining us here in the Arby's studio. Don't forget about Arby's new meat and three box. You get more meal for your money at Arby's. We have the meats. We'll see you Thursday. Check out dirty mo media on instagram, facebook x and tik tok.