Hour 2 – Who Will Replace Thibodeau in NY?, Vincent Goodwill

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Dan Patrick Show – Hour 2: "Who Will Replace Thibodeau in NY?, Vincent Goodwill"

Release Date: June 4, 2025

---

Introduction

In the second hour of "The Dan Patrick Show," hosted by iHeartPodcasts and the Dan Patrick Podcast Network, Dan Patrick and his co-hosts delve deep into the recent firing of Tom Thibodeau as the head coach of the New York Knicks. Joined by special guest Vincent Goodwill from Yahoo Sports, the discussion navigates through the reasons behind the managerial decision, evaluates potential replacement candidates, and analyzes the broader implications for the Knicks' future.

---

Tom Thibodeau's Firing: Overachievement or Underperformance?

The episode kicks off with a heated debate about the New York Knicks' decision to fire Tom Thibodeau, despite the team reaching the Eastern Conference Finals—an achievement many did not foresee.

Dan Patrick expresses confusion over the decision:

"When does management decide that Tom Thibodeau is not the right guy for the job? Was it that game one and then game two? Was it when he went to his bench finally?" ([00:18])

Co-hosts highlight that the Knicks might have been overachieving under Thibodeau, questioning whether the expectations set by the franchise were too high despite the team's performance.

Tom Brokaw adds:

"If you make the Eastern Conference finals in a year where nobody expected you to get out of the second round... and that's not enough for you to keep your job, that meant that nothing was going to enable you to keep your job." ([19:26])

Poll Results: "Nutsy or Gutsy?"

Dan Patrick introduces a poll regarding Thibodeau's firing, revealing that 83% of listeners deem the move "nutsy."

"We put up there the Knicks are nutsy or gutsy by firing their head Coach... 83% are saying nutsy." ([03:27])

Potential Replacements for Thibodeau

The core of the discussion revolves around identifying a suitable successor for Thibodeau. Several coaching candidates are evaluated:

1. Michael Malone (Denver Nuggets)

   • Pros: Proven track record, currently leading the Nuggets.
   • Cons: Similar managerial style to Thibodeau, potential lack of innovation.

   Tom Brokaw questions:

   "Wasn't Michael Malone fired in large part because of his inability to work with the front office to develop young players? Isn't that one of the complaints about Tom Thibodeau?" ([23:38])

2. Johnny Bryant (Cleveland Cavaliers Assistant)

   • Pros: Experience as an associate head coach.
   • Cons: Limited visibility, uncertain adaptability to Knicks' environment.

3. Jay Wright, Mike Budenhoser, Rick Brunson, Monty Williams, John Calipari, Danny Hurley, Jeff Van Gundy, Rick Pitino

   • Each candidate is briefly discussed, weighing their strengths and potential fit. Notably, Danny Hurley is scrutinized for his temperament and suitability under the intense New York media scrutiny.

   Tom Brokaw remarks on Hurley:

   "I don't think Danny Hurley has the sort of temperament... the scrutiny of the New York media." ([25:17])

Insights from Vincent Goodwill

Vincent Goodwill provides an in-depth analysis of the Knicks' situation:

• Overachievement Argument: Despite Thibodeau's success in leading the Knicks to unforeseen heights, the Knicks' management possibly deemed that the organizational structure and roster were not aligned for sustained success.

• Roster Challenges: The Knicks' roster is described as "top-heavy," with significant investment but lacking depth and versatility. Issues between key players like Karl-Anthony Towns and Jalen Brunson are highlighted as detrimental to team chemistry.

  Goodwill states:

  "They are second apron team... maybe that's the reason." ([23:38])

• Defensive Concerns: The team’s defensive shortcomings, particularly Carl-Anthony Towns' inability to defend effectively, are examined as factors that might have influenced the decision to part ways with Thibodeau.

  Goodwill comments:

  "We've already seen... Carl Anthony Towns, that he can't play defense." ([27:12])

Team Chemistry and Player Dynamics

The hosts discuss the interplay between offensive prowess and defensive weaknesses within the Knicks:

• Offense vs. Defense: Carl-Anthony Towns’ offensive talent is contrasted with his defensive limitations. The team’s reliance on his scoring is seen as a potential vulnerability.

  Tom Brokaw notes:

  "We saw Carl Towns with Rudy Gobert... they surround him with defensive players." ([27:12])

• Jalen Brunson's Role: Brunson’s limited defense and its impact on the team’s dynamics are debated, suggesting that without a strong defensive backbone, the Knicks’ prospects remain uncertain.

Management and Media Expectations

The intense scrutiny from New York's media and the high expectations from the fanbase place additional pressure on the Knicks' management. The hosts argue that despite success, the lack of clear communication from management regarding their decision leaves fans frustrated and seeking accountability.

Dan Patrick emphasizes:

"If you make a move, you fire a coach or hire a coach, you should get in front of the media... you got to get in front of the media here, right?" ([22:20])

Conclusion: The Future of the New York Knicks

As the episode wraps up, the consensus among the hosts and Vincent Goodwill is that the Knicks' management faces the challenge of aligning their high expectations with realistic team capabilities. The firing of Tom Thibodeau, while controversial, might signal a shift towards a different organizational strategy, albeit one that requires careful selection of a coach who can navigate both the team's talent and the pressures of New York City's sports landscape.

---

Notable Quotes

• Dan Patrick ([00:18]): "When does management decide that Tom Thibodeau is not the right guy for the job?"

• Tom Brokaw ([19:26]): "If you make the Eastern Conference finals... that's not enough for you to keep your job."

• Vincent Goodwill ([23:38]): "They are second apron team... maybe that's the reason."

• Tom Brokaw ([27:12]): "We've already seen... Carl Anthony Towns, that he can't play defense."

• Dan Patrick ([22:20]): "If you make a move, you fire a coach or hire a coach, you should get in front of the media."

---

Final Thoughts

This episode provides a comprehensive analysis of the New York Knicks' recent coaching changes, exploring the intricate balance between team performance, management expectations, and media pressures. With expert insights from Vincent Goodwill, listeners gain a deeper understanding of the complexities involved in professional sports management and the challenging path ahead for the Knicks.

Transcript

[Dan Patrick]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Tom Brokaw]

NBC Nightly News legacy isn't handed down or NBC News. I'm Tom Brokaw.

[Dan Patrick]

We hope to see you back here. I'm Lester Holt. It's carried forward.

[Tom Brokaw]

Tom Yamas is there for us. Firefighters are still working around the clock.

[Dan Patrick]

As the world changes, we look for what endures.

[Tom Brokaw]

We are coming on the air with.

[Dan Patrick]

Breaking news right now.

[Tom Brokaw]

We look for a constant and from.

[Dan Patrick]

One era to the next, trust is the anchor For NBC Nightly News. I'm Tom Yamas. A new chapter begins. NBC Nightly News with Tom Yamas. Evenings on NBC, you are listening to the Dan Patrick show on Fox Sports Radio. Good but not good enough, which describes us, but maybe Tom Thibodeau as well. 877-3-DP Show. Email address [e-mail] Twitter handle @dpshow. Good morning. If you're watching on Peacock or listening on our radio affiliates around the country. Good but not good enough with Tom Thibodeau got your team to the Eastern Conference finals probably against a few odds, but the fact you had home court advantage against the Pacers and it almost felt like a foregone conclusion with the environment in New York City. That city was ready to explode with the Knicks going and playing for a championship and then it didn't happen. You lose game one at the buzzer and then you lose game two, then all of a sudden we're not going to the NBA Finals. When does management decide that Tom Thibodeau is not the right guy for the job? Was it that game one and then game two? Was it when he went to his bench finally? Or was it when they got eliminated? Or maybe it was earlier. But you can't give your coach a $30 million contract extension just about a year ago and then all of a sudden move on from him. Actually, you can. Actually you can just did. Yes, you did. All righty. We have a poll question. Stat of the day is always brought to you by Panini America, the official trading cards of the program. Seaton doing the honors with the poll question. Let's recap hour one and what do you have in store for hour two? Yeah, we put up there the Knicks are nutsy or gutsy. By firing their head Coach Right now, 83% are saying nutsy Nazi. Okay, they're nutsy. What are we going to go with in our 2? Hour 2. So glad that you asked. We are going with. We just had one here sent over from Paul kind of out of the blue. If you could get one plastic surgery of Your choice. On the house. What would it be, Paul? Would you like to elaborate on what you're thinking of having nipped? And what do you think needs to be done to you, Paul? Me?

[Tom Brokaw]

No.

[Dan Patrick]

I overheard a conversation. The bros, all of us were just.

[Tom Brokaw]

Discussing random people getting plastic surgery.

[Dan Patrick]

Yeah, the Kardashians. And we brought this topic up every.

[Tom Brokaw]

Five or six years, and now we're.

[Dan Patrick]

Getting a little bit older.

[Tom Brokaw]

Would anyone get one?

[Dan Patrick]

Any type of improvement surgery? Well, I'll start with you.

[Tom Brokaw]

My nose. I broke it years ago.

[Dan Patrick]

Okay.

[Tom Brokaw]

If it was on the house, I would get my nose fixed. I broke it, like, in ninth grade or something.

[Dan Patrick]

Okay. The old deviated septum. Yeah, I broke my nose. Gotta get it fixed. No, no, I heard that one a million times. It wasn't deviant septum.

[Tom Brokaw]

I got beat up. Some dude bigger than me punched me in the face.

[Dan Patrick]

All right. Okay. Fix this broken nose from 30 years ago. Yeah, yeah, I would. I would. I had a couple of friends, and they got nose jobs, but then they had deviated septums. Yeah. So I don't know what a deviate septum is. I don't know. But it's a good excuse to get your nose. I knew a few girls in high school that had deviated septums. Yeah. Got their nose taken care of. What about you, Marvin? What would you change?

[Tom Brokaw]

I love the way it just. You know what? It wouldn't be anything like skin. I'd get, like, new teeth. Like veneers.

[Dan Patrick]

Veneers, okay.

[Tom Brokaw]

Yep.

[Dan Patrick]

Like Rex Ryan veneers. Yeah. Don't go too white. Okay? That's what happens.

[Tom Brokaw]

I won't go too quiet.

[Dan Patrick]

Guys, Guys get when they get older, and then they get veneers, and they always have that really, really bright smile.

[Tom Brokaw]

It is like, we have a couple of people that have been guests on our show. You see them, you're like, whoa.

[Dan Patrick]

Whoa, whoa, Todd, what would you change? Maybe some kind of tummy tuck. I know there's diet and there's exercise. There's all kinds of injections out there. And you know where one day, if you're even five pounds overweight, everyone's going to look at you like an alien. Everyone's skinny. Exc. For you, exercise is free. Yeah, that's true. But I'm saying, like, if I can change right now and not wait a year and a half for an injection or something like that, and I just want to, starting tomorrow, to look a lot better than I would. If you're making me pick one, I'd say tighten the waist and hip. I'm not. Yeah, I mean, I'm not forcing you to pick. I'm just having fun here. It's okay. You don't have to do it.

[Tom Brokaw]

I would. Yeah.

[Dan Patrick]

I would like to be smaller in.

[Tom Brokaw]

The waist and hips area.

[Dan Patrick]

Seaton, what would you do? Because we have offered to pay for hair plugs or a hair piece.

[Tom Brokaw]

I'm kind of fine with the hair thing.

[Dan Patrick]

Just. Just wear a hat. 25. I'd be fine with it, too. You know, it's an air of confidence. Seaton, what about you? Maybe if I started losing my hair, I might get that taken care of. I don't know if that counts as plastic surgery. Yeah, but what do you got? Now you're not losing your hair. You got. You got good moss. Yeah, I don't. I don't really have something that I'm like, man, I would really love to change that, because if I. If I did, I would. Okay. You know, I wouldn't. I wouldn't be like. If I really hated my nose or something, I would just get my nose fixed and be like, yeah, yeah, I got my nose done. No big deal. Mine got broken playing basketball. Yeah. But I don't know. Mine got broken at a concert once. I got kicked in the face. Were you in a mosh pit? I was. It's a great story, actually. As a matter of fact, I was. It was the dropkick Murphy's on St. Patrick's Day. They were playing in, actually, my hometown in New Jersey. And I was right up front at the stage, and I just turned to see where my friend was, and a boot went bang. A big. Doc Martin smashed me right in the nose. And the crowd picked me up and, like, floated me to the, like, more towards the front of the stage so security could grab me. And the lead singer, Al Barr, was, like, singing, and he saw me come in. I was covered with blood, and I could see singing this song, and he's just shaking his head like, oh, no, look at this kid. And he pulled me up on stage, put his arm around me. We sang, like, a line of the song together, and then he pushed me back off the stage. It was one of the coolest moments of my life. True story. Yeah, yeah. He pushed off stage, and then you broke your arm. And that's when I broke my arm. And then. Yeah, then I really had to leave. Yes, Todd. So you got drop kicked at the drop kick Murphy. Yeah. All righty. Okay, let me see. Vincent Goodwill of Yahoo Sports covers the NBA. He'll join us the Final start tomorrow night, and the Stanley cup final starts tonight with the rematch of Edmonton and Florida. I do have the odds this morning. The favorite to be the next Knicks head coach is Michael Malone, who coached Denver. Johnny Bryant did we find. Is he a Cavs assistant coach? I don't know much about Johnny Bryant, but he's got the second best odds. And then a distant third is Jay Wright, along with Mike Budenhoser, Rick Brunson, Jalen Brunson's dad. And Monty Williams is also in there. John Calipari down the list. Danny Hurley is there. Jeff Van Gundy is. Is kind of sneaky, in my opinion. I always liked him as a head coach. He's been an assistant coach for a while. Of course, he was broadcasting for a long time. I have to put Rick Patino on there just because he's Rick Patino and he would take the job in a second. Yes, Todd. Johnny Bryant listed as a Cavs associate head coach. Associate head coach. Okay. All right. But Michael Malone, the. Probably the clubhouse leader right now, but there'll be wide, you know, speculation here. Danny Hurley grew up a Knicks fan. He grew up in Jersey City. That doesn't mean that he's right for the job or he should take the job. I think he still should be in college for a little while longer. You know, he flirted with the Lakers and probably would have taken it, but his wife, I think, talked him off the ledge to say, no, let's. Let's go back home. And I think he made the right decision because he even said to me, I gotta mature a little bit. And you go into the nick every game, you're under the microscope every game. You know, at least with Connecticut, you know, you're not followed by, you know, a large group of. Of, you know, of reporters. I mean, this is. And he's a college guy. Like, his dad was a high school guy, his brother, college guy. But just because you grew up a fan of the Knicks doesn't mean that you're the right guy for that job. Now, could he do it? Sure, he's a great coach. But I just think I go back to Jerry west, and every single loss affected him as a player, as a coach, as a gm. Every single loss. He got to the point where he couldn't watch. He couldn't sit down and watch the. And the Lakers were great. I mean, imagine if he was, you know, watching a really bad team. He's got the Lakers and they're competing and winning championships, but every single loss hurt. And it feels like that's the same way with Danny hurley Now at UConn. You're not losing that many games in the NBA. You're going to lose a few. And when you get into the postseason and then all of a sudden these losses and then people want answers. I mean, UConn, you know, didn't play well this past season, but I don't know how many people are going, danny Hurley is the issue. It was, hey, sometimes that transfer portal gives you gold, sometimes you get lemon, sometimes you get lemonade. And you got a hall pass because he's won a couple of national titles. They're not going to give you that hall pass with the Knicks more than a year. Yeah, Seaton. But it could be partially the same problem with Danny Hurley's season at UConn and the Knicks this year. You brought in the wrong dudes. You brought in a couple of the wrong guys and it messed up the whole season. Well, I don't know if everybody was down on the Carl Anthony town. I mean, I didn't, I wouldn't want him, but I don't know if people looked at that and said, hey, that's the, that's the missing piece here. Yeah, I mean, obviously you made that trade because you were missing something. I just don't want a, a seven foot shooting guard. I, I mean, and, and he's very good offensive player. But in today's NBA, then there are a lot of good offensive players. I mean, how many guys average at least 20 a game now? It's not a big deal. Like, you'll go, oh, wow, he averaged 20. Yeah. You got to get guys who do other things for you. You got to get depth. You got to get guys who are versatile, a guy who can be a spark off the bench. You got to get guys who are going to be, do the, the dirty work. You have to have those guys. And I just don't think the Knicks had enough guys this year. Yes, Marvin.

[Tom Brokaw]

Yeah. The NBA playoffs, they expose teams like nobody else. Like, you know what? I didn't know he could play defense. Well, guess what? Now you're playing against a team six times and not just one time. And then you're playing a different team another night. So you're getting exposed. But it's something we already knew about Carl Anthony Towns, that he can't play defense.

[Dan Patrick]

Carlos in LA leads us off this hour. Hi, Carlos. What's on your mind?

[Tom Brokaw]

Good morning, Dan.

[Dan Patrick]

Shrinking five, ten and a biscuit away from two hundy. Hey, I just think that getting a raw deal here Just like a lot of coaches.

[Tom Brokaw]

And across most sports, when the Knicks basically overachieved and he's not getting the.

[Dan Patrick]

Credit for it, they, you know, why is David Edelman not fired? I mean, he shouldn't be, but it's the same situation. Same with Kenny Atkinson. They both fell short. Well, Adelman took over for Michael Malone like he was there on an interim basis, and then they turned it over to him. Thanks for the phone call. Atkinson in Cleveland, man, they had injuries there. He was coach of the year, but they had injuries. I mean, same thing with Boston. Do I think Boston was the best team in the East? If everybody's healthy, yes, but they weren't. Like, the Knicks don't have to apologize because they beat them. Or Cleveland was banged up. You don't have to apologize. Or Dame Lillard wasn't able to play, you don't apologize, you just move on. Yes. Todd, isn't it possible that players can say one thing publicly about how much they love their coach and then in a private moment, either together or talking to the front office separately, issue, you know, bring up issues that they're not going to want the world? Are you saying that, Brunson? I'm saying that it's possible that not everyone is so in love with. With Coach Tibbs as much as maybe they've let on, or at least in recent games from this last series. Don't you? Of course. I mean, I could say, todd, what do you think of me right now? You're fabulous. And then you could go home and be complaining to your wife about it. I can't do anything. And that's happened, hasn't it?

[Tom Brokaw]

I've had some words with my wife.

[Dan Patrick]

Over dinner and a frustrating moment. Nothing mean or terrible, just like frustration. Okay, so that's a safe word. Publicly and privately, you. You were two different people. And I just wonder how significantly did you try to have me replaced? Did not get that far. Okay. All right. But I have dreamed periodically what it'd be like if there was a different host in the chairs. That's. I don't know if that's the same thing or different. And this great, great timing after our 23rd anniversary, 23 years of the day today, baby. Yeah.

[Tom Brokaw]

Let's go.

[Dan Patrick]

Yeah, yeah. Real nice. Yeah, yeah. Great timing. Yesterday was yesterday.

[Tom Brokaw]

Now it's. The anniversary is over.

[Dan Patrick]

Every day, super bowl time. That's true. Paul in Iowa. Hi, Paul. What's on your mind today?

[Tom Brokaw]

Hey, Dan.

[Dan Patrick]

Well, first, best of the midweek.

[Tom Brokaw]

It's a beautiful day here for a.

[Dan Patrick]

Baseball High school double header in the only sport in the union that plays summer ball. But my point to call in about today is that Michael Malone is not going to turn Cat into Joker.

[Tom Brokaw]

And you gave the stat in the.

[Dan Patrick]

First hour that Pat had only one.

[Tom Brokaw]

Block in the entire series. And that brought to my mind the.

[Dan Patrick]

Stat that Wilt Chamberlain never fouled out.

[Tom Brokaw]

Of a game in his career.

[Dan Patrick]

And it really holds you back having your best big man give that defensive effort. Yeah, but I don't. He's not going to change. I don't think he's athletic. I. I think he's talented. There's a difference in that. I think he's got great touch. He can shoot, you know, he can, you know, beat you off the dribble occasionally. But, you know, to play defense, it takes different talents than it does to be a great offensive player.

[Tom Brokaw]

Yes, Marvin, that's what was so disappointing, because Tibbs is probably the orchestrator of the best defense I've ever seen. In the OA Celtics, where everybody bought in and they played great team defense. I was like, why couldn't the Knicks do that? Ray Allen wasn't known as a great defender, neither was Paul Pierce. But those guys brought into the system and played great team defense.

[Dan Patrick]

Well, nobody calls out Jalen Brunson because he can't play defense. Now, I don't know why, but we call out Steph Curry, he can't play defense. Certain players, you call him out, they can't play defense. The Joker, he can't play defense. Luca. Well, Luca can't play defense. Yes. Marvin.

[Tom Brokaw]

Well, I think that came to a head for Steph Curry in the 2016 Finals, especially Game 7, when LeBron was like, hey, yeah, whoever Steph is guarding, yeah, go at him.

[Dan Patrick]

Yes. It turned out to be Kyrie. All right, we'll take a break. Vinnie Goodwill. Vincent Goodwill will join us on loan from Yahoo. Sports. Get his thoughts on why Tom Thibodeau was fired and who should be the next head coach in New York. Also, big shot Bob Robert Horry will join us coming up in an hour from now. Take a break. We're back after this on the Dan Patrick Show. Fox Sports Radio has the best sports talk lineup in the nation. Catch all of our [e-mail] and within the iHeartRadio app. Search FSR to listen live. Hey, it's Steve Covino. And I'm Rich Davis. And together we're Covino and Rich on Fox Sports Radio. You can catch us weekdays from 5 to 7pm Eastern, 2 to 4 Pacific on Fox Sports Radio and of course, the iHeartRadio app. Why should you listen to Covino and Rich? We talk about everything. Life, sports, relationships, what's going on in the world. We have a lot of fun talking about the stories behind the stories in the world of sports and pop culture. Stories that, well, other shows don't seem to have the time to discuss. And the fact that we've been friends for the last 20 years and still work together, I mean, that says something, right? So check us out. We like to get you involved too. Take your phone calls, chop it up, as they say. I'd say the most interactive show on Fox Sports Radio, maybe the most interactive show on planet Earth. Be sure to check out Covino and Rich live on Fox Sports radio and the iHeartradio app from 5 to 7pm Eastern, 2 to 4 Pacific. And if you miss any of the live show, just search Covino and Rich wherever you get your podcast. And of course, on social media, that's Covino and Rich. Hi, Zoe Saldana.

[Tom Brokaw]

Welcome to T mobile.

[Dan Patrick]

Here's your new iPhone 16 Pro on us. Thanks. And here's my old phone to trade in. You don't need to trade in. When you switch to T mobile, we'll give you a new iPhone 16 Pro. Plus we'll help you pay off your old Phone up to 800 bucks and you still get to keep it. There's always a trade in. Not right now. @ T Mobile. I feel like I have to give you something in return for karma. That's okay. I don't really have much in my purse.

[Tom Brokaw]

Oh, let's see.

[Dan Patrick]

Hand sanitizer. It's lavender.

[Tom Brokaw]

I'm good.

[Dan Patrick]

Seriously. Let me check this pocket. Oh, mints. Really, I'm fine. Oh, I have raisins. I'm a mom. Wait, wait one sec. I've got cupcakes in the car. It's our best iPhone offer ever. Switch to T Mobile. Get a new iPhone 16 Pro with.

[Tom Brokaw]

Apple intelligence diligence on us.

[Dan Patrick]

No trade in needed. We'll even pay off your phone up to 800 bucks with 24 monthly bill credits. New line 100 plus a monthly experience beyond Finance Agreement 999.99 and qualifying corded for well qualified plus tax and 10 connection charge payout via virtual prepaid card. Allow 15 days credits and balance due if you pay off early or cancel ct mobile.com More phone calls coming up. 8773 DP show final hour. Big shot Bob Ory will join us. Also John Buccegrass part of the mothership's coverage of the Stanley Cup Final. We bring in Vincenzo Goodwill Jr. III, Yahoo Sports senior NBA writer, host of the Good Word podcast and Yahoo Sports ball don't lie, SiriusXM NBA host as well. He'll be covering the NBA Finals. All right, here's your question. Tom Thibodeau was fired because dot dot.

[Tom Brokaw]

Done the New York Knicks wanted to fire him. I think we try to make things a lot more complicated than they are. If you make the Eastern Conference finals in a year where nobody expected you to get out of the second round regardless of the circumstances and you take out the defending champions in a decisive six game series and that's not enough for you to keep your job, that meant that nothing was going to enable you to keep your job. You can talk about the Knicks roster and how top heavy they are. They are second apron team. And I think that is something Dan, that we don't talk about as much. When you look at the Phoenix Suns and the Milwaukee Bucks, some of those teams that are in those second aprons, those very cumulative investment heavy, you know, parts of the cba, the expectations are championship. And even if the roster doesn't look like a championship, the investment of the money says we expect you to deliver a championship. Now maybe Tom Thibodeau took this team as far as it can go. You need a more innovative offensive mind. You know, there was a lot of chemistry issues, it looked like between Karl Anthony Towns and Jalen Brunson. But I asked you Dan, when was the last time you've seen an NBA champion that had defensive issues at the point of attack with his point guard and at the rim with its center and you won a championship. I don't know if God himself to the work the magic that Tom Thibodeau was asked to work in these playoffs.

[Dan Patrick]

So you're saying then they overachieved with Tom Thibodeau not underachieved in these playoffs?

[Tom Brokaw]

Yes, absolutely. I don't look at. Well, I'll say this to, to the fans. Did you know that Landry Shamit and Delon Wright were actually in the NBA when Tom Thibodeau threw them out there? Now you can say Tiff didn't develop his bench and everything else and depth in today's game wins. When you look at the Oklahoma City Thunder, you look at the Indiana Patriots, the two teams playing in the NBA Finals, you are absolutely correct. But when you build a team that says Mikhail Bridges, we are going to pay five first round picks for you and Then we bring in OG and OBI before that. And then on the EVA training camp, we traded for Carl Anthony Towns. You don't have the space to develop a bench. And I know Tiff should have developed the bench better, but I can't think of a coach being fired because of supplementary players. Now, if you tell me that Jalen Brunson or Carl Towns and Mikhail Bridges went into a meeting individually with Jim Dolan and said, we know what you're thinking. Maybe this isn't the guy to help us move forward. Okay, fine. Because this is a totally different team than the team Tibbs took over all those years ago. It's a much more talented, offensively based team. And maybe that's the reason. But either way, guess what, Dan? We won't find out. Because punks of Tony Field will never come out of his shadow. And I'm talking about Leon Rose. We never see that. Man, I will be bald headed before we ever see Leon Rose in public again. And let me tell y' all, I got a good hairline still.

[Dan Patrick]

See, I think that if you make a move, you fire a coach or hire a coach, you should get in front of the media. You got the media capital of the world, New York City. You made the move. If I'm a fan of, I would like to at least have answers. What was it that we didn't get and what are you bringing in now? He might show up. If they bring in Michael Malone, take a victory lap, and then maybe they don't ask questions about Tom Thibodeau, but you got to get in front of the media here, right?

[Tom Brokaw]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I'm surprised that Nick fans. Well, for one, Nick fans don't like the media. Nobody likes the big bad media. So when the media says, hey, there's a need for public accountability, you know, you can look at that in all different spheres of our world today. Nobody likes the media pointing out that accountability is necessary. But let me say to this point, even if you go hire a Michael Malone, what is the difference between Michael Malone and Tom Thibodeau? Wasn't Michael Malone fired in large part because of his inability to work with the front office to develop young players? Isn't that one of the complaints about Tom Thibodeau? Don't they come from the same New York sort of tree, the. The tree of NBA coaches? I feel like they're kind of similar.

[Dan Patrick]

Do you think they know who they're hiring?

[Tom Brokaw]

No, I don't think they know who they're hiring. I think, and I Don't necessarily know if you have to know who you're hiring. I don't think this is the case of when the Pistons fired rick Carlisle in 2003. They knew they had Larry Brown in their back pocket and they want to win the championship that next season to validate it. I don't think this is that. I think they are walking in this with a relatively open mind. You see the list of guys, even some coaches who are still in the contract, they owe Tom Thibodeau $30 million. I will say this, and I'm gonna go back to firing of tips. When you fire a coach for $30 million left on this deal and you're willing to eat that, it's not just the owner. Because I've heard three hours before, hey, it's time.

[Dan Patrick]

Thibodeau safe.

[Tom Brokaw]

And someone told me, two people told me inside that building, close to that building, they said, not unless Nolan wants to. So I don't just think it was Jim Dolan. I don't think it was just the players in those closed door meetings. I think they had long made this decision and I don't think they had necessarily a list of who they had in front of them, a close down list. I think, I don't think it's going to be Jay riding. I feel bad, Gundy or anything like that. I think it's the New York Knicks being the New York Knicks.

[Dan Patrick]

What about Danny Hurley?

[Tom Brokaw]

Have you seen Danny Hurley on the sideline?

[Dan Patrick]

Yeah, I know, I know. My job is just to ask the question. I didn't want to ask a question and give an answer.

[Tom Brokaw]

So you didn't want to, you didn't want to leave the witnesses?

[Dan Patrick]

No, no. It's something that's unique in this business. Doesn't happen very often where the host just asked the question, doesn't ask, answer and then ask. So what about Danny Hurley?

[Tom Brokaw]

I don't know if Danny Hurley has the sort of temperament. On 82 game season, the scrutiny of the New York media and then the NBA playoffs, you are at the point now where reaching the conference finals is the floor for this. Like dad, there was a girl I once dated and when we first met, she said the bar is the floor. You don't have to do much.

[Dan Patrick]

We have to change a little more.

[Tom Brokaw]

For these New York Knicks. The bar is a lot higher now for them and how they have to move. So you have to be careful about what type of coach you bring in because there's the scrutiny, because it's the Dolen factor, because it's Worldwide wins. Maybe Rick Brunson, you know, Leon Rose. It's all these different factions inside the building. And again, I ask you, what championship coach could coach? Carl Tomlin defending the rim and Jalen Brunson being an outright sort of negative factor on defense at the point of attack title and Jalen Brunson at 6ft 0 commander so much of a team's offense. If you're talking about Knicks players not sure what their role is. He has so much of a disproportionate value on the offense being run. I don't think we talk about that. He's like James Harden. He's like Luka Doncic. And guys around that have a hard time playing. So I don't even look offensively. You have the philosophy or the scheme to build a championship team.

[Dan Patrick]

Talking to Vincent Goodwill, Yahoo Sports senior NBA writer, I did laugh at the end of the year. You know, after they get eliminated, people now start pointing out that Carl Anthony Towns can't play defense. And I'm thinking, did. Did anybody watch him prior to getting to New York? He doesn't play defense. I don't know if he tries. Like, that'd be even sadder if he was. If he was actually trying to play defense. I'd rather just go with and I'll use my energy on the offensive end.

[Tom Brokaw]

Well, you guys played princess 17 days coming in. Prince is one of Prince's favorite musicians. Was Sheila E. With the bongos. That's what Karl Anthony Towns does when he's playing defense. He just whacks you upside the head and then said, I don't know why I did that. And you're right. We saw Carl Towns with Rudy Gobert in Minnesota. They surrounded him with defensive players. Anthony Edwards is a dog on defense. Jay McDaniels is a dog on defense. You have to surround him with players at all different levels that sort of mitigate what he does because he's not going to change. He's 10 years in. He's a wildly efficient offensive player, a wildly talented offensive player. But also Jalen Brunson had a grand total dam of 5 assists. The Karl Anthony Towns in the Eastern Conference finals. Something is not working with the mix with those two. Kyle played his best when Brunson was on the bench. And then when Brunson's on the bench, proud gets a file.

[Dan Patrick]

All right, NBA Finals. Tell me how. Yeah, rumor has it. Do you think the Knicks make the announcement of the next head coach during the NBA Finals? I don't know. David Stern was always Had a problem. Don't take away from the Finals. But I don't know if that, you know, this commissioner cares or the Knicks care, but will they hire their head coach by the end of the NBA Finals?

[Tom Brokaw]

I'm not sure if, you know, Emperor Stern is much more of an authoritarian figure than Adam Silver, who's a little bit more on the diplomatic side, right?

[Dan Patrick]

Yeah.

[Tom Brokaw]

If you're assuming that the NBA Finals go longer than five games, maybe. But the NBA Finals stretch out for like two weeks. I had to pack like £75.

[Dan Patrick]

And.

[Tom Brokaw]

Stuff to carry here. But to answer your question, Dan, seriously, I wouldn't be surprised if the Knicks. I don't think the Knicks care. You don't think. I don't think James Dolan cares. And like we said, Leon Rose doesn't have to be accountable to anything. Nobody publicly or maybe even privately when these things come about. So I think if they find their guy, if their guy is out there and he's not coaching in this series, and I don't think that he is, then you go ahead and you make the announcement, you get it off of. And whatever Adam Silver says, they don't care what the league the. Nick, I'll tell you this. The Knicks don't get a damn what the league office says. The league office doesn't even have as much of a backbone as they should against the New Year franchise.

[Dan Patrick]

Okay, how do the Pacers win the series? Not make it a series? Win the series.

[Tom Brokaw]

Lockshake, Gilgis, Alexander up like that movie with Damon Wayans being a hostage like that. No, I think offense is the key here. Normally we say when you get to NBA violence, it's about defense and stopping the other team. You're not going to stop the Oklahoma City Thunder. You're not going to stop Shay Gildis Alexander from being fouled, at least baiting the refs into believing he's fine. You have to press the pace tyres. Halliburton is by far the most important player in this series. The one mistake that Anthony Evans made with the one development in his game is that you got to see when he gave up the ball, you knew exactly where he was because he was not moving around in that. Enable Oklahoma City's defense to keep an eye on him. Irish Halliburton has a Steve Nash kind of quality where he can be at different points on the floor. When you have to account for him for different players. If he can get this Oklahoma City defense mixed up and twisted up, which we actually have not seen, then maybe you have a better Chance. Remember the different Nuggets, Nicola Jokic and a took this team seven games. They get blown out in the game seven. But the games that they won, they shot the ball extremely well and they played flawless basketball. Down the stretch. We've seen the Indiana Pacers have come back victories against Cleveland and against the New York Knicks, where they divide the odds and came back and played flawless basketball in the last two minutes after hanging around from being down 20 or being down 10, whatever the case may be. And Rick Carlo is a wizard of a coach. So while it doesn't seem likely that is the path Tyrese Halliburton has to be a monster in this series. The patients have to shoot what they shot against the knicks well over 39%, which is a Herculean number. They have to shoot well into the 40s and you have to win the crunch time minutes. And even then, I don't know for sure if they win the series.

[Dan Patrick]

Let me go back to the Knicks for this question. What do you think about Rick Pitino coaching the Knicks?

[Tom Brokaw]

You are jumping back to the way back machine. I mean, is it. Is he bringing Billy Donovan back with him? Is he bringing, you know, Patrick ewing and those 89 knicks where they chopped you up half court? That's a great question. I don't know if Jeff Van Gundy is being answered. I don't know if Rick Patino, who is what he got to be what, 76, 77 years old if he has the stamina to do that. In the words of Rick Pitino in the press conference maybe 25 years ago, Patrick, you ain't walking through that door. Charles Oakley ain't walking through that door. We know Charles Oakley really ain't walking through that door.

[Dan Patrick]

He literally can't walk through that door. They won't let him walk through that door. I was watching that 30 for 30 on the Pacers and the Knicks with Reggie Miller and John Starks, and you saw some of those scores. Like the pacers would get 78 points. It was almost like first team to 90 points would win, win those games. But it was, it was exciting and intense. It wasn't necessarily great basketball, but it was like so physical. And then, I don't know, did the commissioner have this light go off and say, aesthetically, this isn't a, this isn't good basketball? Because Cleveland, I remember Mike Fratello and Pat Riley with the Knicks, they love that physicality with that. But I don't know, was there an edict that said we have to make this more open and let These great athletes be great athletes again.

[Tom Brokaw]

Well, remember this specifically go back to 1995 where Reggie does the eight points and nine and a half seconds and the scores were where they were. The next year the NBA moved the three point line up from 239 to maybe 226 for the next two seasons. And then they moved the line back again to increase scoring. So that was one of those things. And then the Detroit Pistons, the 48 minutes of hell team came and was holding teams under 70 points. And then the next year you got to see the handshaking removed Steve Nashville and two MVPs. The seven seconds or less Phoenix Suns. And that's where you start to see sort of the evolution of the game. Michael Jordan finds a way to cure all ills. Michael Jordan is the face of your league. It don't matter what's going on. That's why 30 points there looks a lot different than 30 points now. So don't give me the numbers from there to say such and such is better right now.

[Dan Patrick]

I say how would Steve Nash be.

[Tom Brokaw]

In today's game if Steve Nash realized that he had the green light to shoot more? And I think as opposed to being an 18 and 13 guy or 16 and 12 guy, if he turned into like a 23, 22 and 11 guy, Steve Nash might have a championship ring or two on his jewelry case. I think he would be, I think the point guards of previous eras. When you talk about the Steve Nash is the Jason kids, of course, you know, the Isaiahs and Magic's, those guys will be so much better in today's game. Not because of shooting, but because the rim isn't clogged. They're getting to the lane and getting layups all day because you have to guard from 30ft out and you don't have one big man at the rim, let alone.

[Dan Patrick]

Yeah, I remember coaches would tell me that they had to yell at Steve Nash to shoot. Imagine you have to tell somebody to shoot because he didn't shoot enough. And they said, you know, now you're hurting us that you're not shooting enough. And he was a, a 90, 50, 40 guy. I think before we even thought what a 905040 guy was.

[Tom Brokaw]

Yeah, it was. He was amazingly efficient. And sometimes when you take more volume of shots, the efficiency goes down. Some people are so married to, you know, whatever the numbers are that they, you know, they don't worry about winning the game, they worry about winning the statistic battle. I don't think Steve Glass was like that. Think Steve Nash was A hard nose competitor. And when you have Sean Marion and Marius Automyer and those guys who needed to be fed the ball, you get more into a passive point of view. But it makes a better offense if you wind up getting it up the court and you're trying to get lamps and you're driving the score as opposed to driving the pass, because sooner or later the defense catches up to that and they play you for the pass as opposed to playing for a threat.

[Dan Patrick]

What would Barkley be like today?

[Tom Brokaw]

Illegal. Because who's guarding him? Dan? Who is guarding a 6 foot 6, lightning quick, athletic 3 4. Remember, Charles played a lot of 3 in his latter days in Philly where he played with Rick Mahorn and Mike Jaminsky and He almost won MVP in 1990 playing a small forward. If you gave Charles Barkley an open floor, you said, charles Barkley, the three point shot is a shot that we have to take. Then you, if you play up on him, he drives to the basket. If he posts up the floor spread, you can't double him. If you tell him, Charles, we need 50 from you tonight. That's what you got. The only hope is that, hey, Charles, you got to play defense. Can you get into a stand and you rotate? That's the only question.

[Dan Patrick]

As Charles has told me many times, as long as Larry Bird's in the league, I won't be the worst defensive guy.

[Tom Brokaw]

Wow. Hey, look, there's a play near and dear to a lot of Detroit's hearts that say Larry Bird was a pretty damn good defensive player. So I'll take a little umbrage on that.

[Dan Patrick]

Well, sometimes, you know, you look at LeBron and I could say five greatest plays of his career. One is going to be the chase down block on Igu Dolla. Yeah, I can talk about Michael Jordan's five greatest plays. The steal against Carl Malone that set up the game winning shot that won, you know, the game in Utah, which we thought was his final game. And then Larry Bird with the Steel against the Pistons. So great players making great plays, but making great plays at both ends of the floor.

[Tom Brokaw]

Well, remember that Utah Jazz game six with Chicago was on a Sunday. And I know it wasn't the reference, but the mailman don't deliver on Sunday.

[Dan Patrick]

Oh, okay. All right, all right.

[Tom Brokaw]

You like that, didn't you?

[Dan Patrick]

No, no, that's something that Fritzi would have said. He would have said that and I would have said, todd, you're better than that.

[Tom Brokaw]

Well, I am. I am a Detroiter. And Karl Malone knocked Isaiah Thomas's head wide open with 40 something stitches because Zeke had scorched John Stockton in the aftermath of the dream team stuff. So I don't really have a whole lot of love for Karl. I say it like that.

[Dan Patrick]

Good to talk to you again. Thank you, Vincent.

[Tom Brokaw]

Always Dan.

[Dan Patrick]

That's Vincent Goodwill. He's covering the NBA finals for Yahoo Sports. Always good. As Marvin says, we get into the crates. That means that we we delve into the archives with the NBA. Absolutely. All right. All right, we'll take a break. Phone calls coming up. Final hour. John Butcher Gross from the mothership covering the Stanley cup final. And big shot Bob Ori will join us as well. We're back after this. Be sure to catch the live edition of the Dan Patrick show, weekdays at 9am Eastern, 6am Pacific on Fox Sports Radio and the iHeartRadio app. Hi, Zoe Saldana.

[Tom Brokaw]

Welcome to T Mobile.

[Dan Patrick]

Here's your new iPhone 16 Pro on us. Thanks. And here's my old phone to trade in. You don't need to trade in. When you switch to T mobile, we'll give you a new iPhone 16 Pro. Plus we'll help you pay off your old Phone up to 800 bucks and you still get to keep it. There's always a trade in. Not right now. @ T Mobile. I feel like I have to give you something in return for karma. That's okay. I don't really have much in my purse. Oh, let's see. Hand sanitizer. It's lavender. I'm good. Seriously. Let me check this pocket. Oh, mints. Really, I'm fine. Oh, I have raisins. I'm a mom. Wait, wait one sec. I've got cupcakes in the car. It's our best iPhone offer ever. Switch to T Mobile. Get a new iPhone 16 Pro with.

[Tom Brokaw]

Apple intelligence on us, no trade in needed.

[Dan Patrick]

We'll even pay off your phone up to 800 bucks with 24 monthly bill credits. New line 100 plus a month on experience beyond Finance Agreement 999.99 and qualify imported for well qualified plus tax and ten dollar connection charge payout via virtual prepaid card. Allow 15 days credits and imbalance due if you pay off earlier. Cancel CT mobile dot com. This just in. Carl Anthony Towns has undergone treatment for a bruised left knee and he has some ligament damage on his left finger, sources told the mothership. Both injuries suffered during the Knicks playoff run. By the way, I have odds for next year to win the championship. Let me see if I can find these things. I need a secretary over here to help Me with all the things I've got here. Where is. Oh no, it's not there. It's not there. Here it is. I got it. NBA title odds next year. The favorite is okc. Then it's two teams tied to for second place. Best odds to win the title next year. Marvin, I'm going to start with you.

[Tom Brokaw]

Celtics.

[Dan Patrick]

No. Paul What? That was my guess. All right. Wow. Todd Minnesota. No. Seaton well, considering the Celtics is the right answer, but wrong. How about the Cavaliers? No, it's the Thunder. And then tied for second. The Pacers and the Knicks. That's unlike so uncreated. The expectation level just went up a notch or two. So it's Nixon Pacers, then it's Minnesota and then it's Cleveland. Did they fire their head coach and their odds improve? I think so, yes. Paul this has to do with Tatum's injury. Yeah, but like I thought this was one of those where he'll be back.

[Tom Brokaw]

Mid season, early season.

[Dan Patrick]

I don't know. Wow. I don't know. Time to play fill in the blank. Do we have music for fill in the blank? I don't know if we do, but even if we don't, oh, we do. The New York Knicks are blank. Todd delusional. Seaton Exact same. Marvin gambling. Paul always reactionary. Tom Thibodeau with $30 million on the way should do blank next. Todd kick back for a while. Seaton Nothing. Marvin vacations. Paul Coach Pepperdine. Coach Pepperdine. Yeah. I'm rooting for the Colorado Rockies. The Colorado Rockies to blank. Todd improve quickly. Seaton be historically bad. Marvin be the worst. Paul win a lot Stanley Cup Final. I'm rooting for Todd the Edmonton Oilers. Seaton the Edmonton Oilers. Marvin Leon Draisaitl of course. Edmonton. Yes Paulie the country of Canada. If I played hockey, my position would be blank. Todd the anti enforcer trying to break up fights and keep the peace. You'd go in there calmly. Come on guys. He didn't mean to smack you in the jaw with his stick. It was an accident. Come on. Seton what about you want to be in the net? All right. Marvin Wherever Gretzky played. Paul Goaltender Robert Ori's career is blank. Todd highlight slash moment driven Satan legendary Marvin Basketball hall of Fame worthy Paul unicornish plastic surgery is blank. Todd risky and vain but could boost one's self esteem. Perhaps Satan perfectly fine option. Marvin for rich folks. Polly a slippery slope. Yeah, because once you do a little bit, it's like tattoos. If you're going to do a little and then you do a little more and then you do a little more and then you never stop. Like potato chips. Yeah, Just eat one. Thank you, Todd. Like I say. All right. Two hours in the books, man. Goes by when you're having fun with your friends. And Todd, that's not necessary. I know. Our 23 year one day anniversary, you took a shot. First hour. I did. Rightfully so. And I came back rightfully so.

[Tom Brokaw]

Very competitive.

[Dan Patrick]

I am extremely competitive. All right, John Butcher Grass, he's coming up. And Robert Ori Oreo, Jungle love. Two hours of the books. One more to go. Let's go. Come on. Let's get together. Come on now. Come on.

[Tom Brokaw]

All right, let's go, let's go.

[Dan Patrick]

We're here. Let's do it. Come on. 1, 2, 3. Cancun.

[Tom Brokaw]

We are New York and we love it.

[Dan Patrick]

This is an I heart podcast.