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- [00:00]
Dan Patrick
You're listening to an iHeart podcast.
- [00:05]
Steve Covino
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- [01:04]
Dan Patrick
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Tyler
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- [02:32]
Tom Pelissero
Built for pickleball you are listening to the Dan Patrick show on Fox Sports Radio.
- [02:38]
Tyler
We make way for Mike Florio, Pro Football Talk Live co host. You can see it Monday through Friday prior to this show on Peacock and the author of Father of Mine, Son of Mine, available in ebook form on Amazon for 99 cents. Mike, your thoughts on Jim Ursay.
- [02:57]
Mike Florio
He was one of a kind Dan and Chris and I were trying to find any other owner over the years that was as overwhelmingly authentic in all ways. He said what he believed. He did so many good things without seeking any type of publicity. Tony Dungy told us a great story earlier today about how when Tony was the coach in his first year in 2002, his dad would come to the home games and Jim said, well, just have him fly on the plane to the road game. So in 2003, every road game Tony's with his dad and his dad passed after that season. Just a little gesture like that, just caring about other people. And he was gregarious. He was different. He was himself. He helped address the stigma as it relates to mental health. He was very adamant about that. I just think that that he was one of a kind. He cared about his team. He cared about his players. You never hear any Colts players complain about the way they were treated by Jim Mercy. So the league is lesser for him. And I'm glad you read that quote. He was the only one who was willing to break ranks and say what needed to be said and what he said in October of 2022 needed to be said and I think it contributed to the groundswell to make change. So Commander's fans should be feeling very, very grateful and they should have a special place in their own hearts for Jim IR because without that I don't know what happens. Maybe it would have happened anyway. But you have to respect that he was willing to to step aside from the club and say what needed to be said.
- [04:31]
Tyler
Seemed to be a groundswell late yesterday that you had. Jason Kelsey, former Eagles center and he goes to the owner's meetings and he is a lobbyist trying to get the Tush push to stay in the NFL. I don't know what kind of impact he had, but it felt like he did have an impact here, Mike, because I think the NFL was doing their damnedest to get rid of this play.
- [04:55]
Mike Florio
And I don't think they're going to stop Dan, 22 to 10, the final vote. That means they only need to get two teams to change their position between now and next March if they try it again. And it's clear that the league is the one that was behind this. We reported yesterday that they basically encouraged the packers to be the ones to make the proposal. They have their own system for proposing rule changes. It's very odd to me. And they did it with two different proposals this year, the Tush push ban and the playoff seating that was submitted by the Lions. Rod Wood, the president of the team, said, they came to us and said, hey, how would you like to partner on this? Well, it sure didn't seem like a partnership. It seemed like it was the Lions. So it's just a strange way of doing business. And the bottom line, I think the commissioner wants both of those things, and he's close. Two teams need to have their arm twisted sufficiently to go from the yes to the no as it relates to the Tush push. So I don't think this is over. And it's unfortunate because, look, they created the atmosphere where this play was allowed to emerge by changing the rules against pushing the runner in 2006 and allowing it. And you can make whatever case you want to make. But I think at the end of the day, it just comes off as we don't like the fact that the Eagles have cracked the code and no one else can crack it. So we're going to get rid of it. And it makes it hard, I think, to sell to the average person because it just feels like kind of a petty and small attack on what the Eagles have perfected.
- [06:32]
Tyler
If this is Tampa Bay, do we care about this? It's the Eagles, and they're winning, and they're winning a Super Bowl. And I just wonder, is it. Is it the play or is it the team with the play?
- [06:48]
Mike Florio
I think that it's a confluence of events that have led to where we now are. It's the combination of the play is very effective. The Eagles are highly successful. Dan, I believe the catalyst for this, and there's evidence to back it up. Mike Pereira, the Fox rules analyst, formerly the VP of officiating, he said in the days after the NFC Championship that that ugly exchange we saw with the Commanders jumping offside repeatedly to the point where the referee, Sean Hockey, had to warn the Commanders, if you do it again, we're going to award a touchdown to the Eagles, something that's never been done in the history of the league. A touchdown awarded for what they call a palpably unfair act. I think someone saw that possibly the guy whose signature is on every football, and said, we got to get rid of this thing. We can't have this. And it's a bunch of different things that can came together. And the problem is they should have nipped this in the bud when it first started. They should have realized, no, no, no, we never meant by changing the rule to allow pushing the runner that you're going to build it into your playbook and you're going to weaponize it and you're going to create this play that doesn't look like a football play. But they waited too long, and now it looks like an attack on the Eagles. And when they try to give justifications, it's almost Keystone cops. Well, it's a safety risk. Okay, show us the data. Well, we don't. We don't have any data. Well, it could be a safety risk. Well, what does that mean? Well, it doesn't look like a football play. And they're moving the goalposts around literally on this thing. And it just. It's a bad look. It's a very bad look for the league. And I think that every team out there, they have two challenges now. One, come up with a way to do it, to come up with a way to stop it.
- [08:27]
Tyler
When we were in Green Bay for the draft and I pressed Matt Leflore, I said, did the league, you know, instruct you? And he said, well, we were nudged. We were nudged. They, you know, they needed to have a team. So, hey, we want you to be the sacrificial lamb. Put your name to it. Just like the Lions with the playoff seating. So, yeah, I mean, you know, coach told us that. That the league nudged them. In so many words.
- [08:56]
Mike Florio
Yeah. And it just. It's odd. And why would you pick the packers as the team to do it? They lost to the Eagles twice last year. It reeks of sour grapes if they do it, pick a team from the afc. The Bills would have been the perfect team to get behind this, literally, because they do it, too, and they do it well. Now, the original proposal didn't affect the way the Bills do it because they always do a delayed push. The first proposal targeted immediate push, and that would have opened Pandora's box of inconsistency and cries of rigging. Can you imagine, Dan, if the Eagles had scored a touchdown at the goal line in a playoff game and a flag comes out because someone in black and white stripes thought it was immediate and maybe it wasn't they already have enough fans saying the fix is in. That would have been a nightmare. So they backed up and they said, well, let's just come up with a general ban. But at the end of the day, at the end of the day, there's still two thirds of the league that wants to get rid of it. It's only because the league requires a 75% super majority to change the rules that it stayed. There is something to be said for the fact that 22 teams want to get rid of it, and I think that that's going to embolden the commissioner to work the back channels, make a deal, maybe make a little bit of a threat. We've seen retribution in the past for teams that oppose things the commissioner wanted. And I know that, that you know, oh, you're not supposed to say those things. But it's true, it's true. We've seen it. I know teams believe they've been targeted for unfavorable scheduling or multiple short week games because they were against flexing of Thursday Night Football. That happened a couple of years ago. So I don't think this is over. And by next year, Dan, don't be surprised if there's safety data to support the position.
- [10:40]
Tyler
Talking to Mike Florio, Pro Football Talk Live co host, also contributor to NBC Football Night in America the Olympic flag football initiative is going strong thanks to the NFL. Help me understand how many NFL players will actually be on the US Olympic roster for flag football.
- [11:03]
Mike Florio
Well, they announced the US men's team for the 2025 competitions earlier this week and there were 12 players and six alternates. But for the Olympics it's a five on five flag football with 10 players on the team. I don't know how many alternates. The proposal that became a final resolution this week allows for one player maximum per NFL team to be available for the Olympics, plus their international pathway program player that they have. But the main thing is the players who are the stars, the names. We know receivers really want to do this for the most part, a lot of them, okay, but then get the gold medal.
- [11:40]
Tyler
But that roster made up of 10 players can consist of how many NFL players.
- [11:46]
Mike Florio
It can be 10, it can be 10, but only one per team.
- [11:51]
Tyler
Okay, so the entire roster can be the NFL. They're they're basically going to say to all the people who do play flag football professionally that we're going to take away your roster spots for the most part.
- [12:04]
Mike Florio
I think it's still early on and all we know is one player per NFL team is eligible. And There will be 10 players on the US men's team. It's going to be for the USA Football Group to determine who's on the team. And there's. I don't know. I don't know how you're going to do it. Are you going to have tryouts? Are you going to have competitions? Are you just going to make a guess as to which NFL players will be able to learn flag football, which is a very different game than tackle football? How much prep time are you going to have? Every rep that you put in to practicing for the Olympic flag football is another opportunity to be injured. And I know people say, oh, it's flag football. Well, Google Robert Edwards if you want to know what can happen to somebody who's not playing tackle football but still playing football. And that's the risk that the NFL has persuaded the teams to take under this guise of, you're only putting one player up for the Olympics. There's so many other ways this can go. You know, there's no agreement between the NFL and the union yet on how this is going to work. The union may have some things to say. I could see a scenario where players can bargain with their teams to sacrifice their right to play in the Olympics if the team wants to pay them a little more money. I mean, if I was an owner and I have a star player who's on the fence, maybe I. I get a clause in his next contract where he waives his right to be part of the Olympic team. And if I'm the player and I can get more money by doing that, I'm all for it. But they haven't. They haven't even begun to negotiate how this is going to look. There's so much more work that needs to be done. This is the beginning. It feels like the end. No, no, no, no, no. There's so much that still needs to be done over the next three years.
- [13:47]
Tyler
The Brock Purdy deal. Whenever there's a deal, big deal, I always go to pro football Talk. I go go to your site because you sort through all of this because agents will put out, look at what I got for my player. And I always go, all right, let me see what Florio has found out. Tell me the Brock Purdy deal and is it good for. Is this team friendly? Is it Brock friendly? How do you kind of gauge this?
- [14:13]
Mike Florio
I think at the end of the day, Dan, it's a fair deal for both sides that acknowledges the reality that Brock Purdy isn't a top five quarterback. And I know that there are 49ers fans who will insist otherwise. He's not a top five quarterback. He's not a top ten quarterback. In my opinion, he's middle of the pack. And there's no shame in being middle of the pack in NFL quarterbacks. That means for the guy who was the last pick in the draft, there's only 15 guys on the planet who can play quarterback in the NFL better than him. And the way this deal's going to go, he'll make 38 million a year for the next three years. The key date is April 1, 2027. That's the deadline for the 49ers to cut him before having 55 million become fully guaranteed in 2028. So based on the next two years, they'll make a decision as to whether to be on the hook for 55 million fully guaranteed in what would be year four of the contract. And they could get out of it after two years. They'd still owe him $27 million, subject to offset. But they can get out of this after two years. If the chariot turns into a pumpkin, so they have some protection. That's always one of the key factors. That's never in the initial reporting. How long are the 49ers truly committed? They're truly committed for two years. They're going to have to make a decision after year three, by April 1, whether or not they want to be on the hook for another 55 million in 2028. But over six years, it's 45 million a year. That's all that matters. New money average is a fiction aimed at making the agents look better. 53 million doesn't mean anything. What matters is It's a new six year contract. He'll make 41 million this year instead of 5 million, and it's a six year, $45 million deal.
- [15:51]
Tyler
Got better understanding on Aaron Rodgers? Future or the Bengals? Trey Hendrickson?
- [15:58]
Mike Florio
Neither. Neither. And look, the reality with Hendrickson is he's got some options, he's got some leverage, he's got some cards to play. But if he holds, out of all the teams in the NFL. Dan, you know this. The Bengals don't care. They told Carson Palmer, you want to sit home on the couch watching bowling and eating pork rinds, go for it. We don't care. We don't have to pay you. We'll pocket the money. 888,000 a game. Trey Hendrickson gives up Mike Brown's like, fine, put it with the rest. So they're not going to blink they're not going to bow here. The reality is, how much pressure is Joe Burrow going to put on the Bengals to do this? He started the effort around the Super Bowl. He named four guys Jamar, Chase T. Higgins, Mike Gasecki and Trey Hendrickson. And I think the Bengals stepped up to the plate with three of them under pressure from Joe Burrow. Will they do what they need to do to make Trey Hendrickson happy? That remains to be seen. But there isn't a whole lot he can do to force this, because if he stays home, they'll say, fine, we'll keep your money. And with Rodgers, Ian o' Connor, who wrote the biography last year he was on with one of the Pittsburgh radio stations, 93. 7 the Fan, last week. And he thinks it'll happen during OTAs. I think it makes sense for it to happen soon. And he's there next week for OTAs. But remember this. When Brett Favre showed up with the Vikings in 2000, I remember there was a schism in the Minnesota locker room between the guys who wanted Brett Favre and the guys who wanted Travers Jackson. You know how long it took for the schism to be resolved? One practice, the moment Aaron Rodgers shows up and starts throwing passes that make a sound they've never heard before, when it whizzes by their head, they'll say, okay, we know why you waited until whenever it was that Aaron Rodgers decided to show up.
- [17:38]
Tyler
Your takeaway from the Brett Favre documentary.
- [17:42]
Mike Florio
Well, look, and I think there's two different types of audience. One, the people who don't follow the nonstop drip, drip, drip of NFL news. Like, for me, there was nothing new. I was looking for something new. There's nothing new there. It's a nice summary of everything that's happened. The but there was nothing that made me say, well, I have to go write a story for PFT with this quote, this development, this thing. It's all stuff we already knew, but it's all in one place. And I don't know, Dan, were you surprised by anything that was in it? I wasn't. I knew it all. And yeah, that's the stuff Brett Favre did or allegedly did. Got to be careful. Don't want to get sued. The stuff we know he did and this stuff he allegedly did.
- [18:23]
Tyler
Good to talk to you, Mike. Thanks for joining us.
- [18:26]
Tom Pelissero
Mike Florio, Fox Sports Radio has the best sports talk lineup in the nation. Catch all of our shows@foxsportsradio.com and within the iHeartRadio app. Search FSR to listen live.
- [18:38]
Chris Webber
Hey, it's Steve Covino and I'm Rich Davis and together we're Covino and Rich on Fox Sports Radio. You can catch us weekdays from 5 to 7pm Eastern, 2 to 4 Pacific on Fox Sports Radio and of course the iHeartRadio app. Why should you listen to Covino and Rich? We talk about everything. Life, sports, relationships, what's going on in the world. We have a lot of fun talking about the stories behind the stories in the world of sports and pop culture. Stories that, well, other shows don't seem to have the time to discuss. And the fact that we've been friends for the last 20 years and still work together, I mean, that says something, right? So check us out. We like to get you involved too. Take your phone calls, chop it up, as they say. I'd say the most interactive show on Fox Sports Radio, maybe the most interactive show on planet Earth. Be sure to check out Covino and Rich live on Fox Sports radio and the iHeartradio app from 5 to 7pm Eastern, Eastern, 2 to 4 Pacific. And if you miss any of the live show, just search Kobe, no Rich, wherever you get your podcast and of course on social media, that's Covino and Rich.
- [19:35]
Steve Covino
Are you still quoting 30 year old movies? Have you said cool beans in the past 90 days? Do you think Discover isn't widely accepted? If this sounds like you, you're stuck in the past. Discover is accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide and every time you make a purchase with your card, you automatically earn cash back. Welcome to the now it pays to Discover. Learn more@discover.com credit card based on the February 2024 Nielsen report.
- [20:04]
Dan Patrick
While others are sitting in lecture halls, you're already building your future at Ferris State University. Hands on training starts from day one. With real world skills that lead straight to careers in construction, engineering, automotive tech and more. You're not just learning, you're earning, building a life you can be proud of. And with in state tuition for out of state students, success is within reach. Ferris State University Unleash your potential. Register now at Ferris Edu. That's Ferris Edu.
- [20:34]
Rich Davis
T Mobile's stats are as impressive as your favorite athlete's highlight reel because T Mobile helps keep you connected from the heart of Portland to right where you are on America's largest 5G network switch now. Keep your phone and T Mobile will pay it off up to $800 per line via prepaid cart. Visit your local T Mobile location or learn more@t mobile.com keepandswitch up to 4 lines of your virtual prepaid card. Allow 15 days qualifying unlock device, credit service report in 90 plus days device ineligible carrier and timely redemption required. Card has no cash access and expires in six months.
- [21:04]
Dan Flores
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- [22:05]
Kevin Harlan
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- [22:32]
Tyler
Terms subject to change Tom Pelissero, NFL Network Insider you didn't know you were going to get that, did you Tom?
- [22:41]
Tom Pelissero
You know, the, the, the verbal cadence, the speed, the number of words per second is dead on. Kevin Harlan I grew up watching Kevin Harlan calling Timberwolves games when they were absolutely awful from about 1989 to the mid-90s. And they'd be down 40 points and Kevin McHale would be sitting next to Kevin eating popcorn on the air. The only thing I would say with Kevin, you're a little in the nose, Fritzi. I think you got to get it down. It's a little more down here. When you do it, you got to be a little deeper in the throat that's the only critique I. But again, beautiful. Nine out of ten.
- [23:15]
Kevin Harlan
Noted. Thank you.
- [23:16]
Tyler
All right. Okay. What happened yesterday, late in the morning and Jason Kelsey's role in keeping the tush push in NFL vernacular.
- [23:29]
Tom Pelissero
It's hard to say how many people were actually swayed by anything that happened in the room. Dan. I would tell you, the people I talked to before the meeting who told me we're going to vote to get rid of the twitch push, they voted against. The people who told me we're going to vote against this. This ban, they voted against the ban. But there was certainly, you know, a compelling case. And, you know, as I said, because I'm sitting there right outside the room, and I see Jeffrey Lurie, a couple other Eagles officials, and Jason walking, and I said to J. Go. Jeffrey. Bringing in the big guns. He goes, absolutely. This was a very, you know, orchestrated plan for them to counter some of the narratives that have been going around about, you know, did Jason Kelsey actually like running this play? Was it actually a reason that he decided to, you know, stop playing in the NFL? I'll tell you this. You know, even though this did not pass, 22 out of 32 teams voted to ban it. 22. That's. That's. Over two thirds of the teams in the league voted to eliminate not just the twitch push, but all push plays. In the end, it's 24. It's a high bar. It's supposed to be a high bar. You know, they weren't able to pass it. You know, what role would Kelsey and Lurie actually play? I know what the narratives are. I know what the quotes are that are out there. I got the sense this was always going to be close, but there was a sense going into the meeting that they thought the people who were proponents thought they were going to have the votes. Ultimately, they came up too short.
- [24:54]
Tyler
Yeah. Because I don't think the commissioner tables this and then brings it back without having the. The number of votes needed to get rid of it, that he clearly wants to get rid of it. If he has to nudge the packers to say, put your name to this, that you want it out. And, you know, if you're the packers, you come off as, you know, poor losers. Hey, you know, we. We get beat by them now. We don't want it in the league. And the point that I brought up earlier, if this is Carolina, does anybody care if Carolina can run this successfully? I mean, let's be honest. Does anybody object to them doing this if they were extremely successful?
- [25:35]
Tom Pelissero
If they're a 5 and 12 team. It's not the national phenomenon. I'm not being asked to go on the NBC Nightly News with Lester Holt to talk about the Tush push if it's not a run by a team that just won the Super Bowl. It's just, it's a different, It's a different conversation. But I would say this, Dan, think about the number of health and safety related rules that have passed over, let's call it the last two decades. If you watch a tape, you know, forget the 70s and 80s, you watch a game from the 90s, the early 2000s, it's completely different because of, you know, the hits on defenseless receivers that you're not allowed to do now, where you're allowed to hit the quarterback. All the things that went into taking the crown of the helmet out of the game, you know, trying to emphasize the skill, spearing rules, they're all health and safety related changes. This is, and I've covered the league over 20 years, this is the first time that I can remember that you had the competition committee strongly in favor of a health and safety related ban on a play, that you had the medical committees that you had, the medical people with the NFL all saying this needs to be outlawed and it did not pass. But this was also the first time that a rule was brought forth with health and safety related reasons to do it where there was no injury data. So that's the complicated part here is usually these health and safety rules, it's like a rubber stamp because it's, hey, we want to make the game safer, we want to avoid lawsuits, we want to avoid liability, all those things, but usually have injury data to back it up. In this case, what you're arguing is, hey, no injuries have occurred. It's been run what, 120 times last year? So it's been run maybe 300 times in NFL history. But the biomechanics, the posture, the amount of mass and force, this could lead to something dangerous that ultimately was not a compelling enough reason to get the two extra votes. Now we'll see. The NFL is a big data gathering operation. You know, whether it's from an injury perspective, from a, how many times is this run a success rate? All those things are going to go into, you know, whether or not this potentially comes up again in 2026.
- [27:31]
Tyler
Yeah, it will. But I also, I don't have a problem if the league says we don't have health data to get rid of this play. But unlike the kickoff, we want to be proactive, not reactive to this we want to get out in front of this. It's just like, you know, their player safety. I'm, I'm all for that. But I also think, just like with an onside kick, there's inherent danger when you play football, you sign up for this. And that's what I don't understand. With the onside kick, I get okay, but it's football now. You're kind of trying to bring it back. Now we want to have a few more kickoffs coming back. Like, it's either one or it's either this or nothing. Like, I don't think you can kind of go, you know, it. Not, not. Not many guys got hurt on kickoffs last year that we thought, hey, how about we do this or the onside kick? How about you kick from the 34, not the 35? Like, what are we doing?
- [28:29]
Tom Pelissero
Well, with the broader. The onside kick is a function of the kickoff rule because of the alignment on the dynamic kickoff run, an onsite kick from that formation. So, yes, you eliminate all the element of surprise, which is, that's the baseline issue here. This is, you know, realistically, there were 50 onsite kicks last year. Three got recovered. That's 6%. The historic rates are like 12%. So you're not thinking this is suddenly going to lead to, you know, 20 more recoveries. You're just hoping you get a couple more. You see what happens here. But without the element of surprise, it makes things really, really difficult. There's not a clear answer. You know, to go back to the broader kickoff issue that was about, you're trying to reduce the space and speed. It's physics is what it is. You're going, okay. Last year they wanted the return rate to be really low to make sure that the injury rate went down. Now, okay, it seems like this is a positive change. Now let's change the touchback rule. Let's try to generate more returns and see if that continues to go forward. The NFL generally does these things very incrementally to make sure that it's not like the pass interference review disaster back in 2019, where they passed the rule before they wrote it and then nobody could enforce it and finally it's went out. Forget it. We're just not going to overturn anything. That's what they want to avoid. On site kick, though, there's just, there's not a clear answer here unless you really seriously consider the thing that Philadelphia has been proposing for the last probably five, six years, which is a fourth and whatever, fourth and 20. Let's call it alternative where it's one play, it's make it take it. That would be a fundamental change to the game to some people who think it's gimmicky. But ultimately, Dan, that that might be somewhere along the line where we end up.
- [30:09]
Tyler
Tom Pedicero, NFL Network Insider. You can see him on the Insiders on NFL Network. That's weeknights at 7 Eastern. Everybody's all excited about the Olympics. Everybody's ready to go. They want their medals. I'm just curious the owner's reaction. Now. They had to pass this, but they also have to allow their players to be able to play or try out. I'm guessing how does this work if I'm an owner and Patrick Mahomes goes, man, I'd love to have a gold medal. Well, I'd love to have another Super Bowl, Patrick, so I don't want to risk you getting hurt. How does this work and not hurt feelings?
- [30:50]
Tom Pelissero
Well, the I would say this, there's enthusiasm at every level of this from the stakeholders from the league office who see this as part of their global expansion plans to the teams that like the idea of again making more money. Because if you can continue to increase international revenue, that's only going to help the value of your franchises. The players, you know, for the most part, not everybody. There are some guys who have said, I I'm not going to get involved with that. I don't make money to play flag football. But a lot of players are going to want to do it here. But I would say the NFLPA also has expressed, you know, enthusiasm for this, but they still got to work out and some of these rules, there's questions about injury protections and insur and you know, even though this is going to happen in the early portion of the 2028 games and so it's going to end before training camps. There's still going to be some players who go, wait, I'm using my whole off time, my whole spring and summer to get ready for this. And then I'm just going to plop down two days later and go into training camp. So there's some questions there. You know, unions defend wages, benefits, working conditions and all those things are subject to further evaluation here. So those are going to be ongoing conversations. They're going to actually have to come to an agreement. There's like a round, okay, we like this idea. We all want to make more money. Let's work on this together. But the details still have to be worked out in terms of, you know, how the process works over the next few years. And I asked this question to a bunch of the people who've been involved in these conversations. You know, just like every other Olympic sport, there's like different qualifying things and there are national teams and you know, you have this vision of, okay, the, you know, you might have, let's say, you know, forget Team USA for a second because that's the team that's going to have the most options. But let's say you're Korea and you've got, hey, we can get Kyler Murray, we get Kyle Hamilton, we're not going to have him until 2028. Well, you're going to have to qualify before that. And if the current Korean national team isn't any good, those guys are going to get left out. So that stuff, from my understanding, really starts next year and then heats up in 2027. So this is going to be kind of an ongoing evolution in terms of what does this look like. Every national body is going to approach this differently. I would certainly anticipate. USA Football fully embraces this and wants all the NFL players. Even though you've got, you know, the current Team USA quarterback saying, you know, I think I'm better than Patrick Mahomes. And I said that. So I had Justin Jefferson come on the Insiders the other night and I brought that up. I'm like, you got this guy. I'm like, there any doubt in your mind that NFL players could be better than the current flag players? He's like, well man, they, you know, they know the game, but you know, Patrick Mahomes like, good luck, dude. Like, there's no way, there's no way you're getting that spot from him.
- [33:26]
Tyler
Good to talk to you, Tom. Thanks for joining us as always.
- [33:28]
Tom Pelissero
Thanks for having me, Dan.
- [33:29]
Tyler
That's Tom Pelissero.
- [33:31]
Tom Pelissero
Be sure to catch the live edition of the Dan Patrick show, weekdays at 9:00am Eastern, 6:00am Pacific on Fox Sports Radio. In the iHeartRadio app, are you still.
- [33:41]
Steve Covino
Quoting 30 year old movies? Have you said cool beans in the past 90 days? Do you think Discover isn't widely accepted? If this sounds like you, you're stuck in the past. Discover is accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide. And every time you make a purchase with your card, you automatically earn cash back. Welcome to the Now It Pays to Discover. Learn more at discover.com credit card based on the February 2024 Nielsen report.
- [34:09]
Dan Patrick
While others are sitting in lecture halls, you're already building your future at Ferris State University. Hands on training starts from day one. With real world skills that lead straight to careers in construction, engineering, automotive tech and more. You're not just learning, you're earning, building a life you can be proud of and with in state tuition for out of state students, success is within reach. Ferris State University Unleash your potential. Register now at Ferris. Edu that's Ferris Edu T Mobile's stats.
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Rich Davis
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Tom Pelissero
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Rodney Rogers
The American west with Dan Flores is the latest show from the Meat Eater Podcast Network. Hosted by me writer and historian Dan Flores and brought to you by Velvet Buck, this podcast looks at a West available nowhere else. Each episode I'll be diving into some of the lesser known histories of the West. I'll then be joined in conversation by guests such as Western historian Dr. Randall Williams and best selling author and meat eater founder Stephen Rinella.
- [36:11]
Chris Webber
I'll correct my kids now and then.
- [36:12]
Kevin Harlan
Where they they'll say when cave people.
- [36:14]
Chris Webber
Were here and I'll say it seems like the Ice Age people that were here didn't have a real affinity for caves.
- [36:20]
Rodney Rogers
So join me starting Tuesday, May 6th where we'll delve into stories of the west and come to understand how it helps inform the ways in which we experience the region today.
- [36:32]
Mike Florio
Listen to the American west with Dan Flores on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts.
- [36:37]
Tom Pelissero
Or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [36:40]
Tyler
Chris Weber, hall of Famer, joining us on the program. C. Webb, how does that happen? You're up 14 at home, three minutes to go.
- [36:50]
Kevin Harlan
It happens when you have a really special team. You know, first of all, Halliburton, when you look what he did. Nice. Smith, all the other guys. But please, let's not forget Coach Carlisle. You know, he. He's a. He's. He's a great coach, and he's coached guys like J. Kid. He's coached against the greatest players. He's played Celtics, by the way, so he knows a little bit about offense. And to me, it was just wearing you down. Some teams, we give a lot of credit for wearing you down with their defense. And I played on teams whether Sacramento and others where we. We wore you down with our offense as well. And that means just keeping your foot on the pedal, never looking up and trusting your players. And, you know, those last few minutes, I mean, wow, these are some of the most exciting games I've seen in a long time. So it's great to be a fan and watch all the excellence that's going on.
- [37:40]
Tyler
Why is it different playing in the Garden than any other place?
- [37:44]
Kevin Harlan
Well, I would say the Garden in old la, old L. A, because you had stars like Jack and others that were there and you would see. But I think it's because it's not just about new stars. I think it's about the fact that because those arenas are so old, you know, Kareem played there or, you know, you know, that, I don't know, Willie Allen or someone else was at those games. And so as a player, you come in saying, you know, I better give my best performance because this is where the best performers are. How many times do you. Do you get to perform in front of your heroes? And so for me, New York was always special. And, you know, if I could send out a PDA alert because New Yorkers are so cocky. I have a. I have a very close friend. His name is Haas. I won't give his full government name, but anyone in New York, please look out for Haas and just make sure you watch over him because he was hitting me with bing bong and all this other stuff, and I haven't heard from him in about 16 hours. So please look out for my man Hines. But. But it's so much fun. And part of that, too, is sending those crowds home quiet. It's no better feeling in any arena. But, you know, LA and New York, when you do it, you know, you feel a little extra special.
- [38:54]
Tyler
Okay, but did you ever have conversations with celebrities? Did you ever flirt with a celebrity in LA when you were playing?
- [39:02]
Kevin Harlan
Never flirted, but if I saw, you know, someone that I wanted to flirt with, oh, I raised my game, you know, you, you, you, you want to play well and send them home or.
- [39:10]
Tyler
Something, you know, so is their court side, huh? You might, might want the ball a little more.
- [39:17]
Kevin Harlan
Oh, yeah. And, you know, you might, you know, shoot your shot or dunk on someone a little harder and mistakenly look at it, you know, you know, it's not the wink, but, oh, I'm sorry, did I just do that? You know, that type of thing. I do remember one of the best compliments I ever got was, was Jack before the game in the playoffs in la, and you would change right by him. And I'm really focused and nervous and getting ready to go. And he says, the calm before the storm. You were the calm before the storm. And we blew LA out that game. And I remember thinking, he never should have given me that compliment because I had to live up to that in front of him.
- [39:55]
Tyler
What's it like, though, when everybody knows you're getting the ball like you, and the feeling of, I don't. Some guys, you know, they run away from the ball, others run to the ball.
- [40:07]
Kevin Harlan
Yeah, I think that it's all about knowing your game is really simple. Knowing that you have a move and a counter move with it. Starting like that, it's really easy. And then if you have great players around, it's easier to trust. So I can only speak from my experience, but knowing that I was going to get double teamed late in the game, I would be talking to Pejor, Vladi and them during the whole game. Like, you see, they're going to come double me at this point later. I got you. And so it gives you freedom. The easiest person to check on the court is a selfish person. And so you have to make sure through your abilities that you keep everyone on their toes. Just look at a guy like Jokic. You know, he wants the ball late in the game, but he may not shoot seven possessions in a row, but they're going to score seven possessions in a row. So for me, the most important thing is, yeah, can you score? But there are a lot of guys we waited to the end to double because they didn't have the acumen in the past or didn't even know where other teammates were. And so to me, it's, it's, how can you make a Score happen if you're a great player late in the game. And LeBron was accused a lot for that. But he's one of the best examples, Magic as well, of being able to take a moment, find it, know that I can score. But it may be easier to loosen you up by finding a wide open junior or someone in the corner or Booby Gibson. That hurt us in Detroit to. To. To kill you a little bit better instead of being selfish.
- [41:26]
Tyler
Yeah, but we give Magic a hall pass and say, that's a positive. LeBron, people view that as a negative, that he didn't want to take the big shot in those situations. With Magic, it was like, look at how unselfish he is.
- [41:39]
Kevin Harlan
Yeah, no, you're right, Dan, but. So let's separate. The first time he played against San Antonio, let's separate. You know, when he was learning on that learning curve, but he always played the right way. And so there was one game, I think, in the Pistons, Game seven, I think we're playing against them, and we're, you know, trying to go to the championship, and this guy scores 24 in a row, 25 in a row. But Booby Gibson had a great game because he was finding this guy in the corner. And then you wonder, how does a guy like me, Smith. How does a guy like Booby Gibson come out of nowhere? How does a guy like Fisher, Derek Fisher, come out of nowhere and do these things? Well, it's because Shaq trusted at one point. It's because LeBron trusted. So, yeah, that's that line in the sand with LeBron. But when he was able and found his voice, found his way on the court, he still played the right way. And for me, he doesn't get enough credit for that.
- [42:28]
Tyler
Did LeBron have 43 on you guys in that game? Seven.
- [42:33]
Kevin Harlan
I know he had 24, 25 straight.
- [42:36]
Tyler
And, oh, he had 40. Had 48.
- [42:39]
Kevin Harlan
Thanks. I'm gonna call Rasheed Wallace and remind him of that, because that's one of Rasheed's biggest failures, or I won't even say that that's something that hurt Rasheed the most as a defensive player, that it was one guy on the floor that. That we couldn't stop. And so, yeah, whatever he did, he hurt our feelings and kept us from a championship.
- [42:56]
Tyler
Hurt your feelings? He's Chris Weber, hall of Famer. I mentioned this earlier. We can't underestimate the impact of the dream team in 1992 on the world, because here we are, what, 33 years later, and look at the best players in the game, the players are from outside. The top five players you can make an argument are not American born. Shay Gil just getting the mvp. You got Luca, you got Giannis, I mean, we can go down the list there. But that impact of we laughed at the rest of the world, we're crushing Barclays, making fun of people, we're focused on us, whereas the world focused on them. And how, how do we get better as a basketball country? And look at what that impact did with the NBA.
- [43:45]
Kevin Harlan
So you're right, that impact was, was great. I remember just hearing about players like Sabonis or other players and really not knowing until I got to play with great players like Sharonis Marceloness or, or Pedro Stojakovic or Potapenko or others. I, I think we did a, a great job in showing our secrets and, and showing them, you know, that, that you can be like Jordan or at least you could dream like this. And if you don't reach Jordan's ability, you can still be pretty good if you watch him. And so I, I think that we did a great job in exposing the game, but I also think the way that the system was set up, you know, Luca was professional at what, 15?
- [44:18]
Tyler
Yeah.
- [44:18]
Kevin Harlan
So if he's professional at 15, comes to the NBA with five years experience of playing against grown men, he's going to have a, a better trajectory. And so I think that the systems that we have overseas, allowing guys to play professionally and younger, help them advance a lot quicker. But our last seven MVPs, there were all foreigners, so to speak, or people from other places. And truthfully, shy could have won last year. And truthfully, the year indeed won. You know, Jokic could have won that. So you could have a four time. I really look at Yokos is missing the mvp. He should have one more mvp. So I love the way that the game is spread, but it comes back to skill, skill, skill, and hopefully it'll set a fire under a lot of young kids to, you know, be the best that they could be. But I think the game is gonna always elevate no matter who's the best, because guys around the world watch the best and we become better after that.
- [45:08]
Tyler
But you also look and I, I'm sure you remember this, but when Barkley won mvp, when Carl Malone won mvp, everybody knew that Michael Jordan was the best player in the game. Right? Shea Gilgis is getting the mvp, but I think everybody recognizes Joker is still the best player in the game. It just, and I, yeah, I mean SGA and OKC had the best year and he's the best player. But I don't know how players reacted when, you know, Barkley played well for Phoenix, Carl played well for Utah. I, you know, Michael, I don't think cared about the regular season as much as he's going to win a championship.
- [45:48]
Kevin Harlan
Well, I also think there's fatigue, you know, there's Jokic fatigue.
- [45:51]
Tyler
Yeah, yeah.
- [45:52]
Kevin Harlan
You know, you really think about it, you can't have a co. Mvp. But how did he not win an mvp? But then again, with Shay, I think, I think too, I think it's the culture of how we play. If we want to really be honest, I think that, you know, I love playing with players that make everyone better. And so I think the days of just scoring 40 and being that guy, like, that's. That that's not necessarily winning basketball to be doubling the post and not get anyone else involved. That's why we love Jokic and maybe not other centers. And so I think the culture, at least from watching doctors, at least from watching Shy, is that Shay Gildrich is that they're always going to try to make the right play, even if it's being selfish four or five times in a row. But watching them facilitate, get other guys involved is so special. That's why Halliburton is special, though. And I've always known that even he was drafted in Sacramento because he gets everyone involved. And I think that that has become the culture of the European player. And as Americans, being the best scorer, you know, it's a little more that you can add to that. And I think that that's where the line in the sand is going to come. Like, how. How much better do you make your team? And Shy's team would not be that good. OKC wouldn't have got the first round without him, and Denver may not have made the playoffs without Jokic. And that's what I like the distinction in the MVP argument is not that, oh, look at the stats. If we really take them away from their teams without them even scoring, they make their teams better. And I think that that shows what the most valuable player is. Not the most valuable score, but the most valuable teammate.
- [47:29]
Tyler
But you were on the College select team that beat the Dream Team, right?
- [47:33]
Kevin Harlan
Oh, yeah, we beat him. Coach K, how you doing?
- [47:36]
Tyler
Like, it was real, though. That was a real game, right?
- [47:41]
Kevin Harlan
Yeah, I mean, it was. It was a practice, Dan. Like, you know, I'm sure that you've been around your heroes and commentating or journalism and things when you first got in the game. And if you really first Remember those things? Just, you know, there was no social media. Dominique Wilkins, you know, I had him on the wall with Brooks and the Tonics, the different shoes. I had Magic every. I knew everything about them that you could at the time. I watched all the Bloopers tapes. Remember, that's all we could get was the Bloopers tapes with the coach from Utah at the time. So Access was. Was not here.
- [48:14]
Tyler
Frank Layden, Frank Layton.
- [48:16]
Kevin Harlan
And I remember. I remember being in a huddle and I with. Literally with tears in our eyes because we're 18, 20 at this time. I just come from the championship. We were losing to Duke, and I'm playing with Bobby Hurley and Grant Hill and all my friends, and we're in the huddle like this is a dream come true. None of us were thinking about going to the league. You know what I mean? This is the. If I go back to the purest of moments in sporting life, it had to be then, you know, because it was okay. I couldn't believe how quick Bobby Hurley was and that it transcended onto the court against Magic where he's taken Magic and Stockton. Like, we didn't believe in ourselves like this. These were just our heroes. Barkley was my favorite player. So to go against Barkley and Patrick, you in a dunk on them, that was like the biggest thing in the call home. And so we really played the hardest that we could. We caught them sleeping. And Chuck Daly, being from Detroit, had a great relationship with them. And I remember him patting us on the back, like, good job. And, you know, as a good coach, you want to use different things to incentivize your team. And we beat them. And for them to say last point. It's so infuriating to hear them say, well, Jordan sat on the bench. Jordan could have sat on the bench the whole scrimmage. And you're saying we still beat the all Star team. Well, we'll take that. And so I think any excuse for them is not giving the credit of how great they were. And any great team knows you can get caught slipping. One day we caught them slipping, and the next day, I do not remember us scoring one basket. That's how much they wanted to pay us back. So if they didn't beat us, then they wouldn't have been that mad that next day because they kicked our ass.
- [49:52]
Tyler
Who was it? Was it Rodney Rogers?
- [49:56]
Kevin Harlan
Rodney Rogers. He. I don't know why he kept talking. He was just always talking. His country guy is so strong. And I remember Larry Bird because. Because he was my Hero. And I just remember watching him, and we didn't realize he was that tall. His back was hurting. You know, he kind of walked, ran with a little bit of a gate. But his movements, because he was such a great passer, you couldn't come up on him because his first step was so quick. And Rodney Rogers, we're rotating and he goes to the corner and he pump fakes. And as he pump fakes, he's like, welcome to the Parachute Club. And we're like, you're talking during the shot, and I'm talking about. It just fell through. It looked like the nets didn't even move. You know, one of those things. But we would have got fined because we're kind of giving each other five. Like, did you see what Larry just did to us?
- [50:41]
Tyler
Oh, you guys are celebrating him torching Rodney Rodgers.
- [50:45]
Kevin Harlan
Yeah, it's bad. But Larry bur made a lot of people do that. Look, go look on YouTube against the Hawks game when he's calling shots with his left hand. That whole bench should have got fined.
- [50:54]
Tyler
Because they did get fined.
- [50:57]
Kevin Harlan
Oh, good, good. Because that's bad, President. I mean, I would have gone to locker room and tried to fight my teammates like it's nothing I could do. And you guys are cheering them.
- [51:04]
Tyler
Well, you never. You never did that when you played against Jordan or you're on the bench and Jordan did something and you, like, turned your. Your guys and said, oh, my God, give me five.
- [51:13]
Kevin Harlan
I put. I put my shirt over or something like that. Act like it. Let them. One time. Jordan, we were in the playoffs. Jordan parks his Ferrari inside the building, which you shouldn't be able to do. He's smoking a cigar before the game, which, I mean, you can do whatever you want. And we're the Lowly Bullets, and Juwan and I are getting off the bus. And Juwan's very close with him, and he's like, Juwan Webb, who's guarding me tonight. And Calbert Chaney was behind us, and we both looked and did like that. And that was the one time I cringe about how I left a teammate hanging. Cause Jordan had 55 on us that night and beat it.
- [51:52]
Tyler
Poor Calvert Chaney.
- [51:54]
Kevin Harlan
Yeah, poor. He's the man, though. But yeah, hey, dealing with Jordan and Kobe, you're going to have to take. You have to take some Ls, man.
- [52:01]
Tyler
Yeah, but there was that same, like, tenseness that like. Or they probably were like, okay, who's. Who's going to get. Take a beating, you know? Tell me. And then you guys are like, Pointing at Calvert, Cheney there.
- [52:14]
Kevin Harlan
That's exactly what it. We left him hanging down as a teammate and a captain. That's the one thing I that like, because we both were like, hey, this guy. Leave us alone.
- [52:25]
Tyler
But Kobe didn't do that.
- [52:27]
Kevin Harlan
No, Kobe didn't do that. But I had a teammate and now a coach in Doug Christie that very honestly, he's the man. Because Kobe would score shot after shot. Doug would play it correctly, hand in his face. I saw him tap Kobe on his head before and things like that. It didn't stop him. It didn't stop him. And after the game, you know, him looking himself in the mirror like, I did all I could do, and he get 44, and I'm ready for tomorrow. You know, you gotta have. You gotta have some big nuggets to do that, and teammates that. That do their job, knowing that it's. It's an uphill battle. Man, it's so great playing with guys with that commitment because it makes you commit that much more.
- [53:06]
Tyler
You can't tap Kobe on his forehead.
- [53:10]
Kevin Harlan
On the jump shot. Oh, yeah. A lot of it. Oh, yeah. You know how guys tap you on the elbow?
- [53:13]
Tyler
I know that.
- [53:14]
Kevin Harlan
Oh, yeah. No, yeah. On the forehead. On the shot.
- [53:17]
Chris Webber
On the forehead.
- [53:18]
Kevin Harlan
Oh, yeah. On the forehead.
- [53:20]
Tyler
Damn, that would piss me off.
- [53:22]
Kevin Harlan
Yeah. A little Lance Stevenson, you know, all that stuff. Yeah. Blowing in your ear. You gotta try anything.
- [53:29]
Tyler
You didn't do that, though.
- [53:31]
Kevin Harlan
No, I think against the King, I pushed and, you know, tried stuff, but it didn't work. Didn't work. Didn't work.
- [53:38]
Tyler
Doesn't seem like Akeem would get agitated with anything.
- [53:42]
Kevin Harlan
No, no. And. And you're hoping one guy, like, whether he makes the shot or misses the shot, you're hoping he misses it and starts to complain, and then you've done your job because at least he's thinking about something else while trying to destroy you.
- [53:53]
Tyler
I can't imagine somebody tapping Michael Jordan on the head. Even Kobe. I can't imagine that.
- [53:59]
Kevin Harlan
I want to. You know what? I couldn't either, but I'm. I played with some guys that I think would like a. Vernon Maxwell.
- [54:08]
Tyler
Vernon. Vernon and Albert. Alvin Robertson seem to be the craziest guys that, like, there have been crazy guys, but those are two guys that might be on the Mount Rushmore.
- [54:18]
Kevin Harlan
Yeah. Yeah. And you know what? You're so right. And what's so great about guys like that? I think people think that, you know, and I'm sure Draymond must do this, but I think people think that they're a distraction. And really what what it is is comfort because we needed what Vernon Maxwell had in Sacramento our first year. Jay Will White Chocolate needed that because if he gets that every day in practice and you get tired almost like of your big brother, then you understand when these other guys do it, it's nothing because you're getting, you know, abused all the time. And so those guys make locker rooms better because they do set an expectation where you have to be more accountable because you know this guy over here is crazy. Giving it his own.
- [54:57]
Tyler
Always great to catch up with you. Thank you Chris.
- [55:01]
Kevin Harlan
Thank you. Looking forward to seeing you in Adam Sandler's movie, baby.
- [55:04]
Tyler
Thank you bud. That's C. Webb.
- [55:06]
Steve Covino
Are you still quoting 30 year old movies? Have you said cool beans in the past 90 days? Do you think Discover isn't widely accepted? If this sounds like you, you're stuck in the past. Discover is accepted at 99 of places that take credit cards nationwide and every time you make a purchase with your card, you automatically earn cash back. Welcome to the now it pays to Discover. Learn more@discover.com credit card based on the February 2024 Nielsen report.
- [55:35]
Dan Patrick
While others are sitting in lecture halls, you're already building your future at Ferris State University. Hands on training starts from day one. With real world skills that lead straight to careers in construction, engineering, automotive tech and more, you're not just learning, you're earning, building a life you can be proud of. And with in state tuition for out of state students, success is within reach. Ferris State University. Unleash your potential. Register now at Ferris. Edu. That's Ferris Edu.
- [56:05]
Tyler
You Feeling this Too is a horror anthology podcast. It brings different creators to tell ten.
- [56:13]
Tom Pelissero
Vile no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
- [56:16]
Tyler
Grotesque.
- [56:17]
Tom Pelissero
Oh my God.
- [56:18]
Tyler
Horrific stories on what scares them the most. You feeling this too? Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [56:35]
Rodney Rogers
Why is a soap opera Western like Yellowstone so wildly successful? The American west with Dan Flores is the latest show from the Meat Eater Podcast Network. So join me starting Tuesday, May 6, where we'll delve into stories of the west and come to understand how it helps inform the ways in which we experience the region today.
- [56:58]
Mike Florio
Listen to the American west with Dan Flores on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts.
- [57:03]
Tom Pelissero
Or wherever you get your podcasts. I know a lot of cops and.
- [57:07]
Mike Florio
They get asked all the time, have you ever had to shoot your gun? Sometimes the answer is yes. But there's a company dedicated to a future where the answer will always be no. This is Absolute Season 1 Taser Incorporated.
- [57:22]
Steve Covino
I get right back there and it's bad.
- [57:25]
Mike Florio
Listen to Absolute Season 1 Taser incorporated on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [57:35]
Dan Patrick
You're listening to an iHeart podcast.