A Life Built on a Lie: Part 2

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Dating Detectives – "A Life Built on a Lie: Part 2"

Episode Details:

• Title: A Life Built on a Lie: Part 2
• Release Date: June 23, 2025
• Hosts: Molly (Producer) and Hanna Anderson
• Guest: Andrea Merriman

---

1. Introduction and Recap of Part 1 ([00:01] - [02:24])

The episode begins with Hanna Anderson and Molly introducing themselves, noting the absence of the professional Private Investigator Mackenzie Fultz, who is out of town. They briefly recap Part 1 of Andrea's story, where Andrea recounts her swift marriage during her time at Brigham Young University to a well-liked but somewhat dorky man who later becomes a highly successful businessman. Over the years, he isolates Andrea from his business dealings and ultimately reveals that his company, Market Street Advisors, was a Ponzi scheme.

Notable Quote:

• Molly ([02:00]): "And he had a lot of money, lot of money."

---

2. The Revelation of the Ponzi Scheme ([02:24] - [08:44])

Andrea details the shocking moment when her husband confesses that his business was a sham. She describes the scene where he sits her down with a legal pad bearing his company’s name and admits to running a Ponzi scheme. Initially, Andrea struggles to comprehend his revelation, experiencing a tumultuous mix of emotions including shock, horror, and disbelief.

Notable Quotes:

• Andrea ([04:07]): "Market Street Advisors, is a sham. And it has been from the very beginning. I've actually been running a Ponzi scheme."
• Andrea ([07:35]): "He was telling me all the things related to his crime... and I couldn't comprehend..."

---

3. Immediate Emotional Impact and Coping Mechanisms ([08:44] - [15:33])

Overwhelmed by the confession, Andrea grapples with understanding the gravity of her husband's actions. She contacts her sister and a friend for support, ultimately informing the family of her husband's deceit. Despite the emotional turmoil, Andrea remains focused on doing what’s best for her four children, deciding to maintain stability for them even as her world unravels.

Notable Quotes:

• Andrea ([08:40]): "I was the dutiful wife. I felt totally guilty..."
• Molly ([14:42]): "Screw you."
• Andrea ([15:33]): "He planned that moment, that day for more than a year."

---

4. Legal and Financial Fallout ([15:33] - [29:19])

Andrea discusses the rapid deterioration of her financial status following her husband's confession. Her assets are frozen, and she faces the daunting task of raising four children alone without any income. The government begins seizing her assets, including the family home, and Andrea navigates the complexities of proving her innocence. She highlights the inefficiency and prolonged nature of legal processes in such cases.

Notable Quotes:

• Andrea ([19:18]): "He couldn't take the guilt anymore."
• Andrea ([29:19]): "They investigate every part of you... I was found completely innocent."

---

5. Personal Resilience and Rebuilding Life ([29:19] - [62:28])

Despite facing severe financial hardship, Andrea exhibits remarkable resilience. She secures employment with the help of friends, pursues higher education, and gradually rebuilds her life. Andrea emphasizes the importance of focusing on daily accomplishments, maintaining a growth mindset, and leaning on a supportive community. Her children also demonstrate incredible strength, stepping up to support the family in various ways.

Notable Quotes:

• Andrea ([50:44]): "I've been taught to always have my own account."
• Andrea ([66:52]): "I told myself... sometimes it's just, you're still breathing."

---

6. Life After the Scandal: Remarriage and Advocacy ([62:28] - [77:12])

Andrea shares her journey of healing and eventual remarriage to a supportive partner who understands her past. Ironically, her new husband works as a fraud investigator, turning Andrea’s traumatic experience into a mission to protect others from financial scams. Andrea highlights the importance of forgiveness, both for herself and in her interactions with her ex-husband’s victims.

Notable Quotes:

• Andrea ([70:18]): "And I love him because he knew he was the first person in 11 years who understood my experience."
• Andrea ([77:12]): "If I can do it, anyone can."

---

7. Lessons Learned and Advice for Others ([77:12] - [84:50])

Andrea offers invaluable advice to women facing similar situations. She emphasizes the necessity of financial independence, networking, and maintaining a growth mindset. Andrea advocates for building a "fuck you fund" to ensure financial autonomy and protect oneself from potential deception or abuse.

Notable Quotes:

• Andrea ([73:50]): "Don't give up... be creative."
• Molly ([83:16]): "Don't give up. You have to expect it's going to be hard..."

---

8. Discussion on Gender Roles and Financial Autonomy ([84:50] - [100:09])

Hanna and Molly engage in a deep discussion about traditional gender roles, financial autonomy, and the importance of women being involved in financial matters to safeguard their independence. They highlight the dangers of financial dependency and the critical need for women to educate themselves on finances as a form of self-defense.

Notable Quotes:

• Hanna ([82:00]): "Get your fuck you fund."
• Molly ([83:16]): "Financial feminism is self-defense."

---

9. Final Reflections and Warnings ([100:09] - [105:08])

The hosts conclude the episode by reflecting on the broader implications of financial scams and the importance of being vigilant. They also touch on the psychological impacts such scandals can have on families and the necessity of empathy and support for victims.

Notable Quotes:

• Andrea ([104:22]): "Don't ignore those red flags. Just keep going."
• Hanna ([99:09]): "So happy. This makes you want to just show appreciation..."

---

Key Takeaways:

• Red Flags: Importance of being aware of financial red flags in relationships.
• Financial Independence: Building personal financial resources as a safeguard.
• Emotional Resilience: Focusing on daily accomplishments and seeking support.
• Forgiveness: Balancing forgiveness with setting boundaries.
• Community Support: Leveraging a supportive network to rebuild life.

Notable Quotes Recap:

• Andrea ([04:07]): "Market Street Advisors, is a sham. And it has been from the very beginning. I've actually been running a Ponzi scheme."
• Hanna ([82:00]): "Get your fuck you fund."
• Andrea ([73:50]): "Don't give up... be creative."
• Molly ([83:16]): "Financial feminism is self-defense."

---

Final Thoughts:

Andrea Merriman’s harrowing yet inspiring story underscores the importance of vigilance, financial autonomy, and personal resilience in the face of deceit and betrayal. Her journey from being deceived by a Ponzi scheme to becoming a fraud investigator herself serves as a powerful testament to human strength and the possibility of rebuilding life after devastating loss.

For more insights and inspirational content, follow Andrea on:

• TikTok: @andreamerriman
• Instagram: @andreamaran

---

This summary captures the essence of Part 2 of Andrea Merriman's story as shared on "The Dating Detectives" podcast. It highlights the critical moments, emotional undertones, and valuable lessons imparted throughout the episode.

Transcript

[Hannah]

The following program contains names, places and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following program is provided for entertainment purposes only, and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances. If you or a loved one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic violence hotline at 1-800-799-7-7237 for support. Welcome back to part two. That sounded like a game show. I don't know where that game show thing came from.

[Molly]

I like it.

[Hannah]

Dating Detectives. Yeah. And this game show. Nobody wins. Amen.

[Molly]

Nobody wins.

[Hannah]

Well, hello, I'm Hannah. Obviously, if you listen to us, you know that today I. I have another round of a co host that you're not as used to. But we love her just as much. Molly.

[Mackenzie]

Hello.

[Molly]

Hi.

[Hannah]

Mackenzie's out of town, so our producer's stepping in.

[Molly]

Hi. Mackenzie will be back next week, but. But I'm here for now and we love that.

[Hannah]

But we don't love this story so much. Last week we did part one. If you did not listen to part one, go back and listen. Quick, quick recap. Basically, Andrea got married very quickly, very young, with somebody she met at Brigham Young University. Everybody seemed to like him. He was kind of dorky, but he was well liked. And then he became very, very successful in his business. They had four kids, I think four. And she was not involved in his work. He actively got her out of that involvement. And he was like, don't look at my email. It's private client stuff. Don't look at the mail. It's private client stuff. And she was like, okay, I have four stories. Good, do your thing. Which is fair. And then.

[Molly]

And he had a lot of money, Lot of money.

[Hannah]

Then he dropped a bomb at the end of part one, which is. Spoilers coming now. If you don't listen. If you didn't listen to part one yet, go back.

[Molly]

Yes. Warning, warning. He said that this entire time his financial business has been a scam and it's been a Ponzi scheme. And that's where we find ourselves before.

[Hannah]

We start part two where Andrea's gotta.

[Molly]

Get through that and so many other things. More bombshells, craziness.

[Hannah]

We're gonna debrief at the end. You know, the usual stuff. Join Patreon if you wanna listen ad free. We have a $9 tier now for ad free episodes, $5 for everything else on Patreon. Thank you. If you came to the self defense workshop in LA this past weekend.

[Molly]

So fun.

[Hannah]

You were so good.

[Molly]

I don't know about that, but.

[Hannah]

Well, it's a good first step to learning how to feel a little better in yucky situations.

[Molly]

Yes. If you haven't taken a self defense class before, I highly recommend.

[Hannah]

We recommend it.

[Molly]

If you're in la, you can come to. Or Southern California, you can come to the next one with Hannah. But wherever you are, you should go to one of those.

[Hannah]

Yeah. Anyway, any other announcements before we get back to Andrea?

[Molly]

I don't think so. Let's get into it.

[Andrea]

So he ends his call, he sits down at the table. And I said, okay, so what's going on? What do you need? And he said, well, I needed to talk to you. And on the table was a yellow legal pad with the name of his company written down on it. And I was like, what's this? Why do you have your company name written on this legal pad? Why is it sitting here? And he said, well, that's what I wanted to talk to you about. I needed to tell you that my company, Market Street Advisors, is a sham. And it has been from the very beginning. I've actually been running a Ponzi scheme.

[Molly]

Oh, my God.

[Andrea]

I. I can't even describe what that moment was like. I can tell you a couple of things. One, he'd always been what I called the absent minded professor. And he would mix up dates sometimes and I thought, does he not realize April 1st, April Fool's Day is not for two or three weeks.

[Hannah]

Yeah. Why? Why is he doing it now?

[Andrea]

He's got his days wrong. And a funny joke. Yeah. The other thing I remember thinking was like, I was in the end of this tunnel of darkness and I couldn't understand English. Like he was saying these words, but I just couldn't understand them or what it meant. And then he went on to add that this was on a Wednesday, Wednesday, March 18. So he went on to explain that on Monday he had hired an attorney and revealed his crime to an attorney. That the next day, Tuesday, the day before our conversation, he and his attorney had gone to the US Government and turned himself in. That night, Tuesday night, the night before this conversation, he had gone to our church leaders and told them what he had been doing all those years. And they had all given him until that moment, that morning, to tell me. So the wife really is the last to know.

[Molly]

What did you say to him?

[Hannah]

I'm in shock.

[Molly]

Did you.

[Andrea]

Sorry.

[Molly]

Yeah, I know.

[Hannah]

Give me a minute.

[Molly]

I Understand? I understand. Did you say to him, is this a joke?

[Andrea]

I. I think I was just so filled with shock and horror and disbelief and sickness and guilt and humiliation and fear. Like, mind numbing. I just couldn't even comprehend it or have it make any sense. And I was number one. I wasn't quite sure what a Ponzi scheme was.

[Hannah]

Was this before or after Bernie Madoff?

[Andrea]

It was after. So this was 2009, I think. Bernie Madoff was 2007. 8. Somewhere. A year or two before this, I knew he'd done a Ponzi scheme. I'd heard the word. I knew it was illegal, but I didn't actually know the ins and outs of what a Ponzi scheme was, so I knew it was illegal. Then he added that he had already turned himself in and told me how that had happened, that he anticipated being charged for his crimes within a week or two, sentenced within six weeks, taken into custody, and that he would be serving a period of five to seven years in federal prison. And the second he said federal prison, boom, I was back in that tunnel of darkness.

[Hannah]

Like, what is going on?

[Andrea]

I could not comprehend knowing anyone that would ever break the law. Then he goes on to say, all of our assets are frozen. Everything's gone. I'm going to prison. You're going to be left alone to raise our kids. And by the way, you're going to need an attorney. And I'm like, what? Hold on, hold on.

[Hannah]

And all of this is still in his, like, calmness.

[Molly]

Yeah, that must be so. Like, it's eerie. Yeah.

[Hannah]

With.

[Andrea]

Without emotion. And then I remember this voice in my head kept saying, is that all? Ask him. Is that all? Is that all? Is that all?

[Hannah]

What made you think that?

[Andrea]

I have no idea. It was not coming from me. I loved and trusted my husband. I'd never questioned anything. But in that moment, that's what I just kept coming into my mind, is that I'll ask him if that is all. And finally I did. So he was telling me all the things related to his crime and what was going to happen. And I said, is that all? And he said, no. And I said, what else could there be? And then he tells me that he has hired call girls in his travels around the world, blah, blah, blah. And then he started to cry. And that's when I finally realized it was real.

[Molly]

Oh, my God.

[Andrea]

I don't think I'd ever seen him cry.

[Hannah]

Why do you think he was crying? I'm going to ask you for him. That's what I was going to say.

[Molly]

I almost feel like, I wonder what you. What your opinion on this is, but if this. If I was in your shoes, I would have said, you didn't need to tell me that. I'm already having the worst day of my life. You, like, I never needed to know.

[Hannah]

About the cold empathy. Is this guy strong? Sued.

[Andrea]

We did have some further conversations about the call girls, which are hilarious in a way, so remind me to tell you what those were.

[Molly]

Ready?

[Andrea]

Call girls. Yes. Yeah, got it.

[Molly]

So what do you do in the moments after that?

[Andrea]

I was so in shock and so horrified. I. I remember asking about one client, like I was in a panic, going, wait a second, you've taken all these people's money. What is going to happen to them? And I was so worried and scared for them. And I particularly asked about one client specifically because it was my very, very dear friend's dad.

[Hannah]

Yeah, I bet you had tons of people that you would connect with him. That's always how it is.

[Andrea]

Don't worry, they're going to sell all our assets. Everybody will be paid restitution.

[Molly]

Don't worry, it'll be. Don't worry, they're going to sell all our money.

[Andrea]

And everything is just flooding over me. And I got up and left. I was the dutiful wife. I felt totally guilty, and I said, I'm so sorry, but I have to get out of here. And I got up, ran out of the motorhome, jumped in my car, drove up the driveway, made it about two houses down the street, and I was crying so hard I literally couldn't see. And I thought I better pull over or I'm going to accidentally hit something. So I pulled over, called my sister. She wasn't home or her line was busy. I couldn't reach her. So I called my friend. The second call I made was the daughter of that one victim I'd asked about. And I told her what had happened. I was crying so hard. And she kept saying what she was as shocked as I was. Her parents happened to be visiting, so I could hear in the background, oh, my God. They could hear what was going on.

[Hannah]

And they're finding out about this for the first time as well.

[Andrea]

They all are. And I said, what do I do? What do I do? Everything's gone. Should I try to get money? What should I do? She goes, yes, go and get money. So I drove to my bank. I withdrew, like, two grand out of my savings account, by the way. By the time this happened, my mom had passed away, so I didn't have parents. It was me alone with four kids, not knowing, no job, nothing. Didn't know what I was gonna do.

[Hannah]

And Your youngest is 3.

[Andrea]

3.

[Hannah]

And my oldest is about to go to college. Oh, my God.

[Andrea]

So I ran and got some money, and then I didn't know what else to do, so I went home and I looked around for my husband. When I got home and I couldn't find him anywhere. And I went in finally to the motorhome, wondering if he was still there. And I was so scared to go in the motorhome, wondering if I was gonna find him having done something to himself, because who wouldn't? I mean, I just thought, this is the worst thing ever. How. But he wasn't there. I ended up running into him in our backyard. And he was on the phone. He handed me the phone. And it was a man's voice on the phone who introduced himself. He said, andrea, can I just say I am so sorry for the day that you're having? And he introduced himself as the attorney that my husband had hired.

[Molly]

For himself or for you?

[Andrea]

For himself. For himself. He said, at that point, I was like a lunatic. I was crazy. I didn't believe anything. I remember, this is so ridiculous. And I knew it at the time, but I said it anyway. Well, how in the world do I know this is really your name? And how do I know your name?

[Molly]

I think that's totally because once your world is turned upside down like that, you're like, was anything real? Is anything real?

[Andrea]

Yes. That's how I felt. And he said, all I can tell you is that I met your husband two days before when he walked in to my office, revealed his crimes, hired me, blah, blah, blah. And he said, do you have any questions for me? I said, yes. Yeah, what should I do? He goes, well, number one, you're going to have to hire an attorney. More on that in a minute. And number two, whatever you do, don't touch any money. And what was the one thing I'd done? I can touch the money.

[Molly]

Only $2,000 though, right?

[Andrea]

Yeah, I said. And he goes, what? I said, I actually did go and get some money. He goes, why would you do that?

[Hannah]

Why would you do that?

[Andrea]

Why?

[Molly]

Because I have a three year old and how am I gonna feed them?

[Andrea]

He just told me we're selling all our assets.

[Hannah]

Sorry, we're all.

[Andrea]

I said, because I have four kids, I have to keep them alive, and I. I need money. And he said, okay, I'll let the government know that that's how much you took and why you took it. And then the conversation ended and I hung up the phone and I'm chatting with my husband. I said, what do you mean I need an attorney? I haven't done anything wrong. I haven't committed a crime. I'm innocent. I didn't even know a crime was being committed. And he said, that's just what happens in these situations. You're going to need an attorney. I said, and how am I supposed to pay for one? I was just told all of our accounts are frozen, everything's gone. And I said, do I just put it like the, the retainer on our credit card? He goes, you can't. I maxed out our credit cards, paying for mine.

[Molly]

Okay, Screw you.

[Andrea]

Knowing, knowing that I would need an attorney. He had left me high and dry, by the way. He told me later that he had planned that moment, that day for more than a year.

[Molly]

So he knew.

[Andrea]

He knew that whole last year it was all about to come crumbling down and I'm innocently living my life not having any clue for a year.

[Hannah]

He knew that.

[Molly]

He could have told you, given you some heads up so you could have gotten a job or prepared yourself in some way, or left him or left.

[Andrea]

Well, yes, but the second he would have told me, I would have turned him in.

[Molly]

Yeah, right. Yeah.

[Andrea]

I would never have stood by while a crime was being committed. So, yeah.

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[Hannah]

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[Andrea]

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[Hannah]

Going up, we thought we'd bring our prices down. So to help us, we brought in a reverse auctioneer, which is apparently a.

[Andrea]

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[Hannah]

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[Andrea]

Sold.

[Molly]

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[Hannah]

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[Molly]

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[Hannah]

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[Molly]

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[Hannah]

At this point in the story, you don't know why it unraveled, why he got caught or turned himself in?

[Andrea]

No. He just told me that he could not take the guilt anymore. Now the timing of his guilt is a little suspicious because he suddenly felt guilty after 14 or 15 years during the 2008, 2009 economic crisis, when the market was down, Ponzi schemes were crumbling, nobody was investing. So I try not to pass judgment. I'm telling you what he said, but the timing is interesting. Suspicious.

[Molly]

A little bit.

[Hannah]

I try not to pass judgment. Is a really, really admirable thing to say. Yeah.

[Molly]

Something Hannah and I have never said before.

[Hannah]

We're not. And we have enough for you, so.

[Molly]

You don't need to. We have enough judgment for you, but.

[Hannah]

Oh, my goodness. And also, he couldn't handle the guilt of that anymore. But he's fine with the guilt of leaving his family with nothing.

[Molly]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Andrea]

Yep.

[Hannah]

God, I'm so sorry. Okay, so this day.

[Molly]

Yeah. What do you do next?

[Andrea]

So I remember not knowing what to do. I started having people calling. Like the attorney called, and the question of the day was, what are you going to do? I didn't know. A friend of mine who was a counselor called. I think my husband had called him and told him to call me. So he called and said, what are you going to do? And I was like, I have no idea. The only thing I did know, I said was, I need to do what's best for my children. And he's like, oh. And I said, what? Is that wrong? He said, no. But I tell you what, if every person in trauma had that attitude, we'd have a lot less screwed up kids in the world. He's like, I think that's the right choice. So that was my goal. That was how I operated through the whole thing, was I would do what was best for my kids. So that meant I didn't kick them out of the house. I could have, but I had a three year old and I had a third grader who didn't understand and they wanted normalcy and they wanted a family. And I knew he'd be going away for a while, so I thought, well, I guess I can suck it up and have this person around that I just could not stand. He became an instant stranger. The moment I found out all of this, it was like I didn't know him and I didn't trust him. But I let him stay in the house because it was best for my kids. I just tried to make every decision with that in mind. It turns out it takes a lot longer to Build a case and prosecute a criminal than he led me to believe. So that night, at some point I went, oh, my gosh, I've got my kid at daycare still. Like, I had forgotten everything. So I ran, picked him up. And then my kids started coming home from school. The thing the counselor had told me was, I asked him, I said, how am I going to tell my kids? And he said, it would be best if you let him tell the kids. This isn't on you. You didn't do anything. Make him tell the kids. So the kids got home, I said, hey, we're going to meet together as a family. Have a family council at 7 o' clock, so be there. And my kids told me later, my older kids said, we thought you were going to tell us a grandparent had passed away. Because they could tell that I'd been crying. They could feel the stress.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Andrea]

But they didn't know what was going on. So we gather as a family and he tells them in his narcissistic way, minimizing every part of the horror that he had created. I think he said something like, kids, we've gathered you here today because I'm going to be going away for a little while. And I'm like over on the other side of the room going to prison.

[Hannah]

Yeah, let's.

[Andrea]

I've made a little mistake. And I'm over on the other side of the room going, lies 24 hours a day for 15 years, stealing money over and over again. And so he just minimized every little bit of it. I was correcting it. They were super kind. They all got up, went to him, hugged him, and then he got up and left the house. And I'm left there with four kids.

[Hannah]

He got up and left the house.

[Andrea]

I'm sorry, staring at me like, what are we gonna do?

[Molly]

Did they understand that?

[Andrea]

They're. They were all just looking at me like, what are we gonna do? And I remember in that moment saying, I don't know what we're gonna do, but I know a couple of things. One, we have to forgive. I'm going to require that we forgive this somehow. And I promise you, I'm gonna go to work and I'm gonna work like heck and we will survive this, but I just don't have the details. And then the doorbell rang and my kids and I look at each other, everyone's crying. I mean, their world has just been destroyed. We go and open the door and it's one of his financial investment victims standing there and he goes off on us Screaming and yelling and ranting and raving.

[Hannah]

That's so traumatizing.

[Andrea]

The worst language, the worst everything. And we're all five of us are just standing there bawling, listening. And I understand how they feel because I lost everything I thought I had to. So I do have empathy for the victims, the clients. I had my own that I had to go through to forgive myself and to let go of guilt that I felt that I was married to someone who would do something like that. Although I was never involved, never knew a crime was being committed. I had lived off of their money. I didn't know it, but I had. So there was guilt for that. And I feel so bad for them. I have a lot of empathy for them and always have had. However, I was not allowed. I was instructed by the government to have nothing to do with any victim. No contact, no conversations. And at the same time, I don't think they should have attacked my kids.

[Hannah]

That's what I was saying. Your kids are completely innocent. And you.

[Molly]

And you were, too. I mean, they didn't know that at.

[Hannah]

The time, but even if they didn't.

[Molly]

Know that, it's like, if you're gonna yell at anyone, yell at him.

[Andrea]

So I felt that I understood to a small degree why they would attack. Attack me, but I never have understood the kid part of it. I don't think you attack children over it. Like, that part I'm not okay with, and I don't have empathy for that part of it.

[Hannah]

It's just.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

So anyway, trauma to their existence, and I can't imagine. Yeah.

[Andrea]

So next steps in all of this, There's a lot of fallout that happens. So I am trying to figure out where we're going to live and what kind of job I can get in a down economy. And I've got legal issues facing me. I'm dealing with media surrounding the house and asset forfeiture and seizure.

[Hannah]

When did that change happen? When did it become more public?

[Andrea]

Oh, within days, because angry victims called and alerted the media.

[Molly]

Wow.

[Andrea]

So then the media broke the story. I've got every network from across the country with their huge satellite dishes surrounding my house, and people look. Literally standing and staring in my windows. Oh, my God, 24 hours a day.

[Hannah]

And was he still. He was still living at the house?

[Andrea]

Yeah, he's still at the house. But I didn't have any money to do anything, so I eventually just taped paper, white paper from the copy machine on all the windows so people couldn't see through. And it didn't matter what I did. It was reported in the media. I. I saw something online in one of the news stories about cheap white paper covering the windows.

[Molly]

Oh, my God.

[Andrea]

I mean, everything was reported.

[Hannah]

Poor children going to school.

[Andrea]

Yeah. And I remember one day, my third grader, he had been at a friend's house. What a kind friend. To invite him over despite all of this. But my doorbell rings and I thought, okay, I wonder who that is. I go, I answer the door, and it's my friend. Her name was Kim. She's like, I'm so sorry, but your son will not get out of the car with all this circus here. So she felt bad, but she had to go and fight through it to get to my door. So then I came out and got him and brought him in. But it was really hard on my kids, especially that particular kid, to go through all of that. I learned later that he was young enough to not understand, but old enough to know things were rough.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Andrea]

So that was a tough thing for him.

[Molly]

Eventually, were they coming into your house and taking out your assets?

[Andrea]

And eventually they did so. So what happened was the government hadn't known this crime had been committed, and so my husband basically walked in and handed him a crime. Now, you think they could just imprison him and take his word for it. But no, they have to build the case. So that takes months.

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Andrea]

It started with, you know, of course, he's meeting with them and telling them details, and they're investigating the crime and all of that. But at the same time, they came to my home, first visit to see what was there, to make lists of assets for federal seizure. So I knew they were coming. But aside from that, it was really similar to what you see portrayed on TV and in Hollywood movies. Like all these FBI agents and U.S. marshals roll up in dark SUVs with black tinted windows. They get out with their jackets that say FBI on the back, their sunglasses, they've got their guns on. They come into my home. They didn't break the door down because I knew they were coming. They were very kind. But then they just kind of walk through with video cameras and making lists and notes and went through every part of my home. And then afterward, a day or two later, I got the list of assets that they were seizing, and then they set a time to seize all the assets. And they were really considerate of my kids. So my two oldest kids birthdays were April 6th and April 11th, and they made a concerted effort to not do the seizure on their birthdays. So they did it in between which I thought was nice.

[Hannah]

No, I. It is, it is.

[Molly]

It's just all so much devastating in general. And what are during this time when all of this is happening? How. I don't even know what my question is. How. How are you?

[Hannah]

How are you getting through the day?

[Andrea]

Yeah, it was rough, I can tell you. The stress was so great the first day from March 18 to March 19. I don't even know why I had the presence of mind to get on the scale on the 19th, but I had lost seven pounds overnight that first day. That's a lot of stress. That's never happened to me. So it was stressful. I wasn't sleeping. I was just trying to keep going. I just remember getting out of bed every day, trying to figure out what I was going to do and had tons of questions. So I guess it was super hard to have the stranger, this despicable, lying criminal in my home. But at the same time, it was an opportunity for me to ask questions. One of the conversations that I had with them was about call girls. How many call girls? When? Where? When did you first hire a call girl? Blah, blah, blah. He did not know the answer to a single question. He didn't know when he first had. And I'm like, I would know the day, the time, the minute, the hour.

[Molly]

At least the year.

[Andrea]

Like that. Yeah, he didn't know. But the one thing he did know was he was very indignant when I asked how many. He said, I don't know. What does it matter? I said, it matters. No, it doesn't. I said, yes, it does. He said, no, there's no difference between three or 33. I said, oh, yes, there is.

[Molly]

Yeah. Multiple STDs is the difference.

[Andrea]

Yeah. The one thing that he did get very indignant about regarding the call girl conversation was he said, I don't think you're giving me enough credit for the fact that I used condoms out of consideration and respect for you.

[Hannah]

Do you want a statue?

[Molly]

Do you want a trophy?

[Andrea]

What if Mackenzie, we're hearing you say the audacity?

[Hannah]

Because that's bonkers to think you have it. You deserve any of that.

[Molly]

Bare minimum is an understatement.

[Andrea]

Narcissist right there.

[Molly]

Yes.

[Andrea]

Yes, it was. I don't think you're giving me enough credit for the consideration I showed you did that.

[Hannah]

Like, maybe not in the moment. Cause in the moment, I would probably want to, like, rip my hair out. But did that kind of show you that you're not dealing with someone who has remorse and has a Normal amount of empathy. Because that to me would be like, oh, you're not on the same page.

[Molly]

As everyone else, but you're also having to like, reconfigure who he is to you after knowing him for what, 20 years at this point?

[Andrea]

Yeah. So weird. It's. It's weird to. And I remember noting this. Like, it's so weird. I know who he is now. I know what he's done, but I'm still falling out of love. Like, it was weird. It wasn't like we grew apart and had this horrible marriage. It was like hitting a wall.

[Hannah]

Well, in a way, it's like a death. Like you're grieving a person that existed.

[Andrea]

Yeah. Until then, I don't grieve any part of him.

[Hannah]

No, it's the idea.

[Andrea]

It was. It was the image that I.

[Molly]

The life that you had together in the family.

[Andrea]

I mean. Yeah, it all ended.

[Mackenzie]

Have you ever been to a therapist who only had openings in the middle of your workday? Or maybe gone to a dermatologist that brought up your cosmetic issues before you did? Or like somebody that's an hour away, A doctor that you have to drive so far to get there? No, we're not settling anymore. We always want you to get the best of the best when it comes to dating. Not settling there. We also don't want you to settle when it comes to your health. And that's where ZocDoc comes in. You don't have to settle anymore because it's the easiest way to find any kind of doctor or medical professional that you need. So ZocDoc is a free app and a website where you can search and compare high quality in network doctors and click to instantly book an appointment. We're talking about booking in network appointments with more than a hundred thousand doctors across every specialty from mental health to a dentist, to primary care to urgent care, whatever. You can filter your doctors to take to see who takes your insurance to see where they're located. If you want to see a woman, if you want to see a certain. Any kind of specific thing that you need, they do it for you and they have ratings. It's like Yelp for doctors. You can also make your appointment through ZocDoc, which is awesome. And typically you can get an appointment really fast, like just 24 to 72 hours of booking. And it's just makes it so easy. I feel like it solves a lot of problems. And I've been using ZocDoc for probably like over 5 years now. I truly find all My doctors there. It's so helpful. I use this. And you know, you should too. So stop putting off those doctor's appointments and go to Zocdoc.com TDD to find and instantly book a top rated doctor today. That's Z O c d o c.com TDD Zocdoc.com TDD MacKenzie, you've told me that you don't like cooking.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Don't like it. I don't know how.

[Andrea]

Also.

[Mackenzie]

Well, I guess.

[Ryan Reynolds]

And I'm lazy.

[Andrea]

Maybe.

[Mackenzie]

Well, me too. But what if I told you there was a way to cook with exactly the clean, healthy ingredients that you needed measured out for you with very clear instructions in a way that was so fast, so easy, and so delicious, where you could become a chef basically without actually having to have any skill if.

[Ryan Reynolds]

It'S already measured out. And I don't have to math. That is amazing.

[Mackenzie]

You do not have to math. And also, I'm talking about Green Chef. By the way, Green Chef makes it really easy.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Oh, they sent me a really good box.

[Hannah]

Really good.

[Mackenzie]

And it was easy. I did they have heat and eat meals, which is new for them. So that's just like a really delicious, wholesome meal in three minutes. But I did cook the Cajun shrimp over cheesy corn polenta.

[Hannah]

Oh, my God.

[Ryan Reynolds]

That actually sounds really good.

[Mackenzie]

It was so good. And it felt like I was in a restaurant because I would never make that for myself.

[Ryan Reynolds]

No way. Who would ever know? To me.

[Mackenzie]

I know.

[Andrea]

Exactly.

[Mackenzie]

But also I would never know, like, how to buy that kind of ingredients. And I love that it sends you what you need and you don't. It doesn't go bad.

[Ryan Reynolds]

And you have to buy like a whole jar of something as opposed to just like a small amount that you need for the recipe.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, 100 exactly. It's perfect for anything like that. And it's also perfect for supporting any wellness journey you're on. Their recipes feature fresh organics and seasonal produce and 100% responsibly sourced proteins so you'll feel your best when you're making your polenta. Oh my God, it was so good. Green Chef's real clean ingredients help you build lasting, healthy habits without the hassle so you can enjoy salads ready in just five minutes. Protein filled breakfast or nutrient rich smoothies to fuel your day. Green Chef is ready to nurture your nutritional needs. Make this summer your healthiest yet with Green chef. Head to greenchef.com 50 dating detectives and use code 50 dating detectives to get 50 off your first month. Then 20 off for two months with free shipping. That's code 50 dating [e-mail]. 50 dating detectives.

[Andrea]

So our church paid for him to go to counseling. And after the first appointment, a counselor called me and said, I just wanted to talk to you about the session with your husband. I said, oh, it's okay. I don't need to know anything. We're getting divorced. It's not my business. He goes, no, I think you need to know this. He said, I don't know if this will help you or not sit well with you, but your husband is a narcissist. And he explained to me what that was. I didn't know what that was. I had always thought my husband was a little bit self centered.

[Hannah]

But you didn't know it as a personality disorder.

[Andrea]

It was kind of a joke. I would. It was always. Everything was always about Shawn and we made it a joke, but it really was really extreme narcissism. He said, and I want you to know that he will never change. He's been this way for almost 50 years. He will never change and you need to know that. And he said, he might improve a little bit, but he'll never be normal. It won't be someone like you. And so I guess that was good to hear because I was divorcing him anyway. But maybe that helped me release any confirm that it was right. Yeah. And then after he was sentenced, a judge, the judge that had sentenced him, tracked me down. We were already divorced by this point, living in separate states. He found me at work and he called me and said, andrea Merriman, do you know who I am? I was like, no. He said, I'm the judge that just sentenced your. I don't know if it was his sentencing or his charge when he was charged, but he said, do you know why I'm calling you? I said, no, I don't. I said, we're divorced. I'm in another state. I said, maybe you're calling to tell me I must be the dumbest person alive because that's really how I felt to have lived and never had a clue. I felt so dumb and humiliated and everything else. He said, no, I am calling to tell you that I am getting ready to retire soon. And in my 40 years, I have never seen anyone better at what he does than your husband. And I wanted you to know that. He said, if you could have seen him in the courtroom, the lack of emotion, the lack of empathy, the lack of response and feeling. He said, he is the absolute best at what he has done of anyone I have seen in my entire career.

[Hannah]

How did that feel?

[Molly]

Glad he called you and said that.

[Andrea]

I wish I could say it made me feel less dumb, but it helped me to know that it wasn't just me. Now, to all the people that don't know me or thought they knew me, that said, oh, she had to have known. She's too smart not to have known. It probably helped me in that regard that I could just say, if he's the best at what he did, nobody could see it. And nobody did because.

[Hannah]

Yeah. You were not the only one.

[Andrea]

He had an employee, and the employee never caught on.

[Molly]

Wow.

[Andrea]

He had an accountant. The accountant never caught on. He had investors, a lot of wealthy people. I'm sure they're smart. I'm sure they check out investment opportunities. Some of them were sophisticated investors. They must have deemed that this was a good opportunity because they turned money over to him.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Andrea]

He was audited an entire year from January of 2008 to February of 2009 by the IRS, and they never caught on to anything. Wow. So I guess I'm in good company. I never caught on, so.

[Hannah]

And also, he turned himself in. It wasn't that he got caught, although. Was there something we now know that led him to do that?

[Andrea]

No. No.

[Hannah]

So he just really turned himself in.

[Andrea]

I think it was a house of cards. It was collapsing. He came just the new money in that you need to keep a Ponzi scheme going out of the economy.

[Molly]

I want to pause for a second and just explain what a Ponzi scheme is for anyone who doesn't know. So a Ponzi scheme is when you take money from somebody, you say you're going to invest it, and then instead of investing it, you just put it in your bank account, and then the. The gains that you promised is. Was his. Sorry, go ahead.

[Andrea]

Or you use it to pay off.

[Hannah]

Yeah. The next person.

[Molly]

Exactly. And then the next person, you pay off the first investor, and that just.

[Hannah]

Keeps going, and you just trade everybody's money around.

[Molly]

You just trade everyone's money around until you can't get new people anymore.

[Andrea]

Right. And then it collapses.

[Molly]

So in 2008, when people didn't have any money to invest, the house of cards is going to come crumbling down.

[Andrea]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

And I asked about Madoff because I feel like that put it on the map at that time.

[Molly]

Totally.

[Andrea]

And he lived on it, too. Not all, maybe, Ponzi schemers live off the money as well, although I think most do. So he's taking the New money that's invested and paying off earlier investors and living on it. And he lived a very high lifestyle.

[Molly]

Yeah. How much money in the end, was. Was stolen?

[Andrea]

In the end, he was prosecuted for $20 million. Oh, my God. And he. He went on African safaris all around the world. He had Aston Martins and sports cars and watches and art and clothes, and he just had quite the lifestyle, so.

[Molly]

And did you have to sell your house?

[Andrea]

Oh, yeah.

[Hannah]

Wait, yeah. Let's hear the. After.

[Andrea]

When he told me that the day, March 18, in that first conversation, that everything was gone and he was going to prison and I would be left alone to raise our kids, I remember saying, well, thank goodness the house has paid off. And he said, no, you don't understand. House is gone, cars is gone, savings is gone. Everything's gone. So everything was taken and sold at an auction to pay the victims back. But the home he'd made. So I'm much more conservative financially than he was. Like, he traveled and did all this expensive stuff. I was doing our family. So I had a nice life, but I wasn't out spending thousands of dollars anywhere. So what I had told him my whole life was, I just want our house paid off. So he'd say, your birthday's coming. What do you want? I don't want anything. Put what you would have spent on my gift toward paying the house off. Christmas, what do you want? I don't want anything. Put what you would have spent on a gift toward paying the house off. So he made a big production of paying the house off for me for my 40th birthday.

[Hannah]

And were you involved in finances? Like, did you see these payments? No, he didn't.

[Andrea]

He just. He paid it off, and he paid the bills. I had my own account. We had separate bank accounts. I would get, like 3,000amonth, you know, to run the household or whatever. He paid all the bills. And then after he paid the house off, within a few months, he's like, all right, I want to arrange a line of credit against our home at the bank. And I said, no, our house has paid off. Yeah, I want our house paid off. He said, no, no, no. Not to spend, just to have in case of emergency. And then he brought up the fact that my dad had passed away and said, I just don't want what happened to your mom to happen to you. Because when my dad had died, everything was kind of delayed while things got settled, and she thankfully had some money saved, so we lived off of that. So he's like, I just want to arrange this so that if anything ever happened to me, you would have money to live on and support the kids until everything settles, and then you'll be fine. So like a dummy, I go down to the bank and all the bankers are in the room. There's like three or four of them while they make this big production of me authorizing a line of credit on our house. I think he went right out the next day and took the money out on it.

[Hannah]

Wow. So he played to your emotions.

[Molly]

It makes sense and it seems like a logical thing to do. Yeah.

[Andrea]

And he lied. I mean, he lied, he said, oh, I'll never use it. And he did. But, you know, again, I thought I was married to this good man, a church going man, a successful businessman, this charming, nice guy that everybody liked. So I never questioned what he said. I wasn't calling up or checking on the bank account every month to see if he'd used any of the credit line. I just wasn't. I was doing our kids.

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Andrea]

So anyway. Yeah. Ended up losing it all. So.

[Molly]

Including the house?

[Andrea]

Yeah, including the house.

[Hannah]

What was the timeline of him going to prison and things going away?

[Andrea]

So everything just started going away within weeks.

[Molly]

We were.

[Andrea]

We were allowed to stay in the house while I found a place to live, but the house went back to the bank because of the line of credit he'd taken out on it. So I filed for divorce within the month of finding out all this was happening. And it took a couple months for the divorce to be final. So in that time period, my kids were finishing the school year, I was arranging a job, looking for. For a place to live, meeting with attorneys, being investigated by the government to see if I was involved at all. Yeah.

[Hannah]

What was that? I want to hear more about that.

[Andrea]

Wrapping up the details of my life. Well, they investigate every part of you. They're looking at your bank accounts and the business bank accounts and seeing did money come into the business account and go into your account did money and no, it never did. I wasn't involved.

[Hannah]

Okay, so it was easy to prove your innocence.

[Andrea]

Yeah, it takes time. It takes time. But in the end, I was found completely innocent. In fact, my attorney called me and said, I can't believe it. I've never seen a spouse cleared as quickly and completely as you have been. I've never seen a spouse believed to be as innocent as you.

[Molly]

How did you pay the lawyer?

[Andrea]

So I ended up. I actually somehow got the impression that the lawyer was just going to help me out for free. And I had that first day when I found out, and I ran to the bank and took some money out. When my mom passed away, I had a small life insurance policy that I got from her, like, 20 grand or something that was in that bank account. So part of my attorney battle was I was fighting for that account.

[Hannah]

Right.

[Andrea]

Because that came from an insurance company. It didn't come from investor money. And so anything tainted or mingled with Ponzi scheme money or touched by my husband was gone. But that money, he had never touched.

[Hannah]

So that's. I mean, I was thinking about that because I talk about. I got this from another. Her first 100k is another podcast, and she talks about a fuck you fund that she recommends everyone have just in case. But I was curious if, in this case, even if you were to have your own income or whatnot, would they. It would take time to prove that.

[Molly]

Yeah. That it wasn't connected. Yeah.

[Andrea]

And anything that would have co. Mingled with his money would have been gone anyway.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Andrea]

My mom raised me to always have my own account.

[Molly]

Yes.

[Andrea]

And so. So I had always put my piano money in my own account. The problem was I was also raised to be very honest. So he found out or suspected that I had an account, and he would come and say, do you have any money saved? And I didn't want to lie. I couldn't lie.

[Hannah]

And you didn't.

[Molly]

And why would you. He's your husband. Yeah. Yeah.

[Andrea]

So I'd say, yeah, well, how much do you have? And I'd tell him, all right, can I borrow that? But then he never pay me back.

[Molly]

And what are you gonna say about it? Cause he's funding your life. So it's like, so why does he.

[Hannah]

Need to borrow your money?

[Andrea]

Yeah, I know. Weird. So I had been taught to have my own fun like that. I had tried to be obedient to that, and I think it's smart, but he had taken it. So when I got that life insurance that went in there, he hadn't touched it. And I think, honestly, he didn't touch it on purpose because my mom passed away less than two years, probably about two years before he turned himself in. So I think he was counting on me having that money to start with. So in the end, battled the government for it because the bank overstepped the seizure order and seized anything that had my name on it and his name on it, even though he wasn't on that account. They seized that account. So I battled for it back. And so I thought I was going to head into my new life with 20 grand. And I Thought that would help me make it almost two years because I ended up getting a job that paid $48,000 a year. But four kids and a mom trying to live on that, that wasn't enough. I was $1,000 short a month. So I thought, okay, that is going to give me what I need to try to make it two years and maybe I'll be able to get a raise or find, you know, something. Well, when everything settled and I moved to Utah, then my attorney hit me with a legal bill for more than half of that money. So I didn't end up getting to start with much.

[Molly]

Wow. And your ex husband is, is out of prison now?

[Andrea]

He is now. Okay. Interesting part about him. He cooperated with the government, turned himself in. Which there are sentencing guidelines. When you commit a crime, if you do this, this and this, it earns you a certain amount of prison time. But if you do other things, maybe that can take off some of the prison time. So for example, my husband turned himself in, which would qualify him for a little reduction on his prison time. He personally called every single victim, told them what he did and said he was sorry. Now don't think he's so great.

[Molly]

Right?

[Andrea]

He got reduction in prison time for doing that.

[Molly]

Yeah, he knew what he was doing.

[Hannah]

Wait, they give you reduction for apologizing?

[Andrea]

But I guess it would. I don't know how much, but I know that he made a specific effort to do that for that reason. And depending on your number of victims, you know, if you're over a certain number that qualifies for more prison time, where if it's a smaller number, maybe less. So he ended up getting sentenced. He went into this whole thing, day one, March 18, when he told me about his crime, he said, I anticipate I'll be sentenced to five to seven years in federal prison. He was sentenced to 12 and a half years in federal prison. So he got more than the max that he qualified for. And I think that's what happens when you break the law. You get a whole lot, whole lot more than you bargain for.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Andrea]

And the consequences are so far reaching in ways that you never can imagine ever impact to some of my kids. We had some really scary experiences that were part of this. One victim was so angry, he took a loaded gun and he came to my front door ready to blow my husband away. Thankfully, he turned around and went home without hurting anyone. But one night in all of this, while my daughter was home alone, people broke into our house.

[Molly]

Oh my God.

[Andrea]

She was hiding, I think so I think it was victims, but we don't know. She was home alone. She was hiding under a piece of furniture.

[Molly]

Oh, my God.

[Andrea]

Texting her brother for help, saying people in house scared help. And he was at a friend's house and raced home to try to get, I mean, all kinds of things. And that traumatized some of my kids. My little three year old, he heard about the break in because my oldest son had taken his two younger brothers with him to the friend's house. So when it happened, he throws the brothers in the car. They're charging home to save her. And that little three year old would not go in a home alone, a room alone, a bathroom alone, anything alone. For years he slept by the side of my bed until he was almost 14.

[Molly]

Wow.

[Andrea]

And that's from the break in. And I think if we knew what our lies actually result in, the damage and the trauma that we cause through the choices that we make. There are no small decisions. There are no small mistakes. That tiny little thing had such far reaching tentacles of destruction to the victims, to the family, just. It's astounding. And so we've lived through that too.

[Molly]

Yeah. Do you remember the day that he got sentenced?

[Andrea]

I do. I was more impacted than I expected. So I remember I was living and working in Utah. I had a friend in Denver call me and she made a big deal about, okay, I'm going to go to the sentencing so that I can report to you what happens. And I was like, and how long.

[Molly]

Was this after the March confession?

[Andrea]

He was charged in September of that year, and he was taken into custody at that time and put in a jail until his sentencing hearing. Because I'd moved, he didn't have anywhere to live, any place to go. And he wanted to get the clock ticking on his time so any time that he had served would come off the sentence once he was.

[Hannah]

I didn't know that either.

[Andrea]

So he ended up being sentenced, I think in around March of 2010. It was sometime after, so maybe.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Andrea]

And so I had this friend calling and I was like, oh, it's okay. I live in Denver. We're divorced. She's like, nope, I am going for you. I'm going to tell you what happens. So I was at work and this friend had never been a particular fan of my husband. She didn't hate him, but she didn't love him the way everybody else did. And she called me after the sentencing in tears. I couldn't even understand her. And she said, andrea, it was terrible. She said, the feeling, the hatred the vengeance, the anger in that courtroom was sickening. She's like, I get why they feel it. I get why. But she said it was horrible. She goes, he just sat there without emotion. And they read a letter from his mother to the judge. And that's what she was most upset by. She said his mother wrote a letter, and that was the nail in the coffin of his sentencing.

[Molly]

Wait, what did his mom say?

[Andrea]

She said that she couldn't describe in words what his actions had done, that he'd taken all their money, that her husband had worked hard so they'd have a comfortable retirement, and it was gone. She pretty much ended up saying, I hope you make him pay. So she calls me and tells me I lost it. I. I felt unexpectedly sad, but not for me and not for him, but for my kids. I had been up till one in the morning, and maybe some of it was exhaustion with that little third grader who was crying till one in the morning, knowing the sentencing was happening. And he was worried and scared for his dad. And then I get up and I'm in the office by 8 after very little sleep. And at the end of the day, I find out what happened. I lost it. I, like, completely wailed at my desk, and that was that. 12 and a half years. I just. I thought, my oldest son's gonna be 30 before he ever sees his dad again. How do you survive that? How can that be? Yeah. But we did. We survived just fine. I ended up finding a job in Utah. So we moved to Utah to start our new life. And so that's where we were. My kids handled this like champions. I'm still amazed at the type of people they were. They went to school every day. Despite all the trauma. They went right out. My two oldest kids got jobs the next day after finding out about this loss and would give me their paychecks to try to help us make it.

[Molly]

Wow.

[Andrea]

Until I could get a job, they just were so good. My oldest stepped up. He was such always a patient, kind brother, but he really, you know, went over. My daughter did the cooking, like, just without being asked. She just took on grocery shopping and cooking and laundry after school while I was working, and then helping tend the younger kids. And they all went on to be great adults. They're kind, they're honest, they're educated, they've had careers or are building careers. And they're smart, good people. And in the end, that's what we all want for our kids.

[Hannah]

Right? I'm like, yeah, their love for you, that's what I Hear when you talk about that, like, obviously there's an all hands on deck. Like, okay, we gotta deal with this mentality that you model in just being strong. But then also it just sounds like their love for you is like even stronger than however angry or hard they were.

[Andrea]

So good. In fact, I figured out when my oldest son had healed some from the trauma because honestly, he was in high school and, you know, high schoolers can have their own ideas or say no or what. The day that he told me no, when I asked him to do something, floored me because I realized then I don't think he had told me no for two or three years. Like, he was so good.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

I'm imagining you being like, aw, you talked back to me. I'm so good. Exactly.

[Andrea]

I went, what? And then I walked away and just kind of rejoiced. I thought, okay, he's okay, he's normal.

[Molly]

That's so lovely.

[Hannah]

Wait, so how old is your youngest now?

[Andrea]

My youngest now is 19 and so we've had 16 years to recover. My little third grader that was so traumatized is now 25 and then my daughter is 30 and my son is 32.

[Molly]

Wow.

[Andrea]

So they've grown up.

[Hannah]

And did.

[Molly]

Do you have any relationship with him now or kids?

[Andrea]

No, I don't. Doing what he did made him very irrelevant to our family because he wasn't who we thought. So do we believe a word he says? No. Do we turn to him for advice? No. Does he help us in any way?

[Hannah]

He lost all respect and credibility.

[Andrea]

So for me, that's where I was at. I decided not to talk bad about him. I would just stick to the facts with my kids and I would be supportive for whatever they needed. So he got out a little bit early for good behavior, but he was gone for 10 full years. That made him irrelevant. I raised those kids without him and they grew up without him. So they have varying degrees of contact with him. But that little 3 year old really met his dad when he was 14. He doesn't remember him. He. Yeah, he. So he met him and it's not a father son relationship. It's some man that he knows. I'll say to him occasionally, hey, how long has it been since you've talked to your dad? And he'll say, oh, I don't know, two months maybe. Like, yeah, it's not. The, the son that's 25 now, I think has minimal to not much contact with them. Yeah, my daughter doesn't have a lot of contact with them, so they're all kind to him. They've all forgiven him. But forgiveness doesn't mean things go back to normal.

[Hannah]

Yeah, there aren't there.

[Molly]

He wasn't there to raise them, so.

[Andrea]

Yeah, so they're kind and they know him and. And I think they have varying degrees of relationships with him. They just don't really talk to me about it.

[Molly]

Yeah. I wanna ask about you rebuilding your life and how amazing you are for your life turned upside down. And then you have these four kids. I mean, what was that like?

[Andrea]

It was overwhelming and hard. And it was a long, hard slog. I would say it was 11 years of poverty where we never went out to eat, couldn't see a movie. If kids wanted to do sports, they had to pay for their own everything. But we survived and we never. They say it takes a village to raise children. I think it takes a village to survive life. I didn't do it on my own. I mean, someone was kind enough to give me a job. Someone networked on my behalf. Within a week of this happening, a friend of mine, her husband called and goes, hey, I hope you're not mad at me, but I called a mutual friend of ours, told him what has happened to you, and he told me to have you call him, that he has a job for you. Now, did I call him? No. So a week after that, the guy calls and goes, hey, didn't so and so tell you to call me? Didn't they tell you that I had a job for you? I said, yeah, they did, but you don't have to give me a job. I'll figure it out. He's like, no, don't you remember I offered you a job a year ago, a PR job? And you laughed in my face and said, no, thank you. I don't have time for that. He's like, I still need help. So he gave me a job, and it moved me to Utah. And I did that. And then through another friend, I got another job, and I was able to earn a master's degree and ended up in higher education. Oh, my gosh. And raised my kids. Yeah, I graduated with my master's at the same ceremony. My oldest graduated with his bachelor's degree, which made it awesome. And so just slowly, you know, time after time, step here, step there, but always with relationships and other people helping, you know, get out of bed every day, try to look for what you have and focus on that versus what you've lost. I really tried to make sure I accomplished something every day, even in those early dark days. And sometimes I Believe you have to be generous with yourself sometimes. My credit that I gave myself that accomplishment was, oh, you took a shower today.

[Hannah]

Yes.

[Andrea]

Sometimes it was just, you're still breathing. There you go. You made it through another day. So focus on something other than your misery. Really helped me accomplish something. Every day I stayed out of bed. I would have loved to have dropped off the edge of the horizon and never had to face the humiliation and the hatred and the hard and all of that. But at the same time, I have always believed, my mom taught me this and I passed it on to my kids, that in life it doesn't matter what happens to you. What matters is what you choose to do with it. And so I think if you focus on that, you're always going to turn out to be okay. It's not going to be easy. It was a long, hard slog, let me tell you. But finally I could see a light at the end of the tunnel and started to make some progress in my career and my finances and my life. And in the end found the courage to get remarried. I was gonna say married a fabulous guy. And here's the best, most ironic part. Not only is he a tall athlete, in the end, I got what I wanted professionally as a fraud investigator busting Ponzi scheme.

[Hannah]

Are you kidding me?

[Andrea]

Have you met like somehow connected to this? No, again, you can't. I have done nothing without the help of others. So I was so poor I did not have an extra dime for anything for 10 years. And the Thanksgiving of 2020, one of my, my best friend from high school, and she's been a lifelong friend, she venmoed me a hundred dollars and said, I don't know why you've been on my mind, but you have and I'm sending you this money. She'd never sent me money. She said, I hope you do. You can do whatever you want with it, but please do something with your for yourself. And I really needed closed toe shoes. It was getting cold and I didn't have anything but some sandals. So I went to DSW, bought two pair of shoes, had 20 bucks left when it was over and put that $20 online and was only online for a couple of weeks.

[Molly]

Like eharmony. Like you paid for match.com or it.

[Andrea]

Was, I don't even know which.

[Molly]

But you paid for one of those websites.

[Andrea]

Yeah, but the 20. Yeah, it was 1999 for a month or something. I put it on there and my profile was super friendly. It said if you're not at least six, two, don't bother if you're a liar.

[Hannah]

You're like, I'm not wasting time if.

[Andrea]

You hire prostitutes, if you can't manage money, if you're a criminal, if, blah, blah, blah, don't bother. And believe it or not, I heard from a couple of men, one hilariously said, can I ask a question? Do you have a problem intimidating men? I see that.

[Hannah]

I'm like, she has a story.

[Molly]

Yeah, I know what happened.

[Hannah]

Something happened there.

[Andrea]

And then I heard from. From one who said, well, I think I at least meet your height requirement. And that was who I end up marrying.

[Hannah]

Oh, my gosh.

[Andrea]

Wow. We love a sense of humor.

[Molly]

Yes.

[Hannah]

Wait, I was gonna ask you, like, advice for people. We ask a lot of guests, like getting back out there and how to trust again. And it's like, it's funny. It's like, date the person who catches the bad guy Also just like that.

[Molly]

That's how you get back out there, is just saying, like, this is what I want.

[Hannah]

I don't want anything else.

[Molly]

I want you to be 6:2. And I want you to not be a liar. And the liars will not say yes to that profile.

[Andrea]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

Also ask for some tax returns. Who cares? It's 2025. I'm done. I'm done wasting some time.

[Andrea]

It was super funny because he actually wasn't the fraud investigator when I met him. He was retired. He'd had a successful career in finance. And ironically, after he figured out who I was, American Greed did an episode on the Mormon Madoff, who was my ex husband. He goes, oh my gosh, I totally watched that show. And I said, oh, you just didn't know the woman on that show was gonna end up being your problem. And I love him because he knew he was the first person in 11 years who understood my experience. When I told him what had happened, he's, you know, why are you divorced? Or whatever? Like, people always ask what happened? And I told him a little bit. He goes, oh, so you walked away with nothing. I'm like, yes, finally someone understands. Yes. He goes, you lost everything. Yes. And most people I found were not interested in a poverty stricken woman with four kids. He says to me, what do I care? I'm a finance guy, I've got all the money I need. I can take care of you. So.

[Hannah]

And also I would think that seeing what you did in that time for yourself and your family.

[Andrea]

Yeah. He said, well, you're gonna wanna do a 401k. I'm like, I have one. He's like, you what, as poor as you are? I said, well, yeah, I have to do, like, it's not much, but I'm trying. No. He said, wow, I'm so impressed with what you tried to achieve and did achieve on your own. He's just been my cheerleader since the moment I met him. Such a good man. And in the end, got bored of being retired and went back to work and thought, you know what? I've had my career, I've made my money. I want to do work that counts. So he interviewed to be a fraud investigator. And he came back from the interview and said, I talked about you in my job interview. I said, you did? What did you say? He said, they just asked me why I wanted the job. And I said, someone very close to me has been impacted by crime and financial fraud, and I want to make sure that that doesn't happen to anybody else on my watch. And he got the job, and that's what he's doing. He is protecting people now from financial crime. So I went from Ponzi scheme criminal to superhero fraud. Superhero fraud buster.

[Molly]

You really got such a happy ending.

[Hannah]

I am thrilled.

[Molly]

If anyone deserved it, it's you.

[Hannah]

Like, I hope that you know how amazing you are.

[Molly]

Yeah, it's just incredible. And I wanted to ask if you have advice for women who might find themselves right now in a position where they have children. They had to leave their partner for some reason, and they were the ones that made the money, and now they have to just start over. Start over. What's your advice for them?

[Andrea]

Oh, well, don't give up. I think you have to expect it's going to be hard, but I really. I think it helped me develop the skill of getting around brick walls. Like, I do not take no for an answer. If I hear no, then I figure out another way and I try that. I think you have to be creative. I think you have to network, rely on people, reach out to people, ask questions, seek advice, learn, be humble. I will tell you, reentering the workforce at, like, 43 years old was humiliating. And talk about imposter syndrome. When I left the workforce, they didn't even. The Internet didn't exist. And I come back and there's an Internet and all kinds of platforms and things, and I knew I was going to look so dumb, but I had the courage to ask questions. I'd be sitting in meetings and go, My boss is 25. I'm 43 and dumb. I might as well ask the question. And every time I've had people go, I'm so glad you dared ask that. We didn't know what the answer was either, so I just tried to learn. So I think growth, mindset is the key. You have to recognize that where you're at is permanent and keep stepping forward, take a step, press forward every day. And I think you, for me, faith, you know, believing in a higher power, for me, it's God. But whatever you put your faith in, that helped me also get out of bed every day and turn to other people, network and continuously try to learn and become better. And if I've learned anything, it's that the growth happens in the adventure zone, not the danger zone and not the comfort zone. The adventure zone. And I think you've just got to look at it that way and have patience, time. Patience, Patience with yourself and just keep trying and it will work out. And of course, if you can be creative and figure out ways around all the nos, that'll help too.

[Hannah]

Yeah. Sometimes mindset, I've said, like, at least we're not bored, which you can't always say, but sometimes that's all you have.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Andrea]

I just keep telling myself having to work and learn all this new stuff hopefully is keeping me young because I'm getting old.

[Hannah]

I was going. I mean, I think it's working. You are so lively and you seem so wonderful, and I kind of can't believe that you have, like, four adult children.

[Molly]

It's amazing. And they have such an amazing mom. And I just. I'm, like, fangirling over you.

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Molly]

No, I know that we already talked, but hearing the more details of it, I just. You are so incredible. And I think a lot of women will take a lot of courage from this story and be able to leave their situations, hopefully. Because you are a representation of the fact that you can do it.

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Molly]

That you're not ever stuck, you know?

[Andrea]

Yeah. You are too kind. But I promise you, if I can do it, anyone can. So please. Yeah. I think we're here to be happy, and we need to do what we need to do to be happy.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

And we deserve it.

[Andrea]

Don't ignore those red flags. Just keep going. If you're not happy, it's not the end yet. Because I really think we can be happy despite our hardship. We just have to. You know, for me, it was a long, hard slog, and it might be for other people, but in the end, it will be much better than you imagine it could be.

[Molly]

And you have platforms that they can find you on that our audience can find you on. Right. If they want to Follow your story more.

[Andrea]

Yes, absolutely. My TikTok is at Andrea Merriman, and my Instagram is at. And andreamaran.

[Hannah]

We'll put it in the.

[Molly]

Yeah, we'll put it in the show notes. Okay, everyone go follow her there. Thank you.

[Hannah]

Oh, thank you so much.

[Molly]

By the end. Yeah, you go first.

[Hannah]

No, I just am, like. As much as this was horrible, my biggest takeaway is her resilience and her strength, and I think a lot of people will relate to that. And luckily, this is an episode where we can give you her Instagram. She shares a lot of inspirational content. She speaks publicly about what happened to her. So what's her Instagram? I said that without happening in front of me.

[Molly]

Andrea Merriman. And it'll be in the show notes. Yeah. She is amazing. Iconic, incredible. And I think the. One of the biggest things that I learned is just how being a mom can make you so resilient because you have to be for these little people. I don't think I could have done that, what she did.

[Hannah]

Mom to two bunnies.

[Molly]

That's true. It's still amazing, but it's just incredible, like, to just wake up one day in your whole life to be turned upside down. And, I mean, I can't imagine if.

[Hannah]

Anybody has a parent or guardian who has done something like this, stepped up in a time where you're like, you maybe got older and looked back and are like, whoa, I don't know how they did that. It's a good time to call them.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

Like, if anything, this makes you want to just show appreciation for the work that people put in to kind of mask what they're going through for you. Yeah, she's amazing. But, you know, motherhood was also a huge factor in why she didn't know this was going on. And to be clear, which I hope was already clarified, not her fault, and not her fault that she didn't know. I think that people doing this are very, very good at what they do. And a lot of us, especially him.

[Molly]

He was literally a professional.

[Hannah]

So, so good. And from the very beginning, people thought he was charismatic, smart, charming. And also, she came from a community and a culture that got married young. And a lot of you wrote to us about your experience in the Mormon religion or any religion where that's kind of part of the culture.

[Molly]

It's also part of the culture that. That the gender roles are still more. I don't want to say strict, because I'm sure that there is a lot of Mormons that don't fall into Those gender roles, but I think when do they're traditional, it's. Yeah, it's not abnormal for the husband to go to work, the wife to stay home with the kids and not be involved in the finances. And I think that can be a really dangerous situation.

[Hannah]

I agree. And I think that's where I, I get frustrated when people think very black and white in terms of feminism and traditional gender roles. Because at least for me, my belief is not that that's bad. Like, I think if you want a traditional dynamic, yes, girl do it or boy, do it. Like, whatever works for you, works for you. As long as you don't let those roles limit your independence and freedom and ability to maybe change, to have autonomy and empowerment. And also that you're not judging other people for making a different choice than you. But that's a whole other story. But in this case, it's like if you are somebod that wants a traditional role, it's still important nowadays to take interest in what else is going on and not be with someone who tells you you're not allowed to. Like, you can't use those roles to limit your involvement in finances. I just think that's so dangerous.

[Molly]

Yeah, yeah. I think we have to know what's going on. If you're a stay at home mom, a stay at home wife slayer.

[Hannah]

Love that for you, but get your fuck you fund.

[Molly]

Get your fuck you fund. And I really think that domestic labor is labor and I think that you should be paid for your labor. Like, I'm not kidding. I think that if you are working in the home, she said she got like a $3,000 a month allowance to buy things for the house. I think that you should be paid. I think that you should get a salary for an account. I'm not kidding. Like, I think, yeah, like you're doing labor and you deserve to have a bank account. Because she did labor for decades. Like she was working in the home every single day just for her life to fall apart and she was left with nothing.

[Hannah]

And that's also where the thing I'm asking of us to add involvement in finances and budgeting and your partner's work. I know it's asking a lot because what she was doing is a full time job and then some. Like, you are raising four people and keeping a life and a house together and supporting your husband and supporting your community. Like, whatever it is that you're doing, I know it's a lot to be like. And also you really got to stay on top of what your partner's supposed to be responsible for. And I wish that wasn't. I wish it was easier to just trust.

[Molly]

Yeah. I mean, I think the other option is to not be involved in the finances but have a backup plan if shit hits the fan. Like have a fuck you fund for yourself. Be in a position where even if your spouse's finances crumbled, you would be okay. Which is not an easy ask. Like most of us do not have extra money, especially with children, to be like putting into an extra fund. And I don't really know the answer to that. There's other podcasts that you can listen to where they might give you more tips on help. Yeah.

[Hannah]

But I think if anybody has thoughts, I would love to talk more about that and talk to more experts about that because it's true. It is a, it is a self defense weapon to be financially autonomous.

[Molly]

And we've talked to so many people who have not been able to get out of really horrible situations because they financially were not able to get out. And I don't really know what we do to not have women be in that situation. But financial. I think it's good to start the conversation about it. Like how do we. Because to be in an abusive situation, I mean I. This was not that situation. But that is what it is. A lot of the time you're being like actively abused and you can't leave because you don't have the funds to leave. I just, we have to find a way to help women out of that. And I don't know where that starts. But what are the podcasts that you recommend for that?

[Hannah]

I like her first 100k and I also like money for couples. It's not, it's in this family. It's. It's about finances as a couple and how to navigate it together. Yeah. It's not as much like how to protect yourself from a potential Ponzi scheme. But you know, this was a crazy situation.

[Molly]

So I don't really know how you protect yourself from that because even if she did have money from him, that would have been tied up in court anyways. But it just makes you think about all the situations that could happen and how you can protect yourself and your family.

[Hannah]

But let's, if you don't mind, let's go back to the beginning of their marriage. Because there are a couple things. Obviously we talked a little bit at the end of part one, but like some things that came up that again, not her fault, but we can think about and learn from. I thought about in thinking about how Being a wife is a job or being a stay at home, parent or partner is a job. I wrote down, like, when you get married, you have nothing else to go off of. And it's like, like, think about your first job ever. At least for me, I didn't know what I was doing. I also accepted treatment that I didn't deserve because I didn't know any better. I had never had another job. I simply could not compare. I did not know what a workplace was. And I was like, wait, marriage is kind of like that. You do not have another marriage other than maybe the model of your parents or whatever marriages you saw, which is why those are so influential. But I was just thinking about how she went into that, especially very young. And if somebody tells you this is how it is and that's. It's very hard to know that it's not. You don't know what you don't know.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

And I just was comparing those two things and it makes it complicated. Obviously an argument for taking your time. That doesn't always work. But I do think slowing down is like my number one piece of dating detectives advice.

[Molly]

I'm a strong advocate for not getting married before you're 25 when you're.

[Hannah]

Because your frontal lobe is not developed.

[Molly]

I just think sometimes you can get married at 19 and be in love for the rest of your life. And it's. But like, you can wait and it'll still be the love of your life. If it's gonna work. It'll work when you're a little bit older too. I just think that you can wait to do the marriage thing because there are people at 22 that I could have married. And I look back now and know that that would not have been my.

[Hannah]

Husband you're talking about.

[Molly]

That would not have been a good idea. That would not have been a good idea.

[Hannah]

So no. And we all have those people.

[Molly]

Yes.

[Hannah]

Look back and go, whew, thank goodness.

[Molly]

It's just that once you're married, it's like, obviously much more complicated.

[Hannah]

I mean, he. Yeah, he was good at what he did. The engagement was very narcissistic. Or he's like, yeah, you're gonna say yes. And she has come to terms with the fact that narcissists do not change. And it's interesting that they kind of made it a joke. Joke among their family. Yeah. They're like, oh, he's self centered. Oh, he's. That goes to show that we do accept that behavior in a lot of environments, because what else are we going to do. First of all, especially in, like, the workplace, I think people. They say people with narcissistic personalities do very well in a lot of workplaces because not only are they charismatic, but they come across as very confident. Like, the way he looked at that engagement, he would look at a business deal and be like, no, it's going to work.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

And. And when you hear that enough times and you see someone acting like that, you're like, okay, I guess I trust them. And I also pick my battles. I don't want to fight this person because they're kind of. I don't know how I feel. Like it's. You know what I mean? There's that line.

[Molly]

Yeah. And narcissists are also, like, very good at acting normal. Like, the way that she was like, oh, it's always about him. But it's not like he was horrible to be around or, like, selfish in their marriage. He would buy her gifts. He would take her out to dinner. Like, I don't think narcissism always takes the shape that we think it's going to. I mean, there's different kinds of narcissists, many different kinds. Covert narcissism is one that does not look the way that we think narcissism necessarily looks. So it's really hard to catch. But I found the part of the episode so interesting where the therapist said, he's not ever gonna change. And you need to know that, like.

[Hannah]

Yeah, this is not for your kids. For you.

[Molly]

Yeah. Because I think that he did change. Change. Like, he adapted his behavior at the beginning of their marriage. It wasn't as good. And then he kind of, like, was very smart and figured out what he had to do to keep her happy.

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Molly]

Without really changing himself.

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Molly]

And that's what he did for decades.

[Hannah]

Yeah. And there are tools. If there are people in your life who are narcissists that are not going anywhere, maybe a family member, maybe, who knows? And you've chosen to keep them in your life. There are tools to better navigate that, which we encourage you to go to therapy or look up some resources about that, because.

[Molly]

Yes, definitely therapy. But if that.

[Hannah]

Once you see it, you see it everywhere.

[Molly]

Yes. And Dr. Romney book is really good for that, too. What is it called again?

[Hannah]

It's not you.

[Molly]

It's not you. And we have.

[Hannah]

It's a past Book club. Book.

[Molly]

Yeah, we did it for book club. And we. We had her on to talk to us, and she gave some really insightful advice on that call. So if you join Patreon you can still watch that video that she came in and spoke to the book club people.

[Hannah]

She was. I was fangirling.

[Molly]

She's amazing.

[Hannah]

Also fangirling over Andrea and her forgiveness.

[Molly]

I know I'm a bad person.

[Hannah]

I think all of us pro. I. I would think the majority of us hear that and go, how the hell do you forgive someone?

[Andrea]

I don't know.

[Molly]

And what. What did she say? She said, I try not to pass judgment. At one point. It's like, cool. That's awesome.

[Hannah]

That's amazing.

[Molly]

Brilliant. And it's good for her. Like, it's good for you to not hold resentment for people, but it's a skill I am still working on.

[Hannah]

Well, I think the thing that I've connected with people are like, forgive and forget. But, no, I think you can forgive and not forget. And I think that's something that allows you to have a little more peace with it, where it's like, you can release the part of you that is angry while still learning from the experience and not messing with them or trusting them again.

[Molly]

Yeah. That kind of seems like what she's done. Like, she doesn't have a relationship with him, but she's not angry with him every day. And that's only. Can help you to let go of that anger.

[Hannah]

And the way she's prioritizing her kids, whether or not they want a relationship with him, she knows that that's their father and that she wanted. Oh, my God. The fact that they, like, kept living together immediately after, I cannot, like, how.

[Molly]

Did she do that?

[Hannah]

But also, I can't imagine what you would do. Like, do you kick someone out? Do you not? Like, No. I think it was the right choice.

[Molly]

For her kids, but I don't know how she handled that.

[Hannah]

Like, people are amazing.

[Molly]

I really think motherhood makes you, like, a superhero. Like, something other than human, because I don't think I could do that. But I do think, like, if I had a human baby that was mine, maybe I could.

[Hannah]

You could do anything.

[Molly]

But, like, yeah, moms are amazing. Moms are so incredible.

[Hannah]

Moms are the best thing. We have also to do it. This is the part that is not common among these stories. To have media outside your house.

[Molly]

Oh, my God.

[Hannah]

And to have paparazzi harassing your children.

[Molly]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Hannah]

That's insane, and that's devastating. And I really also comes timely because Justin Bieber is recently going viral for his rant against paparazzi. Have you seen this?

[Molly]

No, I haven't.

[Hannah]

Oh, go watch it. And it. He is in on the joke, because he's kind of funny in it. He's like, what's not clocking for you? I'm standing on business. I'm a f. I'm a husband. I'm a dad. And then he's like. And I'm at the beach and people are just remixing it because he sounds like. So, like, you know. Yeah, that way.

[Molly]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Hannah]

But I'm like. But he has Justin points.

[Andrea]

Yeah.

[Molly]

Justin stated.

[Hannah]

I'm a husband, I'm a dad.

[Mackenzie]

I'm at the beach.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

Get out of my way.

[Molly]

Yeah. Paparazzi. Yeah. I'm anti paparazzi for sure.

[Hannah]

Strongly. Strongly.

[Molly]

I also just think it's. We all need to take a step back and think about how we speak about people that we see in media.

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Molly]

And not necessarily in your home with your girlfriends. In the group chat. You can speak. They're never gonna see that you can talk about them. Like, even with people that come on the show. Talk about it privately, that's fine. But the things that we say online about people can have real impact. And I've been thinking about this a lot with Love Island. Are you watching Love Island Us right now?

[Hannah]

I know I have not, but I know about Huda and I know the drama.

[Molly]

Yes. Okay, so Love Island Us right now, there's a woman on the show named Huda.

[Hannah]

She is actually interested in your point of view on it, if you care to share.

[Molly]

Yeah, I. Oh, do I care to share? I've got opinion.

[Hannah]

If you don't care about.

[Molly]

Yeah, but, like, I know a lot of you guys are reality TV watchers. So Huda is on the show. She was with a man, and I think there was a lot of love bombing on both sides of their relationship. They were together for, like, six days, and we're talking about moving in together. And yikes. We don't see all their conversations. So I don't really know, like, if the love bombing was coming from him, from both of them. But I think that what I could see is that she really deeply cared about him. And I don't believe that he necessarily deeply cared about her, because at the end of it, he was like, very. The relationship ended, and he was very nonchalant, and she kind of freaked the fuck out. And I think that we need to stop casting people with mental health problems in reality shows because we're setting people up to have mental breakdowns, which I.

[Hannah]

Well, I also. And you might know about this, but I know from a friend in casting that they, like, don't cast anyone who's on mental health medication.

[Molly]

But that doesn't mean they don't need it.

[Hannah]

Yeah, but that doesn't mean they don't need it. They just want. But I think there is, like, a double side of that where they're like, oh, we don't want people who are mental health problem, but they're also like. But we also don't want people who are handling their mental health.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

It's like we want people that are unhinged, unmedicated.

[Molly]

Yeah, exactly.

[Andrea]

Yeah.

[Molly]

Yeah. So.

[Hannah]

Which is a whole thing.

[Molly]

She, like, crashed out, lost it on tv and the Internet really came for her. And regardless of if you think her crash out was for good reason, she is a person. She is a human being, and she's gonna come out of Love island and see all this commentary on her. And three people from Love island have killed themselves.

[Hannah]

I was just gonna say three past contestants have killed themselves.

[Molly]

Yes. And I just think that we have to. Regardless of what you think about the situation or any situation about a. About someone that's in the public eye, think really hard before you post about it about how that could affect them. Because I know that most people do not want to bully somebody, but that you see these people as not real. Because you're watching them on your TV screen, you're watching them on the news, like in Andrea's situation, and you feel like you can have some kind of commentary on what's going on, but that's a real person with a real life, and your words could really push them to do something dangerous. So I just think that, like, it doesn't really matter if Huda was in the right or in the wrong. Let's just think about what we're saying to these people, because the idea that they're not reading our commentary online is, like, so disconnected from reality, and your words can have real impact on people.

[Hannah]

So also, the idea that somebody is a famous person, so they deserve, like, they're asking for it. No, no, no. Because even if they went on a reality show, one, people, like, change their minds all the time. So we have to have grace for that. But also, it's still, like basic human decency not to bully people.

[Molly]

Talk about it in your group chat. Like, if you hate, talk about it in your group chat. Like, you don't need to love her, but you also don't need to cyberbully her.

[Hannah]

You can also talk about people's actions in a way that is not tearing down their personhood.

[Molly]

Yeah. I also think there's a big difference between Someone who's famous and making money from their fame. Like, not that they deserve to be stalked and I am against paparazzi and all of that, but then it's different when it's somebody who's on a reality show. Like, they do not have as much power as a celebrity.

[Hannah]

True. They're totally not. They don't even know what you're seeing.

[Molly]

Exactly. And then there's another level, which is somebody like Andrea, who did nothing wrong. Her husband did. And now there's news outside her house, and there's comments online, and there's people breaking in and harassing her children. It's like she said something in this episode that we do these little actions not thinking that they're going to have big impacts. But someone broke into her house, and her son slept on her floor until he was 14 because he was so afraid. So just think about the ripples of trauma that you can create by the words that you say, the actions that you do, because your words and your actions do not come without repercussion.

[Hannah]

And if you take anything away, apply that. Especially when there are children involved.

[Molly]

Yes, absolutely.

[Hannah]

Because they are always innocent.

[Molly]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Hannah]

There's so much that she went through, and that's so much of why I'm inspired by her and why I was thinking about how she said part of getting through it was just trying to accomplish one thing every day.

[Molly]

Yes.

[Hannah]

And the world has been a lot. It's not the same as what she went through, but that alone has been helpful. Just that idea of, like, guys, we just can get through it one little accomplishment at a time, and that can be very small.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

And to hear her being able to do that, I hope, leaves you with a little bit of hope and inspiration that you can get through stuff. And then also, I hope that you go down a rabbit hole of learning about Ponzi schemes, because I sure did.

[Molly]

So crazy.

[Hannah]

I learned about Ponzi himself, the Italian con artist who now goes down in history as. As that he had a scam named after him.

[Molly]

It's so, like, simple. It's such a simple con, you know, it's like. Yeah, that makes sense.

[Hannah]

Right? And then. And it also is so clear that if it goes well, the bigger it gets, the harder it is.

[Molly]

Yes. At one point.

[Hannah]

And that feels like a thing that you have to know if you're going to. If you're going to try this. You just know that when you do it, well, you get caught.

[Molly]

Yeah. Because at one point, it demands that you keep having new clients. And at One point. It's like, if that many people are involved, it's gonna come crumbling down.

[Hannah]

I think it would be interesting maybe on Patreon to do an episode. I was kind of looking up like red flags for scams like that and like, ways when you're investing your own money to look out for that kind of thing.

[Molly]

Somebody like, she had no idea what was happening and maybe there were signs in their finances that she would be. Been able to pick out if she knew.

[Hannah]

But also like, I'm not an expert and not a finance expert.

[Molly]

His accountant didn't know, his employee didn't know. So, like, probably not.

[Hannah]

He was good.

[Molly]

He was.

[Hannah]

He was good at it.

[Molly]

Very good at it.

[Hannah]

I know we don't want to ramble for too long. I just. One more thing. I won't go long on it. She talked about women returning to the workforce later in life and I loved that part too. Because if you are going through a divorce or just changing your career, her talking about how like, you know, it's a pride hit sometimes to be like, oh, I'm getting into the workforce alongside recent college grads, but I look at a woman like that or a person like that with such respect and so much admiration. And if anyone doesn't and is judgmental of that, it's just another case of like, they don't know your story and they don't realize they're too young to realize how lucky they are to have you.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

And to have your experience and your experience as a stay at home parent or as a resilient person who went through a fucking Ponzi scam is very valuable.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

It's probably more valuable than a lot of things on their resume.

[Molly]

Yeah. And I would love if you are a person who had to enter the workforce at an older age again and be the same level as people much younger than you and maybe even have people much younger than you be your boss. I'd love to hear what that was like for you and what advice you might have for other women in that situation. Because that is what a lot of women have to do to get out of dangerous situations. And, you know, anything we can do to help support those people, I would like to do. Because I encourage women to look into financial feminism because it's self defense. Yes. And.

[Hannah]

And it's just autonomy and it's badass and it's great.

[Molly]

Finances were kept from women for thousands of years to keep us submissive. Women could not get credit cards. Women could not open bank accounts. Yes. Women could not start Businesses. And now we can do those things. So let's do everything in our power to make sure that we are keeping ourselves safe and not. Because now the thing that's making it so we are not in control of our finances are the social implications and that socially, women are still being kept out of that, but we don't have to be. And so fight your way into those conversations.

[Hannah]

I don't have the stats off the top of my head, but look into also the fact that when more women are succeeding, it does not threaten men in business. It does not threaten other people. It actually raises success for businesses and everyone they're working with.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

So if anybody comes at you and is like, well, this is a zero sum situation. It's actually not. And it's actually better for everybody.

[Molly]

Yes. And I just want to reiterate, that's not to say that women cannot be stay at home moms, stay at home wives, Domestic labor is labor. But I think we do, unfortunately have to just educate ourselves on finances, know what's going on to protect ourselves. You do not have to have a job to be financially competent in your household.

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Molly]

But I do think it's important that we spend some real time thinking and learning about finances to keep ourselves protected. Yay. Yay.

[Hannah]

Please name that TV show. If anyone knows what I'm quoting. Money, please.

[Molly]

I don't know. What is that?

[Hannah]

Well, they'll know it.

[Molly]

Okay, let us know.

[Hannah]

They'll tell us. Okay, let us know your questions.

[Andrea]

Follow.

[Hannah]

Andrea, send us your thoughts. I know there's a lot in this story that we probably didn't hit on, so I'd love to hear more from you. And Mackenzie will be back. But, Molly, thank you for joining me. We love having you. Thank you for so much join episodes.

[Molly]

I had so much fun.

[Hannah]

You killed it.

[Molly]

Thanks.

[Hannah]

With your sultry voice.

[Molly]

It's a little bit more raspberry voice.

[Hannah]

Oh, yeah.

[Molly]

I was singing at the bar last night, so. Oh.

[Hannah]

Oh, goodbye, Earl. That's your go to.

[Molly]

That is my. That's my go to karaoke song.

[Hannah]

So did you. You. Yes.

[Molly]

No, that's. Well, I wasn't doing karaoke last night, so I was just.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, you were just.

[Molly]

I was just singing collectively. Yeah.

[Hannah]

Okay, cool.

[Molly]

Respect as a choir, if you will. A chorus.

[Hannah]

That's how I'm going to think of being at a bar or a club. Oh, it's just the dance trick troop in the choir.

[Molly]

Yes.

[Hannah]

Thanks, guys. We love you. We'll talk to you next week. And as always, trust your intuition. Sam.