Decades of Deception: Part 2

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Dating Detectives - "Decades of Deception: Part 2"

Introduction

In the gripping second installment of "Decades of Deception," hosts Mackenzie Fultz and Rob delve deeper into the harrowing story of Phyllis, a manipulative stepmother who systematically defrauded her family for over two decades. Joined by family members Laura and Jacob, the episode uncovers the extent of Phyllis's deceit, the emotional toll on the family, and the ongoing struggle to reclaim trust and financial stability.

Recap of Part One

Mackenzie provides a brief refresher for listeners who may have missed the first part. She outlines the initial suspicions surrounding Phyllis, who displayed questionable behavior from the outset. Notably, Phyllis had a history of embezzlement, admitting to unauthorized use of her company credit card and serving probation for her actions. Her lies extended to selling the family's property without their knowledge and fabricating essential documents to maintain control over the family's finances.

Unraveling the Deception

The episode shifts focus to the siblings, Laura and Jacob, who reveal the depth of Phyllis's manipulation:

• Family Betrayal: Phyllis deceived her husband, leading him to believe he owned their home when, in reality, she had sold it and returned the family to renting. This betrayal left him with minimal savings after years of Phyllis's financial exploitation.

  "She was fraudulating the documents, bank statements... she was making bank statements every month, sending them to him." ([02:33])

• Life Insurance Scam: Jacob uncovers that Phyllis exploited her brother's life insurance policy by falsely claiming sole beneficiary status, thereby disadvantaging her sister-in-law during a time of grief.

  "I have a letter from the life insurance company... she kind of was rude to her and she was like, 'I'm no country bumpkin... if you don't give me half, I'm going to drag this out in court.'" ([04:10])

• Financial Strain on the Sister-in-Law: Laura shares how Phyllis took half of a modest $10,000 policy, insufficient to cover funeral expenses, despite her claims of generosity.

  "She told my dad that she was left the entire amount, and she was so kind and generous that she gave half to his widow, which was so not the truth." ([06:23])

Confronting the Lies

Determined to seek the truth, Laura and Jacob arrange a confrontational meeting with Phyllis in 2020:

• Recorded Confrontation: Understanding Texas's recording laws, they record a one-hour session where Phyllis partially admits to her fraudulent activities but quickly retracts when she senses their unwavering resolve.

  "She admits to some of the fabrications, the forgeries, and the thefts, but there are some things that she still denies." ([12:02])

• Emotional Fallout: The confrontation leads to familial estrangement, with Laura and Jacob feeling their efforts are in vain as their father remains emotionally dependent on Phyllis despite mounting evidence of her deceit.

  "He can't even step foot on the property anymore... This is all about a relationship with you." ([18:38])

Ongoing Struggles and Legal Battles

The family's battle against Phyllis's manipulation continues:

• Escalation of Conflict: Laura describes a tense interaction where Phyllis's son aggressively confronts Jacob, leading to heightened tensions and further distancing from their father.

  "You need to leave my effing family's name out of your mouth." ([49:22])

• Financial Exploitation: The siblings reveal they have meticulously tallied over a million dollars stolen from their father over 27 years, highlighting the pervasive nature of Phyllis's schemes.

  "We took it and multiplied it over 20 something years, and it was well over a million dollars." ([53:45])

• Legal Measures: They discuss consulting lawyers to enforce financial restitution and protect their father's assets, though the process is emotionally draining and fraught with challenges.

  "In Dad's divorce decree, there's a $150,000 promise note, plus a whole bunch of interest, so that will be executable against her estate someday." ([69:10])

Emotional and Psychological Impact

The episode delves into the emotional turmoil experienced by Laura and Jacob:

• Feelings of Betrayal and Anger: Both siblings express profound anger towards their father for his continued reliance on Phyllis, whom they view as a psychopath manipulating him into submission.

  "She is a pro, and it was... it was still lies, and it was still manipulation." ([10:38])

• Struggles with Forgiveness: Laura grapples with forgiveness, recognizing its importance for her own peace of mind while refusing to let Phyllis's actions be forgotten.

  "I have to make a effort... I'm not going away." ([37:54])

• Impact on Mental Health: The prolonged deceit has led to significant emotional stress, estrangement from their father, and a feeling of helplessness in altering the situation.

  "It's a roller coaster, and it's not a steady path. Walking through the forgiveness. It's a choice every day." ([64:23])

Community and Support

Mackenzie and Rob emphasize the importance of community support and vigilance:

• Protecting Loved Ones: They encourage listeners to stay informed about financial scams and manipulative individuals, especially within family dynamics.

  "Just don't take anything at face value. Follow up. Know what's going on in your bank accounts." ([67:22])

• Listener Engagement: The hosts invite listeners to share their experiences and support each other through similar challenges, fostering a sense of solidarity.

  "You're not alone... Trust your intuition." ([89:55])

Concluding Insights

"Decades of Deception: Part 2" serves as a poignant exploration of the complexities involved when a trusted family member becomes a long-term manipulator and fraudster. The episode underscores the challenges of uncovering deep-seated deceit, the emotional ramifications on victims, and the arduous path to seeking justice and emotional healing. Through Laura and Jacob's harrowing account, listeners are reminded of the importance of vigilance, open communication, and the need for supportive communities when confronting familial betrayal.

Key Takeaways:

1. Vigilance in Financial Matters: Regularly monitor financial statements and be skeptical of unexplained financial help or sudden changes in a family member's financial behavior.

2. Emotional Resilience: Navigating deceit within the family requires immense emotional strength and the ability to set boundaries while maintaining relationships.

3. Seeking Legal Assistance: When faced with long-term fraud, consulting legal professionals can provide avenues for restitution and protection of assets.

4. Community Support: Engaging with communities or support groups can offer the necessary emotional support and practical advice for those affected by similar situations.

Notable Quotes:

• "She was fraudulating the documents, bank statements... she was making bank statements every month, sending them to him." — Mackenzie ([02:33])

• "She told my dad that she was left the entire amount, and she was so kind and generous that she gave half to his widow, which was so not the truth." — Laura ([06:23])

• "I'm just telling the truth... Why are you mad about the truth and not the lies." — Rob ([18:28])

• "It's textbook stuff... she's a psychopath." — Mackenzie ([60:08])

• "Never spent a day in jail, not one." — Jacob ([66:39])

Conclusion

The "Decades of Deception: Part 2" episode of "The Dating Detectives" offers a deeply personal and distressing look into the ways one individual's manipulative actions can devastate a family over an extended period. Through detailed storytelling and heartfelt conversations, the podcast not only recounts the pain and betrayal experienced by Laura and Jacob but also serves as a cautionary tale about the importance of transparency, accountability, and support in safeguarding against long-term deception.

Transcript

[Mackenzie]

The following program contains names, places and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following program is provided for entertainment purposes only, and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances. If you or a loved one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic violence hotline at 1-800-799-7-7-7233 for support.

[Rob]

Hello, Happy Dating Detectives. Why do I always talk in this English accent?

[Mackenzie]

You're doing it for our fans in the uk. We love you and we're jealous of your accent.

[Rob]

I'm probably offending our friends in the uk.

[Mackenzie]

We might not have any more after this, but they. They're gonna stick around for part two because I'm sure if they listen to part one, they wanna know part two. With or without our accents.

[Rob]

Yes. And first of all, happy Dating Detectives Monday. It's a national holiday here at the Dating Detective.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, my gosh. This last episode, I'm so thrilled because I asked everyone at the end, what do you guys think is the motivation? So many theories. We are gonna talk about everything at the end of the this episode Dogfish Debrief. We've got a lot to discuss.

[Rob]

Yeah, we certainly do. So basically, freaking Phyllis. She's. She's taken this guy for a ride for years and years and years. And the kids, they finally spilled the beans and told the dad everything.

[Laura]

Divorce.

[Mackenzie]

And if you want to go back and listen, if you haven't listened to part one, go back and listen. I'll give a quick detailed refresh. Yeah. So basically, you got it like there we had two siblings on Rob and Laura, and they have a stepmom named Phyllis. The whole family was a little suspicious of Phyllis. Suspicious, Phil, Phyllis. That doesn't rhyme. But I. It was a slight.

[Rob]

I like it. We'll allow it.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah. So she had some history of like, a little bit of what? What was it? Embezzlement. She did admit that she had gotten caught using her company credit card.

[Rob]

Right.

[Mackenzie]

And was on probation for that a little bit. So she told some half truths. But then it all came out that not only was she doing some stuff at work, she had completely lied to their dad, her husband, about the fact that he thought he owned the house and the land they lived on. She had, like, sold it. They were renting it.

[Rob]

Could you imagine learning that?

[Mackenzie]

Oh, my God. And she was fraudulating the documents. Bank statements, I. Tax documents. IRS stuff. The. The deed, I think. Not the deed, whatever. The. A document from the ownership of the trailer they lived in that she just like did a fake letterhead. She was making bank statements every month, sending them to him. And he wasn't technologically savvy, so he would balance his textbooks with these statement she made on Microsoft Word for 27 years.

[Rob]

You know, that took such a long time, dude.

[Mackenzie]

So he divorces her. She's pretty much taken him for everything he has. Like he had a hundred dollars left in his bank account. We left off where Phyllis is claiming one, that she didn't do it, that she has an excuse for everything, and two, that she doesn't have money for laundry and food and groceries. So she's coming over on Sundays just to do laundry, just to make him breakfast. It's nothing to wor about kids.

[Rob]

Don't worry.

[Mackenzie]

Just helping her out. Yeah, no, she's sliding back up.

[Rob]

So. Well, let's get into part two because some of you will see that your theories were totally on point. Let's get into it. Let's finish this bad boy.

[Jacob]

She would constantly be texting him while we were there. And as soon as we left, she would be coming over to his house because we would pass her on the highway sometimes.

[Mackenzie]

Oh my gosh, that's like a movie.

[Jacob]

And that was the start of her finding a way back into our dad's life and our life as well. But before she was fully back in, there were some other things that we discovered. When we were going through all the boxes of documents, we found some weird stuff about her brother's life insurance policy and decided to do some digging into it. There was an incident about her brother. When he passed away, he had accidentally filled out his insurance wrong and put Phyllis as 100% beneficiary and his wife as 100% beneficiary. And the insurance company basically sent a letter and said, we can't give the money to both of them. So you all need to figure out how this is going to be split or what's going to happen. Well, apparently she kept this letter that she wrote to her sister in law that she basically was kind of rude to her and she was like, I'm no country bumpkin and don't underestimate me and I know what my brother wanted and if you don't give me half, I'm going to drag this out in court and.

[Mackenzie]

Okay.

[Jacob]

Threat the. We actually got in touch with the sister in law and asked her on Facebook, stuff like that. Yeah. And she, she Said that when Phyllis and my dad would go down to visit them when her brother was still alive, that she would blame all of their financial issues on us. She told them that they were paying our bills.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, my goodness. When you heard that, what did you. How'd you. How'd that feel?

[Jacob]

Oh, man. It just made us more angry.

[Laura]

And at the same time, the sister in law had called me and she was crying on the phone because she's like, she needs to be stopped. She's a monster. And she said that she did take half of the life insurance policy money, and it wasn't a lot. It was like a $10,000 policy. And of course, Phyllis said, well, I'll pay for the funeral arrangements. Well, she didn't. And so the poor sister in law was left with next to nothing. That wasn't enough to cover a funeral.

[Mackenzie]

I also wonder if he really did make a mistake or if she somehow contacted.

[Laura]

I have that paperwork too, so. Nice. Yeah, no, I have the letter from the life insurance company. I have where you can see the beneficiaries, and I have the letter. I don't know why she kept a copy of the letter, but she did. I have all that, too. But she told my dad that she was left the entire amount, and she was so kind and generous that she gave half to his widow, which was so not the truth. But dad thought she was just so generous in helping out the sister in law.

[Rob]

She's Mother Teresa.

[Laura]

She is.

[Jacob]

And then there was the thing that grandpa told us about the doctor's office that she worked at.

[Laura]

So with the doctor's office and the credit card there, my grandpa went to that doctor's office. I'm not real sure when my grandpa went to the doctor's office because he sheltered us from the information for so long that it wasn't until we were like, oh, yeah, and did you know. And oh, yeah, by the way, did you hear. Then he was like, oh, yeah, by the way. I went to the doctor's office, and this is what he said. And the doctor recognized his last name and goes, oh, oh, do you know Phyllis? And my grandpa's like, yeah. And he tells him that she did take the card and that there were fraudulent charges in different states. And he found out and he made her work for an entire year to pay back that debt. So she wasn't getting a paycheck, which is also another reason for the loans, right? Cause she had to make it look like she was getting a paycheck for a whole, entire year.

[Mackenzie]

So that's where some of it was going.

[Laura]

And one day I was driving, I was like, oh. It hit me like, she wouldn't use it more than once in a state, because if you look at a credit card statement and if it's used in. Because they went and they went to all the national parks, they went to Mount Rushmore, and then they went to Yellowstone, and then they went down to Colorado. And so if you look at a statement, it just looks like there's this weird fraud on your credit card statement, not just one person using it. So she thought it would just be reimbursed and wiped off his card because it would just be a weird fraud charge Instead of it being one single person.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, my God.

[Jacob]

And at this point, they were legally divorced. And we'd also bought back the land from Jacob Stone, so he was paying the mortgage payments on that now himself. So we tried our best to disconnect him from Phyllis in certain ways, but she was still coming over and all of that.

[Laura]

And how she managed to wiggle her way back into his life Is kind of a little unclear to us, because dad didn't want to let us know that she was doing that, because he knew it upset us. So we kind of found out by. We would go going over there, and you could open the refrigerator, and there would be leftovers of a breakfast in there, and it's definitely her cooking. You know, the way that she manipulated him was just. She's a pro, and it was, oh, that's not really what happened. I love you. And it was just a snowball, or, oh, it was just a mistake, or, oh, that didn't happen. It was still lies, and it was still manipulation. But we're not 100% sure what she said to him. And I will say that, you know, we mentioned several times that we were angry throughout this whole entire process, but that included being angry at dad, too, because we're like, how could you possibly fall for this? She's lying to you. And why aren't you done? Like, just be done. And he never was. And I really think that she made things too easy for him because she did take care of all the bills, and she did take care of his laundry, and. And she did take care of the grocery shopping and whatever he needed. You know, she prepared his meals and put the tray in front of him and then washed. Going from that to having to do it all yourself and starting over at his age is kind of a scary thought process. So she just made it too easy for her to not be in his life.

[Jacob]

Well, she told our father that she would do anything to make this right and fix things.

[Rob]

You got 200 grand?

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, exactly. That's an expensive thing to fix.

[Jacob]

And so she agreed to actually sit down and have a conversation with Laura and I about everything, because we were.

[Laura]

The bad guys who were calling her out on everything.

[Mackenzie]

Right, of course you were.

[Jacob]

So this was in 2020. Laura and I met up with Phyllis and we looked up the recording laws in the state of Texas. And as long as one party is aware of the recording, it is legal. So you know Laura.

[Mackenzie]

Yes, for you, doing your due diligence.

[Jacob]

Laura and I were aware of the recording. And so we recorded this one hour, sit down. Brought on the trembling tears, and was just like, I'm so sorry. I never meant to do any of this. And it just happened. I couldn't get out of this mess because once it started, it just kind of snowballed.

[Mackenzie]

So she's admitting it?

[Laura]

Sorta.

[Jacob]

Kinda sorta. But once she realized that we weren't reacting to her fake tears, they immediately stopped. Of course they did. Of course they did. Laura and I, we had a list of about 60 questions that we wanted.

[Laura]

To ask her and a notebook full of documents.

[Jacob]

Yeah, all the documents that we had pulled and found about what she did. We asked her about some of the rumors we'd heard when we were younger, how she had time to do all of this faking of these bank statements and. Yeah, that is documents. Job that's hard and not. And still do her work for her employer. And she basically told us that she didn't. She didn't do any work. Now, Phyllis admits to some of the fabrications, the forgeries and the thefts, but there are some things that she still denies.

[Laura]

You know, she denied taking the doctor's credit card, but the real estate company that she was working for, that she just didn't want that much responsibility. She admitted to invoicing them for work she didn't do.

[Jacob]

Yeah. And then she halfway admitted to the retirement stuff, but she said, I don't know what I did. I just checked a box.

[Mackenzie]

Okay, so she's. It is an accident is what she said.

[Jacob]

Laura. Laura had the document that the end. The letter that she signed right there and showed it to her and was like, oh, you didn't just check a box. You checked the box and you wrote a letter to make sure they did exactly what you wanted them to do.

[Laura]

The look on her face completely changed. She knew what we had, and she knew she was in trouble and she was mad.

[Rob]

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[Mackenzie]

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[Rob]

That was me this morning. My fourth little Toe. My fourth little toe was numb. And I was like, what does this mean? And I was like, for sure I have toe cancer because WebMD.

[Mackenzie]

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[Rob]

I was just talking to my mom about this because she was like, gosh, it's just so hard to find a doctor. And I was like, zocdoc?

[Mackenzie]

And it's free. I have been using zocdoc for six years. It's an app and a website that is free and you can search and compare high quality in network doctors and click to instantly book an appointment. So you put in your insurance, you put in what you're looking for. If you want to filter it by specifications, more than a hundred thousand doctors across every specialty. Mental health dentists. I found my dentist on there. I found my ob GYN on there. I found my primary care doctor on there. And they're all great, okay? I love them. And you can filter for doctors who take your insurance based on location. Also, you can see reviews. You get to rate them so you can see what people are saying. And once you find the right doctor, you can see their actual appointment openings. Choose a time slot that works for you and just instantly book it through the app. Appointments made through Zocdoc also happen really fast, typically within just 24 to 72 hours of booking. So, Mackenzie, go check out your second little toe. There's somebody out there that can help you. I know. Should we be worried, let us know. But you can find a doctor on zocdoc to help you. And it's so good. I really, really am glad that they are partnering with us because it's been really helpful for me. So stop putting off those doctor's appointments and go to Zocdoc.com TDD to find and instantly book a top rated doctor today. That's z o c-o c.com TDD zocdoc.com TDD love it.

[Jacob]

So Laura and I actually, after we were done with this recording, we took it back and played it for our father because we didn't want her to twist our words. We didn't want her to say that we were being ugly to her or, you know, But I did have to laugh because while we were in this meeting, we were at a coffee shop and this college kid actually sat down next to us and he could hear the conversation and what we were asking her and how we were talking, and he would look up at us and his eyes got really big. And then he'd look back down at his computer and start typing. And then he'd look back up. It was hilarious. He.

[Mackenzie]

It's probably like half the people listening to this story right now at their desks. That's what they look like. Yeah, that's funny.

[Jacob]

It was hilarious. We basically just told her that we would prefer that she left dad alone. That if she really loved him, that she could just up and walk away. And that's your proof that you do actually love him. And we basically just got up and walked out.

[Laura]

We didn't leave the meeting with her on Starbucks. Like, we weren't like, okay, well, all is well. We just kind of were like, bye. Because she didn't say anything we wanted to hear. She still didn't seem repentant or apologetic, really. I mean, now knowing what we knew, we could tell that she was trying to manipulate us to get herself, quote, quote, out of trouble. I guess you could say she was really trying to patch things with dad, not with us. She wanted to go back and tell dad. Well, I met with the kids, and she called him right after we left Starbucks, which we were on our way over to Dad's to play the recording for him, and she called him and she said, I think Laura's even more mad now than she was at the beginning and was already starting the narrative that we were mean to her. She was already gonna put those pieces in place, not knowing that we recorded the conversation.

[Jacob]

And we thought the recording was going to do something to convince him to not let her back in, but almost feel like he was a little indifferent to it. Cause I think he was just overwhelmed with the amount of data that we were putting in front of him that it's almost like he just glazed over. And just at that point, he was just numb to it all at that, you know, and that it just didn't resonate with him at all.

[Laura]

After we played dad the recording, though, of course he's texting, saying, why did you say this? Why did you do this? And I don't remember what she said, but of course I was just angry. And he said, well, I'll come over and explain. And I said, tell her to come home. And she wasn't going to come while we were there. And I said, if she says she loves you, if she loves you as much as she says she does, she needs to get over to this house right now. And so she did come over, and Rob and I sure did take the laptop that we had brought and hooked it up to his big screen TV and pulled up all the documents and sat right there with her and went through all of them. And she would lie about dumb stuff. Like, she told dad she never took a lunch break, but yet every day on the bank account was a charge to a fast food restaurant. Every day. Like, why lie about that? Who cares if you took lunch? It's a lunch hour. Who cares if you went and got a cheeseburger? You know, why lie about it? Yeah, but she would. But she was like, well, I just love your dad and I just want to spend time with him. And I didn't mean anything by it. I just want to be with him, and I want to do whatever it takes to be with him. And I'm like, you know, if somebody in, like, Nashville, Tennessee, had stolen dad's identity and done these things to him, would you expect him to want to meet up at a Waffle House and have breakfast with them?

[Rob]

Right.

[Mackenzie]

You'd want them in jail.

[Laura]

Exactly. And she's like, no, but I just love him and I just want to be with him.

[Mackenzie]

Bless it, she's turning it on the waterworks for him.

[Laura]

And he fell for it because my dad is very tender hearted. So when she would come and say, like, she didn't have money for food, he was like, oh, well, here you go. Here's my whole entire pantry. So at that point, dad was still kind of playing it off that she wasn't there that much, even though we knew the truth, because I think he didn't want to upset us. But we kind of got to thinking and realized that she had got to stay in the dark for 27 years or longer. And we're like, let's write a blog.

[Rob]

That's such a long time.

[Laura]

Yeah. And I was like, it's not fair that she gets to keep all this hidden. And so we were.

[Mackenzie]

Put her on blast.

[Laura]

Yeah. So we talked to dad. Rob and I were walking with dad, and I was like, hey, what do you think about us we writing a blog? And Dad's like, I don't care. Do whatever makes you feel better. So we started writing a blog, and we started publishing in June of 2020, and we were posting every day just because we were trying to get the backstory out. Because it takes so long to get. Yeah. Because there was 27 years of normal life before we had this huge unraveling in 2018. And so I'll never forget the day, because it was June 11th of 2020. I was on my way to take my son to get fitted for his letterman jacket because it was fixing to be his senior year. And my dad called, and he was like, hey, what's this website y' all have up? And I'm like, website? I'm like, oh, the blog? He was like, yeah, you don't have permission to do that. And I'm like, yeah, I do. Do you remember? And I gave him the. Told him the whole conversation, word for word. And he goes, well, I didn't know it was going to be like that. And I was like, what? I'm just telling the truth. And then I went, how'd she find it, dad? Because dad doesn't use any social media or any kind of Internet. And so then I knew that she was calling him mad and upset because she had seen the blog. And so he's like, I don't know. And he. He completely lost his ever loving mind and just started screaming at me. And he's like, well, if you don't take that blog down, you come get your effing horses. Get off my effing land. And. And he was like, it went on. I mean, and it went back and forth. And I'm not gonna lie, I wasn't nice in that moment either. And you were probably mad for him.

[Rob]

I imagine I was.

[Laura]

And I was mad that he was taking her side after all this. Are you kidding me? Like, look at what she's done. And you're gonna take her side? And so he even went as far to say he's like, I'll do whatever it takes to get rid of you. And I was like, no, no. Okay.

[Mackenzie]

She's got her claws in him.

[Rob]

Yeah, she does.

[Jacob]

Well, he called me.

[Laura]

Yeah.

[Jacob]

Yeah, he called me and told me that. He's like, what's this insta thing? Y' all got up And. And when he said insta thing, I realized she was following me on Instagram, and that's how she got a hold of the blog. And so he basically. He was like, you're not letting me live my life. Y' all don't have permission to do the blog. And I said, well, if you're kicking me out of your life, I don't need your permission. This is our story, too. And so I'm not taking it down. And he's like, well, then I just don't want to ever see you again. I was in pure anger at that point. How can you be more angry at us for writing the blog and telling the truth than you are at her for what she's done to you and what she's done to you for your entire life. She's lied to you and. And you're okay with that, but we're telling the truth on. On a blog, and you're mad about the truth and not the lies.

[Rob]

Oh, my God.

[Laura]

So it got so bad that I did have to have the police come and help escort me to get all my horses. We had a tack building, which is a storage building.

[Rob]

No, you really had to.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, God.

[Rob]

I thought I was talking crap. I was hoping he was talking crap.

[Laura]

It really set a whole bunch of things in motion for me. That was really hard. Like, I lived in the city. I had to sell my house. I ended up having to be homeless and living with friends for a while until we could. Until we could find a place to put our horses. It was really bad. And we tried to communicate with dad still, and he would text us occasionally, like, you know, at Christmas time or whatever, and we would respond, but it would go green. So you knew we were blocked, right? And we even tested out the theory, and Rob blocked me, and he would text me, and I would get it, and then I would respond, and it would. It wouldn't go through. So we knew for a fact that we were blocked. When he said that in that moment, with as angry as he was, it wasn't a surprise that he said that. But usually he backs off of it. You know, he'll blow up, say stuff that he regrets, and then back off of it pretty quickly. But for him to completely block us, and after that moment is when he blocked us for that year. So we were like, wow, he's really mad at this. And then it is hurt. And then it still. Still that roller coaster of, you know what? Well, he can have it go. Let him live his life. You know, he made his bed. Let him lay in it. And then it's like, but he's still being lied to and probably stolen from. And we weren't really sure if, you know, he was safe, what lengths she.

[Jacob]

Would go to, and what other lies is she telling him about us possibly, you know, that's keeping him mad at us.

[Laura]

So he blocked us. In June of 2020, he missed my whole son's entire senior year. So In May of 2021, he called me at work, and it was on my work phone, so not my cell phone. He called my work phone, and he was like, hey, just thought I'd let you know I've had a heart attack.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, my goodness.

[Laura]

And I was like, are you okay? You know, what's going on, dad? And he's like, I'm fine. It was minor. They caught it on a stress test. I didn't even know what happened. But I do have to have an angiogram. So we're like, okay, well, what do you need? But it's funny how that happened, because it was two weeks before that I had had a conversation with my husband and Rob, and I was like, you know what? I think I'm going to try and patch things up with dad, because do you know who the only person who's happy in this whole entire situation is? Phyllis.

[Mackenzie]

Phyllis.

[Rob]

Phyllis.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah. She won right now.

[Laura]

And I was like, so I'm fixing to show up. I'm gonna fake it. We're going to invite him to dinner. I am going to pretend to be the happiest family member you ever saw. And then two weeks later, dad called me. So while he was on the phone with me, and I was genuinely concerned about his health, I was like, well, while I have you on the phone, would you be interested in fixing this? And he kind of got emotional, and he was like, yeah. He's like, I miss y'. All. I miss the kids, you know? Yeah. I was like, okay, well, then I'm so glad. I was like, can you unblock us? He goes, I don't have you blocked.

[Rob]

No, Phyllis.

[Laura]

I said, dad, you do have us blocked. I said, every time you texted us over the last year, we've responded, and we know that it was blocked. And he goes, I don't have you blocked. He goes, oh. He goes, well, I did get a new phone, so maybe something happened in the setup process.

[Mackenzie]

Let me guess. Did Phyllis set it up?

[Laura]

You know, she did.

[Jacob]

He did.

[Laura]

So for an entire year, he thought that we had cut him out of our lives, and he had us blocked, and so we thought that he didn't want to talk to us for an entire year.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, that's heartbreaking.

[Jacob]

For a year?

[Rob]

Dude, no.

[Laura]

Oh, my God.

[Jacob]

It really struggled around holidays and his birthday, and it was hard.

[Laura]

Well, and it was my son's senior year.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah. Like, obviously, there's now some. You reframe what that year looks like, but it feels like damage is done, though, right?

[Laura]

That was a really, really hard year for me. It was really bad because we did have to sell our house so that we could find land to put our horses, and I ended up technically being homeless. I mean, we lived with friends for seven months until we could figure out what we were doing. And it was a long, long story. That was my son's senior year, and he was doing the high school rodeo, and he missed out on all those. And I know how much time. Dad loves the rodeos, and we lost a really close family member during that time, and it was a really bad year. And so finding out that she was probably the one who did it when she set up the phone. Anger's not the right word, but it never even clicked in his brain that she blocked us on his phone, because, again, I don't think he knows that she could do that, because that knowledge is just not there of what these phones can do or anything like that. Or that in the setup process that she would be malicious enough to block us. That's just not anywhere in his brain. He missed all of my daughter's stuff. You know, she's a dancer, and Rob's kids were littler than mine, so. And we'd all been close before this. You know, he would go to dance competitions, and he would go to high school football games, and he would go to birthday parties, and. And then all of that stopped. So the kids did get hurt in this process, too, which is hard. But even in all of this, like, Rob and I were furious, but we couldn't voice that to him because he was so brainwashed that, you know, there's no way she could do. Be that ugly to him.

[Rob]

You know, like, there's no way that's possible.

[Laura]

All she's ever done was love him and take care of him. And we are being accusatory and we're being bitter because there's no way she could ever do all that.

[Rob]

Wow.

[Mackenzie]

We both feel like it's too hard to eat healthy and cook. We don't like it. I buy too many ingredients. They go bad. I don't know how to follow recipes because the blogs take too long to get to the recipe. They just tell a story about their grandma, and I'm like, just give me the recipe.

[Rob]

I. I have too much ADHD for that.

[Mackenzie]

And I love Green Chef because it makes it easy to spend less time in the kitchen and more time enjoying your summer. And all the meals are so good. They have new heat and eat meals which are delicious, wholesome meals that you can enjoy in just three minutes.

[Rob]

That's for the lazy girls like me.

[Mackenzie]

Hear, hear. And then you can also cater it to your. Get it cater. Cater it to your wellness journey. If you want keto, if you want a Mediterranean diet, whatever. The recipes are so good, and they always feature fresh, organic, and seasonal produce. And 100% responsibly sourced proteins to help you feel your best. I recently made the Moroccan chicken and kale quinoa bowl.

[Rob]

I actually really like quinoa.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, quinoa is really good. Quinoa gets flack and I don't know why.

[Rob]

I don't know why. And I want to mention also that the you know how if you need an ingredient, you have to go to the store and buy like a whole jar of it, but it's.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Rob]

And then it goes like one tablespoon. They send you the measured ingredients.

[Mackenzie]

So easy, so easy. And they're real clean ingredients and they help you build lasting, healthy habits without the hassle. They have salads that can be ready in just five minutes. They have breakfasts filled with protein. They have nutrient rich smoothies. Truly, you should just go on and look at their like 80 plus dietitian approved weekly meal options. See what you like. Pick whatever you want. Gluten free, plant based, protein heavy, even gut and brain health. They've got a lot of options. So also the recipes change every week so you don't have to be bored and eat the same thing every single week.

[Rob]

And they have stuff that your kids will like too. I'm telling you.

[Mackenzie]

Ooh, Ryan endorsed. We use this. You should too. It's really, really good. So make this summer your healthiest yet with Green chef. Head to greenchef.com 50datingdetectives and use code 50dating detectives to get 50% off your first month. Then 20% off for two months with free shipping. That's code 50dating [e-mail] 50dating detectives. Okay, listen, how many times do you go to your bank account and are like, what? I spend how much on eats?

[Rob]

Oh my God, I'm so guilty of that.

[Mackenzie]

I spent how much on that delivery? Oh, who did that? Who did that?

[Rob]

It's always, it's always a surprise.

[Mackenzie]

We all know that it can be messy and confusing to budget and it takes a lot of time. So it's really nice to have something like Monarch to help you learn those fun little surprises about your own finances that you probably wouldn't have picked up on if you were doing it all yourself. For example, overspending on shopping or deliveries, finding an unexpected spending pattern. But Monarch is great because it's going to help you own your finances. And as we know from episodes like this one, that's really important.

[Rob]

So I actually downloaded the Monarch app and there is a little butterfly logo. It's so cute.

[Mackenzie]

But, oh, it's adorable. No, it's very easy to use. Did you find any fun surprises?

[Rob]

I just like having all my finances in one place. And you can use it for multiple different things. Like, it gives you the option to use it for investments or just managing all your finances in one place. So that's really nice.

[Mackenzie]

It's also one of those budgeting things that, like, uses an emoji. Like, I love having a little food icon next to how much I spend at restaurants. And when I downloaded it, I realized that I spent more in the food emoji department than I thought I did. And that was good to know. That was good to know. Financial stress is one of the top reasons relationships fall apart. Monarch makes money conversations easier. It helps you stay on top of it. So track your shared or individual accounts. Set goals together. If you're doing it with a partner, keep money check ins drama free.

[Rob]

And it's an app, so it's already on your phone and you guys know you're already on your phone.

[Laura]

You're already there.

[Mackenzie]

And you can share access with a financial advisor or a tax professional at no extra cost. So your team can help you get control of your overall finances with Monarch money. Use code [e-mail] in your browser for half off of your first year. That's 50% off your first year@monimal money.com with code dating.

[Rob]

This is Amanda Hirsch from the Not Skinny but not fat podcast.

[Mackenzie]

You might know me from not Skinny.

[Rob]

But not fat on Instagram, where I spend my time talking about reality TV celebrities, everything happening, and pop culture every Tuesday.

[Laura]

Okay.

[Rob]

I also talk to some of our favorite celebs and reality TV stars. We talk about what's going on.

[Laura]

Tune in every Tuesday and just feel.

[Mackenzie]

Like you're talking with your best friends in your living room.

[Laura]

So we did start trying to reconnect. He did come to my son's graduation. We did try and start.

[Mackenzie]

Did Phyllis come?

[Laura]

Not to that. She didn't. But slowly she started coming because the minute that dad said he didn't want anything to do with us, she moved back into the house. So she was fully back in.

[Rob]

And she didn't have to deal with you either.

[Laura]

Nope.

[Jacob]

Right.

[Laura]

And so now she's living with him again. And so she would show up occasionally and we would just ignore her. We just played like she didn't even exist because it was awkward. Yeah. Well. And trying to control all the things that I want to say to her was really difficult. And even just snarky little comments when she was there. Like, I really had to. I had to watch my mouth. But at one point, just a couple of years ago, I told Rob, I said, you know, I don't know what to do. I'm tired of being angry. And I was like, I'm going to try.

[Rob]

And that must have been exhausting.

[Laura]

It was. And trying to balance, still trying to have a relationship with my dad and it not be awkward. But so much damage had happened that there's no way it's not going to be awkward. But I decided to take the high road, and I was going to try and patch it up with Phyllis. And I. How? Even though you knew, I was gonna try and walk in forgiveness and just get it off of me and just make the most of what I could. And so I did go over there close to Christmas a couple years ago, and I was like, you know, let's just move forward. Yes. I won't say that the past is past, because the past is still looming. And I don't know what this is going to look like, but I am going to make an effort. And I was like, you are welcome to come to my home again. You're welcome at the children's events, but I can't make life. Yeah.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Jacob]

I can't promise. I was not there yet.

[Laura]

He was not there yet. And, you know, we honored that because I get it. And honestly, my kids were not in the same spot either. They didn't want her around. But she did start showing up again, and she was like, oh, yes, I've wanted that for a long time, and I appreciate you making this effort. Of course, it was in front of my dad, and it made my dad really happy. And so how could you not try to make him happy? And so she started coming over for Christmases, and it was still awkward. And. What can I say? It just.

[Rob]

Nothing.

[Laura]

What do you say?

[Mackenzie]

That is awkward. Did she get you guys anything?

[Laura]

No. No.

[Mackenzie]

Because she's like, sorry, I couldn't afford it.

[Rob]

She didn't have no money.

[Laura]

No. Well, you know, the gifts always come from dad anyways, right?

[Rob]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jacob]

Well, she was still on probation at that point, and so Laura was trying to patch things up, but I still wasn't in that zone mentally. And so I was still trying to get her caught with her probation officers. Anytime they'd go out of town, I would email her probation officer. I kept up with who her probation officer was, their email address, their supervisor. And I was emailing, and I was like, hey, she's out of town. Did you know she's out of town? Just trying to keep her accountable. But her probation was actually coming to an end. And I was like, well, I have some questions. Because I had already been informed that she had not paid any of the restitution for her embezzlement and she'd had.

[Laura]

Her probation fees cut.

[Jacob]

Yeah, they basically told me, well, she got considered indigent.

[Laura]

What.

[Mackenzie]

What does that mean?

[Jacob]

Means that she's so poor she can't afford to pay the restitution and the probation fees. And that's why they cut them to a lesser amount. And so they told us that basically for the companies that she embezzled from, if they wanted to recoup any money, they would have to file a civil suit against her. But she is going to be off of probation.

[Laura]

But, like, she got it. Considered indigent, but she had the same job that she had since before her indictment, lived in my dad's house, where she didn't make any kinds of payments, didn't pay any of the utilities, and she bought a new car. But according to the state of Texas, she's indigent.

[Mackenzie]

Well, she's probably. Is she using. She's using his, like, name and his accounts for a lot of payments. So her accounts could have little in them and just.

[Laura]

But she also has. She had her job, so she had a steady paycheck and she has Social Security because of her age. So she had two paychecks coming in.

[Mackenzie]

A month, and she still gets that qualification. We.

[Laura]

She had to have manipulated something to be considered. That's not a label they just give to anybody. I mean, you have to prove. You have to prove it. So what did she falsify? What did she do to be proved indigent?

[Jacob]

Yeah.

[Rob]

Was there any indication in this whole time of any drug or alcohol use, any weird behaviors or anything like that? Like, where is this money?

[Laura]

Nothing. We have no clue.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah. Because I was gonna say it would make sense if it was going to all her probation.

[Rob]

Yeah.

[Mackenzie]

Things. But I guess she didn't have those.

[Laura]

None of it.

[Jacob]

So we just kept this going, you know, slowly trying to repair our relationship with dad. But we added her son into the mix. So he lived in California, but he moved back into the area and he started going out to my dad's land and putting cattle out there and building fences and working on the property. And we ended up having a conversation with dad and he told us that he's deciding to sell her son the land.

[Laura]

We went out for lunch one day and we had. Actually, he brought up his will and wanted to talk about his will, which was great because Rob and I had been talking about it behind the scenes, like, we need to get this done. And when her son came back in the picture and we. We kind of were like, I wonder if he's going. You know, it was a thought, you know, that we were cautious with, of I wonder, because he started putting up fencing and started making improvements on the land. And so we thought he was going to say, well, since I've done this, you owe it to me. You know, I've invested so much money doing this and putting new this and new that, you owe me is how we thought it was going to be presented. So we started talking about his will and end of life planning, and he just straight out said it. He said, I'm going to sell the land to her son. And that was one of those times that we had to just sit back and listen and we're just like, you know, it's yours to do with what you want, dad. You know, we'll do whatever you want to do. But the longer we sat there and the further the conversation went on, Rob got a little aggravated and was like, you know what? I think he's taking advantage of you. And I was like, I agree.

[Jacob]

I said, we're just gonna be honest here in this conversation. And I'm gonna tell you, I'm not happy about the whole situation. I think that Delane's worth a lot more than that. I don't. You know, I think you're being taken advantage of. Like she said.

[Laura]

We. Sorry, I lost my train of thought there, but sorry. He did say, you know, yeah, we're going to be honest. And it's not that Rob and I wanted the land. I wanted my dad to spend the rest of his life there. He loved being out there. It was a sense of his identity. It was a part of his identity. I wanted my dad to spend the rest of his life there. And so.

[Jacob]

But it's also an inherit inheritance and, you know, a legacy that we could pass down to our children. So, yes, I did want the land, you know.

[Laura]

Right. But it's not valuable. It's not in a great location, you know, it's not. I mean, there's nothing to it that anybody would go, oh, that is valuable. It's just that's where my dad spent his life. And on those weeks that we were running around in the car with dad, one of the visits we made was to Jacob Stone's office so that he could re buy the land. You know, they had been renting it for over 30 years. And so Jacob Stone was like, you know, I'm a businessman. I'm. I'm gonna. I'm gonna get my money off of it. Which he did several times over. And so they worked up a contract, and it was for $25,000. And the way they pitched it to him was, oh, we're going to save you so much money every month because you don't have to make that payment. So, yeah, you're going to live so good, because you won't have to make that payment every month. Well, short term.

[Jacob]

And you won't have to pay the taxes every year.

[Laura]

Right. We're just going to save you so much money. So I was on my way back to work, and I called dad, and I was like, you know, instead of. Instead of paying the 16 for the land, why don't you ask him for 25? Because that's what you had to re buy the land for. And that way it clears what you had to re buy, and that puts some money in your pocket. Go have some fun. You want to take a vacation? Take a vacation. You want to buy something? Buy something. Because I think he only owed like 12 on the land left. So he was like, let me think about it. Of course, he went home and talked to her, and her son purchased the land for 16,000.

[Jacob]

So we feel like he got taken advantage of.

[Rob]

Beyond. Yeah, way beyond.

[Jacob]

They made it seem like, well, we're doing you a favor because now you're not going to be making payments on the land anymore.

[Laura]

Because he had to rebuy the land. Yeah, he had to rebuy the land from Jacob Stone. We worked out the agreement. He was rebuying the land, and so he was just going to take that monthly payment off of him by buying the land off of him.

[Jacob]

So one Saturday, and this was just maybe a month or two ago, I had borrowed my dad's tractor, and I was delivering it back, and her son was there while I was delivering it. And he started walking over to my truck, and I thought, well, he was just going to come over and ask me to park the tractor in a certain spot or, you know, something. Well, I rolled down my window, and he immediately starts getting in my face. And he's like, you need to leave my effing family's name out of your mouth. And I'm like, I don't know what you're talking about. And he just kept on going. And he started threatening to beat me. And he had his finger in my face, pointing at me, saying, you need to Quit talking about my family. And Phyllis was standing right there next to him and she said, you told your granddad and uncle about the sale of the land. And I'm like, I don't know what you're talking about. I didn't say shit. But he's like, you need to get your ass off my property and never step foot on it again. And so, you know, because now he owns it, dad sold it to him. So I dropped the tractor off, and as soon as I got off the property, I called my dad and I said, if this is the effing family that you want, you just go ahead and have them. I said, I'm done. I'm not doing this anymore. I said, if you want to have any kind of relationship with me, you're going to meet me. I'm not trying anymore. And he actually did immediately come over to my house. I had called Laura and my wife and told him what had happened. And I. I was furious at that point. But dad came over to the house and he immediately started apologizing for what had happened. And he tried to offer me money. And I'm like, dad, this is about money. This is about a relationship with you. And now I can't even step foot on the property. And just by coincidence, I'm sure that night her son brings over blueprint plans and says that they're going to build him a house on the property that he can live in rent free for the rest of his life until he dies.

[Mackenzie]

Brings it over to you?

[Jacob]

No, to my dad.

[Mackenzie]

Your dad. Okay.

[Jacob]

Yeah. That night he brought the blueprints over, showing him this new house that they're going to build for him. But we've always kind of thought something was sketchy because it was a four bedroom, three bath house. And if it's my dad and Phyllis living there, there's only two of them. But her son has three children, so, you know, they need a four bedroom house. So we've always thought that something's going to happen. Dad will never be able to move into the house and they're going to move into it.

[Laura]

Dad was living in a trailer house, so they sold that and moved it. So my dad is technically homeless. He's living with her other son with nothing to show for his name. Nothing. I mean, like, he does have the tractor and like a riding lawnmower. I mean, you know, he's got a few things like that that he literally has nothing to his name. And he's just waiting on this house. This house, this house.

[Mackenzie]

What's your relationship with him.

[Laura]

Right now, we're all kind of in the same place. I'm still determined to stay in the relationship. 1. I love my dad. He irritates the heck out of me in this whole situation, but I don't want her to win. And she's made the comment to my dad, she's like, laura's gonna take me down. And I'm like, you better believe it. And I've told her when? Yeah, I've told her before. I was like, look, I'm not going away. You're just gonna have to get used to it. I'm not going away. And she was like, I know. Yes, ma'. Am. Yes, ma'. Am. You know, it was so stupid and placating, but. So right now, we're just kind of like we're on hold and just waiting because the prayer has been that that relationship just implode on its own. Because now that there's this house involved and dad's living with her other son, you know, living with somebody is always complicated. And this whole house situation, something's going to happen because you just can't live with somebody long term. It doesn't work. And we've started to see a couple of cracks over the last couple of weeks in the relationship with the son that's building him the house and. And the son that he's living with. And we're starting to see signs of it. Of course, she's like, you know what? We'll just forget all of them. We'll just go find a house and move to the lake together. And I did ask dad. He told me that at one point, I'm like, are you seriously considering moving away with her? You would choose to be with her over your kids and your grandkids after everything that she said she wants to further. Yeah, she wants to isolate him. Yeah. But the only thing that I really, really want is I want her to catch that third felony.

[Mackenzie]

Mm.

[Laura]

She works.

[Rob]

Third time's a charm.

[Laura]

Yeah, she does work at that same job. And you know the one thing that she'd always tell us is, oh, well, I got a bonus from work. And so we always knew something was sketchy every time she said, I got a bonus from work. Well, she's been getting a lot of bonuses lately.

[Rob]

Wow.

[Mackenzie]

Well, now she probably thinks she can get away with anything because she's still with him.

[Laura]

Yes. Yeah. Because we don't have access to his bank records, so she's still getting lots of bonuses. And according to the way she tells dad is we fixed everything for her by finding everything out. She's like, y' all found it all. Cause we're like, what? Have you not told us? What else is there?

[Rob]

Yeah, there's more. Come on.

[Laura]

Oh, yeah. No, we're like, what else are we gonna find? And she's like, no, nothing. Y' all found it all. And I'm so glad because now everything's fixed. So it's frustrating because even talking to dad, he'll tell the old stories, like, oh, well, that happened because of this. And we're like, no, dad, no, she took it. Do you remember? He's like, oh, yeah. Because there's so much more to this story that we haven't told. Like, she was pawning items. You know, she pawned some of my dad's. Like, he had some shotguns and guns that he'd won, like in a skeet shooting contest and coin collection.

[Mackenzie]

And, like, probably that wedding ring.

[Laura]

Oh, you.

[Mackenzie]

Way back in the day.

[Laura]

Oh, yeah.

[Jacob]

A vacuum cleaner that she tried to blame on Laura.

[Laura]

She did.

[Rob]

Oh, my God.

[Laura]

It was the stupidest.

[Mackenzie]

Did she say you stole their vacuum cleaner?

[Laura]

I stole their vacuum. And the thing is, is, like, who knows how many more situations that we don't know about that this stuff has gone on, Right?

[Mackenzie]

She's just said things about you guys.

[Jacob]

Still, our question to this day, and that's what we still don't know, is where all the money went.

[Laura]

And we did sit down with the huge pile of bank statements, and we started doing totals. And we were generous with the totals because we were like, okay, you know, there's some trips to Walmart or there's some Amazon purchases. Well, that's around Christmas, so that might be Christmas gifts or. Oh, that might be a birthday gift. Cause that's around so and so's birthday. You know, like, we were generous when we put the numbers together. And in the one year, what we totaled, I don't remember what it was, but we took it and multiplied it over 20 something years, and it was well over a million dollars.

[Rob]

Wow, dude, that's so much money.

[Laura]

It was. And that's not including what she stole from the companies. That's just what she took from dad. So that was ATM withdrawals, the check she wrote to herself. The stuff that we could see, because in some of that, she paid her son's land payment. She also got this. She paid her son's property taxes. Oh, wasn't that kind of her?

[Mackenzie]

Nice of her.

[Rob]

So nice of her. She's so generous.

[Laura]

So she helped him out, paid some of his tractor Payments. Paid some of his truck payments. Paid his property taxes.

[Rob]

Did he not. Did he not. Did y' all ask him, like, hey, did you have any idea where this money was coming from? Or were you just like, hey, this is cool?

[Laura]

Well, we don't talk to her sons. You know, we don't have a relationship with them.

[Rob]

I would be forming one real quick.

[Laura]

I really don't care to.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, they sound delightful.

[Laura]

But. And I did have some compassion for one moment. There was a time my dad was in the hospital and the son that bought the land came in and was there. And I guess I had a God moment where I was like, you know what? He grew up with her as a mother. He probably has no idea what the truth actually is, because all he's ever been told is what she tells him.

[Rob]

He probably knows.

[Laura]

Yeah, that's all he knows. And so as far as I can tell, who knows what she's told him about us? And we got to think. And I was like, you know what? I wonder if she told them, her two boys, that the reason they never had any money was because of how much child support my dad had to pay for us or that she had to pay for something for us. So that probably caused some contention with them against us because they didn't want to have a relationship with us either. I don't know if that's the truth. That's conjecture on our part. But, you know, I did have compassion for him for just a brief moment, and then he got in Rob's face, and then that compassion kind of went out the window. So.

[Jacob]

So this is where. This is where we're at. We. We're still in a dogfish situation, I mean, to this day. And we just pray at this point that he will open his eyes and see her pattern. But we're still waiting for that final ch to be written.

[Mackenzie]

This is heartbreaking.

[Laura]

Yeah, we, you know, just celebrated the Fourth of July, and he didn't even go to the lake for the family reunion because Phyllis wasn't welcome. So he chose to stay with her instead of be with his family. And so it's just. We're stuck. We don't know where to go. We don't know what to do. We're just hoping that some more comes to light eventually, and that's it.

[Mackenzie]

This honestly makes me want to Google, like, cult psychology.

[Laura]

Yeah.

[Mackenzie]

Because it feels very similar in a lot of ways. Just the way that somebody can manipulate you for so long into giving everything, literally everything, and giving up everything.

[Laura]

Yeah.

[Mackenzie]

Like, he's literally Given up his kids, right?

[Jacob]

Yep.

[Laura]

And for him to still repeat the same old stories. Like, we've used the term brainwashing so many times because that's how it feels.

[Mackenzie]

We've talked about it before. There is research done on how repetition affects you and what you believe is reality. And like you said, you don't know what she's telling him. That's horrible. Okay, so what's your day to day right now? Are you checking in on Fridays with Dad or just kind of like.

[Laura]

Yeah.

[Mackenzie]

Holding your breath with him all the time.

[Laura]

We text almost daily with dad, and it's really surface. I mean, you know, he's pretty honest with us most of the time. We're banned from the other Sands land, too. We're not allowed to be out there. And we went out there to go pick up a piece of equipment and it caused trouble, you know, so that's where I'm saying, like, some of the cracks are starting to form. And dad tells us about it. He's honest with us. Like, he was texting us before we got on the podcast. And, you know, and it's just. It's just chit chat, and we've invited him to go places and he'll go. So it's. It's still there, but it is complicated. And we still have to tiptoe around her.

[Mackenzie]

Have you ever gotten any kind of apology from him after that one week of, like, the big discovery?

[Laura]

Oh, no. No.

[Jacob]

Oh. And we never will.

[Mackenzie]

What? I can't. He's like, for you guys to have to heal from the person who's supposed to really protect you. And also, in a way that's like, you know, he's not malicious. Like, you love him. He loves you.

[Rob]

I was about to say, like, how do you. You can't blame the guy. But also like, hey, dad, like, you know what I mean?

[Laura]

Yeah. Well, it's hard. It's hard to. I mean, because he is a victim, but at some point. At some point he's not because he's allowed himself. Nope.

[Rob]

You're. Absolutely. That's. Yep.

[Mackenzie]

Do you think he knows deep down and doesn't care because he just wants it to be.

[Laura]

I think there's an element of that. I think that. Well, there's. I think there's multiple layers here, because he had mentioned before when he had kicked her out and he was struggling, he was like, it's just so much easier than being alone. And I do hear that.

[Rob]

Oh, man, we hear that on a lot of episodes.

[Laura]

But then she's also very Very manipulative. And so she will play this game with him where she makes him feel like he has an ounce of control. Like, where he'll say, well, I'm gonna move that tractor over to Laura's house and keep it there. And she'll be like, oh, please don't. You know, like, where it makes him. Like he feels like he's got this power and authority.

[Rob]

He's got it over her. And he really doesn't.

[Laura]

And he doesn't.

[Mackenzie]

I also think it's interesting, like, you started your story talking about how much he loves his lawn, and one of the few things she kind of let him keep was his lawnmower. Like, she's not an idiot by any means.

[Jacob]

Not at all.

[Mackenzie]

She's a. I kind of think she's a psychopath.

[Laura]

We've used that word.

[Mackenzie]

I agree. I think she. Because it sounds like the type of person that just truly doesn't have any feelings.

[Laura]

I don't know how you could.

[Mackenzie]

And just fakes it. How can you do that to your. The person you love?

[Laura]

Well, and especially for that long and.

[Jacob]

Continue to do to this day?

[Laura]

I mean, we're at this point, we're talking over 30 years.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Laura]

So. But we're adding a whole nother level of complication because my dad is getting older, and so we're having to talk, like, wills and all that stuff, which is not pleasant.

[Rob]

Yeah, not at all.

[Laura]

Also, we're having to consult lawyers and get advice because now we're looking at common law stuff and we're looking at. She's the one who's taking him to the doctor. What is she telling the doctors? If something were to happen to my dad, even if he's living in that house or not, will they let us know that something happened to my dad? Will be allowed to check on my dad as he ages? Because if he does get to live in that house, are we going to be able to go visit him and check on him and help take care of him? Like, there's a whole nother level of layer of this that we've.

[Rob]

Heartbreaking.

[Laura]

We've been trying to. To figure out what we can do to. To get ahead of things.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Laura]

But we have to have Dad's participation. And there are moments that. Well, there are moments that. That is. That he's like, yeah, I'll do that. And then there's moments he's like, nah, it's fine.

[Mackenzie]

Is he kind of like, that will never happen. Like, they would never do that. And you're like, well, you didn't think she'd be embezzling funds either.

[Laura]

Yeah. He was at my house a couple of weeks ago. He came over for lunch, and he was frustrated and was venting. And I told him. I was like, you know, we do. Because he had brought up a will. And I was like, well, we need to get that done. And he's like, yeah, I know. And I said, and, dad, I. I am not trying to be tacky. I was. But, you know, I have to be gentle.

[Rob]

Yeah.

[Laura]

I was like, I'm not trying to be rude. I'm not trying to be tacky. But, dad, we need to get you on video saying that you're not married.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Laura]

And he's like. He's like, yeah, I'll do that. But he's like, I've already told her we're not married and she's not getting anything. And I said, I understand that, dad, but you know that when something does happen and it's her against me and Rob, it's going to be ugly. He was like, yeah, I know. And then her son's gonna get involved, and it's gonna be a big mess. So there are some ounces of recognition. And then he goes home to her, and she spends it, and it goes away.

[Mackenzie]

Wow. Man, you're smart, though. He's very lucky to have both of you. And I hope you don't blame yourselves for anything, because this is, like, he's. It's textbook stuff, as I'm sure you guys have probably gone down the rabbit hole of learning about having to go through it. Like, she is just heartbreaking. Running the playbook. Wow. Wow, wow, wow, wow. And I'm curious, like, why him? Is he just a nice person? Because he obviously wasn't. It's not like she went after a billionaire. Like, she.

[Jacob]

She found a perfect victim in our father because he's just.

[Laura]

He was so lonely when they met. You know, he had been single for a while, and he didn't like being single, and he was alone, and they would go out and go dancing and go to the bars and hang out. And so she was a lot of fun to start with, and he appreciated that. I mean, she knows what she's doing, and she knows what she was looking.

[Mackenzie]

For, so she probably did it before him. We know she did a little bit.

[Laura]

We do. And there's a whole nother story to that, but I know we don't have time for that, but.

[Mackenzie]

Well, I want updates, obviously. And I'm also curious if you have anything to say about, like, balancing being there For a family member, going through this while still protecting yourselves and having boundaries. Because I think in a more general sense, a lot of people deal with, like, a narcissist in a family or just, like, having to have that boundary while you also don't want to cut it off completely. I don't know how you guys are doing it. It's amazing.

[Laura]

Well, I appreciate that. It's not. It's hard, and there's not a method. It's just we take it day to day. And I'll be honest. There's some days that it's okay and I have that relationship, and then there's some days I'm so angry that I'm like, I don't even want to be around you. Like, why?

[Rob]

I don't blame you.

[Laura]

And then the next day I'll be like. But he just doesn't understand what he's doing. I mean, you know, it's a roller coaster, and it's not a steady path. Walking through the forgiveness. It's a choice every day. And so that's a good way to put it. I don't. Can I say I've forgiven her? That's tough. I mean, I'm working on it, because the forgiveness will be beneficial for me.

[Mackenzie]

You can forgive, but you don't have to forgive.

[Rob]

Oh, no.

[Laura]

It will never be forgotten, ever.

[Mackenzie]

No, no, no, no, no.

[Laura]

And if anything, I will make sure it's never forgotten. And we'll keep screaming it from the rooftops until she's either caught doing something else or until dad gets it.

[Rob]

Wow. Man.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, this is awful. And I hate that you're in it. I hate that you're in the middle of it. I wish this was a nice little ending where dad. It's like, I see the light.

[Laura]

Yeah, well, us too. You know, we hoped that we would have. Because when. When all this started in 2018, we thought, surely there's no way it would have gone on till 2025. But here we are seven years later and not changed.

[Jacob]

We thought when they divorced, that was.

[Mackenzie]

Going to be it, but at least they're divorced. I'm like. Not to make it. Make light of a bad situation, but I guess legally that helps a little.

[Jacob]

Yeah, a little.

[Laura]

A little.

[Mackenzie]

A little. She can work on me.

[Rob]

I just feel like, oh, my. I'm so angry.

[Laura]

What the hell?

[Mackenzie]

I'm very angry. On his behalf, on your behalf. And she better not come near us. We're not gonna be nice. Dude.

[Rob]

Freaking. So much money that she's taken from this man.

[Laura]

Well, it's not just dad either. She's.

[Mackenzie]

It's you guys.

[Rob]

Yeah, well, it's you guys. Yeah.

[Laura]

I mean, she stole from my uncle and she stole from her sister in law and she stole from her employers. And we know that she opened a credit card in her son's name and ran up $10,000 on a credit card. So it's not just my dad. She's victimized anybody she's came across and then she works her way out of it cause she, she cries and does the sweet old lady routine and you know, has a million excuses.

[Jacob]

Never spent a day in jail, not one.

[Mackenzie]

That's insane.

[Rob]

How does she just keep. Oh my God.

[Mackenzie]

I also hope people listening, like go through their finances. There's so many episodes that make me just want to like double check everything.

[Laura]

Right? And then that's the one thing that we kept telling dad is follow up. If she tells you something, follow up. Did you check your bank app? Did you check the email? Did you check the, you know, and he's like, yeah, but I don't think he does. But that, that's the word of wisdom that I would give anybody is don't just take it. I mean, just because you have an insurance card in your glove box doesn't mean the insurance bill is paid. Just because the electricity bill. Electricity's on doesn't mean the electricity bill's paid. Follow up. You know, know what's going on in your bank accounts. Make sure that you know exactly the bank app that you have a bank app that you aren't looking at a fake statement.

[Mackenzie]

God, I'm sorry. Yeah. I'm sure it changes your whole, like the way you have to look at the world.

[Laura]

Yeah.

[Mackenzie]

If you have any advice for kids who might be going through this with their parents.

[Laura]

What do you think, Rob?

[Jacob]

Don't give up. I mean, even though it seems impossible, just keep doing your research like we said, with keeping your arms linked to that narcissistic person and try not to lose that relationship with the other parent. Even though it's surface level right now, there's still bits of a relationship.

[Laura]

And I think I would say take it a day at a time and let the hard days be hard. And let the good days be good. And just don't put any expectations on what might be coming and just take it moment by moment.

[Rob]

That's good advice too, man.

[Mackenzie]

I'm so sorry.

[Rob]

And like, there's no end in sight. Like, what do you do? What do you do?

[Laura]

I don't know. That's the question.

[Mackenzie]

One Thing you do is you let us know.

[Laura]

Yeah.

[Mackenzie]

If there are updates, if you are comfortable doing so. Because we're very invested and. Well, I'm going to be thinking about this a lot.

[Laura]

Hopefully the good. Hopefully there'll be an update soon because the house should be ready in the next two to three months.

[Mackenzie]

Oh.

[Laura]

And so we will see if he gets to move in or not and how that goes.

[Mackenzie]

Well, you let us know in two or three months. I have a feeling I'm not going.

[Laura]

To put my money on it.

[Rob]

We're going to need updates for sure.

[Mackenzie]

Sure.

[Rob]

Like, I'm dying.

[Mackenzie]

Thank you so much for both of you being here. I love both of you and that. Hey, you're a good team.

[Laura]

Thank you. Thank you for having us and thank you for letting us tell our stories.

[Jacob]

Tell our story. Absolutely.

[Mackenzie]

I was racking my brain, like, what can you. What can we do? Like, is there. You've done everything. Like, you've done everything you can do.

[Laura]

I mean, we've literally. We went for lawyers. We've. I mean, we've talked to so many lawyers about what we can do. In Dad's divorce decree, there's a $150,000 promise note, plus a whole bunch of interest, so that will be executable against her estate someday. Even after Dad's gone, we can still go after that. So, I mean, there are some things that we've put in place along the way, but it's never going to make up for what we've gone through for the last few years.

[Mackenzie]

Never. Never.

[Laura]

And it's not about money. We just want dad to be okay.

[Rob]

Wow. I don't like it. I just. I. Oh, that's so many years.

[Mackenzie]

She's diabolical. She's a hard worker. It's crazy and it's sad. I am so sad for their whole family.

[Laura]

It.

[Rob]

How do you handle that when it's your parent? Like, that's their dad? Do you know what I mean? One thing that really stuck out to me on this episode is when Robin, Laura were talking and she says, at what point is he no longer a victim? Like, at what point is he saying, well, I know this is happening. So, like, you've told me, and now I know, but I can't. I can't stop. And then it's like, well, are you still a victim if you're. If it's happening, but you know it's happening.

[Mackenzie]

There's a lot of nuance to this conversation, and I hope we continue to have it, I think.

[Rob]

And how do we protect Our parents.

[Mackenzie]

And our older generation, I think one, I think both things can be true. Somebody can be groomed and victimized and manipulated into being susceptible, and they can also at some point be somewhat complicit. But I think his age and tech savviness really does play into it. And I don't want to come off as, like, ages, because I think that the way, the way I look at it is, like, when a new social media platform comes out right now, I'm like, nah, I can't, I can't. I'm too old for this. And I'm 30. Like, as you get older, you are set in your ways and you're used to what you're used to. And then a stage, especially in his generation, I do think it was very common for men especially to have their mom and then to have their wife, and it was the dynamic to be dependent on them for your. Your lifestyle.

[Rob]

Yes.

[Mackenzie]

Like, I know so many people whose grandparents or their grandpa's like, oh, when my wife's out of town, like, I don't. I eat. I eat cereal for every meal.

[Rob]

Like, I just. Tuna straight out of the can.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah. And if that works for your dynamic, fine. But I just think it was very common for that dependency to be the norm, which makes. Makes people vulnerable. And I think at this point he's staying with her because she is doing a service. Like, she is taking care of him in a way that he probably doesn't want to have to do himself or find somebody else.

[Rob]

Right. Yep.

[Mackenzie]

Like, he's not going to want to date now.

[Rob]

Yeah. And like, what do you do when, like, if someone knows that they're being taken advantage of, for instance, but they're older, it's like they enjoy being taken care of, but they know that, like, when they die, they can't take it with them, so might as well enjoy being taken care of while they're here, you know?

[Mackenzie]

Well, here's the thing for me. What's he taking? He doesn't have anything to take with him anymore. He doesn't have anything to leave his kids. Like, it's one thing if you are a rich person and you know that you've got a gold digger wife who you're like, great, or husband or partner of whatever kind. It's one thing if you have money and you just are like, great, she's trying to get my money when I'm gone, but she makes my life nice right now. I'm not saying I agree. I just, like, that makes more sense to me than, like, what is she doing with this money? And it's. She's robbing him and his whole family. Like the. When Laura was crying over him having to say, I just can't leave you any more money because I need it. Is that, that's heartless. Like, you can't do that to somebody without being an evil person.

[Rob]

No, you can't. And that's so terrible. And you would think that after so many years she would start to feel a little guilty maybe or be like, oh, I should stop this or whatever. And it just, I just can't believe the length of it. Time it went on, how much work.

[Mackenzie]

She put into it somebody.

[Rob]

I mean, creating false documents and statements every month for 20 years, dude, I'm.

[Mackenzie]

Telling you, if she worked at a non profit, she could change the freaking world. That work ethic is inspiring. Work ethic, detail, detail. I mean, why go through all the trouble? That's okay, so that's. Do you have anything else to say though about that victim complicit conversation before we move on? I do think, like, I get they have a right to be angry that I don't know that he's in denial, that he's, they're doing as much as they can. But that can also. That can be true alongside him being a victim who's been manipulated.

[Rob]

Yeah, I would love to hear what you guys think about that. Like, can you, if you know it's happening to you, can you still be considered a victim? Just wondering. I would love to hear what you guys have to think.

[Mackenzie]

And also, what do you do when it's your parent like, or a family member.

[Rob]

That's almost happened to my mom before with the fraud and the scams and.

[Mackenzie]

Wait, what happened?

[Rob]

Someone called my mom and said, hey you, we're gonna send you these gift cards. I need you to go to the Apple store and you can keep the rest of the money, but we're gonna send you this much or whatever. And she was gonna go, but then her car wouldn't start. And just randomly out of nowhere, her car would not start.

[Mackenzie]

Karma.

[Rob]

I know. And so it was like, I don't know if it's God or the universe, like protecting her, but she's like, I couldn't leave. And so she's calling like trying to get her car to start so she can go get these gift cards. And what was going to happen was it was going to overdraw her bank account. Like it was going to show good. She was going to use the money and then it would, it would return like the check would bounce or whatever, the equivalent of the check bouncing. And then it would withdraw her account and then she'd be responsible for all that money and her car wouldn't start. So it didn't happen. But I was like, mom, you, you can't. If it sounds too good to be true, if someone calls you and says, hey, I'm gonna give you money, if it sounds too good to be true, it is. If it doesn't make sense, it isn't. So, period.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, that's so common and scary. It's so scary. The other one I've hear, I hear about and I'm sure people have scams that they know of too, where people will call you and record your voice. And yes, that happened to. Yeah, my mom's friend, they called with her daughter saying hello, Hello. Because when you answer the phone, you go, hello, hello. And they record it. And then they were like, I have your daughter. We kidnapped your daughter. I mean, if you hear your daughter's voice on the phone and you're not aware that this is a common scam, you're gonna.

[Rob]

Yeah, you're gonna be like, no. Like you're gonna believe them. And I think the thing to do.

[Mackenzie]

If that happens to you is like drive straight to a police station.

[Rob]

Yes.

[Mackenzie]

If you're like, I'm nervous, this might be real, just drive to a police station. So.

[Rob]

And also they. Someone might call you and they'll ask you a question like, you know, can you hear me? And you'll say yes. And now they have a recording of your voice saying yes. So they can use it however they want.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, my goodness. Also, let's throw AI in the mix.

[Rob]

I don't want to talk about. I don't even. AI is that I really am worried about what AI is going to do. There's so many criminals. That's why I had to tell Ryan, I had to tell my 11 year old son. To assume that everybody is out to get you. You have to assume that no one is safe to trust. And that's awful. I don't want him to live like that. I don't want. But.

[Mackenzie]

Well, that's why we learn these stories and learn what we can do to protect ourselves and then keep our people that we trust close and hope for the best and keep talking to each other, especially on our Patreon seamless transition. Speaking of talking to each other, I would love to read some of the comments we got about what you guys think Phyllis is doing with the money.

[Rob]

Oh, because we. Some of those areas let's read them.

[Mackenzie]

Okay. So a lot of people think gambling. I'm gonna read Carol Ann.

[Rob]

Gambling would explain why you don't have anything to show for the money.

[Mackenzie]

No kidding. She's obviously not good at it. Okay, so Carol, Annie said gambling. This has all the hallmarks of gambling addiction. I had a relative in law like this. She thieved and lied and scammed and embezzled for her entire life. So, yeah, that could definitely be a thing. A lot of people thought that, but it's hard to know, like, where the money went. Somebody did bring up. Obviously, they're like, mackenzie, we need a PI to dig in. And I wanted to ask him about that. I obviously know you're bound by state restrictions, but if they were to hire a PI for, like, financial investigation or a forensic accountant, how would they go about that? How expensive would that be?

[Rob]

So I think really sad news for you private investigators. Generally, we can't access financial records, bank statements, credit card. But, like, not without legal authorization. Like, it has to be like a court order, a subpoena, or the API.

[Mackenzie]

Is like, helping people find money in accounts that they don't realize they still have there. But is that different because you're authorizing them to go into your.

[Rob]

Well, that's because that money gets escheated to the state. So it's called escheatment, which is. That's a public record. So escheat meant if you ever go to your.

[Laura]

Your.

[Rob]

Your state, like, type in Florida. S cheat meant. Like, es cheat meant M E N T. So s cheatment, it'll say, like, oh, this. This company. Like, if you paid off a credit card 10 years ago and overpaid by $200 or whatever, because waiting for you, they'll. They'll send it to his cheatment for you to collect. And so if you go to the Google machine and type in, you know, your state is cheap meant. And you can type in your name, and you can see if there's money there for you. So we can access that. We can see if you've had any kind of, like, bankruptcy or if there's been. Because that is litigation. So anything that involves litigation, we can look at. So if someone sued you or a credit card company, like, reported you for, you know, something to sue you to get their money back or whatever, we can access that because it's litigation. But if it's just your. Like to look at your bank account, we. We cannot legally find that information.

[Mackenzie]

Could a forensic accountant?

[Rob]

Yes, but they would have to do it legally. And so it would have to be like, we can't do it legally.

[Mackenzie]

So if they did this. I know, I know, I know. I can tell you're like, I'm trying to answer these.

[Rob]

Legally.

[Mackenzie]

If they said all of the fraud happened with her using an account that we have legal access to because it's his accounts.

[Rob]

Oh, yeah, well, you can forensic, but.

[Mackenzie]

That'S not what they need to find. They need to find where the money's going, and that might not be something they have access.

[Rob]

Well, because it's cash.

[Mackenzie]

Dang it.

[Rob]

Like, if she's taking money out and it's cash, there's. If you write a check, every check that goes. Like, if you deposit a check into your account, it. Every single check goes to the Federal Reserve, right? So it goes to the Federal Reserve before it goes to your account. So if it goes from like Wells Fargo to Bank of America, you deposit it. Wells Fargo goes to the Federal Reserve and they release the funds to bank of America. And every single check has a sequence number on the back of it specific to that check. So it's easy to find. Right? So I used to find missing money for bank of America, right? That's what I did for three years. So I know all of that stuff. And so when I became a bi, I knew how to find this stuff. But what's interesting is that with cash, unless you have the specific serial numbers which people don't have, and you know what I mean? So you can. It's just a lot of. Especially for cash. And she was not writing just like checks all willy nilly, you know, so this was a. It's hard to find the, the credit and the debit. It's hard to find the withdrawal and then the deposit.

[Mackenzie]

Wally Worlds thinks she's bankrolling another life with another man and has a separate account. I mean, another man, I don't know where, when it sounds like he's with her a lot, but I guess she could.

[Rob]

It's. Well, if it was a dude, I would instantly think, oh, I wonder if he has like a girlfriend.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, that's true. Double standard of us to not jump to that. And I own that, but I, I.

[Rob]

Own that because I was, I was like, well, I didn't think about it and I was like, well, if it was a dude.

[Mackenzie]

The thing is, like, I guess there are many cases where people have no idea, but they're sure at this point, I just feel like this family's been so on to her that they, they're, they're looking into pretty much Everything they can look into. It would be very impressive if they didn't find any red flag of an affair, in my opinion.

[Rob]

I think so too. Yeah, I totally agree with that.

[Mackenzie]

But I don't know. It must just be in a bank account or something. Maybe an offshore bank account said Skyler Logan. I had and then somebody else. Where's this one from Jen? Yeah. Secret family that she's supporting. People thought that people think she might be being scammed by. You know, there's tons of scammers like the one that happened to your mom. But that would be a really long, reliable scam partnership.

[Rob]

Right.

[Mackenzie]

That feels like a one time thing usually. Unless she's having a multiple scam. Would she be? I don't know, guys. I'm sorry. We don't have the answer. We're gonna keep staying in touch with them. That's what we got.

[Rob]

I'm just so. I hate not having closure. Like, we want to know, where is the money?

[Mackenzie]

Where's the money? If it's not the money, it's the money.

[Rob]

Do you remember Jerry Maguire? Show me the money.

[Mackenzie]

Literally. Yeah. The thing about the magazine. Oh, what was the magazine called? Because somebody said that that company went under and Finger Hut went under on a scandal. People went to jail. There was a scandal. A Finger Hut scandal. Mackenzie.

[Rob]

I don't know what it was, but imagine a name. Imagine your name of your company being Finger Hut.

[Mackenzie]

I know it sounds like a. Like an ice cream. I don't know what really crazy story. I wrote down little things about the details. A lot of them overlap with other scams where she really, I think, used confusion to her advantage.

[Rob]

Yes.

[Mackenzie]

Even when she was caught, she would. Her answers were never clear. She was very like politician y in that way. Yes, I agree. She just would throw off focus and really not give a clear answer. Which after a while you're just so confused. You don't know what's real anymore.

[Rob]

Yes, exactly. And it's like you. If you. So there's one. I don't know if I should even say this, but there's one trick that you use as a PI to get information from people, and that is say a bunch of nonsense with the not nonsense thrown in. Like, if I want to get information on your neighbor, I'm. I might knock on the door, ring the doorbell and be like, hi. Oh, my God. First of all, your shutters are. I love this color. What color is this? I'm looking for my dog. And it ran right here between your house and it was yesterday around the.

[Mackenzie]

Weed and, like, random stuff.

[Rob]

Yes. And then it's like. But it.

[Laura]

I think it was.

[Rob]

Maybe it was in your neighbor's yard. I don't know if it was in your yard or your neighbor's yard. When are your neighbors home? Can you tell me when?

[Laura]

They're.

[Rob]

When they're like, I tried to knock on their door, but they're not home. And then you're like. And then they'll be like, oh, they work at Walmart. They won't be home till 5. And you're like, oh, okay, thank you. I'll try there.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, is it.

[Rob]

Yeah. And then be like, oh, I love. Walmart's doing such great things. They have such great. Like, new. The new styles for the young ladies. And you just, like, pile in the.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, my gosh. And then you can be like, except the one over on this. Like, this side of town didn't have that. I don't know which one she's at.

[Rob]

But you just keep throwing, like, all kinds of nonsense, and it does. So the. A confused mind says no. And so a confused mind is like, whoa. And so if you're. If you just say, hey, when are your neighbors home? They're going to be like, why do.

[Mackenzie]

You want to know?

[Rob]

But if you. If they're just, like, listening to all your words and they hear all this confusion, they're good. They're just going to answer.

[Mackenzie]

You start answering.

[Rob]

Yeah. So it's wild. It's a trick, though.

[Mackenzie]

Well, it's a good tip for. It's a trick. But it's also like, if somebody's doing that to you now, you know, now you can spot it. Hopefully a PI is never coming for you. Hopefully you never do anything that requires it.

[Rob]

Y' all be a good girl.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, this is such a sad one.

[Rob]

Yeah.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, also, one last thing. I bet she really, really dug in on the us versus them mentality. I bet she really made him feel like his family didn't want the best for him, and she did and planted that seed early. That's another thing that is common.

[Rob]

Yes.

[Mackenzie]

Like cult stuff.

[Rob]

Yeah. I think that. No, definitely planting that seed early. And. Oh, man. Rob and Laura were very young when this started. And so imagine growing up with that and then looking back and thinking about all the things that you're like, oh, wait, I totally missed that. You know what I mean?

[Mackenzie]

Like, try to run him over with his.

[Rob]

Yes, yes.

[Mackenzie]

It's so hard. It's. When you dogfish one person, you dogfish a whole village.

[Rob]

Yep.

[Mackenzie]

And I don't have A lot of faith that dogf to care. But it's good for us to remember there's a lot of collateral damage.

[Rob]

I'm just so sad for this family, and especially because you want to be protective, especially if it's a parent. It just. It just breaks my heart.

[Mackenzie]

If you have any support you want to send to Rob and Laura, we'll make sure it gets to them. If you've been through anything like this and something has helped you that you want to share, we always try to share with our guests. If people say mean things, we try to delete them.

[Rob]

So sorry, zero tolerance.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah. They're not asking. They do this to help you. Like, they do this because they want their story to help.

[Rob]

Yeah. In hopes that it helps somebody.

[Mackenzie]

Yes, we want to protect that. And yeah, so they're also. They've made it clear that they will keep us posted, and that's.

[Rob]

Join the. So join the Patreon, because we do a lot of updates on the Patreon too, which, speaking of the Patreon, we have a new $9 tier. So we had the. The $5 tier, which was basically like two free, two bonus episodes a month. And then like the live forum and the book club. And so it's really fun to connect in there. And we have our own little private forum. But also now with the $9 tier, you get ad free listening for the actual podcast, like the. The big podcast.

[Mackenzie]

So all the episodes.

[Rob]

Yeah, yeah. So join the. Definitely join the. The Patreon and we'll link it in the show notes for you.

[Mackenzie]

It makes all of this possible.

[Rob]

We really appreciate all of our Patreon and all of. All of you listeners, all you sleuthies.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, I have one more thing I forgot. The self defense. July 27th. Yeah, July 27th in Santa Monica. We're doing it. Shout out to Emily. I got an email from a girl named Emily who wanted to know if she and her high school friends could come. And I was like, yeah, girl, all ages are welcome.

[Rob]

That's so amazing.

[Mackenzie]

I hope she brings her whole school.

[Rob]

I love that the younger ladies are taking advantage and getting involved, because I feel like a lot of times we're very naive at a young age. And the more our guests share their stories, the more you share, the more the conversation it's getting to our younger generation, which is going to help build a stronger older generation. Like, the older they get, they're going to learn from that, you know, So I think it's so important. So please keep, Keep talking, keep sharing.

[Mackenzie]

I also think it's an easier way to share lessons than being a parent and just being like, hey, don't go out with a bad boy. Like, that's not gonna work. But hearing these stories, we're like the modern day scared straight. We're like the modern day I'm here for.

[Rob]

I love it. I think. Yes. No, it's absolutely. So happy to it. Keep emailing us. Keep the conversation going. Our email address is Investigate at the Dating Detective and keep the conversation going on our social media Dating Detectives podcast on Instagram, TikTok or on Facebook. So come chat with us. And thank you for you guys sharing our podcast on your socials. Get our podcast out to other listeners who, you know, a lot of them have said, oh, my gosh, so and so shared your podcast with me. And you have no idea how this helped me or how this resonated with me. And that sense of community is just so special. So thank you for sharing.

[Mackenzie]

You're not alone, Eva, and we love you and as always, trust your fed tuition.

[Laura]

Sam.