Friends to Lovers to...Dogfish?

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Dating Detectives Episode – "Friends to Lovers to...Dogfish?"

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Dating Detectives
• Host/Author: Dear Media
• Episode: Friends to Lovers to...Dogfish?
• Release Date: April 7, 2025

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Introduction

In this riveting episode of The Dating Detectives, hosts Mackenzie Fultz and Hanna Anderson delve into a profoundly personal and heart-wrenching story shared by their guest, Nick. Titled "Friends to Lovers to...Dogfish?", this episode explores the depths of deception, emotional betrayal, and the ensuing mental health struggles that arise when trust is shattered in a long-term relationship.

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Guest Introduction: Nick’s Story

The episode begins with Mackenzie and Hanna introducing their guest, Nick, highlighting the rarity of male guests in their series. They emphasize Nick's willingness to share his deeply personal and traumatic experience, setting the stage for an engaging and empathetic discussion.

• Mackenzie (00:57): "We always wonder, like, why don't guys tell their stories more? And I really liked talking to this guest today..."

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Nick’s Relationship with Jen

Nick recounts his relationship with Jen, a woman he met through mutual friends during his time working on his uncle's cattle farm. Their bond grew over years of partying and friendship, eventually evolving into a long-distance relationship filled with daily communication and intermittent visits.

• Nick (04:30): "So I think you'll like it... He’s a dude."

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The Deception Unfolds: Jen’s Secret Life

The crux of Nick's story reveals that while maintaining their relationship, Jen was secretly engaged and had a child with her husband, Mark. Nick discovers this devastating truth unexpectedly through a Facebook post announcing the birth of their son, which Jen had meticulously hidden from him for over a decade.

• Nick (50:55): "So then obviously I noticed she was tagged in it, and they're announcing the birth of their son, and his birthday would be late August of 2019."

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Emotional and Mental Health Impact

The revelation plunges Nick into a severe emotional crisis, leading to insomnia, significant weight loss, and heavy drinking as he grapples with the betrayal. He discusses his descent into depression, suicidal ideation, and the eventual seeking of therapy as a lifeline.

• Nick (66:25): "I did admit my situation, that I'm not getting any better, and this is in fact really, really bad."
• Catherine (71:14): "And it's not weak to show vulnerability or sadness or intimacy."

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Support Systems and Recovery

Nick credits his family—particularly his sisters and mother—for providing essential support during his darkest moments. Through their encouragement, he begins therapy, which plays a pivotal role in his healing process. The hosts commend Nick’s resilience and the importance of seeking help.

• Nick (72:45): "So I made the choice. I finally, like, I'm gonna go see about, like, some anxiety medication or something."

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Reflection and Insights from Hosts

Mackenzie and Hanna reflect on Nick's story, emphasizing the profound impact of deception in relationships and the critical role of mental health support. They discuss the societal stigmas surrounding mental health, especially for men, and advocate for greater openness and support systems.

• Mackenzie (92:34): "Mental health is health. Sexual health is health."
• Catherine (80:02): "Everybody."

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Decision to Inform Jen’s Husband

Struggling with feelings of betrayal and a desire for closure, Nick contemplates informing Jen’s husband about her deceit. He wrestles with the moral implications of this action, balancing his need for truth with compassion for Mark, Jen’s husband.

• Nick (80:52): "I just need somebody to kind of nudge him."
• Catherine (82:12): "But no, I get that's a very hard."

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Conclusion and Call to Action

As the episode wraps up, the hosts express deep empathy for Nick and reinforce the importance of sharing such stories to foster a supportive community. They encourage listeners, especially men, to share their experiences and seek help when dealing with similar betrayals and mental health challenges.

• Mackenzie (94:47): "And you brought yourself out of it is insane. So good for you."
• Catherine (97:44): "What can we learn as we move forward?"

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Mackenzie (00:57): "We always wonder, like, why don't guys tell their stories more?"
• Nick (50:55): "So then obviously I noticed she was tagged in it, and they're announcing the birth of their son..."
• Catherine (71:14): "And it's not weak to show vulnerability or sadness or intimacy."
• Mackenzie (92:34): "Mental health is health. Sexual health is health."
• Nick (80:52): "I just need somebody to kind of nudge him."

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Final Thoughts

"Friends to Lovers to...Dogfish?" is a powerful episode that sheds light on the intricate and often painful dynamics of trust and deception in relationships. Through Nick’s candid recounting, Mackenzie and Hanna provide a platform for healing and awareness, encouraging listeners to recognize red flags and prioritize their mental well-being. This episode serves as a poignant reminder of the profound effects that deceit can have on an individual's life and the importance of support and honesty in the dating world.

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Join the Conversation

Listeners are encouraged to share their own stories and experiences on the podcast’s social media channels or via email at [e-mail]. Additionally, support the podcast by joining their Patreon or purchasing merchandise available until Wednesday through the links provided in the show notes.

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End of Summary

Transcript

[Catherine]

The following program contains names, places and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following program is provided for entertainment purposes only, and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances. If you or a loved one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic violence hotline at 1-800-799-7233 for support.

[Mackenzie]

Happy Monday. Staging Detectors Monday, you guys, we have quite a story for you today. We have a story for you every week. Duh.

[Catherine]

Yeah, but. But our guest today is special.

[Mackenzie]

He's a dude.

[Catherine]

We don't get a lot of those on here.

[Mackenzie]

We don't get a lot of guys.

[Catherine]

Not for lack of trying.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, we always wonder, like, why don't guys tell their stories more? And I really liked talking to this guest today, and I think you guys will really like him, too. He's very well spoken. And, yeah, we kind of get into that a little bit. So I think you'll like it. But I want to also, firstly thank you guys for being here and for writing in and telling us your stories, and also just for being so supportive of our guests. So I think you'll do the same with our guest today.

[Catherine]

And thank you so much for sharing our show. We'll talk about it. But a really special thing with Nick, our guest. He found out about us through somebody helping him through his journey. It was like, hey, you gotta listen to this podcast. And it's helped him. So keep sharing and it means the world, not just to us. But. Yeah, what else is going on? Merch. If you want to really rep the.

[Mackenzie]

Show, Merch Dating Detectives, the new Dating Detectives merch is available through Wednesday.

[Catherine]

Just Wednesday. Yeah, it's in the link, is in the show notes. We've got some fun stuff. We've got hats, mugs, we've got safety alarms, the sweatsuit, the T shirt. And there will be, you know, we'll do more stuff down the road, but right now, this is all we got and until Wednesday, So get it while it's hot.

[Mackenzie]

Get it while it's hot. And also our Patreon got first access to the merch, which I think is so cool if you're not a Patreon or yet it's only $5 a month to join. And just a quick note, we find that some of the people that are signing up for the Patreon, it's charging them, is charging seven Dollars and fifty cents. We are investigating and getting to the bottom of it. It should be only $5, so.

[Catherine]

So thank you for letting us know.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, so we're. We're. Our very. Our very great team of. Molly is looking into it.

[Catherine]

Well, actually, we've reached out to Patreon. I know she has.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, let's.

[Catherine]

If anyone knows anyone at Patreon, please let us know because we're trying to get. Get a hold of them. But yeah, if it says 750, let us know because it shouldn't.

[Mackenzie]

But anyways, when you sign up for the Patreon, you get the two bonus episodes a month and you get like, things like early access to merch. And then we have a live, like, live monthly where we can. We can go live and connect with each other. And we have the book club.

[Catherine]

Book club. We're reading the Perfect Marriage by July.

[Mackenzie]

Rose just finished it today.

[Catherine]

You did? Oh, my gosh. I can't wait to talk to you about it.

[Mackenzie]

I know. It's going to be so cool. I cannot wait. It's going to be awesome.

[Catherine]

I have a friend who gave it to me. And then I got like, my boyfriend's whole. Like, his dad read it. I think his dad's come in a book. I'm like, this is the. The episode of more men getting into the dating detectives, y'all. Let's go. Shout out to our male listeners because we need all of you on board in this hunt for dogfish, shall we?

[Mackenzie]

Uh, are you. Are you ready to get into it?

[Catherine]

Oh, well, I guess we should just warn people. This story definitely gets into some deep mental health moments that are really tough. And he. I'm just very grateful. He's so transparent about his whole experience and how it affected him.

[Mackenzie]

We kind of talk about it a lot where people talk about how they get to a point where they feel they're not worthy of this life anymore. And so that. That is a good trigger warning to put out there that this guy got to the point where he just was not. He was having a hard time. So just letting you guys know. But, yeah, I'm. I'm dying for you guys to hear his story.

[Catherine]

We love Nick. Yeah, let's turn it over to.

[Mackenzie]

And let's do it. So I'm. You guys, I'm so. Nick, will you please start at the beginning? We need to know all the things. Take it away.

[Nick]

Okay. Well, I'm just a kid that's freshly out of high school. I went away to college. Kind of wasted a year. There wasn't really getting anywhere doing what I want to do in life. But I still had some other buddies, really close high school friends that went to state college that was, you know, about equal distance away from home. So I spent a great deal of time down there. And I was basically just still working on my uncle's cattle farm the whole time.

[Catherine]

Nice. Molly didn't give us much, but she was like, he's like, farm. I knew, I knew we had a farm background. And I was like, oh, I'm reading like a romance novel right now. I wonder if this is a farmer character.

[Nick]

Definitely, for sure. Farm boy. Grew up on a farm and kept working on my uncle's farm. It was a way bigger operation. So, yeah, I did that for probably about 10 years anyways. But, you know, I still had touch with friends here back home that I partied with down at state college. Oh, man. I mean, you want to talk about a good time? I'd load up in the car on Friday night when I got off work, head down there, and I wouldn't come back home till Sunday night because it was just an absolute ride. I mean, you're early 20s, that's what you're supposed to do, right?

[Mackenzie]

Yep, yep.

[Nick]

So I just again, random weekend, I'm at this party, music blaring, drinks everywhere. They had a bar in the, in the foyer and it was pretty wild. At one point during a party, I just happened to glance. I mean, it's nice outdoors, open. I glance over, there's this really cute blonde chick standing in the doorway. She's got her arms crossed behind her back and she's talking to somebody. And as I glanced over, so I'm talking to somebody, I just noticed she's just staring at me like, like even mouth open. Oh, okay, okay. Interesting.

[Catherine]

The eyes.

[Nick]

Interesting. Obviously she hasn't seen me before. I haven't seen her before. So anyways, I continue on being rowdy, funny, obnoxious, like any young 20 year old is. And as the night goes on, I just kind of keep glancing over. She's still milling around, but every time I actually notice it's her and I glance over, I'm like, okay, she's still looking at me every time I look. So I was like, okay. I'm like, I am so naive when it comes to that stuff. I mean, you bet. Gotta hit me with a brick to get me to notice that. But I did notice that. Then I started asking buddies at the, at the party, I'm like, hey, I'm like, who's that? Who's that cute blonde chick over there. And they're like, oh, that's Jen. She's with your best buddy from high school. I was like, oh. She never said anything about her, but I'm like, okay. So obviously I'm like, thought she's really making the eyes, but off limits. Yeah, that's my best. My best buddy. I'm not gonna, you know, just kind of horn in and try and spoil something he's got going. So she disappeared at some point. I continue on with being, you know, a young male obnoxious drunk the whole night. Just. That was why I was there for the whole weekend. Eventually, you know, I always hung out at my buddy's place, and when I go down there and obviously we branch out from their party bars, stuff like that. And obviously, since they had a thing, she was spending more time there. Obviously, we just became friends by association. She seemed like a really cool chick. Good time, good sense of humor. So we partied a whole time at college together. Obviously, she was always around here and there. I mean, you know, obviously didn't see her every single time I was there. But she was still a frequent, frequent person that we went with.

[Catherine]

Yeah, she was in the crew.

[Nick]

So we go through all the college years and stuff like that. And my buddy actually graduated a year ahead of when Jen did. She was a year behind us. And obviously we lost touch. I still stayed in touch with my Benny. Even my buddy from school, even though he'd moved off to a larger metropolitan area for his new job, we stayed in contact. He still talks to me. And I obviously, I hadn't talked to her since school. End up running into her at my buddy's wedding.

[Mackenzie]

And I went to the same wedding. And you. You guys both went to the same wedding and you saw her there?

[Nick]

Mm. I mean, I was in a relationship at the time. I was there with my date. I ran into her. Obviously, I recognized her right away. She's there, big smiles. How the hell are you? She introduces me to her boyfriend. I meet him. I'm like, well, hi. You know. And then after that, we just continued on with the night, having a good time. And this wedding would have been fall of 2007.

[Mackenzie]

So. And when did you meet her? What year was it then?

[Nick]

She would have began school in 2001, so that's probably when I met her for the first time down there. It.

[Mackenzie]

Okay, so it's been several years now.

[Catherine]

Yeah, it's like a little reunion.

[Mackenzie]

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[Nick]

So obviously we hit it off and we're remembering the old times, reminisce and stuff like that. But anyways, I don't know whether I had her phone number. I very possibly did, or I'd gotten it there and nothing happens. I'm in my own relationships. But either way, whatever reason, I don't know, I. I must have started calling her or she messaged me. I'm not a thousand percent how that started, but a lot of times what would happen was I would go out, have some cocktails with friends or something like that. I come home bored, nothing to do, and I just call her up.

[Mackenzie]

I'm like, with feelings or just like.

[Nick]

Kind of chilling to shoot the breeze, you know?

[Mackenzie]

No feelings at this point. Like, honestly, no, absolutely not.

[Nick]

I'm just like, what are you up to?

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Nick]

And. And then we just talk and, well, I got a few cocktails in me. I'm pretty damn funny.

[Catherine]

You're not too bad without them.

[Mackenzie]

I'm like a funny guy.

[Nick]

She's giggling all the time and stuff like that, but no, it's just good times and Then a week or two passed or got. I don't. I couldn't even tell you the frequency. It really wasn't that big of a thing. But it kept continuing on, and then.

[Mackenzie]

I was having fun.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Mackenzie]

But she's still with the guy, right?

[Nick]

Yeah, so I'm assuming so. And then I think we started sending messages back and forth, and then these phone calls and text messages, they just increase in frequency. And I think, you know, at some point, we're. We're probably texting every single day.

[Mackenzie]

Wow.

[Nick]

And I mean, it's not a giant volume, but it's still just like. She still was just like one of my buds. Right. We just talk every day. There's no feelings. There's no sexually window innuendo.

[Catherine]

The modern day, like, is sending memes. It's just when you, like, have that person that you're like, I'm just going to send them funny videos and funny memes.

[Nick]

The advent of that.

[Catherine]

Yeah, yeah.

[Nick]

And I do remember at one point she said, well, Mark asked me to marry him. I'm like, shut the front door. And I go, and. And she goes, well, there's a ring on my finger. I'm like, oh, dude. I'm like, congrats. That's awesome.

[Mackenzie]

So you were genuinely happy for her?

[Nick]

I was. I mean, we were just friends, so I'm like, that's awesome. I'm like, when's the wedding? She's like, no date pitch. This is real fresh. She goes, I just had to tell you. I'm like, well, I'm like, dude, that's awesome. That's awesome. At some point, even though now she's engaged, she would. I would say, hey, we got. We got this going on. I mean, obviously, you know, she lives in a bigger town about, I don't know, 90 minutes away from me, and I just live out in the country. But I would say, hey, we're gonna go do this this weekend. Whether it be, you know, we're gonna go float the river or, you know, maybe we're gonna go do something in town. Maybe there's an event, stuff like that. I'm like, you want to come out and party? She's like, actually, I am free. And I'm like, well, come out. It's gonna be a hoot. So she would come out and she would stay and.

[Catherine]

With you?

[Nick]

Yeah, yeah, she'd stay here. And again, it was just friends.

[Catherine]

And you never. Did you ever meet this fiance?

[Nick]

I did. Well, when they were dating, I met them at that wedding in.

[Catherine]

Right, right.

[Nick]

But that was the only time I'd ever met the guy. And, I mean, she did talk about him here and there, about stuff that they were doing, etc.

[Mackenzie]

But you guys had never hooked up at this point?

[Nick]

No, no. Never. Timber. Touched each other? Nothing. Just.

[Catherine]

Yeah, we just.

[Nick]

We just. We vibe and had chemistry and just had the best time all the time. So this continues on for, golly, two. Two years. She would come out every now and then. Not a ton, but in, know, a few times during the summer, maybe once during the winter, even if it was awful out here. And we would just. Sometimes it was just us. And we'd watch movies, play drinking games, like, kitchen table. And we just had a blast together. We really did. And again, you know, go to bed, don't touch each other. I get up, I'm like, do you got time for breakfast? I make her breakfast, she goes home.

[Catherine]

Just friends.

[Mackenzie]

That's so nice of you. That's cool. Okay.

[Nick]

And then we continue on texting. Well, anyways, somehow the date for the wedding is picked. It's. I was told, October, like Halloween. She's a huge Halloween fan. She's gonna get married on Halloween.

[Catherine]

I'm like, little spooky wedding.

[Nick]

Awesome. It would have been about June. Ish. And I said, well, I go, you need to get the hell down here for a weekend, a full one, and party with me and all my buddies and have one big old last hoorah for you before you get hitched. And she's like, are you throwing me your own bachelorette party? And I said, yes.

[Catherine]

I love that. A bro. Bachelorette.

[Nick]

Yeah. She comes out and obviously we. We tear it up and we have a riot. So then obviously we still text every single day, just, you know, making each other laugh, having a great time, just whatever. We just vibe so well. And then sometime, maybe early fall of that year of 2010, she tells me. She's like, well, that was a weekend I wish I could forget. I'm like, what's up? And she's like, well, me and Mark were down at a baseball game in a major city, and Mark is the fiance. Correct.

[Catherine]

Okay.

[Nick]

Correct. And she said him and his friends have this thing that they like to do. They like to get drunk. And she said they like to actually go into a bar and, like, deliberately, like, try and start a fight. She's like, he's been doing this for a while. And obviously. I mean, long story short, apparently this has been an ongoing pattern, and she hasn't really told me this until now, of just drunken, childish behavior. And she's confiding in me, and I'm just trying to be supportive and sweet. I was just like, you know, ultimately, I'm like, if this has been an ongoing pattern and you just don't feel like this is going to change, maybe this isn't the guy. So anyways, she's distraught, but, you know, we change topics, and I know we still text every day. She still seems in good spirits. Then I think at one point I'm like, you know, none of my business, but did you work things out with Mark? And she said, well, since you've asked, the wedding is off, and he's moved out.

[Mackenzie]

What? So she did break. Did she break it off? Okay.

[Nick]

So I'm like, well, I'm really sorry.

[Mackenzie]

She's like, were you excited, though, secretly, or no.

[Catherine]

Yeah. What did you feel?

[Nick]

I don't know. Maybe there was a sliver of me that was. Because it's like, I felt like I was gonna. That she got hitched and we'd grow apart again because we had so much fun together and we just loved being around each other just because we always made each other laugh. We just vibed so well. I could think. I could kind of start to see if there definitely was some there, but I'm like, either way, she's still not available, but all right. So with her new freedom since the wedding was off and. And he'd moved out, she starts spending a lot more time out here and just partying with us, my friends. And again, it was still platonic. We just had a great time together. And this had gone on, I don't know, after she broke up with them, you know, early fall of 2010 into probably late 2010 to early. Very, very early 2011. I'm not a thousand percent on.

[Catherine]

So you'd known each other a long time at this point?

[Nick]

Yeah. Even though we had that little hiatus between school and when we met back up on my buddy's wedding. But, I mean, we went up to visit my sister, who lived about three hours away from us.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, you went together to visit your sister?

[Nick]

Yeah, we went up there because it was a football game. Football team. And it was an away game, but we just went to their town because they were. That was the hometown. So we went there and party together and stuff like that. And then there were a couple of instances, I guess, because I think during this time of her being available that I think there was. Well, I'm so naive, but I think it was probably obvious to anybody else that there was clearly some tension building there with the feelings.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah. Yeah. Sure.

[Nick]

And I did notice maybe a couple of little things, but I just stuffed them down. I'm like, you know, I'm like, I just don't. I don't. You know, I don't think she's really that into me, and that's okay. And she told me years later that there were a couple of things I'd done during that time that were innocuous to me, but they were things that just give the girl the butterflies and melt her heart. Like that instance when we went to that football game in the town where my sister lived. We had to run across the street really quick, and it wasn't in a crosswalk. And you saw the window and you just said, go. But you said. When you said, go, you grabbed my hand. You know, make sure she got across with us and ended up on the other side and.

[Catherine]

Which seems basic to you, but I get it where she's like, oh, I did.

[Nick]

Because I didn't see that as, you know, again, I think I was probably having feelings that I was ignoring.

[Catherine]

This is annoying, because I am really locked into this romance, and I know it's going to end badly, and I feel like this is a Hallmark movie I want to see.

[Nick]

Well, there was probably a million other things she never told me. It was probably just little stuff like that that I was doing that I didn't even realize I was doing. But it was totally given to the butterflies. But there was still some tension, I think, on my end of the deal, too. But I'm just like, I don't think she's into me. And who knows, she might get back with, you know, Mark. I'm like, you know, I'm. I'm not gonna push it because we're friends.

[Catherine]

Were you afraid that would mess up the friendship?

[Nick]

A. A little bit. But obviously there was some tension building. And when that. That boiled over one time when she was out here probably for at least an evening, or maybe it was a whole weekend, I don't even remember. But we were. We partied all night. Whatever. We're still in the same bed together. Never laid a hand on her. And she's laying on her side facing me. I'm on my back, and we're just laying in bed shooting the breeze. I'm making her laugh, and I'm like, well, probably gonna cook you breakfast, and then you. You can get the hell home. And whatever reason, I'm just like. I had to change positions, but I rolled over towards her to face her on my side, and doing. So I put my hand on her thigh and hip. And I froze in horror. What the f are you doing? I'm like, don't do this. What are you doing? I don't even know why I touched her, but I'm like. So I freaked out, and I jumped out of bed, and I'm like, okay. I'm like, well, what do we want for breakfast?

[Catherine]

Oh, my gosh, this is a movie.

[Nick]

So a little bit awkward, but we still have breakfast. We still talk, we giggle a little bit. She heads out, and I don't imagine she was that far down the road. And she's like, well, do you want to talk about this morning? And I'm just like, damn it.

[Mackenzie]

No, I definitely do not want to talk about this morning.

[Catherine]

I want to talk about the morning.

[Nick]

I'm like, I'm sorry. I don't know why I did that. And she's like, well, you really, really freaked out. I go, I'm not going to hide that from you. I'm like, I absolutely did. And she said, well, we can talk about that, but she's like, we can talk about the rest of it, too. And I'm like, do tell. She's like, well, obviously there's kind of been some feelings floating around a little bit. I'm like, I've noticed. I just chose not to act on them and.

[Mackenzie]

Because you thought you were doing the right thing.

[Nick]

Yeah. But then, you know, finally, we keep talking about it over the course of the next week or two. I mean, obviously, we text every single day. There's probably still phone calls on the weekends or something for the fun of it. But, yeah, we. We finally both kind of admitted our own truths and the elephant in the room, that there was probably way more feelings floating around than we were both stuffing them down and didn't want to admit to each other. And I do remember at one point saying to me, she said, nick, if I have the chance to keep you as a friend for my whole life or sleep with you and risk losing you forever, I choose to stay your friend forever. I'm like, that's probably a smart decision.

[Mackenzie]

But was that her rejecting you, you think? Or do you think she was. No, it was.

[Nick]

It was like that. But at the same time, at that point, like, in me, I'm just like, I have to. I'm like, I've gotta try and pursue this. This just feels so right. So.

[Catherine]

But it's a nice indication that the stakes are high, that it's like, it would be so sad if this doesn't work.

[Nick]

Well, I mean, we talked a lot about it, more than most people do. Instead of just acting on it, we talked it over a lot, and it was just like, yeah. So she admitted that she'd had feelings. I admitted that I did, and I was just stuffing them down. We were totally ignoring everything, and we talked it all over, and we decided that it was worth the risk. And there was just so much chemistry. It's like, jeez, we at least gotta give this a spin, you know? Gotta try.

[Catherine]

This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. I heard the best story about BetterHelp in the wild. I was at Trader Joe's. I was at the grocery store, and I was checking out, and I did. I overshared. The person at Trader Joe's was like, hey, what do you have going on today? Anything fun?

[Mackenzie]

And.

[Catherine]

And I was like, I have therapy. Which I didn't need to say, but I don't have a filter. And then we started talking about therapy. They were like, you know, my sister has the best therapist that she was just telling me about, and it was somebody totally unexpected, and I loved it. They matched my oversharing. They were like, this therapist was not who they thought they would connect with. He was like a older, big dude. And she's. I don't know, she just was skeptical at first, but she has never been happier. I hear about this therapy, and I'm just so happy for her. Like, therapy is amazing. And I was like, oh, I love my therapist, too. That's great. Where did she find this guy? And they said, what's that? It's called Better. Like, what's that thing online? And I was like, better help. And sure enough, it was BetterHelp. Better Help makes therapy super accessible. And that's why I'm very excited that we get to talk to you about it. You've probably heard about it, but truly, I think everybody could benefit from therapy. No matter what you've been through or what you're going through, even if things are looking up, even if you're feeling great, it's nice to have that relationship established for when you might need somebody that knows what you've been through. And let's talk numbers, because traditional in person therapy can cost anywhere from a hundred to $250 per session, sometimes more. That adds up so fast. But better help. Online therapy, you can save on average up to 50% per session. You pay a flat fee for weekly sessions, and it just should feel accessible. It shouldn't feel like a luxury. It's online, it's flexible. If you need to change your schedule or do it at a weird time because of your job that's available. You are also easily able to switch therapists within the BetterHelp system. I benefit from therapy. I see my therapist weekly and I see her online and it works great. They have over 30,000 therapists, so BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform, having served over 5 million people globally. I think your mental health is worth the investment. Your well being is worth it. Visit betterhelp.com TDD today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp. H E L p.com TDD.

[Nick]

So she comes out again for a weekend hangout. But at the same time there was this awkward tension. Like, well, this isn't going to be your normal hangout.

[Catherine]

Yeah, that's so much pressure. Oh my gosh.

[Nick]

It was, it was. And you know what? I don't even remember. I remember we went upstairs. She's. She's sitting on the edge of the bed. I'm just standing there and it's just. I mean, the, the awkward tension. You could just cut it with a knife. And I just looked down at her. I'm just like, we're doing this, I guess, right? And I remember she. I think she grabbed me by the hips or something like that and pulled me on top where we started making out. And brain went black after that, but it was out of this world. Amazing. Just incredible to like actually really have, really have all those feels in the room and just, I mean, remarkable. And then, you know, it's over and we're both catching our breath and she just says, you know, holy shit, Nick. I didn't think it was going to be like that, but I'm like, me neither.

[Catherine]

I guess you guys are down bad now.

[Nick]

Holy cow. Holy cow.

[Catherine]

Can I ask? This is such a trope in romance where it's like the friends forever finally get to be together. I have not personally experienced that. Like, how did you feel? I would imagine it's just so overwhelming. Like, yes, it's good and surprising, but also this is like monumentally life changing. Far more than like a first date that goes well.

[Nick]

Oh, yeah, definitely. Obviously with all that stuff that I'd been kind of stuffing away. And then we made this jump to become intimate. Obviously I'd been in several relationships over my life and they all didn't work out and came to an end. And it's just, we just weren't compatible. But here with our history, we'd already been kind of, I guess, like pretend test dating, you know?

[Catherine]

Yeah, that.

[Nick]

The whole time. And it was just like, the chemistry's off the charts, and we just clicked so well. There was never a silence. It was always like. You just bring up anything absurd, and boom, conversation just flows.

[Catherine]

Oh, I'm so mad that you're here. I really want this to work out.

[Nick]

Keep going, keep going. Where are we here? So obviously the sex has started. Obviously, with the distance. She was still getting out here to see me. It might have been much as like, once or twice a month early on, and then there maybe be times where, you know, it might be. It might have been two months till I would see her. But then again, she's coming out, still texting every day. Oh, absolutely, Absolutely. Add volume, add volume. Sharing every everyday thoughts and what are you doing today? I'm doing this, like, holy crap, let me see it. You know, stuff like that, just. And we shared every part of our days with each other, whether it was boring or exciting. So this just continues on. And we really haven't defined anything, I guess, other than. I mean, we're seen in public. It's obvious to everybody, you know, what's going on. And so she just keeps coming out and spending time with me. And, yeah, I mean, in a backhanded way, I probably mentioned she's my girlfriend. I may even actually use those words. And that was never a term that was rejected. The pet name started. You know, call each other bae, baby deer, that kind of thing. And she's still coming out, spending time, sometimes maybe full weekend sometimes, you know, just maybe in an afternoon and evening and part of the next day before, she'd go back home and I'd offer to come up, spend time with her, but she's just like, no. She goes, I absolutely love it out there. It is so beautiful. It's.

[Catherine]

I didn't even think about that. You don't visit her as much.

[Nick]

No.

[Catherine]

Forever.

[Nick]

No, I didn't. She's like. She was very passionate. I want to come out and spend time with you. She goes, it is so beautiful out there. It is quiet. I'm out of town because there's literally, there's nobody here. You open up the windows at night in the summer, you hear frogs and crickets, and that's it. So she was very, very into that. And obviously I'm like, I'll honor your wish, but I'm like, I'll happily come spend, you know, the night with you or whatever. She's like, no. She goes, I need to get the heck out of this town. And she goes, and your house Is my happy place. So even with this relationship being long distance and granted, there were. There were some. Some droughts where maybe I wouldn't get to see her for, you know, two, three months or something like that. And then maybe I'd see her, you know, maybe cook up a couple times in a month, and then maybe another drought or something like that. You know, it was just. It was sporadic, but still regular. And we kept talking to each other, and she. Several times throughout this whole relationship, she had asked me, did I still talk to so and so an ex of my past who I fooled around with a little bit, even after our relationship was over, leading up to me and Jen getting serious. And there was actually another one, too, that she'd asked about, like, do you still talk to them?

[Catherine]

Yeah. She's, like, feeling out if y'all are exclusive or not.

[Nick]

I said, I will be honest with you. I go, I do still talk to the one. But what that consists of is I wish her a happy birthday, and then she will wish me a happy birthday. That is pretty much the beginning and end of that conversation.

[Mackenzie]

So no daily talks like you do.

[Catherine]

You're just on. Good.

[Nick]

No, I told her they, you're the only woman in my eyes more times than there's stars in the skies. So, I mean, I made that very abundantly clear that I'm like, yeah. And at some point, I'm like, the science is settled. I'm like, this, this. I am so deep in with her that there's just no turning around.

[Mackenzie]

So just giving her that reassurance.

[Nick]

Yeah. Yeah. And so, yeah, the relationship continues, and.

[Catherine]

We keep, you know, Would you say, I love you?

[Nick]

Yeah. Yeah. And this continued on for years.

[Catherine]

Wait, when you said years, how many years is this going on?

[Nick]

Years.

[Catherine]

Like, two, five, eight. Eight years. Long distance?

[Nick]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Catherine]

Wow. And you would sometimes see each other consistently? Sometimes a little bit less.

[Nick]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Mackenzie]

And during that time, was there anybody else in your life or anybody else in her life?

[Nick]

No.

[Mackenzie]

Y'all were just together long distance for eight years?

[Nick]

Yeah. Holy.

[Catherine]

Okay, I need to hear more about that. So did you. Did you. How are you feeling about, like, getting married, having kids? Were you thinking about that?

[Nick]

But that did get brought up, but I think that was. God, I think that was very early on. And she didn't ask me, how do you feel about marriage and kids and stuff like that? I'm just like. I told her. I'm like, I don't. I don't even know if I ever want to be married. And I'm like, And right now the kids thing is like a no. But I, at that time I had a sister that had two kids and then I had another sister that had eight.

[Catherine]

Oh, you were an uncle.

[Nick]

Holidays at mom and dads were a mad house and all those kids running around screaming. I mean, for me at that age when I just enjoyed the freedom of not being tied down, no responsibility. When I go there to that, that absolute crazy thing of all those kids running around at once, it's like, it's good.

[Catherine]

Birth control.

[Nick]

It was a birth control PSA every time at moms. So that kind of shied me away from that because it's like I'd leave there like, what a nightmare. She'd asked about that and we talked about it. I'm just like, yeah, I just don't feel I'm ready.

[Mackenzie]

Really. Okay.

[Nick]

She'd asked a couple other times over the years, like, you know, not about the marriage thing so much, but she'd asked about the kids, like, do you still feel the need or you still feel like you'd ever want kids? And I said, I'm like, I just don't even know if I'm a mature enough an adult to bring a child in the world.

[Mackenzie]

But I'm like, I'm a 30 year old child myself.

[Catherine]

Yeah, no kidding. That's a mature thing to recognize.

[Nick]

Yeah. I'm pretty sure every parent you ever talk to will tell you, like, you're never ready. You just do it. So I'm just like, I don't know if I'm even ready to do that, but I'm like. And then even the later years, that question had come up again and I said, I go, I don't know specifically, I'm like, I feel like it's getting a little later for me in my years, but I'm like, but the desire to mentor young kids is there. I do enjoy that because obviously my friends around me all have little ones and stuff like that. We're taking them out hunting and fishing and I've got nephews and nieces. And so I'm like, I'm the cool uncle. It's like, yeah, we can go do.

[Mackenzie]

That, you know, and then give him back.

[Nick]

She's like, she's like, oh. She's like, you're such a cool uncle. You're the Funkle. The Funkle.

[Catherine]

Yes, the Funkle.

[Nick]

She's like, you're so sweet.

[Catherine]

So she agree with you? She was kind of on the same page with kids.

[Nick]

She did, actually. She's just like, no. She goes, I Don't think I want to. And from the moment I met her, she had some health concerns. She actually told me that she'd actually got pregnant, I believe, like, very tail end of high school. And then she'd ended up losing the pregnancy a couple of months in, and for whatever reason, they found that to be fishy. So they get checking some stuff out, and she's got a brain tumor near her pituitary gland. That's right in the middle of your head. I'm like, not a great place to have one of those. So they did surgery to remove that, probably back when we were just friends. And. Well, anyways, obviously they're keeping monitor on that. And she also had cysts on her ovaries, and obviously they went in and removed those.

[Mackenzie]

And this is for real stories like, this isn't pretend. We've had some pretend, like, diseases and. But this. This was for real.

[Nick]

Yeah. Yeah, these were for real. These are for real. I mean, I know that she showed me a picture of the scans and stuff like that, because the cyst thing kind of kept happening. You know, you'd go a little while, and it's like, there's a bunch more popped up. We got to go in.

[Catherine]

Yeah.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Catherine]

The most painful thing.

[Nick]

Yeah. And I mean, I know. I mean, I'm laying in bed and I'm tracing my fingers on the little bitty scars on each side of her abdomen where they went in to, you know, take them out. And then the brain surgery thing, obviously they're monitoring that. It's getting bigger and it's affecting things. I know there. There was a really long while where she told me that she didn't get her period. So, I mean, it's right by the pituitary gland that's going to mess up hormones and all that kind of jazz.

[Mackenzie]

Yep.

[Catherine]

Wow.

[Nick]

At one point, she was talking to me about it, that she's going to go in and they're going to do another surgery. I'm like, okay. I'm like, well, like, they feel like they're going to get it all this time, and maybe this will be the end of it. Or, you know, what's the plan forward? She's like, they said, I got a 50.50shot of making it. I'm like, oh, please.

[Mackenzie]

No, I know that devastated you.

[Catherine]

Oh, my God.

[Nick]

I don't even really want her to do it. My brain's telling me, you found your forever person. And it's just like. And son of a. She might lose her.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Nick]

So. Oh, I didn't. I didn't handle it appropriately as I should have. And she kind of sensed that, and she kind of pulled back a little bit from telling me all of the details and stuff like that.

[Mackenzie]

Because you weren't being supportive like she wanted you to be.

[Nick]

No, I. Supportive. It's just. But maybe not as supportive as I should have been because it just. It freaked me out.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Catherine]

So overwhelmed. Yeah.

[Nick]

She's got this 50, 50 shot at the second brain surgery.

[Catherine]

Were you invited? Like, were you ever?

[Nick]

I did ask. I did ask.

[Catherine]

Yeah. I'm like, do you want me to be there?

[Nick]

No, I don't want you there freaking out in front of my family if this goes south.

[Mackenzie]

I'm just like, her family knew about you, right? Like, they all know that you're in a relationship or this is something that you.

[Nick]

I have. I have met them. But when the surgery was taking place, her sister had her phone and was texting me some updates.

[Catherine]

Okay, so you're fully in. Like, they know you are boyfriend.

[Nick]

I'm not a secret. At least far as I know.

[Catherine]

Good information to know. All of this does conceptualize, though, why it is comfortable to be in a long distance thing. Like, there's a lot going on. There's a lot of unknown. You trust each other, you're comfortable, and you're not necessarily focused on the future yet.

[Nick]

No, no, we want.

[Catherine]

Because at first I was like, eight years.

[Nick]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Catherine]

So, I mean, somebody's got to make some moves.

[Nick]

Back in, like, 2011, when we started this, making this physical. Jan is a voracious reader. She used to get her nose in a book about any free time she has. And then this is when Amazon started coming onto the map. Well, talking to my. My buddy's wife. And she's also a big reader, and she's like, well, you can get a Amazon prime account, and then you basically have access to like, the whole library. So I'm like, oh, dude, this is a slam dunk. So I buy her Amazon Prime. I'm like, oh, here you go, babe.

[Catherine]

I'm like, that's a love language right there.

[Nick]

Happy birthday. And obviously at some point, Amazon becomes something else than just books. And then after that, we shared this Amazon account, and both our cards are in there, address in there. We're buying stuff sometimes for each other, sometimes just for ourselves. And then we look at the order history and you make crap out of the other one for buying something weird. Like, what the hell is that for? Yeah, you know, just. Just giving each other crap, stuff like that.

[Mackenzie]

100%.

[Catherine]

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[Mackenzie]

Was there at any point where you felt so strongly about her that you wanted to marry her and, like, wanted.

[Nick]

To be like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I did. I did. Me and her went to a concert. I found out through a friend that there was a Counting Crows concert that was going to be played in a barn. So I took her to there, and it was amazing. But I remember they started playing the beginning riff of Round Here by Crows. And I think she remembered telling me one other time, too, she's like, yeah, that song started and you just reached down and you grabbed my hand. And then we just looked at each other for a minute and then we just looked back at the band and I just held her hand. So that song always, always hit hard for us. I mean, she would get up earlier than I would in the morning, go to the gym, and she'd send me a picture. Like, it was playing on XM Radio. I really like, yeah, Crows. I'm like, Good Music Day. And there was other, other, other songs that were like that. But, yeah, and I told her, like, at the end, you know, this doesn't end great. But I did tell her that I had many fantasies of dancing with you at our wedding. To Round Here by Crows.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, boy.

[Nick]

So, yeah, so, no, it was in the back of my mind. But obviously, obviously, with the distance and stuff like that and things weren't getting, like, better towards the end, I'm like, I'm not gonna buy a ring. Just out of nowhere.

[Catherine]

Were you frustrated by that at all?

[Nick]

Not really, because it was just like, it's there. I still have her. It's just, this is an idea. We joked around all the time that this relationship is messed Up. I'm like, it is, but it's rewarding. It is.

[Catherine]

It was rewarded.

[Nick]

So good. Yeah. We couldn't stand to not talk to each other.

[Mackenzie]

You can't ignore how well you're clicking, basically.

[Nick]

Oh, yeah. It was so obvious. And I'm like. I said, I'm pretty oblivious to that kind of crap. So then in 2018, she tells me that the cancer has come back, and this time it's stage three. So I'm not seeing Henry anymore after this goes on. Late, late 2018.

[Catherine]

Wait, you said you're not seeing her anymore?

[Nick]

No, she was mentally not well, given her not great news. She's always had some issues with anxiety and things like that. And obviously there was some fights and some friction about. I wanted her to obviously spend time with her. And she said, nick, I am going to therapy two to three days a week. I am heavily, heavily medicated for anxiety. I'm journaling every day, and it's a struggle to even leave my house right now.

[Catherine]

Oh, wow.

[Nick]

I'm like, I understand, babe. And I'm like, I. I'm here for you. Just talk it out. Anytime you want to talk about anything, we can talk whatever you want. We were still talking to each other every day, but she just didn't have it in her to see me in person. Like, I'm just here to help. She's like, I just can't do it right now. I'm like, it's okay. But, yeah, that kept getting brought up.

[Catherine]

But that makes sense. And you have a job. It's not like you can leave all the time to be with her anyway. But she needed that.

[Nick]

And I think around this same time, the 20. I mean, late 2017, 2018, my dad was terminal, getting really sick. He's waiting on a double lung transplant. I'm waiting to God.

[Catherine]

You are.

[Nick]

See, everybody can see the writing on the wall. His number doesn't get called pretty quick, this is going to be over with pretty fast.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Nick]

So I come home from moms and like this. That was probably the first time that it actually really, really started to get under my skin that my dad was sick. So I just come home to the garage, I start having a couple beers, and I'm talking to Jen and said, you know, babe, I'm like, I don't want my dad to get any sicker. But I said, will you do me this solid? I said, if my dad dies, I go, will you please at least come and stay with me for a couple of days for comfort? And she said, of course, babe. I'll be right there. All right. So she's still having her issues. My dad ends up getting a transplant, so. Happy story there.

[Mackenzie]

That's amazing. Is he doing well now? Oh, so sorry.

[Nick]

He gets. Ends up. He lives well for a couple years. It was great seeing him that way. He could do stuff. I mean, he had a. Idiopathic pulmonary fibrosis. So basically, like the inside of your lungs just scar up and get hard and they can't transmit blood to the oxygen or oxygen to the blood anymore. So basically he's just slowly suffocating because his lungs are junk. He gets a transplant, though, and he's just. He's great. He's doing stuff. He ends up getting chronic rejection. Anyways, he passed away April of 2020.

[Mackenzie]

And I. I am so sorry. Oh, that's so hard.

[Nick]

I mean, we've adjusted, but yeah, that's. That's. That's a milestone for people. So obviously I'm talking to Jen and she's, you know, giving me some support. And so then we make funeral arrangements and we come home. Then I remember my mom asking me. She come up to me, she grabbed my arm, and, you know, her voice is just so quiet and soft because she's so broken. And she says, nick, is Jen coming? And I'd already been told she couldn't. So then I tell my mom why, And I'm like, with the whole cancer thing, we discussed it. She is. She had the original vaccine, but she still is immunocompromised. And I'm like. I'm like, I understand if you don't want to put yourself at risk. And then she said on and on top of it, she goes, I have, like, the worst case of pink eye. Oh, and a sty on my eye. And she actually sent me a Snapchat of that. So I'm like, yeah, that's pretty bad. So I told my mom. I'm like, she can't. She's worried about COVID with her cancer. And I'm like, man, she's got pink eye really bad. She's like, okay, well, I mean, that. That. That'll come up later. The pink eye part.

[Catherine]

Okay. Did you see her at all during COVID once you. Everybody was on lockdown? Yeah.

[Nick]

No, no, no. The last time I physically saw her would have been late or probably a couple of times in 2018.

[Catherine]

Wow. So this has been long before COVID that her health has made it so that she can't come to you.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Catherine]

And what kept. Obviously, all of this health stuff is going on. But between your relationship, like, what was fulfilling enough?

[Nick]

I think the long distance thing was fine with me early on because the frequency of her visits was, I guess, probably really enough to sustain a healthy relationship and just this unbreakable bond that we had for each other, we just couldn't bear to be apart. We were in each other's minds all day, every day, and just with no escape, that was the only thing he thought about. It consumed you. So it was just as the frequency of her visits and stuff like that had dropped off, the actual communication part of it remained static and just as vibrant as ever. So I guess because I just been bonded so tightly to her and we were so close and connected, that even though the physical neglect had become to be more and more and more, it was still. She is too special to me to just bail at this point because, I mean, yeah, it's, it's silly to maintain that kind of a long distance relationship, especially when the physical neglect actually starts to become an issue. But, you know, one guy's crazy, is some other guys. She's everything I've ever dreamed of.

[Mackenzie]

Absolutely right.

[Nick]

So that was why I was so bonded to her and so deep, deeply and madly in love with her that I was willing to keep continuing to accept less just to maintain that. Because the communication part, not so much as a speed bump. It was, it remained, you know, endearing, sweet, funny, romantic, spicy. That part of it never, ever wavered. So that was always. And. And I guess I was accepting of more than I was really deserving of. But when you find your forever person, you're gonna make some big sacrifices and be totally okay with them in that moment. So.

[Catherine]

Yeah, because if you would want nothing but like, you do anything to keep them.

[Nick]

Absolutely. But still, when I would plead like, can I come see you? Or you come see me?

[Mackenzie]

She would say, no, I can't.

[Nick]

She's like, I. This effing. I'm just this crippling anxiety. She's like, seriously, I can't even function.

[Mackenzie]

In public, so she can't come see you, you can't come see her. But you're doing well, your long distance relationship.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Catherine]

Yeah.

[Mackenzie]

Okay.

[Catherine]

So there was no part of you that was like, I want to move to you.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Mackenzie]

Did you guys ever talk about moving?

[Nick]

I think she, she mentioned, like, she goes, I just don't think I could ever, like, see myself living out in the country like that.

[Mackenzie]

Did she ever offer for you to come to her and live?

[Nick]

No, we never. She's like, I. We both had our own jobs. And like, I don't know. I guess maybe we were both nervous to. To uproot to make that jump. But again, hadn't seen her since 2018. But this keeps continuing on, obviously, with. We never miss a beat. It's still, I love you, babe. Good morning, baby. All that. I would still send gifts, even though at one point she said to anxiety. She goes, I get anxiety so bad when you send me stuff. She's like, because I didn't get you anything. And she goes, it just makes me feel really weird and it upsets me. So she's like, please don't do it. I'm just like, okay. And like I said, daily chats. Everything's perfectly fine. We're still wild about each other. Can't stand and not talk to each other. So Fast forward to February 9th. This year was a Sunday. It was Super Bowl Sunday. Obviously, we've been talking all day. At some point back in. It had been after 2016, we switched over to using Facebook messenger just because we like the platform better, was easier to share things. We weren't. Weren't using the network. We aren't even Facebook friends.

[Catherine]

Why not?

[Nick]

Well, she has, like, two posts.

[Catherine]

Okay. Oh, okay.

[Mackenzie]

So she's not a big social media girl.

[Nick]

Yeah. One's a picture of me with a, like, a football MASCOT from, like, 2009, back when we were just friends. And another picture is a picture I sent her of, like, a sunset on the lake where I live. And obviously she's not a user of Facebook, so I'm like. And that I'm like, why do I need to be a friend if she doesn't use it? I have unfettered access at all hours of the day anyway.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Catherine]

That's such a guy thing to say. I feel like I would be like, I still need access to every possible way I can have access.

[Nick]

It never bothers me. Me. And I think we actually talked about it a couple of years ago and said. I'm like. I just occurred to me because I'm like, I think I might have looked at it or something. Like, you know, we're not even Facebook friends. She goes, I know a lot of people that are married that aren't Facebook friends. I'm just like. Well, I'm like, it's not a big thing for. I'm like, I don't really give a. Why.

[Catherine]

There's nothing you're missing out on. Yeah.

[Nick]

No. But then I noticed in our Facebook messenger chat, she. She changed her profile picture. It was always a. The state school mascot that's just what her profile picture was and had been that way for years. So she changed her profile picture. So I'm like, jen has a new Facebook picture. I have to go check this out. And she says, lol. Oh, Lord. So I go to Facebook. I look like, there's her picture. I'm like, she looks fantastic. And then, what a reason. I'm like, I just scroll down to see if there's any mentions or tags or whatever. And I'm like, I scroll down a little bit. I'm just like, wait a minute. I'm like, like, that looks like her ex. I'm like, well, I haven't seen that guy. And since 2007. I'm like, all right. I'm like, well, what's this guy up to? Maybe they're still friends. I don't know. But then I'm like, he's holding a little baby. I'm like, well, good for you.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, did he comment on it?

[Nick]

Well, yeah, I'm just seeing this post for the thing, but I see there's like, six pictures. So, like, I, like, click on the pictures, and I'm like, okay. I scroll. I'm like, okay, he's holding a baby. And I'm like, I'm not reading any of the texts with it. I'm just looking at these pictures. I'm like, the next picture, I'm like, appears to be what was probably likely the grandfather. And then the next picture is a picture of Jen laying in a hospital bed with the bonnet on, the IVs, the admission bracelet, and you can tell by the smile they're handing her newborn baby.

[Mackenzie]

Wait, so she had a baby and you didn't even know?

[Nick]

So then obviously I noticed she's tagged in it, and they're announcing the birth of their son, and his birthday would be late August of 2019.

[Mackenzie]

What?

[Nick]

So the kid's like 5ish, 6 now.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, wait, what day. Did you see this post? Or did you discover that she had had a baby?

[Nick]

Super Bowl Sunday. On.

[Mackenzie]

Of what year?

[Catherine]

What year?

[Nick]

This year.

[Catherine]

2020.

[Mackenzie]

Wait, have y'all been. Have y'all been talking this whole. Wait, hold on. Oh, blessed Jesus.

[Catherine]

Wait, wait. I need to know what was going through your head. So you see this picture of her getting a baby. What happened?

[Nick]

Well, first it's to die. I'm like, this isn't her. I'm like, this dude married some chick that just looked like her. And then I'm just looking and I'm like. But then the subscript pictures, since I think maybe this was a repost or something.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, God.

[Nick]

There was a subsequent pictures of Mark, Jen and this baby. And obviously he's increasing in size as these years passed. And they're at a college football game, they're. They're at a hockey game, they're a college basketball game. And then I'm like, woozy. I'm just like, well, I go, well, I think me and Jen should probably have a discussion about this.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, you think? Oh my God. I'm sorry.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Catherine]

Is that all you thought or were what was?

[Nick]

Well, obviously I'm just kind of in shock. I don't know what to think. I'm just like. For one, I'm like, you had a baby? And I'm like, and you kept it from me? But I'm like. And now I realize the kid's like like five.

[Mackenzie]

I'm like, dude, wait, but how long had it been since she had the baby? When you found out she had a baby?

[Nick]

The kid's like five. I mean, the kid was born August.

[Mackenzie]

You just now found out? Yeah, this is recent. Like recent months. Recent months ago recent.

[Nick]

We're not to two months yet since I found out.

[Mackenzie]

Wait, and y'all have had. Whoa, bro. Okay, so wait, and what year did you meet her?

[Nick]

2011, 2001 in college. We separated and met her in 2007 and then we kind of become friends. And then like 2000, end of 2010, early 11. We made it a thing and we were intimate all the way up until the pregnancy.

[Mackenzie]

And wait, so have. And then after the. Since the pregnancy, the kid's like five and you guys are still in a relationship?

[Nick]

Well, I guess over the, over the phone, talking every single day non stop.

[Mackenzie]

Almost 15 years and she has a baby that you didn't know about.

[Nick]

She has a whole other life that I don't know about.

[Catherine]

So how do we find out about the details? Do we go to her immediately? What do you do?

[Nick]

After I found that out, I just text her back. I said, well, I regret looking now. I go, being nosy wasn't really good for me. And she says, lol. Why? I said, well, I see you had a baby. Well, she replies, and that's it.

[Catherine]

Who does she think she is?

[Nick]

So then a little bit later, I said, well, just finding out you're the other guy and you started a family years ago and you've been led on for this long, I was kind of hoping for a little more than. And she said, I know I have 8,000 things to say to you right now. She's like, I didn't know how to let you go. Okay, so we have this text exchange. She leaves me on read for a couple of days because I'm like, is. Is there any. Are things looking any better on me getting some closure here? She told me, I'm not ignoring you. I'm just trying to get my thoughts together too. And that was kind of her.

[Catherine]

Right. Sorry.

[Nick]

That was kind of her way. However, I'm trying to play cool. My life's falling apart. I'm just like, I'm still in shock over this.

[Catherine]

What's your day to day during these three days? Are you going to work? What are you.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Catherine]

Thinking.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And just absolute.

[Catherine]

Are you talking to people?

[Nick]

Yeah. Well, okay, so we had a little exchange that night. I didn't sleep at all that night. I was up all night. Luckily, I had already had Monday scheduled off after the Super Bowl. I told my mom. She kind of keeps it together, but she's wicked pissed. As far as the Facebook thing goes.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Catherine]

How did she think that she was going to get away with that?

[Nick]

Well, she was very, very careful. That's why she wasn't a big user, because anything that was ever posted or she was tagged in had to be approved by her. And then my sister explained to me and showed me that, no, she goes, here, she goes, I do it to my boss. And she goes, okay, so this is a tag of me, of me and my kids. And you can see how it is okay to be viewed by friends and family only. And obviously, she must be a friend to her boss on Facebook. But then she can specifically, like, pick his name, hide from associates of and associates of, so him and his whole circle will be excluded. So all of my friends are friends with her on Facebook, even though I am not. But none of them could see anything at all on her Facebook profile that would tip them off that she has this whole other life. So nobody will. Nobody will tell. Nobody will tell Nick that I have this whole other life that I'm hiding from him. And then further digging for best I can tell, she got married in June of 2016. My mom found an obituary for his grandfather. 2012, in the spring, she was listed next to his name as, you know, significant other.

[Catherine]

So they'd been together all that time.

[Nick]

She was my date for a wedding in the fall of 2011, and she was a date for my wedding, another wedding in the fall of 2012. So I'm a mess in the days after discovering this. And me and my mom and my sisters are doing research, trying to figure it Out. And then finally she texts me and she's ready to have a conversation. I guess when she finally opened up and started talking, she's like, I'll try and paraphrase the best what I can from my memory without just reading.

[Catherine]

You don't have to paraphrase.

[Nick]

I'm like, I've been up all night. I'm like, to find out that you went to this level to lie and deceived someone that you obviously carried feelings for. And I'm like, why would you do this? I'm like, there had to been a million off ramps for you to take, and you blew by every effing one of them to end this with me. She's like, I didn't know how to go back to being friends. I'm like, well, at whatever point you decided you didn't want to be friends with them again, maybe stop sleeping with the guy. Oh, these are all good starters. And I said to her, like, hey, I understand that if you chose not to go forward with me, that's an awkward conversation to have. But I'm like, you could have done the right thing here. And you probably could have saved some semblance of a friendship we could have had down the road.

[Mackenzie]

And I'd rather be hurt with the.

[Nick]

Truth and kept me forever in that way. Instead, you went this route because you had to have me. And then I kind of started. Now I'm getting her to respond. So I kind of blew up. I'm like, I'm not interested in putting a timeline of thing together because at this point, I didn't know how far back it really went. Which at this point, did he even move out ever?

[Catherine]

You mean, do you think maybe they were always together?

[Nick]

Well, they were engaged. They were going to get married. The wedding was up. They didn't get married till 2016. So maybe there was a very brief window, but still we started doing it, probably, let's just call it beginning of 2011. But she was listed in the spring of 2012 as being a significant other in an obituary with him.

[Catherine]

So if anything, it was maybe just a weekend. And even if so, well.

[Nick]

And I mean, I've been with this person since. We've been intimate and talked every day for the last seven plus years and like three years before that. So like 10 years now.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, my.

[Nick]

Of that level of trust. And there isn't a tinfoil hat big enough to assume that someone you've been with this long and been through so much with is actually doing something like this to you behind your back. And keeping you totally in the dark.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And. And looking back, there were some other things that should have been red flags. I remember asking him, like, well, there was some, some stuff for a car that she didn't have. And she's like, I'm getting them for my nephew. He just got a car. So, I mean, everything was just so easily explained away because I supplied by love. And, and why would I think that this person was lying about something?

[Catherine]

Yeah, you don't write.

[Nick]

That was right in front of me. I mean, if you're trying to get away with something, you're better at it than that, right?

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Nick]

And then the part that burned me later is going back through it, looking. It's just like she was buying stuff for that baby.

[Mackenzie]

Oh my God.

[Nick]

Just, just here and there. And now here's the other thing. She wasn't there for my dad's funeral to be with me because she had pink eye from changing diapers on her eight month old. So she couldn't come be with someone at his lowest point after having a relationship with him for over 10 years.

[Catherine]

Wow.

[Nick]

Because you have a baby and a husband and it's getting really hard to sneak out for fun time with your country boy toy and some good sex when you got a husband and a baby at home. Getting pretty hard to sell the lie at this point.

[Catherine]

It's like, is everything a lie?

[Nick]

Well, believe me, I went down that road. So I'm like, the cancer thing, like, is that, is that, Was that truth? Is that true?

[Mackenzie]

Yeah. Was that true?

[Nick]

I don't know that. I don't know.

[Mackenzie]

I still don't know.

[Nick]

My sister told me though. She said, I will tell you that like, like elevated levels of estrogen are horrible for tumor growth. And I don't know any of that to even be true if she. Maybe she's full of crap, I don't know. But she said so. Like, like doing a pregnancy, especially when you're at that stage, maybe it was remission or something, I don't know. But she's like, either way, it's like kind of playing with fire there. And I'm like, I don't know. As far as the cancer thing, I would like that not to be true. Despite what she did to me. I don't want, want her to have cancer.

[Catherine]

You don't wish that on anyone. But you're like, would you use that to lie? Unfortunately, as we know on this show, people do.

[Nick]

She had an entire life that she hid from me, but at the same time, she carried on this massively intricate web of lies to make sure she had this. This web of just everything that I needed.

[Mackenzie]

So what happened next?

[Nick]

Well, I think what, like, I think when I was yelling at her in the Snapchat, that I was like, well, I was yelling at her in our message exchange kind of there at the end. I said, I'm like, I'm not interested in a timeline. I go, what I want to know is, I'm like, you've had this whole other life you've kept for me. I'm like, yeah, what was it about me that you had to keep me as a pet and get the rest of those needs met by your husband? I go, what quality of being a good man to you was so important you couldn't bear to let it go that you had to have it and get those other needs met by your husband? Because obviously you had to have something? And she said, the need of being my best friend. I said, well, Jen, I think how it's supposed to work is you're supposed to find that person that you know to the very core of your being is your best friend in the world, and you're supposed to hold on to that person forever. So I go by this metric, you might have married the wrong person, but I digress.

[Catherine]

And yeah, boom, that's on you now.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, my God.

[Nick]

Yeah. And she's like, I just. I didn't know how to. I didn't know how to go back to being friends. I'm just like, come on, dude, That's.

[Catherine]

Yeah.

[Mackenzie]

Basically, she's saying, the momentum was so great, I couldn't stop it.

[Nick]

Yeah, I couldn't stop it. And she's like, obviously, I think there were feelings there, and she knew it had crushed me. But, I mean, at this point, you'd already. You'd already walked the plank so far that it's just like. And I told her, I'm like, and you. I go, you had the luxury of knowing this day was coming. I go, I didn't. I got it all at once. The love of my life laying there in bed with a baby she had with her husband four, five years ago, I knew nothing about. The best friend I had in the whole world betrayed me to this level. Plus, after that, my entire emotional support system that I've had for most of my adult life is now gone.

[Mackenzie]

Gone.

[Nick]

I have nothing. I have nothing. And I'm like. And every other thing that you've ever done for me, every magical moment that we shared together, the passionate love making, just all those magical moments in between, I Go. And now I'm never. You can't even let me have that. I'm not going to know how genuine that was. And I go. So all those feelings I thought I got right back from you, that were so just as pure as the driven snow, all that now is now gonna have to forever stand in the shadow of what you did to me.

[Catherine]

Yeah.

[Nick]

To rob someone of agency in their own life, to be able to make their own informed decisions and to. To make it known that you were jealous and you didn't want me seeing other people. Meanwhile, she's getting screwed any old time she wants, but she's going to rob me of that. I mean, that really chaps my ass. So, yeah, I was just basically wasting all my years. Even in our last exchange, I was kind of freaking out and just speaking from the heart, but I told her that. I'm like, you have this whole thing going. I'm like, you were getting late anytime you wanted, but yeah, I couldn't. And I'm like, I was even celibate because it couldn't do that to you.

[Mackenzie]

Did she ever express being concerned about you telling her husband?

[Catherine]

Yes. Good question.

[Nick]

No, that was never discussed.

[Catherine]

Did you ever think about it?

[Nick]

Would you like to read our. She waited a week after we kind of had it out. And I was very polite during it because I showed my sisters and they're like, wow, you were really polite there. I'm like, I needed to keep the conversation going because I needed some answers because this is.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Whoa, this is wacky. Let's see here.

[Mackenzie]

Get more bees with honey.

[Catherine]

Read us the receipts, please.

[Nick]

I will read you. Her last message to me that came a week. A full week after we'd last spoken. She said some. Some heartfelt things in there. While I do find those are very likely true, some of those, but given the whole nature now of what I know, I kind of feel like. Was that her really pouring her heart out to me, or was this damage control? Jen worrying that I'm going to burn this whole thing down?

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, she thinks you're gonna blow up her life. Okay, let's hear it.

[Nick]

So it's.

[Mackenzie]

We'll be the judge of that, Nick.

[Nick]

Yeah, it says. Hey, I just want to tell you I am sorry. You deserve so much better than what you got with me. I was a selfish, to say the least. And you did not deserve any of that. From the moment I met you, I have been absolutely drawn to you. I never really understood why, but can only assume now that it is because you are my soulmate. You have been what has gotten me through most days and were the absolute highlight of them all. There isn't a morning where you haven't been my first thought and a night where you weren't my last. I know you don't believe any of my feelings were real and I don't blame you for thinking that. But please know that they were and are. I'm extremely thankful for all the memories that I have with you because they are some of my best and I will cherish them forever. I don't look at a sunrise or a sunset and not think of you along with the other thousand things other things daily that remind me of you. There are a million things I want to say to you, but I will spare you the time of reading anything more. I hope you find someone that makes you as happy and that loves you as much as you deserve to be loved. You really are one of the good ones to ever exist and are the whole package.

[Catherine]

And she took full advantage of the fact that you are such a wonderful person. And I really don't like her. I'm really not.

[Nick]

That's kind of the stance my sisters and my mom took. Yeah.

[Catherine]

And I'm keep. I'm being sweet the way you were trying to be sweet because I could not be.

[Mackenzie]

Nick, I'm so sorry.

[Catherine]

Wait, I need to hear like, so this is fresh. How are you?

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, like, so what happened?

[Catherine]

How have you been?

[Mackenzie]

Yeah. What happened after you found out? Were you just reeling?

[Nick]

Yeah. I didn't sleep and I didn't eat for God, I don't know how long. And I still was suffering and going through and going to work and just because I had to, just for the nature of the job and weather related. But I mean to tell you, there's like the absolute agony to just have to go out there every day and fake being yourself.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Was excruciating. All I wanted to do was curl up on my couch and not talk to anybody. And I mean, it did feel good to talk to people. Sure, I called my mom plenty to just give her reassurance. But then when I told all three of my sisters all these wild and crazy details just to frame this so I'm like, you guys gotta understand, this wasn't some pen pal that just decided to break things off with me. You don't know how deep this rabbit hole goes.

[Mackenzie]

No, this was a dark, twisty, kind of like sexy, intimate, but also best friend. Like this was an everything relationship.

[Catherine]

She was in every part of your life.

[Nick]

Yeah. Ye. I didn't I didn't sleep, didn't eat. And then I started drinking. I mean, I've always drank beer, stuff like that. But then all of a sudden it's like, now I can't stop.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Nick]

There were some long drinking. There was one that was a 12 hour drinking binge.

[Mackenzie]

There was just to numb it just to.

[Nick]

There was a 27 hour one. I mean, no food, no sleep, just standing in the garage drinking beer. So I'm still talking to my sisters, all three of them, multiple times a day, you know, sobbing on the phone, sometimes to them. Finally I admit my situation, that I'm not getting any better, and this is in fact really, really bad. And then my sister's kind of in that game a little bit and she finally, she's like, I'm, I'm like. I said, I'm ready to start some therapy or something here because I thought you. I have zero to lose and only everything to gain.

[Mackenzie]

Yep.

[Nick]

So I mean, and that was kind of.

[Catherine]

And had you ever been to a therapist before?

[Nick]

No. No. I mean, out here, you out here, the, the sticks like this, nobody ever mentions going to therapy and stuff like.

[Catherine]

That because like, talk about that, you.

[Nick]

Know, they're like so and so's going to therapy. It's just like, oh, Jesus, there's a stigma.

[Catherine]

They're crazy.

[Nick]

The knives off the table, they're coming over, they're crazy.

[Mackenzie]

Did you, when you thought about therapy, were you like, oh God, I don't want to do therapy. I don't want to seem crazy or I don't want to seem stupid or whatever.

[Nick]

I was so accepting of it at the time, just like, I have to do something here because I'm just as firing out of control.

[Mackenzie]

So you were ready for anything just to kind of.

[Nick]

I was. And I told my one sister who was. She's in the game and would kind of know people and know where to look. So I said, listen, the only thing is it has to be a woman.

[Mackenzie]

How come?

[Nick]

Yeah, I don't know if it was just that level of comfort I had with Jen all of these years or the fact that I grew up with a mom and a dad and three sisters is all those women. I mean, I swam.

[Mackenzie]

So you're using. That's familiar to you and safe to.

[Nick]

You, the whole macho bravado thing and stuff like that. I'm not gonna cave to some of these wildly personal details about my sex life to a guy. I'm not gonna do that. And I'm like, so that means I'm not I'm gonna keep that wall up, and that's not what you can do in that place. You got to let it all go, man.

[Mackenzie]

So can I ask you, Nick, as a guy, like, we don't get a lot of guys telling their story, and I'd like to hear from you maybe, why you think that is. But I want to know, when you say you don't want to share details like that with a guy, why is that? What makes it different for you?

[Nick]

Maybe it's just that instinctual. Like, you don't want to show any kind of weakness or something like that. I don't want to give them, like, wildly personal stuff, be like, what a weirdo, you know?

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, Yeah. A woman might be more sympathetic and understanding.

[Nick]

So I got a therapist, and that helped. Just talking to her, I was just struggling, grasping at straws, reaching for answers. And, I mean, I think a lot of it was, like, since I'd never been through anything like this before, yes, I've had relationships that went sour. Yes, there's a little bit of heartbreak at the end of it, but they were never to this level, and there was never this level of connection and love that I had for someone. So this was just so brutally devastating on so many different levels that it was just. I just couldn't process it. So I was seeking validation for others, and I just kept asking them the same dumb question. Like, I go, can you just, you know, be straight with me here. Is this just a bad breakup and I'm taking it, like, a little, or is this just so horrifically bad that all of these feelings and what I'm going through is actually, like, warranted? And they're like. Most of them were. You know, all heartbreakers are the same. Your situation is different. And there's others. It's like, no, this is. This is bad.

[Catherine]

Yeah, but I can't. That's what I want to hear.

[Nick]

I got a big heart, but I'm actually tough, dude. It's just like. Like. But to be cut down to this level is very humbling. And that's why, like.

[Catherine]

And it's not weak to show vulnerability or sadness or intimacy. And that's a hard thing, especially when you feel you've been rejected.

[Nick]

Yeah, I don't. And, I mean, I think that's. I don't know. Maybe that's why I. That was such a safe space with Jen, because I was always. You know, there was no topic to anything, and I would just. It didn't matter what we were talking about. It was like, I didn't have to think about what I'd said. I just.

[Mackenzie]

She was your best friend, too, it sounds like.

[Nick]

Yeah. I would just start typing and it didn't matter if it was just pouring right on my heart and soul. It just went right into words and hit send. I didn't have to edit anything or worry about what I was going to say. It was just like. Just say anything you want and go.

[Mackenzie]

Have you. From the time you found out all of this until now, it's only been a couple of months. Where are you at now? Like, have you found that there is healing? Are you still super hurt? Like, have you felt. Do you feel like you haven't moved on at all? Like, what are your thoughts now?

[Nick]

Well, I had been doing the therapy thing for a little bit, and I was still drinking at the time, pretty heavily. And then my mom and my sisters were obviously, they're talking to me, and I'm aware there's conversations that are being happened, happening about me behind my back, and I'm okay with that. But then Mom's freaking out. She's like, I talked to you the other night. And she's like, it's gone very dark. And I'm like, probably, yeah, it's affecting.

[Mackenzie]

You a lot, basically.

[Nick]

Oh. She said, whatever it is about you. She's like, something has drastically changed and it's gone very dark now. So I finally admit, like, this is not getting any better. We are. We are still sliding bad. So I made the choice. I finally, like, I'm gonna go see about, like, some anxiety medication or something. And, yeah, I woke up on Saturday and I just decided, you know what? The hell with it. I'm gonna go. I'm like, I don't wanna wait till Monday just in case I have another bad day again. So I go into the doctor's office and they sit me down there. I just. I'm like, there's only one doctor on duty that day. This is a small clinic. I'm waiting in the waiting room for, like, you know, 30, 40 minutes, which usually when there's more doctors on hand, you don't ever wait there that long. And then they put me in a room. And anyway, doctor shows up, nice lady, she said, hey. She goes, I am so sorry about the weight. She said, I pulled your chart earlier and I saw it was for anxiety medication. And she goes, I have anxiety that I'm on medication for. So she's like, do you want to tell me what's going on? And I said, I got a bad breakup. I said, for Starters, I want to know. I don't have a scale at home. I go, what did I weigh at my last visit? And they're like, oh, you were here in January. I'm like, I knew I was here pretty recently. I'm like, what? I weigh today? And she's like, okay. I'm like, how much weight did I lose? She goes, like, 25 pounds. Smooth. I go, every bit of that was in the last 30 days.

[Mackenzie]

Wow.

[Nick]

And her eyes got really big.

[Mackenzie]

Lots.

[Nick]

I mean, I wasn't sleeping. I wasn't eating. I mean, there was food. Did not interest me at all to you at all? No. I mean, I figured out, too. There were days I went to work. Work. And, I mean, you're having lunch there. Didn't even eat it. It's like, I don't want it. So, yeah, she sat and she talked to me, and we actually had a lot of fun because I. I told her what was going on. I was like, I was in a bad relationship. I was in a relationship for, like, probably 15 years plus with this woman. And we talked every single day. And then she kind of looks at me, and she's like, so you, like, physically saw this person thinking, I'm, like, getting catfished. And it's just an online thing. I'm like, oh, no. We were sleeping together for a long time, too. And then she's like, oh, wow. And I'm like, and then she's married in a baby. And then she's like, I swear a little bit. I said, you could say anything you want.

[Mackenzie]

I swear a little bit.

[Nick]

So she's like, now she's up walking around the room, like, pacing a little bit, and then she sits down, and she's like, you don't have to tell me anything you don't want to. And she's like, yeah, yeah. She really wanted the gossip, too. So it was just like. But it was. It was so fun just watching her wig out. That validated that this was such an epic show that she was losing it. And. Yeah, so I left there. I got my medication. Oh. And during all of that, too. I mean, at one point, she. She was wigging out so much. She's out of the chair, and she's leaned up against, like, the exam table. Because I'm just sitting in a chair. She's, like, stretching her back, and she's like. She keeps asking questions, and every answer she answered was just like, holy shit. And then she's like, oh, my God. So I listen to this podcast, it's called Dating Detectives, and she goes, you have to contact them because there's never any men on it. She goes, and they are gonna want to hear this. Her name, Catherine. Yes, they are gonna want to hear this. You have to contact them. So in the whole wave of me feeling good after our funny little interaction and watching her spaz out over this and her tell me about it, I came home for the fun of it. And I found you guys and sent you a. Sent you an email. And then I started listening to the show and you know, there's some really, really horrific stuff there. And obviously my story is way different. There's no financial strain or physical peril, but I mean, there was still a massive, massive betrayal.

[Catherine]

There's no competition. Yeah, betrayal, trauma, for sure.

[Nick]

It did help a little bit. And my medication started working a little better and it really pulled me out of the d. Dark place.

[Catherine]

So happy for you.

[Mackenzie]

Do you see yourself on the upswing now? Like on the.

[Nick]

Oh, totally, totally, totally. Yeah. And I think I was before I finally got put on another medication because the other ones just weren't really seeming to pull me out of that.

[Mackenzie]

It's hard to find the good, the perfect.

[Nick]

Finally I got put on another one by, by Catherine, bless her heart. And that one actually started to work actually rather rapidly. So after that it's just been a building of just so much better. But I'd like to think, you know, probably even between the time when I started the medication to when I didn't. I mean, I had already made a. Made a few notes and stuff on my phone and I kind of made a decision that I didn't want to. I didn't want to do this anymore. So I was actually headed. Headed outside, believe it or not, because I didn't want anybody have to clean up in the house. But I got myself stopped because I said that, you know, doing that for me is going to really hurt a lot of people. And if I do that one, it's destroy my mother. She'll never be the same. And I'm like, if I just choose to hurt all these people just for me reasons, because it's what I want right now. And that's really selfish and that would make me no better than Jen and I'm better. So I'm not going to do this. I'm going to try one more day. And then luckily the meds start kicking in and. And it's just been a nice constant upswing since. And you know, things are looking so much better. I'm actually having fun, I'm enjoying myself.

[Mackenzie]

We're really glad you're here. You made a good decision. And I just. I love how you thought about everyone else and decided, even if it's for. Not to hurt anyone else, that you were worthy just enough to not hurt someone else. And I just think that I'm so glad you're here.

[Nick]

Like, I just. That and it was just given in. And it's like that means you lose. And it's like, I don't. I don't want to. I don't want to lose.

[Mackenzie]

And you overcame. That's such a strong. I think so many people can relate to that because so many people are faced with those situations where there's like. I don't know. I just feel so heartbroken, so sad that you just can't get over it. And so I'm tired. To know you get to that point and then you brought yourself out of it is insane. So good for you. I'm so proud of you.

[Nick]

I have a hand on the door, going outside. I stopped there in the laundry room.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, God.

[Catherine]

And thank you also for sharing that, because I'm not.

[Nick]

I'm not proud of it because I've never been that person. But.

[Catherine]

Well, I don't think it's anything to be ashamed of.

[Nick]

Maybe be like. To be like. Yeah. To be that. That kind of person or actually be that kind of level of mentally unstable or in that much despair that.

[Mackenzie]

That I get that.

[Nick]

That was even. That was even something that was even. Even worth considering, you know?

[Catherine]

Yeah. Well, it's not something to be ashamed of. Also, I think you're shining a very good light on how detrimental these types of betrayals are. And it can be as. It's just this, like, she being diabolical and lying doesn't just hurt you. It hurts her child, it hurts her husband. It hurts your whole family. It hurts so many people. And I don't know how to get these dogfish to think about that. I don't know how to change them. I don't know if we can. But I think it's so important.

[Nick]

Think it kind of goes both ways with what I was going to do there. It's hurt people. Hurt people. If I was hurt that bad, I was going to hurt people.

[Catherine]

Yes. I feel really bad for her husband.

[Mackenzie]

What are your thoughts on telling him?

[Nick]

With all that fallout and the. Obviously the level of mental despair I went to, which I didn't think was humanly possible, but I mean, the stance on that has changed as things have gone on. I went days where I'm Like I'm not going to tell them. I don't want to ruin their happily ever after, just let him live in bliss. But at the same time I'm like, how do we know I'm the only the other guy? This pattern may continue. She might find another gym buddy and who knows? I don't know. So then I kind of reach, I'm like, I want to tell him and I'm like, is this out of just petty revenge? I'm like, a little bit, a little bit. But at the same time this guy has no idea.

[Mackenzie]

And I'm like, you have compassion for him and you're worried about hurting him.

[Nick]

And I do. I'm like, I am going to destroy this guy's life just like mine. I don't want that for somebody else. But on the same time I pass this around a lot of neutral parties that don't have necessarily a stake in my best interest. And everyone I quizzed was like, yeah, you tell them so worked on it for weeks. There's a fairly lengthy letter outlining timelines, what went on, a lot of apologies to him and I'm like, there's going to be some sexual details in here, but you just need to know how deep this rabbit hole goes, things like that. So where I'm actually at with that is I've got some contact info for him and I was going to email it to him but however talking with my brother in law who's an IT sending it to his work email address is a bad idea because that system is so secure because it deals like Department of Treasury and stuff like that. And from what I know from talking to Jen, that's not going to make it through.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, they'll weed it out.

[Nick]

They can't click any outside link in an email from any unsecured source at all. So I have is an actual phone.

[Mackenzie]

Number you haven't thought about do you haven't thought about calling him.

[Nick]

I don't know if my number would be blocked about two days after this happened. I'm also a little bit of a on actually doing it.

[Catherine]

But no, I get that's a very hard.

[Nick]

But I don't know the implication of me or my phone number or something like that coming through because two days after this happened I could still see his Facebook and then gone well, she.

[Catherine]

Probably went in and blocked you on.

[Nick]

I don't know that. Or did she already give him some sort of elaborate cover story in case he starts to hear something through the grapevine about me and just say, hey, you do Remember my friend Nick? Right. Well, he started to get all weird, and, you know, he's.

[Catherine]

You know.

[Mackenzie]

There'S receipts.

[Nick]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I can, but I'm like. But what I don't know is I'm trying to keep myself out of the very first step other than the email. And all I want to do because I have no control over what happens after that email gets sent, but after I worked on it that hard, stressed on it that hard, all I want to do is I want to make damn sure it ends up in front of his face and he sees it. My sister, I think, is going to message him from an outside app and just be like, hey, you don't know me, but I have some extremely important things that you need to know about your wife. But I just can't have me involved because if I try and reach out to him and he recognizes my phone number or something like that and I'm all blocked and everything, he could just. Just simply say, like, don't contact me or my wife ever again. And, man, so that gets me nowhere. So I just need somebody to kind of nudge him. We get a little email, and then after that, Kerbang. Yeah, that's where I am there.

[Mackenzie]

So you're basically saying you want him to know you just want to do it in a way that you'll be able to.

[Nick]

I just need. Want to make sure this thing gets to him and he sees it. Because I have no control. That's the last thing I can be in control of. And for the amount of effort that I went through this and my sister helped me because I was such a mess, for the amount of effort I went through with this, this thing needs to land home. And who's to say, I mean, this. This pattern could continue down the road.

[Mackenzie]

You just have to know that whatever choice you make, you have to live with it.

[Nick]

I know. I even state that in the letter that I feel awful for this because I'm going to have to forever, forever live with my son, knowing I'm the guy that might have ruined your happily ever after with Jen.

[Mackenzie]

Well, it's not your fault.

[Catherine]

Never ruined it.

[Nick]

But if I were. But if the roles were reversed and I was you, I'd still want to know.

[Catherine]

That's kind of where I think you're in the right space for sure. Like having a support system and then asking, what would I want?

[Nick]

You deserve to know that the woman you married isn't the one that you think you did. You deserve to know what's behind that mask. It's just like I'm pulling back the curtain and we're all going to see the wizard. So, I mean, the level she took this to conceal her involvement from the two different men in her life simultaneously was a very well thought out, concerted effort. And without my support system, I don't know where I would be right now. Shout out to them. Shout out to them. And my mom especially. And I mean, there's been some other close friends too, but my sisters, they really had to sit there and take it and listen to their brother just call and sob about his bullshit every day when this all happened. So obviously there was a physical addiction to the dopamine hit you got from hearing back from her, you know, and message.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, yeah, of course, of course.

[Nick]

It didn't have to be flashy pictures as anything naughty. It was just. The conversation was just such a part of your everyday life.

[Mackenzie]

The dopamine high of hearing, but yep, a hundred percent.

[Nick]

So even the days after this, like, I'm still like a zombie. I remember one time I was actually eating and I seen something funny on. Was it TV or I was scrolling through Facebook on meeting or something and I'm like, I saw something funny and immediately I saved the image. And then I put my fork down and I grab it with both hands because guess what? I'm sending it to Jen out of physical habit, I'm gonna send it to her. And I had to stop myself. And then like, I'm going to work and I just keep reaching over and squeezing my phone, just see if there's notification, you know, and there's. She's not there. And then there's a couple times where I know my, my, my sisters did everything they could, but I mean, they still had their own lives too. And maybe sometimes I was calling inconvenient time and they would call me right back, but the call and get that voicemail and it's just like, there's nobody there. And it was like that, that one really killed me a couple times is. It was like, for one, there was a lot of times where I had to work up the guts to call them because I'm like, I know I need to talk to somebody, but I just don't have it in me to hit send. So I stared at a black screen on the phone and finally then I did call and then they weren't there. Then it was just, oh, that. Just, just. But I, I just kept persevering because I had this model a long time ago when I felt really, really overwhelmed and Stuff with stuff. I thought it was way out of my league and over my head and stuff like that. And your feeling of helplessness is your best friend because sometimes it's the help you didn't get that helped the most. So, you know, you got yourself into this mess and you got to get yourself out of it. Obvious. This case. I could not do this alone. And thank God I had all those people to help me because who knows how that one ended without that. So.

[Catherine]

Yep.

[Mackenzie]

I'm. I'm so happy you had them. I. I'm so it. Man, that is just so much. I just can't believe you've taken all that on. And this is so fresh, too. I'm just so grateful for you, Nick. We really love you. Thank you. And so many people are going to appreciate you sharing this.

[Catherine]

Thank you so much.

[Nick]

Thanks for having me.

[Mackenzie]

Whole bananas.

[Catherine]

How much do you love Nick?

[Mackenzie]

First of all, I love how compassionate he seems to be. 15 freaking years, dude, and you're still like, your. Your number one thought is other people are going to be hurt. First of all, I. I love that compassion and that just thoughtfulness of others after what he went like, imagine loving someone for 15 years, being so loyal to them and giving them all of you just to know it was all a lie. And not to say that her love for him was like, she probably really did love him. Like, how do you go on for 15 years and not actually love that?

[Catherine]

Well, she was using that love. Like, she loved that he loved her so much, I think. And.

[Mackenzie]

And I think she found herself loving him. And then she had, like, this momentum in the relationship and she just. I do. I genuinely feel like she probably got herself into a situation where she accidentally fell in love with him. And now she didn't know how to end either relationship. And then it's like, which one do you. Whatever. So, like, I get that. But also, you're hurting this person just for them to find out in the 15 years that you have this child. Oh, my God. I can't.

[Catherine]

It gets. I mean, the fact that she had to go through so many hoops to keep it from him goes to show that she knew her behavior was wrong. And I don't really care why they do it. Like, you just can't do that to people. And you're right. His impulse control is to be admired greatly. The fact that he wasn't like, I'm going to go burn down the house. I'm going to go barge into the husband's office and tell him what's going on is huge. And I would love to talk about the informing the spouse. Hopefully we get updates. I think he really thought through all the options and there's no right answer. I know a lot of you have the right answer for you, but I do think the answer changes person to person, whether or not to notify them.

[Mackenzie]

To be clear, I personally don't feel like there's a right or wrong answer. I also like that he didn't just go blurt it out right away. I like that he's thought about it. So now he's not doing it in a place of revenge. He's doing it in a place of, I feel like this is the right thing to do. And whether or not you agree with him at any part of that, I feel like that's his. That's his. That's something that he feels is the right thing to do. And I, I'm. I support him either, whatever he chooses.

[Catherine]

Yeah, we're gonna get updates for sure. Because this happened, what, two months ago he found out?

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, 15 years and just two months ago, this ended.

[Catherine]

Well, that was another thing about the story. Like, there were, when we asked, like, he said this went on for a few years and we were like, oh, like two years said no, eight years. Like, they were in a long distance relationship. They were pretty independent the whole time, but not in a way that I feel like I don't want that to sound like I'm blaming him. I think the relationship worked for both of them really well in a way that made it even harder to go through this for him.

[Mackenzie]

Like, and when you love someone that much and for that long, like, he said he had no reason to think she would ever lie to him. Like, he knew her blood type.

[Catherine]

I was like, writing down the little things that she did that probably we can learn from as signs. So I, I honestly, I guess I knew that you could hide things from people on Facebook, but I didn't really think about how you could hide from specific people. I know you can do that for your Instagram stories.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, you can do it on Facebook too. You can say, post for everyone except. And then you tag the people that you don't want to see it or whatever.

[Catherine]

So that's good to know. I also didn't note it at the time, but then after the fact, they were talking on Snapchat a lot. And you know what? You don't get in Snapchat receipts, as Mackenzie likes to say. So that could have been strategic. She made a real boo boo getting them on Facebook because he he found it. But what else did she do that was a good. Oh, yeah. She was just, like, her excuses were great. They all made sense to me. And she did. Like, he knew her from before. They were friends first. He validated all these things about her I guess he could have Googled, but, like, you don't think that way. You don't think that she has a husband and a baby. It's not his fault. I'm not saying it's his fault. I'm just saying, what can we learn as we move forward?

[Mackenzie]

Diabolical. I am so speechless. But also, I have so much to say.

[Catherine]

I know. I. I mean, I'm so happy he found medication that's helping. That's huge.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah. Don't ever feel like. And that's the thing, too, is, like, the stigma behind mental health. Like, Treat Sigma behind getting therapy and, like, mental health stuff, even for guys, like, it's okay to seek out therapy. Like, that's all right. And this guy is proof of that. And I love that. You know, a thing that humans need is that community. They need to know they're not alone. It's not just girls. Guys need to know that, too.

[Catherine]

Everybody.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Catherine]

And, I mean, it's a decision with your doctor, and it should be ongoing. I will never. If. If I think I. I don't. You know, who knows? In the future, I don't see myself ever getting off of the medication that I've got on because I've never felt more like myself. And it was an emotional feeling to get on medicine like that, because you're like, wait, I didn't know that I could feel this way. And if that situational depression, which I'm not a doctor, I can't diagnose, but it does, from what I know. Sounds like that was definitely what was going on. Or, like, something you've been dealing with forever. Like, it is amazing. And I had a conversation with a friend who was worried about seeking medication for this, because he was like, I don't want to change who I am. And this is the analogy I came up with. And you tell me if it speaks to you. I was like, does going to the gym and exercising change who you are as a person? I don't think it does. Does it make me have more energy and feel a little bit more alive and feel stronger and feel like a better version of myself? Yeah. I'm not changing who I am at my core, but I am allowing myself to just feel better. And that's how I see that medication.

[Mackenzie]

That is such a Good.

[Catherine]

Doesn't that make sense?

[Mackenzie]

And guys and girls both go to the gym. Like, mental health is health. Sexual health is health.

[Catherine]

Yeah. It's such a journey. I'm just proud of him for doing it. What else do we have? Anything else that you took away?

[Mackenzie]

I just really think that it was interesting that he found comfort in the fact that even his therapist was like, this is bonkers. And I think it's cool how at first. And you heard him say, I heard the other stories. And I was like, mine's nothing like that. But it's not the same. There's no physical violence whatever. But he is a prime example of how it doesn't have to be anything violent or crazy. It's just a matter of just the lying itself. And when you think, oh, I'm so stupid. And then you hear the other stories and you're like, oh, my gosh, this is not just me. I am not alone. And that's why that telling these stories is so important, because you just never know how your story or your experience is going to help someone else.

[Catherine]

Also, what you just said made me think about his suicidal ideation, because was there physical abuse? No. Was there violence? Yes. Like, look at how he felt about himself after that experience. And I also, we talked about it with him, and I'm glad he went through his mental processing in that moment. And what got him out? I mean, when you get to that point, it's, it's, it's, it's a illness. It's mental illness. And I hope people don't feel like a failure for having moments like that, because it's real and it sucks.

[Mackenzie]

It's a human experience. It's a human. It's a.

[Catherine]

And it's not your fault.

[Mackenzie]

So many of our guests have experience getting to a point. Remember the blackmail story experience getting to a point where they just feel so helpless, they don't know what to do. And they're like, I, I, I don't know what else to do. I feel so stuck. I can't win with the stalker case. Like, I can't get over this stalker. I can't find this guy. I don't know how to stop him. And, you know, with the blackmail, like, all these different things, and you get to the point where you're just like, imagine being someone who drives someone to the point of wanting to end their own.

[Catherine]

I mean, he used the word monster. And I concur. It's very sad to be. And I hope she gets the help she needs.

[Mackenzie]

I'm excited to Hear what our listeners have to say about his story. And did anything resonate with you? Was there anything that you were like, man, I didn't expect this from a guy. I want to know what you guys think. So keep the conversation going on our social media and please continue to share it. When you guys, you guys, we are so grateful for how much you share, Dr. Catherine.

[Nick]

I love you, Catherine.

[Mackenzie]

I know. And like when you guys share, we, we appreciate it because it's just that sense of community just keeps growing for others and it's just widening the range of people that can feel more heard and more empowered and more inspired. So we're really grateful for you guys. Thank you.

[Catherine]

You did you guess it? Did you think she had a husband and a baby?

[Mackenzie]

No. I was like, what did she do? I was like, what did she do? Like she did something while she kills him. What she do?

[Catherine]

Well, I thought when he said they had a shared Amazon account with all their information, I was like, oh no. Does she have his credit card information? Is she going to like find a.

[Mackenzie]

Way financially deepen him? Yeah, yeah.

[Catherine]

I'm curious what other people thought along the way because I, I, I really did not see a baby. Especially because half the story she had was that she was having trouble with fertility related things. So I definitely didn't expect that. But I guess she found a way.

[Mackenzie]

God bless. I just, listen, I'm, I'm so curious what happens on his date? Like, I want to know so bad.

[Catherine]

I know, I know. And if you know any men who have been through something or anyone who has been through something and they just need a place to share, you can tell us your dog fish story. Or even if you have like a job, fish, a friend, dogfish, any other kind of dogfish, we could read them on Patreon.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, I really hope this kind of sets the example for other guys too. Like, it's okay to share your story. And there's this guy clearly to be at a point where he didn't feel like he wanted to live anymore. But then he, his therapist told him about our show and he said, oh my gosh. I went back, I listened to the episodes and I felt so much less alone. He literally said, I felt less alone. That's powerful. So dudes, you, we, you're masculine and strong all the live long day. But we know that women are not the only victims like you. It's, it's okay to say, like, hey, this chick freaking dogfish me. I want to tell my story, man.

[Catherine]

You know, it would be so hot For a guy to do, be really vulnerable on a podcast and, like, be supportive of other victim survivors, whatever. And also just learn and grow. And also therapy. All of those things are the hottest, most masculine things I can think of. Okay, Spread the word. Spread the word.

[Mackenzie]

So, yeah, if you. So if you know a guy or if you are a guy who has a story or any. I mean, anybody, please send us your stories. But men are welcome, too. I know it's a lot of females that you hear, but men are welcome here. Everybody's welcome here. Our email address is [e-mail] Send us your stories. We want to be an ear or a platform for you. Thank you for sharing. Join the Patreon. The link to it's in the show notes. It's $5 a month, not 750.

[Catherine]

Oh, and get your merch before Wednesday.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, yeah. Get the dating detectives merch and represent and share it. If you. If you get the merch, share it on your. On your social media. We want to see.

[Catherine]

I cannot wait. I love you. And this was a tough one, but he seems like he's gonna be okay.

[Mackenzie]

So grateful for Nick and go join the Patreon for sure. That's where we do a lot of our updates and stuff.

[Catherine]

So, yeah, if he gives us updates, we'll. We'll tell our Patreon for sure. Well, oh, and also, we can have fem tuition them. Tuition. Men tuition. Whatever you want to call it, we all have it. It's when you've been through something like this and you got to start looking at the world in a way that keeps you on guard.

[Mackenzie]

Call it whatever you want, baby. Trust your fem tuition.

[Catherine]

Trust your femtuition, and amen. Love you.

[Mackenzie]

Okay, bye.