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- [00:01]
Hannah
The following program contains names, places and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following program is provided for entertainment purposes only, and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances. If you or a loved one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic violence hotline at 1-800-799-777, 233 for support.
- [00:39]
MacKenzie
Happy Dating Detectives Monday.
- [00:42]
Hannah
Hi, everybody.
- [00:43]
MacKenzie
Stop singing, please. Everybody's like covering. Their speakers are blowing out and they're like, please stop.
- [00:47]
Hannah
I liked it. I love a jingle. And people know what they're getting when they show up here. And if not, surprise, we might jingle every now and then. But how's everybody doing? I wonder if, I mean, if you're a new listener. Welcome to the Dating Detectives.
- [01:04]
MacKenzie
Welcome. I. I will not sing on a lot of the episodes. I'm very sorry, probably not singing, but we do want to welcome you to the Dating Detectives. And I would like to add, we have a patreon, which is $5 a month, and we just added a second patreon, which is $9 tier. And so with the $5 one, you get the two bonus episodes a month and you get the, you know, the live streams and the book club and all these fun, exciting things in a forum and all these things. Right. But then the $9 tier, it's like ad free listening. And so I'm really curious to know if any of you have done the ad free listening one yet and if you like it. But yeah, we're really excited about it because our, our podcast is just growing and growing. So if you're new here, that's the sitch on the Patreon. But just thank you for listening. It's really supportive.
- [01:52]
Hannah
Huge. Thank you. We just recorded a Patreon episode where we read like some of the email submissions sometimes that aren't full episodes. And I love somebody was like, love your podcast. It's messy and chaotic and so helpful. And we were like, yup, that sums it up. That's a great description. But yes, MacKenzie's a P.I. i'm a writer comedian who's trying not to be dogfished. And we.
- [02:16]
MacKenzie
She's also a PI in her own.
- [02:17]
Hannah
Right, yet not legally. And I don't break the law, but I do a good job of Instagram sleuthing when I have to.
- [02:24]
MacKenzie
She really does. Never stalking.
- [02:26]
Hannah
I'm proud. Never stalking. Of course not. And yeah. That's who we are. And we have a great story today from a guest named Harper, who I adored, guys.
- [02:36]
MacKenzie
I really liked her a lot. All of our guests, though, they're really brave to even come on and share their story. They have all been just so kind, and you guys have been. You. Do they. Do our. Does our. Do our audience. Does our audience not blow your mind with how kind and respectful and supportive.
- [02:55]
Hannah
Yeah.
- [02:55]
MacKenzie
That you guys.
- [02:56]
Hannah
So much from y' all.
- [02:57]
MacKenzie
There's so little negativity. Like, it's very positive, and if anybody has anything different to say than someone else, it's very respectful, and you guys are just really mature, and it's just really cool the way that you guys come together and you can have friendly debates, and our audience is amazing. Like, we can't. Like, we're. I want to jazz you guys up forever.
- [03:16]
Hannah
Mm. I think it's true that sometimes if you've been through stories like this, there's many downsides. One of the positives is it extends your sense of empathy. Like, you have a new way to connect with so many other people, and I wish we didn't have to develop it the hard way, but so many of you have been through stuff like this, and you're able to really extend that love to others. So thank you. I mean, it's kind of crazy that we were able to find all of you, like, in this community.
- [03:41]
MacKenzie
I'm still just so blown away, but thank you, guys. In this episode, though, I do want to warn you. Trigger warning, attempted murder.
- [03:52]
Hannah
We don't usually have, like, yes, we're kind of true crime, but we're, like, true crime light.
- [03:56]
MacKenzie
True crime light. Yeah.
- [03:58]
Hannah
Yeah. This story involves a murder, and just. It's hard, so be aware of that. And there's stalking and also mental illness, and mental illness is definitely a factor in.
- [04:13]
MacKenzie
Yes.
- [04:14]
Hannah
This dogfish is this dogfish's behavior. We will talk about it more at the end because it's definitely delicate, and we certainly don't believe or want to make it seem like anyone with a mental illness is a bad person inherently.
- [04:32]
MacKenzie
Right.
- [04:32]
Hannah
But in this story, it is a part of this guy. So just note that.
- [04:37]
MacKenzie
Thank you for listening, and I really think that you'll like this guest a lot, and I know you'll have a lot of support.
- [04:43]
Hannah
Yeah, Harper's great. Did I miss any? I'm like, did I miss anything else?
- [04:46]
MacKenzie
Shall we? Let's. I think we should get into it. Let's let Harper tell the story. Let's do it.
- [04:58]
Hannah
Hi, Harper.
- [04:59]
MacKenzie
Hi, Harper. Hi, we're. We are ready to hear your story. We're not excited to hear it because I always say that on accident, but we are ready to hear it. Take it away for us.
- [05:09]
Harper
So this story takes place quite a long time ago when I was going to college and I was going to a small liberal arts school in Pennsylvania called Swarthmore.
- [05:19]
MacKenzie
And that sounds like Hogwarts.
- [05:21]
Harper
Yeah, exactly.
- [05:22]
MacKenzie
Pretty much Hogwarts.
- [05:23]
Harper
If you saw the people that went there, that's kind of what's going on. I'm just kidding. There's a bunch of weirdos in the woods.
- [05:28]
Hannah
Love it. That's hilarious.
- [05:31]
Harper
So I was really excited going into it. I thought I would be an art major because I was a painter. And I figured that that was kind of my passion. Spoiler alert. Didn't end up being an art major there at all. I ended up majoring in something completely different. But I was taking art classes with the. The intention of setting myself up for the rest of the four years. And I was also coming off of a on again, off again high school relationship that was actually ended up being five years on and off again. So not the typical. I feel like it was a pretty serious relationship, but wasn't the best I saw somewhere.
- [06:12]
Hannah
I think it was on Instagram where it was just like the freshman on again, off again high school relationship is a canon event for a lot of people.
- [06:22]
Harper
Yeah. And that, like holding onto something while you're in college.
- [06:25]
Hannah
And I was sort of, yeah, it's comfortable.
- [06:27]
MacKenzie
It's common.
- [06:28]
Harper
I was like splitting my life into two and like, trying to spend time still at home with the people that I was close with and then also trying to immerse myself in college. So my freshman year, we broke up pretty early on in the year and I was taking art classes. So I was outside of the art building and meeting the people that were kind of waiting, nervous to go into the first day of classes. And I was definitely feeling like, all right, it's time for a fresh start. I want to be open to meeting somebody at school who's got my, like, interest, who's maybe, you know, also an artist or a musician or somebody who's creative. Because that was very far from the group of people that I had been a part of prior to that. So was kind of ready to embrace something new. And I had a painting class and there was a very tall, very handsome man in the painting class. He seemed a little bit older, which it turns out he was because he had been going to a different school school and was A transfer student, so we were technically in the same year. So we were starting in our majors at the same time, taking all the same classes. He was very handsome and seemed like he knew what he was doing. He was working on a massive scale, which to me was, at the time, very impressive. He had his own style, his own thing going on. So I was kind of very taken with, I don't know, the idea of this person. I didn't know him at all.
- [07:53]
Hannah
Sure.
- [07:53]
Harper
But in theory, was it, like, walk.
- [07:57]
Hannah
Into class and, like, who is. Is that energy?
- [08:00]
Harper
All of the women were like, who is that?
- [08:03]
MacKenzie
Oh, okay.
- [08:03]
Harper
It was. It was immediately obvious. Yeah. So we got to talking. I think at the time, we were, like, smoking cigarettes outside, and I was smoking cigarettes at the time.
- [08:15]
Hannah
So I was like, this is an A24 movie.
- [08:17]
Harper
Exactly.
- [08:18]
Hannah
Is what I'm watching right now.
- [08:20]
Harper
So I was. I was exactly, though. I was outside, like, smoking a cigarette, being like, oh, yeah, what's your deal? Where are you from? You know, everybody's kind of chatting. And he was like, well, I'm actually local. My family lives right down the street. You know, I went away to school, but I came back. He explains the whole thing to me, and I was like, oh, cool. Okay. So he's got. He's a little older. He's got some, like, art school experience already. I'm kind of a novice. And he's local. I was also local. I was living on campus, but I was only a few minutes from home and where I had graduated high school, and nobody from home went to my school, like, not a single person. So it felt like, in a bubble way, I could still go home for weekend dinner or whatever, but I was still isolated at school. Like, I was away at college.
- [09:06]
Hannah
Best of both worlds.
- [09:07]
Harper
Yeah, that's right. That was my logic. But meeting somebody else at the school who was also local was great because it meant, like, on breaks or whatever, we could still hang out. And I really didn't know anybody else who was bridging that gap. So as we're talking, I realized that we not only had some mutual friends and acquaintances, but that we also went to the same preschool and kindergarten, which for. Oh, wow. Yeah. For context, it was a very, very small town, Very, very small school. And the public school didn't start until about first grade. So for a couple of years from when I was, like, three to five, I was in this private school because it was the only way to have a daycare. My parents were working, and he had gone to that private school for the whole Time. I was only there for preschool. Two years of preschool and kindergarten from, like, three, four, or five. Got it. But because it's such a small town and because people sort of hang on to mementos, especially my mother, I had these old yearbooks from that school, and there's literally photos of us together in those yearbooks. When I went home the next time and was like, I have to find this. Where is this? And it turns out we were, like, in our. He was in. In the same class as me because he was older, but we were in some of the field day photos or whatever, which was insane. I then was talking to my family about this person, described who it was, and explained, and my mom said, hold on a second. Not only do I know who you're talking about, I actually have a story for you. Yeah.
- [10:46]
MacKenzie
So we.
- [10:47]
Harper
At the time, we had. We had a Australian shepherd and a Subaru, right? So my mom had picked me up from kindergarten. We were leaving for the day, and she clicks the button, seemingly unlocks the car. We get in the car, the dog's in the back. And I'm sitting there in the back because I was five, and she says, I was like, this isn't our dog.
- [11:13]
MacKenzie
Oh, what?
- [11:14]
Harper
And she looks around and she realizes that she had gotten into someone else's car who had the same car and the same kind of dog. So from the outside, she didn't realize. No.
- [11:25]
Hannah
That's amazing.
- [11:26]
Harper
I love it. And it turns out that it was his mom's dog and car. So I, of course, told him this story once I learned, like, oh, wait.
- [11:35]
Hannah
We almost stole your car.
- [11:36]
Harper
Literally. Yeah. I don't know if your mom's gonna remember this, but somebody was. Is this a felony?
- [11:41]
MacKenzie
If I didn't know Ignor, this is no excuse from the law.
- [11:46]
Harper
Well, I mean, right away, I think we got out of the car and then had, like, a hollering laugh in the parking lot, being like, oh, my gosh.
- [11:53]
Hannah
Oh, no.
- [11:55]
Harper
So super random. But it was kind of like fate. You know what I mean? We were like, okay, we know each other. Our families know each other kind of, you know, whatever.
- [12:04]
Hannah
And this is very much in line with the romance novels. Yeah, I enjoy it.
- [12:11]
Harper
Felt so serendipitous. It was very hard to ignore.
- [12:17]
MacKenzie
This episode is sponsored by Better Help. So you guys know how we're always talking about. On the show, we get a lot of women sharing their stories, but we don't get a lot of men sharing their stories. And so I wanted to bring up speaking about this episode that we're doing this week, in particular, the. The mental health and how we take it very seriously. But there's a stigma surrounding men's mental health and the strength that comes from maintaining a healthy mind, even for men. But I think that stigma that surrounds men's mental health is why men don't share a lot of their stories. And I'm wondering, Hannah, do you think that's. That's probably true?
- [12:54]
Hannah
Yes. And absolutely why they don't get help. And sometimes people misinterpret a lot of what we talk about. I love. There's one person that says, like, it's not that we're trying to make men cry, but we're trying to let men cry.
- [13:06]
MacKenzie
Yeah. Or give them an opportunity.
- [13:08]
Hannah
Yeah. There's a space for all people to get help and grow and be we and make mistakes. And I wish that more men, especially, would feel comfortable being vulnerable and getting help.
- [13:21]
MacKenzie
Yeah. And I think that men today face immense pressure to perform, provide, keep it all together. So it's no wonder that 6 million men in the US suffer from depression every year. But it's so often undiagnosed. And it's okay to struggle. Like, real strength comes from opening up about what you're carrying, whatever, and doing something about it so you can be at your best for yourself and everyone else. And so if you are a man or, you know, a man, man that might be feeling the weight of the world, talk to someone. A friend, a loved one, a therapist. So hello to our gentlemen, to our gentle fellas who may be listening. You do not have to experience trauma to seek therapy. Sometimes it's just good to talk about someone. Share your experience, share what you're going through. Better Help is a really great opportunity to talk without feeling the pressure of talking to a friend. Maybe you're embarrassed because of that, that stigma surrounding, you know, men's mental health. Talk to a therapist. Just get it all out. Better help has over 35,000 therapists. It's the world's largest online therapy platform, and they serve over 5 million people globally. And it's convenient, too. You can join a session with a therapist at the click of a button, helping you to fit therapy into your busy life.
- [14:38]
Hannah
I want to add, also, therapy can also be very inaccessible, and better help is an affordable option. Recently I was. I have a therapist, and I was like, man, recently the sessions have been kind of light. Like, I don't have a ton to talk about. Things are going pretty well. I wonder if she's bored. And then things happen and I was like, wait, I actually need more time. And it reminded me that going to therapy when you're not feeling as bad is so great for developing the relationship for when you do need someone. So, like, don't wait until you need help. Develop that basis with a professional so that when something comes up, it's like, I already feel like this person knows me and I feel safe with them. And what's so nice about Better Help is that you really can find that right fit.
- [15:24]
MacKenzie
There's so many options, and you can change your therapist at any time. It's the largest online therapy provider in the world, and BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of expertise. Talk it out with Better help our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com TDD that's BetterHelp. H-E-L-P.com TDD.
- [15:53]
Harper
Obviously, we were like, well, we should hang out. And I think it was the first, like, fall break that we had. He invited me to come out to a bar with him. And I was, again, he's a little bit older. I was 19, maybe 18 and a half. 19. And I didn't have a fake ID. And I was like, look, I don't want to burst the bubble of this, but I can't go to a bar with you. I can hang out, we can go to dinner or whatever, but I can't go out drinking with you as much as that would break the ice, you know, whatever. And he was like, okay, well, we won't do that. We'll do something else. I have a bunch of friends, but just meet me at this place in this town, whatever. And we go out and the first thing, we drive to this bar. And I was like, again, I'm not going to be able to get in. And he was like, don't worry about it. They don't check IDs. Oh, I'm like, like, well, that's not really.
- [16:51]
Hannah
Yeah, I feel like you should, like, make sure you're cool.
- [16:53]
Harper
I had already said no. Not that I was like straight edge or anything, but I was definitely being like, I don't wanna get embarrassed. It's just embarrassing.
- [17:01]
MacKenzie
Yes, yes. No, I. Exactly.
- [17:03]
Harper
And also, I'm kind of a rule follower in a lot of ways. As much as people might not think that about me, I was like, I still like, it's just embarrassing. I didn't wanna go through it. So I told.
- [17:13]
Hannah
Especially on our first, like, I don't know, did you think it was a date or was It. Just hanging out. You were dating.
- [17:18]
Harper
That's the thing is I. I guess we were hanging out. I really felt like it was a date, and I think he did, too. I mean, we were just trying to figure out what. What we could do, and there's not a lot to do in a small town. And I think this was his solution. So, okay, we're at the door, and he goes inside. They check his id and he goes inside.
- [17:39]
MacKenzie
What?
- [17:39]
Harper
And I'm standing there at the door with the bouncer, and I did actually have my cousin's id. I handed it to him. Be like, maybe. But she was, like, a lot older than me. And they were like, there's no way this is you.
- [17:54]
Hannah
This is absolutely.
- [17:55]
Harper
Call it a day. Soon I go home and.
- [17:57]
Hannah
Yeah, but he had already gone in. That's so rude.
- [17:59]
Harper
So I had to text him from outside and be like, hey, not gonna happen, man.
- [18:04]
MacKenzie
You already knew. Like, you already said, oh, my God.
- [18:07]
Harper
Yeah, I knew it was coming too.
- [18:08]
Hannah
And I don't like that.
- [18:09]
Harper
Granted, I. I know that that bar. Sometimes they don't. But at the time, I was like, I. I've never been. I was new to the school. I was new to that area, you know, trying to figure out what possibly you could do on a date. I understand sort of the panic of, like, going to this place. So I was still. I was making excuses for him is what I was doing.
- [18:30]
Hannah
Well, also, at 19, are you kidding? Like, we. I. At least I settled for the minimum. The bare minimum.
- [18:38]
MacKenzie
Yeah.
- [18:38]
Harper
We used to, like, my friends and I would, like, we, you know, go sit in a car, in a park and play our favorite music for each other or whatever, you know, that was me, too.
- [18:47]
Hannah
And now it was like, a cool older guy. Yeah, that's cool.
- [18:49]
Harper
And he's like, we're going out to a bar. Okay. Okay. Well, it didn't work, so already sort of an awkward start to the date. And he's like, okay, no worries. We'll go to my friend's house. There's always something happening there. Like, always a party there. And I'm like, all right, that sounds fine. And so we walk a couple of blocks down to his friend's house. We get there, and it is 100% just an intimate hang with the people, like, with the roommates that live there. It was not a party. I basically sat at their kitchen table while he talked to somebody in the other room. It was. It couldn't have been more awkward. I didn't know what to do. So I kind of. After a While I was like, I just feel like these people are, like, trying to chill and watch TV with each other. Like, I think we should go. And he was like, okay. And I remember him being like, all right, well, I'm sorry it didn't work out. You know, kind of like, sorry that this date didn't work out, but we'll. We'll figure out something better for the next time, right? Okay. So that was that night.
- [19:51]
Hannah
Wait, what's his. His quote name?
- [19:53]
Harper
Charlie.
- [19:54]
Hannah
Charlie.
- [19:55]
Harper
Charlie, yes, yes. Sorry. This is Charlie. He who shall not be named his name at the school of Hogwarts. There you go.
- [20:03]
Hannah
There we go.
- [20:04]
Harper
I feel like also, I'm a generally really sociable person. ADHD all over the place. Like, I'll share my life story. I mean, I'm happy. I'm happy to talk about whatever with who and to. To kind of. Yeah. So to go on a date and not have that immediate spark of conversation is rare for me. I could really hold a conversation with a brick wall. So I was like, something wasn't clicking, and I just felt like, okay, we probably won't go out again. I thought, like, all right, I don't see this turning into anything. If we become friends, if we continue to hang out, great, Cool. But I wasn't like, I really hope this turns into a relationship. I was really take it or leave it at the time. So fast forward a little bit. Over winter break, he reached out to me to hang out, and he. I think what he asked me was what I was doing on New Year's. And I explained that I was going to be going into the city and I was going to be hanging out with a friend of mine. We already had plans, so I had to take a ship down there. And I was leaving like a day earlier. When was I. So turns out there was a huge blizzard. I didn't get to leave the day early, and he offered to give me a ride. But in the midst of a blizzard, my dad was like, I don't know this kid. I'm not trusting a random kid to drive you in the snow. Like, I'll drive you. You can meet him and then you could take the train together. And I was like, all right, cool. That's also for me, too. Like, the. The lack of conversation, the little bit of awkwardness. That felt more comfortable. Right? Like, all right, I'll. I'll meet him there. You're on the train. There's a lot going on. You can kind of talk about what's going on around you. That'll be Fine. So we make this plan to just ride together down to the city. And then I had a plan, and he said he had a plan. So we go down together, and it was fine. The trip was fine. And then I. We get off the train, and I'm kind of saying, like, all right, bye. And he's like, well, which subway are you taking? And I'm like, well, I'm taking this one. And he goes, oh, me too. So we get on the train. I had to transfer. He goes, oh, me too. We transfer. Then I'm getting off at, like, a really specific spot that's kind of far out. And I'm like, all right, well, my stop's coming up. And he goes, me, too. Yeah. So we get off the train together, and meanwhile, it was in a neighborhood that, at the time, it was a little sketchy. So my friend was like, I'm gonna meet you at the train when you get here at the station subway. So he did. And I was like, FYI, I'm texting him, like, trying to get service between stops. Like, FYI, there's a guy with me. I don't really know what's going on. He says he has another plan, but we're just gonna ignore this, right? I'm not invited.
- [22:49]
Hannah
As your neighbor, maybe I'm not inviting.
- [22:51]
Harper
A stranger to your friend's house. I just want you to be aware, you know, like that. That sort of heads up. So we get off, and he starts walking with us. And out of obligation, my friend says, like, hey, if you want to come hang out, we're having a get together. It was in the afternoon at that point, so we figured there's New Year's plans. In the evening, he'll probably go to see his friends, but maybe he wants to hang out in the meantime. And I thought kind of a good way to get to know him. Like, Gage. Friends, too. So we are all hanging out, and of course, everybody gets so super drunk super fast because we're 18, it's New Year's, we're on our own in the city for the first time, et cetera. So I drank a giant bottle of wine by myself, and I fell asleep, essentially sitting up in the bathroom. I didn't throw up. I just was, like, sitting against the wall.
- [23:47]
Hannah
I'm meditating now.
- [23:48]
MacKenzie
I've been there, done that.
- [23:49]
Harper
Yeah, I was sitting against the wall like the cold tile and just, like, knocked out, right? I wake up at some point because somebody comes in the bathroom, and it's him, and I see him going through the medicine Cabinet.
- [24:03]
MacKenzie
Oh, no.
- [24:03]
Harper
Like, looking for medications or whatever. And. And he was clearly, like, picking up pill bottles, putting him back kind of situation. And I was like, ooh, red flag, red flag. I'm from a red flag. Like, I was out and still noticed this enough to be like, that's sketchy. Okay, back to bed.
- [24:21]
Hannah
Yeah. You just went back to sleep? Yes. I feel like I would have been like, am I dreaming?
- [24:25]
Harper
There was a little bit of that, for sure. So I fell back asleep in the bathroom, and when I woke up, it was just after midnight, and he was gone, and my best friend was still there. And I asked him, you know, what happened? Like, was he sorry? Also? He, like, brought a stranger in and then knocked out. And he goes, no, he was here until about five minutes before midn. And then he went, I have somewhere to be. I'm gonna go. And he left. And so it had. He had just left a few minutes before I actually came out of my drunken stupor and was like, where did he go? So he didn't really. I mean, seemingly to me, at that point, that indicated that he didn't really have a plan, that maybe, you know, it's like, if he had plans with his friends showing up at 11:55 and. And. And just assuming that you're, like, one block away, you know, was really weird in. In a massive city, you know? So I told my friend what I had seen. He said he had also noticed that and that he had. I don't know if he called him out or he had been like, hey, what do you need? You know, are you looking for Advil? Or whatever? Trying to diffuse it. And he was like, no, no, I'm good. And just kind of walked away and didn't mention it again. Again. So we at that point realized, like, all right, there's some other red flags here that I have to kind of acknowledge. Granted, we're friends, right? At this. At this point, I'm thinking we're friends. He doesn't want to date me. Or maybe he does. I don't know. I'm just gonna let it naturally develop or not. So that was New Year's. That was odd. Very strange.
- [26:15]
Hannah
And did the friend group while you were taking your nap? Was he, like, just getting along with.
- [26:20]
MacKenzie
Everybody while you were taking your nap?
- [26:22]
Harper
Yeah.
- [26:23]
MacKenzie
Really?
- [26:23]
Harper
I. I wish I remembered again. This is, like, over a decade ago, so I think it was. I think the vibe was generally that he was very quiet and just kind of nodding and laughing along with people, but I don't know that anybody really got to know him at all. He's not. Not a talker, so.
- [26:45]
MacKenzie
But.
- [26:45]
Harper
But also, you know, strangely, I feel like he was doing enough of the professional kind of version of maintaining the conversation or answering questions that it wasn't super weird to anyone. The weird part was that he had been in the medicine cabinet. That was really all anyone could comment on this flag. Okay, interesting. Nobody was like, oh, he was super weird. He said some weird stuff. It was just weird that he was there because he didn't know anybody except for me and sleeping. And other than that, he left. So everybody was like, that was strange. Okay, moving on. But again, you're young in the city, you know, you meet strangers, you become their best friend for 10 minutes, and then you never see them again. Right? That's part of it. So, you know, everybody kind of let it go pretty quickly. So then after winter break, we were back at school and he was asking me to hang out a lot. Like reaching out or texting or, you know, Facebook messenger at the time or whatever. It was asking to hang out. And it really felt like he was trying to go on a date again. And at the time, I was like, again with the on again, off again boyfriend. And kind of, I was dilly dallying, for lack of a better phrase. I was like, putting it off a little bit.
- [28:11]
MacKenzie
No, I think that's a perfect phrase. Yeah, like dilly dallying. That's a real word.
- [28:15]
Harper
Yeah, I was trying to. I was trying to make it less weird that I was trying not to hang out. So it was happening, you know, let him down lightly, I guess. Plus, there was nothing established. He wasn't pointedly asking me out to dinner. It wasn't like, I want to take you on a date. It was like, what are you doing? Let's hang out. What are you doing? And. And so just. And also, I took more than the allotted amount of credits every single semester of college. Huge, massive nerd. So I was busy.
- [28:43]
Hannah
What are you doing? Your homework?
- [28:45]
Harper
Yeah, I was super busy. And what started to happen was that I was also very social and a butterfly. Like, flitting from friend group to friend group, meeting people, trying to make connections, playing music, doing a bunch of stuff. So a couple of times I got out of class and I'd walk back to my dorm and he would be outside.
- [29:07]
MacKenzie
And I thought, like, creepily or like sexily.
- [29:10]
Harper
I guess at the time, I couldn't tell. At the time I was kind of like, it's flattering. You know, he texted. I didn't text back. Cause I Was in class. Now he, like, got out of class at the same time and figured he could catch me or something. And I kind of chalked it up to just, like, he was trying to get ahold of me and. Cool. Cause we were all living on campus. Or he wasn't, but. Which is another. Another thing.
- [29:31]
Hannah
Right.
- [29:31]
Harper
But my friends and I were living on campus. Maybe he was just trying to look for a friend group, you know? And then a couple of times turned into a lot of times that he was outside, and it ended up being that, like, I would be with friends elsewhere, or. Like I said, I'm. I was relatively local, so sometimes I'd be hanging out with my friends from home. I wouldn't even be on campus. And I get a text from a dormmate. It was a pretty small dorm, being like, hey, Charlie's here. Did. Did you have plans with him? Because he's just sitting here. No, I don't.
- [30:06]
MacKenzie
I guess just sitting here, not sure what's going on.
- [30:10]
Harper
And I check my phone, and I didn't have a text from him. So, like, how. Why is he waiting outside my dorm if he's not reached out to me and he doesn't know where I am? You know, I was it. That kind of school. Kind of. But again, he didn't live on campus. The area where the dorms were was not where the. Where the classes were. So you'd have to kind of get in a car to get over there. So he was driving, parking, sitting outside.
- [30:38]
MacKenzie
Oh, okay.
- [30:39]
Harper
So it wasn't as casual as it.
- [30:42]
MacKenzie
Sounds, but it wasn't as casual as it sounds.
- [30:45]
Harper
No, it was. It was weird. It was weird. And also, having my dorm mates tell me that they were a little weirded out really set that off for me.
- [30:54]
Hannah
Yeah. And then you're like, do I have to confront him and tell him he's making people uncomfortable? Like, what do you do?
- [31:00]
Harper
I kept putting it off. And then I think the kicker for me was that I was at a campus show, like, at a music show, and I was towards the front with a bunch of my friends, girls from my dorm, you know, other people that I had collected, like, over the first couple of semesters.
- [31:19]
Hannah
The freshman friends.
- [31:20]
Harper
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And we were up at the front of the show, and it was just about to start, and it was pretty close to where the dorms were. So granted, this was, like, in a central location. But I get a text from him asking, what are you doing tonight? And I texted back, not thinking anything. And I was like, I'm at this Show. Because also, it's like, open campus show. I thought everybody was kind of going to the show or whatever. And he goes, oh, that's cool. Maybe I'll go. And I turned around to the back of the room at one point, and he was already staring at me, like, as I sent that response. So I was. I think that was the kicker because at the time I was like, you can come and hang out with us. But again, like, I'm with a lot of people. There's a lot of buffer there.
- [32:10]
Hannah
It felt safer than.
- [32:12]
Harper
Yeah, yeah. I was kind of thinking, all right, we're out in public. I'm already with a bunch of people who I know I'm going to walk home with. And I wasn't sure whether to be nervous about all of this yet.
- [32:24]
Hannah
Totally.
- [32:24]
Harper
Salud.
- [32:25]
Hannah
Oh, yeah, sorry.
- [32:27]
Harper
Salud.
- [32:29]
Hannah
So, anyway, so wait, when you say staring at you, like, I'm imagining a person taller than the rest of the audience, like, standing, not dancing, and just, like, standing, staring.
- [32:38]
Harper
1,000.
- [32:39]
Hannah
What?
- [32:39]
Harper
It was like, 1,000%.
- [32:42]
MacKenzie
Oh.
- [32:43]
Harper
And not a big enough room to make it, like.
- [32:47]
Hannah
Like he wasn't even pretending to, like, step, touch. Like, he just fully was, like, locking. Locking in.
- [32:53]
Harper
Yeah. The. The size of the room, the. Where we were. He couldn't even have pretended like he didn't see me. Also, I have always dyed my hair crazy colors. I'm pretty sure at the time it was like, I don't know, pink or something. Or. No, I had a. I had, like, rogue stripes or something. I don't know. You know what I mean? Like, I just. There was no chance.
- [33:13]
Hannah
Yeah, he knew he was. He. Target acquired. It sounds like it was.
- [33:18]
Harper
Well, yeah. And again, like, maybe. Maybe he's just trying to be friends with me. I'm trying to be cool. Maybe I'll hook him up with one of my friends. I don't know. Like, I don't know. It was still very early days at this point, so I was nervous, but kept chalking it up to my own insecurity, my own nervousness about being at a new school, meeting new people. Also, having really only had one major long relationship, I was trying to convince myself that I was making up the weirdness that I was assuming something that was not the case. So I kind of kept giving it this shot of like, you're crazy. My. My ex had to gaslit me into believing I was crazy. So I was also just kind of going like, you're. You're nuts. Like, let. Let it go. He's not that into you, you know, It'll be fine.
- [34:19]
Hannah
So I get that so much.
- [34:21]
Harper
Yeah. Just kind of insane. So more time passed, and he kept inviting me to hang out. And there was this area in my hometown that has, like, really beautiful houses. And I don't know what he clocked in me, but I. I love arch. Like, weird architecture, old architecture. And he, at one point, I think just in a bid to get me to hang out with him, said, my dad owns one of those houses. Nobody ever stays there. But it's sort of like, you know, we have. We have all this cool stuff and antiques and, you know, interesting furniture. You should come see it. And again, I'm like, you're. Don't be weird, Harper. Pull it together.
- [35:11]
MacKenzie
Don't be weird.
- [35:12]
Harper
Don't be weird. Pull it together. Go on the date. Like, you know, you're. You're making a bigger deal of this than you need to. So I go. And the house is beautiful but very strange. It's a massive structure, and it's, like, colonial era. So it's very old, like, 1700s. So there's a lot of features of that house that involves small hallways, tiny doors, little hidden staircases, like, a lot.
- [35:45]
Hannah
Of details that, like, there might be a ghost there.
- [35:48]
Harper
Definitely. There are lots of ghosts there.
- [35:50]
Hannah
Yeah, that vibe, for sure.
- [35:51]
Harper
There was all kinds of old antiques, old big game framed on the wall, just staring at you creepily through the house. Creepily. Yeah, definitely. Haunted portraits everywhere and glass cases of unknown oddities. That's a good word for it. So it was creepier and creepier the further into the house we got. And one thing I realized now as an adult, I know I have anxiety, but at the time, I learned that.
- [36:21]
MacKenzie
As an adult, too. Good for you.
- [36:22]
Hannah
Yeah. At the time, you're like, why? Am I crazy?
- [36:25]
Harper
Well, at the time, what was crazy was I felt this physical feeling like my collarbones were getting closer and closer together. Like my chest was closing in is what I was feeling. But I didn't know what it was. So I kept, like, doing. I'm like, what the heck's happening to me? I'm, like, rubbing my, like, chest, trying to be like, don't be nervous. Don't be weird. But something was setting off physically in my body, being like, something's wrong. And we get further into the house, and there's this tiny, very narrow staircase. And I. I realized as we're. He's like, oh, yeah, I'll show you upstairs. It wasn't. It was, like, from the days when people had slaves quarters. So quite literally, it was Like a less than two foot wide staircase up to a tiny hallway with these tiny doors off of it. And as I'm walking up there, I'm like, I'm having trouble breathing. I'm realizing if I need to get out of here, I don't know the way. That was why I realized I was freaking out. If I needed to runs, I didn't know how to run. And he was behind me and he was not saying. I realized the other part of it that was the reason that I was having an anxiety attack, I now know, was that he wasn't saying a word. I was talking a million miles a minute to fill the space. Like I do, as I'm known to do.
- [37:54]
MacKenzie
Well, many people do.
- [37:55]
Hannah
Yeah, absolutely.
- [37:56]
Harper
Also, just, you're in a stranger's house going, what's this? What's that? You know, it's full of stuff that is creepy and weird. I. Which I'm creepy and weird. That's fine. Like I'm. I like, I like the macabre. I'm fine with that. But. Yeah, yeah, but this was above and beyond my comfort zone. And then, and then.
- [38:15]
Hannah
And he wasn't helping.
- [38:16]
Harper
And he wasn't helping the joke that I have since come up with. And I can bring this up later, but he was just looking at me, looking at things. By now, my fiance now always says, are you looking at me looking at things? Whenever I'm just spacing out. Oh, so it's become a joke. But that was what I felt. I felt like, okay, he's just watching me, trying to fill this void of space of no conversation and weird stuff. And, you know, I. I really didn't know what to do. We get to the end of the hallway and there's another staircase down. And I'm like, okay. I know that it's just probably a wraparound. So I'm like, okay, seeing the light at the end of the tunnel and we get down the stairs and we're in the front foyer room where we started. Thank God.
- [39:05]
Hannah
Yeah.
- [39:05]
Harper
And I'm trying to calm myself down. I'm also trying to figure out my exit because I'm realizing I should go. I'm not trying to run. I'm not trying to make this weird again. Nothing had been said and nothing had happened to make me run from this man, but my body was having a physical reaction I couldn't ignore. And.
- [39:28]
MacKenzie
Oh, we talk about that so much.
- [39:30]
Hannah
Yeah, it's. Your body knows before you know that femtuition.
- [39:34]
Harper
That was it.
- [39:35]
Hannah
Yeah.
- [39:36]
Harper
Yep. And I, I just had to get out. And so I sat down in this armchair in the front room. I can see my car from the window. And he sits down in a chair across from me. And I. I had this moment where I really got the ick. Big time. He, like, shuffled over to me without standing up all the way, and he tried to kiss me.
- [39:58]
Hannah
Oh, I'm sorry. But, yeah.
- [39:59]
Harper
And again, like, I'm going, okay, just because you have the ick. Just because this doesn't mean you're unsafe. Whatever. Just don't. Don't make this person feel bad. You know, there's no reason to. I never want anybody to feel bullied or. Or insulted or less than I. I really just didn't. I was like, how do I navigate this to get myself out of the situation while being polite enough to, like, leave our friendship open ended and just get out? I don't know. So I pretended. And I've never done this before or after this in my entire life. I literally just picked up my phone and was like, hi, mom.
- [40:35]
Hannah
There you go. Love fake phone call.
- [40:37]
Harper
And I was like, my mom really needs my help with my grandma. I have to go. I'm so sorry.
- [40:43]
MacKenzie
I love this. Oh, my God.
- [40:45]
Hannah
So he had shuffled over and went.
- [40:48]
Harper
He kissed me and. And I, like, pulled the phone out. Like, I went to your mid kiss. Mid kiss. 100%. It was.
- [40:57]
Hannah
You're like, oh, man.
- [40:59]
Harper
It was. I'm joking now.
- [41:02]
MacKenzie
I mean, hey, mom has a guy.
- [41:03]
Hannah
What you got to do?
- [41:06]
Harper
It was so extreme that I. I just. I also didn't. I don't think I'd ever had an anxiety attack before. I've never done that. I didn't. I was in full panic mode, but I. But survival panic mode of just get. Just get yourself out of this situation, you know? And he was understanding. He just let me go. I get in my car, and I peeled out of that driveway, rushed home, like, get me out of here. But again, even in retrospect, I couldn't figure. I didn't feel like anything concrete had happened to make me react like that. You know, he hadn't said anything disrespectful. He hadn't made me feel uncomfortable in.
- [41:46]
MacKenzie
I mean, but it was enough to make alarm bells go off somewhere.
- [41:49]
Harper
Yeah, not on purpose, but the looking at me.
- [41:51]
Hannah
Isn't that so frustrating?
- [41:52]
Harper
Looking at me, looking at things? Yeah. I just couldn't.
- [41:54]
Hannah
You don't know how to explain your feelings. I feel like that's just there. That's how I feel with. Whenever I have stuff like that. It is like, that's the hardest part, is that I don't really know how to articulate it for a long time. And then you feel crazy.
- [42:08]
Harper
Well, exactly. And having been so gaslit in my previous relationship that I was crazy. That was the refrain that kept coming up. That I was crazy makes me sad. And I had just been diagnosed as adhd, and my ex had been like, oh, that medication is really messing with you. And I was like, oh. Because I can think for the first time and I'm paying attention to your bullshit.
- [42:32]
MacKenzie
Yeah, sorry, sorry.
- [42:33]
Harper
I don't know if it occurs, but you may.
- [42:35]
MacKenzie
Exactly.
- [42:36]
Hannah
You may.
- [42:36]
Harper
Okay. So, yeah, that was. What was happening, was I was getting my brain in order and realizing, like, all right, this person isn't treating me well. I'm not crazy. But at the time, when you're told that time and time again for five years straight, it's really hard to get rid of that feeling. So I kept making excuses for this person. But then after that visit, because I think. I assume because we had kissed, the showing up outside ramped up to the point where I was getting reached. I was getting contacted by my dorm mate so often that he was outside that I ended up going to campus security. And I just said to them, I don't want to get this person in trouble, but I need security to know because they're walking around every night that he's not been invited.
- [43:37]
Hannah
So if you're making a report, essentially.
- [43:40]
Harper
I wanted it to be somewhere on record that I had someone showing outside of my dorm.
- [43:45]
MacKenzie
Yes. Good.
- [43:46]
Harper
And reaching out to me incessantly to hang out. It got. It got pretty absurd because of how many times I had turned it down. And then finally I. I remember in the summer, I had gotten back together with the old ex, and he was reaching out to me. And I could tell that at that point, because he couldn't show up at my dorm because we weren't in school, I could tell that he was getting, like, pissed off. Like, no mystery there. He was, like, getting a little bit rude and being like, I. I try to hang out with you all the time. I don't get what your problem is, why. You know, why you're so busy. You know, you have so much going on, you have so many friends. You can't make time for me, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, first of all, we're not dating. Second of all, I had started dating someone, and it's not a visitable, but take a hint.
- [44:51]
MacKenzie
I need to figure out, yeah, take a hint.
- [44:53]
Hannah
What's your first poof. People don't want to be with you, and that's okay.
- [44:56]
Harper
But this isn't now, like, you know, almost a year. I mean, it was the beginning of the summer, so it hadn't been a full year since we'd met, but it was like, I've really put this off. I'm telling you, all the times that we'd hung out. You know what I mean? So it was like four times or whatever, that we had seen each other out in social situations and still, like, I would say twice or three times a week, he's showing up outside my dorm, waiting there. Whether or not I'm coming home, who knows?
- [45:22]
MacKenzie
Don't like it.
- [45:23]
Harper
So fast forward to summer. I'm like, I know I need to say something at this point, because if he's going to start getting edgy and feeling neglected that I'm not hanging out with him, even as a friend, I just have to make sure I'm being concrete and clear about my boundaries, my. My intentions. Maybe I didn't set that out clearly enough. I'm glad. You know, I mentioned to campus security, they didn't take any action, but maybe I need to be clear about my boundaries now that I have a little distance. We're not on the same campus. I'm at home for the summer. I can do this, right? So I so distinctly remember this. I actually went to my mom, and she is like, the greatest support system of all time.
- [46:10]
MacKenzie
Oh, good.
- [46:11]
Harper
And we're best friends. She's great.
- [46:12]
MacKenzie
I love her already.
- [46:14]
Harper
I know. So I went to my mom and I said, look, here's the situation. She kind of knew the background because I had told her about him initially when she told me that, oh, we went to the same school. So I'm like, look, you know, he's handsome, he's great, whatever, but I am not trying to date this person. There's just something wrong. Like, there's something that we don't connect on. And, you know, it's not necessarily something wrong with him or me, but it's just, this isn't going to work out. And I don't know. I'd never broken up with anyone or had to let anybody down. And I was like, how do I do this? I don't know. So we crafted this text message and response because he was texting me and getting kind of like, you know, what the hell? And I was like, all right. I said, I just want to be clear about my intentions, and I'm not sure of what yours are, but I have. I have started seeing someone. So, you know, I just wanted to be clear. I'd be happy to hang out as friends, but, you know, I'm. I am off the market, essentially. And I'll never forget his response ever. Word for word, verbatim. It's like, stuck in the confines of my mind. He goes, how dare you be so conceited as to think I'm trying to date you? What, that.
- [47:31]
Hannah
I wish I was surprised. Yeah, I wish I was surprised. But that is the thing. You get so in your head and you're like, oh, I don't want to be rude. I don't want to assume anything. And then they always say that. They're like, what? I wasn't. What? I wasn't hitting on you.
- [47:47]
MacKenzie
I feel like they. I feel like they really sound like, though.
- [47:49]
Harper
Well, that's why I hadn't wanted to make that assumption or say anything up to that point, because until it seemed really obvious that he wanted to go on a date, his asking me to hang out was very casual. So I didn't want to make that assumption. Also, I'm sure my middle school self was like, he doesn't like you, you know, or something, but you waited a.
- [48:11]
Hannah
Year to finally said something. And no, he was just being butthurt.
- [48:16]
Harper
I just said, I'm taken, essentially, but I'm happy to be friends. And his response, how dare you be so conceited as to think. And I'll never forget it, because it was the most shocking response in that moment to get because I had literally gone to campus security about this man. I mean, it was obvious that he had a crush, this guy.
- [48:39]
MacKenzie
Yeah.
- [48:40]
Harper
At minimum, that he was interested, right?
- [48:43]
Hannah
Yeah. The kiss was like.
- [48:44]
Harper
Yeah, he kissed me hard.
- [48:45]
MacKenzie
Proven wild. This guy is wild.
- [48:49]
Harper
And so I at that moment went like, fuck it. I don't feel bad anymore.
- [48:54]
Hannah
Good.
- [48:54]
Harper
I'm going to leave that right where that landed.
- [48:57]
Hannah
What did your mom say?
- [48:58]
Harper
She goes. I think she said something like, good riddance, goodbye. Yeah. Yeah, that was that. So that was that summer, and when we got back to school, I was in. That was right at the time that I realized I was not going to be an art major. So I started to shift my class schedule, and I don't think we had a class together that first semester, second year. So right after winter break, in the spring semester, beginning of spring semester, we did have a class together. But the first day, I was waiting outside the art building again like a degenerate smoking a cigarette, trying to be cool. And as I'm Sitting there on the brick wall all, you know, whatever a 24 about it. He walks up from the parking lot and he's got a cigarette lit and he sits down next to me and he was like, oh, how you been? The first thing I notice about him is that he had very clearly shaved his own head. Like, you could see that hairs were not consistently the same length.
- [50:03]
Hannah
Okay.
- [50:04]
Harper
And he had also bleached it.
- [50:07]
MacKenzie
You bleached it and shaved. Oh, bless you.
- [50:10]
Harper
He was giving Eminem. It was.
- [50:11]
MacKenzie
He was giving Eminem.
- [50:13]
Hannah
Yeah.
- [50:14]
Harper
And not like, I know that that's a thing people do now at the time. No, not a thing. So it was alarming. Oh, my God.
- [50:21]
Hannah
So funny.
- [50:21]
Harper
Like maybe weird art student vibe. So like, maybe not so alarming because art students do weird stuff all the time. But.
- [50:29]
Hannah
Yeah, but you still double take.
- [50:32]
Harper
Well, also, he's otherwise had been a very put together person. His whole family is that way. I know that. The sidebar, his mom is a life coach. So, like, they're all really put together, these people.
- [50:44]
MacKenzie
Oh, boy.
- [50:45]
Harper
And daddy's a billionaire. That's the background.
- [50:47]
MacKenzie
So a billionaire married that guy? Lord, no.
- [50:51]
Harper
It was really. It was really hard knowing.
- [50:53]
MacKenzie
I'm just kidding, you guys. Guys know me better than that. I'm joking.
- [50:56]
Harper
It was. It was really hard knowing that. That, like, his. His parents had a lot of respect in the community and that his family had a lot of money. It was really hard to ignore that just as being sort of proof of his character in a way at the time.
- [51:13]
Hannah
Entitlement.
- [51:14]
Harper
I was thinking, he's a respectable, you know, community member in good standing. I don't know. I wasn't thinking that at the time. But I get part of my, you know, in the back of my mind, I'm thinking, they're all put together. He's usually pretty buttoned up. So when I saw him there, clearly not doing well, seemingly I didn't know how to approach it. So I said something like, I like your hair. Because I was trying to make conversation like I always do. And he goes, oh, thanks. I got it cut at enter barbershop name here. My ex, who I had gotten back with at the time, was one of two barbers there. I said, who cut your hair? And he says, my boyfriend's name at the time. And I said, that's my boyfriend. And when I said that, the man sitting on this brick wall with me stands up like, shoots up, turns on his heel like a cartoon character, and speed. Walks back to the parking lot, gets in his car, slams the Door peels out of the parking lot and rage drives out of campus. I mean, like, gone.
- [52:37]
MacKenzie
Oh, my God.
- [52:38]
Harper
Yeah. I didn't know. All I had said, baby, that this was my boyfriend. And I had already said, I'm seeing someone. So he knew that and he knew who I was seeing. If he went to him for a.
- [52:49]
Hannah
Haircut, I feel like he went to him intentionally. No, right.
- [52:52]
MacKenzie
Oh, a hundred percent.
- [52:55]
Harper
The math ain't mathing. He knew what he was doing. Yeah, he knew what he was doing. Also very clear, he did not go to my friends for a cut. You know, it was.
- [53:04]
Hannah
Wait, really?
- [53:05]
Harper
No, he had clearly done it himself. There were, like, long hairs sticking out. It was not a mistake because he looked crazy. He looked. He didn't look well. Like, that was.
- [53:14]
Hannah
Maybe he was trying to break you up and be like, your boyfriend's a really stylist. He doesn't have a future in this game.
- [53:23]
MacKenzie
Oh, my God, I love it.
- [53:25]
Harper
Maybe he was trying to, but also knowing that that's. I just can't wrap my head around. And to this day, I'm, like, struggling. He has to have known that he was saying my boyfriend at the time's name back to me, and then hearing me say, oh, that's my boyfriend, he just storms away. Was the weirdest reaction anyone could have.
- [53:49]
MacKenzie
Yeah, for sure.
- [53:49]
Harper
I was like, something is so far off. Not only that, but he had just told me that the class I was waiting to walk into, that I was smoking a cigarette before, was he had the same class as me. And then he gets in his car and leaves and does not come back to that class ever again.
- [54:11]
MacKenzie
Like, ever, ever.
- [54:13]
Hannah
So what do you. What do you think? He didn't actually have that class.
- [54:18]
Harper
That's exactly what I think. Or he did and he just. He just dropped it.
- [54:23]
Hannah
Yeah, I think he was following you around.
- [54:25]
Harper
Yeah, exactly. Well, technically, we took the same class as freshman year, so technically, he had to take that class, so I don't know, maybe he switched. He definitely didn't take that class with me, so we never had another class together, for the record.
- [54:43]
Hannah
Thank goodness.
- [54:45]
Harper
So I didn't see him after that at all for a long time. Like, that was. So that was, let me think, beginning of soph or middle of sophomore year. Make it through the whole of sophomore year. He's not showing up outside anymore. Like, he was gone. I figured he dropped out.
- [55:03]
Hannah
Yeah. I just kept driving.
- [55:05]
Harper
Yeah, he didn't. Yeah, didn't stop. Goodbye. I really don't know whether he was in classes, and I just didn't see him, but I don't think so. I think he might have taken, like, a mental health break from school, which is fine. But it was certainly weird that I had seen him that first. That first day of the semester, very pointedly seen him there and then. And then not seen him again for the rest of the year. That was very strange, for sure. And then same, like, went back to school junior year, didn't see him first semester. I don't know that I was taking any art classes, so I wasn't as much on the side of campus. Also, he wouldn't have known where my new dorm was, which was great, but I kind of left it, like, all right, that was a weird experience. I'm just going to let it go. You know, maybe he's gone, maybe he's not. Maybe he's moved on to somebody else. I hope not. But at least, like, campus security has an idea that if someone else reports something, they'll know it's not the first offense. So I really just wanted to make sure that they had something written down. And the. And the two people who are in charge of security were amazing. So they, like, definitely had a note. They didn't let anybody else know, but they had a note in case somebody else complained.
- [56:24]
Hannah
Good.
- [56:25]
Harper
Which was. Yeah, that's all I could do. So fast forward again to end of junior year. It was, like, in the spring, still cold out. We were having a. We had a lot of shows, a lot of collective, like, DJ shows or bands on campus. And there were two local bars where we would host those things. And again, small school, so everybody would come out, and it was super fun. And my friend had started a series of shows, and we. We were at one of them. My roommate and I went, and her and I stuck together. Also. I was dding, so I wasn't drinking. So I drove me and my roommate to this party, and I wasn't gonna drink. So we were at this party, and we're inside by the bar, and my roommate was gonna go get a drink, or she was waiting for her drink or something, and I feel a tap on the shoulder, and I turn around and he's there. And he looked more like himself again, not bleached hair. This has, like, been a year at this point since I had last seen him. Since he sped off, like a full year had gone by. So he was kind of back to being himself, or he looked more like himself. He seemed a lot more sociable. He was a lot more talkative. And he kept offering to buy me a drink. I Think I counted. He had offered to buy me a drink 19 times while we were there. And I told him 19 times that I was Dee Dee and I was not drinking.
- [57:52]
MacKenzie
And why do you have to say that so many? Why?
- [57:55]
Harper
Oh, we'll find out. He was. I thought he was. I thought he looked a little better. Like, he was very talkative. He seemed a lot more on the ball. He was talking to other people. But then he kept coming back to me and offering, like, hey, can I buy you a drink? Like, again, like, it was new information. No, you can't. We were. We were going also, like, alternating between being inside and outside. It was just starting to feel kind of nice out in the spring. So we were kind of in and out all night. And it wasn't just inside that I saw him. We would go outside, he'd be outside. We would go inside, he'd be inside, and back and forth and back and forth. And then my roommate grabs my arm like the best friend that she is, and goes, we have to go. And we have to go right now. Just like that. And I was like, okay, no questions asked. I'm sober. Let's go. So we get in the car, and as I'm closing my door, he walks out and he goes, you ladies have a good night. And he goes and gets in his car, and he drives off. We're like, you too. I shut my door, and my friend turns to me and goes, well, we can go back in now. But the way that he was looking at you, and, I mean, the whole time. And I don't mean this in a funny way. It looked like he wanted to eat you.
- [59:12]
MacKenzie
Oh, my God.
- [59:12]
Harper
And I was like, all right. I thought we were done with this game.
- [59:17]
Hannah
I guess he's back.
- [59:18]
Harper
Well, so I thought, okay, I'm gonna have my head on a swivel from here. Cause I just don't know.
- [59:24]
MacKenzie
There it is. Yep.
- [59:25]
Harper
Yeah. And, you know, again, I'm DD most of the time, so I'm really gonna pay attention if he starts to show up outside of my dorm or whatever. I'm, like, preparing myself for round two. Right. Like, yeah.
- [59:37]
Hannah
Were you. When you, like, saw his face in the bar, what went through your mind?
- [59:42]
Harper
I think because it had been almost. Or over a year, I thought, like, maybe he had to sort some shit out. And it's fine. It's okay.
- [59:53]
MacKenzie
Now, is this kind of like when you get a tattoo and then it hurts real bad, but then you forget how bad it hurts you? I'm gonna go get another tattoo. And you're like, shit, this really hurts. I forgot 100%.
- [60:01]
Hannah
That makes sense.
- [60:03]
Harper
Yep.
- [60:03]
Hannah
Maybe he's changed.
- [60:04]
Harper
Maybe this won't be as bad.
- [60:05]
MacKenzie
Maybe it didn't really hurt as much as I remembered.
- [60:07]
Harper
Yeah. So three days go by, and I get a text message from a friend who is also a local person who also hung out around the school. So one of the only people I knew that also knew him, because that's the other part of this, is I kept trying to find out who in my hometown he knew or, like, who knew him or was friends with him. And nobody really seemed to know him or know what was going on with him, because I had asked after he had stormed off, like, is he okay? Is there anybody I can ask? Is he okay? You know, not. I'm not an asshole. I want to make sure that somebody's not in mental distress.
- [60:47]
Hannah
Yeah, he's being erratic. Yeah, totally.
- [60:50]
Harper
Especially for how he looked and the speeding off. And I'm sure he got in trouble for speeding on campus and, you know, whatever. So it was three days later. A mutual friend, one of the only mutual friends or friend. I'm not sure how well he knew the guy. I get a text message anyway, and the text message says, google Charlie's name. That's all it says. First name, last name. Boy, Google his name. But he included in the text message his first and last name. So I'm going, what in what possibly could this be? I'm thinking maybe something like an art show or some weird post online or.
- [61:27]
Hannah
Yeah, like, maybe he, like, painted you.
- [61:29]
Harper
Oh, my God.
- [61:30]
Hannah
Could you be surprised? I would not be surprised.
- [61:33]
Harper
Well, fast forward to friend texting me. You have to Google his name. And I was sitting in my dorm room on my laptop, and I type in his name, and a mugshot comes up. So.
- [61:48]
Hannah
What?
- [61:49]
Harper
Yeah, sorry. I feel like I should give you a little bit of a warning here.
- [61:53]
Hannah
We got one.
- [61:54]
Harper
Okay. I feel like I can sort of fill in the gaps of the story, but the headline didn't make a whole lot of sense. So I feel I must tell you what happened. That way you. You understand.
- [62:07]
MacKenzie
Okay.
- [62:07]
Harper
Kind of how. How this all came about. So in the year that I hadn't heard from him, it turned out that I hadn't heard from him because he was dating somebody and they had gotten pretty serious. They had dated for, I think, a year, year and a half or so, and then unrelated to anything or seemingly, they were happy in their relationship. I don't know. I. I didn't actually know her, but she did go to the same school, and she was also local, so there was a couple of common ground things there. They had. Right before I had seen him at the bar when he had offered to buy me a bunch of drinks. They had just broken up. When they broke up, they were at a dinner in the middle of the town where our college is, and she broke up with him over dinner. It was apparently okay. You know, sad, but okay. And when she was leaving the dinner, walking across the street to go to her car, she was hit by a car, not by him, which was my first thought at the time. It was mine, too, not by him. But that is what I thought. Initially. I was freaking out, like, okay, he is crazy. Here we go. Well, wait for it. So it was unrelated, but she was hit by a car, and she was in a coma because of her injuries. And she ended up in a head trauma center locally where they monitor, they watch patients and family can visit and that kind of thing when they're trying to see how brain activity develops and while people are in a coma. So she was in this hospital, and granted, she had just broken up with him right before, like, I mean, minutes before this happened. So she made her call. Right. But her mom was still keeping communication with him. He had been to visit a couple of times with the family, and, yeah, just, I mean, like, you know, paying respects, Talking to her helps, you know, whatever helps. It's a familiar voice. And at some point, her mom started to get pretty uncomfortable with how he was talking about her progress. And she felt like he was kind of. She. She was getting hope. The doctors had said they'd seen some improved brain activity, and so the mom had contacted him to say. Her mom had contacted him to say, so that, you know, there's been some good news. There's some improved brain activity, really hopeful. And he screamed at her on the phone and said, no, there's not. And at that point, the mother of the girl went to the front desk and took his name off the visitors list.
- [64:58]
Hannah
Yeah, I think that makes sense, because it didn't make.
- [65:01]
Harper
It was irrational. It was.
- [65:03]
MacKenzie
Sounds appropriate.
- [65:04]
Harper
Like, yeah, he was obviously angry, and she couldn't figure out what was going on. And, you know, it just seemed like, okay, I don't. I don't want to subject my kid. You know, she's in her most fragile state of her life. I don't feel I can trust this person around her. So she took his name off the list and actually said that he was not allowed in to see her. He had signed into the hospital under a Fake name. He had gone up to the room. The nurse said later that he had tried to close the door something like four or five times. He kept shutting the door, and the nurse kept coming and opening it, saying, you have to keep all these doors open. We monitor these patients.
- [65:45]
MacKenzie
Yeah, yeah.
- [65:45]
Harper
You can't close the door. You know, I understand you might want private time, but that's not how this works. You have to keep this door open. The last time the door was closed, the nurse goes up, and she had been stabbed seven times.
- [66:01]
Hannah
Oh, my goodness.
- [66:03]
Harper
He was gone, but standing in the parking lot with the knife in his hand because he was. He couldn't. He had locked himself out of his car. He was so up on multiple drugs that he didn't know where he was. Seemingly, when the cops showed up, they just arrested him right there. I mean, they didn't have to go looking for him. He was still standing there. He was right there. Yeah. In a daze.
- [66:33]
Hannah
Oh, my. Wait.
- [66:35]
Harper
My feelings were.
- [66:36]
Hannah
I don't know what I expected.
- [66:37]
Harper
Extremely validated in that moment. I don't know. Yeah, it's. It's hard to know. Like, also in my. In my experience of him, like, I. Of course, I had felt uncomfortable, but again, there had been no actual. Other than sort of a disrespectful text message. There had been nothing to meet it, to validate my irrational anxiety. There was just this feeling I couldn't explain. And in this moment, I'm looking at his mugshot, reading this story, trying to figure out. And there wasn't as much context for the story at the time, being like, okay, what. H. How. How. What happened here? So it turns out that he was schizophrenic, that he was on medication, off medication, was taking other supplemental medications and I'm sure other recreational drugs or drinking, and he snapped. Fully Just snapped.
- [67:42]
Hannah
Wait, did she survive?
- [67:44]
Harper
So she was airlifted to the medical center again for a second time, and they were able to stabilize her, but at least one of the stab wounds was directly in her lung, and she was still in the coma. So she was still fighting for her life, but contracted pneumonia and ended up passing away. Because of the pneumonia? It wasn't because of the pneumonia. It was because she got stabbed in the fucking lung. Sorry. Yeah.
- [68:12]
MacKenzie
Yeah, for sure.
- [68:13]
Harper
And it was with. It was two months later that she passed away, so.
- [68:17]
MacKenzie
Oh, my God. I can't even imagine her family.
- [68:21]
Harper
Oh, like, having.
- [68:23]
Hannah
I'm so sorry for her family.
- [68:24]
MacKenzie
And then having the hope after the car accident, just to have it stripped away.
- [68:27]
Hannah
Oh, my God, you're right. Yeah. Like, they thought she was going to be okay. And then to have this happen, we, like, let's take a moment for her family.
- [68:37]
MacKenzie
Yeah. We were so sorry for her family. That must have just been awful to have that, that hope alone and then to have it taken away. Oh, man.
- [68:47]
Harper
Very unfortunate. I went directly to the detective. I, I brought my phone, I brought my receipts. I was like, I'm. I need a restraining order. I don't know.
- [69:00]
MacKenzie
Immediately, please.
- [69:01]
Harper
Being charged with, I need to know, you know, am I safe? Is he arrested? Is he forever arrested? There's no bail here, right? Like, I need to know what's happening. And essentially, because he had been really careful, I did have documentation with the secure campus security. They wrote me a letter. I had documentation from friends. I had a bunch of texts being like, he's outside again. So, like, I had these things, but he hadn't threatened me. He hadn't been inside of my house. There was no police report, so I didn't have enough to get a restraining order at all.
- [69:35]
Hannah
Oh, that. That bugs me.
- [69:37]
Harper
Yeah, the detective told me that right away, which my mom was pissed about.
- [69:40]
MacKenzie
But I bet she was.
- [69:42]
Hannah
Well, because you were really. Yeah, you, like, you took action at times.
- [69:47]
Harper
Yeah, I was like, maybe 19 or 20 by this point, so I was like, I still need, like, a parent. Like, what am I doing?
- [69:54]
Hannah
You know, I feel like also him stabbing another romantic person should count toward evidence of.
- [70:02]
Harper
That's what I said.
- [70:03]
Hannah
Protecting you, too.
- [70:05]
Harper
That's what I said to the detective. Mr. Like, I. I pretty sure that there's a good indication that he's violent and there's a good indication, yeah, it's relevant that he was stalking me for some time before this. Not only that, but I have a witness to. He showed up two and a half, three days before this happened, and I hadn't seen him for over a year. And he tried to buy me a drink 19 times in a row. What was he planning? Like, what was what you were going to be?
- [70:34]
Hannah
What was going to be in that drink?
- [70:36]
MacKenzie
What was I supposed to think?
- [70:37]
Harper
So, of course, I was panicked and nervous, but I couldn't really do anything. I offered what I had to the detectives to be like, look, this isn't an isolated event in a way. I mean, it is in terms of the violence of it, but not yet. It's. Right. He was escalating. Right. That's what I could say. All of this is escalating to, obviously, this horrible moment, and I've been witness to it. For years. And I'm the only person who's been witness to it for years. So I'm the only person that can go to the detective or to anybody else and offer them this information. There's no one. He hasn't talked to anybody else. Turns out he's a total recluse, and he literally didn't talk to anyone else. So I was the only person with any information that he had been spiraling for quite a long time. So I thought, you know, all I can do is give this info and hope for the best, you know? What is he going to get charged with? I asked. And they said attempted murder. Because the jurisdiction where the crime had happened. The police department's heaviest donor. Guess who it was?
- [71:47]
Hannah
No, no, no, no, no.
- [71:48]
Harper
His papa daddy war books. And then the jurisdiction of the. The area where she was airlifted to after the crime had happened. Absolutely said, no. It's a direct result of the injury to her lung. There's no question. So.
- [72:07]
Hannah
So what's the difference between a sentence of attempted murder versus murder? Like, yeah. Is it, like, way less?
- [72:14]
Harper
Oh, yeah. Also, he pled insanity, and he was granted insanity because guess who's also friends with the judge? So I asked the detective, and they said the best I could hope for was three years at a. Three years?
- [72:30]
Hannah
Oh, my goodness.
- [72:31]
MacKenzie
What, Are you joking, dude?
- [72:33]
Harper
Yeah. Three years of. It was like a year and a half in. In an institution, and then a year and a half house arrest or something like that.
- [72:42]
MacKenzie
House arrest?
- [72:44]
Harper
Yeah.
- [72:45]
MacKenzie
Thank you for your. For your generosity, Lord.
- [72:48]
Hannah
Wait, I bet her family was living.
- [72:51]
MacKenzie
Oh, for sure.
- [72:52]
Harper
So I. I have some background on that, too. So I. I didn't want to insert myself anywhere, but I did talk to some friends and her brother. We had some mutual friends. I ended up going to her funeral just to pay my respects. I didn't want to make it weird, and I didn't want to be, like, inserting myself in this obvious, massive tragedy for their family. I have nothing to do with me. I just figured I'd offer the legal information to the police and then leave it at that. And I just wanted to go and say, I'm so sorry for your loss, you know, whatever. But the brother knew who I was, and I think a mutual friend had mentioned, and he wanted to talk. So we went outside after the funeral, and we sat on the steps outside of the chapel and we talked for, like, an hour. And I told him the whole story. I explained the escalation. I explained each and every moment of it to him because he wanted to know. He kept asking. I'm like, I don't want to build this up to any. You know, I don't want to make you feel worse about what's happening. And he was like, I fucking hate this guy. I need to. I need to hear it. I need to know why and how and why this happened the way that it did. So he was asking, and I told him the whole thing, and we became friends actually, after that. He's a really sweet man and very kind, and I think it might have just helped him understand that it wasn't random and that it wasn't isolated. Maybe helped a little bit that, like, he. That also to hear that the guy is pretty charming in the beginning and that his sister had trusted her gut and also left him for a reason and that I could relate to why that reason was and explain. So there was something about it that was really cathartic to get to talk it through with the brother. And, yeah, that was. That was all I knew of it for a while. But I also had this ticking time bomb of three years in the back of my mind, because not only are we from the similar area, but also I was going to move somewhere that I knew that he hung out. And I kept head on a swivel for the first few years that I was in my new location after college, once I graduated, thinking, this is the time where they said he was gonna get out. What if I see him on the street? You know, what if I run into him? What if we're at the same place? Or what if we know the same people? Or, you know, I was just racking my brain for what could possibly happen.
- [75:29]
Hannah
I can't believe that after stabbing someone seven times, you can just three years.
- [75:34]
MacKenzie
Get out, but people go to jail for so much longer for lesser crime. I don't get it.
- [75:39]
Harper
I don't either. It has to have been some kind of deal worked out. Also, he was granted the insanity because of his diagnosis. So that. That does make a massive difference. It would normally be like nine years for attempted. And.
- [75:51]
Hannah
But yeah, I guess to me, it's just like the. The effect is the problem. Like, it's not. There's.
- [75:57]
Harper
Oh, I'm with you.
- [75:58]
Hannah
Obviously, mental illness is so hard, and that's separate from the fact that someone died.
- [76:03]
MacKenzie
Yeah. Yeah, you're absolutely right.
- [76:05]
Hannah
You know what I mean? I don't know.
- [76:06]
Harper
Yeah, 100%. And. And I was racking my brain for, like, how can they. And going to the detectives, I called him multiple times to say, I don't Understand the sentencing. Can you please explain it to me again? Why would this merit. Three years. He's not a safe person. That's been tried and true. For now, multiple years. How am I supposed to feel safe? I guess, right?
- [76:30]
Hannah
How am I supposed to live this way?
- [76:32]
Harper
Yeah. How am I supposed to feel safe going forward, knowing that there's a chance that I could run into this person and is really where my head was at? Well, fast forward. I didn't hear from him again. I didn't see him again. I have actually never seen him again in person, thank God. But I was at work about a year and a half ago or so.
- [76:55]
MacKenzie
Oh, no.
- [76:56]
Harper
And I got a follow request on Instagram from you know who. I don't like it. And I almost. I, like, threw my phone across the room.
- [77:06]
MacKenzie
Yeah, block and delete. Block and delete.
- [77:08]
Harper
Not only that, but my profile was public. I had geotags on my. On my profile on certain photos. I immediately started, like, deleting, deleting, deleting. Removing tags. Removing tags. Made my accounts private. Went on every social media account I had and made it private. I thought if I blocked him and then he searched for me, he might realize that I had blocked him.
- [77:32]
Hannah
He was blocked and get mad. Oh, totally.
- [77:35]
Harper
Or if I denied his friend request, he would also see that. So I left it sitting there for a really long time and I talked to everybody I knew, being like, what do I do? What do you think I should do? What's the way to get this? To just go away or, like, indicate that I'm not interested in being friends at this point? Also, at this point, this happened. By the time that I got this friend request, it had been, let me think, 12 years since this happened. 12 years. Yeah.
- [78:06]
Hannah
Was his Instagram public? We know what he was up to.
- [78:10]
Harper
It was a lot of paintings. It was just paintings. But the Instagram didn't start very long ago. I did notice that. So anyway, so I. I left it. I. Then after it had been maybe like a week or two, I denied. But I just figured it'll go away for him. He'll just see it at the time. I don't think you could see, like, your request right away or whatever. It just would disappear. So I just figured if I wait, if it's not right away, and I disappear off the face of the earth, maybe he'll just forget about it. Right? I don't know. Out of sight, out of mind, hopefully.
- [78:45]
MacKenzie
Yeah.
- [78:45]
Harper
Yeah.
- [78:45]
MacKenzie
Praying.
- [78:46]
Harper
Yeah. How can I do this? How can I eke out of here like, homer into the bushes. Like, get me out of this situation. I then was on Instagram more recently, and a friend of mine from childhood posted a picture with him.
- [79:04]
MacKenzie
No, stop. No, don't do that.
- [79:06]
Hannah
How recently? How recently?
- [79:09]
Harper
Let me preface this by saying that very small kindergarten class that I was in was about four girls.
- [79:16]
MacKenzie
Don't do four.
- [79:18]
Hannah
No way. He's 50% through the kindergarten class at this point. That sounds a lot worse. Oh, yeah, you know. You know what I mean?
- [79:25]
MacKenzie
I knew what you meant.
- [79:30]
Hannah
Anyway, yes, he.
- [79:31]
Harper
Well, yeah, there were about four girls in that class. And the photo that I saw on Instagram was with one of the other girls from that kindergarten class. And we had. We had sort of stayed friends. We had mutuals growing up. So we were really close when we were little. But I. She's great. She's like super cool, super nice, creative, awesome person. So I immediately, my first thought was like, I need to tell her what's going on. But I also need to know what the situation is. Because if she's just mutual friends with him, it's been 12 years. I don't know what the background is. She should know. She should know. Also, I'm assuming if he's not told her what happened, there's no way that he's told her what happened and that they're hanging out. Right. Like, in my mind's eye. There's no way.
- [80:23]
Hannah
No.
- [80:24]
MacKenzie
Like, he's definitely keeping that a secret.
- [80:26]
Harper
There's no way. I mean, I want to like somebody seven times. A woman that you are dating, and then you tell that to the new person that you're dating and, and go on with your life, and that person continues to date you. How is that there was nothing. No part of my logical brain was going, this makes sense. They're dating. But then I'm looking through the post and I start to read the caption. Not only were they dating, they had just bought a house together.
- [80:52]
MacKenzie
Oh, no. Bless.
- [80:55]
Hannah
And at this point, like, I don't know if you googled him. I did at this point. Yeah. Was it still all out there? Like, could you find criminal records?
- [81:03]
Harper
Somebody paid a lot for that.
- [81:05]
MacKenzie
Google paid to.
- [81:07]
Harper
Way down. It was on the second page of Google. Yeah.
- [81:09]
Hannah
Okay, well, Mackenzie, what do you always say? You gotta go. Keep going.
- [81:12]
MacKenzie
Don't go to the first page. You go to the page 37, 48. You just keep going. You don't stop.
- [81:18]
Harper
After this all happened, do you know how hard I go for my friends? I, I background check everybody. I have been verified. I'm up in There figuring out, like, where.
- [81:29]
Hannah
You are with your people here today.
- [81:32]
Harper
I'm not messing. I know I'm paranoid now for a good reason, I think, but whatever. I just. I learned to trust my femme tuition really strongly. I had that feeling years before something horrible happened. But it was like that physical feeling. I now will trust it the second it happens. I know that there's a reason why I'm feeling that hard to do that.
- [81:53]
MacKenzie
Because you don't want to believe what your body is telling you is true. You don't want to believe it.
- [81:59]
Harper
Exactly. I was. I. I got sort of early on validation that that feeling is tuned in really well, and I should just listen to it.
- [82:07]
Hannah
You learn the hard way every time, and I wish you didn't have to, but I get.
- [82:11]
Harper
I mean, I have.
- [82:12]
Hannah
I'm so glad you're telling your story today, because this is. That could have been you.
- [82:17]
Harper
Yeah, exactly.
- [82:18]
Hannah
It could have been any of us.
- [82:19]
Harper
Exactly. I don't think of it like I was right in that line of fire. I mean, I was, but it was. I don't. I'm not trying to sort of feel sorry for myself here. It's more like what happened was a massive tragedy. There was no way. I think I tried to do as much as I could to prevent something horrible from happening. There was no way to anticipate what this guy was gonna do.
- [82:40]
Hannah
Of course not. And we can't live our lives assuming it's always gonna turn out that way. But we can have our head on a swivel, and we're not crazy for doing it. And people make you feel crazy. Even you said, I'm paranoid now. And it's like, no, you're not. You are just protecting yourself. Listen, and I don't want you to feel crazy.
- [82:59]
Harper
Totally. So I've struggled, and maybe you guys have some advice on this, but I had struggled whether to reach out to this woman. So I reached out to some mutual friends who I'm close with, who are also close with her, just to get a feel for what the situation was. Does she know who he is? Does she know his background? When did he get out of prison? Does anyone know? Turns out he was in prison for 10 years. So it was not three years.
- [83:31]
MacKenzie
Oh, 10 years. Wow. Good.
- [83:34]
Harper
I don't know how that means. I don't know why. And it does mean that. That it was not the lighter sentence. So maybe he needed more supervision or something. I don't know.
- [83:44]
Hannah
So if he was there for 10 years, you said this is, what, 12, 13 years later? And he's got a house now with this girl. So she. They've been together just about as long as he's been able to be free.
- [83:55]
Harper
Exactly right. I asked the friends whether anyone was aware of his background and they told me that essentially, yes, everyone knows, but that what they know is that he is schizophrenic, that he was on and off meds, the wrong meds, taking other drugs, et cetera. And that in his drug addled mind, with his mental illness, that he thought he was taking mercy on her. He thought of it as a mercy killing. And what's most unfortunate is that that is still how he talks about it.
- [84:30]
Hannah
So he's found a way to make himself feel better.
- [84:33]
Harper
He's found a way to deal with it or like, how to justify it. But it also means that in that justification, other people feel safe around him, which I hate, because that's not true.
- [84:45]
MacKenzie
Yeah, you want, you want to be like, be aware. Be aware.
- [84:47]
Harper
In no capacity was this a mercy. Even if you thought that she was struggling, you made a call that wasn't yours to make in the face of a family who cared very much about their child and in a medical facility that was caring for her. I mean, everything about this is not justifiable in any way, sense of the word. I don't care how, how you know, out of your mind, you feel in the moment. I don't care how many drugs you have taken. You don't snap like that unless you're capable of snapping like that forever. I'm sorry, that's my belief.
- [85:23]
MacKenzie
No, I agree too. I totally think that too.
- [85:26]
Hannah
I could definitely see him also using recovery as a way to alleviate his guilt and get people to trust him. If he's like, I wasn't on the right medication and now I am.
- [85:38]
MacKenzie
Now I am.
- [85:39]
Harper
That's exactly.
- [85:40]
Hannah
And that's not to say that I.
- [85:41]
Harper
Don'T like, he doesn't drink.
- [85:43]
Hannah
Of course I want people to heal and find what works for them, but you can't kill people.
- [85:49]
Harper
Here's the thing. I'm not. I don't have a problem with, you know, he served time, he's out, whatever. I just wanted to make sure. Also, grown women can make their own decisions as long as they are informed and they have all the facts.
- [86:05]
MacKenzie
Yeah.
- [86:06]
Harper
Yeah, that was what I was most concerned about. Does she know?
- [86:09]
Hannah
And it sounds like you did it.
- [86:11]
Harper
I made sure her friends all know. Not his story, but the full story, especially the story from the woman's brother. And from my perspective, just knowing what happened And I didn't feel comfortable or safe necessarily reaching out directly because what if I reached out and right away she goes, oh, I didn't know you knew. Harper turns to her live in boyfriend.
- [86:36]
MacKenzie
Yep.
- [86:37]
Hannah
And is like, I think, good call.
- [86:39]
Harper
You know, and then that triggers something else or puts her in danger or whatever it is. You know, it's not my relationship to insert myself in. As long as people know the facts, that's all I can do. I didn't reach out to her directly because I just, you know, I.
- [86:58]
MacKenzie
It must be so hard still, though it is.
- [87:01]
Harper
The friend. Well, I'm still thinking about it all the time. The friends we have said, she knows. She struggled with it. She hemmed and hawed and decided that she's okay with this, you know.
- [87:10]
MacKenzie
No, he convinced her that she's okay with it.
- [87:13]
Harper
That's how I think of it. And also, I hope her friends communicate to her how scared I was when I first saw that they were together. Because I called somebody I haven't talked to since middle school out of the blue and was like, hey, this sounds crazy and I don't even know if you liked me that much back then, but I have something to tell you.
- [87:32]
MacKenzie
You're gonna not like me now.
- [87:34]
Harper
Yeah. And I'm gonna seem like a crazy bitch. But this is the most fucked up a story.
- [87:39]
MacKenzie
But if anything happens to them and you don' Then you're the asshole. You know what I mean?
- [87:43]
Harper
Like, couldn't have lived with it if that's what happened. Yeah.
- [87:46]
MacKenzie
Then you'd be the jerk. That's not. And then you're stuck with me. That's not fair.
- [87:50]
Harper
Yeah.
- [87:51]
Hannah
I mean, I am always saying you got to look out for number one first. I don't think I would have reached out to her directly because I think you're so right. You do not know what's going to make him snap. He. He'll think you're trying to break them up.
- [88:04]
MacKenzie
Who knows why.
- [88:05]
Harper
Exactly. And if. If you're capable. This is like, I mean, yes, if you're capable of violence, you're capable of violence. If you're capable of snapping, there's anything can set that off. That's my problem with it. I wouldn't want to put myself or anyone that I know or love in a situation with someone who is capable of that in general. So that's all I wanted to make sure that was out there, you know? Am I still worried? Yeah, all the time. I check her posts all the time just to be like, are they okay? Okay. What's happening. She travels a lot, so I'm sort of. And he can't because he's a felon. So I just spit.
- [88:45]
Hannah
I just drew her face. And she said that was like, he's a villain.
- [88:49]
Harper
So I'm sort of just hoping that there's enough distance there that maybe she'll gain some perspective or maybe she'll hear from friends about what I said. I don't know. But it would be hard for me to approach it, so I just left it alone. Yeah.
- [89:09]
Hannah
Yeah. You deserve to kind of move past it. Yeah, you can.
- [89:13]
Harper
Yeah.
- [89:13]
Hannah
And, and I, I, I commend you, but I hope you. Well, it sounds like you have a fiance, because he's.
- [89:19]
Harper
Yeah.
- [89:20]
Hannah
So, so we love to hear that.
- [89:22]
Harper
So I, So one other thing that I, I wanted to mention that I'll, I'll say really, really helped with all of this was that I, I'm a big advocate for therapy. I went to therapy in college. I started about. Around the time that this happened, which not only got me out of my own toxic relationship and checking my own priorities and advocating for myself in a way that I really am proud of today, but I went to therapy also, like, with my mom, and we built our relationship around that and sort of worked out a lot of kinks, and she helped me with this situation and then, and then others ever since, and we've been really close, so I really had the best support system that a girl can hope for. I'm really lucky. And now I met my now fiance 11 years ago. We've been together, and we have been together and living together for 11 years. We were just really busy, so we didn't get engaged until now. So we worked together. We, like, we've done.
- [90:25]
Hannah
Yeah.
- [90:26]
Harper
You're doing your time. Yeah.
- [90:29]
Hannah
Congratulations. I'm so happy for you.
- [90:31]
Harper
So happy ending.
- [90:32]
Hannah
Oh, my God. I, I mean, I'm gonna be thinking about this for a while. What would you tell. Okay. No. What would you tell a girl in college right now?
- [90:42]
MacKenzie
That's a really good question.
- [90:43]
Hannah
Who. Not necessarily is dealing with exactly the scenario, but somebody that has to let someone down or just put themselves in those uncomfortable situations.
- [90:51]
Harper
I would say ask. Ask your friends or mentors for help. That was one thing that felt really uncomfortable in a relationship setting. I had been very private about my relationships until that point. I felt very guarded. I didn't want to talk to my parents about dating. I didn't want to talk about my boyfriends, and I didn't really share a lot of what was going on with me. With anybody. I was very secretive, very private about dating in general. So I think I held a lot of that alone for a long time. And it wasn't until the end, glass spilled over that I just had been like, I need help, you know, but there's such strength in being able to admit that early and say, you know, take a pool of your friends or, you know, your best advice givers and ask what. What have they said in similar situations? Or what's their perspective on, you know, give them. Give them all of your positives and negatives and let them help you make a decision. It's not always.
- [91:50]
MacKenzie
And it sounds like you're saying, talk about it. Like, say it out loud. Like, you have to talk.
- [91:55]
Hannah
Yeah. It can even be somebody that just listens. Like, they don't even have to give you anything. It's just hearing it out loud.
- [92:01]
Harper
Yeah.
- [92:02]
Hannah
Sometimes talking is something out.
- [92:04]
Harper
Yeah.
- [92:05]
MacKenzie
What. It's what it's going to take. It's just the talking.
- [92:07]
Harper
Talk it out. I would. I would also say if you ever feel nervous, anxious, you know, not typical butterflies, but if there's any amount of you that is thinking, I don't know, it's get. It's not it. That ain't it.
- [92:25]
MacKenzie
If it doesn't make sense, it isn't so, period.
- [92:28]
Harper
You should never have to question whether or not somebody likes you. That's absolutely.
- [92:34]
MacKenzie
That's a really good point. You should never have to question if they like you.
- [92:37]
Harper
If they like you. You will know.
- [92:40]
MacKenzie
If he wanted to, he would. Girl. If he wanted to, he would.
- [92:42]
Harper
If he wanted to, he would. That's it. Yep.
- [92:44]
Hannah
It's true.
- [92:45]
Harper
Not for a second have I ever wondered whether or not my fiance likes.
- [92:50]
Hannah
And you can't. You. You also just. Yeah. You're from tuition. I mean, like, it can be as simple as. I've been thinking about this a lot lately because I've been in some scenarios where the vibes are just off and I don't feel necessarily like anything is bad happening. I'm just like, maybe these aren't my people. Like, we're just on different wavelengths.
- [93:08]
MacKenzie
Vibes are fantastic.
- [93:10]
Hannah
Yeah. I was beating myself up, like, why? What's wrong with you? And then I was like, maybe nothing's wrong with me.
- [93:15]
MacKenzie
Yeah.
- [93:15]
Hannah
We're just not for each other and we just have to get cool with that.
- [93:19]
Harper
It's also as a. As somebody who was obviously a serial monogamist at that time and, you know, or for my whole life, actually, because I've been with the same guy for 11 years now, but. So I never really wasn't. But I. As somebody who dated constantly throughout my. From 15 on, which is psychotic, I would say get good at being alone. Like, it's really.
- [93:42]
MacKenzie
Be okay with it.
- [93:43]
Harper
So valuable to find yourself self, to find spending time with yourself fulfilling. It's really hard to do, and no one should have to figure out how to do that by yourself. Therapy is a great tool to learn how to do that and finding your hobbies or finding ways to fill your time, but in a way that you're spending time with yourself and getting to know yourself is really invaluable.
- [94:07]
MacKenzie
So I love that so much. Oh, that's such good advice.
- [94:12]
Hannah
I'm so happy you're okay.
- [94:13]
Harper
Yeah, me too. No, I'm just. I'm. I'm.
- [94:16]
MacKenzie
I wasn't ready.
- [94:17]
Harper
I'm so glad that there's an outlet in podcasts like yours that. That people. I'm hoping young people can get advice. I mean, like, I. There wasn't podcasts when I was that age, so I wasn't. What I feel like when I'm listening to you guys is like talking to your girlfriends. You feel like you're part of the conversation. You feel like you're learning something. You feel like that's what I want.
- [94:36]
Hannah
You know, I also want, like, mother. Like, we've had one. I remember a mom reached out and was like, there's conversations that I have with my daughter that if I brought it up, she'd be like, mom, stop. I don't want to talk about dating. And then we can talk about Harper's story, and we can talk about it through the lens of Harper, and she becomes.
- [94:55]
MacKenzie
She'll associate it with her own, like, parallels.
- [94:59]
Harper
Yeah.
- [94:59]
Hannah
I hope people have those conversations after hearing these. So. And it's because of you guys. Like, we are happy to set up the microphones and listen, but it's really the fact that you're brave enough to share. So thank you.
- [95:11]
MacKenzie
Thank you so much.
- [95:12]
Harper
I was listening to a lot of the stories on your podcast, thinking, like, this is a little different, but it's still a cautionary tale. I would like somebody to trust their gut that early on and not feel bad about maybe letting somebody down or making a call too soon in a relationship. You know, don't feel like you have to give everybody that chance, because don't.
- [95:33]
MacKenzie
Wait till someone dies to put up a red light.
- [95:36]
Harper
Exactly. Yeah. And you can do so long before that. If the second you feel like it's not for you, that's okay.
- [95:44]
MacKenzie
Yep.
- [95:45]
Hannah
Also, shout out to your friends, can I?
- [95:47]
MacKenzie
Oh, yeah.
- [95:48]
Hannah
You have good friends.
- [95:49]
Harper
Yeah, I do.
- [95:50]
Hannah
I love that they're like, we're leaving. We're leaving the bar now.
- [95:53]
Harper
We have to go right now. Yeah.
- [95:55]
Hannah
Everybody look out for each other.
- [96:08]
MacKenzie
That's a lot.
- [96:09]
Hannah
I love Harper.
- [96:11]
MacKenzie
I. I really do love her, and I just think that she is so brave. It's so courageous to tell that story, especially with, you know, where she is now with this guy. But can we talk about. I want to assure our audience that we know that mental illness is real. Hannah and I are not mental health care professionals. Mental medical professional, at all, whatsoever.
- [96:35]
Hannah
No. And we haven't spoken to this person's mental health team. And, like, we're just hearing the story.
- [96:41]
MacKenzie
Yeah. All we're doing is letting. Letting Harper tell her story, and we feel that is the most ethical thing to do is let her tell her story and just listen to what she's telling us. So what we know is what she's telling us. And we. We support mental health and we do take it very seriously.
- [96:58]
Hannah
And also, we. We, like, are going to say it super clearly. If you have schizophrenia, it doesn't mean that you are, like, this person. Like, the point of the story is that he killed someone, and so he is dangerous. And whether or not his mental illness is a factor in that is not really for us to determine. But this is the story, and he's dangerous. Like.
- [97:20]
MacKenzie
Yeah.
- [97:21]
Hannah
And he could hurt somebody. And it is a conversation we are interested in having with many of you based on your experience. Like, especially given that he now is making a life for himself. And Harper is living probably in constant fear, even though, you know, it's been okay for a while. Like, she's still always looking over her shoulder at this. I don't even know if we can call him an ex, because he, like, created a relationship in his mind that wasn't really there. But, you know, like, what do you. What do you guys think? It's a delicate topic, the mental illness side of it. We do want to talk about that, but there's also a lot of other stuff we can talk about with this, because, oh, my God, it's.
- [98:05]
MacKenzie
It's a whole lot. And also, I want to. Let's. Can we talk about how Harper, being as young as she is, trusted her femme tuition so hardcore. Like, it's. First of all, you could be 100 years old and still have this fem tuition and not trust it and just gonna be like, oh, I don't. I don't. Like it sounds Like, I know my gut is gnawing at me, but I have no proof of that. So it's not. I'm not gonna choose it or whatever, but to be that young and to choose to trust that, that's kind of good for her. Right?
- [98:38]
Hannah
Good for her. And that's what for all of our. The people and all the young people in our lives that we can help them get to that point. Because I think her. She's amazing. Her friends were validating. Her mom was very validating. The security at the school validated her experience. And that's important. And I think a lot of other guests who have come on our show have not had the same support system. So it's not that those people are not good because they didn't necessarily respond in the way that Harper did. I think the support system coupled with Harper getting to the point where she was like, it's a. It's a privilege to have that. And I hope also it's a reminder that we can be that for other people. Like, you might not be somebody who's experienced a dogfish yourself, but you don't know who is around you. You can be the person that validates them.
- [99:27]
MacKenzie
I was going to say that too. To our guests who have come on, and even to you guys, our audience, our listeners, you never know how the sense of community you're creating is that support for other people, which creates that confidence enough to trust that femtuition. So I think it. You just never know how being supportive in whatever way you are, you know, be. It's showing kindness and saying those supportive words and just. Or telling your story and letting other people know they're not alone. That sense of community creates the confidence that gives other people, you know, that other people, that the, the. It gives other people the confidence to trust their own penetration.
- [100:05]
Hannah
And sometimes all it takes is a conversation. She talked so much. I loved this conversation, as much as I hated that she went through it. About how her body knew before she did. Like her anxiety, her chest.
- [100:17]
MacKenzie
We've talked about it so much. Yeah, yeah.
- [100:19]
Hannah
There were things going on that were indicating to her that something was off. And it took time for her to actually hear that, which is so normal. But yeah, I love the idea that our. Like we're animals at the end of the day and we've evolved to get away, to be aware of when we're in. Under threat. So sometimes our brain's not there, but our body is reacting as if we're under threat. And we have to listen to that which is especially hard to do when you are a woman who's told to be polite and not hurt anybody's feelings and not make anybody feel comfortable.
- [100:51]
MacKenzie
Oh, gosh.
- [100:52]
Hannah
But that was so hard to hear. Just her being like. I didn't want to make him feel bad.
- [100:55]
MacKenzie
The part that was hard for me was the fact that homeboy comes from a bazillionaire daddy who knows all the judges, who funds all the things, and basically, let's just. Let's call a spade a spade. He got away with murder. Sorry.
- [101:08]
Hannah
I know, I know. I, like, wish I knew more about the details of what happened on that case. And obviously, she tried to get answers, too.
- [101:15]
MacKenzie
Yeah, that's awful. I don't know. I don't know. I. I'm. I don't know.
- [101:22]
Hannah
And also, I mean, not necessarily. Just.
- [101:25]
Harper
Just.
- [101:25]
Hannah
Well, actually, Ted Bundy is a good example of this. Like, I literally wrote down in my notes, hotties can get away with too much because he was very attractive, and at first people were like, well, cool. Like, he's got a crush on you. Like, that's fun. And it's like, he's hot.
- [101:41]
MacKenzie
Let him stop you.
- [101:43]
Hannah
Yeah, exactly. And it's. I wonder if he could have gotten as far not having that 64 tall, dark, and handsome and billionaire dad. I'm gonna guess not.
- [101:55]
MacKenzie
No, I. I don't. I don't buy it.
- [101:58]
Hannah
He stabbed her. Like we need to sit with that again. This is so devastating. We've had. Yeah. I mean, I'm so sorry to her whole family, and I'm sorry to Harper, and I hope that his people are safe now. And I don't know. And I.
- [102:18]
MacKenzie
But, Harper, you are brave as hell, and I am so proud of you. Thank you for Shar. And I just can't. I can't even imagine. I.
- [102:25]
Hannah
Be weird. Be rude. Stay alive.
- [102:27]
MacKenzie
Be weird. Be rude. Stay alive. Yes. Thank you, crime Junkie podcast. Ashley Flowers for that quote. Be weird, be rude, stay alive. Everybody's so worried about, oh, I didn't want to offend anybody. And it's like, that's going into a trunk. Let's stop.
- [102:41]
Hannah
The part where he was like, how conceited of you to think I'm interested. That is so annoying. But also dangerous because it really prevents people from speaking up and saying they're uncomfortable or they're not interested. Interested. And if you have ever been in a position where you look back and you're like, oh, I should have just been honest and rejected them. Why did I give them my number? Why did I X, Y, Z. I've been there. We've. We've been there. And it's because of the way we've been raised. And we can practice with each other. Saying no. No is a complete sentence. I don't want to be here. I'm not interested. And there are ways to practice saying it like that. Aren't. I was just talking about this with people that went to the self defense class. I think I talked about it already where we were like, you don't want to say something that's going to agitate them. And we were saying using I statements can be good. Like, I'm going to remove myself from the situation rather than like, you need to get away from me.
- [103:39]
MacKenzie
Yes.
- [103:39]
Hannah
I don't know. I'm curious if people have other ways.
- [103:42]
MacKenzie
Of rejecting people taking ownership of it, too. But also, I want to hear all.
- [103:47]
Hannah
The ways to reject people.
- [103:48]
MacKenzie
If you go to get a drink and you have to tell somebody no 19 times, that's a red flag. Like, just FYI.
- [103:54]
Hannah
Yeah, yeah, y' all. I hate to say it, but imagine if she had taken the drink. Like, I think he would have drugged her for sure or something. Like.
- [104:03]
MacKenzie
And, well, you're basically, you're setting an example of what you're gonna like, what you're gonna accept. And, you know, like, I said no, I meant no. Good for her. Harper's legit.
- [104:13]
Hannah
I know a lot. And also, if you ever are, like, I've been. Nightcap is a brand that sells scrunchies that you put over your drink.
- [104:22]
MacKenzie
Oh, yeah, those are cool.
- [104:23]
Hannah
They're cool. Overdrive is a brand that makes testing strips for drinks. And both of them have sent products for the self defense workshop. I bring them up because sometimes I literally. When I got the Overdrive strips and was going to give them to people, I was like, am I being overdramatic? Like, are people actually going to test their drinks in bars? Like, no, we're not. Like, test. Don't feel overdramatic. This is what could happen.
- [104:48]
MacKenzie
Yeah.
- [104:49]
Hannah
If you don't be dramatic.
- [104:50]
MacKenzie
Exactly, Exactly. I just feel like, be dramatic. I mean, listen, be dramatic. Just.
- [104:57]
Hannah
We're dramatic. We're doing great.
- [105:01]
MacKenzie
I ain't get. And then if you do get fooled, it's not because you didn't try. Like, it's not for lack of trying. You know, there's like, if you pull one over on me, you really had to make an effort to do. You know what I mean? Like, I just don't trust anybody in.
- [105:15]
Hannah
That head on a swivel. But hey, she doesn't trust as easily and has a fiance and is doing really well and I'm really happy for her. Both things can be true. You can protect yourself and still find happiness.
- [105:28]
MacKenzie
On the Patreon. We do lots and lots of updates, so don't forget to join the Patreon. There's a five dollar option and then there's a nine dollar tier which is ad free. Listening and thank you to all of our patreoners. Thank you to everybody, everybody, just for listening. We just. We appreciate you so much. We'll put the link to the Patreon in the show notes and keep sending us your stories.
- [105:52]
Hannah
Trust your femme tuition. I know we're gonna say it again at the end, but like, seriously, this was such a good story in terms of reminding you to do that.
- [106:00]
MacKenzie
But also like our. That's our like catchphrase for the show Race. Like trust your femtuition. But how many times are people gonna be listening? And how many times are people gonna be like, oh, I know what they're gonna say. Trust your fem tuition. And they're going to be in a situation where they're going to be like something is wrong. And they're going to hear us saying trust your femtuition. And they're going to be like, maybe there's something to that.
- [106:18]
Hannah
You know, same way that dogfish tear you down by telling you lies and beating up your self esteem. And repetition works.
- [106:26]
MacKenzie
Repetition. You're going to do it in the reverse. You're going to be like, the dating detectives are so annoying. And this trusted femtuition. And then you're going to be like, oh wait. Trust your femme tuition. Oh, I need to trust that. And then you're going to find out that it's. You're glad you did.
- [106:40]
Hannah
Oh my God, I am. I can't, I can't. I need to like take a lap after this one. I'm glad she's okay.
- [106:47]
MacKenzie
Harper, we love you. Thank you for having the courage and being brave enough to share your story. Thank you. Thank you.
- [106:53]
Hannah
We love you guys. Oh, did we say the email already?
- [106:55]
MacKenzie
Oh yeah, you can send us your stories. And our email address is investigatedating Detectives podcast.
- [107:05]
Hannah
Send us anything, even if it's short. We'd love to hear it.
- [107:08]
MacKenzie
Yeah, we definitely would. We love you guys. And as always, trust your friend tuition.
- [107:29]
Harper
Sam.