The Funeral Freeloader

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Dating Detectives – Episode: The Funeral Freeloader

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Dating Detectives
• Host/Author: Dear Media
• Description: Join professional Private Investigator Mackenzie Fultz and Comedian Hanna Anderson each week as they delve deep into the stories of the liars, cheaters, and con-men who have left a trail of broken hearts and shattered trust in the dating world. We'll uncover the lies, scams, and manipulations of these con artists, shining a light on the red flags to watch for in the wild west of dating apps.
• Episode: The Funeral Freeloader
• Release Date: January 20, 2025

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1. Introduction

The episode begins with a stern disclaimer about the anonymity and fictionalization of names and events for safety and legal reasons. The hosts, Mackenzie (Host 1) and Hanna (Host 2), welcome listeners warmly before transitioning into Liv’s harrowing story.

Notable Quotes:

• Hanna: "Every story always has an impact, at least on one person. And so why I like that community also." [00:44]
• Mackenzie: "You think you're gonna get used to this stuff and you really do not." [01:02]

2. Liv’s Background

Liv enters the conversation as the primary guest, sharing her tumultuous past. At 25, she was working part-time in administration at a college and had received a substantial trust fund following her father’s tragic homicide in 2010.

Notable Quotes:

• Liv: "At 25, I was in school doing part-time administration work at a college. And I had received a large trust fund from my late father's passing, as he unfortunately died in 2010 of homicide." [03:27]

3. Relationship with Andrew

Liv had a five-year on-and-off relationship with Andrew, who became the father of her daughter. Their relationship struggled due to Andrew’s addiction issues. Tragically, Andrew was murdered in 2017, leaving Liv grappling with grief and guilt.

Notable Quotes:

• Liv: "I had been in an in-and-off relationship for about five years with a man named Andrew, and he did end up becoming the father of our daughter." [03:27]
• Liv: "Andrew was murdered in 2017." [04:28]
• Hanna and Mackenzie: Express deep sympathy, repeatedly saying, "Oh my God." [04:37-04:56]

4. Meeting Caleb and Initial Relationship

Three weeks after Andrew’s funeral, Liv discovers $24,000 hidden in Andrew’s shoes, interpreting it as a sign to start anew. In the midst of her grief, she meets Caleb through social media—a friend of Andrew's—who offers her comfort and support, eventually evolving their relationship from friendship to romance.

Notable Quotes:

• Liv: "I found $24,000 in cash inside Andrew’s work boots." [09:00]
• Caleb’s Gesture: "He bought the biggest teddy bears I had ever seen." [21:44]
• Hanna: "Don't ask no questions. Don't ask no questions." [09:35]

5. Development of Relationship with Caleb

Liv and Caleb’s relationship deepens over the next seven months. Caleb appears committed, assisting Liv financially and emotionally, especially during Christmas and the birth of Liv's son. However, red flags begin to emerge as Caleb's behavior becomes inconsistent and secretive.

Notable Quotes:

• Liv: "Caleb became like a form of comfort for me and my daughter." [17:13]
• Hanna: "Tell nobody. Don't ask no questions." [09:35]

6. Discovery of Caleb’s Infidelity

Liv starts suspecting Caleb’s fidelity when she notices identical gifts sent to multiple women. Her investigation reveals that Caleb was simultaneously involved with several other women, including one named Grace. Caleb admits to not being in a committed relationship, thereby justifying his actions.

Notable Quotes:

• Liv: "I discovered that there were three other girls that had received the same gifts he gave me." [27:24]
• Mackenzie: "He bought it in bulk. He went to Costco." [15:32]
• Liv: "He admitted, 'I was seeing three other girls on and off.'" [28:00]

7. The Emergence of Abuse and Financial Manipulation

As Liv and Caleb plan their wedding, Caleb’s true colors emerge. He begins financially abusing Liv by controlling access to funds, making unreasonable financial demands, and neglecting his responsibilities as a father. Their relationship becomes increasingly toxic, culminating in physical abuse during an argument over finances.

Notable Quotes:

• Liv: "He controlled access to the $20,000 her grandfather withheld." [63:34]
• Liv: "Two weeks after our wedding, he grabbed me by the back of my head and had actually thrusted me for and smashed my face off the dashboard." [61:20]
• Mackenzie: "That's disgusting." [61:23]

8. Breaking Free

Faced with ongoing abuse and manipulation, Liv decides to end her relationship with Caleb. Despite fearing judgment from her Italian family and the complexities of co-parenting, she seeks legal recourse to reclaim custody of her son and protect her financial assets.

Notable Quotes:

• Liv: "I knew deep down that it was a bad decision, and I just couldn't go through with it." [29:47]
• Hanna: "You're not stupid. It's never your fault." [105:57]

9. Aftermath and Reflection

Liv navigates the aftermath of leaving Caleb, dealing with financial loss, emotional trauma, and the challenges of co-parenting. Caleb's continued deceit and new relationships exacerbate her struggles. Liv emphasizes the importance of building a financial safety net, a concept echoed by the hosts.

Notable Quotes:

• Liv: "I did end up moving out with the kids." [83:35]
• Host 1: "It's called a fuck off fund. Shout out to her first 100k." [108:29]
• Liv: "I am embracing it. I love being in the single era." [98:35]

10. Hosts’ Discussion on Red Flags and Support

After Liv shares her story, Mackenzie and Hanna discuss the critical red flags evidenced throughout Liv’s relationship with Caleb. They emphasize the importance of trusting one’s intuition, building financial independence (e.g., a "fuck off fund"), and providing non-judgmental support to those in abusive relationships.

Notable Quotes:

• Hanna: "It’s not called Delulu. It’s called due diligence." [26:53]
• Mackenzie: "When someone dog fishes you, it's never your fault." [105:00]
• Hanna: "Just say, 'I'm here for you,' and be consistent." [105:21]

11. Conclusion

The episode concludes with Liv expressing gratitude for sharing her story, hoping it serves as a cautionary tale for others. The hosts reiterate the importance of recognizing red flags and supporting individuals in vulnerable situations without judgment. They encourage listeners to share their own stories and continue building a supportive community.

Notable Quotes:

• Liv: "If I'm able to help even just one person, it means the world to me." [101:19]
• Hanna: "Trust your intuition." [112:01]
• Host 1: "You should never feel like you're to blame for being abused." [General Theme]

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Key Takeaways

1. Recognizing Red Flags: Liv’s story underscores the importance of identifying and acting upon red flags early in relationships, including financial manipulation, inconsistency, and controlling behavior.

2. Financial Independence: The episode highlights the necessity of maintaining financial independence and having a "fuck off fund" to protect oneself from financial abuse.

3. Emotional Support: Hosts emphasize the significance of providing non-judgmental, consistent support to individuals in abusive relationships, fostering a safe environment for them to seek help.

4. Trusting Intuition: Liv’s eventual realization and decision to leave an abusive relationship illustrate the power of trusting one’s instincts when something feels wrong.

5. Healing and Moving Forward: Despite the trauma, Liv’s journey reflects resilience and the process of healing, focusing on her children and personal growth.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Hanna (00:44): "I'm always excited to bring you another story because of how they always have an impact."

• Mackenzie (01:02): "You think you're gonna get used to this stuff and you really do not."

• Liv (03:27): "I had received a large trust fund from my late father's passing, as he unfortunately died in 2010 of homicide."

• Liv (09:00): "I found $24,000 in cash."

• Hanna (09:35): "Don't ask no questions. Don't ask no questions."

• Liv (17:13): "Caleb became like a form of comfort for me and my daughter."

• Liv (27:24): "There were three other girls that had received the same gifts he gave me."

• Liv (61:20): "He grabbed me by the back of my head and had actually thrusted me for and smashed my face off the dashboard."

• Mackenzie (61:23): "That's disgusting."

• Liv (63:34): "He controlled access to the $20,000 her grandfather withheld."

• Hanna (105:57): "You're not stupid. It's never your fault."

• Liv (98:35): "I am embracing it. I love being in the single era."

• Hanna (112:01): "Trust your intuition."

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Final Thoughts

"The Funeral Freeloader" is a heart-wrenching episode that vividly portrays the journey of a woman navigating love, grief, and betrayal. Liv's courage in sharing her story provides invaluable insights into recognizing manipulative behaviors and the importance of support systems. The hosts adeptly guide the conversation to educate listeners on safeguarding their emotional and financial well-being in the complex landscape of modern dating.

For those who haven't listened, this episode serves as a powerful reminder to remain vigilant, trust one's instincts, and seek supportive communities when faced with challenging relationship dynamics.

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Disclaimer: This summary is based on the provided transcript and represents the core narrative and discussions of the episode. For the full experience and detailed insights, listening to the actual podcast episode is recommended.

Transcript

[Host 1]

The following program contains names, places and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following program is provided for entertainment purposes only, and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances. If you or a loved one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic violence hotline at 1-800-799-7233 for support.

[Host 2]

Happy Monday, Sleuthies.

[Host 1]

Hi, Sleuthies. How's everybody doing?

[Host 2]

We hope you're doing great. I'm excited for. Well, I always say I'm excited and then I feel like for saying that because it's never like, exciting to talk about these stories, but I'm always excited to bring you another story because of how they always. I don't know. So everybody's story always has an impact, at least on one person. And so why I like that community also.

[Host 1]

You think you're gonna get used to this stuff and you really do not. I mean, this story has a lot of twists and turns and I was shocked. Liv is our guest today. It's a one parter. We're gonna.

[Host 2]

You're welcome it all in at one.

[Host 1]

Time, but, oh, she's been through so much.

[Host 2]

Yeah, you guys are gonna love Olivia. There's a lot of warnings we want to give you. There's murder, death, drugs, financial and physical abuse. There's children involved and custody stuff. Yeah. Custody battle. And, you know, it's part of the story, so we don't want to cut it out. But we also try to, like, warn you guys a little bit.

[Host 1]

Yeah. Just prepare.

[Host 2]

Little uncomfy in those areas.

[Host 1]

She's just been through a lot. We'll pass it on to Liv, but really quickly. Book club, our Patreon Book club is going to meet on January 26.

[Host 2]

The book was so good. I cannot wait.

[Host 1]

Oh, it's like, we read it in like a day. It's called Little Little Secrets by Jennifer Hillier. And most of you who have already read it are like, couldn't put it down. So, like, warning, don't start reading it at a night where you have to wake up early the next day because you will stay up all night.

[Host 2]

Yeah. And you'll be like, wait, what? No. And you'll just keep reading it. So that one, I'm really excited to talk about that one. There's a lot. There's some. There's some dog fishing in that one. There's Some. It kind of took me on a ride. I was like, wait, there's some things that I didn't expect. So I think it's going to be. It's a really good read. So. And then we'll come together for that on the 26th, which is next week.

[Host 1]

Yes, I believe it is.

[Host 2]

So you've got time this coming weekend. You got time. You'll read it fast.

[Host 1]

But those are my announcements.

[Liv]

Oh, yeah.

[Host 2]

And you guys, don't. Speaking of the Patreon Book Club, don't forget to join the patreon. It's only $5 a month and you get two bonus episodes of the Dating Detectives. And it's just a great. It's a great community and we do lives and just try to connect and you kind of have early access her merch and stuff like that. So please join us on the Patreon. The. It's in the link is in the show notes.

[Host 1]

Shall we get to the story?

[Host 2]

Let's do it. Olivia, take us away. Tell us your story. We're excited to hear.

[Host 1]

Thanks for being here.

[Host 2]

Well, I don't know if excited is the right. Just tell us your story.

[Liv]

Well, thank you very much for having me. Of course.

[Host 1]

Thank you.

[Liv]

Okay, so at 25, I was in school doing part time administration work at a college. And I had received a large trust fund from my late father's passing, as he unfortunately died in 2010 of homicide.

[Host 2]

Oh, I'm so sorry.

[Host 1]

Oh, my.

[Host 2]

That's terrible.

[Host 1]

Oh, my God.

[Liv]

Yes. Yeah. I had been in, like, an in and off relationship for about five years with a man named Andrew, and he did end up becoming the father of our daughter. We both loved each other very much, but unfortunately, it was a very complicated relationship because he struggled with addiction.

[Host 2]

Mm, that's hard. That's hard enough. Like, just on its own. That's hard.

[Liv]

Totally. And then add a child into the equation, it was just so much more difficult to deal with. So, sadly, Andrew was murdered in 2017.

[Host 2]

Oh, my God. I'm so sorry.

[Liv]

What? Yes, thank you. I know. Two murders, one lifetime. It is crazy.

[Host 2]

Murdered like, oh, my God, like, with, like in the commission of another crime or just like.

[Liv]

Yes.

[Host 2]

Oh, my God. I'm so sorry.

[Host 1]

Wait, I'm so. There's like, I'm. I just said oh, my God, like 1200 times because.

[Liv]

Yeah, it was definitely very shocking. It was just devastating.

[Host 1]

How old was your child?

[Liv]

She was little, luckily, so she wasn't able to really grasp necessarily what was happening. And the fact that her. Her dad had passed so I'm grateful that she was small enough, but at the same time, you lose all those memories. So I have to always communicate and share certain things with her so we're able to kind of keep his legacy.

[Host 2]

Alive so she can kind of know him.

[Liv]

Yeah, yeah. Like, he's a topic in our house every day.

[Host 2]

That must be so hard.

[Liv]

Oh, yeah, definitely. Like I tell people all the time, dealing with death is one thing, but having to deal with death and trying to explain it to a child and then especially when it's involving a parent that they. Yeah, it's one of the most excruciating pains you will ever experience because you just want to take it away from them, but you can't. Right. So, yeah, after Andrew's passing, I was the last person who had seen him before his death. And I really struggled with the guilt afterwards of believing that if I had done something differently or if I had let him stay longer at my home, then perhaps he wouldn't have gone to the store where he was murdered. So it was very, very hard for me to kind of cope with the five stages of grief. And then on top of it, feeling like I had some responsibility in it.

[Host 1]

And responsibility to your daughter like you have, that is unimaginable, for sure.

[Liv]

And, yeah, after Andrew's tragic death, I was given a large sump of money again. So that was helpful in many ways, obviously with a little one and having to assist with moving and preparing ourselves for the next stages of our life. So, yes, after he passed away, I had received a lump sum of money for myself and for my daughter. And with that money, I decided to relocate to Andrew's home, as obviously we were very devastated, and it was very comforting being able to be in his place. There was a lot of memories, despite the complications in the relationship, and a lot of positive memories in the home. So it was definitely comforting in a sense. And we were kind of able to get a fresh start because so many people were asking questions. And, you know, it was the same town we lived in, so I just wanted to kind of start now.

[Host 1]

So you moved to his. He lived in a different town?

[Liv]

He did, yes.

[Host 1]

Okay. And was your family nearby or his family, or were you.

[Liv]

So his family was nearby. I'm still very close to them today, luckily. So it was really nice to have their support, but I didn't have much of my family support as we're kind of dispersed all over. So that part was kind of. Was kind of hard not having constant support every single day. But as I mentioned, like, Being back into the house was comforting for myself and for my daughter. So I had been aware that Andrew was sometimes involved with kind of shady business, and a few things had been mentioned to me after his passing. So I had decided to look around the home to see if I could find anything. So after a few hours of searching the home, I ended up in our closet. And while I was looking on the floor, I noticed a pair of shoes. So I picked them up, and they felt, like, quite heavy. And so I instantly became suspicious, and I lifted up the insole of his shoe, and I ended up finding $24,000.

[Host 2]

Like, in cash?

[Liv]

Yeah, in cats.

[Host 1]

What kind of shoes were these?

[Liv]

They were actually like. Like shoe work boots.

[Host 1]

Oh, my. I'm imagining, like, platform stilettos. That's all I can think that would be able to fit.

[Host 2]

Yes.

[Liv]

Wow. I was very, very shocked. I definitely wondered, like, where it had came from, but at the same time, I was so grateful. I knew what a difference it would make in my life and our daughter's life. So I was. I was very, very, very happy.

[Host 2]

Yeah, like, I want to know where this came from, but also, like, don't ask no questions. Don't ask no questions.

[Host 1]

I know, right? I know.

[Host 2]

Tell nobody. Don't ask no questions. Let's just nobody know.

[Liv]

I actually didn't tell anybody. I didn't share it with his family, his friends, even my family. I really took it as a sign that I was supposed to find it and that he would want my daughter and myself to have it.

[Host 2]

It's for the baby.

[Liv]

The less I knew, the better it was. Yeah. I just try to, like, think that it was something positive.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Liv]

Maybe he was saving it up from work. I'm not sure.

[Host 1]

But it was your birthday present.

[Liv]

Yeah, a little. A little present after he passed, so that was kind of nice, and it made a big difference and in our lives.

[Host 2]

How long after he passed? Did you find that?

[Liv]

I want to say, like, three weeks.

[Host 2]

Okay. Okay. So pretty soon. Okay.

[Liv]

Yeah. It was three weeks after his funeral. Yeah.

[Host 2]

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[Liv]

After his his passing, obvious people had reached out about the loss of Andrew. And one person in particular was Caleb. I didn't really know who Caleb was too well before the funeral I just knew that he was a friend of Andrew's. On social media I saw like him commenting and liking some of our photos and I assumed he was a childhood friend. So Caleb would often check in with me and my daughter. He was very kind and shared stories about Andrew and their teenage age years and we definitely became friends very quickly. Those conversations really helped me with my loss and my grief because I just began to confide in him more and more.

[Host 2]

And you had someone that, that got.

[Host 1]

It, that understood it?

[Liv]

Yeah, totally. And he had experienced loss as well in his life so I really felt like, heard, understood and because he wasn't so close to my circle, I Didn't feel any judgment because, of course, like, when you're around your ex. Partner or partner's family, and you're like, I miss him so much, and I love him. And people are like, that was my son, or, that's my brother. Like, your grief is underneath us.

[Host 2]

Yep.

[Liv]

It was very hard. And because we had complications in the relationship as well, I did get a little bit of judgment from family members. So it was nice having, like, a clean slate with somebody.

[Host 2]

I know what you're talking about, though, when, like, you're like, how. How can I sh. Grief when his. When I'm talking to his mom or his whatever. Like, you know, and then it's like, who. Who grieves him more? So I can see how that would be hard and why talking and the complication of an.

[Host 1]

Of a relationship that's not as clearly defined.

[Host 2]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Host 1]

You know, you can't just be like, that was my son. You're like, that was the father of my child. And I used to love them, but I still love that. You know what I mean? It just complicates it. That's tough.

[Liv]

Totally. So, like, yeah. After we had started to form a friendship with each other, and I would confide in him, he would show acts of kindness. He would send flowers or chocolates. He would buy small gifts for myself and for my daughter, and he would buy, like, the biggest teddy bears I had ever seen. They were bigger than my little one at the time. And I just thought, wow, like, here's this person who's being extremely thoughtful, very generous, and, you know, was just reminding us that we have, like, a great support team behind us. So I didn't really think too much of it at the time. However, a little bit into our friendship, I had discovered through one of Andrew's mutual friends, that Caleb and Andrew were actually arch enemies with each other growing up.

[Host 2]

What? No way.

[Host 1]

Like, when growing up, like, kindergarten or high school?

[Liv]

No. Like, all throughout their teenage years, like, into their early 20s.

[Host 1]

And he had not. Caleb had not mentioned this?

[Liv]

Never. No, that.

[Host 2]

I think that would be something worth mentioning.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Liv]

Yeah, definitely.

[Host 1]

I can tell that this podcast is having an effect on me because at the beginning of this, I was always like, oh, he's getting teddy bears. He's getting stuff. And I just. My reaction to that just now was like, no way. Nope.

[Liv]

Too much.

[Host 2]

Nope. I don't like it.

[Liv]

Apparently, it was so bad that they had even gotten into, like, several fistfights with each other.

[Host 2]

Okay, so they're not friends. So what gives? So what Happens then.

[Liv]

Right. So I had brought it up to him, and he had said that their relationship was obviously throughout their teenage years and early 20s, that, you know, it was complicated, but their issues had been resolved for at least a few years. And that's why he attended his funeral. That's why they are friends on Facebook. So I thought, okay, fair enough. Like, when I look at my past, I've definitely had certain altercations with people, not physically, but verbally. And so I thought, you know what? Benefit the past, be the past and move forward.

[Host 1]

Yeah. And you had a complicated relationship with him, so in a way, I could see you relating to him.

[Liv]

Yeah, I did. I did, for sure. And so after, maybe, I want to say, from the time that he passed up until the time that I began being friends with Caleb. It had been quite a few months since Andrew's passing, but it eventually turned romantic between myself and Caleb.

[Host 2]

Mm.

[Host 1]

That's common.

[Liv]

So Caleb became like a form of comfort for me and my daughter. But at the same time, while I'm starting to experience these new emotions of being excited when he calls or being excited to see. Yeah. Like, I was all of a sudden just flooded with the feeling of guilt and judgment and concern.

[Host 2]

How long had it been since he passed that you started the relationship?

[Liv]

With Caleb, it had been about seven months.

[Host 2]

Okay, so that's a. You're at that time, you're like, you know, you. You want that love still. You're still human.

[Liv]

Yeah, no, I know. But his family and his close friends, they definitely didn't see it as that. She had always spoken so highly of me, despite our complicated relationship, and I truly believe that he thought that we were going to be together for the rest of our lives. So I felt like I was held to the standard with everybody, and even though I did love him and I did care about him so much and his passing was so tragic, it devastated me and took a piece of my heart I will never get back. I still was very realistic about the issues that we had in our relationship and how I had felt that, you know, the potential of finding somebody new was. Was a very real thing for me. And I knew it was going to happen. I just didn't expect it to happen kind of so soon.

[Host 2]

Right. And you never know when that's gonna happen. Like, you know what I mean?

[Liv]

No, not at all.

[Host 2]

How could you ever know that?

[Liv]

Right. And I feel like our interactions, Caleb and myself, were very genuine. I. I didn't feel like I was doing anything wrong. Like I had mentioned, there was quite A lot of people reaching out to me to give their condolences in males and females. So I didn't really suspect, you know, that I was going to start feeling romantic emotions for them.

[Host 1]

Yeah. I think it's normal to bond in grief. Yeah. They say.

[Liv]

Yeah. And Andrew's family had also counted on me for, you know, support. And obviously my child was a huge part of, kind of coping with their.

[Host 2]

Grief because that's a part of their boy. Yeah.

[Liv]

And his only child. Right. So that was difficult. So I. I decided that I was going to have to keep it very quiet. Obviously, I didn't know exactly where things were going to lead to, but I just knew that you didn't want to hurt them. No, no, I didn't want to hurt them at all. So keeping it quiet and being more reserved about everything. So we fast forward a few weeks, and I had gotten Caleb some Christmas gifts because Christmas was approaching and he was very, very, very excited. And so before Christmas had come, he had mentioned to me on like, several different occasions how badly he had wanted this gold cross pendant. And I thought, you know, we're so new into our relationship. Like, he's been so wonderful to my daughter and to myself. Like, why not splurge and purchase this expensive piece of jewelry for him? So I think he was kind of anticipating that I was going to get him for Christmas. So when I told him Christmas Day, like, hey, I got a few gifts for you. I really want to exchange presents, he was so overly excited. He had actually showed up at my door on Christmas night, and he had left his family's party to exchange gifts with me quickly.

[Host 2]

Oh, I love gifts. I love presents.

[Host 1]

Yeah. Did you feel like that was really cute or did you clock it as, like, you're really excited?

[Liv]

I was really excited. I thought, wow, like, this is just showing his commitment to me.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

He wanted to be with you.

[Liv]

Yeah. Like, I can only imagine his family like, wait, where are you going? Like, what do you mean you're heading over there? So it definitely showed me that he wanted to be a part of it. And I was happy because it was my first Christmas without Andrew. His family didn't want to celebrate Christmas, so it was kind of like a dim and dark kind of day for me. So it definitely brightened it up quite a bit.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Liv]

And it was actually an hour and a half drive for him to come and see me in Montreal. So that was another part to it. It wasn't like a quick, you know, 15 minutes. So he had actually gotten me, like, a toaster. And a T shirt from his motorcycle club since he was.

[Host 2]

Oh, that's cute.

[Liv]

Yeah. And, like, teddy bears and flowers and chocolates, and I just felt just so much happiness. Just so much happiness. It was nice after grieving for so long to just have something to look and to know that I was thought of so much for him to go and pick up all these things like a toaster.

[Host 1]

I mean, but sometimes that's like the best present.

[Host 2]

Was he. Was that something that you mentioned you needed? And he was just like, oh, I got this. Or did he?

[Liv]

No, to be honest, he had stayed over for one night when I didn't have my daughter, and he was like, oh, I tried making breakfast, but you have the worst toaster I've ever. Oh, that's so cute. So he's like, here's a new toaster that's available. So he got me a new toaster, so I definitely appreciated it. And then he, like, quickly left. He was like, I gotta go back to my family's Christmas. I'll see you later. Wow. I was like, okay. Like, high. Bye.

[Host 1]

Oh, I thought he was gonna spend the night.

[Liv]

No, it was maybe like 20 minutes. And that was it. He was out the door.

[Host 2]

And it take. It takes hours to get there. Like an hour.

[Liv]

Yeah, it was like an hour and a half drive. I. I understood because I come from a big Italian family, and I could.

[Host 2]

Only imagine, like those families are. They're like, you gotta be together.

[Liv]

Yeah. So I was like, you know what? You need to go celebrate with your family. They have no idea what's going on. Like, we were both keeping it quiet. So I understood. I didn't think it was such a big deal. So New Year's comes obviously after Christmas, and he had told me that he was unable to celebrate New Year's with me because his motorcycle club was throwing a very large party at the clubhouse and obviously I couldn't attend with my child being so small.

[Host 2]

Right.

[Liv]

And he was like, you know what? I'm gonna call you at midnight. Made all these promises, made me feel super comfortable. And I didn't hear from him at 12 o'clock.

[Host 2]

No. Really?

[Host 1]

That's not so good.

[Host 2]

I don't like it.

[Liv]

I was definitely disappointed. I had all these thoughts going through my mind because again, like, I'm just starting to see him. I don't, you know, know the ins and outs of who he is or how he acts when he's being social. So I was definitely a little bit concerned. But then I was trying to be realistic and think to Myself, like, okay, he's probably drank too much or he's having such a great time, like, maybe the service isn't working. I made every excuse in the book. I'm trying to not be mad at him.

[Host 1]

After what you've been through, I'd be worried about, you know, is he okay?

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Liv]

Well, that's another aspect, is that I did have a lot of anxiety with many things, and so I just knew he would be smart enough not to drink and drive. But he did end up messaging me the next day saying that he drank so much and he just wasn't able to call her. Message.

[Host 2]

Okay, that's.

[Liv]

Yeah, attractive.

[Host 2]

I don't like it. I don't like it.

[Liv]

No, no. I definitely had a feeling in the pit of my stomach that it wasn't good. And the following days, he was short with me. It went from, like, talking all day long, whether it be phone calls or text messages, to suddenly it was like, one or two messages or one or two phone calls. So I knew something was going on.

[Host 2]

Okay. So gut instinct in that moment, what is going on?

[Liv]

I had really thought that he had hooked up with somebody, possibly on New Year's. Like, that was my first thought.

[Host 2]

Okay.

[Host 1]

Yeah. And he was, like, feeling guilty and pushing you away kind of thing.

[Liv]

Yeah. But then, like, all the effort he was making and all the things that he was. There's no way, like, he knows what I've been through. Like.

[Host 2]

Right.

[Liv]

I'm just being silly. Like, you know, sometimes throat relationships, you get a little toxic yourself. So I'm like, maybe I'm overreacting, but always trust your gut instinct. So after New Year's, I began to look on Instagram to see if I could find any posts from Caleb on New Year's.

[Host 1]

That's our type of girl.

[Liv]

I know. I did a deep dive.

[Host 2]

I like it.

[Liv]

Yeah. So I had been looking around on Instagram trying to find some things, and I had found, like, a few photos of him celebrating New Year's, but nothing that was concerning or out of the norm. And eventually I end up finding a photo of a girl's post, and on the back of her bedroom wall was framed photos of her and Caleb.

[Host 2]

Oh, no. He got a girlfriend.

[Liv]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

Who is this girl?

[Liv]

Well, I didn't know at the time. I had recognized her from, like, obviously his social media, but I didn't know necessarily who she was or her relations to him. I just knew she had a picture of my boyfriend, several pictures hanging on her bedroom wall.

[Host 1]

That better be her brother.

[Liv]

Right? So. So I Began looking through comments on his pictures and really, like, checking every. Like I did. I went. I went a little Delulu. Well, I would have to.

[Host 2]

I want to know.

[Host 1]

We. We don't. We don't think you did. We're right there with you.

[Host 2]

It's not called Delulu. It's called due diligence.

[Host 1]

It's called research.

[Liv]

Well, and I had just lost Andrew, and the thought of being heartbroken again was so worrisome to me that I just wanted to protect myself. So, unfortunately, I ended up finding out that there was three other girls that had posts, all the same gifts that he had gotten me for Christmas on their social media platforms.

[Host 2]

They got toasters, too.

[Liv]

Yeah. What? What? So we're talking the same teddy bears, the same orchid flowers, like, everything to a T. The same T shirt. He bought four of each. He did.

[Host 1]

He got it in bulk. He went to Costco. Wait, so he. All these people were posting it too? And was he, like, commenting on it or tagged in it? Did he have any kind of stealth.

[Liv]

No, he wasn't tagged. He liked everything, and he didn't make any comments. I ended up finding out that some of the girls were at. In actual relationships, and some of them were single.

[Host 1]

Wait, in relationships with him?

[Liv]

No. Like, with somebody else? Yeah.

[Host 2]

Oh, my God.

[Liv]

I was just devastated, obviously. I felt like, this whirlwind of emotions just once again come over me where I was like, how could I have done this to myself? Like, you know, oh, my goodness. Like, this is not good.

[Host 2]

How could I be so dumb? Like, how could I not see this?

[Liv]

Right? So I decided obviously to confront him. And he had said, like, the one girl that he was in the photos with, she and him had been in a relationship, and he had actually ended it before he had gotten involved with me, so she must have not have taken the photos down off of the wall. And I thought, okay, like, that kind of makes sense. Like, if they did split up, you know, sometimes people just want to hold on to things. So I thought, okay, no biggie. But I was a little bit agitated that he was obviously with her at New Year. So I felt super uncomfortable. And then he had been honest and said, listen, like, I was seeing the three other girls on and off. You and I were not in a committed relationship at the time. Like, we weren't official. Official. Like, I didn't want to come forward and be open and honest with Andrew's family. I didn't want to post it on Facebook or Instagram because I was trying.

[Host 1]

To protect those I loved and Your daughter's involved. Like, there's so many reasons to take it slow and.

[Liv]

Right.

[Host 1]

Right.

[Liv]

I know. So I obviously decided to stop talking to him because I just. I knew deep down that it was a bad decision, and I just couldn't go through with it. So we did stop talking for about two months, roughly.

[Host 1]

How did he respond to your breaking it off with him?

[Liv]

He was, like, cool as a cucumber. Like, he wasn't that phased. He was just like, I think they're overreacting. Like, I'm being honest with you.

[Host 2]

Like, okay, fella.

[Liv]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

I hate that. Okay. This year was a big year for fantasy and smut for Hannah. I was really in that era for me, and it was newer, and I loved it. I did read A Court of Thorns and roses. I read 4th Wing, and I needed more, so I went to Dipsy whenever I needed that. And if you've been following us, you know that we love Dipsy. It's an app full of hundreds of short, sexy audio stories designed by women for women. But what I love about it is that it has options for literally anything that you're interested in. It brings scenarios to life with, like, very immersive soundscapes. And the characters are realistic. They're not cringe. I promise. I am so, like, immediately turned off if it's cringy. And it wasn't. I was shocked. And the stories can be about a second chance romance, maybe a vacation fling. Maybe you want three people involved. Maybe you want more than that involved. I don't know. You do. You? You and Dipsy, it's just for you guys, I'm not there. And there's also fantasy stuff. So you can get vampires, you can get Greek gods. You can get the fairy smut that you love. Just explore the bounds of your pleasure. And you never get bored because they release new content every week. So in between your favorite stories or new ones, there's always something. And I love also, they update stories with similar characters and the same characters so you can, like, follow along. You think you have a parasocial relationship with us, just wait till you get on Dipsy. But the nice thing is that I'm joking, but I really do think that getting in touch with yourself, your own desires and your own body is so important for confidence and wellness. And Dipsy is a really cool way to do that. That's created by women like us. So they also have sleep stories and wellness sessions and stuff you can do with a partner. You can listen to with a partner. I love. They have, like, Guided breath stuff, self touch lessons. It's like crazy. It's so good. So Dipsy could be your go to place to spice up your me time and explore your fantasies. So for listeners of the show, Dipsy's offering an extended 30 day free trial. When you go to dipsystories.com TDD that's 30 days of full access for free. So you kind of don't have a choice. Like you don't have an excuse. Like, why wouldn't you do that when you go to D I P s e a stories.com TD dipsystories.com TDD and have fun, wink wink.

[Liv]

So two months later, we were both attending the same event and he knew I was going to be there and he had purchased a large bouquet of flowers and had a whole apology prepared for me.

[Host 2]

Of course he did.

[Liv]

So. So I did end up forgiving him. And he had asked me to spend Valentine's Day together. He said that he had deleted the girls off of his social media and that he had no plans on having any conversations with them. So I said, okay, I will spend Valentine's Day with you. Let's do this, let's move forward.

[Host 2]

So his excuse was, well, we weren't official or we weren't whatever. Like, we weren't whatever. But now he's setting an expectation, like, okay, they're gone now.

[Liv]

Right. And like he was fully committed to me at that point. Like he said, like, we are officially together. We're not gonna have any confusion here.

[Host 2]

Yeah, the confusion is gone. Okay.

[Host 1]

Right. Typical man. Overlap of communication. Like I could make that excuse.

[Liv]

Right. So yeah, two months later, I end up getting a pregnancy test and missed a period and found out I was actually expecting.

[Host 2]

Wow.

[Host 1]

Oh, wow.

[Liv]

It was quite the surprise.

[Host 2]

And how long had you guys been together at that point?

[Liv]

It had been just under a year.

[Host 2]

Okay.

[Host 1]

Wow. And you've been with this guy like a couple months on and off?

[Liv]

Yeah. We were just approaching the one year mark and I was shocked. I was obviously not planning on having a baby. The first thought that went through my head was, oh, my goodness. Like, how is Andrew's family going to cope and deal with this news?

[Host 2]

They're gonna be sad and be like, how could you replace him so quickly? Blah, blah, blah.

[Liv]

Definitely. And I even felt that way myself. Like it was way too soon, way too quick. And I wasn't in the right state of mind either. Like I was still dealing so much with grief despite being with Caleb.

[Host 2]

So you felt guilty?

[Liv]

I did. 100%. I did. But I had had a conversation with Caleb, and he was very happy. He did not want me to abort the baby, and I didn't want to either, because I had just experienced a loss with Andrew, and it was very difficult for me and Andrew and I had always talked about having a boy, and in my heart, I just knew I was going to have a son, and I knew that Andrew was gonna send me a little boy. So I had all these thoughts and emotions running through my head. And at the time, Caleb and I were living in separate houses, so I was in Montreal, and he was out of town. And I was thinking, like, how is all of this going to work? But we're going to have to plan, obviously, to move in with each other after the baby's born. So that was kind of my thought process on everything. And around, I want to say, four months of being pregnant, I had traveled to his house, and I ended up finding sex toys in his closet. And I was obviously very shocked.

[Host 2]

Wait, like, what. What was shocking about sex toys?

[Liv]

We had never used them.

[Host 1]

Were they not yours?

[Liv]

No, we had never used them.

[Host 2]

Oh, they were, like, couples toys.

[Liv]

Yes. Oh, okay.

[Host 2]

Okay, okay.

[Liv]

So there was, like, lube and just a whole bunch of items in the closet. That struck me very odd that he'd have them, like, so out in the open if they were something that he had used with his exes. So I was obviously very confused.

[Host 2]

Okay. It's as if they had been used recently.

[Liv]

Yeah. So I had confronted him, and he was like, they're all old. Like, I just need to throw them out. Like, please don't get upset. You're gonna stress out the baby. Like, this is nothing. Don't overreact.

[Host 1]

And I was like, that feels manipulative to say you're gonna stress out the baby.

[Liv]

Right. So I was like, okay. He's like, I'm gonna throw them out right in front of you. Like, don't worry about it. So I was like, okay, sounds good. But again, I had that feeling in the pit of my stomach, but I just decided to ignore it because what was I going to do? Right?

[Host 2]

And he was making an effort to rectify it, and he was.

[Liv]

He really. And, like, if you had seen him in person, like, the look on his face and the way he was comforting me and, like, you know, he was physically touching me and, like, reassuring me. I just. I really did believe him, despite having that icky feeling.

[Host 2]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Liv]

So obviously, I was concerned about what was going on, and I decided to check his closet a few weeks later. To see if there was anything that was left or I could find any kind of clues. And I ended up finding a Valentine's Day card from a girl.

[Host 2]

Like a recent one?

[Liv]

Yes. And it read, I wouldn't want to spend Valentine's Day with anyone else, not even my husband. Yes. And it was signed, I love you, Grace.

[Host 1]

Wait. Oh, my gosh. So he's like, full on a fair city.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

Wait, wasn't he with you on Valentine's Day?

[Liv]

Yes.

[Host 1]

So how did he spend Valentine's Day with Grace?

[Liv]

My assumption is, is that he must have celebrated Valentine's Day with me, and then it either happened that night or the day after.

[Host 1]

Maybe they made their own. Cause she had to be with her husband. So they probably did like a February 16th or something and made their own Valentine's.

[Liv]

Right? Definitely. I.

[Host 1]

That's horrid.

[Liv]

I was absolutely hysterical. Like, absolutely hysterical. It wasn't even pregnancy emotions. I just was beside myself. And I'm thinking, oh, my goodness. Like, like you said, when did this happen? Who is she? She has a husband. Like, what do you mean? So I instantly took the card and I confronted Caleb immediately. And I was like, what is this? And he's like, I broke things off with her. She's an ex girlfriend. There was actually more girls that I was talking to prior to being with you. So, like, add her into the group. And I was like, oh, my goodness.

[Host 2]

We're just grandfathering these girls into this place. You know what I mean?

[Liv]

Right.

[Host 1]

He's like, what's. What's. What's one or two more? One or two more?

[Host 2]

It's fine.

[Liv]

So he had said because she had a husband and because things were complicated, he didn't want to pursue anything. So she was kind of still holding on to, I guess, the hopes that they would be together, but because she didn't have him on social media and they had no contact, she didn't know that he was moving on, and he was happy. So, like, this was just a one off, and she had mailed it to the house.

[Host 1]

Why didn't he throw it out then? Why don't you tell you about it then? If my boyfriend gets a card from an ex, I'd like him to let me know, you know?

[Host 2]

But they did spend Valentine. Didn't it say they spent Valentine's Day together?

[Liv]

Yes. Yes. And I had asked him. He denied. He was like, no, I was with you Valentine's Day. There was no way. So, of course, my mind is all over the place. I'm thinking, okay, you know what? Time did he leave my house looking at text messages.

[Host 2]

And now you're. Yeah. You're counting backwards the timeline.

[Liv]

And when I had looked back at our call log and text messages, there was was like a five hour period that I hadn't heard from him or talked to him.

[Host 2]

And you were like, that's gotta be it.

[Liv]

So I was obviously just like, okay. He had to have been with her. Like, who just sends a card like that to an ex boyfriend?

[Host 2]

Nobody.

[Liv]

It had been months. Right. So I definitely found that highly suspicious. And I was like, I don't want to do this anymore. Like, in my head I was just like, I can't. There's red flags going off. There has been red flags going off. But here I am, pregnant with a baby. I have my daughter, who has now met him, been around him.

[Host 1]

Did they get along?

[Liv]

They did. They really did. They were awesome with each other. And I think that he brought her a lot of comfort because, as I had mentioned, she wasn't able to really grasp what was going on. And he would sing like Little Mermaid with her and again, just like, paint her nails and hang out. Like, he was so sweet with her.

[Host 2]

That would piss me off. Knowing that he's lying to you.

[Host 1]

Like, no, because he's lying to both of you.

[Liv]

I know. It was. It was just devastating. And I'm thinking, well, what am I gonna do now, though? Because Andrew's family knows that I'm pregnant. Everybody knows that I'm pregnant. And there was a lot of people that were supportive of me moving on. And then there was a lot of people who weren't supportive of me moving on. And I'm thinking, I'm gonna prove everybody right right now if I end things here. So I decided to swallow my pride and just continue to move forward because it felt like it was the only option I had at the time.

[Host 2]

Yep. And you felt like you'd feel like a failure, probably, I imagine.

[Liv]

Yeah. Yeah. Like, I'm thinking, like, what does Andrew think of me at this point? You know, like, it was a lot. And I think a lot of people, you know, when they set the narrative of the whole situation, they think like, oh, well, her partner passed away, she moved on, she got pregnant. And I was still. Even in the happiest moments of my relationship, I was still in so much grief. Like, I used to spray his sweater, Andrew's sweater, with his cologne, and dance in the living room to our song when no one was there. Like, I was just devastated. So I didn't want to prove everybody right.

[Host 1]

If you are in a relationship, then you know we're going to tell you that communication is one of the best ways that you can save yourself from not only dogfish, but also just heartbreak in general. That's why I'm very excited that we are doing ads with Paired. It's an app that I've loved for a while and it's for couples who want to strengthen their relationship. It was founded on the simple belief that lasting love is a daily practice. And it really just helps you talk to your partner in ways that are fun, consistent, minimal, but also engaging. And it's backed by experts and relationship therapists to help you guys connect. So how it works is you and your partner download the app, you pair it together so you're like, you know, connected. It shows that you're dating that person on the app. App. And every day Paired gives you personalized questions, quizzes and games that you can do to stay connected or deepen your conversations or just have fun. And it's a very safe space to have an open and honest discussion. And you don't usually see your partner's answer until you answer yourself. So it's all about honesty and not pretending and genuine connection. And I think what I love is that it helps you bring up topics that you might not otherwise think to bring up or maybe that you're nervous to bring up. Like it might ask you a question about a financial situation, starting a family. I won't jump right into that. It like takes account of where you are in your relationship. But it could help you with maybe if you're going to visit family and you haven't talked about something you're nervous about anything like that, like, or just learning about each other, learning about each other's sexual preferences. If you're nervous, you know, you know what the things are that you're nervous to talk about and it helps with that. On top of that, it just has quizzes and cute little ways to get to know each other. I'm doing it right now and let me just say that the question it asked us was what was your most memorable kiss? With John, which is my boyfriend. And it was fun to think about whether you're just a few dates in or have been together a long time. Find the time to connect with your partner and nourish your relationship. Start the year off right with the Paired app. It's easy and fun and it only takes five minutes a day. Head to paired.comdatingdetives to get a seven day free trial and 25 off if you sign up For a subscription, just head to p a I-R-E-D.com datingdetectives to sign up today.

[Liv]

Things did pick up. Things did get better. Like, we were both the happiest. We both had been when my son was born. So it did end up being a boy.

[Host 2]

Oh, you got your boy.

[Liv]

I did, I did. And I was just over the moon. And I really, really felt like Andrew's presence was around me, and so I was very, very happy. But, you know, we were still living separately at the time, and, you know, it was a lot to deal with, going kind of back and forth all the time.

[Host 1]

Yeah. How did that. I'm just imagining raising a newborn going, like a living long distance.

[Host 2]

Yeah. How often would he stay at your house?

[Liv]

And like, so another red flag. He wasn't staying at my house very often. He often blamed the little time that he spent on his motorcycle club. So he'd be like, oh, I have a function to go to, or I have, you know, a ride that I have to do. I can't miss it. I'm sorry. And he would just come and, like, like spend the day with us. And he didn't financially pay for anything. Like, no diapers.

[Host 1]

Wait, what did he do for work?

[Host 2]

Yeah, yeah.

[Liv]

So he had been working and then he was not working. So he was kind of in and out of jobs. And I was just trying to be super supportive because he was trying to change what he was doing. He wanted to make more money. He seemed very motivated.

[Host 2]

He wanted to make more money. So he quit his job club.

[Liv]

Yeah, yeah. And he actually didn't have a working vehicle.

[Host 2]

Oh, no.

[Liv]

Yeah. So I had to go back and forth and commute.

[Host 2]

Wait, he. Was it a motorcycle club or like a bicycle club?

[Liv]

No, like a motorcycle club.

[Host 1]

So couldn't he ride his bike?

[Liv]

Oh, he had his bike. Yeah, he had his bike.

[Host 2]

But you can't put a baby on a bike.

[Host 1]

But he could still come to you.

[Liv]

Well, the thing was, is that another thing I should have realized is that he said to me that he felt more comfortable at his house because his bed was more comfortable. He just overall liked being at his home rather than mine.

[Host 2]

I'm sorry. Try having an infant sitting on your spine from the inside.

[Host 1]

I don't like it at all. But even if that is going to work for a couple, you gotta financially contribute. Like, you can't just be like, you're on your own.

[Liv]

Yeah, for sure. And he. He didn't. And I was so proud that I was able to afford everything on My own, that I didn't even really want his help, but family members and friends were kind of like, isn't this kind of concerning to you that he doesn't want to put forth any effort towards his son? And, I mean, I had thought the same thing, so.

[Host 1]

But you're trying to raise your kids. Like, it makes sense that all of the. Even these thoughts come up. Just so you know. I'm sure. I hope you know, but most guests, if not all guests, go through moments of like, yeah, I knew all these things, but there were so many other things going on in my life. And there were great moments with them. Like, the podcast cuts those out.

[Liv]

Yeah, totally.

[Host 1]

Because we can't fit your whole relationship into an hour. But it's. It's so real that there's so many reasons why you stay, why you ignore whatever it is. Like, there's no shame at all.

[Liv]

And again, like, I just. I couldn't bring myself to, I guess, come to the realization that a lot of people were right about things that were going on because I didn't wanna deal with the judgment and didn't wanna deal with the truth of the matter. So I just wanted to kind of be oblivious in this, like, happy stage I was in, Being a new mom again, new life, new relationship. So I just kind of ignored all the red flags that were going off. So things were going okay despite those few hicc. And I'm from a big Italian family, and Caleb always took interest in, like, my family's traditions and things of that sort. And so he had asked me a lot about my family and my trust fund and started asking a little bit more questions.

[Host 2]

Oh, Nelly.

[Liv]

Yeah. And so I had actually shared with him that any granddaughter and my family would get a large lump sum of money. We call it a boost up. And it's generally from like 20 to 30 thousand dollars in my family. So Caleb was definitely kind of like, wow, like, that's a lot of money. That's super interesting. And I was just like, yeah, but I'm thinking, okay, he doesn't really know my family that well. He's not Italian himself. He's not from a big family. So these questions, like, aren't warranted for any kind of concern. And a few weeks later, Kayla proposed to me.

[Host 2]

Oh, of course he did.

[Liv]

Yeah, he proposed to me. And he was very interested in the whole money aspect of planning the wedding. How much we would get, you know, how many family members were gonna come, how much money they paid for their plates. Like, it became a huge topic of discussion. With us. And again, we weren't living together at the time, and I'm raising our son separately from him, so I was in a more better financial situation than he was. And I think he always knew that deep down. And so there was lots of times that he asked me if I would.

[Host 1]

Financially help him with things like his house or things like the wedding.

[Liv]

Yes. So while we're planning a wedding, he would mention to me that, you know, a certain bill needed to be paid or he was short on money, he couldn't pay for his car insurance. And again, he's between jobs. I'm thinking, I'm starting to plan and prepare for this wedding. I'm paying a lot of the costs. You know, at the end of the day, we're planning on getting married. Why wouldn't I want to be supportive and help my partner?

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Liv]

He's going through this transition period.

[Host 2]

We're gonna get married. Of course I'm gonna help you.

[Liv]

So I thought, you know what? I'll help him out. We're gonna be in a house soon together anyways. Might as well. So I started to pay for his car insurance, his Internet bill, and occasionally I would pay four groceries at the same time. And his car actually had broken down again because he had gotten into an accident. So at this stage, now, every single weekend, I am commuting back and forth from Montreal to his house. So he was able to see us, see his son. And he didn't even have a crib at his house.

[Host 1]

What, he's waiting for you to buy one?

[Liv]

Yeah. So I'm in Montreal. He's in Ormstown, and I have to take a bus and a train every weekend to be able to see him with the babies, with the baby and my. My daughter.

[Host 1]

Oh, my goodness.

[Liv]

And he didn't want to take the bus or the train because he believed that it was beneath him.

[Host 2]

Oh, he didn't want. He couldn't be caught dead in public training.

[Host 1]

Are you kidding me?

[Liv]

No, no. And I'm thinking, like, here I am, like, with a stroller, a car seat, bags, suitcases to go to his house for the weekend. Like, the whole shebang when you have a little one and a toddler. And I'm thinking it would just be so much easier if you could just come to my house. And he just didn't want to. So that was very difficult. And, you know, from the time that my son was born until I moved in with him, everything started to kind of go downhill. Like, he started to manipulate me into paying, you know, $700 of his bills. If I asked him for assistance with something for our son's, you know, like, clothes or if I wanted to get him an exersaucer, he wasn't able to assist me in anything. He made a lot of excuses.

[Host 1]

And you're feeling how you're just kind of treading water in a way.

[Liv]

I was. I was totally treading water. And I thought to myself, you know what? Like, he had shared with me in private discussions that he hadn't really come from a wholesome family. I'm thinking, you know, he was a child of divorce. Like, maybe he doesn't know how to function as a unit, you know, And I. I was trying to make excuses for him, but at the same time, I really did believe that there was, like, an underlining issue. And I knew he loved me. I knew he loved our son and my daughter, but that effort just wasn't being put forth. And I was so confused why I was doing everything. And I really started to take a downslide with my friends and family because people were not happy with his behavior, the lack of effort. They saw me struggling, and I was very overwhelmed. And even at one point, Andrew's family had started to kind of turn away from me temporarily because they were like, we're not happy that you're doing this to yourself. Like, there are causes for concern.

[Host 2]

Did they know that he just wasn't good?

[Liv]

That everybody had told me, like, my nonno, which is my grandfather, my. My siblings, like, everybody had told me, we don't have a good feeling about him.

[Host 2]

Oh, that's hard to hear.

[Liv]

Yeah. And it was all around the time of, like, well, Caleb never was friends with Andrew. Like, just from the get go, everybody was like, something's off.

[Host 2]

But then it's like, is. Are they saying this just because they don't want me to move on too quickly because it's hurtful to them, or are they saying this because they genuinely have concern for me?

[Liv]

You know, like, I was very defensive. Like, I remember saying, like, you've never been put in this situation, and you don't know what this feels like.

[Host 2]

And, yeah, totally.

[Liv]

I'm. It was just so much to cope and deal with in such a short amount of time that I really felt like no one was paying attention to my cries for help. But I did it so quietly, and I didn't want people to be worried about me. I just wanted to move on and be happy rather than sitting in my grief. And it just got worse. Unfortunately, Caleb's dad ended up passing away in the house that we were going to move into. And I just. I will never forget hearing Caleb cry for his dad. Like, just saying dad. And I've lost my dad, obviously. Right. And so I'm thinking, oh, my God.

[Host 2]

Like, how hard that must have been for you both.

[Liv]

Like, it really was. He was just devastated, so that was really, really, really hard. And we were just trying to cope with the loss of his dad. And then 23 days later, my little sister died.

[Host 2]

What?

[Liv]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

Liv.

[Liv]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Oh, my God. I'm so sorry. How did she die?

[Liv]

She passed away from heart failure.

[Host 2]

Oh, bless it.

[Liv]

Yeah. So. And we were just, like, a few months out from my wedding, too. So it was. All these losses were before the wedding, and both of us are trying to cope with these significant losses in our life. And it was very hard to maintain our relationship. And also, like, we're. We're supposed to be excited. We're planning to get married, and you're.

[Host 2]

Grieving your own losses and then trying to be there for each other, grieving their losses. That. Oh, my God.

[Host 1]

Did you feel bonded, or did you feel like it was tumultuous between you?

[Liv]

I definitely felt bonded, for sure. And I felt like I was really able to help Caleb because I had lost my dad, and so I know what it's like to lose a parent, and I really felt like I was able to help him. We planned his funeral. We were very involved in everything, and I know he was super appreciative at my sister's funeral. He treated me like gold. I wouldn't have been able to have gotten through that day without him, Honestly. He made such a huge difference, so I definitely feel very lucky. But at the same time, as time went on, it started to be like, well, I lost my dad, and I'd be like, well, I lost my sister. And it became a tug of war of who was grieving worse because I still had to carry on with all my duties. Right. So. But yeah, we. We lost two loved ones. It was devastating. And they were included in our wedding, which was nice. We made sure to pay tribute to them. And we were just trying to make the best out of a really crappy situation. And Caleb was very detached at the wedding. He actually spent the entire night in the bathroom, so he had missed, like, speeches the first course of our dinner. And I was just like, I've had enough. Like, where is he? What is going on? Like, people were noticing that I was just sitting at our hut, and we had a beautiful, beautiful wedding. Like, luxurious, beautiful wedding. And I'm Just up there all by myself in this beautiful, beautiful white dress. And I'm thinking, okay, like, I gotta go get my husband. So I approach the bathrooms, and there's this. The biggest guy I've ever seen. Like, just like, we're talking, like, 6 foot 7 standing in front of the door, and he's like, you can't come in. And I was like, excuse me, but do you know who I am? Like, I'm coming in that bathroom.

[Host 1]

Like, look at the dress.

[Liv]

Dress. So I pushed him out of the way, and I caught Caleb doing cocaine with his motorcycle club members. And so I was obviously, again, in total shock. I had never seen him partake.

[Host 1]

Yeah, this wasn't something you did. Okay.

[Liv]

No, I'd never seen him partaking in cocaine. Like, I mean, I had seen him drink some beers and stuff like that, but never.

[Host 1]

That's not the same thing.

[Liv]

Yeah. So I was very upset, but again, I'm like, what am I gonna do? We're surrounded by friends and family. We just said our marriage vows, you know, like, this isn't the time. This isn't the place. And, like, we'll just have to have this conversation later. But, like, he knew I was very upset, so he had actually said to me, like, I have a surprise for you. Come outside. And I was like, oh, great. Where are we going? So we get outside, and I see this huge motorcycle.

[Host 2]

What?

[Liv]

No.

[Host 2]

Shut up. Shut up. Yeah, shut up. We're done. We're done here. The episode's over. We're done.

[Liv]

I'm like, what the heck is this? Like, whose motorcycle is this? And he's like, it's mine.

[Host 2]

No. Where'd he get. No.

[Liv]

Yeah. And so I was like. I'm looking at. Like, there was. And we had a very large wedding. But I want to say at least, like, 60 to 80 club members were surrounded me, and I'm in the middle of some motorcycle, and Caleb. So I'm trying to, like, smile and not put on this, like, negative argument in front of everybody who just watched us take our vows. And I said to him, like, how are you? How are you paying for this? Because you could tell, like, it was very, very expensive. It had custom artwork done on it. Like, I knew.

[Host 1]

I love that he introduced it as a surprise, like, for you.

[Liv]

I know. I mean, you could have gotten me, like, a sports card. No, it's something for him.

[Host 2]

Or, like, some lingerie. That's what you said. You know what I mean?

[Liv]

Yeah. So he had said to me, I thought we would just use the money that Your family's giving us for the wedding.

[Host 2]

I'm sorry, what?

[Host 1]

Wait, so who's paying for the wedding that you're currently at, sir?

[Liv]

Yeah, so keep in mind, I had paid for a majority of the wedding. My family had contributed to it. And then they also were giving us this booster. So he's like, yeah, I bought it from one of my friends. Like, I'm gonna need to pay him within the next week or two. Oh, yeah.

[Host 1]

Nope.

[Liv]

Yeah. Nope. So I was angry. Between the drugs, the motorcycle, his behavior that night, like, I honestly. We had our first dance and that was it. I don't even remember dancing with him. Celebrating. Like, I was just so angry. And when we got back to our hotel room, you know, like, I've always believed in the tradition. I'm Catholic. Like, you sleep with your spouse on your wedding night, you celebrate. And he refused to sleep with me. Instead, he wanted. Yeah, he wanted to count the hundreds. Hundreds of envelopes from our wedding for the money that we both received.

[Host 1]

That's disgusting.

[Liv]

And I was devastated. I just remember sitting on the foot of the bed because you want to.

[Host 2]

Spend time with your new husband, and he wants to know how much money y'all got.

[Liv]

I was just thinking, like, is he even gonna stay in the room tonight? Is he gonna go out and, like, frolic with everybody? Like, this, this can't be happening. No. So he had actually opened up one of the envelopes, and it happened to be one of the envelopes where my grandparents, my Nono and Nona, and they had written a note saying that they were only giving Caleb and I $10,000 that night and that they would give us. Us. Yeah, the separate $20,000 at another time. And yeah, my grandfather, like my Nono, decided very early on in our relationship that he wasn't a huge fan of Caleb.

[Host 2]

Oh, everybody wasn't.

[Liv]

Yeah. He saw his red flag. So I knew in that moment that obviously he had reservations when it came to, like, the financial aspect of our relationship. And he wanted to be protective. So he got into a huge fight with me. He was just absolutely enraged that my family would be so disrespectful. And I'm sitting there thinking, buddy, you just bought a $30,000 motorcycle. Our money is going towards that. Like, how can you be upset? It just, like, doesn't make any sense. So after the wedding, I was just, like, overwhelmed with this feeling of I made the biggest mistake of my life.

[Host 2]

Uh huh.

[Host 1]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Liv]

I just started reflecting on everything that was happening, all my choices, and I just didn't know how to cope. I was so concerned for where our relationship and people had asked me and family members. I remember before the wedding had said to me, like, do you want to leave? Like, do you not want to do this? And I'm thinking, what? Like, what are you talking about?

[Host 2]

They knew.

[Liv]

And through reflecting, like, I realized through all these moments, you know, how concerning his behavior was. Like, he had said to me, like, I can't believe your family didn't contribute enough for the wedding. He had even gotten, like, a lockbox safe, and he decided to lock up thousands of dollars that we had remaining from the wedding after he paid for the bike and some other things. And I was allowed. What?

[Host 1]

You weren't allowed? I was gonna say, did he let you in it? No, I'm sure he did not.

[Liv]

No, I was not allowed to have any access to it.

[Host 1]

So this is getting into, like, financial abuse.

[Liv]

Yeah. I was not allowed to have any access because my family apparently didn't contribute enough. And my. My grandfather. My. No, no. Hadn't given us the remainder of the $20,000. He didn't feel like I was entitled to it. So I'd actually have to, like, jimmy rig and, like, screw open the safe. So I was able to pull out, like, some $20 bills because I was responsible for paying, you know, the groceries.

[Host 2]

You had to steal from yourself.

[Liv]

I did. Yeah, I did.

[Host 1]

And where is he all day? Like, where is he going during the day?

[Liv]

So at this point, like, he was working.

[Host 2]

What was he doing?

[Liv]

He was just doing, like, landscape kind of work or, like, renovations. So I was home. And again, I'm paying for so many bills and necessities for the home, and he was just contributing towards our rent at the time. And it wasn't even very much, to be honest. And I was just like, this is terrible that I'm literally having to do this in my own home. I don't have access to the money. It was always a tug of war, fight between the both of us of who was paying more, who's contributing more. He goes to work, he's tired. It quickly just worsened over time with Caleb, and we had actually gotten into a really bad argument with each other over money. Like, two weeks after our wedding, and he grabbed me by the back of my head and had actually thrusted me for. And smashed my face off the dashboard. What? Yeah. And by the grace of God, I actually was not that hurt. Like, I thought for sure my nose was probably broken. And I just remember in the moment. Yeah, like, just being like. Like, like, what Do I. What do I do?

[Host 2]

Like, was that the first time he had ever physically abused.

[Liv]

It was the first time, yeah. He had ever put his hands on me. And I look back and think to myself, like, what could I have done differently? And. And you. You try to meddle with yourself, and I'm like, there's nothing I could have done. I was being as respectful as I could while having an argument about money, and he's screaming in my face, and I did not deserve to be treated that way. So that was devastating. I instantly thought, like, how do I get an annulment? What do I do? How do I buy myself some time, save up some money now that he's taken everything from me? I didn't want to go to my family because, again, like, here I am meeting somebody after Andrew's passing, having a baby, getting married, and then not even two weeks later saying to everybody, I made a huge mistake. He's physically assaulted me. Now what? I need to leave. Like, I just knew the shame that it would bring, especially being in an Italian family. They take. Take your. Your name so seriously, and I didn't want to bring that shame to my family. So I stayed quiet.

[Host 1]

Yeah, like, it's been interesting hearing you talk about the ways many people throughout this story have criticized or judged you in a way that if they were worried about your well being, they made it worse in a way by pushing you away.

[Liv]

It was really hard. My sister was the only person who was very supportive. But even throughout the time, it was difficult for her to stand by my side and answer my phone calls because it went from being phone calls of, like, happy and, like, updating her about my day and just having sister chats to now every time she answers the phone, she's scared that I'm hurt, I'm in a fight, or something bad has happened. She said every time her phone rang at night, she would just feel sick to her stomach and be scared, like something was seriously wrong. Because we started to see right after the wedding, within two weeks, a lot of aggression come out of him, a lot of arguments. And I was just so emotional again. I'm still battling the loss of losing my little sister. He's dealing with the loss of his dad. And even in those moments, I was trying so hard not to make excuses for him.

[Host 2]

Sure.

[Liv]

But there was times where it came through my mind of, you know, he had just lost his dad. Like, maybe he's just not coping well. Maybe he needs to go on antidepressants.

[Host 1]

Like, yeah, this isn't him. This Is just. Just temporary.

[Liv]

Yeah. And he had been, despite all the red flags, you know, we keep looking back at all the positive moments rather than the negative moments. So I wasn't being realistic. And two weeks after our wedding, Caleb got into a near death car accident.

[Host 1]

My goodness. On his motorcycle. On his new motorcycle?

[Liv]

No, in his truck. I don't know how he had survived, truly. He had a brain bleed, broken bones, a broken hip, like just a whole bunch of things. He couldn't walk, he couldn't function, use the washroom. And so I'm like, oh my goodness. Despite everything that had just gone on, I'm thinking I need to be supportive of my husband. Like again, I almost just lost somebody that I care about and that I love. You know, I have to just be here for him. And this was during COVID so a lot of surgeries were delayed at the time.

[Host 1]

So you're a full on caretaker, I imagine.

[Liv]

Yeah. So Caleb had to come home again. Couldn't properly walk and function. So I had to not only take care of the children, the house animals, but I also had to take care of him, assist him with showering, going to the washroom, everything. I just fully deep dived into being a wife. And he would essentially just watch movies all day in bed. He became very miserable during his recovery. Very, very verbally abusive with me. Just constant put downs. He didn't want to spend any time with myself and the kids. So that was extremely challenging because I'm feeling like I'm getting nothing out of this. Even more.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Liv]

And he wasn't able to work. So again, here I am financially paying for everything while he literally still had at the time. Because again, it had only been two weeks. All this money put away and hiding in the safe. But I couldn't have any access to it after his accident. So it was very difficult. Very, very, very difficult after his accident. And I hadn't been intimate with him since before the wedding. What? Yeah. So his recovery was like roughly five months. And we were not physical with each other.

[Host 1]

So there's like basically no connection other than you being everything to him and paying his bills.

[Liv]

And paying the bills. So I was frustrated when I knew it was not only just affecting me, but now it was affecting the kids. But again, like, now there's Covid. No one's really moving. There's all these restrictions that are going on in Montreal. Like, what? What do I do? Where can you go? How is my family gonna react to. I'm leaving my husband, who just had a near death experience as Much as they disliked Caleb.

[Host 2]

You're gonna look like the most insensitive person in the world.

[Liv]

Yeah. There was no. No winning. I was stuck with him. I was stuck with him. And at the time, I had no vehicle. We only had his. So I had spent so much money of my own money on our wedding, and I knew I was just gonna have to cope and deal with my situation. And, you know, he was on his phone a lot. Obviously, he, you know, was bedbound, but he was always on his phone. And I just felt so uncomfortable with the fact that he didn't want to spend any family time. You know, we weren't having any kind of physical relations with each other, and.

[Host 2]

He was just somewhere else.

[Liv]

I need to look through his phone and figure out what's going on. So I end up coming across a porn site, and he was just like, yeah, listen. Like, it's. It's spam. Like, don't worry about it. And I was just like, I don't understand. Like, you don't want to be physical with me, but.

[Host 2]

But you're watching porn.

[Liv]

You're watching things on a porn site. Like, it's just not making sense. And I have needs as a person as well, and they're not being met. You're not even making any effort. Like, even in regards to giving me a kiss. I would have to pull teeth to get that. And it was very difficult. And he was very dismissive. I just knew something was off, something was not right. And a few months later, he just started to act very differently. I got into more fights with him. We were having no sexual relations with each other. It honestly seemed like I was just a ghost that walked around the house. Like, he did not care about me in any sense or form.

[Host 2]

Wow.

[Liv]

Not even as a mother to the kids. Like, I was essentially.

[Host 2]

You guys are roommates.

[Liv]

Exactly. So, yeah, one day before Christmas, he decided he was gonna go Christmas shopping. And at this point, like, he was somewhat mobile and moving. And I said, okay, no. No worries. I'm thinking, like, this is nice. Maybe he's gonna go out and buy us a whole bunch of stuff. Like, he's gonna try to be a better person for Christmas. Like, I'm just grasping at straws at this point. And so he ends up putting on his best clothes and jewelry. And he gets back, and he's, like, kissing everybody on the cheek and hugging everybody. And he seems, like, in a really great mood. So were like, wow. Like, let's hold onto this, because he is never in a good mood anymore, and he Went to the bathroom, and he was like, oh, I just need to get rid of, like, you know, some Christmas gifts they won't see, like, blah, blah, blah. Just stay out. So I was like, okay, you know, he's trying to hide my present. But I heard the shower go on, and I thought, hmm, like, that doesn't make sense at all. And I was like, okay, like, I need to once again take this into my own hands and figure out what's going on, because the math ain't happen. Yeah, I just. I couldn't deal with anything else popping up, happening, being made aware of something. I was very much struggling day to day with just waking up and getting out of bed. And I knew I needed to be proactive. So he was sleeping one night, and I was so scared. I just remember my heart pounding as I crawled onto the floor, and thank goodness our room was carpeted. And I crawled over and I got his phone. I took off the phone case, and I left the phone case on the nightstand, and Caleb was passed right out. And I quickly ran out of the room into the spare room, and I started doing a deep dive of his phone, and I couldn't find anything. And I'm thinking, okay, like, you're really paranoid. Like, he. There's nothing on here, Liv. Like, what are you doing? And. And finally, I decided to go on Google, like, Chrome instead of Safari. And I find this, like, classified ad. And so, of course, I click it, and it's this whole thread of conversations with people that he had hooked up with and, like, pictures. And I'm thinking, what the heck is going on now? Like, oh, my goodness. So while I'm looking through these messages. Absolutely. Just destroyed, I discovered that whenever, you know, he was saying he was going to the clubhouse for the motorcycle club.

[Host 1]

Oh, my God, the Motorcycle Boys.

[Liv]

Yeah. He was actually seeing this woman down the street from me for months. So I ended up finding these messages. Not only do I see, like, again, you know, that he's looking at porn, that he's engaging in these odd conversations, but, yeah, he was talking to a woman, and what can you do?

[Host 1]

You rem. What he was talking to her, like.

[Liv]

App or whatever it was. I forget what it was called, to be honest, but it was something weird. Yeah. And I just. It literally opened up all of their messages. I had all the information. She was 21 years old, and she lived right down the street from us. Oh, no. So. Oh, my God. I just remember, like, my ears starting to ring and getting extremely hot, and the room started to been, like, I Was just like, this, this can't be happening. Like, I had no understanding or even thought that. Yeah, that he would go outside of our marriage and partake in cheating on me physically while I've been caring for him, paying for everything. I just was like, this, this can't be happening. It was just devastating. And he was romantically involved with this woman and he was saying, you know, he, he. He couldn't stop thinking about her, that he was saving himself, like, sexually for her. So here I am, like, not having any engagement with my husband, and he's just like holding on to it for another woman. So she actually lived with her parents? Yeah, she lived with her parents. And so Caleb would actually need to sneak into her home.

[Host 2]

Wait, how old was Caleb at this point? How old are you guys?

[Liv]

Price. So Caleb at that time was 39.

[Host 2]

Oh.

[Host 1]

Oh, so he was a lot older than you.

[Liv]

Yeah, he was older than me yet.

[Host 2]

But 21 and 39. Like, I mean, I get it, it's an age difference and a big thing, but like, it still, it speaks to the. You're married, you're a grownup now.

[Host 1]

Like, do I. Yeah, we know what he was looking for.

[Liv]

Yeah, he was 39. Yeah, it was just like, again, it just like you're sitting there and you're thinking, what don't I have? Like, I've literally tried to give him everything. Like this 21 year old who lives with her parents. I just like, I don't understand. All I've ever tried to do is be a good wife and being a loving mother. I. I've put so much on the line for this guy and I just couldn't understand. It was, it was absolutely devastating. So I obviously decided to confront him. I was.

[Host 2]

Did you wake his ass up out of a dead sleep? What did we do?

[Liv]

Oh, I did. I was so angry. He was sleeping peacefully. I whipped the phone at him and I was hysterical. Like, I meant business. I had no fear of what he would do to me. I was more scared of what I would do to him. And yeah, he just said, this is a robotic system. This isn't a real person. These messages. Like, this is just some things that guys can do. Yeah, like.

[Host 2]

Just kidding. Like playing with Barbie dolls kind of.

[Liv]

Yeah, it's just this, like, weird chatgpt sexual chat site that I was not aware of. Like, I saw the pictures sent on both ends. Like, I was well aware and I knew there was no manipulating me. I was well aware. I. At that point, I was just so done. And he begged me for you know, forgiveness. He pleaded with me. And again, this is during COVID so I really didn't have the choice to go and stay with family.

[Host 2]

Where are you gonna go?

[Liv]

Out. I had no choice. Yeah. But to. To stay. I just became this, like, shell of a human being at this point. Like, I was just like, what have I done? I was so angry with myself. And I remember just praying to Andrew and being like, oh my God, like, please help me. Like, please don't hate me. I just felt so much. It was just. I felt so embarrassed. I felt just like I had done something so wrong.

[Host 2]

I can imagine that.

[Liv]

So, you know, I was just like, okay, I'm going to have to figure out what I do from here. And I actually messaged and reached out to the 21 year old that he was speaking to and, and after him, and I kind of were like, okay, like, I'm gonna stay. Cause again, I didn't want him to know what I was doing. I wanted to make sure I had my financial situation set up. I was trying to save money and I was sleeping in a different room. And when I found out that he was still in contact with her, and I'm trying to make this effort to put on a good face in front of the kids and to him and collect myself, I was just like, what a piece of shit. Like, I just. I can't believe it. And she told me, like, he's planning on leaving you. And I was like, he's planning on.

[Host 1]

Leaving me with what funds, sir?

[Liv]

Yeah. And at this point, I had spent an crazy. A large sump of money on this man. Like, we're talking, like a lot of money I had spent. And I'm walking away potentially from this relationship in shambles with any money in my pocket. He just literally took everything I had emotionally, mentally, physically, just financially. Just drained me completely. And so a week after I found out about his affair, he told me that he wanted a divorce and he wanted me to move out, which again, like, I was planning in private. But he said that he was in love. And I'm thinking, okay, like, it obviously is the girl. And I thought, okay, you know, he's gonna pursue a relationship with her since they've been having this affair over the several months. And he said, I'm in love with this girl named Julia. I'm thinking, Julia? What are you talking about? Where's Grace? The girl's name was Grace. Right. So I'm thinking, who's Julia?

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Liv]

I was so confused, and I found out that it was actually his Best friend's wife.

[Host 2]

I could.

[Host 1]

I can't predict a single thing about this dang story.

[Host 2]

No twisty tourney.

[Host 1]

Did you know her?

[Liv]

Oh, I knew her. Oh, yeah, she had. And her husband had attended our wedding.

[Host 1]

When did they start their thingy?

[Liv]

It had been going on for apparently a very long time. But I don't necessarily have, like, the full details of it. I just know that he was confiding in her and getting her support through a lot of things.

[Host 2]

And that's how it gets started.

[Host 1]

Emotional. Yes. Okay. And it's his best friends and his best friend's wife.

[Liv]

And they were together a long time. They actually had children, her and her husband. So she had planned on leaving her husband, moving out of the house, taking her kids. They were gonna get a place together, raise her children, be happy. And I'm thinking, I'm trying to cope with the fact that he just cheated on me with this girl Grace, who's 21. And now all of a sudden, it's like this. Bombs dropped on me where it's like, you want to be in a relationship with Julia. And I just remember feeling just in total shock. I almost had no feelings, but. But I was thinking, she held our newborn son. Like, she came up to me and helped fix the back of my train on my dress on our wedding day.

[Host 2]

Like, disgusting.

[Liv]

How could she possibly do this to me? Like, I can't believe that there's children involved on both ends. And I was just devastated. So, yeah, a year later, he served me with divorce papers.

[Host 1]

Wait, where did you go?

[Liv]

I ended up moving. I ended up. Up packing my bags during COVID and I left with the kids. And he wanted Julia to be a part of our son's life almost immediately. Oh, okay.

[Host 1]

Yeah, that's.

[Liv]

There was no waiting period for, you know, time for the kids to adjust and then for myself to adjust or just to heal a little bit. He instantly just jumped into this full blown relationship with her.

[Host 1]

Also, he wasn't even really part of their lives recently.

[Liv]

Like, no, he wasn't.

[Host 1]

And it was all of a sudden.

[Liv]

Yeah, it was very hard for my son to not feel that love and just engagement from his dad on a daily basis while we were living with him. And then all of a sudden, like, now dad's putting on this show of he loves you so much and let me show you how to ride a bicycle. And this woman's watching, and I'm having to stand there putting on a good face, being mature. It was very difficult. So I did end up moving out the Kids, and I got a great head start, and my family was so supportive. And on Andrew's fifth anniversary of his death, he served me with divorce papers. Ew.

[Host 2]

Did he?

[Liv]

No, it was purposely done. Yeah, it was purposely done, but it gets better. He also decided that he was going to be proposing to Julia that night. So.

[Host 1]

Because they have to make everything about them, they can't let you move on. They have to ruin your good moments, your bad moments, moments. Everything has to be about them.

[Liv]

And, yeah, they're. They're still engaged four years later. And, yeah, we're all still legally married.

[Host 2]

Why? What's taking so long?

[Liv]

He's just, I guess, too preoccupied with finding jobs that he just can't.

[Host 1]

He can't sign the papers.

[Liv]

Well, actually, in all fairness, he gave me the divorce papers, and he didn't print off enough like, the paperwork. He was missing a whole bunch of things. And I had signed only two sheets, and I knew something was odd about this. And I'm thinking, this doesn't make sense. And it was going to be a very basic divorce because of how much money he had taken from me. There was really no, okay, good. So.

[Host 1]

Which is great.

[Liv]

I had found out from several people that he was having affairs with them all throughout the time that we had been together on several different occasions. So I found out that the Valentine's Day card from the girl that was given to Caleb, she did, in fact, sleep with him on Valentine's Day. So that was confir. Yeah, they had spent, like, two days together with one another celebrating. So it wasn't just a mailed card, which I think, like, deep down I kind of knew. But again, I was so stuck in the situation. He had also slept with several girls at the clubhouse during his motorcycle events and things of that sort. So that was hard news as well. Yeah, that's scary.

[Host 2]

That's awful.

[Liv]

Yeah. And I was worried, obviously, about, like, STDs and things of that sort. Like, I was very, very concerned. I felt like he put me at risk so many times. And so I was very frustrated. And it wasn't until someone had actually sent me a voice note of. Of Caleb. And he was at the clubhouse, and I listened to it after we had split, and he was actually bragging about how much money my family had right after we met. And I listened to this whole voice note, and it was actually a member of his motorcycle club who had let me listen to it because he was having some issues with Caleb himself. And I just remember thinking this was all just a big setup like, he knew exactly what he was doing. He knew how to get to me.

[Host 2]

Wait, do they know who killed Andrew Drew?

[Liv]

We do. Yeah. So we do know who, and it wasn't this fella? No.

[Host 2]

Oh, okay.

[Liv]

No, no. But, yeah, just, like, even more came to light that they weren't even, like, again, you know, had a few hiccups throughout their teenage years. Like, they were not friends. They were just, like, I guess, mutual on social media and.

[Host 2]

Because Andrew knew, too, that he was no good.

[Liv]

Well, yeah. And, like, when I look back and at, you know, Andrew's social media, there's a family picture of us on one of our trips, and Caleb had messaged and had written, like, what a beautiful family. Like, what I'd give for that one day. And it just, like, sends chills up your spine, you know, of, like, what was this? Like, you know, was this genuine or was it not? And, yeah, it just. I really felt like as much as he came into my life as, you know, this shining light at the beginning, like, he was just so dark in the end, I didn't even know who he was. He ended up getting, like, kicked out of the motorcycle club for doing drugs and I guess.

[Host 1]

Wow, sounds like you have to do a lot of drugs to get kicked out of the motorcycle club. That was.

[Liv]

Oh, yeah, for sure. Like, definitely. And Andrew's mom and I had actually had a discussion after Caleb and I split up, and she had told me that Andrew had a scar on the back of his head. And I remember it. It was a pretty deep scar. And that was actually caused by Caleb. He had hit him in the back of the head with a flashlight at a party.

[Host 2]

What?

[Host 1]

No wonder his family was so upset about it. But I do wish that they hadn't pushed you away, you know?

[Liv]

Yeah. And she had just said, you know, like, I didn't want to share it with you because despite, like, how much you loved my son, and I obviously knew that, like, I wanted you to be happy and my granddaughter be happy.

[Host 2]

And if this was gonna be it, she didn't wanna taint that.

[Liv]

Yeah, she didn't. And she's. She's honestly the sweetest woman in the entire world. We are so close. She's, like, become my mother. I'm very grateful, very lucky that we've been able to kind of get over every poor decision I have made with that relationship and move forward. And she is just a rock star. She really is. Like, she just supports me in every way, shape or form, loves me for who I am. So I know that Andrew's looking down, smiling. We actually had an incident take place with Caleb a little while ago, and she was a force to be reckoned with, that woman. She once again supported me. Yeah, I was. So we're obviously co parenting, Caleb and I, and he's moved in with Julia now, you know, having a happy family with her. And I try to get along with Julia like the best I can despite everything. And I'm my son's primary residence, and we actually have like a final court agreement that states that, you know, Caleb needs to return him after his parenting time is done, on the weekends, every other weekend. And he's never really respected our final order, like, he's always breached it, and I've just had to kind of deal with it, which is very frustrating.

[Host 1]

There's only so much fighting you can do.

[Liv]

I know, know, I know. And you can't go back to court for every small thing that happens either. So. Yeah. He ended up taking my son in December and it was raining and he was like, listen, I can't bring him home. I know he's not supposed to be back tonight. He's supposed to go to school, but it's like, you know, worrisome conditions outside. Do you mind if I keep him? And I was like, at first I said yes, and then I was, I texted him, I was like, no, like, I think you should just bring him home, please. Like, I just, I didn't have a good feeling.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Liv]

And he said, he's not coming, coming home. I said, what do you mean he's not coming home? Like, he has to go to school. Like, where, where are you? And he's like, I feel like you're mentally unstable and I'm concerned to have our son around you. Yep. And I was just like, oh, my God. Like, I, I, I just, I panicked so badly. It was like I would have relived all, like three deaths all over again if I could have. If I had just had my son back in my arms in that moment. Like, I, I was just devastated. And he said that him and Julia were keeping our little guy. And he had even went so far to even contact the school and say that our son wasn't going to return to school anymore.

[Host 2]

I'm, I'm sorry. What?

[Liv]

I actually had to get up, go to court. I didn't have any money to represent myself with a lawyer, so I had to represent myself.

[Host 2]

Wait, your family didn't give you money to help you?

[Liv]

No, I. Honestly, after everything that's happened, I was like, I am going to stick it to him, and I'm going to do it on my own. And I'm going to show him what a strong, independent woman I am. I did so much research about the court system and I was like, I got this. And I did like, I remember the clerk telling me, I have never seen a person self represented get rights back to their children and have a police enforce expert motion with the sheriff's department on a doorstep so quickly.

[Host 2]

Wow.

[Liv]

And so my girl was messing her around. I was not. And I was very proud. And one woman actually even like, said, oh, I think you should work here.

[Host 1]

I was gonna say, should you go to law school?

[Liv]

Thank you. I did not. But, you know, maybe this is something I should get into. But I got them back and I was so happy.

[Host 2]

How long were you without them?

[Liv]

Five days. It felt honestly like two weeks. It. I didn't sleep, I didn't eat. I couldn't even function. So he got his visitations back. It's his. It was supposed to be the first weekend our son had to see Caleb. And he actually canceled that first weekend because it didn't work for him and Julia, of course. So it was the second weekend and our son went to his house and the front door gets kicked in. SWAT bursts through the house apparently, and he ends up getting arrested in front of not only my son, our son and Julia's kid.

[Host 2]

Wait, for what?

[Host 1]

What's going on?

[Liv]

So he had actually was involved in a robbery where $630,000 worth of stuff was stolen. What? Yes. Like large pieces of stuff. And so, yeah, I'm dying.

[Host 2]

I'm dying for this.

[Liv]

Right? So I'm thinking, like, how much worse can this possibly get? But it gets better than that. So I didn't even know this had taken place or happen. Keep in mind, I end up getting a phone call from children's aid society and they were like, no. Do you have so and so back my son? And I'm like, no. And I'm like, why are you calling me? Like, what is happening? They're like, did someone not tell you that your ex husband was arrested?

[Host 2]

Oh.

[Liv]

And I'm like, no. Where's.

[Host 1]

Where's my son?

[Liv]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Liv]

And so Julia had actually lied to me and said, like, there was a snowstorm and a power outage and she wasn't able to like, get back because she couldn't get out of the driveway. And I'm thinking, where's Caleb that he can't shovel or use a snow blower for the driveway? This doesn't make sense. And Then I was obviously very panicked, but she was thinking, oh, you know, if I don't say anything and keep him for these two days, you know, Liv isn't going to know that Caleb got arrested. She can't use it in her court case. So she actually had him for two days. He had no contact with me. Obviously terrified his dad had gotten hurt in the arrest. So, yeah, he actually got three and a half years in prison.

[Host 2]

What?

[Liv]

Yep. Three and a half years, which he was looking at much, much, much longer than that. Mm. And he didn't talk to our son for a total of six months because he thought I tipped off the police. Police.

[Host 2]

So he. Okay.

[Host 1]

Punishes the sun. Even if that was true, but still.

[Host 2]

When did his sentence start?

[Liv]

It actually just started not that long ago.

[Host 2]

She's like, last Monday.

[Host 1]

So you're free for a little bit.

[Liv]

The terrible thing is, is in Canada, a lot of inmates will be released from prison early, so he probably won't even do that long. Unfortunately, our jails are overcrowded here, and our justice system is ridiculous. But, yeah, he thought I tipped off the police, so he wanted nothing to do with our son for a large amount of time. And then, yeah, I ended up, like, talking to Julia on the phone after all this went down. She did apologize to me for withholding my son, and she was like. I was in a total panic. And in all fairness, like, I was mad. I wanted to stick it to her, but I heard that same voice that I used to have, y. And I almost felt sympathetic for her.

[Host 2]

You felt sorry for her?

[Liv]

Yeah. And so she had actually told me that she had given Caleb over $10,000 to start, like, a landscaping business.

[Host 2]

And you were like, oh, man, she was in my shoes.

[Liv]

Yeah. She was paying for a majority of bills as well. Like, the same verbal abuse was on and off going on. She had actually told me a bunch of information, and I'm not the type of person where it made me feel good. Like, it's like, I told you so. I didn't want to stick it to her.

[Host 1]

It's like he just keeps going.

[Liv]

Yeah. I just. He keeps finding women who are in positions where, once again, like, they're either naive or they're easily, like, a target. Yeah.

[Host 1]

Well, I think also the question of, like, yeah, he's good at what he does, but so much. Much of your initial relationship with him was your grieving and taking advantage of that. Like, do you think this. It's interesting that she was in a different position. Like, he could do this to anybody, but I do feel like that is a huge part of how it worked for you. I don't know, like, do you think that he really targeted you because of that? And I don't know. How do you move on from that?

[Host 2]

You feel like you were targeted?

[Liv]

Oh, yeah. I believe now that like, like in some way this was his last betrayal towards Andrew. I believe that he is so sinister and narcissistic and sick minded that he felt like, huh, like I got the last laugh after all these years and all the information I'd found out. He got his family, he got his woman, his daughter. You know, he took over over $60,000 from me and our whole entire relationship, you know, he saw me as vulnerable and naive and grief struck in and he knew exactly what to do, how to make me feel special. He manipulated those red flags going off and I was just so fragile the entire time. Yeah, he was just terrible to deal with in so many, so many ways. Definitely took advantage of me in every word of the form. And I'm still trying to recover. I'm still trying to heal. All the money from Andrew and from my dad is gone now.

[Host 1]

Oh, I'm so sorry.

[Host 2]

There's nothing left of their legacy. Like the. No, nothing say, oh, this is from.

[Liv]

Yeah, yeah, nothing. And I, I've literally been so frightened to be in another relationship after experiencing this because it just, it frightens me. And I've had to do therapy and all these things to try to better myself and heal from this traumatic incident and again, dealing with all the grief. So, yeah, I think I'm gonna stay single for quite a while.

[Host 1]

I think that's okay. You don't have to.

[Liv]

You know what? I'm embracing it. I don't mind the single era. It's. I love being in a relationship, a healthy one, of course, but at the same time, I really like the independence I have and I feel very proud of supporting my family. And you should. I've made new friends and I just. I like who I am today. I have no stress. If I want to eat cake at 3am, I can, like, you know, I don't have to stress and worry. But Caleb has never taken any kind of accountability for his actions. There's never been like any kind of apology. And honestly, I don't need one and I don't expect one and I don't expect it. I just, I really pray and hope that there's not gonna be more victims to come. I obviously wish Julia the best, but I mean, she's fully aware of everything and has still chosen to be in a relationship, so we'll have to see what happens. You know, I've said to myself and my friends and even Andrew's family, my children, I want to take this time to focus primarily on raising my beautiful children. And I know one day in God's time, like, I. I will find somebody who will be worth the wait and prioritizing. My kids are going to show them, like, how. Yeah, their mama is like, we don't always need a man. You know, like, there are so many successful, strong women who are not in relationships, and I think we need to embrace it more as a society.

[Host 2]

Thank you so much for sharing your story. I always say you never know when your story can impact someone else. And I feel like someone's gonna listen to you and be like, I have a Caleb. Oh, my God. Like, this is. You know, or.

[Host 1]

I've experienced grief, and it's affected me in some. I think I understand your. Your insecurity, but I. I'm very confident that people will reach out and.

[Liv]

Yeah. And we're all human at the end of the day, right? We're all human, so. Well, thank you guys so much.

[Host 2]

Thank you so much. We're so grateful that you. I just think it's always. It's just so brave and courageous and for going what you. That's just so much for one person to go through and just to share it. I know that must have been difficult, so thank you so much.

[Liv]

Well, I'm happy to share it with you guys. Thank you so much for giving me the opportunity. And if I'm able to help even just one person, it means the world to me.

[Host 2]

Oh, okay. So there's a little bit to unpack here.

[Host 1]

I had to take a laugh.

[Liv]

Are you pissed? Are you?

[Host 2]

I'm. I'm angry. Like, it made me really mad. The narcissism, the audacity of this guy.

[Host 1]

No, he is. Is malicious. I can't imagine anything else.

[Host 2]

No, he is rotten.

[Host 1]

Just the idea of preying on somebody who maybe you're getting revenge on their dead, like, ex. Who's your. What, high school nemesis? It does. Like. I don't know how your brain works.

[Host 2]

Oh, so gross. And I just. I feel like. Can we talk about that for a minute? About being vulnerable and how people prey on unmet needs. That's something that we've talked about a lot since we had a trafficking expert on our show. And it really opened our eyes because she said that a lot of these predators prey on unmet needs, and that's why when we're vulnerable. Like, in this case, Liv lost her baby daddy. Like, this was her guy. Like, you know, she loved him.

[Host 1]

She was mourning, she was dealing with grief.

[Host 2]

Yep. She was grieving. She was mourning. And so here Caleb comes, and she sees him as. You know, she wanted to find love again, but. But also, it made her feel like it was a gift from Andrew. And he knew that she was vulnerable. He prayed on that. And in that situation, in that vulnerability, you are more susceptible to, I think, being preyed upon. And he took it. He took full advantage of that. I'm so mad at him.

[Host 1]

Well, I'm not an expert, but isn't it true that in, like, don't they say that if you get out of rehab or something, you're not supposed to make any big life decisions for, like, a year? There's some kind of.

[Host 2]

You got to focus inward.

[Host 1]

Well, yeah. And psychologically, you're just still. Anytime. A big life event that leaves you vulnerable, that leaves you different or changed.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

I'm not saying that you can't try to connect with people, but I also just think you have to be on the lookout and try to be aware. And I also think that I wish our world prioritized friendships as much as we prioritize romance, because.

[Host 2]

Yes. That's so important.

[Host 1]

Yeah. Of course, after a death or after a trauma, you are seeking connection. And I just wish it was, like, easier to put that energy into friendship so that it could fulfill a lot of that unmet need. So that's a good transition. Because we can talk about how her friends and family reacted to her relationship with Caleb.

[Liv]

Oh, yeah.

[Host 2]

And we've talked about it a lot, too. Too.

[Host 1]

Like, they. I don't. Now, obviously, it's hard when you're in a situation, so we're not one to say, oh, they should have done xyz, because we're right. Every situation is different.

[Host 2]

That's actually what we don't want to do.

[Liv]

That's what we're going to talk about.

[Host 1]

Exactly. We don't. But I just. It's so obvious that when you come at a person with judgment about their choices, it kind of pushes them away more than helps them. Them, in my opinion. What do you think about how they responded?

[Host 2]

Well, I think the most important thing to do for someone when they're going through something is, like you said, don't shove it in their face. Like, you need to leave. Like, they're not an idiot. They know if someone.

[Host 1]

They're not gonna listen.

[Host 2]

Yeah. If someone's being abused they know they're being abused. They're not stupid. Like, the victims of abuse are not stupid. They sometimes find it difficult to leave for the circumstances or whatever, but they're not stupid. Stupid. And so if you continue to say, hey, I'm here for you, I'm here for you, I'm here for you. And you show that consistency over and over, I'm here for you. I see what you're going through, and I'm here for you. When you're ready, I'm here for you.

[Host 1]

Yeah, when you're ready. That's what.

[Host 2]

When you're ready. So you're creating this environment. You're creating a safety net. And the bigger, the more times you say, I'm here for you, I'm here for you, I'm here for you. You're just basically like, they can. In the back of their head, they're taking those little seeds and they're creating this huge safety net. So the more you say it and the more consistent you are with I'm here for you, I'm here for you, you. They know over time that when they are ready, they're going to know that they have a safe place to land. And that could be you. But if you say, oh, you need to leave, that's so stupid. Blah, blah, blah. Like, you don't think they want to. Like, you don't think that. You know what I mean? You don't think it's crossed their mind, probably, but they don't feel either strong enough or don't feel like they can or the circumstances don't allow it or whatever. The best thing you can do is just say, I'm here for you, and be so supportive of where they're at.

[Host 1]

I think some people also, especially if it's like parents or family members, worry about being enablers. They think that if they aren't reprimanding this person for being with someone they don't approve of, then they're not being a good friend or something. And I get that. But just hear us next time you're like, well, I have to hold them accountable. Like, I would want them to do it to me. Just remember that you might be holding them accountable by just letting them come to it on their own. Because just it, like, historically just doesn't work to be like, you're dumb. You're putting yourself in this bad position.

[Liv]

And that makes.

[Host 2]

Right there is when you say you shouldn't be doing this, because then they're like, no, duh. Like, do you know what I mean? Like, yeah, of course.

[Host 1]

Or it makes them think, oh yeah, maybe I am dumb, maybe I shouldn't value myself. You know, the more you hear that, no matter how smart you are, it gets to you.

[Host 2]

Yeah, it's like telling someone to move out of their house. That's easy. Easy to say. Like, you're house is, is crap. Move out of it. And they're like, well, where am I going to go? But if you're just saying, hey, you're doing a great job, and meanwhile on the side, you're building a house for them, building a house for them, they see that you're building this house, then when they go, oh man, I really need to leave this relationship. And they've, they've seen that you're building this house. They, they know that you're building this house for them. Now they feel safe leaving because they know they have somewhere safe to go. So you just, you just keep building that house for them and letting them see, hey, I'm building this house for you. You got a safe place when you need it. And that's what we can be. And in, in Liv's case, I just feel like she didn't get the support that would have been, you know, I think really helpful for her.

[Host 1]

The grandfather holding some of his. The money that he promised her. That was an interesting point because it didn't go well. Like, obviously Caleb responded violently, basically.

[Host 2]

Right. Yeah. Financially, Caleb was mad about it.

[Host 1]

Right. And I get, I, I mean, it was a. Obviously it was not bad because in the long run she had that money saved for her, which I did want to bring up. It made me think of something. A phrase that I heard recently from another podcast. The host is named Tori Dunlap, and on its social media, she's her first 100k. It's all about like, finance and support for women primarily. And she talks about something called a fuck off fund. Earmuffs for the kids. Sorry, I should have said that. A fuck off fund. And it's like everyone should have a fuck off fund in case you don't to right off.

[Host 2]

Yep.

[Host 1]

And like, just think of that whenever you're like, yeah, it's a safety net. But I like the phrase off fun. So shout out to her first 100k.

[Host 2]

Iteration is always really fun. So I really like that.

[Liv]

A lot of money in my fuck off.

[Host 1]

And it's like, you could have the most stable, wonderful position in the world, but just have it. You never know.

[Host 2]

Yeah, you never know when you're getting.

[Liv]

That fuck off fund.

[Host 1]

I know. And she ended up when she was trying to leave, it was like she was, like, getting herself together. I was like, oh, she's building a fuck off fun. Gotta do it. Oh, wait, what else? There was more. Oh, yeah. The financial abuse of, like, hiding her money and not letting her have it.

[Liv]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Like how that, like, really, you put it in a box that I don't have access. You can f. Right off, like, you.

[Liv]

Know what I mean?

[Host 2]

Who does this guy think he is?

[Host 1]

He kind of, like, built up to that point too. It's like he wasn't. The way. He wasn't abusive until she was in really deep. And that's the other thing. You just mentioned something that made me think of, like, the why people don't leave question. Once you face the truth, you blow up so much of your life for both yourself and your children.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

It's not as easy as just like, oh, let me get the kids and go and start over.

[Host 2]

It's like, yeah, let me go just move to go to another house and then we're okay. Everything's fine. It's not that easy.

[Host 1]

And she did a good job of sharing how difficult it was.

[Host 2]

Let us know what you guys think. I'm certain this is not. There's going to be so many people who say, oh, my gosh, I had an ex who. Or my ex girlfriend did this or my ex boyfriend did that. And they're gonna. So many people are gonna relate to this. So we're proud of you, Olivia, for sharing your story. And we're just. We're grateful for you for.

[Host 1]

Oh, also, people who have ex. I mean, experience grief. But I know it is common for people to connect with mutual friends of the person that was lost or somebody that came in as a support system. Him in the period of grief the way he did, he was nasty. But I know it can work. So I'm like, I wonder if there are people who could talk about, like, how they experienced a relationship like that without maybe without rushing into it or, like, what can you do to allow yourself to open up to a relationship when you're vulnerable without.

[Host 2]

Without being so. So vulnerable that you get.

[Liv]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Fished or whatever. Yeah. Either way. Either way, it's never your fault. Regardless of the situation. If someone dog fishes you, it's never your fault. It's not. You're not stupid and it's not your fault. You didn't deserve it. And that's just the bottom line, like, period.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Email us if you have a story that you'd like to share on the podcast. If we can be an ear for you or if you just have a story that you send in that maybe it's not a full episode, maybe it's just a Patreon episode. Make sure you email us at Investigate the Dating Detectives podcast dot com. And don't. Don't forget to listen to our sister show the Medical Detectives. So good.

[Host 1]

It's so. I cried listening to the latest episode, but they're. It's the first episode they've done with a guest. Kathy was the guest. I'm excited to hear what y'all think.

[Host 2]

Yeah, I think you'll really love it. So anyway, send us your stories and let us hear what you have to say. Weigh in on our socials. Please continue to share the Dating Detectives on your social because the more you share, the community just keeps growing, and we're so proud of it. So let's keep it. Let's keep it going. Let's keep it growing.

[Host 1]

Hey, keep it going. Keep it growing. She said rapper now.

[Host 2]

That's what she said.

[Host 1]

Okay, cut us off.

[Host 2]

Okay.

[Host 1]

You gotta get cut off.

[Host 2]

As always, as always, trust your intuition.