The HR Nightmare: Part 2

Summary

The Dating Detectives – "The HR Nightmare: Part 2" (Feb 23, 2026)

Podcast by Dear Media – Hosted by Private Investigator Mackenzie Fultz and Comedian Hannah Anderson
Special Guest: Kayla

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Episode Overview

In the deeply anticipated continuation of "The HR Nightmare," hosts Mackenzie and Hannah welcome back Kayla for the dramatic conclusion of her long-term, emotionally draining, and manipulative relationship with “Aaron,” her former HR boss. This episode delves into the unraveling of a complex web of lies—centered around fake illnesses, financial manipulation, and emotional gaslighting—and the toll it took on Kayla’s mental health. The discussion explores the mechanisms of abuse, the lasting effects of gaslighting and betrayal, and the arduous road to personal healing.

Content warning: This episode discusses topics including suicide and severe mental health challenges arising from abuse and manipulation.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Picking Up From Part 1: Emotional Manipulation Intensifies

• Kayla describes Aaron’s escalating demands—including a request to drop everything and drive four hours to meet for a secret, anxiety-inducing conversation about her (alleged) health.
  • "She’s like, 'can’t you just find a flight over here tonight?' And I’m like... as a responsible adult, I can’t do this." (03:43–04:03, Kayla)
• The weight of Aaron’s secrecy and her refusal to disclose information over the phone set a pattern of controlling behavior.

[04:13] — Aaron Claims Cancer Diagnosis

• Aaron claims a mass on her ovaries is likely cancerous, provides medical images, and introduces layers of deceit around her health.
• Kayla shifts into a caregiving role, setting aside her needs to cater to Aaron's (often fabricated) crises.

2. Financial Manipulation & “Dry Begging”

• Aaron subtly pressures Kayla into managing and ultimately paying medical bills under emotional pretense.
  • "She is keeping you in a place where you’re helpless in a way." (06:34, Hannah)
• Aaron increasingly positions herself as financially destitute, using Kayla’s empathy to her advantage (“dry begging”).
• Eventually, Aaron uses the pretext of shared life goals to obtain access to Kayla’s credit card, leading to significant unauthorized spending.
  • "I get my statement... and it’s $5,000, the highest credit card bill I’ve ever had... she’s putting $400–500 of groceries [on it]." (17:18, Kayla)

3. The Isolation Trap & Emotional Toll

• Kayla describes sacrificing her own support systems, hobbies, and needs for Aaron, eventually seeking therapy for support.
• Aaron weaponizes her illness to avoid intimacy and help, increasingly isolating Kayla.
  • "She said, 'Kayla, I don’t have time to be there for you right now. I’m fighting cancer.'" (09:00, Kayla)
• Kayla’s therapist encourages her to rebuild a social circle—she joins a kickball league, providing some relief and connection.
• When Kayla enjoys time with new friends, Aaron accuses her of cheating in a fit of jealousy and insecurity, even after Kayla offers full transparency.
  • "She goes on a tangent that I cheated on her... and breaks up with me." (13:52, Kayla)

4. Escalation: Lies, Excuses, and Red Flags

[19:40] — The BMW Incident: Discovery of Covert Living Arrangements

• Kayla catches Aaron lying about being at Walmart when she is actually spotted with her ex-husband in a different car.
• Aaron's convoluted explanations unravel, leading to a breakup and further gaslighting.
• Aaron fabricates a new elaborate crisis—claiming the death of a distant relative—and cancels their plans for Kayla to meet her children.
• When Kayla investigates (using PI skills), she finds clear evidence Aaron and her "ex-husband" are still living together.

[41:33] — Amateur Sleuthing

• Kayla impersonates a DoorDash driver to access Aaron's gated community and confirms her suspicions by observing all family cars at the house.
• Kayla then digs through public records: property deeds, voter registrations, and business records, uncovering no evidence of divorce and indications that Aaron and her husband are still married.

5. Gaslighting Reaches Its Peak: Questioning Reality & Mental Health

• Aaron actively gaslights Kayla, denying the clear evidence and manipulating Kayla into doubting her own mental health—even invoking Kayla’s family history with mental illness.
  • "She’s telling me... I really think you’re having mental [issues]." (32:06, Kayla)
• Kayla, deeply distraught, is misdiagnosed and over-medicated after presenting manipulated evidence and Aaron’s claims to mental health professionals.
  • "Either you’ve been undiagnosed bipolar your entire life, or this woman is completely evil." (33:30, Kayla paraphrasing psychiatrist)
• The psychological toll brings Kayla to the brink of suicide.

6. Breaking the Gaslight & Pursuing the Truth

• Friends, family, and therapists help Kayla see the truth and take tangible steps to independently verify Aaron’s lies.
• Kayla confronts Aaron with overwhelming evidence; each confrontation leads to further deflections, manipulations, and shifting stories (abuse, fake divorce papers, more lies).
  • "Did you ever think that these were maybe fake [divorce papers]?" — "They’re not fake. What are you talking about?" (46:39, Kayla & Aaron)
• Attempts to “help” Aaron transition into a friendship are met with more deception and secrets, leading Kayla to finally disengage.

7. Healing, Recovery, and Reflection

• Kayla reveals surviving a suicide attempt, pushing through profound depression with the help of family, friends, and therapy.
• She reflects on how difficult it is to trust herself and others post-abuse.
  • "I don’t trust myself. I’m so terrified to get back into something where this could ever happen again." (60:59, Kayla)
• The supportive response from her sports community and the hosts highlights the importance of connection and shared experience in healing.

8. Lessons, Closure, and Moving Forward

• Kayla secures some financial restitution by pursuing legal advice; she discovers Aaron fabricated nearly every aspect of their life together—including the “cancer” storyline, confirmed by Aaron’s son-in-law:
  • "Unfortunately, her eventual son-in-law actually works for my company. I did at one point ask him and he was like, 'What cancer?’" (57:00, Kayla)
• Kayla focuses on recovery: prioritizing her own stability, embracing single life with her dog and kickball team, and learning self-love.
• The hosts and Kayla emphasize the challenges of accepting a lack of closure, the necessity of building support, and the enduring damage manipulative relationships can inflict.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Isolation & Emotional Sacrifice:

  • "I was trying really bad to just be there for her... She’s basically acting like she’s superwoman through this whole thing and has no help." (09:00, Kayla)

• On Being Gaslit Into Mental Illness:

  • "She’s telling me... you’re starting to have psychotic delusions. Maybe it’s hereditary... I was numb and could not feel a thing." (32:24–29:29, Kayla)

• Hitting Rock Bottom:

  • "I was to the point where I was considering committing suicide and I was gonna go check myself into an inpatient clinic... I am devastated because I'm like, oh my god, she is lying to me." (35:31–29:29, Kayla)

• On the Power of Community:

  • "My therapist said, you need to build a community around yourself. I hear what's going on, but you need a community." (09:38, Kayla)

• Kayla’s Sleuthing:

  • "I was like, okay, she's in a gated community. How do I get in here? So I'm like, I'm going to pretend I'm a Doordash driver." (39:07, Kayla)
  • "I look up his job. It shows that he lives there on his little profiles... I find their marriage license. I can't find a divorce decree anywhere." (41:31, Kayla)

• On Recovery:

  • "I'm in the best headspace I've ever been in just from doing this and focusing on me and working out, eating better. I'm so happy I'm trying to do that glow up... I'm securing my bag at this point for myself." (64:40, Kayla)

• On Moving Forward Without Closure:

  • "She won't give me the full truth at this point, and I've had to accept that. My therapist told me it's one of the hardest things, to just accept it. And I remember... she's like, are you going to be able to accept that? And I'm like, no, you get no closure." (55:30, Kayla)

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Segment Timestamps

• 00:44 – Episode Recap & Trigger Warning
• 03:43 – Aaron’s Demand & Health Crisis Claim
• 05:06 – Health Manipulation and the Introduction of Medical Bills
• 09:38 – Entering Caretaker Role, Therapy, and Building a Community
• 13:52 – Accusations, Breakups, and Manipulation after Kayla’s Newfound Friendships
• 17:18 – Sharing Credit Card, Financial Gaslighting
• 19:40 – Kayla Discovers Aaron’s Ongoing Connection to “Ex”-Husband
• 26:30 – New Family Death, Excuses to Cancel Plans
• 39:07 – Kayla’s Investigations: The Doordash Ruse
• 41:33 – Public Record Search: Marriage, Property, and Phone Bills
• 46:39 – Unmasking Fake Divorce Papers
• 57:00 – Confirming the Cancer Lie with Son-in-Law
• 60:59 – Kayla’s Challenges in Trusting Again
• 63:16 – Dry Begging: Manipulative Tactics Explained
• 64:40 – Kayla’s Recovery and Newfound Priorities
• 79:46–82:44 – Hosts Reflect: Kindness Is Not a Weakness, Healing Through Community

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The Hosts’ Reflections

• Kindness Is Not a Weakness:
  Both Mackenzie and Hannah affirm that Kayla’s empathy and willingness to help are strengths, even if exploited.
• How Manipulators Work:
  Insights offered on “dry begging,” trauma bonding, gaslighting, and the erosion of self-trust in abusive relationships.
• The Workplace Power Dynamic:
  Analysis of how workplace hierarchies (Aaron was Kayla’s HR boss) facilitate secrecy and manipulation.
• Importance of Community and Waiting for Healing:
  The hosts commend Kayla for taking time to heal and emphasize the value of personal and mental self-care before re-entering dating.

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Conclusion

Kayla’s story powerfully illustrates the multi-layered dangers of manipulative partners—how emotional, financial, and psychological abuse can be intertwined and invisible until it’s nearly too late. The episode serves as both validation for survivors and a lesson in red flags: isolation, secrecy, “dry begging,” and gaslighting. The hosts close with gratitude for Kayla’s openness and vulnerability, reminding listeners that healing from such relationships is possible—but relies on deliberate self-work, connecting to community, and learning to trust oneself again.

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For more stories or to share your own, contact the hosts via investigatedatingdetectivespodcast.com. If you or someone you know is in an abusive situation, call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-6723.

Transcript

[Hannah]

The following program contains names, places, and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following program is provided for entertainment purposes only, and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances. If you or a loved one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic violence hotline at 1-800-799-6-7233 for support.

[Mackenzie]

Hi, Hannah. Happy Dating Detectives Monday, you guys.

[Hannah]

Hello. Hello. We're back with part two.

[Kayla]

I know you guys are like, oh, finally.

[Hannah]

I've been waiting all freaking week.

[Mackenzie]

But some of y', all, some people actually will not listen to the episode.

[Hannah]

They'll wait until the second week, which is smart. But a lot of you also were, like, smart. Stop apologizing for the two parters. We love them, so thank you. We should all stop apologizing as much as we do.

[Kayla]

I'm the worst. I'm the worst.

[Hannah]

I'm like, all. It's really hard sometimes. I want to have a sorry jar. Like, put a dollar in the sorry jar.

[Mackenzie]

Right?

[Hannah]

We need one.

[Kayla]

Like, sorry, not sorry.

[Mackenzie]

But, no, this, this part two, there's little trigger warning for the suicidal talk. So just let you guys know if you're sensitive to that. It does come up.

[Kayla]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

And, yeah, just mental health in general.

[Mackenzie]

Medical manipulation.

[Hannah]

My favorite comment so far this week was, where's the HR for hr? Like, right? This woman. This woman. If you haven't listened to part one, obviously, go back and listen to part one. But to refresh, we left off when they are now in a relationship. Our guest, Kayla, is now with Aaron. And Aaron just called her and said, I need you to drop everything and drive four hours to be with me tonight because I have to tell you something, but I can't tell you over the phone.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, that's a nightmare for anybody, much less someone with ADHD like me. I would lose it.

[Hannah]

No, I, I, I would not.

[Mackenzie]

Like, don't do that.

[Hannah]

But I think it's interesting. We will talk about it at the end. But Aaron has a very good way of getting her claws deep into Kayla. Like, she really is a good manipulator. And we'll see that even more.

[Kayla]

Yeah.

[Mackenzie]

And thank you for supporting our guest who's telling this story. I know so many of you have been just so supportive, and we're so grateful for that. We're so grateful for you listening and supporting the dating detectives. And just, I just Think the constant encouragement is just so awesome. And we're grateful to our patreoners. If you want to sign up for the Patreon, it's $5 a month for the regular tea. Would regular. I guess it's you get the two bonus episodes in the book club and all the Earth TV club as we're doing one month.

[Hannah]

We're doing Tell me TV show. Everybody watch Tell me live.

[Kayla]

So good. And then also, if you want the

[Mackenzie]

the girlfriend experience, you get the same thing with ad free listening. And so we call that the girlfriend experience. It's only $9 a month. So thank you again to our patreon. Thank you for just listening to our show, for supporting us. We really appreciate you so, so much. And if you have a story of your own that you want to share with us, please, please just send us an email investigatedatingdetectivespodcast.com and we would love to be an ear or a platform for you as well.

[Kayla]

Absolutely.

[Mackenzie]

So shall we go ahead and get into it and get into part two?

[Hannah]

I need to hear the rest from Kayla. She's such a good storyteller.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, let's do it. Let's give Kayla the floor.

[Kayla]

She's like, can't you just find a flight over here tonight? And I'm like, okay, let me see what I can do. So by the time I left work at 7, I didn't get home until almost 9 o'. Clock. And so I'm calling her and I'm like, babe, this isn't gonna work. I'm not gonna be there until 1 o' clock in the morning. Then I'm gonna like, come talk to you. I'm not gonna sleep. I'm gonna be sick as can be tomorrow. I have a big day. There's no way. I'm sorry, but as a responsible adult, I cannot do this.

[Mackenzie]

It's a lot.

[Kayla]

It was. So she gets upset and she's like, it's fine. I'm like, do you want to call and talk to me? So she does call me, but she will not tell me what's going on.

[Hannah]

So sketchy. I can't.

[Kayla]

I agree with you. It was sketchy and it was weird. So then fast forward about a week and a half later, she's finally back and I'm like, okay, let's meet up and talk about this. And so we meet up and she tells me I have a lump on my ovaries and they're not sure what it is. She actually sends me pictures of this big ball on her Ovary and tells me that they think it's cancerous.

[Hannah]

Okay, so that is big news. I understand, but I don't.

[Mackenzie]

I would not have slept if she told me that that night. I'd have been like, girl, you can't just leave me for a week. You're sitting there wondering.

[Kayla]

It was weird. But she is a private person, so

[Mackenzie]

that made sense for her.

[Kayla]

It did. I was like, okay, I can see her keeping this internal. And she's like, that's why I haven't wanted you to meet my kids or anything, because they're going through a lot. They know about this. And I'm like, oh, my God, I'm so sor.

[Mackenzie]

I can understand that.

[Hannah]

How long has she known about this health issue?

[Kayla]

So she had started losing weight in April. She had slowly started losing weight. She wasn't big, but she was thicker. And I like my girls thick. So she was thick and like, she. Thick thick. But she really started slimming down. We would go maybe a month without seeing each other sometimes, and she would drop 20 pounds in a month. Like, you could easily.

[Hannah]

Yeah, something was wrong.

[Kayla]

Very noticeable. And so I was like, oh, something's really wrong. As all this was happening, I'm like, we need to focus on you getting better. So she keeps calling it cancer, but she's telling me it's not really cancer. They think it's a cancerous ball. And because it's in a certain spot, it's, like, really close to her intestines, so they can't remove it or laser it out. They want her to take a drug over the counter. It was a cancer pill is what she called it. Like chemo, but in a pill. And it was $600 a month.

[Mackenzie]

Oral chemotherapy. They work just as powerfully as IV chemo, but can often be taken at home, treating cancers like risk.

[Kayla]

Okay.

[Hannah]

Yeah, I know.

[Kayla]

It was a thing. It started off with she was having a problem with one of her doctor bills. We went to the same obgyn, so it got mailed to her, and there's this little QR code, and it was in her mailbox, and she said it got wet. So she wasn't able to scan the QR code. Well, on the piece of paper, it tells you if you log onto this website, put in your information, you can still get to the same bill. She's like, I can't figure out how to pay this. I keep trying to scan the code, and it's not working, and I'm really stressed out. I don't want this to go to Collections. And I'm like, she just wanted you

[Mackenzie]

to go on and pay it.

[Kayla]

We say that now, but at the time, I'm like, oh, my God, she's got cancer. She's stressed out. She's all stressed out. So I get the bill and log in, and I'm like, I got it.

[Hannah]

She's keeping you at a place where you're helpless in a way.

[Kayla]

Well, and I felt helpless.

[Mackenzie]

That's how you can show your protectiveness or whatever.

[Kayla]

I was trying to show her that we were doing this together, so that was a big part of it.

[Mackenzie]

Alone. That's so sweet.

[Kayla]

Then it became a thing where she was struggling for her medication, and it was six or eight hundred dollars a month, and she was literally like, I'm gonna have to go without it. And I'm like, babe, stop. Between how much money you and I both make together, we will figure it out. I'm like, we got the money. This is your life we're talking about. This isn't like, just stupid drugs. Like, yeah, you're not alone.

[Mackenzie]

I got you.

[Kayla]

Yeah. And that's what it was. Just buy it and give me your credit card at the end of the month, and I'll pay it. Just tell me what you need. We are getting through this. So in this entire time, the only bill I ever actually paid was the one for the OBGYN appointment. I never see another bill. And I. I do see this pill bottle she's carrying around, but that's really it. So she then tells me that it has escalated, and because the pills aren't working, she now has to do radiation, and it's going to be this whole thing. So I'm like, what do you need from me? She basically was acting like it was going to be worse than chemo. And I've never had cancer, so I don't know anything about this stuff other than I've seen family members go through it. And I started doing all this research. She starts her first treatment, and she will not let me be anywhere near her at this point. She's, like, taking long stints of us not seeing each other just because she said she's too busy. She's telling me she has to do radiation five times a week, and she's super nauseous and whatnot. So I start looking stuff up, and I find out that aloe juice is supposed to help with the nausea that's caused from radiation. So I go all over the state, and I buy aloe plants, fresh aloe, and I'm making her aloe Juice.

[Mackenzie]

So sweet.

[Kayla]

There's this wonderful woman. Her name's Lindy, and she created these things called Lindy patches. They're for radiation burns. It's supposed to help because your skin's so sensitive afterwards.

[Mackenzie]

I've heard of those.

[Kayla]

Okay, so they're $20 a pop. I'm buying her seven or eight of them at a time, and I'm telling her every Monday, come see me. I have aloe juice for you, and then I have these patches for you to try to help. So I'm basically putting a little care package together, as much as I can every two weeks for her. That's the only way I know how to help because she won't let me go to these appointments. She won't let me go to her results appointments. She won't let me take her. She won't let me do anything. So we would meet every Monday before I would come into work. I'd meet her at Random shopping Plaza and stuff, and I would basically give her all these things.

[Hannah]

As you're going through this, you're taking this caretaker role. Did you complete completely put aside any of your needs in the relationship? Were fights still happening, or were you, like, all attention is now on this, and that's okay.

[Kayla]

Whatever fight I had, I was not bringing it up with her, like, anything. Like, I had my own stuff. Me and my little brother got into a really heated argument, and it was very bad. It became family drama. And I tried to talk to her about it, and she said, kayla, I don't have time to be there for you right now. I'm fighting cancer. And I'm like, okay, valid. I'm gonna sit here and cry on my own then. So I was trying really bad to just be there for her in whatever capacity I could. And I felt horrible that she was going through it. And not only that, she's gotta still be a mom. She's basically acting like she's superwoman through this whole thing and has no help. So all I kept thinking is, how do I continue to add to her life and not make it worse?

[Hannah]

Wow. Yeah.

[Kayla]

So I end up going into therapy because I am struggling on my own. I am like, I have no support here. We're going weeks without seeing each other outside of that quick little exchange of, here's this. Here's a quick hug and kiss. And she would flinch when I'd hug her. She would act like it was, like, super. Like it was painful hurting her. Yeah, it was just really hard. So I really needed therapy. So I start seeing a Therapist who was wonderful, and she gave me really good advice, and she's like, you need to build a community around yourself. I hear what's going on with you, but you need a community. So you're telling me that all you do every day is you go into work, you go home, and you're focused on this. You are zoned in on this, your partner, and that's good. But you have to have your own community too, because you are slowly taking yourself down a depression realm. And I'm like, absolutely. So I'm very big into sports, so I join a local sports team, like a little rec league. And still to this day, they are my best friends. I make a great group of friends. Is it softball? It's kickball.

[Mackenzie]

But close off because lesbians love the softball. I didn't know. I didn't know. Y' all like kickball too.

[Kayla]

Well, they're actually all straight. That's the crazy part.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, that's so fun.

[Kayla]

Oh, dude. We get drunk and go have a great time.

[Hannah]

That's amazing. So much fun.

[Kayla]

I love it. But they're all straight. But that's important because that comes to the next piece.

[Hannah]

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[Kayla]

So it was my first time really getting to meet these girls outside of playing. So we have our great little group playing, but then we're like, let's do brunch. And they like cowboy shit. I don't listen to country music, but it's like a thing down here. So they're like, let's go to a honky tonk where they do line dancing and riding and all this stuff. So I have a great time. And long story short, I end up getting blacked out. I felt safe with my friends and I believe me and Aaron actually fought really bad that day. And I get a blacked out. And one of my good friends now, she's like, you're just going to come stay at my house. So I just go and crash at her place. Literally, I sleep on her couch. Like she sleeps in her room. My other friend sleeps on a different room because she had three rooms. And then I'm passed out on the couch. I wake up at 2am and I'm like, what the hell happened? Gather my shit. And then I leave and I go home like, I'm fine. At this point. I think we were done with the night. At nine o' clock. We got drunk at brunch. We were one of those girls after brunch, that's what it was. So like by 9 o' clock we were all back at her house, just passed out drunk. So by 2am I'm like, I just want to go to my own bed. So I go home and that next day I'm having a conversation with her and we're making up from the fight from the day before. And I'm like, hey, I'm gonna let you know I got super drunk last night and I didn't stay at my house. I stayed at my new friend's house. But they're straight. Nothing happened. I'm letting you know this is what took place and that's full transparency in

[Mackenzie]

our relationship, which is really great.

[Kayla]

I was just trying to be honest with her and I'm like, I just don't want you to think like anything crazy, but this is what happened. And nothing weird went down. And she goes on A tangent that I cheated on her, that we're done. Breaks up with me, tells me that I am a cheater, that I promised I would never be this person, and I've become all the things that I said I wasn't. And I told her, go check the bar cameras. Go check. You're gonna see that. I was at the bar, and I can remember at a certain point getting so frustrated with her text that I put my phone down and ordered two more shots. That's what you're gonna see. And then you're gonna see me walking out. And she was like, no, no, no. You slept with that girl. And I'm like, I did not sleep with that girl. That girl is still my best friend. And that girl is straight as can be. And I get it. It was a new group of friends. But still, you gotta be secure that if I'm with you, I'm with you.

[Hannah]

Yeah. And it's been a year and a half or more. You've done everything for her. And also, this is the kind of thing like it can come up with a couple, but then you have a conversation about your comfort level with it, and you move on.

[Kayla]

Well, and that's exactly it.

[Hannah]

She doesn't have a reason to be this mad at you.

[Kayla]

Well, yeah. And so it starts off that she's mad because I didn't call her when I was drunk. And I'm like, why would I call you when we were fighting and you were with your kids, and your kids don't know about me, so why am I going to.

[Hannah]

Right. She'd be pissed at you if you did that. Also, doesn't she not have time for anything that you need because she's battling cancer. Exact quote.

[Kayla]

That's exactly it. Literally. And so then when I'm talking about it, I'm like, what would you have been able to do? She's like, I would have just made sure you were safe. And I'm like, okay, but I'm an adult. The same way you're an adult. We know how to handle ourselves. I could have got an Uber. I just had good friends that were there. And she's like, you don't know them. And she breaks up with me. And at this point, I was devastated. She breaks up with me on Sunday. I spend all Sunday crying. I come into work, I'm all puffy, naughty nose and whatnot. But at this point, I'm like, I got shit to do. I'm an adult, and I can't keep colon off work every time we break up. So I go in, but she calls me as soon as I get into work and she's like, you know what? I need you to earn my trust back. But I get it. Even if you did cheat on me, I could understand because I have cancer. Like, we weren't being intimate at this point either. She's going through cancer, so she doesn't want me to see her naked and stuff like that. So I'm like, okay. We kiss, makeup, we're fine. So we probably see each other five or six times between August to October. We do sleep with each other a few times in between there. And when we slept together, I never see a burn on her. There is no mark on her torso, nothing. But she would tell me that she was only comfortable doing it because there was nothing. She wasn't having a flare up. So end of September, beginning of October, she makes a comment about how we should have a credit card, like a joint credit card for trips that we want to go on. And because we were then at this point talking about going on a trip for her birthday, but she was going to be in radiation, so we were going to have to wait until after her birthday. And so as soon as she was done with all of this, we were going to go on a big celebratory trip that she had beat cancer. Answer. So she's like, I want to get us a joint credit card for that. And I'm like, absolutely. Well, it leads into, why don't you just add me to your card and we'll just start using that and then I'll pay on it. And I'm like, that's fine. I don't use it for much anyways. So I added my card around October. I can remember the exact thing that she had ordered. It was from Chewy for Dogs. And she sends me a message and she's like, oh my gosh, I put it on the wrong card. I'm so sorry. And it was a $200 order. And I'm like, why are you apologizing? We said it was a joint card. Yeah, like, it's fine.

[Hannah]

Don't worry.

[Kayla]

It's not a big deal. And she's like, I'm sorry. I've just never had anyone that was that loose with finances with me. Anytime I've partnered with money with someone, my ex husband made me explain every expense. I couldn't even go to Target on my own. And I'm like, I'm not that person. You're an adult. You know how to budget your money. We're both going to Be paying it off. I'm not worried about it. I'm very financially stable. I don't really look at my credit card statements. It just is set for auto pay, the statement balance and that's that.

[Mackenzie]

Oh no.

[Kayla]

Yes. So November comes and I get my statement for October and it's $5,000, which is the highest credit card bill I've ever had. I look back and I see that she's putting 4 to $500 of groceries. And I just pay it. So I don't say anything. And my thought process here is, okay, she's struggling and maybe that's what it is. So I message her about it and she's like, I was struggling with groceries, so I put them on there, but I'll pay it off. And I'm like, okay, that's fine. November comes, same thing. It was 200 every week, 300, 600. And now we're at the end of November and we're fighting a bunch. December comes and we're talking about Christmas together and everything. She's asking me if I want to get stuff for her kids because she wants to introduce me to a kid.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, sure she does.

[Kayla]

And like, I'm gonna bless.

[Mackenzie]

Okay.

[Kayla]

She tells me we're gonna do this big cookie bake at her house with the kids and they're gonna get you something and if you wanna get them something, you can. And I'm like, if that's the case, let's do Christmas together. I know you're struggling, so let me get a few things for them that are on their wish list and we'll go from there. We end up doing our own Christmas beforehand. And when we do our own Christmas, it's great and everything. And while we're there, she was like, are you gonna wrap the gifts? And I'm like, yeah, I'm gonna wrap em, why wouldn't I? I'm gonna give them to them, you know what I mean? So that should have been a red flag. But it wasn't. She brought that up. And then fast forward, we have the greatest time at this place. But she keeps bringing up that ex boyfriend, Blake. So she's bringing him up in like random conversations, literally out of nowhere, out of left field. I have not heard about this gentleman since all the way back when she said that he found out that she was gay and was calling her a bunch of lesbian.

[Hannah]

So is she saying things negative about him or is she just like, oh, Blake used to do that? Ahahaha.

[Kayla]

No, she talked to him and found out that he's Married now to this woman and that the girlfriend has sent her their wedding Pinterest board and all this other stuff. And I'm like, what? Why do you care? But we have a great time. We go to this nice steakhouse inside of the resort. We buy like multiple bottles of wine. We're having a great time and we're celebrating Christmas together. So we go back and everything's good. And it's a week before Christmas. I'm driving around to grab my own groceries and stuff, and I'm in a Trader Joe's parking lot and I see her going out with her ex husband driving the car.

[Hannah]

Oh, no.

[Kayla]

What? So what? Strap in. She's in a light blue BMW at this point, and she drives a dark blue BMW. This light blue BMW has four doors. And I know it's not her car. So I text her and I'm like, you were at Trader Joe's. And she goes, stalker. And I respond back, your ex husband was driving. You just told me you were at Walmart getting X, Y and Z for your kids. She responds back, this is Mia's boyfriend. This is his car. And if you didn't notice, Mia was in the backseat crying because we're taking her boyfriend's car to get the windows tinted. And I'm like, pause. That still doesn't make sense because you would have been in two separate cars. One of you would have been picking the other up. So how did you end up both together in the boyfriend's car? Like, that doesn't. Two plus two does not equal four. This is not. This is not.

[Hannah]

Are you texting? Are you texting or talking on the phone?

[Kayla]

Oh, yeah, I'm texting because when I'm calling off the phone. So I'm livid at this point all over again. And I break up with her. I'm like, listen, I know for a fact that you're lying to me. There's no way that this is true. You've played me like a fiddle long enough. I'm done. So she is blowing up my phone and she's like, it's not like I was fucking him in the middle of the parking lot. She gets mad at me. She's like, could you see us doing anything in that car? No. Did I look like I was happy? No. It's because we just fought. We were coming back from picking up the window tinted car. My oldest daughter took the other car and drove it home. I got in the car of Mia's boyfriends with her father and Mia, because he was berating her And I was trying to, like, fix it and all this other stuff.

[Hannah]

Why does she need to lie about this? Whatever the lie is, it still doesn't make sense. She told you she was at Walmart?

[Kayla]

That's the whole thing. She was saying she was doing her final Christmas shopping and I'm just grabbing groceries for the rest of the week. She was just blowing up my phone to the point where I shut my phone off and just don't text her back. I'm done. I'm pissed. So I put my phone down and I'm not answering it. Well, finally I pick it back up around 9 or 10pm that night. And she's like, I'm gonna come over tomorrow. If you're there, cool. If not, I'm just coming over to talk to you and explain what happened. So she literally just shows up at,

[Hannah]

like, 10:00am Were you like, there's a world in which we could get back together or were you totally out?

[Kayla]

There was a world in which we could get back together. If she could make me believe this crazy story. And she does.

[Hannah]

Of course she does.

[Kayla]

She makes me believe this story because

[Hannah]

they're good at what they do.

[Mackenzie]

So what'd she say when she came over?

[Kayla]

She tells me that they got into this big fight that he was berating Mia about having a boyfriend. He had no idea that she had a boyfriend. She came back from Walmart and walked into this big fight because he was coming to pick up Mia to help her with some Christmas gift for Aaron. And basically, it's like her dad called her and said that it was like World War three going in her house, and she had to come and defuse the situation. And part of defusing the situation was getting her to drop the car off and meet the boyfriend. And then they all ended up in the car back together because he was berating her at this lunch meet and greet while they were dropping the car off to get the window tint.

[Mackenzie]

This a wild ride. My head is spinning.

[Kayla]

It was such an elaborate story that I was like, okay, well, again, we kiss and make up. We just talk that Sunday. And while she's there, she's like, I'm gonna take the gifts with me today because I want to make the Christmas tree look full. I said, absolutely not. Because I did the same thing where I did very thoughtful gifts again. And I'm like, no, I want to give them to the girls because I want them to that these came from me. I put a lot of thought into these. And she gets all mad, and she's like, I was just trying to make my Christmas tree look full because, you know, I'm struggling with money this year and I couldn't make the Christmas tree full. So this is going to be the worst Christmas they've had and this is going to be the last Christmas they have with me, possibly because I could be dying of cancer.

[Mackenzie]

Wow.

[Hannah]

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[Kayla]

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[Hannah]

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[Kayla]

So I end up feeling horrible and I'm like, go ahead, take the gifts. And she's like, you're coming over. I'm not gonna let em open them without you being there. So I let her walk off with the gifts. Well, the cookie exchange was supposed to happen on the 23rd. But then she tells me it gets moved to the 26th because one of the girl's friends had to work and they needed to be at this thing. And I'm like, okay, that's fine. So I get a really nice two weeks off around Christmas time for work. So I was originally gonna go home and spend it with family because this would have been my second year of spending Christmas alone, and I didn't wanna do that. So I actually stayed in town to meet her kids. So the 26th comes and she texts me that night before saying how excited she is for me to meet her children that next day. And I wake up the next morning and I am on cloud nine. I have my whole day planned. I'm gonna go get coffee because I'm off work. I'm gonna go grab breakfast. I'm gonna go get my hair done because I wanna look perfect for when I meet her kids. I've picked out my outfit. I text her when I wake up and I'm like, hey, good morning, beautiful. So excited to see you later today. Just let me know, is six o' clock still the right time? Let me know if you want me to bring anything over. I hear nothing. Crickets. 10 o' clock comes around and she says, we need to talk. And I'm like, oh, boy, what's going on? And so she's like, when you have a moment, call me. And I'm like, I have a moment.

[Mackenzie]

I have a moment right now.

[Hannah]

Right now.

[Kayla]

Yeah. I pick up the phone and call her and she's crying and she's like, can you come get me from work? I need you to come get me from work because my sister's brother's sister.

[Hannah]

I was gonna say, who died.

[Kayla]

My sister's husband's sister died.

[Mackenzie]

My sister's husband's sister.

[Hannah]

Sister in law.

[Mackenzie]

Wait, so my sister's sister in law. Hold on, I gotta get my pencil.

[Kayla]

Yes.

[Hannah]

I knew someone was gonna die.

[Kayla]

So her brother in law's sister. Brother in law's sister.

[Mackenzie]

Okay.

[Hannah]

It's the Kayla curse. Kayla, you're killing this. This family.

[Kayla]

Oh, I've killed them all. So I am like, I'm coming to get you. And I am already. Red flag galore. I'm already onto it. So I pick her up and I'm like, what happened? And she's like, she lived alone and she was divorced and tells me this whole story. She didn't have any kids. So the neighbors went and found her, knocked on the door, and then did a wellness check, and they found her and then they called my brother in law and now we have to go claim the body. And I'm like, oh my God. Like why are you in hell? And she's like, her brother in law couldn't fly because of his heart condition. So her sister and brother in law were going to have to drive up. But someone had to go claim the body immediately. And that had to be her because she was so close to his family as well. So does she get to pick her panties too? That part doesn't come up. But there's some other fun parts that come up with this one. So I pick her up from work and I'm grilling her. I'm like, so when's your flight? And she's like, my flight's tonight at 5:00'.

[Hannah]

Clock.

[Kayla]

And I'm like, okay, it's 11:00 clock going on 12. I'm like, don't you need to go home and pack? And she's like, no, my oldest is packing for me and gonna bring it and bring it to work for me. And she's sobbing the whole time. And I'm like, you didn't even know this woman. She's like, I just feel so bad cause he lost his mom and now he lost his sister. And I'm like, I still am not understanding. There's nobody else that can go, what are your kids think? Your kids had plans tonight. And she's like, they're fine. They already know we're canceling them. But I'm like, where's your car going? Are you leaving your car at work? And she's like, no, I'm going to park it at my sister's. And I'm like, so how are you getting to the airport then? And I'm like, do you want me to take you to the airport? And she's like, no, my sister is going to take me. Long story short, I have grilled her and I have figured out the plan. She is leaving that day at 5 and she's not going to land until midnight. And then when she gets there, she's going to text me and then she's not coming back for two more days. So because I am from the north and I know that back in the day they used to not be able to bury bodies when the ground was frozen. And it is December, mind you, it has to be way negative zero for them to not do that now. And still at this point they have machines that will still get through the dirt and can penetrate. I plant the seed with her because I know she's lying. I'm like, I hope they can bury the body because it's below freezing, so you won't be able to bury the body. So she tells me she's only gonna be there for two days. And while she's up there, she's texting me, and I'm like, when are you coming back? Because she was supposed to come back that Sunday, and she told me I could pick her up from the airport because, again, I was skeptical and I wanted proof that this is what she was doing. She tells me she's not going to be back that Sunday. It's actually going to take a few more days because the ground is frozen and they can't bury the body.

[Mackenzie]

She took the bait.

[Kayla]

She did. Now, I probably screwed myself a little bit on this one, because when she does this, I have a complete. Another spiral, complete, another breakdown. I know she's lying to me at this point. Oh, I get on a call with my therapist, and my therapist is like, sweetie, I have been with you on this roller coaster for a while. I think she's lying to you. And I get off the call with her, and I kid you not, I think I was in complete and utter shock. I was numb and could not feel a thing. And I had a mental breakdown at this point to where as soon as I started feeling something, I was sobbing on the kitchen floor uncontrollably for 24 hours. I am devastated because I'm like, oh, my God, she is lying to me. I then start calling her, telling her, I know you're lying. Send me the obituary. She sends me this woman's name, and I look it up all over the place. There's no obituary out there to be had. I look everywhere. So again, I'm just sobbing, can't control it. And she starts telling me, you're crazy. You're crazy. You're crazy. You've lost it. How could you think after this long that I would lie to you? Like, I have cancer? Do you think I've lied about my whole life? Like, what is going on?

[Hannah]

Yes, we do.

[Kayla]

And I am just like, I can't believe you would do this to me. So she tells me that she really thinks that I need help and that I'm having delusion that what I'm seeing is not there, that I am completely crazy. And I'm like, no way. So she sends me a sticky note picture, saying, the only thing that matters is us. Wrote it, did this, and sends it to me. She's holding us. The only thing that matters is usually

[Hannah]

A sticky note in her hand holding

[Mackenzie]

up a post it note.

[Kayla]

Correct. So she was supposed to come back Sunday. This is now Monday. So I'm still off work. But she would have had to go back to work because I used to work there. I know her job doesn't let them take that time off. So I sit back and at that exact moment, I'm like, she's still fucking lying to me. She would rather make me believe I'm crazy than just admit it. I'm like, who the fuck has a sticky note in this car? Like, in other words, I was gonna say, who the fuck carries sticky notes when they're traveling? Like, truthfully, I'm sorry, do you carry sticky. Do either of you carry sticky notes when you travel? So that's exactly where my head goes. And I'm like, she's at work. So what do I do? I drive down and I go past her job, and what do you know? Her fucking car is parked. Cause she always parks right in front in this little area of the building. And she's parked right there. And I drive by and I text her, I cannot fucking believe you would still lie to me. And that you would tell me I'm crazy, hearing how upset and broken I am. She then doubles down and tells me I am still crazy. That that is not her that drove the car there. It is her oldest daughter. And her oldest daughter is interning over winter break to help out while she's gone. And that the reason. That. The reason her car is there is because they were going to tow it at her sister's hoa. She's like, you really need to see someone. I really think you're having mental.

[Mackenzie]

Stop for a moment. I just. This reminds me of a shirt I saw. It said, gaslighting is not real.

[Kayla]

You're just crazy. 100%. Oh, 100% is exactly what it was. So the side note of this story is my mom actually has struggled with psychotic delusions before. And Aaron knew this.

[Mackenzie]

So you thought. You thought you were going crazy then.

[Kayla]

For sure, she's telling me that, hey, you're starting to have psychotic delusions. You need to see someone because maybe it's hereditary. Maybe it's in your DNA. So I get online and I get in to see a psychiatrist the next day and I tell them everything. And Aaron tells me, I'll get on the call with your psychiatrist if I need to. And I will let them know everything that I'm saying is true. I will show them I am real. I will tell them what is going on and make sure that they know that what is happening, because I genuinely think that you are really having. No, no, no, no.

[Hannah]

That is so wild.

[Kayla]

I'm like, if you're willing to do that, I must be crazy. So I see the psychiatrist, and the psychiatrist is like, I think you're bipolar, and I think you're having bipolar delusions, which. Didn't know that was a thing, but it can be. So they put me on a bunch of medication.

[Mackenzie]

Wait, so they. How did they determine. Like, you told them the whole story, and they said, yeah, you're crazy.

[Kayla]

Yeah. They said, basically, you could be having bipolar delusions.

[Mackenzie]

They didn't stop to think, oh, maybe she's lying to you. Their first thing was, you're crazy.

[Kayla]

That was the first thing. It was never that she was lying. In their defense, I'm coming to them, telling them what's happening. They haven't been with me. Like, the other psychiatrist was.

[Mackenzie]

Right.

[Kayla]

They're hearing this. And then I'm showing them text messages where I'm like, here. She's saying that she'll get on the phone with you. And I remember my psychiatrist telling me this. She said, either you've been undiagnosed bipolar your entire life, or this woman is completely evil. She's like, okay, so they did offer both. They. She did. And she's like, do you trust this person? And I'm like, I have to trust her. We're supposed to build a life together. She was talking about me moving in with her. Her kids are about to move out. She's talking to me about her tuxedo bathroom and how I'm gonna have the second vanity in her bathroom. There's no way she's lying to me and is okay with me going through this.

[Mackenzie]

So it must be you that's crazy.

[Kayla]

The psychiatrist is like, if you truly trust her and believe that, then I genuinely believe you are having bipolar delusions. And I was so upset and stressed out that I don't know if you've ever had so much anxiety that you keep yourself up all night, like, you cannot sleep. Like, you almost, like, go into, like, a manic episode almost, where you're almost shaking and hyperventilating because you're having so much anxiety. That's what I was dealing with at that point. So I cannot blame the doctor at all for anything that they did. I also start seeing a new psychiatrist. And about week three of me seeing this new psychiatrist, she was like, I don't think that she's being honest with you.

[Mackenzie]

How did they determine that do you

[Kayla]

know, just from me telling them the whole story.

[Hannah]

What is the extent of the medication?

[Kayla]

So I was on three different medications at this point. I was on a mood stabilizer, I was on an antipsychotic, and then I was on a sleeping medication that you

[Mackenzie]

probably didn't even need.

[Kayla]

No, I can confirm that I did not need any of them. I'm not on any of them.

[Hannah]

How did they affect you?

[Kayla]

I was a complete nutter zombie. If I did take the sleeping medication, I would fall asleep. If I took it at 7 o', clock, I would be out until 7 o' clock the next day. Trying to get up for work was impossible. I was also in a really deep place. I've listened to your guys podcast a lot and I don't know that a lot of people talk about how bad your mental health just drops, but I was to the point where I was considering committing suicide and I was gonna go check myself into an inpatient clinic and basically had to tell them, I can't do that because if I go and do that, I'm going to lose my job. And if I lose my job, there is. I will. There is nothing left. I am here reaching out for help because I'm at my. What's in. I don't know how to go up.

[Mackenzie]

Kayla, I'm so sorry. That's. That's awful.

[Kayla]

It was really the point where you

[Mackenzie]

wanted to take your own life. That's how crazy you felt.

[Kayla]

I genuinely felt crazy. And she's still telling me like tooth and nail that she is not lying to me and that I'm crazy. My friends are telling me I'm not crazy. I start building my relationship back with my mom and my stepdad. And my mom was about to come fly down and spend time with me just to try to help me get stable. And my stepdad's in the background. He's like, you're not crazy. That girl's crazy. Aaron is the reason that this is happening. And so my therapist, because I'm trying to distort what's real and what's fake in my mind, which now we know what it is. Hindsight 20 20. But she tells me that what you really need to do is you have to go prove everything to yourself. If you see it, you know it's real. Stop letting your mind trick you and go prove things to yourself. So I'm just thinking she's still with her ex husband or that her and her ex husband.

[Mackenzie]

That's what I'm thinking.

[Kayla]

Yeah, that's all I keep thinking, because I'm like, why did I see them in that car together? Why is she canceling on me all the time? It all starts adding up and it's all flooding in my head at this point. Every red flag, they're all flooding in at the same time. And I am having a breakdown because I had worse than rose colored glasses on. This woman walked on water to me. And so from the moment you met her, she.

[Hannah]

She was on a pedestal, pretty much.

[Kayla]

And so I'm talking to my friends one night and they're like, you need to prove it to yourself too. My one friend love her to death, but she is the toxic friend that's like, I will give you my car. We'll go ride in that car together and go find out. We'll go knock on the door. You want me to knock on the door? I'll knock on the door for you. And I'm like, no, no. This is my journey. I need to do it on my own.

[Hannah]

This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. I've been feeling a little bit of the compare and despair vibe recently, where you look at people around you, especially around Valentine's Day. I see a lot of people comparing themselves to the beautiful relationships they see on Instagram. But we're all on our own journey, baby. And you know what made me feel a lot more comfortable with that? Talking to my therapist about it. I look at therapy sometimes as a place to unload. It's like a consistent place to release what feels really heavy. And even just talking about it out loud makes me feel lighter as I go into the next week. So even if you're not somebody who's coming in with an intense issue, sometimes the best sessions are the ones where you're like, I don't know what I need to talk about today. And having a consistent relationship with a therapist is truly game changing, not only for you, but all the other people in your life. Better help therapists make it really, really easy to start this therapy journey. I love how accessible it is. It's affordable and accessible and it's flexible. I have people in my life who never went to therapy because they didn't think they could work it into their schedule. Better help change that. You answer a short questionnaire that helps identify your needs. And they have over 12 years of experience to match with a therapist. And if you're not happy with the match, you can switch to a different therapist at any time because they have a lot of recommendations. Over 30,000 therapists available. Actually, it's the World's largest online therapy platform. So you will definitely find somebody who meets not only your schedule, but your needs and your specifics, the expertise you want to talk through. And you can often. I mean, I've done sessions on a Saturday in the morning. Like you could do them kind of all over the place if you've. If you identify with what I'm saying and you feel a little down or insecure. Therapy is a really great place to talk through that. I think you should check out betterhelp, sign up and get 10% [e-mail] TDD that's betterhelp.com TDD.

[Kayla]

So this is where I should get a degree in PI ing. Because if that's. You got chills.

[Mackenzie]

I just got chills. Go, go talk.

[Kayla]

So I was like, okay, she's in a gated community. How do I get in here? So I'm like, all right, I'm going to pretend I'm a doordash driver. And so I get on my phone and I look up her address and I look up the deeds in her neighborhood and I find out the deed that's in the neighborhood that is near her. And I get their name. And so I drive up to the gate, I go get Taco Bell, I ask them for a sticker and I put it on, like how doordash does. And I go up to the thing and I have to give my ID and everything. And he's like, what are you here for? And I'm like, I'm here for John Smith. And they, they live in this house. And I'm here for Doordash. And he's like, oh, that's weird. Usually they call it in. I'm like, I don't know. Do you want to see it? So I pull up Uber on my phone and I just flash it at him. He's like, no, no, no, just go in. I shut off all my lights and everything because it's 10 o' clock at night and I don't want to wake anybody up by having headlights flash in their house. So I drive by her house and I see her blue car, the blue car I saw her in and then her two kids cars.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, so when you drove by the house, was there a light bulb that went off when you saw the cars?

[Kayla]

Oh, absolutely. So when I saw the four cars and I saw that car that they had been in prior at that Trader Joe's, I was like, oh, my God. Her husband lives there. They're living together. They're 100% there together. That's their home. He's there. At this point, I'm having a small anxiety attack. And so I flip it around, keep my lights off, and I drive out of it there. I get pulled over for not having my lights on, and I'm having a small little breakdown. Super nice cop, he lets me go. He just tells me to calm down before I get on the road.

[Mackenzie]

Did you tell him? I'm.

[Kayla]

He was like, are you okay? And I'm like, I just found out that my partner of two years is married. Or their ex husband lives with him. I don't know what the story is. And he's like, please turn your lights on. And he's like, can we turn your lights on? And I need you to calm yourself down in this car.

[Hannah]

Perfect time to have Taco Bell, right?

[Kayla]

So he got another call, and he's like, I have to go. Cause there is an emergency. But you have to promise me you're not gonna get back in the car like this. And you need to calm down. I'm like, yeah, absolutely. If he ever listens to this, just. Thank you for being nice. I needed that that night. So I go home and I get on my phone and I'm like, you know what? Fuck you. You're not getting out of this. So I look up the deed to her house. I'm like, my dumb ass should have just looked up the deed to her house when I was looking up the deed of the house in the neighborhood near her.

[Mackenzie]

But it's fine. This is fine.

[Kayla]

No, now I'm getting smart. So I look up the deed to her house. Her ex husband's name is on the deed to her house. I look up voter registrations. Her ex husband's voter registration is registered to that house. And it was registered as early as 2024 with the most recent presidential election. I then look him up, and I find out that all of his addresses show that he lives at that house. I look up his job. It shows that he lives there on his little profiles. God. I then go digging for their marriage license. I find their marriage license. Guess what? I can't find a divorce decree anywhere. Can't find anything on a divorce. However, I will say finding a divorce is very hard because you have to know which state, county, and all of that stuff it's in. I look up every county in all of our state and the states that I know she's been in before. And then she tried to tell me that they got married in Vegas and divorced in Vegas because their marriage license was in Vegas. I went and looked up every county in Vegas for marriage and divorce decrees. Can't find it.

[Mackenzie]

Y', all this all on the Google machine, FYI. And if you look hard enough and spend enough time, you can do it. Kayla will tell you, oh you can.

[Kayla]

So there's app. If you pay for it, you can look up someone's number or whatnot. So I pay to do that and I start looking up all the phone numbers she's ever texted me from and I find out that they are on the same phone plan. Well then I text her and I'm like, you need to call me as soon as you wake up in the morning. She calls me at 6am and I'm like, were you ever gonna tell me that you guys own the house together? By the way, I drove by your house last night and saw all four cars out there. So I know damn well he was there and I know damn well that's his car. She goes, kayla, what did you do? What did you do? My, my alarm systems shut off. Did you break into my house last night? And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm like, you're not doing that. First and foremost, there are two ring doorbell cameras on both of your neighbors houses. Feel free to check those because you're going to see my car drive past your house and then right back out. And furthermore, I have proof that I was in your neighborhood for less than three minutes. So there is no way I even got out of my car. And if you can find video evidence, please let me know.

[Mackenzie]

Don't fuck with Kayla.

[Kayla]

She bring a receipt? I was lady at this point. So then I'm like, what's the store in the car? Like why is the car there if that's not him? She's like, mia's boyfriend ended up staying the night last night and I had no idea. And he got kicked out of his house. And I was like, well, let me see where that car is registered. So if you don't know this, you can go on Progressive's website and pretend like you're going to get a quote and just have to type in the address to the house and it tells you every car that's registered.

[Hannah]

No. Mackenzie says getting a plate is a good thing to do if you're going on a date with someone. It gives you so much access.

[Kayla]

Well, I didn't get the plate, but I knew what kind of car I was looking for and I knew the address. So all I had to do was figure out where that car was. Registered. And all four of those cars were registered to that house. So now the story has changed because I confront her with that evidence, and she's like, no, no, no, no, no. The reason that that car is there is because Mia's boyfriend is buying it off of my ex husband. It's actually his car. And I'm like, oh, so now it's his car? No, no, no, you're lying. And I keep telling her, you're lying, and I'm not crazy. So then I go to my psychiatrist, and I give my psychiatrist all this information. My psychiatrist is like, you're not crazy, sweetie. You need to get off of this medication. It was giving me all kinds of side effects. I was breaking out in hives. I had all kinds of stuff going on because I was on this stuff. She cuts it all off. And then finally Aaron asks me, can we just talk? I need to tell you the whole story. And I'm like, absolutely. I'm ready to hear what has been going on for the last few years. And so I go meet her at a coffee shop, and she tells me that he has been beating her for the last however many years. And that's the reason behind this. I don't know if that's true. I really don't. But she tells me that he's been beating her, that she really had cancer. But that's the story. And I'm like, okay, so how do I help you get out?

[Hannah]

So you believe her when she says this?

[Kayla]

Correct. And she tells me that he convinced her that they were divorced, he gave her divorce papers, and that she's gonna send them to me. But she lets him back in the house because she's afraid that he's gonna hurt the kids. I'm like, if this is a domestic violence situation, then I'm gonna help you get out of this. I told her we're not together. You've been lying to me. I had no business being in this. But I'm like, I love you, and I'm gonna help you get out of it. And then if we have any future together, it'll be after you have healed and I have healed and we can trust each other again. That's where it's at. I just wanna be your friend while we get you out.

[Hannah]

Wow.

[Kayla]

So she sends me the divorce papers that he sent her. And I want you to know that in hr, we deal with a lot of legal documents. I have seen multiple divorce degrees in my time. I have seen a lot of things. She sends this divorce paperwork to me, and I Look at it. And number one, I have my notary stamp. And notary stamps are only good for, like, seven years. The dates didn't match up. It is a seven year license. And this divorce happened way before this notary stamp expires. And I'm like, it was like, beyond so many years. So I was like, number one, this doesn't work. Second part is, it's from Nevada, and it's the 19th jurisdiction in Nevada. If you look it up, there is no 19th jurisdiction.

[Hannah]

Does she say, y' all just don't.

[Mackenzie]

I'm telling you, you can find out. I was just saying this on my social media. I was like, why don't nobody ask me questions? I love that. This is what that.

[Hannah]

Trust but verify. There's nothing wrong with verifying.

[Kayla]

I went deep and I reached out to her and I'm like, did you ever think that these were maybe fake? And she's like, they're not fake. What are you talking about? And I'm like, aaron, those are not real.

[Hannah]

So did you think.

[Kayla]

And she's like, yes, they are.

[Hannah]

Do you think her husband had faked them, or did you think Aaron was faking them?

[Kayla]

I thought Aaron was faking them.

[Hannah]

Right. Okay.

[Kayla]

I'm positive she's faking them. She's not a dumb person like you. You cannot do what we do and be dumb. I'm not trying to be that person. But you really can. So I'm telling her, this is the wildest thing ever. And she's like, he tricked me. And I'm like, that still doesn't make sense because, like, at some point, you would have had to sign documents. She's like, I signed it. And I'm like, okay, but you would have figured it out. All of your stuff is still linked to him. And so then I go on and find businesses that are registered because she's telling me he owns his own business. And I'm like, let me see something. They have a business together that is registered to their home address. So I basically just blow all this stuff up, send it all over to her. And I'm like, there's a problem. You're lying still. And she's like, I'm not lying. He's just this manipulative and has all this control. And I'm like, I'm gonna help you fight this and I'll pay for it. But we're gonna go to a lawyer, and you're gonna tell the lawyer all of this. She keeps telling me she's going to, then tells me, I don't need to be involved in this. And I'm like, okay, we're done. You're done, we're done. And I'll be honest. I was really struggling at this point. Like, really, really struggling. We end up completely breaking up, and my mental health is shit. I get off all of these medications, but my mental health is absolutely still shit. Part of why I wanted to come on was to talk more about this stuff, because I don't know that a lot of people have, but I very much was struggling. I had a lot of suicidal ideations. And when I confirmed that this was all a lie, when I truly had confirmation, and after being strung through all of these webs of lies, and I did try to take my own life, I did survive it. Crazy enough. I ended up running a 5k three days later because I just swept it under the rug and pretended like it never happened.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, my gosh. I'm so sorry.

[Kayla]

It was a super crazy time for me. Afterwards, I reached out to my mom, and my mom came down and actually spent a couple days with me. I did go into really intense therapy afterwards because I was like, I need help. I don't want to feel like this. I actually have a really good life. I've done a lot of really great things. But I felt so alone and so depressed at that point because I felt like I had built my life around this woman that did not exist.

[Hannah]

Thank you for trusting us with this and talking about finding the truth, as relieving as it might seem to be, like, oh, I have truth now I can leave. Like, I'm breaking up with this toxic person. You're right. The aftermath of it, that doesn't. It's not a good thing to find this out. Just because you have the answers doesn't make it better.

[Kayla]

It doesn't solve anything. It tears your life apart when you find that out. I don't necessarily recommend keeping your head buried in the sand, but you have to have a circle around you to keep you alive.

[Hannah]

You can't carry that alone.

[Kayla]

You really can't. And it's crazy because after that, I actually reached out to her and told her, hey, I tried to take my own life. She called me, and I'm like, I want you to understand I need some space from this because I. I need to heal from everything that's going on. And she was like, absolutely, I understand. And the crazy part is, is a month after that, I reached back out and she was trying to get back with me, and I was like, we can see what a friendship would look like, but you have got to be transparent with me. There is no more lies. And within a week, she told me that she was going on a work trip and that she was going to be busy that day. And then she was a dumbass and screenshotted an email, and up in the top, had an Uber ride request and told me where she was going. Because it was like, oh, Uber will be at your destination in a few minutes. Well, I know that she only uses Uber when she's in a certain town and city. I was with her for going on three years, so I knew this. So she's on this work trip, right? And when I see that, I'm like, you're not where you're telling me you are. And I'm like, FaceTiming. I told you what I have just been through. I'm giving you the opportunity for us to just have a friendship, and you can't even be honest with me right now. Like, where are you? What are you doing? So I'm FaceTiming her. I FaceTime her, like, 13 times. She won't answer. I then, because I had worked with her best friend, Paige. I call Paige and I'm like, I know it's been a while, but I need to ask you questions. And I asked Paige if she had any idea about anything that's happened. And she's like, the last time I heard was when Martin called me and told me that you guys were together. And Aaron denied it across the whole organization. It never became more than that. She was like, I never heard more about it. And I'm like, oh, okay. So Blake. Is she still with Blake? She's like, I'm not really sure. She's been keeping that private, but I know she's seeing someone. And I'm like, you know, we've been together for the last three years. And she's like, I had a suspicion, but I wasn't 100%. And she won't talk about it with anyone. But you do know that her and her ex husband live together. And I'm like, it's not her ex husband. They're married still. There is no divorce decree. And she's like, I can't be involved in this. This is my boss still. She may be my best friend and I care about her, but I can't be involved in this. And I'm like, okay, that's fine. So I confront Aaron with all of this, and Aaron's dumb enough to then give me Blake's number and is like, call him. He's going to Tell you, we haven't seen each other. So do we remember the Lake Arrowhead trip where she had to go somewhere for work?

[Mackenzie]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Kayla]

It was for that first year we were together for her birthday when she canceled the second rescheduled trip. Anyways, I call Blake, and I asked him, hey, are you married? And he's like, no, I'm not married. I'm like, are you dating a girl named whatever it was? And he's like, like, no. What are you talking about? And I'm like, when's the last time you saw Aaron? And he's like, when we went to Arrowhead. And I'm like, when was this? And he's like, I don't know. It was a year and a half ago, something like that. And I'm like, oh. And he's like, yeah, we haven't seen each other since then, but we've talked here and there. And it was at that exact moment I realized that, okay, not only is it me, not only is it another guy, but it's also her husband. So there's three of us now that we know of.

[Mackenzie]

That we know of.

[Kayla]

And not only that, what other work trips did she lie about? She clearly was not only sleeping with me, clearly sleeping with her husband and sleeping with Blake. Who else is she having these relationships with? So then I confront her with all of this, and she finally tells me there were multiple other trips that she took, one of which she told me it was for work. And she actually then confessed to me that it was because her current husband pissed her off so bad that she was going down to sleep with his best friend. And she couldn't tell me that?

[Hannah]

No, I'm kidding. She couldn't tell you that. She shouldn't tell anybody that.

[Kayla]

Yes. So she finally starts confessing that she's been lying to me, and she won't fully come out and tell me, but there was somebody other than me. So for the whole two years, not only was she married with two kids, but she had somebody else other than me on the side. After all this happened and whatnot, she was like, I'm gonna prove to you that this is real, that I haven't been lying. So she took me to lunch with her oldest daughter, and while we were at lunch with her oldest daughter, I was holding her hand under the table, and her daughter's sitting there like, wait, so did.

[Hannah]

What did the oldest daughter say?

[Kayla]

What is going on?

[Hannah]

What is the point of having you finally meet this daughter? She's saying, I want you to know I was telling the truth. But she's also saying, actually, I was cheating on you the whole time.

[Kayla]

Pretty much. It was so chaotic at the end that there was just a new story every week. And it was like, first she was being abused, then it was that life was just too chaotic. And then it was that he was so controlling. And then it was that they never got divorced. It was always a new story. So toward the end, it was, well, I wanna try to start something real with you, so I'm gonna put you in front of my daughter. And I'm like, dude, I. We're not there. I'm just trying to be here for you as a friend. I'm in a better place. It's been about a month now that I've healed a little bit, and I'm still healing. I can't have you continue to lie to me and be in my life. And so she puts me in front of her oldest. And her oldest had no idea what was going on. So much so that when we went to leave, Aaron gave me a half hug and acted like I was like an old woman.

[Hannah]

Wait, so what did you talk about?

[Kayla]

Hear me out. So I'm very big on. I'm not gonna bring her kids. Any of that's part of the thing. Yeah, I agree. I would not be anonymous if it wasn't for her kids. Her kids are 19 and 21 right now. Cause this is about a year after all of this has happened. And I'm sure they know the kind of person their mom is, but I'm not gonna broadcast them and bring them into the drama of their mom at worst.

[Hannah]

Did you say anything about, I know you like this soccer team or whatever it was that you knew about them. Like, you knew a lot about these kids. And she's probably like, why does she know so much about me?

[Kayla]

Oh, absolutely. And you could tell she was visibly uncomfortable, so I stopped. It was like, oh, my God. She has no idea why I'm here. She has no idea that me and her mom have been seeing each other. She then called me three or four days afterwards, and she had her youngest daughter in the car with her. And she had me on speakerphone, and she's calling me babe. And her youngest had done something good. And she's like, we just wanted to call you and tell you. And her youngest loves chocolate milkshakes. So I made a comment like, oh, my God, I'll send you a chocolate milkshake. And she's like, how do you know I like that?

[Hannah]

Also, why did they want to call and Tell you about this accomplishment.

[Kayla]

This is total speculation, but I'm positive she told these kids that I was obsessed with her. Like, I was a mentee of hers, and she was just trying to take me under her wing and I didn't have a family or something. She was trying to make me feel included because it just started getting weirder and weirder with these conversations with her kids to where I cut it off, and I'm like, we're done. She will not give me the full truth at this point, and I've had to accept that. My therapist told me it's one of the hardest things, to just accept it. And I remember when I first started seeing her, she's like, are you going to be able to accept that? And I'm like, no, you get no closure.

[Mackenzie]

It's so.

[Hannah]

Well, I was going to ask.

[Kayla]

It's none.

[Hannah]

And, like, why were you continuing to talk to her, meet with her daughter and stuff? But that feels like is the answer. It's like you want to get to the bottom of it.

[Kayla]

I still do. I so badly just want to understand. I want answers as to what exactly happened. I know she was married. I know all of this. But why would you do that to somebody? It's just wild. She won't give me answers. We don't talk. I did contact a lawyer, and because I had all of the text and proof, I was able to get some of my money.

[Hannah]

Alicia, tell us about that.

[Kayla]

Yeah, I did contact them, and I had a free consult with them, and they gave me their rates and everything, and they were ready to pursue action. But he told me, if you can get her to pay you back, you're gonna save yourself a lot of money. Because realistically, when you have to do civil cases like this, you end up having to pay a shit ton of money just to get even a fraction. So really, all I wanted was the $10,000 back. I was stupid for putting her on my credit card. I know that I should have never done that. I was stupid for doing a lot of what I did, and.

[Mackenzie]

But they said, you can't get that back, right? Because I can't allowed it.

[Kayla]

Correct. The only thing I could do was get back the loan because it was explicitly stated that she would pay it back. And it was through text messages, and I had proof of how it was wired to her and everything else. So when I went to the attorney, he was like, listen, it's probably Gonna cost you $3,500. So really, you're just gonna recoup 65? It's better than nothing. That's what I said. I was like, it's for the principal. Excuse my language, but it was for the fucking principal. At this point, I was pissed. Yeah.

[Hannah]

Did she have cancer?

[Kayla]

Unfortunately, her eventual son in law actually works for my company because I helped get him a job.

[Hannah]

Oh.

[Kayla]

So whenever he sees me, he has to come talk to me for like hours and hours and tell me all about his life. So I did at one point ask him and he was like, what cancer?

[Hannah]

Okay, so there's that.

[Kayla]

He was like, what are you talking about? And I was like, oh, I must have heard wrong. I heard it from work because I don't want to bring her kids into it.

[Hannah]

I get it.

[Kayla]

So I always have to cover it up. It's crazy because I could blow up her life, but I won't. I don't want to do that to someone else because number one, that's bad karma and number two, her kids don't deserve that. I would never want to know that about my mom. So one of my healing journeys is I now have a small little guy, four Pauls. And he is my whole world. He gives me more love than I ever will need from any other person.

[Mackenzie]

I want to see.

[Hannah]

Oh, let's see. Oh, hi. Wait, look at his new ears.

[Kayla]

He's perfect. So right after I had tried to commit suicide, when we were talking again, I had to walk him and it took me an extra three hours to respond to her. And I was playing with him and doing stuff with him and she got super upset with me that I wasn't responding quickly. And I'm like, dude, I have another person in my life now. Or I have another being.

[Hannah]

No, it's a person.

[Kayla]

There are people told me it. Is there people? She told me that her ex husband killed her dog, that he poisoned it again. Dumbass sends me a picture three days later of this dog, the same dog that her ex husband killed off while she was doing laundry. She's like, look at what? She's getting sloppy with it. Of all the things you send me a picture of the dog that you just said died.

[Hannah]

I mean, I don't think any of those people or bunnies or dogs died. I don't think any of them existed. Maybe. Or if they did, the way she lied in the way was so intricate. Is fascinating. She should take a creative writing class.

[Kayla]

Oh boy. I just hope that she gets the help she needs. At this point, I genuinely think she's battling her own demons. And I'm a big believer of she probably has been through trauma that has made her this way. But you either become the monsters that created you, or you learn from them. And I genuinely believe she became them instead of learning from them. And I'm choosing to learn from it and never be the person she was. I can't understand why she would do something. And I read a quote a while back that it's like you can't understand it because you're not capable of it.

[Hannah]

Oh, that's so good. I think that's a lot of this podcast, because half of it is the why behind everybody's decision making. And we've talked to some experts that are, like, ruminating on that question of why they do this is very human, but it's not entirely helpful because at the end of the day, they did it. And you have to just focus on the impact of the behavior because you never will understand the why is trying to justify it so that we can live with it more and we never will be able to justify it.

[Kayla]

And that's just it. You're correct. And I've listened to the ones with the experts that are on here, and they're so right. And hearing everyone else's story, it's been so healing to me. Like, I know everyone says that, but it's so true.

[Mackenzie]

Less alone. Like your therapist said, you need to surround yourself with a community.

[Kayla]

Yes, 100%.

[Mackenzie]

I'm really glad you said that, because when people share their story the way you're sharing yours just so vulnerably, and even the scary parts and the not nice parts and the parts where you felt crazy and you wanted to take your life, that's really vulnerable to share. Thank you for sharing, by the way.

[Hannah]

Thank you so much for sharing.

[Kayla]

It's one of the reasons I wanted to come on, because I hear everybody talk about how bad it gets, but I don't hear a lot of people talking about how bad your mental health gets with this stuff. And it's like, yeah, it sucks financially, but I'm positive I'm not alone in saying that. There are probably tons of others that have been on here that were. At that same point, I was listening to the Bachelor episode, and he was talking about how he got to a depressive episode where he literally considered, can I even go on? And that's absolutely. Sometimes how it happens. You just hit this point of, what's the point? You just put your whole life into someone else's hands, and you feel like

[Hannah]

it's shattered and gone and rebuilding. Sounds exhausting.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, exhausting. And also Kayla, can you speak. Speak to how it feels when you believed this person for so long that not only can I not trust anybody else right now, but it's almost like you can't even trust yourself. And that, for me, feels really big. Is that something that you experience?

[Kayla]

Oh, 100%. I'm still there. I'll be honest. It's a year out, and I'm not dating. As soon as anyone, like, starts showing any kind of interest in me, I'm like, ooh, I don't like this. Anytime I'm having a conversation with someone, I'm like, you're probably. And it's so unfair to other people. So I continue to tell everyone I'm just not interested. I'm literally just focused on me and my dog and my job, and my career has skyrocketed since my dog is my world. I've had him for going on a year now, and I love him more than my whole world. And you're correct. I don't trust myself. And I think that I am so terrified to get back into something where this could ever happen again. Everyone on here talks about how smart they are. I'm like, I even saw the red flags as they were happening and tried to investigate them. Them. But these people are so good, and they are.

[Mackenzie]

They are so good.

[Kayla]

I feel like they're parasites of the human race because they are feeding off of the things that other people have to offer. And it's so awful to have to go through something like this. And it's heartbreaking to hear so many people have experienced this.

[Hannah]

I agree.

[Mackenzie]

And I don't think people realize how badly you can fuck with someone's head.

[Kayla]

I was sending her screenshots of my doctor's visits, showing her that I was trying to get help because she told me at one point she had to go to therapy for herself to deal with my crazy. And I'm like. Like, you've got to be kidding me. To literally with someone's psyche to that level and be okay with it. And she's able to go to sleep at night not caring that she was with my head that deeply. I don't know how you do it.

[Mackenzie]

I.

[Hannah]

Well, I also think it's an interesting point that she knows what she's doing is wrong. So much of what she was saying in her story, I have to go to therapy because if you're crazy, I think you're cheating on me. All of those things were the things that she was causing. She was cheating on you. She was causing you to go to therapy because of what she was doing. And so she can rationalize that those are bad things and the effect is bad.

[Mackenzie]

And yet she spun it around.

[Hannah]

Anything that you were experiencing, she would make her own. We've talked about it before. Dry begging. Have you heard of this? It's a tactic in getting somebody to do what you want. It's what she said. Oh, I just. I can't afford this. Oh, I guess I just won't pay. I just won't go with my meds this month. And then you're like, obviously, I will help you. And so now it seems like it's your idea to offer the money. It's your idea to offer the credit card. Whatever it is that they are trying to get from you. There is a name for it. And she did that a lot.

[Kayla]

I had all the time, I'm not done with my money. And I was handing it fist over to mouth.

[Hannah]

Well, she made you think that you were making the decision that you had control in it, and it was so good.

[Mackenzie]

It was your idea then to give her the money so she could say, well, I told you not to. It was your idea.

[Hannah]

I even said, no, I didn't want it.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, they always give themselves an out so they can make it your idea. So if it ever comes back to bite them, they could say, but I

[Hannah]

told you not to, and you feel responsible.

[Kayla]

It's wild and manipulative. It's to the nth degree manipulative.

[Hannah]

I actually. I know you said it's. Oh, it's kind of sad. I'm not even dating. I'm not interested. I really commend you for taking this time, and I wish more people would.

[Mackenzie]

A lot of people jump back in because they want to get over someone else, get under someone new or whatever.

[Hannah]

There's a pressure. Like, I remember I was with someone once that was like, when's the last time you went two months without having sex? And I remember spiraling because I was like, there are definitely times where I am just not interested or I just. I don't feel like it's a healthy thing for me. And I think we have this idea that you have to be constantly proving your worth through dating or attraction. And there are many reasons not to do that, especially after a relationship, whether it's healthy or this. And I hope more people take the time to prioritize yourself. And it's actually kind of badass to have an amazing dog and an amazing career and invest in yourself and your healing. That's a lot harder to me than getting a few extra hinge dates just to prove that you're valuable 100%.

[Kayla]

I am am focused 100% on my dog and myself and my job. And it's been really healthy and healing for me. I can tell you I'm in the best headspace I've ever been in just from doing this and focusing on me and working out, eating better. I'm so happy I'm trying to do that. Glow up. And honestly, I'm securing my bag at this point for myself. I'm looking at buying a house on my own and stuff like that. I wouldn't be here if I would have continued to put my worth on a relationship.

[Hannah]

What is your relationship to her now? You said you don't really talk, but does she try to talk to you?

[Kayla]

No. I've reached out time from here and there and I'll be like, hey, ever gonna tell me what happened? And she won't respond. She's sent me these lovey dovey songs like oh, I miss you or you were the love of my life kind of songs. Mackenzie's face? Nah, girl. So I am so happy that it happened because I now know how much love I'm capable of giving someone. But I also know that is the same love I expect back and I will not accept anything less. But yeah, so we don't talk.

[Mackenzie]

Hell yeah.

[Hannah]

Have you considered reaching out to her ex slash current husband?

[Kayla]

Yes. Because if they ever get a divorce, I don't want her to get a dime from him. He needs to know the bullshit that she has been doing. I won't do it though, because of my kids. I have so much respect for her kids. I won't do it. At the end of the day, it's not my life. But if they ever do get a divorce, and if he ever hears the story and figures out that it's me, please reach out to me. I will give you all the respect seats from the two and a half years we were together. And I will make sure you get the best defense attorney you can to not let her get a dime.

[Hannah]

And you've probably got other witnesses and Blake and other people. Who knows, you could find out they're still married.

[Kayla]

She's had to have been cheating on him for years because before me she had Blake. And then before him she mentioned that there was a girl in between and then before her that there was another guy that she had saw. So if you were married this whole time, that means that for five, six years you were cheating on your husband. That's Messed up. Just split at that point.

[Hannah]

The fact that they're in the same home raising these kids together, I just am sad for that whole situation. And I think that you're a bigger person to prioritize their kids when it doesn't sound like they do that all the time.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, my God. That made me so mad. You're not the only person who's gone through this, Kayla, and so sharing your story is going to help someone else feel less alone. So thank you so much.

[Kayla]

The only thing I want to add, my cousin is the one who turned me onto your podcast, so if I can just say hi to Nana, she'll know who it is. And she also told me to tell you guys that she is your biggest fan and she loves you guys, so that's really sweet.

[Hannah]

I'm so glad that she shared us with you.

[Mackenzie]

Thank you for sending Kayla here, because it's just another great story to show that you're not alone.

[Hannah]

Share us with your whole kickball team.

[Kayla]

Oh, I absolutely will. They knew I was going on here, and they're like, we want the whole story.

[Hannah]

I'm glad that you're still close with them. And, ugh, thank you so much and everything you've been through.

[Kayla]

No, thank you guys so much for having me. It's. It's been a pleasure talking to you guys and getting to hang out with you guys for a few hours.

[Mackenzie]

We definitely want updates if you do start dating or if something comes of it. We'd like to know if you want to share with us. We'd like to continue the conversation when

[Hannah]

you're, like, running whatever company you're working at, because it sounds like that's what's going to happen if you're not already she a baddie.

[Mackenzie]

Kayla, you're a baddie.

[Hannah]

Keep us up to date.

[Kayla]

No, I absolutely will, guys. I'll make sure that you guys have the updates. If any other good ones, I'll send them mine. Yeah, for sure.

[Hannah]

I love it. Thank you.

[Mackenzie]

No, thank you.

[Kayla]

You guys.

[Mackenzie]

Why am I so angry right now?

[Hannah]

I have some. Some thoughts on why you might be so angry.

[Mackenzie]

Like, could. Okay, first of all, could you imagine being on medication that you do not need just because you're telling someone, like, hey, I think I might be a little crazy, and like, yep, here's some meds.

[Hannah]

Like that.

[Mackenzie]

Is that normal?

[Hannah]

I mean, I mean, I guess we could get into the whole, like, prescription mental health stuff and why this comes up so much, though, like, the relationships. Telling you that you're diagnosed with something is Just such a sign of manipulation. But unfortunately, I think it happens when you're already so deep into relationships that it's like, I don't have. I mean, there's no blame, obviously, ever. But she was so confused. Like, Aaron really got her to believe she was having delusions, and that pushed her to the brink. Like, we need to talk about how a dogfish is not just a. Like a cheater in a pop song. Like, a dogfish can really ruin your mental health.

[Mackenzie]

Just. Okay, Just. I think that many people can speak to being so. Feeling so overwhelmed by whatever it is that they are. Like, do I. Should I even be living?

[Kayla]

Like.

[Mackenzie]

Like, that is such an intense thought to have. And especially over. Over the fact that someone else is basically making you feel like you are the crazy one.

[Hannah]

It was so sad to hear her talk about that.

[Mackenzie]

It was beyond. It just breaks my heart and it just crushes me.

[Hannah]

I'm glad she talked about it, though, and I could tell how important it was to her to come talk about that so openly. And I know. I think we're, like, getting better as a society. Not perfect. But being understanding to those feelings, they're not weakness. They are human. And talking about them just, I hope, made one other person who listened feel less weak in what they were going through. Cause this like. Like, this was a result of her abuse and the manipulation. And I'm so happy she's here with us and able to talk about the story, but I know she's not alone.

[Mackenzie]

I just don't understand how someone can treat somebody so poorly that it drives them to this brink of questioning the own. The value of their own life.

[Kayla]

Life.

[Mackenzie]

It's just insane to me.

[Hannah]

Also, Erin took advantage. I forgot this. I just looked at my notes. She said she's going crazy like her mom. Like, she was telling her she was using what she knew about her history of mental illness in her family to get to push on that, which is just vicious. It's vicious to know that you are lying and to twist someone's reality like that.

[Kayla]

That.

[Hannah]

How do you get to that point? We talked about on Patreon recently. Somebody submitted. This is interesting. I won't. Like, we don't have to go on too much of a tangent, but someone submitted that they were having an affair and dog fishing and it was a woman, and she was talking about how she's not, like, basically how she fell into it and how one lie turned into another lie and turned into another lie. I'm not saying that this is what happened, but I think her Point was that. That we can't just say dogfish are monsters, because then that, like, dehumanizes them and doesn't hold them as accountable because we start to have Expect nothing less. And it was a good reminder to me. Obviously, we had a lot to talk about, but, like, this is a human. Aaron's a human. And I. I'm with you. Like, I don't understand how a human can get to that point and make that behavior figure. But she's not a monster. She's a person who knew what she was doing. Yeah, she knew it was wrong. People call out a lot. And I wrote it down. That trauma bond. The definition is sometimes not quite right. Yeah, she talked about.

[Mackenzie]

I heard that.

[Hannah]

Right. Well, she did talk about. Kayla talked about how Aaron used her, like, abuse in her marriage, which she was saying was over, even though it was maybe not over, but it was definitely not over, but kind of used all that trauma to gain sympathy and connect with her. I think trauma bonding is not just like when you dump trauma on each other. It's not like, when you experience. What is it? It's like a. Okay, I'm reading the definition because I want to know. Powerful addictive emotional attachment that develops in an abusive or toxic relationship where the victim feels intense loyalty to the perpetrator despite being mistreated. Okay, so they were trauma bonded. I mean, I think Eren got her to a point where she. Yeah, she. She used every trauma, every death, every cancer diagnosis, every parenting thing to make Kayla feel more loyal and more indebted to her.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, it's almost like she. Aaron, was using her to fill a void, but she had no intention of ever pursuing anything further, but she made it seem like she did, and that's really crappy.

[Hannah]

You know what I think? I think she targeted Kayla because she was threatened by Kayla, like, in life. I think she recognized that Kayla was wonderful and needed to feel more powerful than her. The power dynamic, though.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

That's another big thing in this story. Let's talk about the workplace, the age gap. Seventeen years, she held the upper hand as her boss and also just as an older person with more experience. And I think it's easy to hear these stories. And Kayla's an adult, and you can be like, oh, maybe she shouldn't have done X, Y, Z. We have to do a really good job of remembering that even a young adult who is a consenting adult is still in a position of, like, less power and inferiority. And especially the fact that she was her boss and HR and who's the

[Mackenzie]

HR for the hr.

[Hannah]

Like, what do you do? I was thinking about how a workplace is such a good place to be a dogfish because you have to keep it a secret since you're not allowed to be with someone most of the time. And so if you're cheating with somebody at work, they're not gonna tell anybody. Cause they have stake in the secret too. Even if they don't realize it's that you're actually married. Like, it was just messed up.

[Mackenzie]

No, I agree 100%. I agree with you.

[Hannah]

I started taking a tally of all the excuses she came up with. And then after like 12, I stopped because I couldn't. I couldn't anymore.

[Mackenzie]

The death.

[Hannah]

So everybody died anytime Kayla needed anything. That was funny. When it was like, kayla, are you killing her family?

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, exactly.

[Hannah]

And not to make light of death, it was like, we don't know if this was true at all.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah. And you just keep saying, oh, so and so died. Oh, so and so died. Like a rabbit died, a couple rabbits, and then a grandma and who is the dad? And it was just too, come on.

[Hannah]

And, oh, I'm a single mom. You don't understand what I'm going through. Which is fair. Like, if true. Fair, however, not an excuse. And if you're in a relationship, you don't want to like, on somebody for not being in the same life experience as you. You know what I mean?

[Mackenzie]

You help them understand.

[Hannah]

You don't blame them. Right. But she was lying, using it to lie. I did have to look up Jewish burying stuff like death, funeral procedures. And some of you also jumped in on this. I was like, what? I am Jewish. I didn't know what she was talking about. She was talking about picking out a thong for grandma or whatever. So we don't do that. Apparently we very are dead in very plain things. So it should be an easy process picking it out. And we bury them really fast. I knew that funerals happen like this. Nothing about not being in obituaries or not having obituaries, or people can have obituaries. Yeah. The only thing that was kind of interesting that I learned is like, there is an. You're supposed to have the extended family step in for the immediate, immediate grieving family. So they do take on responsibility, which makes sense and is nice. But I just am calling if your dogfish has that exact specific excuse that they have to go to a distant relative's orthodox Jewish funeral. Now we know what's true and what is not.

[Kayla]

I just wanted to look it up. Yeah.

[Hannah]

But like, so many excuses. Leaves her phone at work. Shut up. No, but.

[Mackenzie]

No, they don't stop it.

[Kayla]

No, she doesn't.

[Hannah]

No, they don't. When Kayla talked about, like, feeling so uncomfortable with her promotions and her self worth because she didn't know if it was just because of her relationship with Aaron.

[Kayla]

I get that.

[Hannah]

I get that too. And I think that, like, played into Aaron wanting to exert her power over her and make her feel less than. Cause she could have gotten that per. That raise and that promotion on a rock down. No. No question.

[Kayla]

It's.

[Mackenzie]

It's almost like you. It's like, I wish I hadn't had that, because then I'll. I'll never know if this was legit or, like, did I really earn this? And that kind. That's kind of shitty. Like, that kind of sucks.

[Hannah]

God. She didn't have cancer, so that's.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah. Because she asked the son, how's your mom's cancer? He's like, what cancer?

[Hannah]

Unbelievable.

[Kayla]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

We talked about dry begging.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, oh, this. And ever since we talked about that, I keep hearing it, like, around me and seeing it on social media, and I'm like, that's dry begging. That's dry begging.

[Hannah]

It's like, oh, wait, I guess so

[Mackenzie]

dry begging is just basically like, oh, I guess I just don't know what I'm gonna do or how I'm gonna pay this bill. And then you're waiting for someone to go, oh, I'll help you. Like, don't worry, I got you. And you're like, oh, I guess I'll just die without this liver transplant. Oh, well, you can have one of my livers. You know what I mean?

[Hannah]

Like, yep.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, you not wait. Livers come in one. That's kidney. I'm thinking kidney.

[Hannah]

Take my liver, Mackenzie, for you.

[Mackenzie]

You can have one of my livers. And so it's like where you're just like. You're just saying something, hoping someone will, like, catch on and come to your rescue with it. It's kind of. Don't do that.

[Hannah]

No, don't do that. And it's up to you. Perfect strategy for this dogfish who used all of her sob stories like, oh, I have cancer. Of course Kayla's going to be like, what can I do for you? How can I. How can I help you pay for things?

[Mackenzie]

Whatever it is, that sympathy from a normal human being is gonna come out.

[Hannah]

It's so unfortunate because it's such a beautiful quality. So I do hope that Kayla and everyone holds onto those things and Recognizes that they're not weaknesses. If we're aware. Yeah, we don't have to harden.

[Mackenzie]

I don't think. And it's not a weakness at all. Especially when, like, we think it's a weakness whenever we get taken advantage of. Of. But it's still not a weakness. Even if it gets taken advantage of, it's still not a weakness. That is something that's powerful that not a lot of people can say that they can offer to others. So when you are that kind and sympathetic towards another human being, that's never a weakness. Never. It is never wrong. It is never a weakness ever. I just don't. It just never is. I'm sorry.

[Hannah]

It's just not. I think that's even more powerful coming from you, given how. How often do you talk about. Not that you don't trust people, but you don't trust people. Like, you have your head on a swivel, You've seen some shit. Excuse my.

[Kayla]

But I will.

[Mackenzie]

No, but it's true. But I will also be the first one to be like, all right, I'm gonna help you. Like, if you know what I mean. Like, if I see someone on the side of the road and they're like, hey, can I have some money? I'm not gonna be, oh, I hope

[Kayla]

you just buy beer with it.

[Mackenzie]

It's not my business if he's saying, hey, I'm poor, and I. I'm just gonna. I'm just gonna give. Because that's what I feel like the right thing to do is if he. If he buys and it comes around, it's none of my business. Like, it's just not. And so we're so ready to, you know, jump on other people for what they're doing or say, oh, you're so too nice, or whatever, then I guess I'm too nice. But I'm always going to keep doing the right thing because eventually it's going to help somebody. And you know what I mean? Like, what do you do?

[Hannah]

I think that's so true. And in relationships suck to be taken

[Mackenzie]

advantage of in that way. It really does. But also, I mean, I don't know.

[Hannah]

I mean, it sucks. I'm all about embracing the maybe. Especially in dating, where it's like, at some point you have to accept that maybe something will go wrong. Maybe it's a dogfish situation. Maybe it's a tragedy. Maybe it's a breakup, whatever it is, and that's part of life, and we can still be open to people and love people. Even though maybe it's not gonna.

[Mackenzie]

Excuse me.

[Hannah]

Work out. I mean, it sucks, but this is always so depressing at the end of these conversations.

[Mackenzie]

It really is. But you know what? I just think that I. I think Kayla did everything she could. I think that she continually. And it's easy to look at her story and say, oh, my gosh, why does she keep giving in? Why does she. Why does she not see it? You gotta remember this is over the course of, what, three years? So it didn't. It might not have seemed as noticeable over that course of time because it's diluted with all this love. And.

[Hannah]

And the love bombing was atomic. Like, she was a pro love bomber, Aaron. 100% and was so good at doing the thing where she gave. Gives so much attention, so much love, and then pulls back ghosts for a few days. Makes it feel like Kayla's like, what did I do wrong? What did I do wrong? And then she does something.

[Mackenzie]

And that's why that earns it.

[Hannah]

Oh, when we're.

[Kayla]

We're.

[Mackenzie]

When we're seeing it, when we're hearing

[Kayla]

it over the course of two hours,

[Mackenzie]

this story, and we're like, yeah, those. A hundred percent. Like, she needs to stop doing that. Like, why can't she see this? But over the course of three years, it seems a little more diluted. And you. Maybe it's not as obvious. And so that's why it's. It's easy to judge somebody by their story, but look back, and it's like, maybe she didn't see it as easily and she loved this person. Like, this is someone that she really did love.

[Hannah]

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

[Mackenzie]

It's shitty all the way around, but it's shitty.

[Hannah]

But she has her dog now, and she's feeling better, and she came to tell us the story, which is, like, the best gift. So. Kayla.

[Kayla]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

And really love you.

[Mackenzie]

I love that song.

[Hannah]

The.

[Kayla]

The who's.

[Mackenzie]

I don't. It's a country singer. She said, the more guys I. I meet, the more I like my dog.

[Kayla]

That's what I thought of when I thought of her.

[Mackenzie]

I was like, yep. She's like, listen, me and my dog, I don't need nobody else, period. Not right now.

[Hannah]

Not right now. And that's okay. Oh, my God. Anybody else that's in, like, a very happy single era. I'm. I'm loving it.

[Kayla]

I'm really loving it.

[Hannah]

Like, it's nice.

[Mackenzie]

That's awesome.

[Hannah]

I really hope, especially after a breakup, good or bad, like, if it's toxic or not, like, taking time for yourself, I Wish we all could do it even more.

[Mackenzie]

And the good thing is it sounds like she really did learn something. And she's ready. She's equipped with the. She's equipped with the memory of how she felt. And now she can. Maybe she'll be able to pinpoint things a little bit easier next time. So we always learn something in every situation. Obviously it's not. It sucks that it still happened, but at least there was a lesson that she was able to take away from it. So maybe.

[Hannah]

I like the way you phrase that. She was. She's equipped with the memory of how she felt. Both good and bad.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

And can pull from that.

[Mackenzie]

And. And then now she has more. More experience to pull from when making future decisions. And it's all. I hate to be toxic. Positive poly. But it's not. Not true. You know what I mean?

[Hannah]

Like, this just gives you more of me. I am so with you. I. I think she's amazing. I hope she and her kickball team win all of the tournaments.

[Mackenzie]

Go kickball.

[Hannah]

Go kickball, baby. I love that she did that. What a red flag for her to go make her own friends and have the first thing. The dogfish who's literally cheating on so many people. First thing she does is be like, we're breaking up. That's not okay. It's like, yeah, classic red flag of a cheater.

[Kayla]

Sorry. What?

[Mackenzie]

But yeah. But again, thank you for all the

[Kayla]

support you've already shown.

[Mackenzie]

You can continue to send your loving thoughts and we would love to share them with Kayla and remind her her that she's not alone and you aren't either. So continue to share your stories and keep with us.

[Hannah]

Yeah. If you want to email us, it's Investigatedating Detectives podcast dot com. We want all of them.

[Mackenzie]

We love you and thank you again for listening to the show and for supporting us. And as always, trust your tuition.

[Kayla]

Sam.