The Long Game: Part 1

Summary

Summary of "The Long Game: Part 1" - The Dating Detectives Podcast

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Introduction

In the premiere episode titled "The Long Game: Part 1" of The Dating Detectives podcast, hosted by Dear Media, guest Talia shares a harrowing and intricate narrative about her experiences with manipulative relationships, emotional abuse, and personal struggles within the dating landscape. This episode dives deep into the subtle dynamics of toxic relationships, emphasizing the importance of recognizing red flags and understanding the impact of unmet emotional needs.

Background

Talia begins by setting the stage with her upbringing in a strict Mormon household in Arizona, characterized by her mother's opioid addiction and narcissistic behavior. This tumultuous environment blurred the lines between love and abuse for Talia, fostering people-pleasing tendencies and a deep-seated fear of hurting others’ feelings. These early experiences laid the foundation for her future relationship patterns.

• Notable Quote:

  “My relationship with my mom was extremely turbulent and it left me very confused with the line between love and abuse.”
  — Talia [00:49]

Meeting Finn at Coachella 2017

At 19, Talia attends Coachella with her friend group, where she meets Finn, her cousin Dylan’s best friend. Finn is initially portrayed as quirky and goofy, traits that endear him to Talia despite his being perceived as "a little weird" by the rest of the group.

• Notable Quote:

  “Finn was 6'3. He had dark hair and these insane colored eyes. He was really handsome.”
  — Talia [07:00]

Developing the Relationship and Early Red Flags

During the festival, Finn begins to exhibit protective behavior towards Talia, especially when her on-again, off-again boyfriend, Peter, follows her to Coachella. Finn’s protective nature quickly escalates from concern to possessiveness, blurring the lines between friendship and romantic interest.

• Notable Quote:

  “Finn was being really protective. It was really nice to feel seen in that moment.”
  — Talia [12:04]

Escalation and Manipulation

As Talia and Finn continue their casual hookup post-Coachella, Finn’s demands become increasingly controlling. He asserts moral obligations, such as sharing their relationship status with Talia’s cousin, which strains Talia’s relationship with her family and friends.

• Notable Quote:

  “He told my cousin that me and Finn are sleeping together. That was our first argument.”
  — Talia [17:04]

Isolation and Mental Health Struggles

By 2021, Talia’s mental health deteriorates due to the relentless stress and manipulation from Finn. His behavior oscillates between being a supportive friend and exhibiting threatening tendencies, such as hinting at physical harm when Talia tries to distance herself.

• Trigger Warning: This episode contains discussions of emotional abuse, manipulation, and suicidal ideation.

• Notable Quote:

  “I was like, 'I don't think I'm good enough for you.' And I felt disgusting.”
  — Talia [97:00]

Critical Incident and Crisis Point

A pivotal moment occurs when Finn confronts Talia with a love letter professing his feelings. Under immense emotional strain and sleep deprivation, Talia impulsively reciprocates, leading to a breakdown and a subsequent intervention by medical professionals.

• Notable Quote:

  “He was saying, 'I just think about grabbing this hammer and hitting you in the head with it.' I was like, 'No.'”
  — Talia [115:10]

Conclusion of Part 1

The episode concludes with Talia’s deepening crisis, marked by her emotional breakdown and ultimate realization of the toxic dynamics with Finn. The interplay between emotional support and manipulation underscores the complexity of abusive relationships, highlighting the challenges of escaping such entanglements.

Key Insights and Takeaways

1. Recognizing Subtle Abuse: Finn’s behavior illustrates how emotional abuse can masquerade as protectiveness and support, making it difficult to identify and extricate oneself from toxic relationships.

2. Impact of Unmet Emotional Needs: Finn capitalizes on Talia’s unmet emotional needs, showcasing how abusers manipulate vulnerabilities to maintain control.

3. Mental Health Awareness: The narrative emphasizes the critical importance of addressing mental health struggles and seeking professional help in the face of emotional abuse.

4. Importance of Boundaries: Establishing and maintaining clear boundaries is vital in preventing emotional manipulation and safeguarding one’s well-being.

Notable Quotes

• Finn’s Overbearing Nature:

  “I think I could fall in love with you.”
  — Finn [13:40]

• Talia’s Emotional Turmoil:

  “I just couldn’t regulate my emotions and all that.”
  — Talia [70:07]

• Critical Threat:

  “I just think about grabbing this hammer and like, hitting you in the head with it.”
  — Finn [115:10]

Timestamp Highlights

• [00:49]: Talia discusses her challenging upbringing and its impact.
• [05:50]: Introduction of Finn at Coachella.
• [12:04]: Finn expresses deep feelings towards Talia.
• [17:04]: Finn manipulates relationship dynamics.
• [45:24]: Finn makes a threatening gesture with a hammer.
• [97:00]: Talia expresses self-doubt and emotional distress.
• [115:10]: Finn hints at physical harm over emotional conflicts.

Conclusion

"The Long Game: Part 1" of The Dating Detectives presents a compelling and distressing account of Talia’s entanglement with Finn, a seemingly supportive individual whose behavior reveals deeper, manipulative intent. The episode serves as a poignant reminder of the subtle dangers within relationships and the importance of mental health vigilance. Listeners are left anticipating Part 2, which promises to unravel the aftermath of the critical incidents and Talia’s journey towards healing.

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Note: If you or someone you know is experiencing abusive relationships or mental health struggles, please reach out to professionals or trusted individuals for support.

Transcript

[Hannah]

The following program contains names, places and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following program is provided for entertainment purposes only, and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances. If you or a loved one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic violence hotline at 1-800-799-7233 for support. Good morning, sunshine.

[Mackenzie]

Good morning. Good morning. Good morning. I was just writing down notes because first of all, first of all, thank you guys for being here. Happy Monday.

[Hannah]

Yes.

[Mackenzie]

You know, dating Detective Sleuthy Monday. But we are. I'm just. I'm a little bit beside myself because we recorded this episode with this guest and. And it was. We were just saying how it's. It's just so crazy, this story. They're all crazy, but like it. Oh, my God.

[Hannah]

Yeah. No, this is going to be a two parter and I will.

[Mackenzie]

Sorry.

[Talia]

Not.

[Mackenzie]

Sorry.

[Hannah]

So we are recording it in two parts. Usually we record two parters in one sitting and then edit. Molly is an amazing editor. We are not hearing the ending until later, so we have to deal with what you guys deal with. And it's creating a level of empathy.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

Because we're like, oh, my God, I want to know. But I will say we still love the two parter.

[Talia]

Sorry. We love it.

[Hannah]

And I love that. So a lot of you do love it. You've said well.

[Mackenzie]

And also I just want to say that even though I know some of you are like, oh, a two parter, you guys. Our goal is to allow a space, the appropriate space for our guests to share their stories. And sometimes it takes longer to tell the story, so.

[Hannah]

Yeah. And longer to digest.

[Talia]

Yeah.

[Mackenzie]

It is a lot to digest and especially with something like this. I just. Thank you for your patience. We want to give everybody the appropriate amount of time that they need. But there are some trigger warnings with this one. It's a little bit of. I don't know if you guys have ever heard of sleep deprivation when it comes to emotional abuse or like just abuse in general. Manipulation.

[Hannah]

If you've been listening, then you have because it's happened here before.

[Mackenzie]

Yep. So think sleep deprivation, emotional abuse. There's a little bit of talks of suicide and miscarriage, pregnancy stuff. So just want to let you guys know. It's. It gets a little dark sometimes.

[Hannah]

Her name's Talia. She's awesome. She's okay. She's safe now. But the story.

[Mackenzie]

We're glad she's here to tell her story.

[Hannah]

Absolutely. She did. We'll talk. You'll hear us at the beginning. But she, she was like, there's a lot of details. So I had my pen and pencil, y'all, but yeah, there's a lot of characters. I was writing them all down. You should, too. We should all make our diagrams, share them on Patreon.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, for sure.

[Hannah]

Patreon. $5 a month. Thank you to those who subscribe. You know the drill. It's awesome. Two bonus episodes. Book club.

[Mackenzie]

We'll put the link to the Patreon in the show. Note. So shall we get into it? I think let's talk to Talia.

[Hannah]

I'm ready.

[Talia]

Ok.

[Hannah]

Hi, Talia.

[Talia]

Hi.

[Mackenzie]

I'm dying to hear this story. We want to give you the floor, so take us away.

[Talia]

All right. So it's kind of a roller coaster. So I just wanted to start with a bit of background because, like I said, it is complex. So a little bit about me. I grew up in a super religious Mormon household in Arizona. My mom was an opioid addict and a narcissist. My relationship with my mom was extremely turbulent and. And it left me very confused with the line between love and abuse. So that was a, that was a fun way to grow up. But there was a lot of big tempers in the house and I was definitely, I was a younger sister. So I was always getting into trouble. And a lot of the times I was getting in trouble because my mom decided to be mad that day. And that just kind of built people pleaser tendencies in me. And so at a very young age, I started getting really scared to hurt people's feelings because I just didn't wanna make people sad. I didn't want them to be upset. So instead of hurting their feelings, I would just end up in some really sticky situations. So that's a little bit of background on me.

[Hannah]

That's like, great. I mean, you've obviously done work because the way you put all of that is so clear and makes so much sense and so many people have said similar things.

[Talia]

Years of progress here. So let's just, let's get into the story. So it starts back in 2017 at Coachella. I was 19 years old and I was a full blown Coachella girly. Like, I went every single year. I had a friend group that we went every year we camped. And this year we kind of expanded out a little bit and I invited my cousin Dylan. And so Dylan came, he Brought his new girlfriend and his best friend Finn. So Finn's the main character here. My cousin Dylan, when we got there, he kind of ditched Finn for his new girlfriend. And I felt bad for Finn because, you know, we're all paired in cars. We're all driving in a Coachella together, and he's just alone in his little car. So while we were driving in, I hopped in his car and I was like, hey, let's be friends. You're my cousin's friend. Introduce myself. And it was kind of like the scene of a movie where we're like driving in a Coachella and the sun's rising and we're like blasting EDM music. And it was, it was really sweet at the time. Just like a fun little 19 year old memory. So we get in, we like setting up camp. We were so tight knit that it was hard to introduce new people to the group. So everyone kind of thought Finn was a little weird. But I, I thought he was really quirky and I thought he was really cute. Like, he was just kind of dorky to me. And so I quickly became friends with him.

[Mackenzie]

Do you mean weird like a quirky weird? Like silly, A little ridiculous, maybe like goofy?

[Talia]

Yeah, I thought he was really goofy. Like when we were driving in a Coachella, he was playing really sad music and I was like, this is not the vibe at all. You should be playing something upbeat and happy. So I don't know, he just like creepy though. Not creepy weird. Definitely like a little quirky.

[Mackenzie]

All right.

[Hannah]

He's kind of like mysterious. Like he's a little different.

[Talia]

It was more like he's like a little puppy dog.

[Hannah]

Say no more. I get that.

[Talia]

Just a little bit of a puppy dog. So, yeah, we're going off on our groups and since my cousin Dylan had ditched Finn, I was like, just hang out with us. Gonna be fun. It was just first Coachella, but very early on, he starts getting a little flirty. I wasn't sure if it was flirting or if we were just having fun together, but he tells me he has a girlfriend, and I shut that down immediately. I was like, you have a girlfriend. We're not doing this flirting thing. We're stuck together for the next three or four days. Let's just have a good weekend. And my friends definitely noticed that he was flirting with me. So they, right off the bat, they're like a little off put by him. But I'm just trying to keep the vibes going. I'm trying to, you know.

[Hannah]

Right, you're a people Pleaser. You're like, oh, that's nice, but you have a girlfriend. Yeah, I get it.

[Talia]

I just want to go see Lady Gaga. Like, everyone calm down. So I had an on and off boyfriend named Peter, and he was super abusive. And I went to Coachella, and Peter ended up buying a ticket somehow. And he followed me to Coachella, but he had his own group, but was just lurking in the shadows a little.

[Hannah]

Were you not together at that point?

[Talia]

No, we were not together. And he just literally followed me to Coachella. He just got jealous I was going, so he decided to go. I think he literally brought a ticket on the side of the road kind of thing. Just weird situation. But he had a friend group there, so he camped with them. But he was texting me the whole time, like, trying to meet up. And I told Finn about him, and Finn, right off the bat, was acting so protective. Like, don't text him back. I see his name on your phone. Like, just have fun. And in the moment, it was really nice. It was a little corny. But Finn was 6, 3. He had dark hair. He had these insane colored eyes. They're like blue, green. I don't know. There's just. He was really handsome. You know when they say, like, tall, dark and handsome. Yeah, kind of that. Yeah, kind of that. And protective. So that was nice. So throughout Coachella, we kind of stuck together, and we were just having a freaking ball. Like, we were being. It sounds kind of corny, but we were being, like, so silly. And I had this shirt that said dump him in big letters. And I have a shirt like that.

[Hannah]

Is it like the Britney Spears one?

[Talia]

Yeah, I love it. And I was like, aunt Peter is here. So, like, I'm wearing my dumb shirt. Yeah. And I. At one point, I remember, I, like, couldn't see, see, because I'm a little shorter. And I stood on these trash cans and I was dancing, and I, like, fell in the trash can wearing my dump him shirt. And Finn just thought it was the funniest thing ever. So I don't know. We were just having a great time. And instead of him being like, hey, she's a little weird, and she's just running around these fields, he was just so about it.

[Hannah]

He matched your freak.

[Talia]

Yeah, he matched my freak for sure, as they say. And the last night, Coachella, I had this tradition. You know, those inflatable dinosaur outfits.

[Mackenzie]

Yes, yes.

[Talia]

So I had this tradition with my friends where before the show would end, like, 30 minutes before, we'd run back to camp, I'd put On the outfit. And then we would wait at the exit so all those hundreds of thousands of people are walking out and then I'm the first thing they see. And then I would have like dance battles with them in my little outfit.

[Mackenzie]

I love it.

[Talia]

Wait, it was.

[Hannah]

I want to come to Coachella with you.

[Talia]

That sounds amazing. I still have it so we can make it happen.

[Hannah]

That's so ridiculous.

[Mackenzie]

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[Talia]

So this night, we drew a crowd. It was maybe a hundred people, maybe more, and it's a whole dance circle. And I just remember total bliss in that moment. So fun. And Finn thinks it's the coolest thing since sliced bread. So we did that pretty much all night. And then I get out my. My little dino suit, and I look at my phone, and I had texts from Peter, and Peter had texted me, and he's like, you're such a whore. You're an attention whore. And all this stuff. I know. I don't like it. I don't hated it. And at the same time, I'm like, my body has never been more covered in my life.

[Hannah]

Yeah, literally. No, he's just mad that you're, like, having fun without him.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, 100%.

[Talia]

I was like, I'm not gonna let this kill the vibe. We're all on this adrenaline rush. We go back to our camp, and then I wait for everyone to go to bed, and I just crawl into a car that's unlocked, and I'm just bawling my eyes out. I'm crying so hard. And then turns out it was Finn's car. So Finn comes crawling in the car. He sees me crying, and he is so devastated for me, and he's telling me all these things. Like, he's wiping my tears, and he's like, you know, you try to put so many people ahead of you, and you try to make people laugh, and then you're just this broken girl and all this stuff. And it was really sweet hearing that. And then he just starts going, you know, I think I could fall in love with you. And I was like, all right, pump the brakes a little bit. So I was pretty overwhelmed with that. But at the same time, I was enjoying being seen. Really?

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Talia]

I was just someone who's like, hey, laugh in public, Cry in private. So he saw my crying private space and accepted it and said a lot of encouraging things. So, like I said, it was really nice to feel seen in that moment, but I definitely had to set that boundary. Like, you have a girlfriend. You don't love me. We've just been running on, like, Lunchables and Gatorades for the past four days. Like, you know, so Coachella ends, and my friend group, we just keep the party going. So before summer of 2017, me and my friends, we're going to a lot of parties, and we have a group chat, and Finn's in these group chats, so he's kind of going where we're going. It's not like a you're not allowed to go thing. It's just an open invite. But again, my friends are not his biggest fan. But I, I've always had a soft spot for the people who get picked last in dodgeball, you know?

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Talia]

Yes, I get that even in movies. It makes me cry. I'm like, they, they just want to play dodgeball, you know, they didn't know. Yeah. So I totally was like, you know, you can come, it's fine. So he eventually ends the girlfriend that he was dating at Coachella. And some time passes, one thing leads to another, we hook up. He was the first guy I had talked to since Peter. So I was just living in the excitement of everything being new. I wasn't really thinking of anything else. I was still living at home and he had an apartment. So I was able to go to his apartment, get out of my parents house. And we get to know each other a little bit more. And he tells me about a traumatic brain injury he had when he was 14. I don't really know the details. I think it was like a skateboard crash or something. And he has these like dizzy spells, so he'll randomly get really, really bad vertigo. So being the little caregiver I am, I kind of had this obligation, I felt like, to take care of him when he had these dizzy spells and they would cause him to panic. So he would feel one coming on and it was like a full blown panic attack. And I'm not a nurse or anything, so I'm like trying to find something with sugar. I'm like, is your blood sugar? I'd like, I don't know anything that's going on. I'm just here to help. And I remember texting my cousin Dylan at one point and I was like, what is going on? What are these dizzy spells? And my cousin was like, just kind of gotta work through them with him, I guess. Like he was used to it. So I was like, oh, this is normal.

[Hannah]

Wait, how did your cousin know him?

[Talia]

Just be like around, want to say high school. They were best friends at that point.

[Hannah]

So that also like validates him as a safe person. It's not like you just met him on an app.

[Talia]

You're like, yeah. So me and my cousin, we're pretty close, but not this close. His Finn ends up telling Dylan that me and him are sleeping together.

[Mackenzie]

What?

[Talia]

That's my cousin.

[Hannah]

We wear diapers together.

[Talia]

We're literally the same age. So I was like, that is so weird. Dude. And even my cousin was like, I don't need to know that. And Finn's like, it's my moral obligation. I have to tell him. He's my best friend. And me and Dylan, we're like, no, you don't, dude. So that was really our first argument, because I was like, that was just an invasion of my privacy, and my cousin does not need that in his life. So that kind of makes him and my cousin drift a little bit, because my cousin's like, I want no part of this at all.

[Mackenzie]

I'm not interested in this conversation.

[Hannah]

And you guys weren't, like, official. You were just hooking up?

[Talia]

We were just hooking up. And like I said, for me, it was really casual. But after Finn told my cousin, he starts implying that we're dating or that he wants to date. And for me, we're still very early post Coachella. So I was like, I don't want to date you. I don't want to date anybody right now. So he gets his feelings hurt pretty bad, and I'm trying to explain to him, like, I'm not. Not healed at all. I've only known you for a month. But if you want, we can still hang out, but it can't go any further than that. And as I pull away, he gets really, really needy. So it starts turning into, like, if I had to leave, he would have a dizzy spell. Like, he'd start getting vertigo, or he'd have a panic attack, and he can feel one coming on, and. Okay, yeah. So I'm, you know, one foot out the door, and then I have to turn around because I'm like, is this six, three dude gonna fall? Like, I have no idea what's gonna happen. And I kind of had to talk him out of it, talk him down, like, soothing voice. I had no idea what I was doing, by the way. So I start seeing what my friends were seeing in the beginning, and I'm definitely distancing myself. And we're in May at this point, and me and my friends, we throw a birthday party for another friend, and I absolutely black out. And this is really, really out of character. Like, I just. I couldn't stand up. I remember people were holding me up, and everyone, even all my friends were, yeah, everyone was, like, totally caught off guard by this, because I don't. I was a party girl, but I never blacked out. So Ben, he was at the party, and he was telling people that he was going to take me home. And one of my friends was like, absolutely not. You're not taking her home. I'm taking her home. Like, praise. Good for your friend. I know. Sweet, sweet angel guy. And he was like. Finn was kind of argumentative. Was like, well, she said she wants to hang out. And my friend was like, she's not even hanging out herself right now.

[Hannah]

Like, no, she wouldn't be hanging out. No, she's going to bed.

[Talia]

Yeah, she's hanging on right now. Okay. She's not hanging out with anyone. And I remember. Barely remember, but at one point, I was like, I need to lay down. And so this friend who was gonna drive me home, he walks into a room, and I'm on the floor, like, just laying down. And Finn's just in there laying down with me on the floor, I guess. And my friend was like, nope, wrap it up. We're leaving. So he takes me home. And I woke up the next morning, and I had no idea how I got home. I'm, like, texting my friends, you know, realize I was safe. I'm good. But they all told me. They were like. So Finn was being kind of like, a little bit of a weirdo last night. So after this, I just cut things off. I was like, I can't do this. My friends don't really like you. He had an innocent explanation, but I was like, I don't have a way of verifying that when I have 10 people telling me one thing and then, yeah, me, another. So, yeah, I cut things off. But he's still in our group chat. But we're. We're kind of slowing things down at this point with going out and whatnot. And then we get to Memorial Day weekend, so we're like, end of May now. And my same friends, we had this annual lake trip that we did so every year for Memorial. And this camping trip is a freaking party. Like, there's multiple camps, there's multiple beaches. It's so much fun. And Finn texts me and asked me if he can come. I said no. I was like, probably not a good idea and whatnot. He says that I invited him. I don't recall this, and I will die on this hill. But he says I invited him. And so he just shows up. Anyways, he catches a ride with someone who was at Coachella with us. So someone's in the friend group, but he doesn't know him too well. And my friend's kind of reluctant, but again, it's like the last kid picked in dodgeball kind of situation.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Talia]

So I have this established camping group. So I have tents, I have grills, I have you know, everything. Ben shows up, he has, like, literally the shirt on his back, and that's it. He was not prepared, and not even a lunchable. And I was like, did you not learn anything from Coachella? Come on, man.

[Hannah]

That's the thing about the cute puppies. Sometimes it's like they're also helpless.

[Talia]

Very helpless. And I'm like, I can't feed you. Come on. So he gets there. But another thing was my high school sweetheart, George was in town, and my high school sweetheart and I. So his name's George. He left for the military after high school, and he got stationed overseas. So we had a breakup. And every time he came to town, we would just pick up where we left off kind of thing. So our friends, we merge camping groups, and Finn is just kind of following us around. He's trying to hang out. The boys. The boys are kind of like, we're boys with George, you know, camping with y'all. Yeah. So George is camping with us, and Finn doesn't really know anybody on a personal level other than me. And he's just following us around like we're floating in tubes, and he's just, like, waiting out in the water kind of thing. It was super awkward. But that night, we're all sitting around the campfire, and Finn's. I'm pretty sure he's hammered. And he leans in, and he's like, george, George, I need to talk to you. And George is like, okay, what, man? Like, what now? Come on. And Finn is like, I'm in love with Talia, and I know her better than you do and all this stuff. And he's like, we slept together. And I was like, that, first off, is not your place to tell other. Stop telling people. Stop it. And I. At this point, I have enough. And so I yelled at Finn. I raised my voice. I did yell. I was like, you need to leave. You're not welcome. You're making things super awkward here. But at this point, it's nighttime, and his ride had left, like, hours ago. And I was like, you need to figure it out. I. I don't have a tent for you. I. I can't take care of you. I mean, you can eat some of our, like, sausage hamburger. Yeah. So he's kind of lost at this point, but I was like, you can't stay with us. And he really was like, full, sad puppy dog. Like, the saddest little eyes don't look weird. Yeah. And I was like, you. Your ride left hours ago. You had the chance. You had the chance to not come. And then you had the chance.

[Hannah]

You weren't invited.

[Talia]

Was not invited at all. And he's just devastated. And I. I felt awful. I don't like yelling at people. I don't like making people feel unwanted. But I was like, I'm running out of options here.

[Hannah]

At this point, he's not reading the room or the woods or wherever you are, you know, like, yeah. Were people listening or were you like.

[Talia]

Oh, yeah, this was in front of everyone. So my friends kind of chimed in too. I mean, they weren't yelling, but they were like, dude, go. Like, you need to go. And George's friends, they're going to have George's back no matter what. And I was worried a fight was going to break out because he's trying to pull George to the side and be like, I love her and whatnot. George is just not having it. And I'm thinking if there's a fight, he has this tbi, his head injury.

[Hannah]

So you're so right.

[Talia]

Yeah. So I was very, very, very aware of it at all times. And so I just want it to be done. And I go in my tent. Me and George are sharing a tent. And I don't know what happens to Finn at all. Overnight, I'm like, not my circus, not my monkeys. And me and George, we wake up in the morning and the sun is beating down on us. We're hungover and gross and sweaty, and we just hear tapping our tent. And it's Finn, and he's whispering my name. He's like, talia. Talia. What?

[Mackenzie]

Ew.

[Talia]

Yeah, it was.

[Mackenzie]

Don't be weird.

[Talia]

It was a really creepy way to wake up. I remember me and George like each other, and we were like, oh, my.

[Hannah]

God, this guy doing. Yeah.

[Talia]

And I get out of the tent and this boy, like, Finn is sunburnt. He never found shelter, I guess, and he's sunburnt. And I was like, you just look sad, dude. Like, at this point, I'm trying to reason with him. I'm like, just go home. And I'm trying to reason with him. Over here. My friends are making plans to go to another lake.

[Mackenzie]

And you're trying to go, probably.

[Talia]

I'm trying to go. And I tell Finn, I'm like, listen, you are not welcome. I do not want you at this next lake. Like, we're lake hopping. I don't own the lake, but please don't come. You know.

[Mackenzie]

You guys, if you are new here, I'm gonna tell you about my husband's a sweaty sleeping. No, I'm Just kidding. But seriously, your nighttime bedroom temperature has a huge impact on your sleep quality. My husband is a hot sleeper. He wakes up sweating. I'm a cold sleeper. Like, I want a heated blanket even in the middle of July. Okay. And I'm in Florida, so that says something.

[Hannah]

I'm usually pretty, I think normal, but I woke up really sweaty this morning and I kind of feel like something's.

[Mackenzie]

You weren't using the Miracle Maid sheets, were you?

[Hannah]

No, I have two sets of sheets and I switched them. Guys, I'm really not using Miracle Mane. When I do use Miracle Made, I don't sweat more. It's. Well, I don't sweat more. Like when I have the Miracle main.

[Mackenzie]

Sheets, you sweat more without them.

[Talia]

Yeah, yeah, Right, right. If you.

[Mackenzie]

Well, if you wake up too hot or too cold like me or my husband, I highly recommend you check out Miracle Maid's bed sheets. Miracle made sheets are inspired by NASA and it uses silver infused fab fabrics that are temperature regulating so you can sleep at the perfect temp all night long. And like Hannah just said, she didn't use her Miracle made sheets and she woke up sweating. I'm telling you, it's like legit, so. And also, I don't know if you knew this, but traditional bed sheets, like regular bed sheets, can harbor more bacteria than a toilet seat.

[Talia]

Right?

[Mackenzie]

Like, I don't think people realize that. And I'm someone who exists in the beauty and skin care space. So like when I tell you it can lead to acne, even like allergy stuffy noses, but it's just gross when you think about your face is all over these pillowcases. But the Miracle Maid offers a whole line of self cleaning antibacterial bedding, including the sheets and pillowcases comforters, and they Prevent up to 99.7% of bacteria growth. And that means like three times less laundry. So stop sleeping on the bacteria, which can cause your pores and give you breakouts and all the jazz. Hannah will be switching back to her Miracle Made.

[Hannah]

Yes, I will. I gotta wash these and switch em up.

[Mackenzie]

And they have a lot of colors too, which I really like. But anyways, they are luxuriously comfortable. Like when I say that, really, really nice. Upgrade your sleep this year. Go to trymiracle.com TDD to try Miracle made sheets today. And whether you're buying them for yourself or as a gift for a loved one, if you order today, you can save over 40%. And if you use our promo TDD at checkout, you'll get a free three piece towel set and save an extra 20%. Miracle Made is so confident in their product, it's backed with a 30 day money back guarantee. So if you aren't 100% satisfied, you'll get a full refund. Upgrade your sleep with Miracle made. Go to try Miracle.com TDD and use code TDD to claim your free three piece towel set and save over 40% off. Again, that's try Miracle.com TDD to treat yourself. Thank you, Miracle Made for sponsoring this episode and making me and my husband sleep more comfortably together.

[Talia]

I leave. I kind of leave him. So we get back to town, we meet up at a friend's house, and we're packing up the car to go to the next lake. And this car rolls up and it's Finn driving. He catches a ride. No, he catches a ride. He makes friends. So he meets Chris, who's George's best friend. And Chris wasn't camping with us, so he missed the whole debacle that went down. And so he came up with a story for Chris and was like, oh, my ride ditched me this and that. Chris felt bad for him. So he just shows up at this house and I lose it. I'm standing on the curb, I'm trying to be eye level with him, which is hard because he's a giant. And I was like, stop it. For the love of God, stop it. This is bad. This is embarrassing for you. It's embarrassing for me. And he's just like, well, can I go to the lake? I'm already here. And I was like, I mean, you're already here, I guess. God, I like I said the dodgeball.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Talia]

What are you supposed to do? Yeah.

[Hannah]

Is that like you felt more annoyed? Was there, there any part of you that was like, this is getting freaky or scary or not? Not yet.

[Talia]

Not yet. And this ties back to. Into the fine line of love and abuse nowadays. Looking back and like, dude, that's creepy. But at that time, I'm like, there's this poor guy. He just wants a friend group.

[Mackenzie]

You had empathy, you wanted. Yeah.

[Talia]

I'm just thinking, I don't want him to go home and cry. That's so sad, you know, and it.

[Mackenzie]

Would be your fault. And then you'd feel bad.

[Talia]

Yeah. And so I.

[Hannah]

You think? I guess.

[Talia]

Yeah. So that camping trip is a very important part of the story. So 2017, Memorial Day weekend. Keep that in the back of your brains. So for the remainder of 2017, we definitely, me and him are done. I'm done. So he stops talking to me and I'm like, thank God. You know?

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Talia]

So we, we're like, no contact. It's not even intentional no contact. It's just we're not talking. I went back in time a little bit and I reconnected with my abusive boyfriend Peter, the one who followed me to Coachella. So that relationship was. That's a story for another day. But that relationship was physically abusive. So I'm so sorry. Thank you. It was wild. It was not good. It was not a good situation at all. And I was going through that on my own. I didn't really want people to know what I was going through. So very much internalized it all. And at the end of 2017, I ended up getting pregnant, but I very quickly had a miscarriage, so. Oh, no.

[Mackenzie]

I'm so sorry.

[Talia]

It was, it was rough. And I'm bringing that up because it ruined my relationship with being a mom. After that, I just became hardcore. I don't want kids. It was that in my relationship with my mom where I was like, I just don't want kids.

[Hannah]

With Peter at this point, how did he handle the miscarriage?

[Talia]

Not well. We were constantly fighting after the miscarriage. I was just. I was kind of like a ticking time bomb at all times. And I had to sit down with myself one day and I was like, I don't want to be this person. So ended things with him, got rid of that. So that was very pivotal point in my life. So I'm like, let's turn a new chapter, pretend this didn't happen. And then I ended up getting a new job. I moved out of my parents house. I just was like, you know what? Let's grow up. I'm. I think I was 20 at this point. So I was like, let's. Let's grow up, you know, so that's so much. It was a lot, but it all, it's all part of the journey. So then now we're in 2018. In January, I meet Liam. So I. At my new job, I met liam and he's four years older than me. So I'm in my early 20s and he's in his mid-20s. And Liam was wonderful, an absolute awesome human being. Had this amazing family. It was the first healthy family I'd ever been around. So I started getting a little bit of imposter syndrome around them because I was like, I know chaos and they wake up and play board games together. It's the cutest thing I've ever seen in my life. It was so cute. So we were in the talking stage for a really, really long time, almost, I want to say, like, over half a year maybe. And In November of 2018, I went to the doctor and I had a freak accident where I hit my head at the doctor's office, and I fully lost my memory for, like, a month.

[Hannah]

I'm sorry.

[Talia]

Yeah. What? Oh, my God.

[Hannah]

Wait, you were at the doctor when you had the accident?

[Talia]

It's a. It was a medical malpractice. No, no, no. They did it.

[Mackenzie]

No.

[Talia]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

What did they do?

[Talia]

Okay, so it's side tangent real quick.

[Hannah]

I was sorry, but I do want to know.

[Talia]

It's okay. I was getting a pap smear, and I told the doctor. I was like, this hurts. And she was like, no, it doesn't. You're not a virgin. And I was like, and I'm 20. Yeah.

[Hannah]

How dare you Tell you somebody that what they're saying hurts? Doesn't hurt.

[Talia]

Yeah. And then the little questionnaire that's like, how many pregnancies have you had and how many live births? So I put one, and then I put zero, and she made me explain it, and I hadn't talked about this with anyone. So I'm shaking, telling her about this miscarriage, and then she starts laying into me that I wasn't on birth control. She was being so mean to me. And so I think mix of that and then feeling pain, because I was in a lot of pain, and I've had a past year before, and I was like, this is not it. And she was talking, and I was like, ma'am, I don't feel good right now. And she's like, you're fine. And next thing I knew, I'm on the ground. I had fallen off the table. I had smacked my head. My. My robe came off. I am like, friend of God. And everybody naked on the floor. Sweet. And, oh, wait, there's more. And then I wake up, and the doctor's screaming for help, and the nurse that came in slams open the door, slams my head into the wall. I pass out again, and I finally woke up. They're breaking, like, sticks of ammonia or something under my nose. And when I sat up, I was crying when I was laughing because I was so embarrassed, and I was like, oh, my gosh. Like, I'm naked.

[Hannah]

They didn't probably so overwhelmed.

[Talia]

So overwhelmed. And then they were like, okay, can you get dressed? And I was like, I think so. And I'm crying. I was apologizing. Oh. And then they made me pay my co. Pay. Oh.

[Mackenzie]

Oh.

[Talia]

Yeah, so I did launch a state investigation against them and they're still good.

[Hannah]

So I'm sorry, that, that, that is an important tangent though. I've got things.

[Talia]

It's just part of my lore, you know, that's dramatic. So, yeah, at this point, I was waking up on a Saturday and I'm like, oh, it's Monday, I'm late for work. And then I was talking to Liam. Liam's like, no, it's Saturday. And I ended up going to the er. And they were like, you have a severe head injury, you're concussed. It was a whole, whole thing. But I only knew one other person with a head injury and that was Finn. And so I reached out to Finn. At this point, it's been about a year. I. I also wasn't thinking too much about the past. I was like, I just have these splitting headaches and I don't know if it's Monday or Thursday right now. So I reached out to Finn and I asked him about his tbi and he told me all about his. And then we kind of caught up a little bit. And I'm telling him what's going on in my life. It's like, oh, I have this new job and I have a house and you know, this and that moved out of my parents house. And he suggests that we go on a walk. And I was like, okay, yeah, that'd be kind of nice. Catch up with an old friend. And we're on this walk and we were just catching up and it was really nice. It was, it was kind of nostalgic, seeing an old friend. And I ended up telling him about the abuse that I had endured and the miscarriage. And he is distraught. I remember we were sitting on a river on some rocks and he was like, how could you go through this, like all this stuff? And I was kind of taking it back because I was like, oh, I mean, I don't know, I just did, like, I just, you know, I just. Yeah, like I. I don't know, I didn't really know how to accept sympathy. I guess at the time I was like, to me it was like suffer and then wake up the next day and go to work kind of thing. So, yeah, he was really upset about it and I told him like, how it made me feel about being a mom. And he was very sweet. He was saying nice things. It was definitely appreciated in the moment because I did. I didn't talk about it at all since, basically since it happened. I didn't talk about it with friends or Definitely not at home, because I was still living with my parents at the time that happened. So I just bottled it up, shoved it down, try not to think about it, didn't talk about it. And then finally being able to say it out loud and someone seeing that it was an actual awful thing that I had gone through, but just felt very good to be seen, just totally seen in that moment. So at this point, we start casually texting again. Like, just here and there. It's nothing flirty. It's just updating each other on our lives. And it was just friends at that point. Me and Liam, we're still talking, and Finn texts me, and he's devastated that I'm talking to Liam, and he's like, I didn't know you two were gonna date, because I had told him about him. But I was like, I. I don't know, man. Like, anything can happen. And I've been talking to this guy for, I want to say, like, six or seven months at this point. And Finn's feelings are just super hurt. So we stopped talking after that, which brings us to, like, mid-2019, kind of into 2020. And at this point, me and Liam, we've been dating for about a year. We move in together. We got a dog, so we have, like, the life, you know? So I'm having a ball. I'm having a great time. This relationship, it's super, super healthy. I want to say around maybe, like, August of 2019ish, I go to a bar with my sister and some friends, and I run into Finn. So we see each other again. It's been six, eight months at this point, and we just run into each other. And once again, it is just like old friends reconnecting. We give each other, like, the biggest hug, and we're telling each other about our lives. We're, like, talking over the music. I was with a different group of friends this time, and they. They seem to like him. And I was like, okay, well, he's not being a stage five clinger right now, so that's good. It was just. It was a super fun night, and I want to. It was almost like amnesia seeing him. It was like, I forgot the weird. And then I would just remember the really fun. Like, I'd remember my getting a tattoo.

[Mackenzie]

You want another one? But, yeah, how much?

[Hannah]

Oh, my God, that's perfect.

[Talia]

Podcast done. Perfect.

[Hannah]

Send it out.

[Talia]

And. But, like, for me, it was like I would see him, and I'm like, all of a sudden, I'm 19, dancing on a trash can again. Or, you know, and it was just a really fun time in my life. And so I just.

[Hannah]

And also, just you were saying this. I don't know, we had a bathroom break, y'all, but you were saying how in this podcast and this happens a lot. Like, we only hear the points that are bad. And you and Finn had a history, a decent friendship that was, like, really fun. And. And also you hooked up a lot. Like, you have a. Like a good. There's a lot of good stuff we're not remembering.

[Talia]

I just remember always, like, laughing and dancing with him. And then it's like, oh, man, you had to be weird. Like, come on, ruin it.

[Hannah]

Mackenzie. I've been using this app called Paired, and I want to tell you about it because it's really cute and really good for couples.

[Talia]

Oh, yeah? Yeah.

[Mackenzie]

I love Paradise.

[Hannah]

Okay, so you guys have to get it if you're in a relationship because it helps you guys in a cute way stay connected. And as we know, relationships are full time jobs. They take work.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, they are.

[Hannah]

Paired is an app that facilitates you and your partner every day having a. A set of personalized questions, quizzes, or games that prompt you to stay connected and have great conversations. I pulled mine up and I was like, I'm going to tell you guys a few of the good ones that we've done lately. There was one that said it was just open ended. Share a photo of John that makes you feel cute. Aggression. I love that. Yeah. And then you're like, oh, I want to find a good picture. And I. We both ended up sending pictures of the other person with dogs. So obviously we're dog people. And then some of them are a little more, like, practical. There was one that was like, money habits, and it was a quiz and it was like, I'm satisfied with the way we managed our money this month. And both of us were like, meh, we could have done a little better. And then some of it is about sex or intimacy. Some of it is about how you share, like, emotion. Like, you can literally answer these quizzes and then share the responses with each other in a way that kind of prompts conversation. Because there have been some where we're like, oh, I didn't expect that. I thought. Would have thought you would say the other thing. Like, why did you pick that? And it really just makes the time to connect and learn how to communicate better. And you could discuss difficult topics. Maybe you don't want to bring up a financial thing, but you get the quiz to talk about your money habits. And it Kind of sets the tone for something that might feel awkward. Maybe talking about family, whatever. It's just nice to have something that prompts you that mix in that communication with send me a picture of you with a cute dog. You know what I mean? It's really sweet. And you learn new things about each other because sometimes the quizzes, well, I don't know, just spice up your relationship.

[Mackenzie]

In general and spark conversation that you might not have had before.

[Hannah]

Totally. And everybody should try it, especially in this world of dogfish. Because if someone's resistant to answering questions about themselves, it's not necessarily a deal breaker, but it's something to ponder.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

In my opinion. So whether you're just a few dates in or you've been together for a long time, I think you should find the time to connect with your partner and nourish your relationship. And start the year off right with the paired app. It's easy and fun and it only takes five minutes a day. So head to paired.comdingdetectives to get a seven day free trial and 25% off if you sign up for a subscription. Just head to p a I-R-E-D.com datingdetectives to sign up today. Okay, so you're having a great night.

[Talia]

So we're having a great night. And then he meets Ashley that night and then they start dating. I don't really know their history too much. I was like in the vicinity when he met her. I didn't like, see the sparks flying or whatever, but I was like, that's awesome that you met this girl at the bar. And she seemed, from what you told me, and I saw pictures of her, she seemed so sweet. She seemed to just love him. Like, he would tell me stories about her and I was like, she's a little wife. She loves you. And that's awesome. So he bought a house at some point and they eventually moved in together. And at this point, me and him, like, since that night, we're just catching up here and there. And he's telling me all about his wonderful life with her. And I'm like, this is my wonderful life. And we're like, yay. We have wonderful lives. Like, that's awesome. And we're just super happy for each other. But we never saw each other in person. I think when he was dating Ashley, I had only seen him maybe once or twice in person maybe. And at this point, he had gotten really into fitness. And he told me that he started doing steroids. I don't know anybody who does steroids? So I didn't. I don't know. At the time, I didn't know the difference between, like, natural and steroids. I didn't know anything. But he sent me a picture of his new house. I can't really remember why. And he was standing in front of it, and I remember opening the picture, and I was like, whoa. Like, not. Not like, it was like, whoa. Like, yeah. Like, I was like, what? Like, it just. It was his face on this large body.

[Hannah]

I know exactly what you're talking about, where you're like, wait, that head is too small.

[Talia]

Yeah. I was like, those are your eyes. But I. I was not into. His neck was like a freaking ham. And I was not into it, but I was like, hey, that. That's Ashley's man. That is her man. And I'm just a supportive friend. Okay?

[Hannah]

Yes, he can do what he wants with his body.

[Talia]

He can do.

[Hannah]

She can do what she wants with his body.

[Talia]

And so, like I said, just super casual. And he expresses to me that he wants to go to therapy. I don't know if it was, like, the steroids giving him a ton of emotions or. Or what, but that was one thing too. When we had first become friends, we connected over a lot, was we would just confide in each other a lot more than I did with other people. You know, if, like, I said something that was slightly vulnerable, he would say things that were way more vulnerable. So if I said one thing that was vulnerable, he's saying five things that are vulnerable. So then it was helping me open up. And so then every time we texted, we pretty much were just being very vulnerable with each other. It was never like, hey, what's up? What are you doing? What's going on today? It was always some deep emotions, so we were very comfortable talking about emotions. And he wanted to start going to therapy. He's talking about all these big feelings he's having. And I had just started going to therapy, and I had this phenomenal therapist. And I was like, here's his number. You should start seeing him. He's amazing. Life changing. And so I told him about it, and I was like, you're gonna love this guy. He's like, the best therapist. And so he starts seeing this therapist. So we kind of bond over this. Liam was a very practical human, so talking about emotions wasn't really his strong suit. And he was very aware of this. His family was kind of the same way. So I. I got it. But I was like, cool, I can talk to Finn about this. We have the same therapist. I'd be like, oh, in this session, the therapist said this. He'd be like, in my session, he said this. And so it was just kind of like a. Just a little thing to bond over, you know?

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Talia]

And at some point, did Liam care.

[Hannah]

That you were talking about it with Finn, or did he not know or he's kind of like, not his thing.

[Talia]

I think, because I wasn't talking about it with Liam. Like, I wasn't like, emotions. He was like, okay.

[Hannah]

He was like, good, as long as you're not making me sit through.

[Talia]

Yeah. And Liam knew too. Like, he knew Mayan Finn's past as well. But, yeah, like I said, he was a little older. And he was like, I mean, you guys good? And I was like, I think we're good. And he's like, okay. You know, so very, like, more grown up than I was definitely at that time. And four years doesn't seem like a lot, but when you're in your early 20s and they start to hit their late 20s, the age gap started showing a little bit.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Talia]

Liam's like, more wanting to settle down, be established. And I'm like, let's move to Thailand and live in a hut for a little bit. Like, let's go. But he was like, I already did that. So that's where we started. There's a little bit of friction with me and Liam. So in comes Finn saving the day, and we're talking about therapy and feelings and emotions. And one day he confides in me. He's like, I want an open relationship. And I was like, does Ashley want an open relationship?

[Hannah]

Fabulous question.

[Talia]

Yeah. And I was like, do you both know about the open relationship kind of thing? And he's like, yeah, she's on board. And I was like, is she, though? Because this girl, like, seemed to love him, absolutely adored him. And I was like, I feel like if she's agreeing to it, it's because she doesn't want to lose you kind of thing. And I was like, mull it over with the therapist. He's the one charging you, not me. So he's a personal trainer at this point, and he's around all these girls at the gym, and he's, you know, looking at all their bodies and blah, blah, like, all that kind of gross stuff. And he's like, oh, I saw this girl at the gym and, you know, really want to hook up with her kind of thing. And then he's like, you know what? I think it's my steroids. Like, My sex drive is absolutely insane. Yeah. And I was like, okay, all right.

[Hannah]

It makes sense, but it's not cool.

[Talia]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

Like, don't cheat.

[Talia]

And I was like, stop taking them. And he was like, no, he loved how he looked. And I was like, okay, dude, you're gonna have to figure it out with her. I don't know. So I. I don't really remember how that all ended, but there was one day he texted me, and he was like, hey, I want you to meet Ashley. You and I are such good friends. You two should meet. And I was like, all right. I could use more girlfriends. All of my girlfriends live in different states and cities. And I was like, I really could use girlfriends. So I was like, perfect. I want to meet her. Also, I know she knows that me and him are texting a lot. I just want to, you know, I don't know, ease her mind or something.

[Hannah]

Yeah. You're like, I know how I would feel.

[Talia]

Yeah. So my cousin Dylan, he enters the chat again. So Dylan invited me and a bunch of friends to the lake. And then Finn and Ashley were going. So we were like, perfect. This is an opportunity for me and Ashley to meet. So I go to the lake. Liam couldn't go this day. I don't remember why, but I was there before Finn and Ashley. And then I just hear, like, running behind me. And I turn around, and Finn's running up to me. He gives me the biggest hug, and I'm like, oh, hi. And so we hug, and then I see Ashley, and I just immediately go up to her. I try to give her the biggest hug. I'm like, hi. You know Talia. Nice to meet you.

[Hannah]

I'm a girl's girl.

[Talia]

I'm like. And she just looks so sad. She looked so sad. And it was breaking my heart for her. I was like, did, like, someone die like this?

[Mackenzie]

Like, are you okay?

[Talia]

Yeah. And she was being very polite, but it was like a very sad polite. Like, I was like, oh, Finn told me you're doing this, this, this. And she's like, yeah. And I'm like, that's so exciting. And she's like, yeah. And I was like, oh, man, this girl does not like me. And that's okay. I get it. So let me just really try to hang out with her. So I'm trying to hang out with her, but Finn, he's hovering. He's doing what he does. Little helicopter over here.

[Hannah]

And you are to her. To both, kind of.

[Talia]

To both of us. But if I'm saying something, he's Laughing. And I'm like, don't laugh at what I say. I'm not funny.

[Hannah]

Not talking to you.

[Talia]

Yeah, I was like. I was like, laugh at Ashley. Like, she's funny. Oh. And a group of her friends just happened to be there, and she walked over to them, and I pull Fin aside. I'm like, is everything good? And he's like, oh, she's just upset. Today she was really insecure to meet you. And I was like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. I don't want that. So I call Liam, and I'm like, hey, babe, can you come to the lake today? Can you just come out today and show face, I guess, like, his boyfriend? Yeah.

[Mackenzie]

Like, hey, like, I'm taking. Don't worry about it.

[Talia]

Yeah. So I was like, let me get Liam out here, direct all my focus to him, and let Finn and Ashley have a lake day. So Liam gets there, and then Ashley ends up leaving, and Finn does not go with her. And I am telling him, like, she's walking away. And I was like, get in the car. Yeah, in the car with your woman right now. I was like, this is not good. And he's like, I just really want to hang out with you guys. I haven't seen you guys in so long. And blah, blah, blah. And I was like, no, this sucks, man. For her. Go get your girl. And he's like, oh, I don't. I don't think she really wants me to. So are you new here, fella? Yeah, I was like, she.

[Hannah]

He really doesn't. He's like, a little, like, alien vibe where he's, like, nude at the earth sometimes.

[Talia]

Thank you.

[Hannah]

That's exactly it, buddy. Come on.

[Talia]

Yeah. How do I. Emotion. But not like that.

[Hannah]

Like, well, poor thing.

[Talia]

Yeah. So me and Liam, and we're about to leave, and then Finn's like, I need to find a ride home. No one wants to give him a ride home. History is repeating itself. And I was like, start driving a man. You're gonna never have a ride home. His friends don't really want to take him home. They're irritated with him because they're like, your girlfriend just left. Me and my cousin, we go talk separately. And he's like, everyone's annoyed with him because of. He's just flirting with you. And I was like, I don't know what to do about this. I was like, I don't know if it's flirting or if he's being friends. I don't know how to get him to stop. I feel like I'm very clear. Like, Liam's here. I don't really know what to do, because over text, it was like, just two buddies texting. It never came off as flirty. But then in person, I was like.

[Hannah]

Dude, there's still something going on with this guy.

[Talia]

Yeah. So none of his friends want to give him a ride home again. And so I'm like, hey, Liam, can we give him a ride home? Like, he's going to be somber again.

[Hannah]

I'm just worried about skin cancer.

[Talia]

Yeah. I'm like, I don't think there's enough us spf. So me and Liam gave him a ride home, and we're in 2021 now. Again, casual friendship with Finn. We do not see each other at all. Like, it's just texting buddies here and there. It's like, every few weeks, just kind of, like, catch up. How's therapy? You know, what's going on? He's texting me a lot about his relationship problems. So him and Ashley, they are having a really hard time with the whole open relationship thing. So he's, you know, taught me his relationship, like, all his woes. And I'm trying to be a good friend because he talks about depression a lot, and I grew up with a lot of underlying depression. I didn't know it was depression, though. I just thought I was like, oh, man, I'm sad again kind of thing. So I was just being there for him again. It wasn't an everyday thing. That was like, every couple weeks, like, what's going on? And at this point in my life, I want to say it's like, middle 2021, Liam is not affectionate anymore. So we're in that phase at this point. We're kind of just roommates. And I was not taking that very well. I was doing everything in my power to make it work. He wasn't very interested, so I was struggling with that. And then with Finn talking about him and Ashley, it kind of opened the door for me to talk about my relationship. It's not right. I know that. But at the time, I'm like, this is my outlet. And me and Liam, we're the it couple. I can't let people know, you know, I don't want people to know that my boyfriend Liam, who is this fantastic human being, doesn't really want me anymore. You know, that was a. I don't really know how to explain it further than that, but I just. I just didn't want people to know.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, well, it's embarrassing, and it takes a hit on your pride.

[Talia]

Yeah. And at this point, he came from a big Christian family and he wanted kids. He really wanted kids. And as a way. And this is just so silly, looking back on it, as a way to kind of lash out, I would be like, well, I don't want kids. Which is not gonna make. Looking back, I'm like, that's not gonna make him stay. But I was just trying to. I wanna say I was trying to get a reaction out of him. Sure. Yeah. For him to be like, I want kids with you. That's what I wanted to hear. And I know that now, but that's what I wanted to hear because we're like three, almost four years in at this point. And I'm like, we don't even talk about marriage. Like, what's going on? I'm trying to bring it up. And he's like. So I was just pushing. I'm like, just trying to get a reaction. Really dumb.

[Mackenzie]

Looking back, we can all relate 100%, please.

[Talia]

Yeah. I was like, my affection's not working. So plan B, I guess.

[Mackenzie]

I mean, that tracks. I get it. Been there. I'm guilty.

[Talia]

Thank you. Thank you for validating. You are not alone.

[Hannah]

I so get it.

[Talia]

So, yeah, this. At this point, me and Finn were talking a lot more about the relationship woes. And I feel like I can't talk to Liam about these things because I would be like, hey, you know, let's talk about us. And he'd be like, we're good. And that was the most I was getting out of him. So no outlet, except for Finn. Didn't want to tell anyone else. Didn't want to ruin my perfect bubble of a life that I had. And another thing too is Finn. I started telling him about my spirituality, like my manifesting and my. Just my cute little things. I was doing my journaling, and Liam was very uninterested in this. He was not open minded to it. Like, I said, he was Christian, which is totally okay. But even like my manifesting, he's like, you know, silly little journal wishes kind.

[Hannah]

Of thing that doesn't feel good. It's something that means something to you. Even if he doesn't do it, you should still be respectful.

[Talia]

Yeah. And I don't know, just humor me a little bit. But Finn, on the other hand, he's like, oh, tell me about manifesting. Tell me about this, tell me about that. And once again, he kind of like slithers his way into being that friend and unmet needs. I was just. I was on the Mackenzie's tongue.

[Mackenzie]

Unmet Needs.

[Talia]

Yep. Everything I felt like I was lacking, he would come and be that for a little bit. And in different ways. Like, I'm like, you know, I'm not feeling affection at home. And he's like, you're great. You're an awesome person. You're successful and stuff. So at some point in 2021, I want to say more. Beginning. Liam, me and him, we get in an argument about the kids again, and he's like, you know what? I want kids, and I'm having them no matter what. And that. That dug deep for me, just with, like, my past issues. And I remember I was so taken aback, and I was like, do you not love me anymore? And he looks at me and he says, I don't love you anymore. And I think we should break up. And I was crushed. Like, devastated. Crushed all the things. Because it was rough. Because when I first started talking to Liam, I told him my biggest fear is getting married or something. And then one day, that person's like, I don't love you anymore. You know? And I just was devastated. I was like, oh, my God. Like, it. It happened, you know? And we ended up working it out. He left that night, but he comes home and he's for the first time, bawling his eyes out. And he's like, I'm so sorry. I did not mean it like this and that. And so we kind of worked it out, but it was just not the same after that. I could not get that out of my head. So we're just at this point again, we're just kind of roommates. And there was one night where Finn came over, and we're just hanging out. And I remember we went to my little yard. We're just having fun and playing music, whatever, and we're talking about our lives again, like we always did. And he starts complaining about his sex life. And I was just being a good ear for that because I was like, I'm not gonna talk about mine, but if. I guess if you wanna talk about.

[Mackenzie]

Yours, but go nuts. Yeah.

[Talia]

Yeah. I was like, pop off, King. So he's talking about his sex life and he's complaining with Ashley. Or is this open okay with Ashley? Yeah. So he's still on this open relationship train. And he looks at me at one point and he's like, I just. I'm just not attracted to her anymore. And I was like, oh, come on.

[Hannah]

She's so cute.

[Talia]

She really is. Like, she's so cute. And that's not fair. And I don't know. And he Just starts going on and on. He's like, you know my dream girl? And he, like, look gives me, like, an up and down. He's like, you're my dream girl. And I was like, you're gonna have to go. You're gonna have to leave my house. You did it again. So that night, it was a very calm exit. I was like, you gotta go, man. Like, there's photos of me and Liam all over the wall.

[Mackenzie]

He made it weird. It's not cool.

[Talia]

Made it weird. So, yeah, I kick him out, and I tell him to leave. And I'm like, okay, we need you. Me are gonna be friends. We need firmer boundaries. You need boundaries with Ashley, this poor girl. And he's like, okay, I promise. I was weird. I'm like, I was weird. And so now we're towards the end of 2021, in the summer of 2021, I just joined the military. I decided I was gonna join the military, just all willy nilly. Literally, as willy nilly as it could be. I. It was the reserves, and me and Liam had started a plan. We were moving to Florida, and last minute, I pulled out, and I was like, it's because I want to join the military. And then I was like, oh, now I have to go. Wait, wait.

[Hannah]

Oh, my gosh.

[Talia]

It was so.

[Hannah]

You kind of were scared of the future with Liam and kind of.

[Talia]

I just think.

[Hannah]

Was that what it was?

[Talia]

In reality, he was. At this point, he's like, almost our late 20s, maybe almost 30, and he had a degree. I didn't. He had this business job, and I'm just kind of riding his coattails. And I was like, I don't know it. When I say I blurted it, I blurted it. Like, I do not have military family. I. I'm not military at that time, especially, so I don't know where that came from. But once it came out, I was like, clearly my soul is talking, so I'm gonna join the reserve. So you went balls to the wall.

[Mackenzie]

Good for you.

[Talia]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

Balls committed to the bit.

[Talia]

But, you know, they say, like, fake it till you make it. Yeah. And. And then I made it, and I was like, oh. Like, oh, no, here we are. And he was, I think, as supportive as his emotional range allowed for. But for me, it just. It wasn't enough. Like, I would be like, hey, are you gonna write me every day? And he was like, every day? Like, that's a lot. Yeah, that's a lot. A lot of paper, you know? I was like, oh.

[Hannah]

Finn's like, yeah, I Bought all of staples.

[Talia]

I'm ready to write you, non Stone. Yeah.

[Mackenzie]

Finn took out a franchise loan.

[Talia]

He actually promised to write me every single day. He promised, right? Every day.

[Mackenzie]

That track.

[Talia]

Yeah. Took out his loan, got his paper. He was so supportive, though. Like, absolutely was so supportive. And it was really cool. He was so proud of me. And that felt awesome because even my own family, like, my parents were like, huh. So we're. At this point, we're texting a lot more frequently. We're still not seeing each other in person. Like, we. We didn't see each other in person. I don't even remember last time, honestly. And he's still talking about his relationship woes, this godforsaken open relationship that's not working. And he's just. At this point, he's like, you know, I don't think I'm monogamous, and I don't think monogamy works. And he's like, don't. Like, don't you agree? You. You agree with me? Especially after the whole Liam telling me he didn't love me anymore thing. And the way I view it is like, Flynn was, like, planting little baby seeds. Like, I don't believe in monogamy. You and me are so alike. I know you better than anyone in the world kind of thing. But at this point, I'm like, I hate to say it. I was listening. I was like, yeah, I guess I. I never did really think about monogamy, and maybe marriage isn't for me because, you know, my worst fear was con confirmed. So maybe I don't belong in a marriage someday.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Talia]

And Finn's just kind of like. I just imagine like. Like the. The witch from Snow White. That's like, yes, like, my precious. Then one day, Ben tells me he finally did the open relationship thing, and he slept with a girl named Izzy, and Ashley dumped his ass. She left him. She took the dog. She.

[Mackenzie]

She wasn't in the open relationship, only he was.

[Hannah]

He forgot to tell her about it.

[Talia]

But, yeah, he was like, oh, I want to say that's exactly what happened.

[Hannah]

Oh, my God. He was like, no, I was gonna tell you. I'm. I told you.

[Mackenzie]

We're in an open relationship.

[Hannah]

Oh, I was supposed to get laundry. I was supposed to get gas.

[Talia]

Yeah, it was on my list.

[Hannah]

I just didn't get to it.

[Talia]

And I was like, this poor girl, Ashley, I'm so bad for her. And on Instagram, she made it so that I unfollowed her. And so I was like, did I do something? And he's like, no, no, no. It's all because this girl, Izzy, it's. I. Like, I'll reassure you. And she just did this with all my friends, and I was like, I mean, okay. I don't know her. To reach out to her. I think it'd be weird if I did. Regardless. So that happens, he starts dating Izzy, and she is. She's a beautiful girl. She was a very pretty girl. Again, same thing. She seemed to really, really love him. I was like, that's. That sounds great. Like, good for you. So now we are towards the end of summer, IDsummer, maybe, of 2021. And one day, George, if you remember him, my high school sweetheart.

[Mackenzie]

Yes.

[Talia]

Oh, boy.

[Hannah]

High school sweetheart who was deployed.

[Talia]

Yes. He calls me out of the blue, and he tells me that Chris died. So Chris was his best friend. The one that. It was devastating. It was. That was my first friend that had passed away that I knew on that level. So.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, man. I'm so sorry.

[Talia]

It. Thank you. It was. I was a wreck. It was awful. And I was home alone because Liam was on. I think he was on, like, a family vacation or something. And I called Liam, and I was bawling my eyes out. I was alone at home. And I'm like, liam, come home. And he's like, I don't really want to, like my family. We're going to the beach later, kind of thing. So I tell him. I was like, you know, George is the one that called this and that. And then I tell him. So everyone. It was a very, very, very small group of us who knew. I want to say, I don't know, four people that knew initially. And I told Liam. I was like, I'm going to George's house. I am unwell here. And so at this point, George had gone out of the military, and he bought a house in our same city. We didn't see each other really, but, like, I knew he was back, so I went to his house. Yeah. So I go to George's house, and Liam comes back to town. And then the funeral's coming up, and Liam's like, oh, I don't think I'm gonna go with you, because I didn't know him. And I was like, I get that, but you know me to be supportive. Yeah. So that. The. The funeral process. I had a lot of time to start. I was, like, talking to George a lot. We were, like, very much comforting each other because Liam. Liam's just, I don't know, fishing or hunting or something, and George is. We. It definitely became an emotional affair. 100%. Like, I. I hate even admitting it. It makes me just sad, but that's what it was. And we were just, like, heavily relying on each other and went to the funeral. Liam didn't want to go, so I went with George. And so we became very close again. And 100% was total emotional. Like, it was just entangled.

[Hannah]

There's still feelings.

[Talia]

Yeah. So I leave for boot camp in October of 2021. Thank the Lord. Needed to get out of town, and I can't really explain it, but I was on. So when you go to boot camp, they put you on this, like, little white shitty bus, and it's like, you know, the scariest moment of your life, and you're going to boot camp. And I took that time to take out my phone. I had this, like, fem tuition feeling. I don't know how to explain it. And I just deleted Finn's number, and I was like, no more. What? I don't want this person in my life anymore. Just randomly, just randomly. And that was, like, the last thing I did with my phone before I went to boot camp. So.

[Hannah]

Wow.

[Talia]

I don't know why the heavens. Or someone was like, just delete this guy's number. Come on, girl. So I did. We didn't talk at all while I was there. He didn't write me any letters. So a couple months pass. I think we're like February 2022 now. So I'm away from home. I'm stationed somewhere else for a little bit before I come home. Because the Reserves is, like, you do all your training, and then you come home, you have your civilian job, and then you do your drill weekends and all that.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Talia]

So I'm away from home, and Liam is emotionally unavailable to level a thousand at this point. We barely talk. He's not calling me very much. He's busy. So we are just, like, drifting, drifting, drifting. Just completely drifting at this point.

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Talia]

I hadn't told him. I'll be 100% honest. I hadn't told him about how entangled me and George got after the funeral and all that stuff. So in a. In a weird way, it was, like, annoying me that I was like, I want to tell him because this man is so emotionally unavailable. Like, I want to tell him, but.

[Mackenzie]

To bring up some kind of emotion.

[Talia]

Yeah. I was like, hey, come on, man.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Talia]

And that's. And that's where, like. And I know there's in the beginning parts of the story, this first half. I know there's parts where I could have Done better. And these are one of those parts. Like, this is a part where there's. So I'm very aware now, but in the moment, I didn't know how to, you know, regulate my emotions and all that, so.

[Hannah]

Yeah, no, it's. It's part of all these stories to make mistakes, and everybody's navigating life like nobody. There's no perfect victim. First of all, that whole concept is annoying, and then also, it's just life, like, that happens.

[Talia]

So at this point, not. Not entirely proud of everything I was doing, but it is part of the story. So I had a lot of time to think in boot camp, so I was thinking about what kind of life I want, what kind of partner I want, where do I want to go now, and all this stuff. And one of the things I wanted to work on is that I wanted to make amends with people. So guess who I reached out to.

[Mackenzie]

No, you didn't.

[Talia]

How?

[Mackenzie]

You deleted his phone number.

[Talia]

I did delete his number, and I.

[Hannah]

Think I was never really gone.

[Talia]

Yeah. And so I. Well, I reached out to him on Facebook, and I was like, hey, you know, I went to boot camp back in October, and it's February now, and this is how I'm doing. I hope you're doing well. I hope you and Izzy are well. And he didn't respond right away. It was actually a couple weeks later, I think, because we didn't follow each other on Instagram anymore. It went to requested or something. And so at this point, I had kind of forgotten that I messaged him. And he responds, and he's like, oh, my gosh, I'm so happy to see your name on my phone. And we start immediately catching up. He's like, I want to hear all about it. And I'm like, I want to hear about you and Izzy. And, like, they got a dog and she moved in, and they're, like, madly in love and all this stuff. And he also apologizes. He tells me at this point he had gone sober, and he just seemed totally different, like, very grown up. And I was like, okay, more mature, maybe. Yeah, like, more mature. And I was like, you seem to really, really like this girl.

[Hannah]

And, like, maybe there's a world where we can be friends and you won't be weird. Weird anymore.

[Talia]

Yeah. You won't be a little alien.

[Hannah]

And so can I ask, like, just what. Like, what do you think maybe brought you back to reaching out to him? Other than, I mean, I guess, making.

[Mackenzie]

A mess because she knows how much he liked her. Like, that There's a comfort in that.

[Hannah]

That could be.

[Talia]

This is like therapy talk here. When people know chaos, they just gravitate towards chaos. Yeah.

[Mackenzie]

Yes. When it's. It's familiar. Familiar is safe. Even if it's safe.

[Talia]

Yes. At that time, though, I had no drama in my life. I had no problems. I had nothing. But I was just. Let me text Finn and apologize and make amazing.

[Hannah]

Oh, I get it.

[Talia]

Yeah. So I think because there is no chaos in the back of my mind, I was like, let's go. But I didn't. I didn't even want it to go. I had no intentions of it going further than just, you know, hey, how are you? Whatever. But naturally, we start talking again, and we're texting. It's very few and far between. Like, it's not a lot and everything. He tells me his life is centered around Izzy, and I'm like, that's amazing. So I get home, and me and Liam break up. Like, day two, we break up. And it was 100 coming. And even before I had gotten home, my sister started. She was like, hey, if you guys don't work out, you can move in with me. So I knew. I have a plan in case.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, a plan.

[Talia]

Yeah. So I came home, and we broke up. And it. It made sense. It really did. I move in with my sister and my niece, and my niece is, like, five at this time. And I. At this point, I'm the alien. Like, I felt so weird and alienated from just going through this extreme lifestyle for X amount of months and then coming home, and now I'm getting my niece ready for school in the morning.

[Mackenzie]

Sure.

[Talia]

Everything was so ingrained and fresh in me still, that I just. I just couldn't. I had a hard time adjusting in terms of emotionally connecting with people. So what I did. I had stopped going to therapy at this point, and instead of taking the time to heal from my breakup, I filled every minute of my time with. I just started adventuring. Like, if I got sad, I'd book a ticket. I was like, I'm. I'm gonna take a flight. And I was spending so much of my life in airports at that point, because I was like, I can be alone in an airport with my headphones on and been there. Anybody?

[Mackenzie]

Yep.

[Talia]

And I'm like, girl, therapy's cheaper. Like, I have insurance. Like, but I was doing everything. I was. Little misadventure, and I'm having so much fun. But I'm also. Anytime. Like I said, anytime I got sad, I'm like, book flight. Like, let's go. Let's do it. So some time passes, and then I meet this guy, and this is not romantic. So I meet this friend, Steve, through the military, and he becomes, like, a really, really good friend of mine. And being his friend was really fun because he had been in the military for longer than I had, so I was learning from him. But the only problem with Steve was he was a raging alcoholic. Raging alcoholic. But I'm like, I can fix him. You know, I can.

[Mackenzie]

I've been there, done that.

[Talia]

Yep. And. And this. It was completely friendly. And I made that very clear from the beginning. And at this point, too, I had met a guy named Ed. And Ed, I also met him through the military, but he was stationed across the country, basically. And Ed is transgender. So he is. Was born female, and he trans. Was transitioning to male. And so we started doing long distance. And this was my first experience with that. I, like, I'm straight. But when I was figuring that all out, everybody. The main question, everyone's like, what's your sexuality? You know? And I was like, I don't know.

[Hannah]

Like, I don't know. I like it.

[Talia]

I like. I was like, I like it. My sexuality is Ed.

[Hannah]

Like, period.

[Talia]

And so that was actually love that. That was a kind of a challenging time in my life with my parent. Like, my parents were not on board at all. A lot of people were more curious about it than they should have been. So I was having, like, really weird conversations and then having to be like, all right, guys. Like, I'm uncomfortable now. Ed, though, he was an angel. Like, truly. I always told him, when God made you, he poured everything into you. You are. He was such a sweetheart. And Finn, at this point, I had told Finn about him, and Finn's like, that's awesome. He wasn't the one asking.

[Hannah]

He was supportive.

[Talia]

Yeah, he's not asking the same questions that other people are asking. He's actually just supporting me, you know? And so that was. Again, he was being the friend, you know? So that was really, really nice. And it just. It really, really seemed like he had totally turned a new leaf. And I had told Ed about Finn and Finn about Ed, and Ed wanted to meet him and vice versa and, you know, kumbaya. Right. And then towards the end of summer, I start school again, and then I can't just buy plane tickets when I'm sad anymore, so I. And.

[Hannah]

But you guys are still doing long distance, right?

[Talia]

Yeah. So I start school, and since I can't distract myself anymore, I start getting very depressed, like, Severely depressed. And this is where I kind of just want to give, like, a blanket trigger warning for depression. But it is huge part of the story, and I didn't want to axe it out. So now I am, like, secretly depressed. I'm not telling anybody. And early in the year, as wonderful and great as Ed was, it starts to get a little rocky. We're not seeing each other as much. So he's calling me a lot more. That was, like, smothering me a little bit. A lot of it. And I'm also a student and I'm taking a billion classes. I'm working my full time civilian job, and then I'm doing drill weekend. So it's a lot. I had a lot going on. And I would ask Ed. I'm like, hey, so what are you gonna do when you get out of the military? And he's like, whatever you want. And I was like, oh, okay. But, like, what? And he's like, I could get, you know, a part time job and go move where you are. And I was like, oh, boy.

[Hannah]

No, like, it's more attractive when people have their own stuff.

[Talia]

Yeah. I was like, okay, I, I, I can't mother right now. I can't be like, you need to go to school and use your school benefits, you know? So I'm talking to Finn a lot about these problems where I was very gentle to Ed and to Finn. I'm talking to him more like a friend and complaining. So not venting. I don't want to say complaining, because Ed, he truly was an angel. But I was like, come on, man. Like, he doesn't have a plan. And. And Finn's like, yeah, you know, with me being a homeowner. And he's like, yeah, and I have my own business. And he's just doing that thing again where he's like, sprinkling in little good things. Yeah.

[Hannah]

Don't you wish your boyfriend was. What's that song? I'm now like, me, like, was employed and yeah, like me how to play.

[Talia]

That was a homeowner like me.

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Talia]

And where he was in life, from my viewpoint, because we're. We had only seen each other the fourth of July, so you are doing great, and that's awesome for you. And like, yeah, I would someday want. I want to be a homeowner, and I want this and I want that, you know, And Ed just doesn't seem to have that drive that I have. And then Finn's like, can I tell you something about me and Izzy? And then that's kind of that's when it kind of starts again. And he tells me that he started a relationship with one of his clients named Sarah.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, bless. Okay.

[Talia]

He starts training Sarah, so she's his client, and she tells him she has some traumatic relationship thing. I don't. I don't really remember what it was. And Finn is full blown savior once again. So he's, you know, saving this girl's life even though she didn't ask for it. And he's hanging out with her outside of work and stuff. And Izzy obviously is not cool with this at. At all. And so he's telling me, he's like, I don't know what to do. Like, I really, really like Sarah. And I'm like, leave, Izzy.

[Hannah]

This is very simple. Yeah. If you were with someone and you don't like them anymore, leave. You leave.

[Talia]

Not even. Like, I feel like leave has such a bad connotation. Sure, but leave. But leave. Yeah, like break.

[Hannah]

Break up with them. You're doing them a favor.

[Mackenzie]

Hurt them. Hurt them with the truth.

[Talia]

Yeah, yeah.

[Hannah]

Oh, my God. Yeah. It's gonna be bad either way. Do the honest thing. Like, I'm like, nobody wants to be with someone that doesn't want to be with.

[Talia]

And I was like, you're gonna save her pain in the long run. But he's juggling Izzy's pain and then Sarah's trauma. So we are in, like, February 2023 now, and I was going out. Friends, do you know what emo night is, like, gone?

[Hannah]

Is it a night where they play, like, My Chemical Romance at a club?

[Talia]

Yeah, okay.

[Mackenzie]

Okay, I'm familiar.

[Talia]

Okay. So me and my friends, we're going to emo night. And Finn, you know, we're. We're texting back and forth, and he's having all these relationship problems and this and that. And I was like, do you want to just come to emo night? Like, me and my friends are going. We love emo night.

[Hannah]

He's so emo.

[Talia]

Yeah, he's alien emo boy. And he didn't go to emo night, but he made a point to come out after. So we were like, bar hopping after. We're all, like, drunk. We're, you know, have had the best time at emo night. And Finn is sober, so he comes to the bar, and I remember I was like, on this, like, little stage thing, so I was, like, elevated off the ground, and I turned around and we, like, made. He was like, in my face. We made eye contact, and I was doped to see him. And I. To this Day. I can't even pinpoint that feeling. I was so happy to see him. I hadn't seen him since. I want to say, like, July.

[Mackenzie]

Familiar chaos.

[Talia]

Familiar chaos, yeah. And all my friends were like, who the fuck is this guy? And I was so excited to introduce him, and everyone thought he was so cool. So we end up going back to my house that I share with my sister, and he drove because he's sober. And then on the way there, I hadn't ever told him who my emotional affair situation was with, so I told him about it. And then I ended up telling him that it was George. And I don't even know how to explain it. Something shifted in the air. Like, he was like, oh. Like, kind of like. I don't. That's the only way I can explain it. Just something shifted. Didn't think much of it. So I'm like, cool. You know, it was. George. Put that in the past. Whatever. We get to my house, a bunch of the friends came here, and one of my friends that was there, her name was Olivia. So I introduced Olivia and Finn. And Olivia is looking for a personal trainer. So I was like, hey, this, you know, look, there's a personal trainer right here. And he. Freakishly large dude.

[Hannah]

Look at his neck. Yes.

[Talia]

Look at his bangs. Oh, my gosh. Yeah.

[Hannah]

I feel bad making fun of that sort of thing, but it feels different when they, like, elect to take something.

[Talia]

Oh, yeah. You know what I mean? It's like.

[Hannah]

It's like steroids.

[Talia]

Like, you did this. Anyway, and so, yeah, so they meet and they connect, whatever. And at the end of the night, I tell my friends. I'm like, look, guys, I'm gonna go shower. You guys are more than welcome. Pick a room, whatever. Fall asleep here. Or not. Go home. I'm taking a shower. I'm done. And so I get out of the shower, and Finn is in my bedroom laying on the floor. And all the doors, they're open. Everyone's out in the living room. He's just on the floor. And I was, like, just chilling. Yeah. And I'm like, towel on my head, baggy pajamas. I was like, hey, you know? And I was like, I'm getting in bed. And my bed was really high off the ground, so it's kind of awkward. I was like, I can't see you, but I know you're here. And he then at one point, he sits up. He's like, sleep. Steve just walked by, and he looked so pissed. And then I just hear the front door, like, close. And Steve left And I was like, okay, that was kind of weird. Like, whatever. And I was like, why would he be upset? Like, you're on the floor also. What? You know.

[Hannah]

Well, yeah, because Steve's the friend that you don't have any.

[Talia]

He's just the friend.

[Hannah]

Yeah, he's just the friend that's the alcoholic.

[Talia]

Yeah. And I was like, okay, that's kind of a weird detail to include Finn, but okay. And then he sits on the bed, and he's like, I don't think Steve is a good friend to you. Like that. That man's in love with you. And he's like, yeah, I think he's a bad friend. And the way he treats you and he drinks. Because I. I had told him, and I was like, I mean, I. I haven't really thought of if he's a good friend or not. I just. We just enjoy each other's company. Like. So, like I said, he's sitting on the bed. I'm under the covers. And then he lays down, and he's over the covers. And I was like, hello? And I was like, hey, can you leave? Like, I'm really tired. I'm coming down from being drunk. And he's like, oh, I'm tired. You know? And I was like, so am I. Get the out. But I. I don't know. I didn't. At this point, I don't know how to, like, very outwardly kick somebody out. So I was just making like, oh, man, I'm tired, too. And I would start to fall asleep, and he was like, no, no, I want to stay up and talk to you. Like, I'm sorry. Don't ever. Yeah. He's like, we don't ever get to hang out. And I'm, like, hearing people in my house snoring. And I remember the jealousy I felt. I was like, I just want to sleep. And at this point, we're just, like, talking, but we're having good conversations. So it was harder for me to be like, hey, get out. Because then we would have a good conversation. Then I'd be like, okay, you should go. And then he's like, no. You know, so.

[Hannah]

But you didn't feel, like, unsafe. You just were like, no.

[Talia]

Yeah, I was like. It was like, fine. But I still was like, at this point, it's like, early hours. And I'm like, everyone else is sleeping. And then he leaned in for a kiss. Oh, I. Oh. I push him. I was like, nope.

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Talia]

I was like, we're not doing this. And I was like, you need to tell Izzy, like, you need to go home, and you need to tell her right now. Like, I'm not doing this. And he thought I was kidding, and he's. And I was like, no, no, no, no. You're. You need to go home, and you need to tell Izzy. And so then he starts apologizing. He's like, I don't know what came over me and whatnot. So when that happened, I was super taken aback, and it kind of felt like Coachella again, where I was like, no, no, you don't feel this way. You're just confused right now, because with him being sober and stuff, he hadn't gone out and maybe a year and a half, two years. And so I was like, you're just excited. We just were, you know, dancing at bars all night. You just met a bunch of people. You don't know what you're doing, and you're having all these relationship issues at home. I just was. I just chalked it up to him being emotionally confused. And a lot of the time, I would use his brain injury as kind of an excuse for him, because I was like. And this is stuff he said, too. He was like, my brain doesn't work like other people's and stuff. So I was like, I think he takes situations and he twists them a little bit. And so I'm there as the person that's like, no, no, no. It's not like this. So I wasn't angry with him. I was confused. I was pretty confused, actually, because I was like, you have a. We're talking about your girlfriend. And I was like, maybe you're just sad and lonely at home. I don't. I don't really know. So I'm falling asleep. I am actively falling asleep at this point. And he's like, stay up.

[Mackenzie]

Like, stay up.

[Talia]

You know? And this is when the sleep deprivation started. Like, this was.

[Hannah]

I was gonna say, that's manipulative.

[Talia]

Yeah. And this is when that gut Feel like that femtuition. I was like, no, this feels weird because he's. He's saying, I won't let you sleep. And I was like, like, okay, I don't like it. So I stay up all night, and then eventually he goes home. And I'm like, you. Like, you need to tell Izzy. So he goes home. He does tell Izzy. She's pissed, but not at me. She blamed him. Which was. This is. This is all according to him. So I was like, perfect. Like, I didn't. I didn't do anything to give you that impression or anything. So that's fine. But they start to separate over Sarah. So Izzy is not down with the. The whole weird side relationship thing that he has going on with that girl. And so in Finn's life, he and Izzy are breaking up. And in my life, in my home, me and my sister, we start arguing more and more. It started kind of like sister arguments, and we're living together, so it was, like, little things about cleaning. I think me and her were both just extremely tired, extremely stressed, but we weren't explaining this to each other. And then I was very much wanting to eat dinner together every night. I wanted to do everything together, like, clean together, have dinner together, sit in the backyard and sunbathe together, all sorts of things. And she started pulling back, and I. I was really lonely and sad. So then I started bringing Finn over more. And in this time, me and Finn, we actually start hanging out in person more. And this is, like, the first time in our friendship where we're actually hanging out a lot in person. So because there's this rift with me, my sister, he's coming over a lot. And there is this one night he came over, and my niece was having a fit over something. Like she didn't want to go bad or something. And I soothed her, put her to bed. Like, did the whole, you know, turn into an auntie and all that stuff. And I remember I tucked her in, you know, give her a little kiss, and then I came out back to the living room. And Finn was just, like, looking at me with these eyes.

[Hannah]

I want her to be the mother of my children.

[Talia]

That. Yeah, he. I don't like it. I was like, hello. Like, is everything okay? And he's like, you would be the best mother ever. And it, like, shattered me in a way because of all that.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Talia]

Other trauma I had, it, like, shattered that. And I was, like, so taken aback. I was like, I don't know. It just. I don't even know how to explain. It was, like, healing a little bit. That's just how it felt. And he just went on and on and on, was saying, like, the nicest things about what kind of mom I would be. And I was just eating it, eating it up, soaking it up. And mind you, he knew about the miscarriage. He knew everything about all that, and he knew exactly what to say to make me feel really great. And one of a kind, honestly. So another night, he's over, and my sister comes in the living room, and she's like, can you do the dishes like I told you to do them, like, x amount of time. Just. Just a little tiff, you know, and she leaves the room and I'm like, turn back to my homework. I'm like, whatever. And Finn's like, actually, never mind. And I'm like, what? And he's like, nothing. It's not my place. And I was like, oh, here we go. Speak up. Yeah. And he's just like, it's. It's just the way your sister treats you, the way she does this and this. And it's just like you're. Yeah. And he's like, it's just like your parents, like, she's just. She's kind of like your mom. And I was like, huh, I've never thought of it before. But I was also, like I said earlier, I was very depressed during this time and it was getting worse and worse and worse and worse. And I was kind of like, yeah, you're right. I didn't notice. She's being kind of a, you know, I'm looking back, it's like she just wanted me to did dishes. Yeah.

[Hannah]

But he was like using everything he knew about you and your family to be like, hey, you know, you're actually better than them. Or you're actually like, better off with me. That's so real.

[Talia]

Yeah, it was one of those things where he's like, they don't see you, but I do, you know? Yes. And so I. I'm leaning on him more and more, especially with me and my sister drifting. And so I'm spending a lot of time with him. I'm spending less time with Steve because Finn is like, steve's an alcoholic and he's in love with you and XYZ and all this stuff. And I'm like, yeah, you're right, you're right. Like everything he's saying, I'm like, you're right. Yep. So when he leaves my house though, he's texting me all night or calling me, and so I'm not sleeping at all. I was working at 5 o'clock in the morning and up until I started hanging out with him again, I was such a good little noodle. I was going to bed at 8:30 on the dot, turned my phone off kind of thing. And then when I started hanging out with him again, we would text till like nine and then I'd say goodnight and he would be like, oh, no, but I don't want to stop talking yet. And you're just so easy to talk to. And so then, you know, then it'd be 10. And then when I would say, okay, Like, I'm going to bed for real. Then he would call, and that's just kind of how it started. It was very slow. And he would start to say that he was really sad and he had a lot going on. And with how I was feeling, I wanted to be there for him. But on the other hand, too, as I became more and more depressed, falling asleep was harder and harder. So I kind of was putting off falling asleep too, because laying there alone in the dark and just having all these thoughts racing and I was telling him, like, oh, I'm having a harder time falling asleep. But granted, it was like 9 o'clock at night at this point. And then that's when the, you know, he's like, I'll sit with you until you fall asleep. And then they just kept going later and later and later. And then we would get off the phone and then he would text me like, oh, I'm having a panic attack. And so I would just kind of sit up and text him. I was so tired at all times. I just felt like I was floating through life and everything was a blur. So my day of, you know, waking up, it was just a blur until I got off work and then going to the gym, that was a blur. Coming home was a blur. Everything just started meshing together. And all my days were pretty much exactly the same. And I didn't really think of it as sleep deprivation. I was. I just thought I was like, oh, I'm tired. Grown ups are always tired. This is just being a grown up, you know, Ha ha. And it just all started fuzzing together. And so I wasn't. I don't really know how to say this, but I wasn't really in control of my brain like someone who is well rested is. So I wasn't able to stop those really dark, shitty thoughts that I was having. So that was the sleep deprivation, I want to say that was a catalyst that made everything a hundred times worse. I think with the depression I was feeling, I can't say if it was inevitable or not, but I think I would have been able to handle it and control it and use all the, you know, life tools I had gotten from other therapists and stuff to battle those thoughts, but I was just on autopilot at all times. And so I think that the sleep deprivation absolutely was just a catalyst for all of it and made it a hundred, 200, 300 times worse than it actually was.

[Hannah]

You're still with Ed.

[Talia]

I'm still with Ed, but I'm not telling Ed anything about My emotions at all. But he knows I'm hanging out with Finn. And he's. Yeah. And he's like. He's okay with it and stuff. But I wasn't telling him about the depression because I was like, this poor boy is going through it. I think he had started hormones or he was about to, and he was hating where he was stationed, like, all sorts of stuff. And I was like, I'm supposed to be this man's rock, you know? And I was like, I am not. Yeah. And so I was like, I can't come to him with this. He has bigger problems. And I'm just upset because, like, my sissy won't have dinner with me. That's just how I viewed it. I just kept shoving what I needed away over and over and over. And one of the things he was doing during this time, too, is he started telling me that I wasn't good enough for Ed. Like, he was on Ed's side, and he was like, you need to work on yourself before you can be with him. He sounds like such a great guy. Beg pardon? Yeah.

[Hannah]

Thing he has to say.

[Talia]

He's like, scooting my sister away, my parents, and then isolation, and also Steve and then. But with Ed, he's like, he's such a great guy, and he's going through so much, and I just don't think you're ready. So we're in April of 2023 now, and I have a trip planned to go see Ed. And before my Finn comes over and he's like, helping me pack and whatnot. And then he gives me a note. He just gives me this little folded up note. And I was like. And I was like, oh, I'll read this on the plane. He was like, no, no, no. Read it right now. And I was like, like, in front of you? And he's like, yeah, like, I. I want to see you read it. And I just remember, like, feeling super awkward. Like, I was, like, opening the note and reading it, and it is a love letter. It is. I love you. I've always loved you. I know this is wrong because me and Izzy and just this God, like, love letter. That was just a lot.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, but, like, you knew that, right? I mean, I'm not surprised.

[Talia]

I. I was surprised to the extent that this love letter went to. It was like, I want to be with you. And I was like, I thought he just still had his weird little, like, alien crush thing going. If that. Like, if that. And I was like, we're gonna have to talk about that. Later. I have a flight to catch. My flight leaves in, like, two hours. I'm already late to the airport. And he was like, can we talk about it? And I was like, no, no. I'm pretending this didn't happen. I can't right now. I'm so overwhelmed. And I was like, you cannot be doing this. So I pulled up the note, and I, like, chucked it in my closet, and I just get on my flight. I was like, peace out. I don't know what to do right now. And the whole flight was a red eye, and I'm just sitting awake, and I was like, oh, my God. No, no, no, no. Like, you've been such a good friend, and I'm already losing people, and, you know, I'm so depressed. And I was like, I don't know what to do. And I got to where Ed was stationed, and he was like, something's off with you. And I was like, do you think I'm good enough for you?

[Mackenzie]

Oh, no.

[Talia]

And he. That poor guy. Like, the way he looked. Like, what do you, like? What do you mean? I love you. I'm so, so in love with you. I think you're perfect, and blah, blah, blah. And I was like, I don't think I am. Like, I don't think I'm good enough for you. And I was like, I'm not this healed, perfect person. I feel like I have growing. I'm repeating what Finn has told me, what Finn has made me believe at this point. And Ed was like, did Finn tell you this stuff? Like, did Finn. Oh, he called it out. Yeah, he called it out quick. And I was like, well, no, but he just. He, like, knows me so well, and he, you know, kind of has an idea of who I am, and blah.

[Mackenzie]

Blah, blah, concern for me.

[Hannah]

Me.

[Talia]

Yeah. And Ed was like, absolutely the not. Like, no. And after that, he's like, I don't like this Finn guy. I'm. I'm over it. And at the same time, I'm like, wait, wait, wait. But I'm defending Finn, because. No, Finn has my best interest. He would never. You know, he has my best interest in heart.

[Mackenzie]

Y.

[Talia]

So Finn is texting me, and then Izzy moves out that weekend, so he's crying about Izzy, and then he switches it up, and he's livid at me. Like, he's livid that I wrote his note. What? Yeah, for not loving that I. I read his note, and I got on the plane, like, that's what he said. And I was like, this is not a sitcom. I'M not a. Not missing my flight. Yeah. And. And he was like, I can't believe you do that to me. And it's to the point where he's crying so hard, where I'm like, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. And Ed's just sitting on the bed, looking at me like he's seeing right through it. And I was like, no, he's really distraught right now, and I don't know what to do, and it's my fault.

[Hannah]

So wait, so now Ed knows that Finn also professed his love to you.

[Talia]

He didn't know about the note, but he was putting pieces together.

[Hannah]

This guy's into you.

[Talia]

Yeah. And in that moment, too, I was so stressed again with, like, I'm so scared to hurt Ed because he's such an angel. And I also am trying to be there for Finn, who's having a panic attack. He's dizzy. He's, you know, having his head trauma. Stuff's coming up that ended with me being like, I'm so sorry. I'm sorry. Like, my bad. Like, I felt so bad. I was like, clearly I did something wrong to evoke this level of emotion. So I leave Ed's where he's stationed. And he was like, are we breaking up? And I was like, I. I don't know. I was like, I don't have an answer for you right now. I'm battling this depression. I have an alcoholic best friend. I don't talk to my sister. Like, I. This. It was a lot. And I was like. And then I have Finn. And so there's one day he comes under my house, and he wants to talk about the note. And I'm like, I. I don't know what to say. Like, I don't know. And he goes, I know you love me. And I was like, I. I don't think. I don't know. I don't think. I do. Like, I love you like a friend. And, you know, I do enjoy when things are good. I do enjoy hanging out with you. He's like, no, say it. He's like, say it. Say it.

[Hannah]

God.

[Talia]

Say. Goes on like this for about an hour. Oh.

[Hannah]

He, like, wouldn't leave unless you said you loved him.

[Talia]

He. At one point, so we were sitting on my bed, and he gets on top of me, and he's, like, face to face with me. And I'm laying down, and I was, like, kind of like, pulling away. And he's like, say it. Say, like. Like a record. And I At this point, I'm like, I just want to get out of the situation because I'm like, I'm gently pushing him. And I was like, okay, dude. Like, come on. Yeah. I'm telling you, it was like an hour of, like, almost hypnosis looking back. And I said it. I was like, I love you. And he. It was like triumph. He was so happy. And I remember the m. I sat up and I was like, oh, my.

[Mackenzie]

I fuck up, y'all. That is not okay at all.

[Talia]

No. Just.

[Hannah]

No. And also, I feel like. Do you have. I feel like your mental state at that point must have been so weird and fuzzy and confused.

[Talia]

It was shot. Yeah.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

But can you remember what you felt like? Yeah. In that moment?

[Talia]

In that moment, I remember I said, I love you, but in my head, it was like, I just need to get out from under you. This dude's literally huge. And I didn't feel, like, unsafe in the violence way, but I was like, okay, this is like, I feel weird, you know, it's not.

[Mackenzie]

Not unsafe.

[Talia]

Yeah. So I was like, let me just say what you need, just so I can get up, I guess. And I remember sitting up and he was crying. He's so happy. And he is like, I knew it. I knew it. And in my head, all I'm thinking is like, like, oh, my God. Like, I was like, I need to call my therapist right now. So May rolls around and my depression is at an all time high. Like, it is so bad. I am talking to my therapist about everything that's going on. I wasn't telling her I was depressed, but I was telling her everything that was going on with, like, Finn and Ed and all that stuff. And she asked me, she was like, could you ever see yourself with Finn? And I was like, absolutely not. Like, we would end in flames if we were ever together. And I was so guilty that I was like, I told another person I love them when I am dating somebody. I felt disgusting. I could not stop crying. It was the Finns over here on, like, Cloud 9. He's skipping and whistling and lifting weights and being super happy about it. And I felt awful. So, like, I said, this is part of the blanket trigger warning. I hit a point where I made a suicide plan. I was like, I can't do this anymore. And it wasn't even because of Finn. It wasn't because of anything going on. It was just a compilation of everything, like, everything going on. And I made this whole plan and I had this work military mission thing. So it was like two Weeks of training. And so I had this plan. I was like, following weekend or something like that. And I was like, I shouldn't get through this military mission somehow. And me and my sister, we get in a little texting war while I'm out there just to paint a picture. I'm in a bulletproof vest, I have a 20 pound helmet on my head. It's raining. And like it was pathetic, okay. With a pathetic little scene. Just me like on my phone typing away. And me and my sister, we go at it. We finally have that blow up fight that's been simmering. And I over textile blurred it. I was like, I don't even think I'm going to be here next week kind of thing. And my sister is a licensed therapist and she goes, I'm reporting you. And I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I was like, hang on, no, no, I'm in battle rattle right now. I'm in uniform. And I was like, no, no, no, no, no. Like, shit, I messed up. And she was gonna report me. The. The military would have. They don't allow depression, basically. And I'll speak candidly there. Yeah. So I'm thinking, I'm like, they're going to come get me and I'm gonna get kicked out. And I'm like trying to backtrack. And she is, she's like, I'm a mandated reporter, basically. Gonna have to deal with this. Like, I'm reporting you. And I'm sobbing. So I'm like hiding behind a semi truck crying my eyes out. Oh my God. And I was like, I need to get out of my, my sister's house. I need to just figure it out. So I leave work and I'm just a wreck. And I get to my sister's house, I'm like packing a bag. And Finn, he's texting me and he. He didn't know the extent of what was going on, but he's like, hey, like, I have this three bedroom house and Izzy doesn't live here anymore and you need to move out of your sister's house. Like, why don't you move in with me? And I was like, that doesn't sound great, but like, I need somewhere to go.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

And are you still like, did talk telling your sister kind of change how you felt about.

[Talia]

I mean, yes and no.

[Hannah]

I'm so sorry.

[Talia]

I. Thank you. Yes and no. I wanted a. Not wanted. I needed a sister reaction.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Talia]

But she went into therapists and. And I get it because this is her job. It's her first full time job. So I. I still. I was like, plan is still on. It's so hard to explain where I was. It was so complex. So I go to his house that night. So this is all the same day that I had that fight with my sister. And I go to Finn's house and I just break down to him. I break down and I told him everything. I told him the full plan. I told him, like, the date. I told him everything. And he starts bawling like snot everywhere. And I'm crying because I'm like, my sister threatened to report me instead of like, oh, come here, you sweet baby, baby angel, you know? And she told my parents, and my parents, they. They were kind of like, hey, stop that. Like, they didn't really.

[Hannah]

They're like, don't be depressed.

[Talia]

Yeah, like, don't be depressed. Come on. So that was definitely hard. And then finally, I didn't want anyone to cry. I didn't want any of that. But, like, finally someone's having this reaction and I was like, so taken aback by it. And he is bawling his eyes out. He's like, please leave me. I can't do this life without you and all this stuff. And I'm like, okay. Like, okay, I'm. I just need to figure myself out right now. Like, I just need to. I need something. I don't know what I need, but I need something. And mind you, I'm still in school at this point. So I go to his house about a week later, and I was on a study session on Zoom. And it was a live session. And out of the blue, Finn comes in the room. He's all, I need you to tell me your plan. Like, I need you to tell me your plan in detail. And I was like, excuse, hang on. Like, I'm in anatomy right now. Yeah, And I. I was in it and I muted it and I was like, stop. Like, God. And so then I'm like turning the camera off because he had the most intense face I've ever seen in my life. And I was like, whoa, dude. He's like, tell me your plan in detail. And I was like, I already told it to you, like, last week. He's like, no, run it back. I was like, I don't really want to talk about that right now. So I ended up turning the camera off on Zoom, but the. The class is still going. And I, like, I kind of just remember laying on the couch. Like, I was really defeated. Like, I was so tired, and I just kind of robotically told him at this point, like, I was such a robot. And I just was, like, telling him. I was like, this is what I was gonna do. And then. Then this, and then this, and he's like crying, and then he goes, I'm so sorry. And then all of a sudden, his house lights up with floodlights and sirens, and there's ambulances outside, there's fire trucks, there's cops. It was a whole thing. It was a whole thing. And I can't even explain to you what my body did. Like, there's flight, there's fight. And then there was me. I. Whatever. The sat that just. Yeah, I just sat and I just had tunnel vision. So, like, the paramedics came in and I could just see them, and I was, like, violently shaking. And they were like, hey, like, are you okay? Like, being so sweet. And I was like. I kept looking at Finn, and I was first off, my zoom is still going on, and I was like, oh, my God. And all the cops come in, all the paramedics. It was a whole thing. And they're like, don't be mad at him. Don't be mad at him. He. He just wants you around. And they wanted to take me, put me on a 72 hour med hold, but I was like, you can't do that. Like, I'm in the middle. Like, you cannot do that. I will lose my. My life. You know? And so they end up calling the on call therapist guy. And they call him. He comes. He was this amazing person, just like a. Like a grandpa, you know, Just a good grandpa. And he sat down with me and he's like, tell me everything. Tell me how you feel. And I told him. And then he asked me, he's like, why do you want to die? And I broke down and I was like, I'm just so tired. I'm so tired. And he's like, I don't think you want to die. I think you are chronically depressed. I think it's been going on for a while because I told him, like, stories from the past. And he's like, I think you need sleep. And I was like, I do need sleep, you know? And he called off, like, the 72 hour med hold thing. And then I was like, can I call my sister? And they're like, yeah, call your sister. So I call my sister. She comes booking it over in the middle of night, and I'm expecting, like, again, new sweet little baby angel. And she walks in and she's a therapist, and she just starts talking to the other therapist. And they're just two therapists talking. And I just saw, like, a little girl on the couch.

[Hannah]

I'm right here.

[Talia]

Yeah. And Finn's just sitting in the corner, just hiccup, crying, you know. So everyone finally leaves. There's no more every. Everything's gone. And I walk up to Finn and he's looking at me like the saddest face I've ever seen. And I just gave him, like, the biggest hug ever. And I was like, thank you so much for doing that. Like, you saved my life. And he's like, I'm so happy you're here. And I end up falling asleep. I fell asleep till 4 o'clock the next day. And at his. At his place, I just knocked out. I. I think I slept for maybe, I want to say, like, 18 hours. Like, wow. Just. You really were tired. I was tired. Like, I was.

[Hannah]

Nothing was kind of part of why.

[Talia]

Oh, yeah. 100. And, like, looking back, I see that. But at the time, I was like, I just don't sleep anymore. I wonder why, you know?

[Hannah]

Of course not.

[Talia]

So I. And then my sister, she had also called Ed and told him. And I was, like, really pissed about this. And eventually, me and Ed, we break up. I was like, I can't keep doing this to you. Like, you know, let's break up. He didn't want to. He wanted to fight, like, tooth and nail. And I was like, I'm so not okay right now. And so we break up. And so the day I Woke up at 4pm, I went back to my sister's house. She's pissed. She had told my parents. They're pissed. Everyone's looking for me. Everyone's mad at me. They're not even. It didn't even seem like they were worried. It just seemed like my mom, my dad, my sister were mad at me. And I was like, this is not what I need right now. Like, at all. So meanwhile, Finn, he's telling me, like, I'm so happy you're alive. The sun's gonna shine another day. The birds are, you know, like that thing.

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Talia]

So then I go, and I'm starting to look for a house because me and my sister, after this night, we. We do not talk again. And I moved out. I found a little house, and it just happened to be four minutes from Finn's house. This was not planned. This was the cheapest thing I could find that had, like, a little yard for my dog. So I found this house and I just move out. And Finn, he gets me the moving truck and he's like, doing all the heavy lifting and so pack up the moving truck. I remember that night. I felt. Felt so free. And I moved into my house, and I was. It was like my. My first little home. It was. It's so cute. And Finn was so proud of me. He's like, you did it like, you've got your own place. And I'm like, I'm gonna start a new chapter in my life without my mom, without my dad, without my sister. It's just. Just me without Ed. Without. Yeah, without Ed, Really? So that night where he did the whole, like, say it thing, he used that night against me. So I knew that I wanted to break up with Ed eventually. I wanted it to be on my own time. So he took that opportunity away from me, and. And I. I was vocal about that. I told him, like, I wanted. You know, I could have seen us being together for a little bit longer and ending the way that we needed to instead of forced to end. Finn, though, he was like, well, once you guys are broken up, like, we can be together finally, because me and Izzy aren't together, and you and Ed aren't together, and you told me you love me, and I told you I love you. And that's when I was like, pump the brakes. I need time. Like, I just went through this very, very traumatic thing. I'm in the process of working through that and healing. I'm also going through a breakup. And I was like, I need time. That was. That was like, an emotional roller coaster for me. But Finn was kind of like, well, tick tock. Izzy doesn't live with me anymore, and now you're broken up with Finn, and you said you loved me. I was there, you know? So after I move in, I told him. I was like, hey, I need some time with my breakup, and I just need time. Like, that's all I need right now.

[Hannah]

And sleep.

[Talia]

Yeah. So I asked for time after I break up with Ed, and Finn does what Finn does, and he comes over regardless. So he made me turn on my location, and he had a copy of my house key, because he is like, you know, you don't have anyone in your life anymore, basically, and I'm gonna keep an eye on you because you're this, like, suicidal maniac. That's just kind of how he was treating the situation.

[Hannah]

He was like, I'm doing this for your own good.

[Talia]

Yeah. And he was like, because any minute you could. And I was like, at that point, I had told my therapist, too, and I was starting to do a little Better. But yeah, Finn is like, no, no, no. I need your, you know, location key, this and that. So I just gave it to him. I was like, okay, like, you're right. You're probably right. Like, I do need this. Like, you know what's best for me. Clearly, you saved me, you know? So he comes over this one night, even though I kind of asked him not to, and he is not respecting my space at all about, like, needing space. And he's like, asking about Ed and asking about, you know, when I'll have an answer about being with him. And I'm like, I. Like, dude, I don't know. And like, I. I cannot drill in the fact enough that I was such a robot. So he's asking questions. I was like, I. I don't know, like some sometime soon kind of thing. And he's like, I'm sorry I'm overwhelming you. And I was like, yeah, I'm kind of overwhelmed right now. And behind my washer and dryer is this shelf. And I had a toolbox on the shelf because I'm still moving in at this point, you know, and there's a hammer in it. And he goes. I can't remember the exact verbiage, but he goes, I just think about grabbing this hammer and like, hitting you in the head with it. Oh, oh, oh, yeah. And I should have seen, you know, should have thought that was weirder than it was. I didn't think that was weird.

[Hannah]

What did you think?

[Talia]

No, at this point I was nothing. I was thinking, really? I was such a shell. Like, anything could happen. Yeah. Wow. I.

[Hannah]

You're just like, okay.

[Talia]

Yeah. And I just was kind of like, haha, silly. And so then I pretend to grab the hammer. I do not grab the hammer. I pretend to grab it and I go boink, like over his head.

[Hannah]

Just. You're like, flirt.

[Talia]

Like, yeah. Haha.

[Hannah]

Yeah, this is totally fine. I get it. Like, diffusing maybe.

[Talia]

Yeah. It never leaves the shelf. And Finn looks at me and he grabs his head and he, like, backs up and he's looking at me like I just murdered somebody in front of him. And he. What? Yeah, okay. Yeah. And he. I have never seen this face on him before. He's grabbing his head, he's backing away from me, and he's like, whimpering. And then he just starts sobbing.

[Mackenzie]

What?

[Talia]

But it. It was. How do I explain this? I don't know. He turned into a toddler. He started rubbing one eye. His like, toes went together. He starts talking in like, Goo Goo Gaga kind of a Little Goo Goo Gaga. He's like, I'm really scared right now. And I was like, whoa, what the fuck? Good eyes.

[Hannah]

This is so weird.

[Talia]

You guys.

[Hannah]

This is going to get weird. I can feel it in my bones.

[Mackenzie]

We haven't even recorded the second half of the story. We don't even know what happens next.

[Hannah]

So if you have questions, y'all let us know, because we can ask her.

[Mackenzie]

In the next when we record with her again.

[Hannah]

Yeah, so let us know DM us at Dating Detectives Podcast or write us on Patreon, especially if you're listening on Monday, because then, you know, more likely for us to see it and prepare it. So, I mean. Okay. After we did finish talking to her for part one, I had to, like, call my mom and my boyfriend and separately. And I was like, I don't even need to tell you the beginning. I just need to tell you what this boy did at the end where he goes into baby mode, and he's like, I'm willy skilled.

[Mackenzie]

I can't. I cannot.

[Hannah]

I feel like I'm starting to get used to the weirdness. Even though it's bonkers for him to be like, I think I want to hit you in the head with a. With a hammer. Like, that is horrid. But we've seen it before. These guys are nuts. They do stuff like that. The baby talk, that's a new one for me.

[Mackenzie]

What is that? Like, what? The keys. I'm like. I get, like, being playful. Like, I can see that. Like, I do sometimes. My husband.

[Hannah]

Oh, yeah, no, we love a little baby talk.

[Mackenzie]

What are you. And then start crying. For realsies.

[Hannah]

Yeah, he's not being cute. He's, like, genuinely acting fearful. I don't like it the way she described it. She's like, he turned his knees inward. He rubbed one eye like a toddler, and will. He's killed.

[Mackenzie]

I can't.

[Hannah]

I keep thinking about it, Mackenzie.

[Mackenzie]

I cannot. We send us your questions to ask her. Like, what? We're gonna get a slew of questions. Like, the next episode is gonna be us. Answer asking questions.

[Talia]

But I'm.

[Mackenzie]

I'm dying to know what happened. Like, what the crap?

[Hannah]

This Finn guy. I mean, obviously he had some creepy behavior, but they. We're good friends, and he fit those unmet needs, I guess. So we will see if you're a.

[Mackenzie]

Little bit new when we say unmet needs. If you listen to the OnlyFans episode, it had a little bit to do with sex trafficking, and we talked to a sex trafficking expert just to kind of Get a little bit more knowledge and education in that. And the expert was saying that traffickers and just bad people in general. Right?

[Hannah]

Dog fishers across the board.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, across the. Across the board. They manipulate you by preying on your unmet needs. So they find what is triggering for you or something that maybe you didn't get growing up. Like compliments. And then they use compliments to make you feel like, oh, they're complimenting me. No one else has ever. So they prey on those unmet needs. So that's what we mean when we say unmet needs. And so I feel like that's a big thing here.

[Hannah]

Huge. And you just reminded me another thing, because I'm going to post a video on our Instagram that is this answer. When we talked to Dr. Ramany, who's a narcissist kind of expert, the question was asked, why do people get into relationships with multiple abusers? Because a lot of people in this comment, if it's happened to you, are like, okay, I went through one terrible relationship, and then the second one was too, like, what's wrong with me? Like, why do I keep picking these people? And her thought to that was, because there's so many different types of narcissists or so many different types of abusers in general. I think it applies. And she was like. And the unmet needs thing is, like, you come out of one relationship where somebody treated you one way. Now your needs are for the opposite of what that person did. And then so, like, in her case, when she was with somebody that was, like, emotionally stunted in a way, or like, not giving her any emotional, she went. Swung the opposite pendulum to somebody who was maybe too emotionally receptive. And, like, I think that's interesting. And then also the end of that video is Dr. Ramany being like, that is why you have to wait before you get into another relationship, which is so hard. And I haven't done it always. And I know it's easier said than done, but she was very adamant. She's like, that's why I really ask people to take at least a year to themselves after your breakup, because it's just so you have to get to that point where you know what your.

[Mackenzie]

Unmet needs are so that they can't be preyed upon. But one thing also that really struck a chord with me was that familiar chaos. Yes, it's. It's chaos and it's crazy and it's bad. But if it's what you know, it's familiar. And familiar equals comfort, typically. Right? So really interesting. So I'm really, I'm dying to know what happens next. And she's, I love the way she tells her story and I'm excited for. I keep saying excited, not excited like yippee, but like I'm interested, anxious. I'm anxious to know how it all comes full circle. So I'm dying just like you guys and I will.

[Hannah]

Let's shout out to her and her sister, who have been longtime listeners. So thank you guys.

[Mackenzie]

Thank you so much. And you guys, thank you so much for sharing the Dating Detectives podcast on your social media. It really, really helps to grow our show, number one, but also it really helps to build that community. Hannah and I were recording in LA when we signed up with Dear Media and we were talking about what's the number one word that comes to your mind when it comes to the Dating Detectives? And I said community because you guys have created such a community for other women. Like people you don't even know. When you show up and share your story, you're creating a community for other people who are like, I, I felt so alone. So never be afraid to share your story. Email us your your story. You can email us at Investigate The Dating Detectives podcast.com Share your story with us. Sometimes they go to spam, so if you don't get a response, Molly's by herself, by the way. Like we, we are. This is why we what the monetization helps of the Patreon and the ads and everything that helps us to grow the show so eventually we can have more manpower when it comes to editing and we can respond to your emails a little bit more.

[Hannah]

But that's also why you make but put your subject like something descriptive about your story. Like, you know, this one could be like, I don't know what happens in the end, but like long time best friend threatened to hit me in the head with a hammer. Like something like that, you know, like something that's like said that's it. So that we know.

[Mackenzie]

Don't put dogfish in the subject. We know, we know. But anyways, we really appreciate the community you've created and thank you for sharing your story with us and allowing us to be a platform and an ear for you. And thank you for being that for someone else. So anyways, listen, next time, next Monday, we're gonna have the rest of the story.

[Hannah]

Send us your question.

[Mackenzie]

Send us your questions.

[Hannah]

And yes, and as always, trust your stem intuition, please. We got.

[Talia]

Yeah.

[Mackenzie]

Sa.