The Long Game: Part 2

Summary

The Dating Detectives: "The Long Game: Part 2" – Detailed Summary

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Dating Detectives
• Host/Author: Dear Media
• Description: Join professional Private Investigator Mackenzie Fultz and Comedian Hanna Anderson each week as they delve deep into the stories of the liars, cheaters, and con-men who have left a trail of broken hearts and shattered trust in the dating world. We'll uncover the lies, scams, and manipulations of these con artists, shining a light on the red flags to look out for in the wild west of dating apps.
• Episode: The Long Game: Part 2
• Release Date: March 3, 2025

Summary:

Introduction In "The Long Game: Part 2," hosts Mackenzie Fultz and Hanna Anderson continue their deep dive into the harrowing story of Talia, a survivor of a manipulative and abusive relationship. This episode sheds light on the prolonged psychological abuse Talia endured at the hands of Finn, a figure she initially perceived as supportive but who ultimately became her emotional tormentor.

Background and Early Relationship Dynamics Talia recounts her tumultuous past, marked by an upbringing in an abusive household. Her mother’s opioid addiction left her with a "confused relationship with love," often conflating love with abuse. This foundation led to a series of challenging relationships during her high school years and shortly after.

Meeting Finn: From Friend to Abuser Talia introduces Finn, whom she describes as a "stage five clinger." Initially, Finn was a source of unwavering support during her difficult times, including an abusive relationship with her sister and other personal struggles. Talia explains, “Finn learned how to say exactly what I needed to hear” (02:55), highlighting how Finn capitalized on her vulnerability to establish control.

Escalation of Abuse Finn's behavior soon shifted from supportive to manipulative and threatening. He claimed to have a traumatic brain injury (TBI), using it to evoke sympathy and prevent Talia from leaving him. Talia describes an alarming incident where Finn threatened to "hit her in the head with a hammer" (04:05). Although Talia attempted to defuse the situation with humor, Finn responded with emotional pleas that left her feeling trapped and responsible for his well-being.

Psychological Manipulation and Sleep Deprivation Finn employed tactics of psychological abuse, including sleep deprivation, to weaken Talia’s resolve. “Sleep deprivation is a form of abuse, and it's awful” (03:41), Talia emphasizes. Finn’s manipulation extended to exploiting her insecurities, such as her relationship with a friend named Steve, whom Finn disallowed her from interacting with, further isolating her.

Seeking Help and Legal Battles As Finn's abuse intensified, Talia sought help from her therapist and reached out to friends for support. Her journey included attempting to set boundaries, such as trying to block Finn and seeking a temporary protective order (TPO). Talia recounts her painful experience in court, where despite presenting substantial evidence of Finn's abuse, her request for a TPO was denied: “The judge kept telling him to be quiet” (118:35).

Breaking Free and Recovery Determined to escape Finn's grip, Talia made a bold move by booking a flight to Argentina without informing Finn. This act of defiance marked a turning point in her struggle to regain autonomy. With the support of her friend Nick and her family, Talia was able to distance herself from Finn physically and emotionally.

Rebuilding and Moving Forward Post-escape, Talia focused on her healing process through therapy, journaling, meditation, and self-reflection. She emphasizes the importance of self-love and understanding one's worth: “I think everybody needs to take time to get them to know themselves” (132:45). Talia found solace in new relationships grounded in mutual respect and support, contrasting sharply with her past experiences.

Conclusion and Insights The episode concludes with Talia reflecting on her journey from victimhood to empowerment. She underscores the significance of recognizing abusive patterns and seeking help, while also highlighting the challenges victims face in breaking free from long-term abusers. Talia’s story serves as a poignant reminder of the resilience required to overcome manipulation and reclaim one’s life.

Notable Quotes:

• Talia: “Sleep deprivation is a form of abuse, and it's awful” (03:41).
• Talia: “I know I have to start telling more people what's going on” (74:55).
• Talia: “Ever since you were a kid, you would collect the broken people and you would break yourself” (124:18).
• Therapist: “Narcissists are the hardest people to diagnose because they're liars” (122:30).

Key Themes:

• Psychological Abuse: Finn’s use of manipulation, sleep deprivation, and emotional blackmail to control Talia.
• Isolation: Finn’s efforts to isolate Talia from her support system, exacerbating her vulnerability.
• Self-Realization and Empowerment: Talia’s journey towards recognizing the abuse and taking steps to rebuild her life.
• Support Systems: The critical role of friends, therapy, and family in helping victims escape abusive relationships.
• Legal Challenges: The difficulties in obtaining legal protection against abusers and the often disappointing outcomes in court.

Final Thoughts: "The Long Game: Part 2" is a compelling and emotionally charged episode that delves into the complexities of escaping a manipulative and abusive relationship. Talia’s courage in sharing her story provides invaluable insights into the subtle and overt tactics used by abusers, the psychological toll on victims, and the arduous path to recovery. Mackenzie and Hannah effectively highlight the red flags of such relationships, offering listeners both a cautionary tale and a beacon of hope for those seeking to break free from similar situations.

For more insightful stories and to share your own experiences, listeners are encouraged to reach out via email at [e-mail].

Transcript

[Hannah]

The following program contains names, places, and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following program is provided for entertainment purposes only, and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances. If you or a loved one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic violence hotline at 1-800-799-7233 for support. Part two. Let's do this.

[Mackenzie]

Part two. I know you guys kind of. Sometimes people are like, I won't want to watch. I don't want to listen to the episode until both of them are out. But this one's kind of. This one, like, the first.

[Talia]

I hate it when, like, the first.

[Mackenzie]

Half is like, oh, this sounds okay. All right. Like, okay, what's going to happen? Why are they on our podcast?

[Hannah]

Yeah, Some of you were a little like, what's the point of this one? I'm like, okay, hold onto your hats and trust us.

[Talia]

Trust the process.

[Hannah]

Yeah, we're not gonna bring you anything that's not dogfishy, y'all.

[Mackenzie]

But I love some of the comments. Like, people are guessing, like, oh, he's gonna do this. I love when you guys go into, like, your. Your theories. I love it so much.

[Talia]

It's great.

[Hannah]

I'll briefly recap what happened in part one, although strongly encourage you to listen to the whole thing.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

So Talia is our guest. I think she said it so well at the very beginning. She came from a pretty abusive, I think, household. At least there was a lot of. Like, her mom had an opioid addiction. Basically. She described it as, she had a very confused relationship with love, where she often confused love and abuse. So I think a lot of people can relate to that. That led to a series of relationships in high school and a little bit afterwards that were either. Well, one was abusive. Like, she just, like, had a series of relationships that were difficult in different ways all the while. She had this friend named Finn who was stage five clinger. And specifically when they went camping, he invited himself on a camping trip with her friends. He was being super weird to her ex boyfriend who happened to be there, and she straight up told him, bro, this is not cool. Nobody really invited you. You're making me uncomfortable. He proceeded to stay outside the whole night, even though he didn't have a tent. And he didn't leave until the next morning. Super slumber. And like, Talia, Talia. Hey, Talia. Anyway, so that was her intro to Finn. Years go on. Because I also didn't mention her first time. Being friends with Finn was fantastic. Like, instant besties. And that part clouded some of the cringy stuff. Even though it was obvious he maybe had a crush on her or whatnot, as she was going through a difficult relationship with her sister, her family, other relationships. Here was someone that was always very supportive of her. And I think we can all relate to being like, I know that maybe I shouldn't be friendly with this person because they have a crush on me, but I need validation or I desperately need to hear at least what they're telling me. And Finn learned how to say exactly what she needed to say.

[Mackenzie]

Say, Yep, he has unmet needs. Yeah. So much. So we're like. And then when you hear more, you're going to be, oh, my God, no way.

[Hannah]

Where we left off, he. Oh, yeah. He also claims to have had a traumatic brain injury before he met Talia, which makes him dizzy pretty much anytime she wants to leave him or do anything. And then she doesn't leave because she's not an asshole. And he also uses it for sympathy and makes her stay up on the phone on at night and be like, I need your help, or I'm not feeling well. So then she ends up pretty sleep deprived.

[Mackenzie]

Yep.

[Hannah]

And at this.

[Mackenzie]

Sleep deprivation is a form of abuse, and it's awful.

[Hannah]

Yes. Yes. So she's kind of cloudy at this point, kind of all over the place, and he has just ended by threatening to hit her in the head with a hammer. He says, I really want to hit you in the head with that hammer. She doesn't really know how to respond.

[Mackenzie]

To that, so she tries to make light of it.

[Talia]

Right.

[Hannah]

She made a joke and kind of mimed she didn't hold a hammer. She mimed holding a hammer and boinked on his head. She was like, oh, are you boink?

[Mackenzie]

Like, oh.

[Hannah]

And then he turned into a toddler, started sobbing, and said, I'm really scared. Yeah, I'm really scared right now. You're gonna attack me. And we were like, excuse me, Sorry, what?

[Mackenzie]

I'm sorry, what did you just say, fella?

[Hannah]

So that's the recap.

[Mackenzie]

Wild freaking crazy.

[Hannah]

And that's not even the half of it. So I don't know. I mean.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, wait until you see how this one unfolds. So just let's. Let's put her back on the horn. What do you say?

[Hannah]

Talia, help. We need to know. Let's go.

[Talia]

Okay. Are you guys Ready? Okay.

[Mackenzie]

Yes, please.

[Talia]

So we stopped. We stopped at the toddler cry.

[Mackenzie]

Yes.

[Talia]

Yeah. So the toddler cry. He was like, full blown rubbing his eye, like, toes pointed in. And he's stumbling backwards, like he's trying to get out of my house, but I'm not even pursuing him at all. He's trying to reach for the door handle, but he's rubbing his eye at the same time so he couldn't get out. And then he's like, I need to go home. I need to go home. And I was like, you're in no state to drive. So I'm walking up to him, like, with my hands up, like, hey, buddy. Like, hey. Yeah. Soothing tones as much as I can. And he runs out of my house, runs across the street, gets in his car, and I'm like, looking through the window, and I'm like, he's not driving away, but I can see him crying.

[Mackenzie]

No.

[Talia]

I go out to his car, climb in the front seat, and he's backing away from me. And I'm like, both hands up, like, hey.

[Mackenzie]

Like, he's scared of you.

[Talia]

Yeah. And I was like, are you good? Like, what's going on? And he's. Erratic is the only word I can think of. And he's bawling his eyes out. He's screaming at the top of his lungs. At one point, he starts screaming. He's like, I want Izzy.

[Hannah]

I want her.

[Talia]

Can you call her? And I was like, what? And I was like, okay, call her. Do you need me to grab your phone for, like, I don't know what. Call her if you need to. That's fine. And he's like, he wants to go home. And so I offer to drive him home. And he's immobile. He won't stay, he won't go, he won't do anything. And he's calling out Izzy's name. And at one point, I do remember him looking over at me, and he shifted his emotions, and he's like, you look so scared right now. And I was like, what? Yeah, I am.

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Talia]

And mind you, when I dated Peter, that was a physically abusive relationship. And so I was like, just kind of prepping, I guess, like, body wise. But at the same time, I was like, if I get out of his car and he drives and he like, crashes or something.

[Mackenzie]

Could you imagine?

[Hannah]

I just want to interrupt you to remind the listeners from last week how sleep deprived you are at this moment. Because that's something that in the past week, people have said they really related to a lot. I want you to know whether it's from an abusive relationship or even somebody talked about, like, postpartum sleep deprivation. People heard your story so far and are like, I understand why her mind didn't feel the way it feels now. It changes your brain so much. And I think it's easy to forget that hearing this story, people are really good at saying, like, well, why didn't you do this? Or, why didn't you do that? And obviously, that's not the question to ask. But also back to you being, like, not sure what to do. Add to it your level of fogginess, for sure.

[Talia]

Yeah. Sleep deprivation was since February, and we're in May now. And I'm also re figuring out my life at this point because I, like, I remember looking at him, and I'm in this ball, and all I was thinking was, like, oh, fuck. I have no sister. I have no mom and dad. I live alone. I was so isolated. Isolated. And I was also so out of it. It was an insane feeling, for sure. So he's, like, screaming her name. And then he looks at me and says, I look scared. And I'm just like, do I might drive you home. And the next day, he comes over. He's like, oh, sorry about wanting Izzy. Like, I meant to say my mom. Ha ha.

[Hannah]

Yeah. He was right on.

[Talia]

He was like. I just felt like if I said I wanted my mom, it sounded weak. Like, I want my mommy. And I told him I was like, that would have sounded like, a whole lot better. Yeah, whole lot better.

[Hannah]

And he's single? Not with Izzy, No.

[Talia]

Yeah, she moved out. So to my knowledge, single too.

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Talia]

Yeah. So to my knowledge, she's, like, out. And I have been to his house at this point, and so I know she's not living there. So then he's blaming his brain injury. And so we were texting the next day, and I told him, like, you scared me. And, you know, I was very uncomfortable in that situation. I'm gonna read a text that he sent me. He text me, and he said, I didn't realize that was so scary for you. That was very brave of you to have gotten in the car with me after all the experiences you've had. I can say I know that you were safe the whole time, but I know that doesn't mean anything. You put your concern or fear aside to be there for me in that moment, Even if I didn't necessarily deserve it, in that moment, you still showed up for me. Thank you for doing that. And I'm not even kidding, you guys about 10 minutes later, he's mocking me.

[Mackenzie]

Wait, for what?

[Talia]

Because he's like, oh, you think I'm scary? Like, And I was like, he's saying that this is text at this point. And I was like, no, I didn't say, you are scary. And I put in, like, caps. I said, you in caps were being scary. Like, I was scared. And then he texts, I'm gonna put it like this. I'm not gonna stand up for myself against someone who knows me as well as you do and throws around things like, you scare me. That is charged and obviously causes me harm. I'm not okay with being spoken to like that. And this personality switch 10 minutes apart.

[Hannah]

Yeah. How did you feel seeing those texts? Like, running through that conversation?

[Talia]

That's when I realized I actually don't know who this person is when he's angry. And I kept having those, like, oh, shit, oh, shit, oh, shit. What did I do? What did I do? Like, I should be living with my sister right now kind of thing. I was torn in every single direction because it's like, okay, I'm financially stable to live on my own, so I want to get this second shot at life. Like, that's how I viewed it. I'm getting the second shot at life, and I still have a job and I'm still in school. And then there's him, Finn, who, like, quote, unquote, saved my life. And now he's screaming at me. I was like, what am. What's going on? Like, I. I had no idea what was going on. And he made me feel so bad for telling him that he scared me that I kept having to explain. I was like, no, this is what I mean by that. And then he was getting more and more pissed, like, well, I'm not a scary person, and you know me. Like, why would you even say that? Like, those words are damaging. Like, that text, he's like, it's charged.

[Hannah]

He's making you the aggressor.

[Talia]

He sure is.

[Mackenzie]

That is Darvo.

[Hannah]

When I'm not listening to dogfish stories or true crime stories, I'm listening to spicy, spicy stuff, okay? Usually spicy audiobooks from Dipsea. So listen to this really quick. This is a teaser.

[Talia]

I just needed a pen. Sir, behavior like that is a punishable offense.

[Hannah]

But I was just sitting quietly in class. I didn't do any.

[Talia]

I've been lenient with you before, but.

[Hannah]

I am afraid that there will be consequences. What sort of consequences? You know that my colleagues, my students.

[Talia]

My boss are all in this building. I didn't mean to upset you. It's too late now. You have to be punished.

[Hannah]

That was a teaser from Lecture Me. It's a spicy audiobook exclusively on Dipsea. And I've listened to the whole thing. I'm not even kidding. So this is about, you know, Things heat up between Professor James and his former grad student. Will they be able to keep their relationship a secret on campus? Download the Dipsea app to find out. Now it's consensual, it's hot, it's two adults and, and I kind of like that. Like this is a female founded app for spicy audiobooks and more. And they really bake into the spiciness, like hot consent and stuff like that. Like they do a good job of making responsible sports spice. And that's important. It's created by women and for the female gaze, it's really for anybody. And anything you're into, you're going to find. They've got Sapphic stuff, they've got the gay stuff, they've got all the genres. Contemporary, historical, dark sports, western, romantasy, Sapphic, more. You want a threesome, you got a threesome. You want Pride and Prejudice, you want a Scottish sailor, you want a God of the underworld? Say no more. Dipsy's got you covered. Their app has over a thousand spicy audiobooks, all crafted by a team of professional writers and top tier narrators. And they release new chapters every week. So you'll always find something new. You'll never get bored. And I just think it's a great place to not only, you know, spice things up, but to explore your desires. You should focus on your sexual wellness and your personal wellness. It's all tied together. They have things on the app that you can listen to with a partner. They have wellness sessions, breath work, questions to ask with your partner about intimacy. It's a really great, great app that I've loved long before we got to work with them. So right now, listeners of this show can get an extended 30 day free trial. Just go to dipsystories.com TDD to start your free trial. That's D I P S A stories.com TDD for 30 days of full access. For free visit dipsystories.com TDD and you.

[Talia]

So we are in June now and at this point, me and my sister, we have each other blocked on everything. My parents are trying to reach out to me and I'm not talking to them. Like when I say I was alone, I was absolutely alone. I wasn't asking people to hang out because my friends like, my close friends didn't know what was going on, so.

[Hannah]

And you didn't want to tell them?

[Talia]

Yeah, I didn't want to tell them anything. So it's wake up at 4:30, work from home at 5, get off gym, school, rinse, repeat every single day. Like, I was just a robot. And at the same time, Finn is trying to be with me. Like, he's doing this thing where he's. When I said about the religious stuff earlier, where he was super interested in my spirituality, he's telling me, the universe put me in your life so that I could make that phone call. And he's like, that's what you believe in, right? The universe puts people in your life. And I'm super into, like, past lives and stuff. And he's like, I think we are in a past life together and all this stuff. So he's, like, really filling my head with, I had to be here and I had to do that, and I saved you.

[Hannah]

And so you're stuck and using your language too.

[Talia]

He's using the things.

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Mackenzie]

He's relating to you. He's making it so that you relate to him. Yeah.

[Talia]

I feel like if I was a Christian, he'd be like, you prayed for this. You know what I mean? So whatever. So he was really good at the manipulation. At that point, I 100% felt like I owed him because he would throw in my face, I made that phone call. Your family didn't. I did. I'm the one here for you. I helped you move. I got the moving truck. So he made me feel kind of like I had this debt to him. So I felt like I just owed him everything that I had because he made me feel like he was the only person in the world that cared enough about me. After I broke up with Ed, it was right away, he's like, okay, when are we gonna be together? When are we gonna be together? And I was just like, one thing at a time, please. Like, one thing at a time. And he was not taking no for an answer. So that night, he came over in the whole hammer debacle earlier that day, I had told him, I need space. And then he was like, well, no, because you guys are broke it up now, so we should be together because you told me you love me. And I. I vividly remember telling him, like, I'm so confused and stressed right now. And he was like, no, you're not. You told me you love me. And when I was like, I don't know anything about how I feel right now, he's like, nope, you. You said it. So that's what it is. And so really after that night with the Hammer, I just felt like right after that, we were in this relationship, and I would try to pull away. And that's when he really, really started hating Ed, like, so much, because I was like, hey, things are moving too fast. I don't even know if I want to be in a relationship. I just got out of one, like, five minutes ago, and it was like, I would try to pull away, then he'd get pissed. And at the same time, being like, I saved your life and the universe put me here and blah, blah, blah. So I didn't get a say, really. When it started, it just. It was a night and day thing. It was just completely. One minute he was just talking about it, and the next minute he's calling me his girlfriend. So we're in this limbo of a relationship kind of thing. It's kind of like I'm his girlfriend, but he's not my boyfriend, so I'm not allowed to do a lot of things, but he's allowed to do whatever the fuck he wants.

[Mackenzie]

Well, that tracks, considering how he likes open relationships. Only on one side.

[Hannah]

And did that happen through a conversation where you guys agreed to be in a relationship or you just kind of were playing those roles?

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, it.

[Talia]

There was no conversation. It just kind of happened. And being where I was, mentally, I was like, okay, like, yeah, like, he's right. He loves me. Yeah. And he's telling me that he's in love with me and all sorts of things. And he's like, and you love me, too. Remember? Like, you told me? And so I started getting really confused. I was like, maybe I do love him. And I remember telling my therapist, and she didn't know about the freakouts that he was having. So she's hearing, your longtime good friend calls the cops, and now he's there for you, and he helped you move out. And she was like, I think you love him by the way you talk. You're talking about him. But I wasn't being honest with my therapist either.

[Hannah]

So that feels really tricky. I don't, like, kind of dangerous.

[Talia]

Yeah. And that's not. And this is just. Be honest with your therapist, guys. If you actually want help, be honest with your therapist.

[Hannah]

So in your mind at that moment, you were like, maybe I do want to be with him.

[Talia]

Yeah. It was. I want to say, almost like Stockholm syndrome.

[Mackenzie]

Okay, that tracks.

[Talia]

I get that. Yeah, sure. I want. That's kind of feels like a Strong word this early on.

[Mackenzie]

No, but it's. But it's kind of like, mentally, this is Stockholm. Yeah, I could see that.

[Talia]

Yeah. Because he would come over to my house and give me all this affection and then get mad at me right before he left. Go home. And then I'm sitting at home alone, like, wait, no, I have to fix this now. This is my. My person. Air quotes there. Because he told me he's my person. He's using words like, our souls were split from the same star. And he's telling me, once I'm healed that me and him can have this perfect relationship and that I can move in with him and we can have this perfect life and.

[Hannah]

But it's your fault that it's not ready yet. Is that. Is that what I'm hearing?

[Talia]

It's my fault? Yeah, of course it's 100% my fault. And in this time, he's pissed when I can't even, like, emphasize enough that I'm still friends with Steve. Me and Steve, we used to work out together at a different gym. And Finn was like, you're not allowed to go to the gym with him anymore. That's too sexual. And I'm like, you're a personal trainer. And then at the same time, I'm trying to pull myself out of the mud, but he's just kicking me down all the time. And also at this point, him and my cousin Dylan. Dylan is no longer friends with him. I don't know when that happened, but Finn's blaming me for that too. And when we fight, he would be like, you're gonna abandon me just like your cousin did, and blah, blah, you guys are such family. And I was like, what the heck? And then there was this one time in June, he was getting a tattoo, and he invited me to go hang out at the tattoo shop. And so, like, the good little girlfriend I was, I did. And I sat with him. He's getting this, like, huge piece. So I'm there for hours, and me and the tattoo artist, we start chatting a lot because apparently me and his wife used to work together and blah, blah, blah. So we're talking a lot, and at the end of the session, we're walking down the street, and we're gonna go get food, and Finn's like, you talk way too much in there. I could tell he was getting annoyed by you. Oh.

[Hannah]

Cause you were talking to another man.

[Talia]

Yeah. And that for me. So I. I know I talk a lot. At the time, I had not been diagnosed with ADHD yet. And so I had this huge insecurity, and he knew that. He knew that was a huge insecurity of mine. So he said. He's like, yeah, you talk too much. And I could tell he wanted you to stop talking. And I was like, oh, man, I'm sorry. Like, my bad.

[Hannah]

Oh, that breaks my.

[Mackenzie]

What a jerk.

[Talia]

So he said that to me, and I was like, okay, I just kind of want to go home now. Like, I'll just cook at home. Yeah. And we're walking down the streets, we're in public, and he starts fighting with me. And then he makes a comment about Steve, something like, oh, you're just gonna go hang out with him or something. And then he calls me a. And I just spun on my heels and I walked to my car, and I got in and I turned. Cause he had my location on. So I turned my location off because I was like, I just want to go home. And I know he's going to follow me, so I might drive around for a little bit.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Talia]

And he flips a lid when he sees I turn my location off. He's like, you're just using your suicide against me. And now you're turning your location off and you want to torture me, and I'm the one person that cares about you. And I was like, man, I just. Like, my location on my phone is the last thing I have. Can I just turn it off for a little bit? And then I told him I was like, I'm going home. And I ended up turning it back on. And he's like, no, not good enough. And so those are the kind of fights we're having. Everything is my fault, and I'm trying to fix it. And he's giving, affection, taking, giving and taking. He made me feel like I was the worst person on earth. Even in therapy, I was asking my therapist, like, am I a bad person? And she was like, you're literally human. You're not going to be perfect all the time. And, like, people hurt people sometimes. But she's like, you're not doing it maliciously. You're not going out of your way to attack people. And she was very much trying to drive in the fact that even though I had done maybe not so nice things to people, which I know that I was always trying to redeem myself, and I was trying to come back and be better. And after the whole police call thing, I took that as a second chance to, you know, these are the things I don't like about myself, and I'm going to kind of start over and he wouldn't let me at all. So that's when I really thought, like, wow, like, maybe I really can't redeem myself because the one person that's there for me, my savior, is telling me I'm this awful human being every single day, multiple times a day. So that. That really made me think that I was just scum of the earth, like, horrible person. And so at this point, like, even early on in June, anything he asked me to do, I was doing, like, washing his hair. I would get in the shower and, like, wash his hair for him, whatever he wanted.

[Hannah]

I feel like he's just tearing you down, like, little by little, where. Yeah, you're not yourself at all.

[Talia]

Yeah, I was nothing to him. And he also. He wants me to brutally cut off Ed. So me and Ed, we still follow each other on Instagram, and we're still very recent, like, post breakup. So he's texting me every now and then. And he also, at this point, knows about the suicide, and he's checking on me. And Finn is like, you need to tell him everything that you've ever told me about him. Like, me saying that I didn't think he had enough drive and stuff like that. And he's like, you need to make him hate you. And I was like, no, what's the point of him hating me? And, yeah, Finn was like, in order for you to heal and move on and be this better person that you want to be, like, you need to start coming clean to people. And I was like, I don't see a point in hurting somebody for no reason, for no reason, for no reason at all. So that was another huge fight of ours. Always.

[Hannah]

Also using that, like, if you're going to be a better person, you have to come clean is kind of culty. It's like how people get people into cults where they're, like, making you better. This is for your good.

[Talia]

In the cult, they fin at this point, cult Defin, that was the only member. Like, that's crazy. He wants everyone to feel pain. Everyone in my life. He wants them to hurt for some reason. And he's telling me that this is the only way I can prove that I'm a better person is if I hurt people.

[Mackenzie]

What?

[Talia]

That's twisted the cult defense. So, yeah, I'm telling him I want a clean slate. And he's telling me, people like you don't just change. And this is when he starts making me apologize for everything. And I can't say, I'm sorry, Finn, that I said such and such. And it made you feel this way. If I said that, he'd be like, no, say it again. And then I have to be like, I'm sorry I said this and it caused pain. And then he'd be like, no, no, no. Like, he would write me how to apologize so that I was taking full blame, and I would have to sit there until I got it. Air quotes right. This is psychological abuse. Yeah. It was insanity. And if my apology wasn't good enough, I had to do it again and again and again until when I finally got it right, then he'd be like, well, it doesn't matter now because we've been at this for, you know, X amount of time. And there were things that, like, for example, if I went to the gym with Steve, and then I told Finn I would spend the next two to three days apologizing until I got the verbiage correct. And I'm just so tired. But he's making me feel like I was so responsible for his emotions. I had. I had to apologize. It was my fault. Everything was my fault, you know? And so he. Again, I'm sleeping. I'm not kidding you. I started tracking my sleep at one point. It was 45 minutes a night. I was sleeping.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, it was. My God.

[Talia]

Yeah. And I start going downhill at work a little bit because I'm working from home. I would fall asleep. Like, I'd sit on my couch, and the next thing I know, I have a couple messages from my boss, like, where are you? And then I'm like, oh, my Internet went out. Oops, my bad.

[Mackenzie]

And he's getting as little sleep as you are, right?

[Talia]

Oh, no, he's getting nine hours.

[Mackenzie]

How is he? Why don't you sleep during that time?

[Talia]

Because if he went to bed at, like, 4:00am he would sleep nine hours.

[Hannah]

Oh. Because he makes his own schedule going to the gym. But he would keep you up all night on the phone.

[Talia]

On the phone. We were staying with each other a lot. Well, yeah, I was staying with him a lot because, like, I said, he'd come to my house, love me, fight with me right before he left. And then it's leaving me panicked because he's like, this is the last time I'm doing this and all this. So then I'm up all night trying to apologize and fix it. And then he would do things like, you can come over in person and apologize. So then I'm, like, hopping in my car and.

[Mackenzie]

Of course.

[Talia]

Yeah. Because I. It was like, we would be texting, and I'd be borderline, like, hyperventilating. Cause I was like, I don't know what I did wrong. Like I'm being accused of something that I like. I have no idea what's going on. So I'm staying there a lot, barely sleeping, waking up at 4:30, getting in my car, coming back home. So that's how I'm starting my day every day. And he's also, during this time, he's talking about, he never believed in monogamy, but now he wants to marry me. And he is building this white picket fence life that I've told him I wanted. And he's telling me, you know, I know your fears that you won't be loved, your spouse won't love you forever, but I will. I've loved you forever. I've already loved you.

[Mackenzie]

For nobody else loves you, but I do.

[Talia]

Yeah. Yeah. And I'm like, you know, my family wouldn't even come to this wedding. And he's like, I'm your family. It's you and me and blah, blah, blah. And he's like, within the next world.

[Mackenzie]

Best against the world. Yep.

[Talia]

And he's like, in the next year, basically, if you can get your shit together, I'll ask you to marry me.

[Hannah]

He's just dangling this carrot. He wants you to keep chasing him.

[Mackenzie]

Yep.

[Talia]

And. And working.

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Talia]

If I tried to leave him, if I was like, I can't do this, it's too much. He would promise me the white picket fence life and. But, you know, I want to marry you and I can get you away from your family. And he would tell me everything, everything that I told him I wanted in life, he would promise me. So then I would let him come over and then we could talk. And then, you know, he's crying. And then the minute that I was like, okay, we're good. This would be like every two days it felt like then he's mad at me and then he's pulling away, and then he's saying the most awful things ever. And I was like, wait, no, no, because two days ago you promised me this beautiful life together. But then he's saying like, well, we can't have it because you don't deserve it yet. And so I was just constantly trying to prove myself, like, yeah, I do deserve it. I do want this. And he was like, well, clearly you don't want it enough because you're still you, essentially. And so then I would try to change everything about me to be so perfect for him. You know, he was into fitness. So I started Going to the gym a lot more. He didn't want to eat out ever. So I was meal prepping and it was almost like, good job. I can be nice to you today. You're doing all these good things. And then one day I'm, you know, on my phone for too long and then it's blow up again. But if he blew up and then I was like, okay, I'm done, then the blow up would turn into tears and the toddler cry and I'm dizzy. So then I just constantly felt like even if I push him away, he's going to pass out and hit his head. And then it's my fault. So no matter what I did, it just came to the point where I just. I almost, like, let him win. Like, he would be so mad and hurling all these insults at me and I would just kind of have to start. That's when, like, the apologies and all that great stuff was happening. So I would just apologize. Apologize just to keep peace. Like, three days was a record. I just need it to be good for a couple hours at least. Another thing I wanted to mention, and it makes me feel so icky saying it. So we're obviously having sex at this time. And we would have sex and he would look at me like I was a gazelle and he was a lion. It just felt weird, you know, like dark romance novels. That's how I felt. And I didn't like it, but he was like, oh, no, this is I love you. This is love. We're in love. Yeah. And I'm this dark romance alpha thing. And I felt so vulnerable. I had had sex with him before, but I just. I would always feel really, like, vulnerable. And I was always so insecure. I don't know if that's like tmi, but I was always so insecure while we were having sex. It was like because of the way that he was looking at me. And I'm doing everything in my power. Like I said, anything he says I'm doing. But I felt icky inside. So I. I was so unwell. And you know when your body, like, rejects people? My body was fully rejecting him. I wasn't getting periods anymore. So at one point I went to Target and I took a pregnancy test at Target because I was like, I'm not getting a period. I'm so brain foggy. I just was unwell. I was getting sick when I ate. I'm emotional all the time. And so I take a pregnancy test and there's like a little faint positive on it. And I Lose my shit. And I'm bawling my eyes out, and I call him and I blurt out. I was like, I just took this pregnancy test. There's a faint line on it. And he's like, okay, come over. Take another one. So I go buy another one, and I take it, and that one's broken. There's no result on it. And so we're sitting there talking, and he's like, you know, maybe I want to be a dad. And I've never thought of it before, but, you know, starts the whole I want to have kids with you thing. Like, he's doing all this. I was not pregnant. Thank God. Thank God. So, yeah, so I took a third test, and I was so grateful and thankful and everything.

[Hannah]

And now it's like in his head.

[Talia]

That he's like, now he wants kids. Now he wants kids with me. And he'll. He'll make me a mom if I X, Y, Z. But I remember that day, he was being super loving and, you know, like, holding my head, petting my hair back. And you get those moments of like, oh, wow, this is what it could be like. You have a whole day of this is nice. Yeah. And five minutes of you're being nice. So maybe you are this person. So we continue fighting. We're constantly fighting. So July rolls around. I'm more sleep deprived than ever, if that's possible. I'm still pretty depressed. I'm trying to pull myself out of it. And I was 100% reliant on Finn, emotionally. That was just my life at that point. And my family, they all went to Argentina. My mom is from Argentina, and I grew up going to Argentina a lot. So we used to go together as a family all the time. But I was like, I can't go. My sister's going. But I was so homesick when they left for Argentina. I was devastated. I felt this, like, hole in my stomach, my heart, my soul, everything. And I wanted to be there so bad. And so Finn sees this, and he goes, I'll go to Argentina with you in December. And I'm like, over the moon. But there's a catch, of course, because it's Finn. He had a powerlifting meet in Virginia in December. So he was like, you come to my powerlifting meet with me, and then we'll go to Argentina. I was elated. I was like, yes, that's totally fine. I'll go to your powerlifting meet with you. I'll support you. We can, like, make a little vacation out of it, whatever. And then we'll go to Argentina. So I'm super looking forward to this. But he's like, we're going. Yes, we're like, no, we're not. Yes, we are. No, we're not. So I have to be good. I have to be a good little noodle in order for us to go to Argentina. So then the 4th of July rolls around, and Finn's parents got us baseball tickets to a baseball game. And that game, it ended up being so much fun. I think also his parents were there.

[Hannah]

So he's on his best behavior.

[Talia]

Yeah. And so we watched the game. And I remember during the fireworks, all these oldies were playing, and me and him were singing the songs together. And we took a picture. We took, like, a family photo, and then me and him took a selfie. So he's like, are you gonna post the picture? And I was like, I mean, I could post it on my story, but, like, are we dating? Like, what are we doing? And he's like, oh, so you won't post it? And I was like, no, I'm not. I'm not saying I won't, but people are obviously gonna be asking me what we are.

[Mackenzie]

And how do I explain this?

[Talia]

Yeah, he ends up posting the picture. So he posted first, And I remember I was, like, shocked by it. So then I went. And then I posted it, and I story and feed.

[Hannah]

Or it's just feed.

[Talia]

Just story.

[Hannah]

Just story. Okay.

[Talia]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

So just a bit of a soft launch.

[Talia]

Yeah. So I remember waking up and seeing he had posted it, and I was giddy. I was like, oh, yay. You know, like, he posted me. Maybe he'll like me today or something. So I post it, and then he gets mad at me for something five minutes later, and he takes it down. So I take mine down, and then he gets mad at me for taking mine down. So then he puts his back up. So I put mine back up, and then he got mad at me 10 minutes later, took it down. I kept mine up. So, yeah, that picture. Keep that. I'm like, keep everything if you can. And so July, we're fighting a lot. And this is when the suicide comes back up a lot. He is using it against me. So anytime I don't answer a phone call, I turn my location off. I.

[Mackenzie]

He threatens.

[Talia]

Yeah. He's either telling me that I make him want to kill himself or that I faked it for attention. And then I'm defending myself. And he's constantly making me relive this trauma that I went through that I'm trying to Grow from. So that was what was going on there with a lot of our fights. And we're fighting, fighting, fighting. And I go to the living room and I start to call an Uber. And he sees me and he's pointing at me like I'm a dog. And he's all, sit down. Like, through his teeth, like, sit down. Be quiet. And so I sit down and I'm quiet and I'm holding myself, like, rocking back and forth. And he's like, oh, Finn is so scary, huh? Finn's a big scary guy. And so when I air quotes calm down enough for him, he allows me to come sleep in his bed. And I'm like, I have to go home. Like, my dog is there, you know? And I've been at his house for a couple hours at this point. And he's like, you have to come to the lake with me tomorrow. You owe it to me. And that's the last time I'm ever going to see you. But I deserve this. Like, you are coming to the lake with me because I deserve it. And I crawled in bed and I just flattened myself against the wall because I was like, I don't even want to touch his pillows because he's going to get mad at me. And the next day we wake up and he's like, we're going to the lake with my dog. So we go to lake, and I'm talking to him the whole time, and I am promising him that I'm gonna do better. I'll be better. I'll. I'll do this, I'll do that, I'll do that. Looking back, it gives me the ick of like, how much I was like, I'll do everything for you. And then I remember I went on this rant for so long, and he doesn't say anything. And then finally I was like, you say anything? And he goes, oh, sorry, I wasn't listening to you. And so then I'm like to want me to repeat it? He's like, no, it's fine. Like, we're not gonna work out. So we hike back up to the car and then he's all, we should take a picture. And sets up self timer. And we're like taking pictures. And like in those pictures, my poor little face was like swollen, but I was just like, oh, he's taking a picture of me.

[Mackenzie]

Yay.

[Hannah]

You know, maybe this means he's not gonna.

[Mackenzie]

Who cares? Yeah.

[Talia]

Yeah, there's that crumb of love. And so we don't break up. And this is a common thing he would break up with me, but it wasn't real, if that makes sense. I don't know. I think he would break up with me, but I was still his property, and I didn't have a say in it. So then a little bit later, he starts saying he's not going to Argentina with me because he can't take his steroids on the plane. And he has all his. He's going to have all his powerlifting equipment and, like, blah, blah, blah, and, like, all this stuff. So he's dangling it over my head. And I am so homesick. I was so homesick. I can't even put into words how badly I wanted to be there. And I was talking to my grandma, who lives there almost daily at this point. She's begging me to go. And I'm like, I don't know, Grandma. Like, I'm gonna try. I'm try, you know? And we even. The first time I met his parents was to go get his passport from their house. So he really made me think, like, we're doing this. Like, he got his passport from his mom. He told his mom, we're going to Argentina. And then, you know, I slip up on something, and then we're not going anymore. And so at this time, I told him, I'm still gonna go to Virginia with you. And I asked him, can we split that trip 60? 40? Like, you do 60, I do 40. Right? He's pissed. He's like, you're a gold digger. That's all you want me for. And he's like, we need to go to counseling. We need to go to therapy. And I was like, okay, you're right. So I call my therapist, and my therapist was like, yeah, I'll see you guys.

[Hannah]

Because she's the one that also saw him. Right. Is this still that therapist?

[Talia]

No, no, no. This is a different one. So I make the appointment with my therapist, and the whole time he has tears in his eyes, and he's telling my therapist that I don't know how to apologize. And he's in tears and he's shaking, and I kept trying to touch his knee. And I'm like, hey, hey, calm down. Doing that whole diffuse thing. And. And so my therapist is. She's trying to give us advice and stuff. And we end that session, and the whole way home, he fights with me. He breaks up with me in the car. He goes, I want to let you know your therapist fucking hates you. Did you not see the way she looked at you? And I'm thinking, now does my therapist Hate me. And I was like, you're right. I was talking too much. And this and this and this. So he dumps me, and I text my therapist, and I am like, can we have an emergency session tomorrow? And I start telling her the truth. I told my therapist more and more and more of what was going on, and I started telling her about his freakouts and whatnot.

[Hannah]

And was she saying anything?

[Talia]

She didn't want to see us again. She was like, I don't want to see you two as a couple again, but I'll do it for you, like, if you ask. But she was like, you two either need to be together or be done. And I was. I'm like, I'm right there with you, sister. Like, yeah, when I want to be done, that's when he comes crawling back, and he's promising everything.

[Hannah]

And I also have nothing else. Like, you're like, what? Who else do I have?

[Talia]

Yeah. So we air quotes, work on things, and then a little bit later in the month, he tells me, just out of the blue, he goes, so my friend Olivia, who I had set him up with, and he became her trainer. So my friend Olivia, just out of the blue, Finn goes, she texted me today and said she can't train with me. And I'm like, why? Because she had a sex dream about me, and so she can't train with me today. And I was like, the. Okay, yeah. And I was like, wait, what? And I was like, should I say something to her? And he's like, no, do not. She's my client. Do not get involved with that. And I'm like, yeah, but she's my friend. Yeah, but he's like, do not talk to her. Do not text her. She's my client. So I leave it, and we're fighting worse than ever. This is like, there's not a single day of my life where I'm not crying my eyes out.

[Mackenzie]

And that's terrible.

[Talia]

It was. It was exhausting. Like, it was exhausting.

[Mackenzie]

This episode is sponsored by Better Help Hannah. Who is your support system, and how have they changed your life?

[Hannah]

I'm glad you asked. I want to give a shout out to my therapist. In fact, I probably shouldn't say her name, but I was about to. But my therapist is great, and I see her every week, and I wouldn't be who I am without her, and I really love her. And she has great lashes.

[Mackenzie]

I. First of all, I love that so much that she has her.

[Hannah]

It helps. When I saw her lashes, I was like, I trust you.

[Mackenzie]

I I'm telling you, that's the kind of people that I really trust. I'm asking because I ask for support, like from my friends or from someone close to me. But sometimes it's really nice to have someone that is unbiased, that I can talk to about whatever's going on in my life, whatever's happening. And I like to talk to somebody that I can trust that has a little bit of training that I can count on to support me. And that means using better help and the therapist that they have there. So I've used Better help for a while because sometimes I just get really overwhelmed with a lot that's going my life. And my friends, they want to be on my side and be like, oh, we support you, we love you. My family, they want to, they want to support me. But I like Better help because they give you the tools and resources to manage the feelings that you have and the thoughts that are rushing through your head that you don't know how to manage the best. And that's what I struggle with the most, is the. The thoughts that never end. And sometimes I just, it's just a, a flood of all of these different things that I don't know what to do with. And so the therapist at Better Help really help, they help me to, to manage those. And so I feel like learning positive coping skills and setting boundaries empowers you to be the best version of yourself. And it's not just for those who've experienced major trauma or anything like that. Sometimes you just need to get it out, like get it out of you so that it doesn't live inside of you anymore. BetterHelp is fully online, so it makes therapy affordable, convenient. And they serve over 5 million people worldwide. You to over 30,000 credentialed therapists with a wide range of specialties. And it's easy to switch your therapist if you ever want to. If you're just not connecting with your therapist, they make that stuff really, really easy. I recommend you build your support system with better help. Even though we love our friends, try BetterHelp too. Visit betterhelp.com TDD today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp. H E L p.com TDD.

[Talia]

And leading up to this, all these fights, I had this feeling in my soul to text Liam's sister. So my ex boyfriend Liam, who had a nice family. Yeah. So his sister, she had gotten married. The guy moved her away from her family and beat the shit out of her. And I, yeah, so I remember Liam called me, and we were broken up at the time, but he was like, we don't know how to deal with this. He's like, you have been through domestic violence. And so I called her, and I was super there for her through a lot of the process. And I hadn't talked to her months, maybe a year at that point, maybe, I don't know, but I hadn't talked to her at all. But I kept having this feeling, feeling like. Like that femtuition that was like, text Liam's sister. So this one night, after a really, really, really bad fight, I. I ended up texting her. And I'll never forget, she called me immediately. I texted her something like, hey, I'm so sorry if this is triggering, but I'm in an abusive relationship. I don't know what to do. And she called me. It, like, makes me emotional because I will never forget her voice. She was so quiet and her voice was shaking. And she was like, are you okay? They tell me you're okay, and I'm bawling. And I was like, I'm not okay, and stuff. And she's asking me like, does he hate you? And I'm like, no. And then she sends me this questionnaire that the police had given her of, are you in an abusive relationship? And I'm checking every single box of them except for the physical abuse. And she tells me, film everything. She's like, no matter what you do, if. Film everything you do. And I'm like, okay. So the next day.

[Hannah]

Wait, can I just quickly ask what made you say to her that it was abusive? Because up until this point, it sounded like you weren't quite there yet.

[Talia]

Yeah, I slowly, maybe not even so slowly, I think I always knew that it was abusive, and I finally was just facing it because July was so bad. Every day I was crying. Every day was hell. If I didn't have a job, I probably wouldn't have gotten out of bed, you know? And it wasn't even depression anymore. Like, I. I wasn't even thinking about the stuff that happened back in May, two months prior. I was just every day trying to get through that day. And at that time, I was like, he gaslights me. I know what gaslighting is. And I'm being gaslit, but I'm falling for it, you know? And that's when I was like, this is abusive relationship. But I didn't know the extent of it, if that makes sense. I was like, oh, it's slightly abusive. And then I told her, and she was like, no, no, no, no. This is very abusive. This is really bad. And I remember reading that questionnaire and crying. I was like, holy, she's right, you know? So that Friday, my friend Grayson, he was like, let's hang out and blah, blah, blah. And I was like, oh, I don't think I can. Sorry. I'm blowing people off just in case Finn makes plans with me. Because if I'm out, well, he's wants to hang out, then I'm in trouble. So I tell Finn. I was like, hey, Grace asked me to hang out, but I said no, because hopefully we hang out later. And Finn's like, sure, we can take your dog on a walk later. I'm elated. I'm like, finally my dog gets to go on a walk. And I'm like, sweet. So I clear my schedule that I didn't have, and I'm just sitting and sitting and sitting and waiting and waiting and waiting. And eventually it's like 10 o'clock at night, and I'm bawling my eyes out. I felt like such a little kid being promised a toy. And then it getting ripped from you, you know, that's like the only way I can explain it. And me and him are fighting, and I'm like, you promised to walk my dog with me. And he's like, just go walk her. And I'm like, well, it's 10:00 at night now. I'm not gonna go walk her. And.

[Hannah]

And also, you're just scared to do anything.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

That he doesn't let you do.

[Talia]

If. Cause in my head, I was like, if I go on this walk, I know he's taking long, but if I go on this walk and he finds out I went on the walk, like, it. That's just where I was. So he comes over and we're fighting super, super bad. My house is really small, so I'm like, let's take this outside. Let's take the dog on a walk. Let's just get out of these four walls kind of thing. And we're on the walk. And we get down the street from my house a little past, and then he starts fighting with me again. And he takes my dog, like, he takes the leash and he turns around and he walks away. And it's midnight.

[Hannah]

No, no, no midnight.

[Talia]

And I live on the outskirts of downtown. And so it's just. It's a Friday night. I'm like, people are gonna, you know, be drinking and driving and stuff, whatever. And I remember I was standing there and I just had my eyes Closed. And I was like, my life, like, are you kidding me? And that's, like, when it started in my head. I was like, you need to leave. And then all of a sudden, it snapped. I was like, he has my. He has my fucking dog. You know, Excuse my language. But I was like, okay, Mama bear mode activated. And he's way ahead of me at this point. He's, like, 20ft ahead of me. And I'm calling his name, and then I start calling his phone. He's not answering. And I'm at this point, I'm, like, catching up. I see him go into my house, and I'm, like, three houses down, and I hear music. Like, bumping music in a car. And I just remember my spine going cold. And I turn around, and these dudes roll up to me in a car, and they fling the door open, and they're all get in, like, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, no, no, no. Like, no, thank you. No, thank you. I'm trying to be, like, polite. And then they're like, okay. Like, you. You know, fucking bitch. Whatever. And as they're peeling off, like, they peeled out. And Finn comes out of my house to see the commotion. And I look at Finn, and I just drop to my knees, and I'm sobbing. Like, I am hyperventilating. I was, like, gonna throw up. And he's, like, picking me up off the ground, and he's like, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. And then he starts crying because he wasn't outside to defend me, so now I'm a victim. Yeah. And he's like, okay, let's pack your things up. Let's go to my house. And I'm like, okay. Like, I just want to. I just wanted to get out my house. I shut all my blinds, and so we pack up my things. And he's like, just stay the night at my house. Your house clearly isn't safe. My house is safe, right? And we get to his house, and then he accuses me of lying. He goes, that never happened. He's like, you were just mad I walked off. What?

[Hannah]

Oh.

[Talia]

And I'm like, God, yeah. And I. At this point, I was so defeated. I remember I wasn't even crying. I just, like, was slumped over. And he's like, if that were real, you would have called the cops. And I was like, you came out, like, speechless. And I'm defending myself. I'm describing the car to him. I'm like, it was a white whatever it was with red leather. Like, I was like, how would I know all those details? He's like, you're literally just making them up. And so we fight about that. And then I'm like, you know what? Fuck this. I'm leaving. And so I open his front door and I start walking out. And he just stands on his doorstep. And I'm thinking, like, it's a four minute drive, so it has to be a 20 minute walk, you know, like that.

[Hannah]

And the fact that you would walk to get away from him after what had just happened to you.

[Talia]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

Just shows how desperate you were to get away.

[Talia]

I was so desperate. And I remember turning back and he's like standing on his doorstep, and the one light is illuminating him and he's just standing with his arms crossed. And I just. I just felt trapped. And I just turned around and I walked back into his house. Like, I was like, I don't know. And then he starts accusing me even more of lying because then he's like, you wouldn't have walked if that actually happened to you. And I'm fighting for my sanity at this point. And at one point, he gets in the shower and I go to his backyard because I'm like, I just. I don't know where to go. And I laid on the deck flat on my back. And I remember I put my hands on my forehead like that, and I was looking at the stars. And I was like, I need to get out of this situation. Like, I need this. I can't. So I'm on his back porch, I'm contemplating life and his shower. The window faces the backyard. And he's opening it, checking that I'm there, slamming it shut, opening it, checking him there. And I'm just there. I wasn't crying. I wasn't. I was just calm. Like, I remember. Yeah. And he comes out, he gets out of the shower, and he pulls over a camping chair and he sits it over my body. And I'm laying on the ground, and he leans over me. And in like the most dad voice ever, he goes, you are not good. He's like, you are not a good person. And I had to say, you're right, Finn. I'm sorry that I did xyz and I'm not a good person. I'll do better. And then he goes, no wonder why Liam left you. And I would have to say, you're right, Finn. I'm sorry. I did X, Y, Z. And Liam left me. And then he goes, your friend Chris, I don't know if you remember, Chris was my buddy that passed away. He Goes, chris would be so disappointed in you right now.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, my God.

[Talia]

And he goes down the list of everything I've ever told him in my life, basically.

[Hannah]

And he's sitting, like, on top of you, essentially.

[Talia]

Like, the chair's, like, over you, the chair's over me.

[Hannah]

And I can't go anywhere.

[Talia]

No. I'm just laying there, like. I was like, okay, anything he's saying, I was just repeating as an apology. And this went on for 15 minutes maybe, and then he goes, and you're the reason why I'm not going to get my nine hours of sleep tonight so I can be ready for my meet tomorrow. As he's saying that, he picks up the camping chair and he chucks it against the wall and it breaks. And that's when I sat up. That's when I was like, whoa. And then he turns around and I start filming. I put my phone in my pockets. I have my sweatpants on. And we go to his kitchen, and he's stomping around, and he's, oh, look at me, Finn. A big, scary guy. And look, Talia, so skewed. He's talking like that. And he's flaming shit. He's throwing shit. He, like, is grabbing his beef and rice from the fridge, and he opens the door, and he slams the fridge so hard, he breaks it. The door bounces open. Everything falls out of it. Like, everything in the refrigerator, shit's breaking. And I was like, holy shit. I don't know what to do. And I did start recording stuff after that, and then maybe two days later, this guy Nick texts me. So Nick is someone that I had met. I was 16, I want to say I was 16 at, like, a house party. Followed each other on Instagram. Never hung out again. It was just an Instagram friend. I was, like, 25 at this point. So, like, 10 years. And he text me randomly one day, and he's like, hey, I just want to reach out because I saw that you had posted a picture with Finn at the baseball game. And he's like, are you okay? And I was. I was like, I don't fucking know you. Like, I don't know you. And I got kind of defensive, and I was like, yeah, we're great. We're so in love. And he was like, oh, that's awesome. I was just asking. We have a little bit of a history, him and Finn, and I just wanted to check on you. And I was like, yeah, no, we've known each other for X amount of years. And it was this love that built up over the years, like, just going off the script, you know, that is ingrained in me at that point. And he is like, okay, that's great. Like, I didn't need to tell me all that. And this is all over textile. And I'm like, yeah, and everything's great, but he gets mad sometimes, and I don't know why I was doing this. And I just remember thinking, like, oh, my God, I'm in so much trouble if Finn finds out. And so I vented to Nick a little bit. I think I did, because it was like he was such a random person.

[Hannah]

And it almost doesn't feel real.

[Talia]

Yeah, it was like chatgpt or something. I was like, yeah, I don't know.

[Hannah]

You going in the void?

[Talia]

Yeah. And I started being a little honest. And then I remember thinking, oh, no, I'm gonna be in trouble. So I deleted all the text messages where I wasn't saying anything. That was stellar. And then I went to Finn's house, and I was like, oh, Finn, you know, that Nick guy? He messaged me, and I told him, love, we are. And Finn's like, let me see. And I was like, okay. So I, like, give him my phone, and he's reading through it, and he's like, I hate this guy. And then he's like, show me your deleted messages. And I was like, oh. And I was like, you can't do that, silly. And he's like, no, yes, you can. And I was like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. You know, and I kind of try to gaslight him a little bit. Can't gaslight a gaslighter, though. And I was like, you just want to fight today? And I got in my car, and I'm booking at home. I was like, oh, my God. I look in my review mirror, he's chasing me. Oh, my God.

[Hannah]

Oh, my gosh.

[Talia]

And we're in a car chase now I'm freaking out. I'm trying to take different roads, and he's following me. And I don't condone lying about deleted messages, but in that moment, like, that's why I had to lie, you know, 100%.

[Hannah]

He's manipulated you so much. It's so much coercion.

[Talia]

Yeah. And mind you, while this is going on, he still hates Ed. He still wants me to ruins Ed life. He wants to murder Steve. It's not stopping. It's just adding on. So I'm in this car chase, and the last number I had texted was Nick, and I called him, and I Was like, I'm actually not okay. Like, SOS kind of thing. And Nick was like, do I need to go get you? And mind you, I have never met this person, like, other than 10 years ago. And I was like, actually, if you do, I think things will get worse. Like, I'm sorry, My bad. Just pretend I never called you, you know? But that's when I started realizing that's two people I told that I was in an abusive relationship. And that's what I started noticing. Oh, my God. I'm, like, telling people. So my facade's either gonna shatter or I'm actually gonna get out of this. So Finn comes over, and I come clean. I was like, hey, I'm sorry. I engaged in inappropriate conversation where I spoke poorly of you, whatever. And he wants to go to therapy over it. It was a lot more dramatic than that. But, you know, it's a huge fight. He wants to go to therapy again to talk about it. So I make an appointment, and in my text, my therapist, I said, this is my last ditch effort. And she was like, okay, then I'll see you guys one more time. Because she told me. She's like, I this. You guys are beyond couples therapy. Like.

[Mackenzie]

Like, way beyond.

[Talia]

Yeah. And so we go in, and Finn is. He told her about the texts with Nick and this and that and me being a gold digger again, like, all sorts of things. And my therapist was agreeing with him.

[Hannah]

What?

[Talia]

And what? I was livid. I was like. I was like, you're fucking kidding me. And he's like, yeah, you're right, you're right. Blah, blah, blah. And he's elated. He leaves the session 10 minutes early because he got what he needed, you know? So then it's just me and my therapist. So Finn is walking out, and the door's closing behind him, and she's doing, like, the little wave. She's, like, waving at him till the door closes. The door closes. She looks at me. She said, run. And I was like, no.

[Hannah]

I was hoping that was it. I hope she was just like, I'm just gonna appease him.

[Talia]

That's exactly that she said. She was like, I have to agree with him because you are not safe. And that was the first time I ever considered him a narcissist. Because she was like, I legally can't diagnose him because he's not my client. But she was like, narcissists are the hardest people to diagnose because they're liars. And she was like. And this boy just told me so many Lies.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Talia]

And I was like, I was so nervous. Oh, my God.

[Hannah]

To be like, we gotta get her license out. No, but that makes so much sense. And it's true, because they do it to the therapist as much as they do it to everyone else. And they're so good at it. And it's like, how long does it take for you in a relationship to find out that somebody's a narcissist? Couldn't take years. Same thing for therapists.

[Talia]

Yeah. And when she said narcissist, I thought of my mom and I was like, you know, people, like, they think narcissists are people who just take a bunch of selfies all day. I'm like, no, no, no, no. It is so much deeper. It's so dark. And she really explained to me that day how it's all about the ego. And she was like, you're hurting his ego when you're not apologizing and doing stuff like that and he's going batshit crazy on you. And I was like, huh, you're right. So I secretly booked a flight to Argentina. I. I booked one on like a Friday, and I left on a Sunday. Like, I wrapped up right at work. Yeah. And then I was like, I'm not gonna tell Finn. And so I asked Steve to watch my dog. And mind you, there's like a two, two, three day gap here between me buying it and me leaving. And I eventually tell Finn. And I was like, yeah, and Steve's gonna watch my dog. And he's pissed. He's so mad. And I was like, I don't have anyone else, too. And Finn flips his fucking shit because I booked a ticket for 18 days. I was like, I'm out of here. And he was screaming at me and fighting, and it just. It turned so ugly to the point where I ended up going home. And I called Liam's sister, and she was living two hours away from me, and she hopped in her car at 10:00 at night, and she came and she drove to be with me. And I'll never. It was just Makes you so emotional. She came to my house, she cleaned my entire house. She packed my bag, she took the corners in on the sheets, you know, like she. And so I remember me and Liam's sister, we had a knife out on the counter all night. Like my biggest knife, which I was like, I don't even know if we were gonna, like, use it or not kind of thing. But Finn, he's driving around my house. He's driving around my house. Yeah. And he's like, whose car is that? And I'm like, oh, it's my friend. Yeah. And I was like, tay's texting. He's calling. I was like, it's my friend. I didn't say it was Liam's sister, because I was like, yeah, you know, freak. And he's like, telling me, I don't want you to leave tomorrow. Like, are you actually leaving? And then it's like, I hate you and this and that. Just whiplash. And so we went to bed. He wanted to know the time I was leaving. I told him later in the day, my flight was in the morning, but I was like, oh, like 3pm, you know? And so it was like, Seal Team Six getting me out of my house. Steve came over, gets my dog. But I was like, you can't be parked on my street for too long because he's gonna see your car. Yeah. And she took me to the airport, and I was just like, oh, my God. I made it. Like, I made it out of my house, you know? And I get a text from Finn a little bit later. So I had just gone to the airport, mind you, I lied about the time, and I get a text from him saying, you're really gone. So he had gone to my house, and I was like, fucking. Thank God I left, you know?

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Talia]

I don't remember the flight there. I don't remember getting there. When you get to. When to Argentina, you have to take a bus to get to my grandma's house. It's like, six hours. I don't remember that. I don't remember anything. Like, I was so unwell, and Finn was texting me hundreds of text messages. The biggest apologies I've ever heard in my life. I don't know if you guys remember, but at one point, Jonah Hill realized he was abusive or something.

[Mackenzie]

I never heard that.

[Talia]

Oh, my God. I kind.

[Hannah]

This is ringing a bell, so recap it if you can.

[Talia]

Jonah Hill, as far as I remember, Jonas Hill's girlfriend, I won't say it was Jonah Hill.

[Mackenzie]

Jonah Hill's an actor, by the way.

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Talia]

He. His girlfriend posted some text between them, and he was, like, gaslighting her. And then Jonah Hill was like, I'm sorry to the world. Like, I'm abusive and I'm a gaslighter or something like that. He was like, I realize I'm abusive.

[Hannah]

I remember this. She was like a surfer.

[Talia]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Finn is like, I read the Jonah Hill case, and I realized I am Jonah, and I'm not responding to anything. And he's apologizing. He's apologizing for making me apologize. He's. He's doing everything, you know, and their text, like, they're huge novels, huge text. So, yeah, I get to Argentina and I'm there alone. I mean, I was with my grandma, but she's in her 80s, so she was just at home. But I was like, holy shit, I'm alone. Like, whoo. You know, like, I made it kind of thing. Wow.

[Hannah]

So it felt good or scary or how did it feel?

[Talia]

It was scary because I was like, I just left the. I fled the country. But at the same time, he's sending me everything I've ever wanted to hear and he's admitting to being abusive behavior and he's telling me he's getting a new therapist and blah, blah, blah. So then I'm sad and I'm also scared because I was like, what's going to come of me not talking to him? Because I don't know how to not talk to him? What's going to happen if I talk to him? There's so. There was so much to it and I can't even. Like, I was actually going through them when I was putting together the storyline and I was like, wow. He knew every. He knew everything. To apologize for. Sorry for scaring you. I'm sorry. I was scared.

[Mackenzie]

He knew what he was doing the whole time.

[Talia]

The whole time. So at this point, I'm not texting him. I'm getting at least 20 texts a day kind of thing. So it was this point's my therapist, Liam's sister, Steve, and Nick know what's going on. And so Nick is texting me. He's checking on me here and there. And then I'm like, what's this beef you guys have? And he goes, years ago, Finn went to this bar, Nick, all his friends, and Nick's ex girlfriend was there. So then Finn sees Nick's girlfriend and he's trying to get her to go in the bathroom with him to do cocaine.

[Hannah]

What? Oh, has he ever done drugs like that with you or around you?

[Talia]

No.

[Hannah]

Okay.

[Talia]

I was like, huh? And Finn, I guess he was pressing the matter, pressing the matter, pressing the matter. And Nick finally stepped in and was like, dude, leave my girlfriend alone. You're being creepy. You're asking a girl to go to the bathroom with you. You know? Meanwhile, Finn's story to me is Nick's a drug addict and his girl hot. Yeah. And I was like, huh, interesting, you know? So that started to come to light. And then Nick, he's texting me periodically. And he's more than periodically, actually. He's, like, constantly checking on me, and I'm opening up to him, like, this is who I am, and this is why I think I get in these relationships and stuff. And we're just like. Like, it was like, chat GPT. Like, I was like, there's no face to. I know what you look like, but I've never hung out. I don't even know anything about you, really. So we're texting, and he's just being a really good support system. Liam's sister's texting me, but eventually. And I can't remember what he texted me that got me to reply, but I did. I don't remember what the text was that did me in, that one that got me. But it really was when he started saying that with that whole Jonah Hill thing, that Jonah Hill, like, realized he was abusive. And then Finn was like, I realized that I have abusive tendencies. He never said that. He was. Was always like, I have these tendencies. That, to me, was so validating to hear from the abuser themselves. And he really made it seem like he really leaned on that Jonah Hill thing. So he really made it seem like I. I totally see it now, and I'm so sorry. And he was saying things like, you're an angel on earth, and I can't believe I ever hurt you. Just stuff like that where. Where he had told me for months that I'm this horrible, horrible gum on the bottom of a shoe kind of person. And then he's like, you're actually this wonderful human being, and you have done so much for me. And, like, he started acknowledging all the things I had done for him and being like, I'm so sorry. I can't believe I did this. And then he's like, every night I sit with myself and I. I think about what I've done, and I feel so horrible. And he was even like, if I never get to be with you again, I'm going to always remember this, and I hope one day you can forgive me. Like, he just. It was so good, everything he was saying. Like, he was so good at it. He was so good at sounding so sincere. It was text messages and voice recordings, and I could. I felt like I could hear the sincerity in his voice, and he sounded so sad, and I don't even remember what the text was that made me text him back, but it just was. It was all so much and all I was doing for. Especially the first few weeks, I Was there the first couple days at least. I was just laying in bed pretty much all day thinking about everything that had just happened and barely even getting to process it because I'm getting all these text messages. And I remember it was like a three word response or something very simple. And then he's begging for forgiveness and he's getting in my head again. And I'm. Now I'm not really texting other people back. It's all about him. And he totally hijacked my vacation because now he's like, when you come back, I'm gonna propose to you and blah, blah, blah. And he tells me that he has a fantasy of him showing up at home and I'm on his doorstep waiting for him. And this is a fantasy he's had since 2017. When I broke things off with him. He said every day I came home from work and I was hoping you'd be on my doorstep. And he was like, can you do that for me when you get back from Argentina? He didn't know when I was coming back. And he was like, it'll heal me and maybe I'll be better. Like, I'll be nicer if you do this. And I was like, okay, I guess if it's that simple. And he's like crying his eyes. I don't know when I became this person. And so I'm like, you know, he's promising a lot, so I guess I can just show up on his doorstep when I get back kind of thing. And he.

[Hannah]

So did you want it to. Do you want to get back together?

[Talia]

I didn't. Well, yes, it's hard.

[Hannah]

I know it's a hard question because you're like a different person at that point.

[Talia]

Yeah. And I wanted to get back with the version of him that was texting me while I was there.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Talia]

Because.

[Mackenzie]

Yes. Yes. That makes so much sense. Oh, my God.

[Talia]

Yeah. It never existed. But this was the first time I was actually sleeping at night. My grandma was constantly feeding me and I was like, wow. I was going to the gym every morning. I was very healthy while I was there. And then he's texting me all these sweet things and I was like, maybe we can have this, you know? And they were. Oh, God, his texts were so good. They were so romantic. Everything. Yeah. So I make this plan with Olivia to train with him, and then I will show up on his doorstep and I will heal him and he will be a nice person from here on out. That's the plan. And I.

[Hannah]

Did Olivia know the details?

[Talia]

No. So she. She was kind of trying to prize a. Kind of a strong word, but she would be like, oh, how are you and Finn? A lot. She's always like, oh, you two are the it couple. You guys are so cute. You guys are a Disney movie and all this stuff. So make the plan with Olivia. And she's totally on board. She's like, this is the cutest thing ever. He's always talking about it in our sessions. He really wants the, like, doorstep thing to happen. And I'm like, he's telling. Like, he's telling his clients about this. So there was one day I. My cousin was like, I'm going to take you to this waterfall. And I remember standing at the edge of the waterfall, and it's like the kind of waterfall, if you fall, you know, it's a tall one. Yeah. And I stood on the edge of it, and I just remember throwing my arms out, and I was like, I am so happy to be alive. I am so happy. That trip for me was so healing.

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Talia]

And I started doing so much inner work. I booked this tree house jungle thing, and I was alone in this tree, and there's, like, monkeys around. I was on top of the jungle, like, by myself, journaling. I was like, I'm gonna heal myself. Because I. I was so happy with everything that was going on with Finn. He was being so nice, but I knew. I was like, if this comes crashing down, I need to take care of myself. He's giving me the best right now, but I am preparing for the worst. So that trip for me was a complete 180 on my mental. Honestly, like, my. My personal mental outside of Finn. And that's really when I. I started, like, I said, prepping. I was like, just in case I need to detach myself from him emotionally. And I'm going to listen to everything he's saying and hope it's true, but if it's not, like, I'm not going to fall into a black hole basically without him. So from that waterfall day, I posted a picture in the waterfall, and Ed commented on it, like, just a fairy emoji or something. Just something very, very simple. And I was like, nope. And I deleted it so quick because I was like, I'm going to be in trouble. I'm gonna be in so much trouble. And then Finn calls me, and he's like, I saw Ed's comment.

[Hannah]

He's like, watching you watch all day, every day, it seems.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Talia]

Yeah. And I was like, hey, no, it's fine. And then I. I texted Ed. And I was like, we can no longer talk. And I did unfollow him on Instagram, and I screenshotted it, and I sent it to Finn, and I was like, look, I don't even. I don't even follow him anymore. Like, you don't have anything to worry about. Finn was having none of it. He's seeing red. He freaks out, and he's like, I'm going to ruin your life. Like, he says this. He's like, I'm going your life. And I am trying to diffuse. And he is telling me, like, this is all in text. He's like, I'm gonna go scorched earth, and I'm gonna ruin you. I'm gonna ruin Ed. I'm gonna ruin Liam. I'm gonna. He's, like, listing people he's gonna ruin. And I was like. Because he commented a fairy or a mermaid or whatever it was, you know?

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Talia]

And I'm trying to calm the situation down and also not worry my grandma because I'm, like, hyperventilating, and he is screaming at me over the phone. He's FaceTiming me. He's calling me. He's texting me. He's doing everything right. And he's like, I'm gonna find Ed. And he's Googling Ed and trying to figure out his number, and he's telling me that. He's like, he's really hard to find. And then, like, a whole bunch of transphobic slurs and stuff. And at one point, I kind of calm him down a little bit, and we FaceTime, and he is bawling his eyes out, and he's telling me, I want you to hurt as bad as I hurt on that 2017 camping trip.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, my God.

[Talia]

Yeah. And he was like, I want all these people to hurt. And because you humiliated me at that camping trip, and I need you to hurt as bad as I did, and that's why he wanted me to ruin everyone's life.

[Mackenzie]

My God.

[Hannah]

Hold on. What? Wait, so was all of this in Revenge of the camping Trip?

[Talia]

Yeah.

[Mackenzie]

Wait, no.

[Talia]

It is July 2023 at this point, and that camping trip was May of 2017.

[Hannah]

Wait, so he pursued you and did all of this just because of. Keep going. I'm like, I'm beside myself.

[Talia]

And when he told me that, I was like, whoa. Like, whoa, whoa, whoa. You know? And he goes, I started doing steroids because of how buff George was at that camping trip. What? I was like, I'm so sorry about that camping trip. So I'm sending Every apology, he's like, I was humiliated, and now I want to destroy you. So he's like, every time I get mad at you, I want to hurt you like you hurt me at that trip.

[Hannah]

No, you don't. Oh, my God.

[Talia]

And in the moment, the, like, realization of this confession, I guess, didn't really hit me, but it'll come back around later because there's more there. So just hold on to that. And so I calm him down. I jump on an emergency zoom with my therapist, and I'm telling her. I was like, I don't know what to do. And she's like, I think you should switch your flight, because I think it's going to be really unhinged when you come home.

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Talia]

So then Ed texts me, and Finn had venmoed at 5 cents and was like, we need to talk.

[Mackenzie]

Wait, what?

[Talia]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

Damn. Any way to get in touch with somebody?

[Talia]

Yeah. And Ed responds, leave me the fuck alone. I have nothing to say to you. And then he Venmo's Ed again. Like, if I were you, I'd want to hear what I had to say. And so Ed blocks him. At this point, I'm like, now this is blackmail. Now you're blackmailing me? Yeah. And then Ed blocks him. Finn gets pissed at me, and he's like, he hates me now. He should hate you. And I was like, you did this? And so now he's like, it's my fault that Ed blocked him on everything. So he's like, I'm gonna continue making socials until I can get a hold of Ed. And I told him, which is illegal. It's.

[Hannah]

It's harassment.

[Talia]

Oh, yeah.

[Hannah]

Stalking.

[Talia]

So then Finn is threatening to call Liam to tell him about that emotional affair I had with George. Now that's his next thing. He's like, okay, well, I can't contact Ed. And I am like, at this point, me and Liam had been broken up, I don't know, a couple years at that point.

[Hannah]

Yeah. I feel like you could just be like, tell him.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Talia]

But I was like, what's the point? So I'm in this emergency session with my therapist. While my phone is buzzing. I am reading them live to her, and she's like, okay, we're gonna craft out a text message together. You're gonna tell Finn you're blocking him. And I was like, I'm so scared to block him. I feel like he's gonna come to my house. You know, I'm not there. I'm texting Steve. I was like, make sure my Dog is. Does not leave your sights. And, you know. And these are some texts that Ben sent me, so he said, you don't deserve another second of my time. You don't deserve me. You are wicked. I was a fool for thinking there was more to you. A succubus, a siren, a demon disguised in human skin. You are wicked, and I don't want anything to do with you. Stay far the fuck away from me. God, I'm so fucking dumb. I hope to hear your voice one last time before I blocked you. But fuck that. You don't get to cause me that pain. And we were reading it and Googling half the shit he was saying because he. He went down the list of, like, mythical creatures that I am. And so me and my therapist had crafted that text that was very gentle. And I told him, I was like, okay, so I'm going to block you. Like, basically counting down, and I block him. I text Olivia, and I'm like, the plan's off. I'm not doing that doorstep. Except I should say, right before I blocked him, he was like, please show up on my doorstep still. Like, I need this. And so I. I blocked him. Tell her that plan's off. And a day or two goes by, and then I get a message from Ed, and Finn had found him on Facebook and had sent him screenshots of all these texts between me and Finn from when I was dating Ed of like, I'm not happy anymore. You know, stuff like that. And Ed was devastated. Ed was so heartbroken, and I was so sad. I was like. I'm like, I'm so sorry. There's no other thing for me to say, basically. And I unblocked Finn, and I was like, leave this poor boy alone. Like, stop trying to ruin him. He's like, collateral damage. I was like, ruin me or whatever at this point. And Finn tells me. He goes, I've had every single one of our text messages from 2017 saved for these moments in case I had to prove to people that you're not a good person. Keywords he could type in and it'd be a text message for me from 2018. And I was like, how do you have that memorized? You know?

[Hannah]

He was, like, waiting for the chance. It sounded.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, my gosh.

[Talia]

Yeah. And he got his chance.

[Hannah]

Did you think about calling police at.

[Talia]

All at that point? I didn't. Police just wasn't really on my radar. I had so many excuses. I had so many excuses.

[Hannah]

Yeah. No, I'm not. Yeah.

[Talia]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

I think that question was less to accuse you of having done something and more to, like, understand why people in that moment make those excuses not to, because that's pretty common.

[Talia]

I, I, that's the first time restraining order kind of popped in my head, but I was like, no, it'll be fine. So I remember leaving Argentina, and my grandma, my little grandma and my cousins were standing on the doorstep and they're waving at me, and I was just looking at my phone and I was googling, can you be in a relationship with a narcissist? Will it ever work out? Like, all these, like, sad questions and everything on Google was like, girl, no. Like, you cannot. And I get so sad that I'm like, wow. I, like, miss that moment with my family, saying bye to them, because I was just trying to make sure I was going to survive when I got back. So Finn is texting me that I better be on his doorstep. I better, I owe it to him, especially now. And blah, blah, blah, blah. And so I'm in the airport and Olivia texts me and she's like, you should go through with the plan. Like, Finn's not been himself lately. He's been crying during our sessions and this and this and this. And this girl really convinced me. She really, I will say she, like, single handedly convinced me to do it. And she was like, even if you guys aren't together, I think it'll be so healing for the both of you. And I was desperate at this point. And so she trains with him. I get home from Argentina, run home, shower, and then I sit on his doorstep. And he came home and he was elated. He's so happy. And we hugged each other, and we're like, so sad. And we mutually end it. We're like, okay, no more. This is done. So I go home, and the next day, this boy walks into my house. He has a key, right? Oh, no. He gave me my key back. I don't know what key this is.

[Hannah]

Oh, so you had made some copies. Great.

[Talia]

I don't know if he took it. I don't know. And I've since changed my locks. I'm like, I don't know if there was a third. I don't know. And I was really into, like, heatless curls at the time. And so I had heatless curls in my hair. And I remember my friend door opening, and I ripped them out of my head because I was, like, gonna use it as, like, a weapon. And he's so funny. And he walked in and he looks at me and I'm holding these heatless.

[Hannah]

Curls, these noodle things.

[Talia]

And he's like, were you scared? And I was like, yeah. And then I'm like, what are you doing here? And he's like, just wanted to check on you. Like, say hi. Can we not be friends? I want to be friends. Like, we've been friends for so long. And I'm working on my friendship with Izzy, too.

[Hannah]

Oh, my God.

[Mackenzie]

And here we go.

[Talia]

Yeah. So I am pissed at this. We get in a fight, of course, and he leaves. And so that's when things started shifting for me for sure. And that's around the time I started. I got really into podcasts. I was listening to Date Yourself instead. I don't know if you guys have heard of that one. Yeah, it's this, like, blonde New York girl who's just telling you not to let men treat you like shit. And I was like, you're right. Amen.

[Hannah]

Oh, yeah. I've seen the little cover of this.

[Talia]

And it's so good. And I was taking my dog on walks every single day for, like, 30 minutes, hour a day. And then I'd come home and I would journal. And at first I was journaling, and I'm writing letters too thin. And then eventually I switched the tune, and then I'm writing letters to myself. And so.

[Mackenzie]

That's so good.

[Talia]

Yeah. I started meditating. I was like. I found this detachment meditation guided thing, because I was like, I know there's more to come with him. He's too psycho for there not to be more. But I need to detach myself so when it happens, I can keep saying no. And then one night, he comes over and he would not leave my house. Like, Finn is not leaving my house. He's so planted in my house that I leave my house. I get in my car and I leave. And then I was driving around, and I was like, wait, hang on. Like, that's my. I pay rent there. Yeah. Are you kidding me? And I came back inside, and he had ripped up my Amazon box that I had delivered, and he's silently writing on it with a pen. I'm time to get out. Get out, get out. Eventually, I start screaming at the top of my lungs for him to get out. And he's like, no, I'm writing a letter to myself to remind me to never try to date you again.

[Mackenzie]

Okay.

[Talia]

And I'm crying and screaming for him to get out. My dog runs up to him and she bites him. And then she retreats to the closet, and she's hiding, and then he goes up to her and he's like, you scared your dog. Like, look, you're such a bad dog owner. And he's like, oh, come here, little one. Yeah. And I'm screaming. Like, my throat is hurting. Screaming. He calls the cops on me. What? He calls the cops on me. He calls a. A cop and asks them to bring an ambulance because I'm suicidal. And I was like, what? So I call the cops, and I'm like, hey, this is a total misunderstanding. I do not need cops here. He won't get out of my house. And the dispatch lady's like, okay. She was kind of like, I mean, I can't do too much at this point. And I was like, do anything. Like, please, I don't need this whole floodlight shit again.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Talia]

So an ambulance rolls up to my house, and I go outside, and I meet them out there. There was two paramedics, and one came up to me, and they were doing the whole, like, gentle talk with me. And I told them. I was like, I'm completely fine. I need this person out of my house, though. And I think because he called, they were letting him be in charge of that situation. And so they wanted to take my vitals. And I think he told them that I had taken medicine or something because they wanted me to get in the back of the ambulance, and they want to take my vitals. And I absolutely refused. I had to sign paperwork, and only one of them was talking to me, and Finn had the other one at the front of the ambulance. And then he asked the both of them to talk. And I was like, I'm gonna go inside, you guys. Like, please turn off your floodlights and, like, get off my property, because, you know, I have a billion neighbors around me. And then they stayed outside talking to Finn for such a long time because he had taken every medicine out of my house. And, like, ibuprofen. Like, seriously, I'm not even kidding. Like, gas X. He took everything out of my house and, like, showed them this huge bag. I think he was trying to make me seem so crazy. So when I was like, I need him gone, they did not have my back at all. Like, not even in the slightest. And that was the first time the cops failed me, basically. So I was like, hello. You know? So my best friend who lives in the Midwest, her boyfriend texted me and said that he was proposing and wanted me to go there. And I remember my best friend getting engaged. I helped set it up, and it was so beautiful. And I was sobbing, and I was like, I'm gonna be single until I'm 30, I'm gonna be single. I can't do this. I'm done with Finn. I am done with him. And that's when I was like. I felt it in my soul. I was like, I am done with him and I can't do this anymore. I was like, I'm going to graduate college. I'm going to be single. I'm going to listen to my little podcast of this, like, you know. Yeah. And so I get back. That was the end of August. Now we're in September, and Finn is texting me, and he's fighting with me all the time. Eventually, he blocks me because I'm not giving him the time of day, so he blocks me. And one day I got home from work and my poor little dog had shit all over my house.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, no.

[Talia]

It was so bad. I was not equipped with the cleaning supplies. So I texted Steve and I was like, do you have, like, a mop? Do you have anything? I need everything I can get right now. So Steve comes over and I'm cleaning, and he's just hanging out with me. And then Finn texts me, mind you, he had had me blocked. And he is like, oh, so you're having people over tonight? And I was like, excuse me, What? And me and Steve were like looking through the blinds, and Finn's like, oh, no, no, no. I saw Steve at your house. And then tells me what he's wearing.

[Hannah]

That's so threatening.

[Talia]

Yeah, like, he was like, he's wearing red shorts or whatever. And I'm freaking out. Like, I'm like, you're stalking me. Like, now you're stalking me. So Finn's pissed at me that I didn't call him to help me clean up the dog poop, even though he had me blocked. So.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, my God.

[Talia]

Yeah, so it's blowing up back and forth. We're fighting a lot. And then I just hop in my car and I drive to his house and I pound on the door. And I was like, are you stalking me? And he's like, I don't know what you're talking about. And I was like. You described to me what Steve was wearing. He's like, no, I didn't. And he gaslit me so hard that I was like, did that even happen? And I remember that night I went home and it was a military drill weekend, and I sat on my floor and I had a full blown out of body experience. I was looking at myself, look at myself in the mirror. And I was like, this needs to end. This needs to End. And I was like, I need to start telling more people what's going on. So at that point, a few people knew, but I was hiding that it was still going on. Like, I told them. Everyone's like, yeah, get rid of him. And I was like, I did. And then I was.

[Hannah]

But he's still texting you whenever he wants.

[Talia]

He's still lurking, and he's outside my window. And. Yeah, so. So now we're like, mid September, and my birthday was coming up, so I had scheduled a tattoo appointment in another city. So it's, like, my birthday weekend. I was, like, gonna be alone in a different city getting a tattoo. So Nick offered to go with me, and I was like, sure, why not? And we had so much fun together on the road trip to the Tattoo that on September 16, like, in the same road trip, we didn't even make it back to town. He's like, do you want to crash my sister's wedding? And I was like. I was like, hell, yeah. Like, let's do it. And so then the wedding's the 16th, and then it leads into the 17th, which is my birthday. And no one knew who I was. No one had an idea who I was. They put me on the bar. They're singing Happy Birthday to me at this wedding, and Finn is blowing my up at midnight. He's like, happy birthday, blah, blah, blah. And then he's like, why aren't you answering? And I think he helped block me. Unblocked me. Block me, Unblocked me on Instagram, saw that I was at a wedding. And then he's texting me, like, oh, I guess you're a single girl at a wedding. Like, I know how that goes kind of thing. And I'm like, shut the. Shut up.

[Hannah]

Stop texting me.

[Talia]

So I'm not texting him. I was not texting him at all. And so on the 18th, I'm back in town, I'm getting ready for school, and Finn comes to my house, knocks on the door, and he's like, I'm giving you a chance to redeem yourself. You can come to Costco with me.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, my God. I'm done.

[Talia]

We're done. And I was like, I don't want to go to Costco with you. And he's like, I'm giving you a chance. Like, you should take this chance. And I was like, no, I don't. This isn't a chance. And he's pissed because, you know, I'm. I'm. I.

[Hannah]

In his words, rejecting him.

[Talia]

You chose your birthday over Me for his exact words.

[Hannah]

And I'm a little confused of, like, in your mind, you're, like, not with him anymore. Like, you.

[Talia]

No. Yeah. At this point, after my friend got engaged, I was like, I'm done.

[Hannah]

Like, I see was still just harassing you, basically, even though you guys were.

[Talia]

I never told him explicitly, like, we're done. It was just. I let him air quotes again. I let him break up with me, and then I just got his idea.

[Hannah]

You have to. Yeah, you have to. And then you just started ignoring him, which is what all you can really do. Because, you know, even if you said, we're broken up, it's not gonna, like, work.

[Talia]

Yeah. So I think he noticed. I'm like, I didn't give a shit. Really. I mean, like, I care. He would leave, and I was, like, hyperventilating. But, you know, when he was at my house, I was like, no. Like, we are done. This is your doing, we're done kind of thing. So eventually, I scream at him. I'm like, get out of my house. I'm screaming. And my neighbor walks by. And when I'm screaming at him and my neighbor walks by, he switches up, and he looks at me. He's like, I don't know what's gotten into you. Yeah. And so my neighbor saw that. Yeah. So my neighbor.

[Hannah]

They do know that what they're doing is wrong, because then they pretend he.

[Mackenzie]

Want to make you look like the asshole.

[Talia]

And I slammed the door, and I was like, God damn it. And so I'm not talking to Finn, and he is texting me, and he'll be like, I drove by, but you weren't home. Where were you? And I'm not responding. And then on September 23rd, my best friend and her husband, they were coming to town. They're on their way to my house, and they're going to take me to dinner, go to a concert thing for my birthday. And I'm getting ready. I'm, like, feeling. I'm starting to get. I'm feeling better. I'm, like, listening to music and blah, blah, blah. And I hear the front door open, and I'm like, come in. You know, I think it's my friend and her husband. It's Finn. He's in my living room. He's shirtless in my living room. I was like, what are you doing here? You need to leave. And I text my friends, and I'm like, park outside my house. Be on standby fitness here. And they're like, do you need us to come in? And I Was like, no, I just. I was so scared of, like, a fight or something. I don't know what I was scared of.

[Hannah]

You're, like, trying to protect. You said from the very beginning, you're always trying to look out for everybody else.

[Talia]

Yeah. And then he's like, no, let's talk, like, blah, blah. And he's sitting on my couch, and he's doing the apology thing, and then this is where it all comes full circle, you guys. And then he says verbatim, he goes, I pursued you for seven years. Getting you is just the finish line. He goes, I don't give a fuck what happens to you now.

[Mackenzie]

What the hell?

[Talia]

Yeah. When he said, I pursued you for seven years and getting you was the finish line, I had tunnel vision. Everything he did was part of this whole plot.

[Hannah]

So he just made it his mission to make you a live in hell.

[Talia]

Yeah, pretty much. And then I physically backed away. And then he goes. And I knew I could start this plan because when you told me you had that emotional affair with George, he said, I knew that night I could have you. And that was the same night he tried to kiss me and I had rejected him.

[Hannah]

Right.

[Talia]

And that's. I had this realization, I swear to God. It was a moment of, like, my life flashing before my eyes. When he said that, I realized he broke up with his girlfriend at. At Coachella, that girl that he was originally dating, so that he could sleep with me.

[Hannah]

Right.

[Talia]

He never told her why they broke up. I knew that. But now it all made sense. He opened up his relationship with Ashley because I was having problems with Liam.

[Hannah]

And he just wanted to see if you would sleep with him.

[Talia]

Yep. Like, oh, my God, you know, Light bulb.

[Mackenzie]

Light bulb.

[Talia]

Light bulb, yeah. Sleeping with me and ruining my life was his goal because he wanted to make me hurt as bad as I made him hurt in 2017 on that camping trip where he made everyone, including myself, uncomfortable four score and seven years ago. And that's why, like, when I said we had sex and he'd look at me like, pray, I was like. Because it. I was. Yeah, I literally. What? That's all I was to him. I wasn't a person, you know? And I was also thinking, like, Liam wasn't a bad guy. Finn was planting the seeds with Liam. I would say we're having normal relationship problems, and Finn was telling me, liam's so horrible to me, but Liam, he was not a bad guy at all. We just had very different empathy levels. But Finn made it seem like he doesn't love you. And this and that.

[Hannah]

Oh, fully. He does this and that with Liam.

[Talia]

Yeah. And that was another thing too. I don't think I would have broken up with Ed at that time had Finn not. There were so many things I was realizing. And the main thing I realized, though was I had always had a lot of depression, but it always was really heightened when Finn was around. And I was like, when did I start feeling feelings of the suicidal ideation? February. When was the first time I hung out with Finn again? February. Like things were just clicking, finally clicking. And in my head I was like, I need a pretend that I'm not freaked out right now because I'm going to just get myself out of this house right now.

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Talia]

And so he was like, oh, can I go to the concert with you tonight? And I was like, oh, no, you can, you know. And I was just being so nice. And I was like, okay, you have to go now. And after that, I texted him multiple times saying, you are no longer welcome in my home. You're not allowed here. Stay away from me. They were very nice text messages, but they were very firm. And all those texts, they delivered green. So that doesn't mean blocked, though. Oh, blocked just says. It'll say delivered if it's delivered. If you're blocked, it won't say delivered. If it's green, it sends us text message.

[Hannah]

So why did it go green? Did he, like.

[Talia]

I don't.

[Hannah]

I don't know, another text or get another phone? Weird.

[Talia]

No, I. It kind of comes up a little bit later. I don't know how he was manipulating that, but I know he was. And so then at this point, I'm telling him, like, you're not allowed over anymore. And he's. He's battling it now. He's mean again. So fast forward a few days later. And then Olivia, she's like, hey, let's have a girls night. And like, let's watch Twilight. And I was like, okay. Like, I felt kind of awkward because I didn't know her that well, but I was like, okay, like, we can have a girls night. Come over here. We did like a charcuterie board thing and we put on Twilight. And she was like, how are you and Finn? Like, what's going on? And I was like, I can't talk about it with you. I'm sorry, you guys have a client, whatever. Relationship.

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Talia]

And I don't wanna get in the way of that. After that night, Finn amped up the crazy by so much. He started showing up to my house. He was texting me, like, way more than usual. He was being super mean. So I. On September 28, I wrote him a letter. It was basically like a cease and desist. I was like, you need to leave me alone. You are no longer welcome on my property. Like, blah, blah. And I wrote the letter because I was like, I need proof. Like, I need paper proof. I took pictures of it, right? Everything good. And I told him I was like, I'm gonna leave it in my mailbox. And he was like, no, you have to bring it to me. And I was like, no, I'm not bringing it to you, dude. And he insisted. He insisted. He insisted. And I was like, I need him to get this letter. So I turned on my location to Nick. I think he was the only one that had it at that point. And I was like, this is. I'm going on this mission right now. I'm literally gonna just stand on his doorstep and I'm gonna give it to him, and then I'm leaving. So I get to his house, and I knock on the door, and I stand on the doorstep, and he's like, come in. And I was like, no. And then he's not answering. So I open the door, and he's just, like, sitting on the couch. He's petting his dog. And he's not looking at me, and I, like, have my arm out. I'm like, here's your letter that you know. And he was like, just look at his dog, like, not saying a word. And I was like, can I come in and leave it on the table? And he's just not saying a word. So I. I go in and I put it on the table. And then he goes, I know what you're saying to my clients. He's like, you're trying to get my clients to hate me. He's saying, clients, plural? And I was like, no, I'm not. What are you talking about? He. I don't know how to explain it. He gaslit me so bad to the point that I thought I was stealing his clients. That is like, what? Yeah.

[Hannah]

You're not even. Are you a trainer?

[Talia]

No, I. I don't even go to that gym. Like, I. I remember thinking, like, did I go to the gym at one point and, like, wow. Put up flyers. And I was so, so stressed. At one point, I pulled out my phone and I showed him every text message between me and Olivia because I was like, I'm not talking about you. And he's like, yes, you are. Yes, you are. I know you are. I know you Are. And I ended up not reading the letter. And I was so. I was, like, about to implode. I grabbed it. I ripped it in half one time, and I dropped it and I left. I was like, I'm out of here. And a little bit later, I get home and he is texting me, and he's like, I had no idea you felt that way. I'm so sorry. I read your letter. Oh, my God, I'm sorry. And then he texted me seven times. And in one of those text messages, he goes, I think I'm going to go over and give you a hug.

[Hannah]

No, you're not. The hell you not. No, you're not.

[Talia]

Letter. The letter explicitly said, don't come over. Yeah. And so I grabbed my dog and I'm like, out of there. I was like, I don't care where I go. I'm leaving. So now we're in October, and Finn is sending me endless, like, love texts and letters and all this stuff, but at the same time, he was also texting me stuff like, Good morning at 6:15 today, I'll be waiting for you at my house, and this is an opportunity that you should seize. And he was like, and if you don't show up, I'm blocking you. And then I wouldn't respond. I did not respond at all to these. And he goes. Then at 6:15, he'd be like, it's now 6:15. I can't believe you're not taking this opportunity. I'm gonna extend my time a little bit, and then you can come over. And I'm. I'm just not responding. And so at this point, I went to my military supervisor and I told him everything. Like, I was like, I need to tell you something. Schedule time to sit down with him. And I was talking to him, and I was just looking down the whole time, and I could. Couldn't even look in his eyes. And he starts calling more people in. So now I'm surrounded by higher ups, and they're all asking me. And so one of the guys that was there, he is a cop in the civilian world. And after I told him about Finn, he's like, what drugs is he on? And I was like, no drugs, sir. He's sober. And he's like, you're describing a meth addict. And I was like. And I was like, no. Like, I'm not. And he goes, okay, so what's he on? And so I'm like, he's on steroids. And he's like, which steroid? And I'm like, It's called Tren. That's all I know about it. And I remember him leaning back in his chair and he goes, do you know what they call Tren? And I was like, no. And it's called the paranoid steroid. And it has the same paranoia that people on meth get. And the cop, he tells me, he goes, every single case I've ever worked with, a guy's on steroids. The girl does not make it out alive. And I was like, holy. And they. They asked me. They're like, what's the point of you telling us today? And I gave them his address. I gave them their. Like, his phone number and everything, because he. At this point, he was still threatening. He's like, I'm gonna find your commander and tell him that you were suicidal and all this stuff. And so I had them call the front gate. Even though he couldn't get on a military base, he's not military, but they knew, like, if he showed up to let somebody know. So now he's showing up to my house a lot. It's during the day, it's whenever. And there was one day, I opened the door, and then he was trying to come in, and I slammed it on him. And he put his foot in the door, and I saw red. I lost it on him. I was like, do not. You know, this is my space. Like, you broke up with me. And then he's like, I see it in your eyes. You're done with me. And I. I just want to show you, you know, I've changed and all this stuff. So he leaves. October 5th. I was literally sleeping, and I sat up, and I was like, he's here. Like, I know it. He's here. And then my dog starts barking. My dog starts freaking out. She's like, I've never heard this bark come from her before. It is like 1am and he's knocking on the door. He's calling me, and he's calling my name out loud. And I fell to my floor, and I was in a ball, sobbing. And I was like, I don't know what to do. And I was like, I. I should call the cops. That's the rational answer. I remember having my phone in my hands and not being able. I just couldn't. And I tried. Like, I physically was immobile.

[Hannah]

And he fight flight or freeze.

[Talia]

Yeah. And he's banging on my door. My dog's barking. He's also calling me, so my phone's vibrating. And then he's yelling my name. There's like, I was so overstimulated, you guys. And I'm hiding on the floor, and then I finally answer the phone, and he's like, please come out here. Please, please come out here. And so I open the door a crack, and I was like, you need to go home. This is super scary for me. And he's like, please let me in. I just want to talk. And I'm like, no, like, you can't. Like, we're done. We're done. Get out of here. And he leaves, and I close my door, and I was like, 5, 4, 3. He comes back and this. I kick him out again. And then he leaves, and then he comes back again. So three times in one night. And he's sending me texts all day. And then he sends me 30 minutes worth of voice recordings telling me how much he hates me, how much he despises me. So I responded to the voice messages and I said, these voice messages are very alarming. I'm putting my foot down. No more. Do not text me like this anymore. Don't show up to my house uninvited. Do not give me fake apologies. And don't blow my phone up with horrible texts afterwards. Do not call me. Do not leave letters on my house. Stay away from me. And then he goes, thanks for listening with a smiley face. And I was at the point if my dog barked, I would drop to the floor.

[Hannah]

Yeah, just so panic.

[Talia]

If I, like, sneeze too loud, she would run to the closet and hide like we were unwell in this house. So I go to therapy. I'm in therapy still, and my therapist diagnosed me with acute stress disorder. So October 12, Finn comes over twice. I'm in the shower one time, I have, like a full blown panic attack. So then he leaves. I, like, put on a movie. And the second time, he. I hear my gate open, and I hear one just loud knock on the door. And then he texts me and he goes, left a note under your mat. And I was literally laying on the floor crying. And I finally, like, it's been a, you know, a couple minutes, 30 minutes, honestly. And I open the door, I take a picture, and then I grab the letter. And this letter pissed me off so bad. It was the biggest apology letter ever. So then me and Nick, we went to coffee, and I was trying to downplay it, and I was like, oh, you know, the weather is nice. Like, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I remember Nick was just staring at me, and he just goes. He just, like, nods his head and he's like, it's time. And he drove me to the courthouse, and we filed a restraining order. I. Well, a tpo. I was there for hours writing everything. Because as I was writing, I was like, this is the six, seven year plan. Like, this is what it was. So I did that. And I was, like, scared shitless. I was like, he's gonna come for me. So Finn gets served, and then Finn texts me one last time, and it's a picture of the card that the cop left at his door. And Finn texts me, and he goes, what's going on? I'm scared. And I. I'm not responding at all.

[Hannah]

Because isn't it that if you respond, that can be, like, against you in the future?

[Talia]

Well, at this point, too, I had about 120 unread, like, texts from him.

[Hannah]

No big deal.

[Talia]

Yeah. And I was just like, no, I'm not responding. So we filed a TPO together, and the next night, I'm at a restaurant with Nick, and Ashley is our server.

[Hannah]

Whoa. Okay.

[Talia]

And I'm like, nick, I need to leave. Like, I don't want to see her. She hates me. And Nick was like, maybe get her side of the story, you know? And so I do. I. At dinner, she acted like she didn't really know me. They had known each other for a while. So I messaged her on Instagram, and I apologize. Like, I'm so sorry for whatever role I played that I didn't even know I played, you know, kind of thing. And she told me. She's like, yeah, Finn opened up our relationship so that he could have sex with you. That was his plan. And I knew it, and he told me. And that's why she was like, I hated you. I hated you so much.

[Hannah]

Yeah, of course.

[Talia]

And I was like, I'm so. I'm so sorry. So we apologized to each other, and then I kind of left it at that. I never talked to her again. But I was like, it felt good. And I'm sure it felt good for her, too, to. To hear that, because he made it sound like I was in on this. And I was like, no, I was not. So Nick had a friend who's a lawyer, and he connected me to the lawyer. And so the lawyer was giving me advice, and I was like, yeah, I just want to leave me alone, blah, blah. I told the lawyer the story and stuff, and he goes, this is domestic abuse. This is stalking. This is all sorts of things. And he pulls out another handy dandy list, and Finn checks all the boxes, except, like, two. Except for hitting me, you know? So a couple Days later, he files all his paperwork for. He filed it first. Olivia had fabricated all the text messages. So it looked like I told her I was showing up to his house and she didn't think it was a good idea.

[Hannah]

This Olivia.

[Talia]

I know. So there's like two dogfish in this story. And so because he filed everything first, I could see it and I saw they. They or her, I don't know, strategically deleted messages. So it looked like. It looked like I was having, like a one sided conversation with myself.

[Mackenzie]

This is why I never, ever, ever, ever, ever trust a screenshot. You can't get me to trust it. I will never trust a screenshot. I don't care that. That is too easy. Nope, it is nothing.

[Talia]

And that's why, like, when I wrote him that, like, cease and desist letter, that's why I did a letter. Because I was like, my one text message, the one that went green, didn't get to him, but I was like, I know it did. I know it got to him because.

[Hannah]

He'S going to deny that.

[Talia]

Yeah. So he is saying that I am crazy. I show up to his house, he has screen grabs of me on his doorstep.

[Hannah]

And oh, my gosh. So he starts fighting you.

[Talia]

Yeah. He is saying that I faked a pregnancy to trap him, which I was like, but I wasn't pregnant, so. Okay. Yeah, I was. That I faked a suicide to manipulate him. And he said everything that he is. He said that I am.

[Hannah]

Yes.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, that's.

[Hannah]

So did he have a lawyer?

[Talia]

No. So I was. This lawyer was going to represent me, but he had an actual case that day. So it was like the morning of. He's like, I'm so sorry, I can't represent you today. And I was like. So I went In, I submitted 200 pages of text messages, one flash drive of videos, one flash drives of voice recordings. I had witness statements from Ed, Liam's sister, Steve, from Nick, from my therapist. I came from ready. Like, I was like, she got the receipts. I had all the receipts. And then the day of court comes and Nick shut down his restaurant and so I could have, like, a space to do it. And.

[Hannah]

Wow.

[Talia]

Yeah. And it was over. Zoom. Thank God. And I put a sticky note over Finn's head of, like, a very mean, like, jacked person. And I wrote like, like poo poo kaka on it. Like something stupid. So like, every time that's, like, good.

[Hannah]

Because that's half of the, like, sad. Like, there's a lot of. I don't know. I know. Facing People in court, in the courtrooms is it was. Especially your abuser.

[Talia]

Well, when the zoom turned on and I saw his face, he was out for blood. Like, I was shocked looking at his face, I was like, oh, wow. And so I just put the sticky note over it. I was like, holy shit. I had a calendar that had red on days that he freaked out. Yellow. Like, it was color coded by good for you.

[Mackenzie]

That's keeping track of it. And those records will hold up in court.

[Talia]

Yeah. So court starts, and the way that it worked. And this is the way that it worked. They said I could tell the whole whatever the story was without any of my evidence. And then he could rebuttal with his evidence, and then I could rebuttal with his evidence only to what evidence he used.

[Hannah]

Wait, so why?

[Mackenzie]

Because he can do. He needs to be able to defend himself and say nuh. And here's why. And then she can say, why can't.

[Hannah]

Her evidence cam come forward at the beginning?

[Mackenzie]

Because she has the burden.

[Talia]

Oh, yeah. So that was. I learned a lot about court that day and that I hate it. So I said the story. I was crying. I was very emotional. And then he hyper focused on a fight in July. And I was like, he's been coming to my house almost every night for the last month, and I don't care about anything that's happened before this. I just want him gone. He focused on that fight from July. So then we could only talk about that fight from July. He played his cards so well. And in court, he goes. So I was like, okay, well, July's the refrigerator incident thing. And I said that. And he goes, your honor, who hasn't slammed our refrigerator door when they were angry?

[Mackenzie]

He gonna manipulate every damn body.

[Talia]

Oh, the judge hated. She hated him. And she kept telling him to be quiet. And I. Everything he said, I was able to rebuttal it. He got to the Olivia part. I had a whole exhibit in my court of text messages between me and her. So they, like, axed that out of court, basically. And then he told the judge that ever since I left his life, he's no longer dizzy. And that's when I realized he was. It was fake. The whole. All of it. The whole dizzy was fake.

[Hannah]

Oh, my God.

[Talia]

The head injury was real, but the dizzy was fake.

[Hannah]

Anytime that he needed you to not leave or make him the baby again.

[Talia]

And I look back on, like, my cousin Dylan, when I asked Dylan about it, and Dylan was like, oh, yeah, he gets like this sometimes. Well, when Dylan would try to stop being Friends with him. Finn would get dizzy. I was like, oh, my God. Like, you just rat of a person. Like, I. It was just. Yeah. So court ended up being pretty nasty. I. At the end was. I was begging for a tpo. I was like, please give it to me. At the end, I did not get granted a tpo. Yeah. What? I, I, I don't know why. I think it. Basically because they kept asking me. They're like, did he actually lay hands on you? And I was like, no, but listen to the refrigerator.

[Hannah]

Like, oh, my God.

[Talia]

So this My heart. Yeah. So I did not get the tpo. And. But at the end of court, she was like, you know, like, Mr. His last name. She. She was like, you are obsessed with your own voice. You're obsessed with being right.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Talia]

Leave this young woman alone. She was like, no, none of your weird little notes. Like, just ripped him a new one.

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Talia]

And. And then she told me. She was like, if he ever contacts you again, just find me again. Basically file another thing. And that was that. And then I.

[Hannah]

He's never contacted you?

[Talia]

Never contacted me again. Yeah, that was that. I remember closing the laptop, and me and Nick looked at each other because I was in his restaurant, and I just was like, you know, and then we went to a hot spring. I was like, I. Okay.

[Hannah]

Like, well, did you think it was going to hold?

[Talia]

I. Like, the tpo.

[Hannah]

Well, the non tpo. Did you think he was going to listen to the judge?

[Talia]

I. I went back to what my therapist said about it being narcissism, being such an ego thing. I think I damaged his ego. He was getting away with everything. And then the cops went to his house. I got law enforcement involved. And then all of a sudden, he's embarrassed, you know? Yeah. I have seen him one time. So we were going through a roundabout. It was like a freaking movie, you guys. And we're going like that around the roundabout. And I saw him, and I know he was, like, pretending not to look at me, and I was, like, trying to get out of that roundabout as fast as I could, but that was. I never saw him again. And then I saw it popped up on, like, my. For you page, a video of him at his meet in December. And he was with Izzy at that meet.

[Hannah]

Oh, my God.

[Talia]

Yeah. So I. That's.

[Hannah]

Wait, December of what year? Like, how long?

[Talia]

23.

[Hannah]

Okay. So it's been a little bit, but still not that long.

[Talia]

Yeah. So I never got to talk to her. I used to check periodically. She had me blocked still. I don't Check anymore. But I just, I think she's as innocent as I was in all of it. And just showing that she went to the meet with him and you know, on the east coast, I was like, he was doing the same thing to her. He was asking her to go. He probably had a promise for her that. And then when he would fight with me and tell me that he didn't want me to go, then he'd ask her to go.

[Hannah]

And I was like, how does he have the time?

[Talia]

I have no idea. It's cuz he makes his own schedule.

[Hannah]

Yeah, I guess. I mean, I just feel like he was constantly patrolling you. But I guess he could.

[Talia]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

I'm shocked. He went through so much because I.

[Talia]

Said no to him one time, you know, when I was like, go home, we don't want you here. Then he was. It was a plot, A whole plot, a whole plot. And he, he was even getting in relationships and then ruining those to come back to you. He was obsessed. And so while he's telling me that we're best friends and we keep finding each other, I'm like, no, no, no, you keep finding me. You know?

[Mackenzie]

Well, so the judge said, don't talk to her again. He said, I bet.

[Talia]

Yeah. He never.

[Mackenzie]

And that was it.

[Talia]

That was it.

[Hannah]

And you never still live nearby, so.

[Talia]

That kind of comes with like, yeah, sorry.

[Mackenzie]

He lives and he knows where you live and both y'all know that you change locks. You said, are you scared of him, like coming around?

[Talia]

I don't know. I. I think I hurt his ego so bad that in a sense, like for the first couple months I was like scared he was going to come back and be violent. But now I'm like, I think he's. He's probably onto the next at this point, you know?

[Hannah]

Yeah. And he's never going to change.

[Talia]

No, absolutely. There's. No one's going to heal him. No one's.

[Hannah]

Even if he, I guess, stops doing these steroids, like there's still something to the narcissism and abuse that was. It's like the fact that. Because when he first met you and that initial rejection happened was before steroids.

[Talia]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

And the whole thing about him not laying a hand on you and that.

[Mackenzie]

Being the reason that it's okay that like.

[Hannah]

Because how many times does it happen where it's the longest. Grooming into abuse, but because it's not physical, people don't know that's what's happening. Or people don't believe you.

[Mackenzie]

Not only that, but it takes you To a place where you're like, I don't know what else to do. So I'm just going to end it all, I guess.

[Talia]

And that's.

[Mackenzie]

That's. That's. So that should be. They should take that into account for something.

[Talia]

Yeah. I wish that was taken more seriously, because I would get to points. And this is so dark. I would get to points where I was like. I almost, like, looking back on my abusive relationship, that was physical. I was like, I could live that again. Compared to this. Like, that's so dark to even say. But I'm like, awful.

[Mackenzie]

No, but it makes sense. That's a real feeling.

[Talia]

Yeah. Because with Finn, he made me question, like. Like I said when he made me question if I had gone into his gym, which I never had. I never had.

[Mackenzie]

And you were like. But that just goes to show you that you really do. When people gaslight you enough, you really do start to believe their lies. And you're like, maybe I am crazy, but I'm looking at Hannah's face, and she just looks so sad. Can we. Can we know about a happy ending?

[Talia]

Yes.

[Hannah]

Is there a happy ending?

[Talia]

Hannah just flew out of her chair.

[Hannah]

Yeah. Where are you now?

[Talia]

How are you thriving? I'm absolutely thriving. Yeah. So Nick, after court, he encouraged me to talk to my sister again. So I ended up reaching out to her. I sent her a long text. She called me. She was, like, crying, and she was like, I knew it. I knew he was doing something to you. And she was too scared to say something to me. Cause she was scared to push me away. And then she told me, too. She was like, when it's your little sister who's, you know, wanting to commit suicide, she's like, I didn't know what to do. Like, my sister's my person. Like, my sister's like my soulmate, you know? And she told me that at that time that me and her were fighting a lot. She was on. She had just started antidepressants, and she didn't tell me. So she was retreating to her room. And, you know, I'm like, we just didn't communicate. So we had this whole conversation that we needed to have. And we're great. Like, we're the best we've ever been, I think. And Nick, also, when I was filing the tpo, he was like, you need to tell your mom and dad. And I was like, no. Like, I'm not telling my mom and dad. And he was like, okay, then I'm gonna facilitate it. And he did. He. He called my mom and dad to my house and had them sit down. And I was sitting on the couch and he told them everything.

[Hannah]

Did you. How'd you feel about that?

[Talia]

I was glad. It felt very freeing that I was out there. And my parents said the same thing. They were, like, crying. And my dad, my poor dad, his head was hanging and he, like, they were like. We knew something was wrong. Like, with, like, not with you, but they were like. We felt like somebody had taken over you, you know? And so there was like, a lot of my dad, even. I told him about the podcast, and he's like, do you want me to sit with you while you do it? Like, he's so, like, supportive and cute. He's so cute. Like, he's the sweetest. My relationship with my dad's the best it's ever been. And with my mom, it's as good as it's ever gonna be. And that's like, okay to me. Now, another thing my dad said to me, which stuck with me. He was like, ever since you were a kid, you would collect the broken people and you would break yourself. And that stuck with me. So I, like, I always remember that. But. So Nick and I are together. I thought maybe because I was like, he's.

[Hannah]

He likes you. He opened his restaurant.

[Talia]

I had told him. I was like, I. This is my plan for being single. Tom, 30. And he was like, okay. And then he's like, sure. And then he met my dog, and my dog loved. She, like, rolled on her back and loved him. And I was like, okay, traitor. Like, you're supposed to hate men. And she loved him so much that I, like, actually agreed to go on a date with him. I was like, okay. And that is his dog now. He has her food on his nose. Oh, the dogs always know he has her tattooed on him. He is a full blown dad. Like, when we take her on walks, he puts her little jacket. She has, like, a little puffer jacket.

[Hannah]

If y'all missed it. This is a corgi we're talking about, just so you can imagine it.

[Talia]

He is my very best friend in the whole world. And right before the podcast, I was running late because we were picking out engagement rings.

[Mackenzie]

So he hasn't asked you to marry him yet or. Not yet. Okay.

[Hannah]

But you guys are having healthy conversations prior to doing it?

[Talia]

Yeah. So we're in premarital counseling right now. And it was his. It was actually his idea because he was like, let's be proactive instead of reactive, you know? And so we see my same therapist that I've been going steady with now for, like, two years.

[Mackenzie]

Yes. Okay. I'm into it.

[Talia]

Yeah. She, like, grabbed, like, graduated us from. Because we were going every other week, and then she was like, you guys can kind of come once. You guys don't need to be here that often, like, if you want to come once a month. And we were like. We were like. We just like you. Yeah.

[Hannah]

Well, isn't that funny how it's, like, when you finally get that healthy relationship.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

Something like couples therapy is actually really.

[Talia]

Oh, yeah.

[Hannah]

Because you're excited to grow together.

[Talia]

I, like, love it. So tomorrow, we're signing a lease on a new house. Yay.

[Hannah]

Wait, so tonight you're literally in the apartment, the house that everything went down in, and tomorrow you're getting the fuck out?

[Talia]

Yeah. So. Wow.

[Hannah]

This is such closure. Thank you for having us be part of this.

[Talia]

Thank you guys for having me.

[Hannah]

I want to ask a question, because a lot of people go through abusive relationships and then have to get back out there. Is there anything that you can say about your relationship that you would want to tell somebody that's starting a relationship after going through what you've gone through?

[Mackenzie]

That's a great. That's. Yeah, that's great.

[Talia]

I. How do I say this? I think everybody needs to take time to get them to know themselves. Like, when I said I was doing those. Listening to podcasts and meditating and journaling, and I took the time to get to know who I was, even though I was still dealing with stuff within, I. I started detaching from him. And then I started figuring out, like, this is what I. Like, this is what I don't like. Because when he was in my life, I didn't know who I was, so he could. He hijacked my brain. Like, he told me, you are this. And I was like, you're right. So one of the things now and, like, what's so awesome with Nick is he gives me such a space to be myself, and I've never had that space before. Like, I. I'm not embarrassed of anything about my past. He knows absolutely everything. And I'm so confident in who I am now, but I know that we're always, like, evolving and stuff. So I really. I'm like, just get to know yourself. When I started hanging out with him, I felt so calm, and with Finn, I was always, like, jitters. Like, what I thought was butterflies was anxiety and blah, blah, blah.

[Hannah]

Yep.

[Mackenzie]

I thought it was butterflies.

[Talia]

It was anxiety.

[Hannah]

I've heard that before. The difference between, like, excitement and anxiety is hard to distinguish. And I think part of it is, like, the calmness versus the jitters. Body can be the thing that determines it for you, which is hard to figure out how to listen to that.

[Talia]

When me and Nick started hanging out a lot, like, I. I swear to God, I just felt calm. Just so calm always. And he. He's so patient with me. He's so kind. Like I said, he sat through court with me, and after everything happened, after my court date, he went and he took his LSAT to become a lawyer. Yeah.

[Hannah]

Kidding me.

[Talia]

He passed it. Yeah, he passed it. So. Yeah. And then, yeah, I graduated college, and then I went full time military. And I have, in my entire state, only three other people have my job, so we're thriving. Congratulations. But it just made me realize, if you're lying to people, then you're screwed. If you're lying, like, oh, no, we're happy. You're screwed. You're not. If you're. If you ever think once, like, am I being abused? You are. Like, sleep deprivation, all that. That's so abuse. And I know it now, but it's so abusive. But I look back on Finn and I'm like, I think he used me as a mirror to battle himself. I think he saw me and I was an open vessel. Like I said, I didn't have a strong headspace, and he just used me as a mirror to absolutely tear me down and fight with himself. At the same time, I think I was using him as a mirror because my inner child was so. Wasn't healed that I was like, if I can fix your inner child, then it'll, you know, like, that's. That's just how I view it now. Like, I've had so many things happen since that I try to find reason to it sometimes, but sometimes I'm like, that guy was just batshit crazy. Yeah.

[Hannah]

Sometimes the reason is just bad.

[Mackenzie]

Thank you for sharing your story with us. I can't believe this freaking guy. He was in it for the long game for sure. Like, for realsies.

[Talia]

Yeah, he made the game, wrote the rules. I feel like I beat him, though, you know?

[Mackenzie]

Oh, yeah, you did. You freaking guys. Okay. Like, we got. That's a lot to unpack. I'm so. I'm so curious to hear Hannah's dogfish debrief, which I always love.

[Hannah]

But two.

[Talia]

Well, my.

[Mackenzie]

My very first thought. If you don't mind, I would like to share. Okay.

[Hannah]

Take the floor, love.

[Mackenzie]

My very first thought is, oh, my God, I relate to this so much, and here's why. Because I am someone who dated the absolute worst of the worst people. Because, number one, I thought that's what I deserved. And number two, when you grow up with. And then the more you fall into this vicious circle of the wrong people, the more you think, like, this is comfort. Like, even though it's chaos, it's familiar. And so. But now I'm in a place where I'm like, oh, self love. And now I've been able to deal with my trauma.

[Hannah]

Yes.

[Mackenzie]

And so one of my thoughts is like, well, stop going back. Like, stop doing. Like, stop going back to him. But you. You can't help it. Like, you. This Talia is. Is not to blame at all. It is never the victim's fault, ever and ever, ever. And you just. It's. Yeah. No, it would be so great. It's just like when someone calls me fat and they're like, you know, it'd help if you stop eating. And I'm like, oh, you think I don't know that idiot? Like, this is a trauma response. You don't know how to deal with it.

[Talia]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

You don't think it's. That's. Yeah, it is a trauma response. And trauma makes us act in ways that are not rational and not our fault. It doesn't mean you're a bad person. It doesn't mean you're stupid or anything. Trauma is a beast that we don't even understand. But I think, yeah, your point is so good. She described it as best she can, but, yeah, there are always going to be people that are like, why didn't you leave? Or, why did you go back? I don't personally think that that's the question that needs to be asked. I think we need to ask, why was the abuser abusing?

[Mackenzie]

That's like, if someone's wearing. If someone gets sexually assaulted, they're like, well, why were you wearing a short skirt? It's like, no.

[Talia]

Right.

[Mackenzie]

It's not a thing.

[Hannah]

Right. However, I don't want. If you have that question in your mind, I want to. We want to be a space where we can have that conversation, construct and respectfully. So, like, the reason you're asking that question might be that you, you know, like, it's worth examining. I'm not gonna try to pick it apart, but it's worth examining why that's the question you're asking. And does it mean that she deserved that treatment? No, of course. There's so much we can learn from all of these stories. We're not in the business of telling any of our guests, you should have done this, you should have done that. We're in the business of giving them a platform to talk about the treatment and the abuse so that ethically.

[Mackenzie]

Which means, in their words, fully.

[Talia]

Yes.

[Hannah]

And of course, we can learn from it. And she's learned from it. She's been in therapy and doing work, and we're all trying to learn from it. And I. Oh, I learned a lot from this.

[Mackenzie]

I could imagine how hard it would be to hear this story and be like, girl, seven years. What are you doing? Seven years? Like, how, Like. And it just kept going on and on. And it's like you. You do. There is no timeframe. Like, there's no book that says within this period of time, you should be healed and know what you're fully doing by that time.

[Hannah]

And if you haven't been through it, you can't understand it.

[Mackenzie]

And that's not it.

[Hannah]

It's. Honestly, if you don't understand it, I'm really happy for you. Like, it's really. It's.

[Talia]

It's.

[Hannah]

You can consider yourself lucky because he.

[Mackenzie]

Put her through the ringer and all for what?

[Hannah]

Well, I wanted to read some comments from people that have written stuff and about different things that I want to talk about because we've gotten a lot of great thoughts. One of them that has to do with this, I just like this. It was on Spotify. Someone said the amount of manipulation some of these people go through is mind blowing. This woman is such a strong and intelligent woman, and he just breaks her down bit by bit. I've always felt so weak because of the amount of abuse I've endured through so many relationships. Her story helps point out that even the strongest willed can be broken down.

[Mackenzie]

Yep. Absolutely.

[Hannah]

And that's why these stories are important.

[Mackenzie]

That kindness that she showed, like, she's a kind, compassionate person on top of being the victim of trauma in her past. And so those two together, like, they make you feel like you are responsible with. They're people pleasers, right?

[Talia]

You're.

[Mackenzie]

You feel like you're responsible for everyone's happiness. And if someone punches you in the face, that sucks. And you're very jarred, right? And you're like, oh, my God, like, that's crazy. But if someone just taps you on your shoulder, but they do it again and again and again, and it's to the point where sometimes it's a little harder, sometimes a little softer, it's not as much as one punch in the face, but over time, it's like, Stop. Like, stop doing, like, stop. Like, you know what I mean?

[Hannah]

But then if you go up to someone and say, they're tapping me on the shoulder, people are going to be like, yeah. And they.

[Mackenzie]

And like, who cares? Exactly. And so that's the problem, is that there's always that. That they just do it just enough to toe the line, but not enough to do anything wrong, quote, unquote.

[Hannah]

That makes me think about. Can we talk about how one of the ways that I think he elicited sympathy and got her to stay up all night talking to him, give in to supporting him, was his tbi, his traumatic brain injury. And I have a couple of submissions that people have sent in, people who have more experience with TBI than I do. So a lot of people thought the baby talk had to do with the tbi. Someone was like, the baby talk incident sounds like confabulation, a cognitive impairment that you can occur after a traumatic brain injury. I dated a TBI guy for six years. He would scream that I had hit him all the time. I never hit him. And the first time, he reacted as if I'd thrown him down the stairs. I didn't even touch him. We were just standing at the top of the stairs. There are whole TBI wife groups on Facebook because narcissist traits and being devoid of empathy are fairly common attributes of TBI. And TBIs are common in men, either obtaining them as teens and living with the traits for life or as a result of aging, causing lifelong relationships to fall apart. And then she just wrote, I'm warning woman about the possible shit show of TBI men. It's something so important to me that I just don't hear enough about. I could talk about tbis all dang day. Love y'all and love the show. So thank you.

[Mackenzie]

Wow, that's interesting.

[Hannah]

Fascinating. So. And then a couple of people would write in, like, I think the TBI could be part of it, if he even has one. Like, it got to the point where we were like, we don't know. Like, we're. We can't trust this guy.

[Mackenzie]

But that's the thing, though, is that you don't. Like, is he faking this? Is this real? Like, you never know. We have to assume that he does.

[Hannah]

Yeah. I mean, if the baby talk is like some kind of resorting back to. To childhood trauma, I think that's one of those cases of, it's maybe not his fault. It certainly is his responsibility. It doesn't excuse his behavior.

[Mackenzie]

Right, Exactly.

[Hannah]

But I thought that was certainly interesting. And a couple of you did, too. So we're pointing that out. If you have more information or thoughts, let us know. Also. Okay, I had another interesting deep dive rabbit hole that I went down because of the story.

[Mackenzie]

Well, I like it when you do that.

[Hannah]

Okay, I'm gonna go nerd mode. So something she said reminded me of a popular TV show that I'm watching. I will not give any spoilers, but it's the show Severance on Apple tv right now. It's coming out, like, as we speak, season two. And something that happens in Severance, not a spoiler, is that a form of punishment for characters is that they have to sit in a room and repeat a written apology over and over again until the person says they've done it right? And I was like, oh, bingo.

[Talia]

Bingo.

[Hannah]

As you would say. I was like, this guy did that too. Finn did that too. He's been watching Severance. He's been doing this. And I got to tell you, when I saw it on Severance, I knew that it was some kind of torture, because they're getting exhausted. They're like, they can't leave. They don't have control over it. I knew it was psychological torture, but I didn't really understand, like, what exactly was happening. So then when I heard this, I was like, I have to. I have to find out. Do you have any thoughts before I tell you what I've learned?

[Talia]

I. I guess I just.

[Mackenzie]

I thought that maybe it was, like, a form of, like, definitely abusive because I feel like he was just doing it to, like, annoy her. I have a big brother who's like, 16 months older than me, so, like, I. That's something my brother would do.

[Talia]

But I.

[Mackenzie]

As far as I know, he doesn't have any. Like, there's no, like, OCD or anything. But I thought it was one of those two where he was just trying to be annoying or trying to absolutely, like, like, psychologically abused her. I wasn't sure. What did you come up with?

[Hannah]

Well, that's the thing is, like, I think it. On the surface, it seems annoying, but having seen it on the show, I was like, there's more to it. Like, there's a reason they put this in here as a form of torture. So I learned about something called the illusory truth effect.

[Mackenzie]

What's that?

[Hannah]

So the illusory truth effect is a studied, proven phenomenon that repeated information is often perceived as more truthful than new information. So that is why repetition is a brainwashing technique. And basically what happens is your brain gets Even logically, rationally, you know something might not be true. You don't have the power to fight it. Like, familiarity can overpower rationality.

[Talia]

What is it called again?

[Hannah]

The illusory truth effect. I had fun.

[Mackenzie]

Illusory truth effect.

[Hannah]

And yes, I did have to look up how to pronounce illusory. So is that.

[Mackenzie]

Does that mean that, like, he. Like, if she had to apologize for it, that mean that she. That means that she had to say she did it over and over again. Yeah.

[Hannah]

Remember, he was like, no, you didn't say it. Right. Like, say it again, say it again. And she had to say it again.

[Talia]

Right.

[Mackenzie]

But that's his way of making her say what she did wrong so that she starts to believe that she actually did wrong.

[Talia]

Maybe.

[Hannah]

Well, think about it. If you say, like, I'm so sorry that I was mean to you, and I.

[Mackenzie]

Then you say it again for two hours straight.

[Hannah]

It's a form of gaslighting, especially if you're already doubting yourself. Like, she already had super low self. Estee Team so all. All it takes is for somebody to convince her and be pushy.

[Mackenzie]

And this is how we get false confessions. Police get false confessions.

[Hannah]

Whoa. Oh, my God, Mackenzie.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, true.

[Hannah]

And then his pushiness, how over the years, he kept saying, like, I'm so good for you. Like, I'm the savior for you. Like, you're. We're best together. Like, his whole us against the world thing. Like, if you say that over and over and over again and she's going through mental health stuff and self, like, self esteem stuff, after a while, she might be like, maybe he's right. Anyway, I thought that was fascinating.

[Mackenzie]

That's interesting. I like that. I'm. I want to look into that more. That's really interesting.

[Hannah]

So, yeah, repetition is a brainwashing technique, y'all. Fun fact. Okay, we also need to talk about. I. We both saw this on Instagram. Mental health in the military.

[Talia]

Oh, yeah.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

Basically, we got some comments of people being like, hey, saying that you're not allowed to have mental health issues in the military is a dangerous thing to say because it's not totally true. And I think I'm glad that she shared her story because obviously a lot of people feel that way.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

And so I looked into it, I'm sure. I mean, you have people that, you know that are military, so do you want to say anything before I talk about it?

[Mackenzie]

I do want to say that I do have loved ones that have experienced PTSD from the military, but they. There is a Stigma. And I know this to be true for a fact. There is a stigma in the military of mental health issues. If you're in the military and you have mental health issues, it can be held against you.

[Hannah]

It can hurt your job. Yeah.

[Mackenzie]

Just like in law enforcement. Law enforcement, too, Yeah.

[Hannah]

I mean, a lot of people wrote in and they were like, that's not true. The Department of Defense has taken measurable steps to increase mental health awareness, promotion programs and intervention trainings. And it's.

[Mackenzie]

Yes, I. That is, they are making an effort to put those programs. But that doesn't mean that on the front lines. It's not. People are not getting criticized for, you know, it doesn't mean that it's not happening on the front lines. Like, they're saying, yeah, we shouldn't do this, but it's still happening. Like, do you know what I mean? It really is. And I know this to be a fact that it is still happening.

[Hannah]

Well, the truth is, when I started Googling as if I was going through something, like, I'm feeling suicidal or I have depression, will I lose my military job? I didn't find very much. I found, like, one Air Force kind of article from 2017 about seeking help does not end military career.

[Mackenzie]

But of course they're going to say that. They're going to say, yeah, we fuck mental health. Like, we're the military. They're not going to say that.

[Hannah]

But I didn't also find a lot of pathways of, like, here's what you should do, you know, so tell us more people if you're more involved in it than us, because we don't want to perpetuate a lie. But also, if that's what a lot of people believe, then that's a problem.

[Mackenzie]

I've just seen what's happened to a few people. It's just firsthand. I've seen it. But thank you, Talia, for your service to our country. And I just. I'm so sorry that you went through this. And I'm glad that. I'm glad that the. That it's over. I'm glad there's a happy ending. And also, when we finished recording, we got to meet the new guy. Well, he's not new, but, like, we got to meet him and the babies, and so it was really cool. So thank you for sharing. And we want you guys to feel comfortable sharing your story, too. Please email us investigate@the datingdetectives podcast.com we would love to hear your story or be an ear for you or an.

[Hannah]

Outlet for you in Some ways I almost. We're not the same. But the way that she talked about feeling comfortable talking to Nick because he was a little separate from the situation, that's how I feel about, you know, when you get a therapist and stuff like that. Like, if sending us an email is going to be relieving to you, and many people have said that it is. Like, I would love to be that void for you. Even if it doesn't end up being a story that becomes an episode or anything, like, it helps to just, like, process. So email us, y'all. I feel like there's so much more here. I did love her like you said, and I think, yeah, as we talked about at the top, she. She didn't deserve any of it, and she's a badass. And I love that she's happy and I want to be her friend and go to her.

[Mackenzie]

Well, we can. We can continue the conversation on social media or on our patreon. It's only $5 a month to join the patreon. You get two bonus episodes. We can talk about more stuff like this and you'll get more updates, etc. Etc. And the. We'll put the link to the Patreon in the show notes.

[Hannah]

Tell us all your thoughts, comment, review, five stars, all the socials. And we just love you guys. We really do. Thank you so much.

[Mackenzie]

Thank you so much. Okay, we love you guys. And peace.