The Man Behind the Mask

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Dating Detectives

Episode Title: The Man Behind the Mask
Date: May 25, 2026
Hosts: Mackenzie Fultz (Private Investigator), Hanna Anderson (Comedian)
Guest: Sarah (Therapist, pseudonym)
Theme:
This episode centers on a true story told by “Sarah,” a therapist who specializes in body image and relationships, about her long-term relationship with “Jake”—a man whose hidden double life revealed an intense porn addiction, serial infidelity, and unsettling family dynamics. The hosts and guest explore red flags, the psychology of deception, and the lasting impact of betrayal, especially in the context of addiction.

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Main Topics & Structure

1. Introduction & Episode Overview

[03:07] Mackenzie:

• Announces guest, Sarah, whose story is described as "bonkers", involving addiction but not the type previously discussed on the show.
• Highlights that Sarah is also a podcast listener and a therapist, offering a unique perspective.
• Notable Quote:

  “The way she talks about everything she went through... there are so many little wisdom nuggets.” – Mackenzie [03:07]

---

2. Sarah’s Background and Relationship Beginnings

[04:09–11:02] Sarah:

• Grew up in a conservative, patriarchal religious environment with strong gender role indoctrination.
• Meets Jake in college (CSU); he is described as “the boy next door,” charming, supportive, but directionless and emotionally surface-level.
• Noted early on that Jake “never had an opinion” and lacked direction, but Sarah attributes this to age and upbringing.
• She becomes the driving force in the relationship, appreciating his passivity after a childhood surrounded by aggressive male-centric roles.

Notable Quote:

“He was really, honestly, like a little bit more quiet...so I like that he would kind of be my support system.” – Sarah [06:45]

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3. Relationship Deepens: Moving In & Home Purchase

[12:45–18:16]

• After years together, Sarah and Jake move in, make future plans, and eventually buy a home.
• Details the challenges of house-buying logistics, her investment, and why only his name is initially on the loan.
• She is the main financial supporter and the initiator for major life steps.

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4. The Discovery: The Affair Revealed

[21:37–28:49]

• On Jake’s birthday, Sarah accidentally discovers hidden Facebook messages from “John Doe” who claims Jake is cheating.
• She’s stunned; at first suspects a prank.
• Jake reacts guiltily, escalating her suspicion.
• John Doe, whose profile is solely dedicated to outing Jake, tells Sarah that Jake has been cheating for nearly the entire relationship, including with John’s wife.
• John Doe provides explicit proof (screenshots of sexual messages).

Notable Quote:

“All of the color drains out of his face, and he sprints over, grabs my phone... immediately I was like, well, you just outed yourself.” – Sarah [23:37]
“He obviously has a weird relationship with the truth.” – Sarah [44:00]

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5. Jake’s Response: Shifting from Cheating to Addiction

[29:10–36:18]

• Confronted, Jake tearfully claims to have a porn addiction, giving details about raw physical consequences, lack of employment, and extreme daily porn consumption (8–9 hours/day).
• He claims his parents urged secrecy and blamed this for never having dated before.
• Sarah is both empathetic (as a therapist) and devastated (as a partner).
• Jake minimizes his responsibility, and Sarah is forced to manage his threats of self-harm after she asks him to leave.

Notable Quotes:

“Now that you know, I’m ready to marry you.” – Jake [33:53]
“I feel trapped with you.” – Sarah [36:18]

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6. Fallout: Legal & Emotional Navigation

[37:01–43:14]

• Sarah seeks legal advice to protect her interest in the house.
• She negotiates to have her name added to the deed before considering reconciliation.
• Jake confesses to cheating with at least four married women, describing transactional encounters mostly limited to oral sex—but Sarah is skeptical of these minimized details.
• They try therapy; Jake claims he’s “cured” after one session and resists meaningful self-work.
• Sarah realizes she’s grieving the loss of an imagined partner, not the real Jake.

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7. Surreal Family Dynamics: The Enmeshed Mother

[51:58–54:28]

• “Linda,” Jake’s mother, displays bizarrely intrusive and boundaryless behavior—showing up unannounced, using pet names, sleeping in their bed, and fixating on Sarah’s friend group.
• Hosts and Sarah discuss the possible psychological impact of this “enmeshment.”

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8. The Breaking Point: Final Discoveries

[65:27–67:51]

• While retrieving belongings from the house post-breakup, Sarah finds Jake’s memory book, containing a mix of innocent relationship photos and explicit Polaroids of sex workers who closely resemble his mother and brother.
• This shattering discovery deepens the betrayal and indicates a profound unresolved Oedipal complex.
• Legal negotiations (mediator, lawyer) to divide property and money.

Notable Reaction:

“When I saw it, I literally thought I found pornography from his mother.” – Sarah [65:49]
“I was like, you have got to be kidding me.” – Sarah [65:49]

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9. Emotional Aftermath & Lessons Learned

[72:31–79:02]

• Sarah describes feelings of shame, self-doubt, and regret over missed red flags—as both a partner and a professional therapist.
• Emphasizes (and hosts reinforce) that anyone—even therapists—can be manipulated, especially by someone adept at hiding secrets.
• Key insight: Addiction and infidelity were not because Sarah wasn’t “enough” or failed to snoop—Jake’s actions were about his own unresolved issues.
• Explains that real change requires action, not just words or promises; warns against “falling in love with potential.”
• Discusses the importance of neutral, affirming support from friends (not judgment or forced advice).

Notable Quote:

“You can have the tools, you can be the therapist... and you can still have someone cheat on you, deceive you, lie to you.” – Sarah [38:10]

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10. On Porn Addiction, Therapy, and Relationships

[77:53–84:15, 87:44–89:34]

• Sarah provides a therapist’s perspective on porn addiction:
  • Hallmarks include poor emotional communication, inability to handle confrontation, refusal to take accountability, and patterns rooted in early exposure.
  • Differentiates between regular porn use and addiction (the latter destroys life functioning and relationships).
  • In some cases, porn addiction is closely linked to cheating/affairs, often as a means of seeking power, validation, or escapism.
• Expresses the wish for better regulation to prevent early exposure to porn, given its developmental impact on young minds.

---

11. Moving On: Growth & Empowerment

[89:45–90:38]

• After leaving Jake, Sarah experiences significant personal growth—her business thrives, she buys her own house, enjoys dating and friendship, and feels validated in her decision.
• Encourages listeners to trust themselves, seek support, and understand that leaving—even after years invested—can open doors rather than close them.

Notable Quotes:

“I have a cute house now I design 100% to myself. I have a booming business... And I never once regret my decision to leave.” – Sarah [86:37, 91:21]

---

Key Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “He obviously has a weird relationship with the truth.” – Sarah [44:00]
• “You can be the therapist... and still have someone cheat on you.” – Sarah [38:10]
• “When I saw it, I literally thought I found pornography from his mother.” – Sarah [65:49]
• “People have to earn chances with you.” – Sarah [100:41]
• “Stop falling in love with potential.” – Sarah [85:44]
• “When you react, your friend has to process your reaction, too.” – Mackenzie [95:02]

---

Significant Timestamps

• [03:07] – Mackenzie introduces the uniqueness of Sarah’s perspective and story.
• [23:37] – The moment Sarah discovers the affair and Jake’s immediate reaction.
• [29:10] – Jake confesses to porn addiction; Sarah discusses impact on intimacy.
• [36:19] – Sarah feels “trapped” after intertwining finances despite betrayal.
• [44:00] – Sarah notes Jake’s “weird relationship with the truth.”
• [65:49] – Discovery of the mother-lookalike sex worker photos ("memory book" reveal).

---

Best Practices for Supporting Friends

• Avoid blame or making assumptions about what someone “should” have noticed (Sarah’s friend never swayed her, just supported autonomy [72:47]).
• Don’t project or catastrophize; let your friend process and decide.
• Examples of supportive language: “I trust your opinion,” “You deserve the best,” “Whatever you decide, I support you.”

---

Concluding Reflections

• Anyone, regardless of background or training, can be deceived by a partner who is “good at hiding things.”
• True healing comes from honoring your own boundaries, seeking support, focusing on the present (not partner “potential”), and letting go of shame.
• Recovery from these experiences can foster new freedom, self-respect, and personal growth.

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To Share Your Story

• Listeners are encouraged to contact the show to share similar experiences for the benefit and empowerment of the community.

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Hosts’ Closing Theme:

• Trust your “femme-tuition.”
• Growth is hard but ultimately rewarding; shame and self-isolation are common after betrayal, but everyone deserves support and self-compassion.

---

For Support:

• If you or someone you know is in an abusive relationship, contact the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233.

Transcript

[Hannah]

The following program contains names, places and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following program is provided for entertainment purposes only, and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances. If you or a loved one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic violence hotline at 1-800-799-7233 for support.

[Molly]

Happy dating Detectives.

[Sarah]

Monday.

[Hannah]

Hello.

[Molly]

I want to start with a question. Who's coming to the live shows? We're going on, like, a mini tour.

[Sarah]

A mini tour.

[Mackenzie]

Okay. Comment. If you are going to be at CrimeCon in, like, a week, that's in Vegas. We're not doing a show, but that still counts because we'll be there. And then in the Chicago show in July or Tampa in August or Orlando in August. And if you want to go but you don't have tickets yet, they're all in the show notes. So just go look and you can get a ticket and come see us.

[Molly]

Yeah, I'll be on a show called Live Laugh Larceny. That's going to be really fun during.

[Mackenzie]

That's at Crimecon.

[Molly]

Yeah, that's going to be at Crimecon. So that's going to be super fun. We're going to be there the whole weekend at the Little Caesar, or Caesar Caesars.

[Mackenzie]

I call it a Little Caesar's palette.

[Molly]

The Little Caesar's palace is not so little. But anyways, we're gonna be there. It's going to be so much fun. Please come see us and say hi, come find our booth and literally hang out with us all weekend if you want. We would just love it. And there's going to be a lot of great events. I love going to Crime Con last year in Denver, and it was amazing. So you guys are gonna love it. As always, I want to say thank you to you guys for listening and for being here supporting the show. We are so grateful for you. So I just wanted to remind you that you are loved and we value you and your. Your presence in our community. So thank you.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah. And especially if you support us on Patreon. I mean, there's so many different ways to support us. So if you're not on Patreon, it's okay, but it is $5 a month. It really makes a big difference. And you get bonus episodes. We chat with you, you get early access to live show tickets, merch drops, stuff like that. And then if you want, you get all of that and ad free listening if you join the $9 a month tier.

[Molly]

Girlfriend experience.

[Mackenzie]

Ad free listening experience. So thank you. It makes a big difference.

[Molly]

And by live show, we mean Chicago. July 16th, we're gonna be in Chicago, so come see us. And I know we have a huge audience in that area. And then in August, August 5th and 6th, we will have Orlando and Tampa shows. And that's my stomping ground. So that's gonna be so fun.

[Sarah]

I'm so excited.

[Mackenzie]

One of my favorite parts about today's episode and today's guest is hearing about her relationship with our show because she has a story. Oh, she has a story. But she also listens to the podcast and is a therapist, and which is

[Molly]

so interesting to get a therapist point of view on their own personal dogfish story.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, my God. The way she talks about everything she went through is going to. You're. There are so many little wisdom nuggets. So I was so happy to talk to her. Her name is Sarah. And this is an insane story, and it is about an addiction of sorts, but I don't believe it's one that we've talked about. And I don't think there's really much else we need to warn you about. It's just. Oh, it's bonkers. It's bonkers.

[Molly]

It's pretty crazy. And one thing that was my favorite that she says during this episode is he has a weird relationship with the truth. And I thought it was so funny because I was like, that is so, so accur on all of our dogfish. So anyways, let's introduce you to her. I'd love for you to meet her. Her name is Sarah. And yeah, let's let her tell her story. So we have Sarah here with us. And thank you for being here, Sarah.

[Sarah]

Absolutely. I'm so happy to be here.

[Molly]

Will you please take us away? You have the floor.

[Sarah]

Yes. So my name's Sarah, and first thing I just want to say is, is that I'm a therapist and I specialize in body image issues, relationships, and disordered eating.

[Molly]

I'm gonna write down.

[Sarah]

I'm gonna write down your do. Please do. It's a big passion of mine because I feel like, especially nowadays, it's really hard to have a healthy or neutral or even flexible body image. So it's something I'm super passionate about. But especially after going through some of my own relationship issues or things like that, I have found that surprise. When people struggle with their body image, they tend to end up in some negative relationships. Yeah. And they put up with a lot of things that I would say if you have some good healthy self esteem or a good sense of self, that maybe you would have a little bit of a harsher boundary for. Now, that being said, we all can get in relationships where we get dogfished or things like that. But it is interesting to see that correlation. So I'll kind of start off with just a little bit of a backstory about everything. I grew up really conservatively religious, and the church is very traditional in gender roles. The area I grew up in was very conservative, very patriarchal. Like very much focused on. Men are working, women are not. I remember my mom had a job for fun growing up and the religious leader chastised her because he said that it wasn't appropriate for a woman to have a career unless their family needed it. And so it's just.

[Molly]

That's crazy.

[Sarah]

Yeah. So there's just a lot of opinions and that was kind of normal. Like every time we would go to. We had young women's is what it was called. But it's where you get together every week and basically just very get indoctrinated with this idea of what women's roles are. They would teach you how to cook, how to clean, how to make certain foods, and then they would always give you a lesson about if men broke the law of chastity was your fault because you were showing off your body.

[Molly]

What?

[Sarah]

Yeah. And there was one time in young women's where they brought in cupcakes and then they smashed it in front of all of us and said, this is how men view you. If you've had sex before marriage, no one's gonna wanna bite your cupcake. So just kind of an interesting upbringing. But it's something that I think kind of carried me into Jake. Okay. I went to school at Colorado State University. He was not religious. He didn't even know what my religion was at the time. No idea what it even came from. Like, no affiliation. So my thought process was Cha Ching. It doesn't have any of the weird church ties that we worry a lot about.

[Mackenzie]

Right.

[Sarah]

Just honestly, the best way to describe him is boy next door. Everyone loved him. So what made me fall for him? I was actually in a sorority and he was in a fraternity, which is so silly. But it was. We would all hang out at the same time. So we met there. He was really sweet, honestly, like a little bit more quiet, which is okay, because to be honest with you, I feel like I can kind of be A little bit more outgoing and out there. So I like that he would kind of be my support system. Yeah, the balance in the background. But he was a senior when I was a junior and he didn't live there. I was planning on staying around afterwards, so I felt like he was gonna go back home and I kind of never see him again. Like I just met him the last year of his last year of college and I was gonna stick around, so. So we just dated and everyone loved him, thought he was great. Really like a good looking dude too. And so the closer and closer we got to him leaving, he was pushing for something more serious, which he had never had a girlfriend before, which I was always surprised about. And there are gonna be a couple things I highlighted that I'm going to say I'm surprised about throughout this and then it'll come back later as things that especially some of the people in the audience might be like, wait a second that, you know, I have my notebook out. So. Never had a partner before, but was really charming and seemed to be good with women. But he wasn't like great with women. He was good with women, women liked him, but he wasn't so charming that people were like, oh, I'm so infatuated with Jake, you know, So I was kinda like, that's perfect.

[Hannah]

Yeah, it's kind of cute, right?

[Sarah]

Like a little bit awkward, but you know, charming in a way. Right. So one of the big things that he struggled with a lot was talking about his emotions, which what 21 year old guy is amazing at talking about emotions? Yeah, right. And then when you're raised in a church community that's very much like men don't have feelings and women are the ones that have feelings. Then you get really habituated to the, this is how men are. So he was charming, kind of very surface level. He never had an opinion, which I thought was weird. Now I will share. I do think that something I struggle with is that I feel right a

[Hannah]

lot of the time you're like, I

[Sarah]

did have an opinion.

[Hannah]

So sometimes we didn't notice that he

[Sarah]

didn't have an opinion.

[Hannah]

And I say that as someone who

[Sarah]

maybe is similar to you at times where also it was like kind of shocking he didn't have opinions, like controversial political things or religious things, just nothing. And if you asked him blank and I, it was almost like he'd never thought about it before, which I thought was kind of weird because the older that we got I was like, what? But anyways, so those are some of the things that End up coming back later. The biggest thing is he was really directionless. So he went to school, got a business admin degree. But every time I would ask him because I had a lot of plans for my future, I had a lot of goals, I had a lot of things I wanted to do. And every time I would ask him, what do you want to do with that and the future? He'd just say, well, I like to golf. And I remember thinking to myself, okay, 21. Who, who are the people that right out of college just know exactly what they want to do? I know I'm intense in that way because I had a hard time finding a lot of people who are also like minded like that. So it's hard.

[Hannah]

You're giving him the benefit of the doubt.

[Sarah]

Totally, totally. But he's my biggest cheerleader. We had almost every hobby in common. We would snowboard together, mountain bike together. I really liked that. Once again, he didn't really have a lot of opinions. I didn't like that part. But what I liked is, is that that sounded bad. But what I liked is that we always did kind of like he would get really involved in the shows I liked. He would always kind of like follow the things I wanted to do.

[Hannah]

Okay, so you can wear the pants.

[Sarah]

Yeah, I could kind of like drive the ship a little bit because something that gave me the ick so bad is that where I grew up, every woman I met with and interacted with, they call it going to school to get your Mrs. To get your misses

[Hannah]

Right ring by spring.

[Sarah]

Huh. And so most women would go to college, drop out after the first semester. Most women I knew never got a real job. Most women I knew were pregnant by the time they're 20 on purpose. And so it was really hard for me to think about having a man who insisted on me being home, like not having a job, doing things like that. So then when I had this guy who is like, I'll follow you wherever, I'll do whatever, you're the, you're the person, we're going to do this. I felt so excited to have. And he was like a guy's guy too, in the sense of. So I knew my dad would like him long term, but he knew how to fix things. He worked on cars. Like he felt very protective in a lot of ways. And so I felt like he was really excited about this strong, independent woman, but also giving me a lot of like protection and care that I was kind of longing for. So after he graduated, he moved home for a couple months and Then said he came back and moved back for me. So he said he moved back for me, didn't have a job. He was like, you're my forever person. I'm moving back here for you. And I was so flattered because, honestly, we didn't even have a label on our relationship for a long time. And so the fact that he was like, I'm going to live in a friend's basement and just apply to every job so that I can be close to you was, like, crazy to me. Right? So years passed by. We had a really good friend that was one of his best friends that ended up becoming my best friend. So we all ended up living together and sharing a house, and we'd all go snowboarding, hang out together, do all this stuff together. And then me and Jake decide that we're gonna buy a house near Covid. Now, when I say we decide we're gonna buy a house, I mean I decide I'm gonna buy a house, and he can come with me. He says, okay, because I was. Because I wanted to buy a house for a long time. And he kept being like, well, let's wait till the prices drop. When the prices drop. Well, what happened to Covid? Right?

[Molly]

There you go.

[Sarah]

And I just got to this point where I was like, dude, listen, I'm either gonna spend this money on rent, which is, like, basically the same as getting a mortgage at the time, because the interest rates were really low. And so you can come with me or you, you know, whatever.

[Hannah]

So how long had you been together at this point?

[Sarah]

I think, like, six or seven years at this point.

[Hannah]

So you've been out of school, living together?

[Sarah]

Out of school, yeah, living together. Like, we lived together at that point for four years. We had gone ring shopping, picked out a ring. Right now pause to say. I was always really worried about getting married because I had grown up hearing a lot of people say that they got married and their relationship changed terribly. And I heard a lot of horror stories. And in the area that I grew up, there was a lot of domestic violence as well. And so I just kept hearing stories about women getting trapped in relationships and not being able to leave. Yeah. And so I liked the idea of having an escape plan. And I just. I don't know. It just. The marriage thing made me nervous. But at this point, when we got a ring and everything like that, we've been negating for, like, six and a half years. Our friends who had been dating for less time than us, were starting to get engaged, and they weren't religious So I was starting to be like, oh, gosh. Like, because, I mean, the religious community that I was a part of, people would date for two months and get married. So it was just one of those things where I was like, oh, when the non religious people started to get married, I was like, oh, this is. I'm starting to feel weird.

[Hannah]

You know, I'm sure there was pressure, people asking you, I almost did it. Oh, you were together six years. It's kind of a long time. Were you thinking of getting married? Like, we're all conditioned to be like, all right, put a ring on it.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Molly]

What's next step?

[Sarah]

Yeah. Are you having this next. Exactly. And so we went ring shopping. And a little part of me was like, it's weird that he hasn't brought this up, but once again, I was the driving force in the relationship. So I thought that was weird. But I also in my heart was like, what's the big deal? We're committed. I will also share about Jake. He didn't have any girlfriends. He. Whenever we go out, he was zoned in on me. Never talked to women, never looked at women, never smiled. He was nice to my women friends, but nothing more. You know how you go out with some people's boyfriends and you're like, yeah, they're kind of flirty or they're kind of out there? Yeah, never. Like, people would constantly come up and be like, jake's so in love with you, he doesn't even think other women exist. Like, you're his everything. I've never seen him so happy. And his family would say this to me too.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

And so for me, I never once thought that any of this could be a thing. But so we go, I suggest, hey, let's go look at rings or do whatever. And he's like, sure, let's do it. We should, you know. So we go pick out a ring. I know he buys it, and then we look for houses. We end up getting a house together. Now we got a realtor that I wouldn't say was great. So what had happened was I was working at a treatment center for like five years or something like that. And I was breaking off to do my practice. And for anyone who knows out there, if you're privately employed, it is really hard to get a house loan. It is really hard. And I didn't think about that because I just didn't know. And so when we decided to get the house loan was right when our lease was getting up with our house that we were renting. And at the Time. The interest rates were really low. And so our plan that we had decided together, Jake and I, is that he knew I would make quite a bit more than he would. So he was like, how about we put my name on this? And then if our next house will put your name and income in this, we'll, like, flip this. Because his dad was a contractor and he was like, we could flip this for very cheap and then sit on it for a couple years and then we'll buy the next house with you. And I was like, sounds great, right?

[Hannah]

And there's so just. I kind of get it, but I don't know if I do. Like, why. Why only have him so his name on the.

[Sarah]

At the time, I didn't understand the difference between a deed and a loan. Now I learned this really quickly. Yeah. But I thought that they were the same thing. And so I thought if we put both of our names on there, then it would not be easy for me to qualify for a loan in the future. Because we were thinking. Sorry. We were thinking about renting the house and keeping it for us both.

[Hannah]

Right.

[Sarah]

So anyways, so I was like, sure. Like, my biggest fear at the time was that he would never be passionate about his job. And that would tear us apart. Because, like, you like ambition. I like ambition. Yeah. That's a great way to say it. So I wasn't worried about anything else. And in my head I was like, if anything goes south, like, he's such a good, honest person. There's no way. Because I put more money into the down payment and I also put a lot more money into the house. And at the time I was like, hey, I'm not going to hold this against him. Like, we're a partnership. Right? And so anyways, we move into this house, we live there for about a year and a half, and we bring our roommate with us. And this is where the story gets so mind blowing and crazy.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, God.

[Hannah]

Oh, no.

[Sarah]

Foreign

[Molly]

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[Mackenzie]

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[Sarah]

So you have to keep in mind at this point, really, our problems were pretty minor. People in our friend group would be like, I want to be like Sarah and Jake, or they would come to me and be like, you have such a solid relationship. Teach us your ways, blah, blah blah. You're also a therapist. What's your advice on my boyfriend? So I kind of was like Hell, yeah. We're a solid couple, right?

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

So it's his birthday day. We went snowboarding all day at a popular resort near us, and we bring all of our friends back to our place afterwards to have some food, hang out. And I listed something on Facebook Marketplace for, honestly the first time. And I was looking, and I saw that I had a message request. Now, I don't know if you use Facebook a lot. I really don't, besides for Facebook Marketplace. And so I was like, oh, that's weird. I think someone tried to message me about. I don't remember what I was selling, just furniture or something. And it went into the spam folder. Right, Right. Yeah.

[Molly]

You have to go check it manually. Yeah.

[Sarah]

And it's like a hidden message request. At least that's how it was, like, years ago when this happened. And so I go and click on it, and I see just messages for months, over and over again. Jake. And his last name was really hard to spell. It was really hard to spell. Like, not even our best friends who had been friends with him for years, knew how to spell his last name. And it says, he's cheating on you. And I was like, what? And so I go and click on the person's profile, and I will include some of the funny details so that people can laugh over there. But I look at it and it says, john Doe. Okay. As the name of the person.

[Molly]

What?

[Sarah]

And then the profile underneath says, jake, last name is cheating on you. And has been for years now. Wow. You guys have to keep in mind, we've been together at this point for almost nine years.

[Molly]

Nine years? Yeah.

[Sarah]

And he had never had a girlfriend before. And my boyfriends, at this point, I don't even know if they remember who I am, you know?

[Hannah]

Yeah, you're basically married.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Molly]

Like.

[Sarah]

Like, we hadn't dated since I was, like, 18, you know? And so in my head, I was like, is this a prank? Like, this is a weird prank. Right.

[Molly]

Did your heart drop at all?

[Sarah]

Or were you like, wait, no, I thought it was a joke. And so I look at it and I laugh. And I look at his face and I go, oh, my gosh, Jake, this is so funny. Someone by the name of John Doe says, you've been cheating on me, and all of the color drains out of his face, and he sprints over and grabs my phone and goes, who the hell is this? And immediately I was like, well, you just outed yourself.

[Mackenzie]

There you go.

[Sarah]

That's obviously not the way someone innocent acts. No. Right. And I just had this One of my best friends was there and she. She's amazing. And she turned to her husband and she's like, we need to go. But none of my other friends even noticed. But she got everyone out because I'm sitting there like. Like this cheated on me. And according to John Doe, it's been for years. And so then everyone leaves and I confront him, I say, jake, what is this? What's going on? And he's just stuttering and walking back and forth and pacing. And he goes, john Doe? I don't even know someone by the name of John Doe. What?

[Hannah]

Duh. Oh, my God.

[Sarah]

And for you guys that don't know in the audience, John Doe is a very common term that they use in legal systems. People who do not want to be identified, right?

[Molly]

And John Doe, boy, they call him John Doe. It's a generic name.

[Hannah]

It's anybody watch name the pit, baby Jane Doe.

[Sarah]

And so I'm sitting here not only like, I can't believe this motherfucker cheated on me, but I'm also like, I can't believe I'm dating a moron. You know, because he clearly, I don't

[Molly]

even know what John Doe.

[Sarah]

Yeah. And I was like, jake, I will give you till tomorrow morning to figure out what you're gonna tell me. And it better be the damn truth.

[Molly]

Wait, you gave him to. Oh, good for you. I had sat there.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

Like you're a therapist. What was going on in your body? Are you shaking, sweating, trying not to pee yourself? Because that's probably what I would have been doing.

[Sarah]

You know what's weird is, is that I legit like it. I was so confused and I was so taken back, but my mission was to get proof from this person. And so I told them, like, go figure it out. And the thing I always tell people is people's actions tell you a lot more than what their words do. And I could always tell when he was lying because he was a terrible liar. He was just really good at hiding things. And there's a big difference with that, because I knew if I got a list of direct questions for him, then he would stutter and not be able to answer if they were lies. Because. And here's how Jake and I are different is that if I had some secret long term affair, I would be up at night being like, okay, if my partner ever found this out, here's what I would say, here's what I would do.

[Molly]

Yeah, like you'd like. This is what I'm gonna say. Okay, now I got a plan.

[Sarah]

Yes. This man was like, oh, my gosh, I never thought this would happen. And I was like, you idiot. Like, nowadays it's so easy for people to reach out and find your partners. And so I told them. I was like, you know, you get. You would get over there and get yourself together. And I'm gonna go call this person and figure out what they have to say to me. And your stories better be the same, or else we're done.

[Molly]

Wow.

[Sarah]

Right? So I go outside, I call this person, I try to contact them. They won't answer my phone calls, but they say, hey, just to let you know, Jake has been sleeping with my wife for 10 years. And so you have to keep in mind, at this point, we've been together for like, eight and a half. And so I was like, did he just find out? He told me that he had known about him in the past, but they had worked through it. So what had sounded like happened is that it sounded like Jake met this girl in college, they hooked up for a while, then she got engaged, and they put it off, but then they kept talking is what it sounded like.

[Hannah]

And when did these messages start? Because you hadn't seen them for a while, right?

[Sarah]

So they started like, three months prior. But this person was so intentious on getting a hold of me. So Jake's birthday was in February. And I think the person was reaching out since, like, Thanksgiving. And he was like, me and my wife are getting a divorce because of this, and I know no one's told you, and so I was like, can you send me proof? Like, this is just crazy. I've like, Jake was never weird.

[Molly]

Okay, good question.

[Sarah]

Jake was never weird around his phone. He was never hidden. He was never the guy that was on Instagram. He was never following a bunch of people. Like, I just. Just. It was mind blowing.

[Hannah]

It's almost like, does he even have it in him? That's kind of right, because he doesn't sound like.

[Sarah]

I was like, he wasn't also that charming. But anyways, so John Doe sends me screenshots of them talking, and they're all very sexual. Very, like, interestingly sexual. Like, stuff that I wouldn't look at and be like, oh, this is sexy. I'd be like, this is kind of like a teenager trying to come up with someone. But whatever. Like, this is weird, you know, And. And so I was like, thank you so much for telling me. You know, he's like, I don't want to get into details. I don't want to be more involved, but you should know, Right.

[Hannah]

Wow. Do you remember any of the things in the screenshot?

[Sarah]

Oh, what did they say? Oh, I think they said something like, take a picture of your naked body and send it to me when you're alone. Like, stuff like that, where it was just like, that's not even sexy, dude.

[Mackenzie]

Like.

[Sarah]

Like, put a little effort into it.

[Hannah]

Take a picture of your naked body and hit send.

[Sarah]

Really, though? Really, though. And so I come back in, and Jake is panicking. He's sweating, he's crying. I'd never seen him cry ever. Which, by the way, another sign of some things that are interesting to come. But he's bawling, and he goes, I have a porn issue. And I am sitting there, I'm ready for him to confess, because I also am not dumb. So I'm like, okay, if there's one girl that you have had for X amount of years, there's got to be 100. So I'm waiting for him to be like, there's been three girls. And, you know, I'm waiting for that. So he says, I have a porn addiction. And I sit there and I'm like, what? Because in my head, I'm like, you're not from this conservative state. You're not religious at all. In my brain, I'll be honest with you. That's the only people I thought that had porn problems, you know, is people like, I knew he was having sex since he was, like, 13, so I didn't think for a second that he was gonna have this problem.

[Hannah]

I would have thought he was just making an excuse where he's like, yeah, I'm cheating. But I'm gonna say, like, oh, it's. It's because of a porn addiction.

[Sarah]

So, Hannah, you know what? It's so funny when I tell this story, that's what everyone thinks, that he was doing that. And if I didn't know him, I would have thought the same thing. But. But his reputation and how people viewed him was so important to him that the thought of people. And by the way, just for you guys to know, I'm gonna talk about some of this stuff in the way that the. I think society frames it. This, as a therapist is not how I feel, but knowing him, I know he was like, I don't want people to think I have this quote unquote disgusting habit. Right?

[Hannah]

Yes, totally. I totally get what you mean.

[Sarah]

Yeah. And so, like, for me, I would never pathologize a habit like that or addiction like that. I understand that addictions come in all shapes and sizes, but that was his thing is he was like, I would never like make this up because I. Because. And he also knew I was close to my friends, so he knew there's a good chance I was going to tell him, you know.

[Hannah]

Wow.

[Sarah]

And so he was bawling and he was like, I've had this problem since I was a little kid. My parents found me and told me to always hide it and that if I ever told anyone, I'd never have a good relationship. That's why I never dated anyone, because I didn't know how to get help. And like, what you. You help me now? I want to let you ladies know, we, for about two years maybe had sex like once every four months. And I would ask him, I was like, what's going on? Like, I know it's not, you know, you don't have sex when you're dating someone for like 10 years. The same amount when you're dating for two months. Yeah, but this seems weird. And he would be like, you are so horny and addicted to sexual things. I cannot believe you are sitting here begging me for sex like this, this. And I was like, okay. And this is the only time I ever saw like this really nasty side come out of him. Cuz I brought it up a couple times because I was like, we're going months without you even touching me, you know? And he would just be like, I'm sorry, I can't perform like I did. So when all this stuff comes out, I ask him, I say, wait, okay, you're telling me of a porn addiction and you didn't want to have sex ever? And he goes, it's because I was. Was jerking off so much all day that my skin was so raw that I was bleeding most days.

[Molly]

Oh, that's a problem.

[Sarah]

And I was like, put some. So you're telling me. Yeah, you're telling me you're literally jerking off so much you are not working. Which, by the way, I found out later he got fired from multiple jobs because they would look at his computer and see. Find what he was doing. Yeah. On his work computer, by the way. Anyways, and so I know, I mean,

[Hannah]

he was a. I believe he was addicted, I don't think.

[Sarah]

Yeah, okay. But yeah, he was addicted and also just not thinking very well about any of this. And I'm sitting there just. It's like 10pm at this point. I have work the next day. I. I'm literally like, what am I gonna do? His name's on the Sloan of my house. So at this point, I'M also in a state that doesn't recognize, really, that if we're not married, that our property is communal. I'm like, all this stuff is going through my head. I'm like, how do I end up with someone who hid an addiction now and at least one affair? And I was like. And I even asked him. I was like, how did you keep this from me? I'm a therapist. How did you not come and talk to me about it? Like, if anyone's going to be understanding, it's me. Me, you know? And he grabbed my hands, and he looked me in the eyes, and he goes, now that you know, I'm ready to marry you. And I was like. And in my head, I was like, I'm literally planning how to get out of here. Like, are you kidding me? Can I.

[Molly]

Were you. Are you, like, the jealous type at all? Like, were you feeling any jealousy or anything? I'd have been fuming, because jealousy, you know.

[Sarah]

Okay, so at first my thought was, I gotta see this girl. I gotta know her name. I gotta, like, compare myself to see

[Molly]

if she's prettier than her.

[Sarah]

Yeah, I gotta see if she's prettier than me. Like, honestly, all that went through my head. But what he shared with his porn issue, I was like, oh, this is real. Is that he told me so at the time when he was having a hard time getting new jobs, my. My sister worked at a very notable tech company. And. And she was like, I can get him a job. And I was like, amazing, because they have great benefits. His job was dissolving. It was going in the shitter. And I told him, and he wouldn't even apply. And I was like, why not? And he was like, well, half the week is in person. And I was like, they're 15 minutes away from our house. I know that virtual is awesome, but come on, you know? And then he shares with me when he says the porn thing, he's like, like, well, I literally watch so much porn, I can't go into an office. And I was like, oh. So I find out he's watching eight to nine hours of porn a day. And the thing that was so shocking is that he kept. Every time he would talk about it, he'd go, just to let you know, it's nothing illegal. Just to let you know it's nothing illegal. Just to let you know. And I was like, okay, no one's asking that. Like, now I'm thinking you're watching illegal.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

I was like, okay, that you're making me more Scared. And so I was just like, okay, well, you know, I.

[Hannah]

That almost was like a bigger bomb dropping than having an affair.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

In my head, I was like, okay, we hear about that a lot.

[Sarah]

At first. At first I was like, oh, hell no, you're not gonna cheat on me and have this long term affair. And then after he started talking, I was like, oh, please, just have it be a long term affair. I can get over that easier than that.

[Molly]

Oh, my God.

[Sarah]

So. So he drops this bomb on me that he's watching this much porn. And I'm like, listen, I appreciate you being transparent with me, but I'm livid because we just intertwined our finances. We just bought a house, you kept this huge addiction secret from me, and now I don't feel like I have a choice of if I get to end up with you or not. I feel trapped with you.

[Molly]

I feel trapped. Yeah.

[Sarah]

Yeah. And so. So I. I asked him to leave, and I'm like, go get a hotel or something. And then he was like, well, I might kill myself.

[Molly]

Oh, no.

[Sarah]

And I said, okay, well, if you are threatening suicide right now, then I'm gonna call the cops and hospitalize you because I'm a mandated reporter. And he was like, well, I just don't know what's gonna happen if I'm by myself. And I said, no problem. I'll call your mom. So I called his mom and I told her what was going on.

[Hannah]

You told her everything, huh?

[Sarah]

And her response was, well, what can you expect, Sarah? Men are like that.

[Hannah]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[Sarah]

And I was like, are you serious? One problem at a time.

[Molly]

Well, so now we know where the problem initiated.

[Sarah]

Oh, my gosh, don't even get me started on this. But anyways, and so I was just like, okay, well, just make sure he's safe, because at the end of the day, no matter how frustrated I am at this whole situation, I do really hope that he gets help and addresses his issues, because no one deserves to let their addiction take them. But I also was like, I'm not gonna be the person to support him. I just found out my whole relationship's a lie.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

Yeah. I love that you. I mean, he's so lucky that you are the partner he was with because you have that empathy and the professional understanding of what he was going through. And both. You know that both things can be true. Like, it can be a real thing that he's deal with that you have empathy for, but it's not your responsibility.

[Sarah]

Well, and that also helped me Long term wise. Because it helped me know that you can be the best partner in the world. You can have the tools, you can be the therapist, you can be the most emotionally mature person in the room. And you can still have someone cheat on you, deceive you, lie to you.

[Molly]

That has nothing to do with you.

[Sarah]

And I think a lot of times in our society we put this pressure on women that like, oh, if you're a good enough wife or partner, your, your man will change, he'll straighten up. And I did everything I could for him, you know, and so anyways, I, I called a friend, so he has support systems now. Because I'm like, this man is not about to threaten to hurt himself to keep me keeping him in the house. Because that's the other thing too is I told him I just need a couple days. Days, Just a couple days. Because my biggest problem that I have is I see someone suffering and I can't process my own emotions. And I'm like, I know I'll be fine. Let me help you. Because you're empathetic, right? Well, and also my whole training for my job trains me to be that way. Like if I have a bad day, I got to put it aside. My clients come first. So I just kind of naturally do that. Which is great in a lot of ways for compartmentalization, but when you're going through the biggest moment of your life, it's atrocious, right? Yes. And so anyways, I asked him to leave to go to the hotel because I needed some space, I need some time to think about things. And he was just going day by day. We were kind of touching base here and there. He was sending me text messages throughout the time of when can I come back? I miss you. And I just ignored them. And the next, I think it was either the next day or two days in, I decided to contact a lawyer because I realized I don't know much about our house. I don't know legality wise, how that works. We've been in a partnership for eight years. But what do I do as far as protection for myself? So I call and schedule with a lawyer and the lawyer basically breaks down for me that I need to get my name on the deed of the house to make sure that I'm protected legally for when this separates. So in my brain, the mission was I gotta get my name on that deed so that I legally am in a good spot. Because I knew as soon as Jake knew he couldn't get me back, that it was probably going to get Pretty messy. And I wasn't sure if I was going to take him back. I wasn't sure what I was going to do. But regardless, I wanted my name on that legal paperwork. And so he kept texting me, saying, I miss you. I would do anything to get you back. I would do all these other things. And so I texted him and said, well, if you want to get me back, one of the things that you need to do is put my name on that deed. Because the way I framed it, and this is also coming from an honest place, but I kind of framed it of a question of, was your plan always to get me to invest in this house, do all this stuff so that you could just screw me over and hook up with whoever you wanted? And then if I found out, cool, it doesn't matter. And if I, you know, don't, then great, I can have my cake, eat it, too. So I kind of framed it like that to him, knowing that he, especially when he was desperate to try to get me back, that he would be like, no, no, I'll prove right now, like, I will call the agency. I will get your name on the deed. And that's exactly what he did. And so I told him he couldn't move back in the house until my name was on that deed and that I got the paperwork for it. And so within that week, that was sent over to me, signed it. And so then by the end of the week, he was saying things like, how are we supposed to work on this if I'm in a hotel room and doing all these other things? And to be honest with you, I didn't want him back. But I also really wanted to make sure that I was giving it a chance to see how I felt once the water settled. So I let him come back, and he was really remorseful. We also got him set up with a therapist for the next week or something. And so we spent a couple nights when he came back, just talking about the whole thing that I'm like, okay, it's time for you to confess everything. Which, by the way, I gave him, like, four days by himself at a hotel. And this man did not come up with a plan at all of what he was going to tell me. And he was like, oh, I don't know. Like, I just. This girl. And I was like, oh, my God, are you kidding me? And so finally, I was just like, okay, break it down for me. How did you go so long with talking to this girl without me figuring out? Because I knew the passwords to his Phone. He never did that shady thing where you're like, hey, let me switch the song. And he's like, no, I got it. You know, like nothing like that. That. Right? So I'm like, okay, break it down for me. How did you do this? Well, what he would say is, okay, well, one of the big reasons I like to go for married women is because we both have something to lose. So we would make agreements that neither of us would reach out past three every.

[Molly]

Because if you.

[Hannah]

Okay, so to be clear, he's talking about multiple women.

[Sarah]

Oh, yeah.

[Hannah]

He's admitted to multiple women.

[Sarah]

At this point, he's admitted to four. But I'm guaranteeing you that he was reaching out to more, right?

[Hannah]

Oh, okay. But he like tells you, I've talked to four married women.

[Sarah]

Women. Now, the weirder part about this is that I asked him, I was like, okay, so you've slept with all these women? He goes, not exactly. And I was like, well, what the hell does that mean? And he goes, well, they just come over and give me oral and then leave.

[Molly]

Why?

[Sarah]

Ew, that is so much weirder. And in my head I was like, liar. Like, liar. What woman would jeopardize her family to come over and give it to.

[Hannah]

To be like, anyone I know?

[Molly]

No.

[Sarah]

And I just was like, okay, I. I think you're lying to me to try to for some reason make the cheating less terrible. And so I'm like, okay, he obviously has a weird relationship with the truth. And so.

[Hannah]

Ah, that's what they call it nowadays.

[Sarah]

Yeah. And so I tell him and I'm like, listen, I think we need to go to couples therapy. And he just is like, like, no,

[Molly]

you were like, you were willing to work past it.

[Sarah]

Honestly, no. I felt like when I found that out, it was so shocking. But also I felt like it was almost as if, you know when you're a little kid and you find out that your celebrity crush on your favorite TV show isn't actually a real person, I realized that's how I felt is that I felt like, oh, I'm just learning that the person that I was in love with isn't real. They're an actor. It's like a make believe person. And so it was so much easier to move past him because I realized I didn't know him at all. But here's the thing, is that the lawyer told me, he was like, this is probably going to get nasty. Here's about how much fees are. I would start saving me your money because my savings were running kind of Low because I was paying for. Paying for everything. Yeah, right.

[Hannah]

So he's saying that it's going to be nasty to try to get this house away from him.

[Sarah]

Right? And I at the time was like, no, he knows he made the mistake, so he's gonna be easy to work with. And the guy was like, that's what you think until they. They know they. They can't get you. Like, this lawyer was a homie. And so I was like, that's good to know. So in my head, I was like, I know myself well enough to know if I don't give this at least a shot, I will always look back and wonder if I could have done something.

[Molly]

Yeah, right.

[Mackenzie]

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[Sarah]

And so I was like, let's see what the therapist says. I don't know much about porn addiction besides the whisperings. I've heard about it. And I've always been a specialty therapist, and I've always primarily worked with women. And so I. I was just like in this spot where I was like, okay, I'm gonna, you know, see what this actually looks like. Right? So I told Jake, hey, I will go to a couple of therapy. I'm not promising that we're going to stay together. Like, this is the bare minimum. And I was like, you also need to go to your own therapist. And he Goes, well, well, okay, I'll go. But, like, I don't want to. And I knew he was weird about his feelings. And I mentioned that earlier that he could never talk about his feelings. And so I was like, this is gonna be good for him. But also, I don't know if he's gonna do it. So he goes to one session with a therapist. Okay. And I say, how'd it go? And he goes, I'm cured.

[Hannah]

No, no, honey, no.

[Sarah]

And I look at him and I said, what? And he goes, yeah. The therapist says, I don't need therapy. Cause I'm doing so well. And I was.

[Hannah]

The thing about therapy is that if you don't say anything, then they don't know anything.

[Sarah]

Well, I was like, okay, there's one of two things happening. Either A, he's lying, or this therapist is like, oh, your girlfriend found you doing something she doesn't like. You know, you're probably downplaying it, like, you're fine. And I was like, you can't tell me that a therapist heard you're watching eight to nine hours of porn a day and that you're cured after an intake session.

[Molly]

No way.

[Sarah]

That's. So I was like, okay, well, we're gonna try couples therapy. And then he goes, I'll come with you to your therapist. And my therapist agreed to do one session with us, and we leave. And I was like, hey, what do you think? My therapist was awesome.

[Hannah]

Yeah. How did it go?

[Sarah]

Like, I thought it went okay. I was shocked, though, because the whole time my therapist was like, so how does that make you feel, Jay? And Jake would be like, I don't understand the question. And he was like, like, your feelings? And he was like, I don't know how to answer that. But I was sitting there in this session. I was like, this man doesn't know how to talk about his feelings. Yeah, like, that's concerning. We're close to our 30s at this point. He doesn't know how to say, I'm overwhelmed, or I'm stressed. And in my head, at this time, he'd said he'd been listening to podcasts and doing his own work. And I didn't want to be a therapist being like, hey, where's your homework? But I was also like, kay, what are you, like, learning? And he was like, I just hate that every conversation we have is about this. And I was like, okay, well, I just. You have to keep in mind, Jake, I don't want to commit to you further and waste more of my life if you're not scumbag.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

So at this point, after we went to the therapy session, I. I was like, I can't do this. I can't do this. In my head, I was like, I'm done. I'm gonna give it through the summer. Because at this point, it was, like, May. And my plan was to make it through the summer because I had $10,000 I'd saved up. Up. And the lawyer told me it probably cost about that much.

[Hannah]

Before you move on, can you talk to me about, like, what your days are like at this time?

[Sarah]

Yes. Okay.

[Hannah]

Talking in the morning over coffee, like, what's great? How are you living together?

[Sarah]

He acts like we are the most in love we've ever been.

[Molly]

Oh.

[Sarah]

He is telling me he's gonna propose to me because now this big secret's off his chest. He's so happy. Now you have to.

[Molly]

You didn't leave. You found out, and you didn't leave.

[Sarah]

Leave. I didn't.

[Molly]

And now he knows.

[Sarah]

The other thing, too, is I didn't tell a soul. I didn't tell a soul. My one friend that saw his face drop, she followed up about it, and she knew. She's always known me better than anyone. She was like, so, what's going on with you guys? And I was like, oh, he admitted to some things, but, like, we're working on it. And she. She was very respectful of privacy and stuff. But the reason why is I knew if I told any of my friends, they would never support me being with him. Him.

[Hannah]

Right.

[Sarah]

And I was like, what if we work this out? And then everyone at our wedding one day is like, oh, she's such an idiot. He's gonna do it again. Mur, mur, mur. And then I was also like, I don't want everyone else's opinion to taint it, because I also don't want that to get messy. Like, if I break this off, I want it to be because I. I did. Right? Yeah.

[Hannah]

But that sounds like there is a part of you that is still open to working through it.

[Molly]

It.

[Sarah]

Yeah. I think at that time, especially in the area that I was in. I mean, people had, like, one or two kids by my age. I didn't think I had options. I was at a point where I hadn't dated in, like, nine or ten years. My family loved him, which was incredible, because I didn't think they would ever love a man. That wasn't the part of the faith that I was. And so I was like, my whole life is intertwined with.

[Molly]

And.

[Sarah]

And I Want to start over. I was also so worried if I told my family what happened, that they would be like, this is why you need to marry a religious man and come back.

[Molly]

Yeah, well, we told you to meet somebody at church, right?

[Sarah]

And so I just didn't want that. And so I was like, I'm gonna figure this out on my own. I'm not gonna judge anyone about it. I'm gonna. Just me and my therapist or homies. Like, he's gonna help me through this, and I'm gonna hire a lawyer and a mediator, and I'm gonna figure this out.

[Molly]

Out.

[Sarah]

So then it. We jump to. It's summer. His family. I never loved his family. I'm just gonna say it. So his mom, Linda, they had a weird relationship. So she would just surprise me. And you have to keep in mind, we had another roommate there. She would just surprise us and fly out, not tell anyone. She had my number. And she would just show up and be at our house for, like, two weeks. Hey. And she would also try to call me our pet names for each other.

[Molly]

What?

[Sarah]

Like, yeah, like, we had pet names for each other. And then she would be like, babe, blah, blah, blah. Like, we had no ma'. Am. And I was like, that's weird. She would ask to sleep in bed with us.

[Molly]

What?

[Sarah]

Cause she wanted to cuddle. And she would fly out without her husband all the time. And then she would always be like, you're so lucky you get to sleep with my son. He's the perfect man.

[Hannah]

Oh, my gosh. She's one of those.

[Sarah]

Yeah. And I would make jokes to my friends. I was like, I think that they might have a thing. Like. And at the time, I was like, it's a little weird. And I would make jokes because I. Like, that's how I get through life, is joking about things that are appropriate. But I was also, like, kind of like, a little part of me is worried about this, you know?

[Molly]

Dude, that's weird.

[Sarah]

It's weird. And she would have a field day. Oh. And, like, we would have snowboarding trips that would be, like, us from college. Like, fraternity, sorority. Like, snowboarding trips. And she would invite herself, even though she doesn't ski or snowboard. And no one wanted his mom there, none of us. And we would tell him, and he'd be like, you have to tell my mom. And I was like, why did you invite her anyways? So she was just a huge nuisance. Like, she would be like, I just wish I was, like, your guys's friends. And she would call Me to ask for drama about our friend group. And I was like, girl, what? This is weird. She'd be like, is so and so still dating this person? And I'd be like, why do you care? Like, my parents. Parents. I love my parents, but they could not name like half my friends. They'd be like, who's your friend again? Sally. And I'd be like, I don't even have a friend named Sally. Like, you know, Anyways, so. So I just thought it was so weird. Like, so much enmeshment, right? And so Jake tells me we're having a 50 year family reunion. There's all these families I've never met before. It's a big deal. It's in July. And by the way, you guys have to keep in mind. So he refused to go to therapy with me, but his compromise is every Wednesday we would sit and talk about our feelings about the incident. Okay. And I was like, okay, let's see what he does with this. Right?

[Hannah]

Two weeks in, can you clarify the incident? The cheating or the porn?

[Sarah]

Both. Both.

[Hannah]

All of it.

[Sarah]

Okay. All of it.

[Hannah]

And is he like saying that he's not watching porn anymore?

[Sarah]

Yeah, he said completely cured. Which. Okay, yeah, I never believed that. But I wasn't gonna be the person that installed like nanny cams on our thing, you know? And so every week we get together and we sit and talk about it. Well, we do this like two or three times. And he turns to me and goes, we have a perfect relationship, except for this one minor thing that you just won't let go.

[Molly]

Oh, my God.

[Hannah]

And he was good until you found out.

[Sarah]

He keeps, like, accusing me like, we have a perfect relationship besides this. And I'm like, what? This is a huge problem. What are you talking about? So anyways, he's really insisting on me coming to this family reunion now. At this point, I knew I was done. I was like, I'm done. I'm leaving your ass. I was just looking for the lawyer that I really wanted to work on the case. So I was doing a lot of research at the time, and I was like, I don't want to go to this family reunion. Because I knew too that, like, his family was pretty small, but they had a bunch of extended family that were coming from all over the place. And I was like, I just. There's gonna be family pictures. We've been dating for so long that people are going to ask us when the wedding is, and I just can't look them in the face and deal with that. So I tell Him. I'm like, I don't want to go. And he's like, well, everyone's gonna ask where you are. And then Linda, his mom, is like, I'll just pay for a ticket. And she just bought me a ticket. And I was like, okay, I guess I'm going to this family.

[Hannah]

Oh, no.

[Sarah]

And so I go. And the whole time I'm just watching them. I am like, I hate this family. I don't. And the whole time, I was imagining, like, what would it be like if I ended up with someone that their mom wasn't trying to have weird relationships with them? And in my head, I was like, this is amazing to think about. I don't have to do this anymore.

[Hannah]

You're just daydreaming.

[Sarah]

Yeah, I'm just daydream. And he goes and tells everyone, I bought a ring. I'm proposing to her in the next couple months. Into my head, I'm like, sucker. Like, I'm so checked out.

[Molly]

Which. How.

[Sarah]

How are you, like, pretending? Yeah.

[Hannah]

Talk about these. This role you're playing.

[Molly]

Oh.

[Sarah]

The part that was the hardest for me is the inner torment that I felt. And I'm a big believer in the universe and karma. And the weirdest thing is, is that in all of my years of being a therapist, porn was barely brought up. And then around the time that this happened, I had multiple clients who had partners who had porn problems who were doing the same things that Jake was doing. And then they were telling me about it, and it was very clear. Like, I was, like, looking in a mirror. But it was very clear to me that. That there were gonna be a lot of problems that they were gonna face, and that their partners weren't doing the actions that they needed to save their relationship. And they were. Those partners were doing more than Jake was. And I just sat there, and I was like, if I was talking to myself. Yeah, there is no way I would be like. I was thinking about my therapist and how he was with me, and I was like, this man. I feel so bad for him because he was always neutral, but you could tell he was trying to lead me. He kept being like, what is he doing to actually change this? It sounds like you're doing all the work, you know? And I just kept being like, he's right. He's not doing anything. He's just saying he's getting better. Right? And so at this time, I was numb. I hadn't told my friends, so it didn't feel real. I didn't tell my family, so it didn't Feel real. And I just got to this point where I was like, I. I guess I'm okay being alone.

[Mackenzie]

Alone.

[Sarah]

Like, in my head, I wasn't gonna have anyone. I was never gonna date again. I'm just gonna be alone. And then, actually, this guy at my gym was, like, very attractive older dude that honestly made a lot of money, and he started kind of flirting with me. And I just was like, oh, I guess, like, there are guys that could be into me, and that's all I needed. I just needed someone to pay a little bit of attention to me, to be like, oh, I guess I'm not disgusting. Because my partner would rather jerk off to porn every day than be with someone he said he loved.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

And so I just had this reminder. I was like, oh, I'm not dried up or washed up. Because that's the other thing is, in the area that I lived in, is that so many women, if they got over the age of 25 and they weren't married, you were treated like an old maid. And so I was like, oh, yeah, that's right. That's not the rest of the world world. Right, Right. And the thing that was the hardest for me to get past is the mistrust I had for myself of calling him so wrong. Because I work with people for a living. I analyze their behavior for a living, and there was not even a moment where I felt anxious of my safety. Like, emotional, physical, all these other things, because. And I'm sure if he ever heard that, he would think, well, I would never hurt you. But the truth is, is that giving someone an STD is hurtful. Or sleeping with them unconsensually of knowing how many partners they're sleeping with is hurtful, you know? And so it's hard to know that I trusted someone so fully that wasn't even close to deserving it. So for the longest time, the hardest part for me was trying to be okay with the fact that sometimes someone doesn't really give you a lot of signs. And it's okay that I trusted someone and they betrayed that. But that's. That was the thing that gave me the hardest response, is that I felt very icked out by almost myself and my judgment. And so I just got to this point where I was like, I just don't care. Even if I end up alone, I don't care. I don't want to be coming home every day knowing this man is lying to me, knowing it's only, like, even if he isn't watching porn right now or cheating on me. It's just a matter of time.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

Yeah. You know? So we get back from this family reunion, he's told everyone he's gonna propose, and I'm like, oh, and then my favorite is the first thing out of his mouth. Well, we can go to couples therapy now.

[Hannah]

Thanks a lot.

[Molly]

Thanks.

[Sarah]

Yeah. And I look at him so much, and I look at him and I was like, I don't care about you anymore. I haven't loved you. I was like, I haven't loved you for months. I support us financially. Like, you don't bring anything to the table.

[Molly]

I'm gonna be so for. And right now there's nothing you can do for me.

[Sarah]

Yeah, exactly. And he was crying and begging me, and just like, all this stuff now this is where I was like, oh, he for sure has a problem. Okay. I always had this little fear that he made this up because of getting caught cheating. But after what happens next, I was like, this man has a problem because I leave. I move in with that one girl I mentioned beforehand. She was amazing. Best roommate ever. I had the most fun I've ever had. Saving Grace. But when I moved in with her, he started like, the first day was like, baby, I can't imagine my life without you. Just take some time. Like, come back. Like, bull. I think I. There's just no one. Like, losing you is the worst thing ever. And then I wasn't responding. A day or two later, he starts sending me sexual messages, like, jerk off videos. And he hadn't sent anything like this pretty much ever in our relationship.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

And he's sending this stuff. He's, like, sexualizing me. He's talking about how hot it is that I'm not available anymore. And I was just like, oh, this man's unwell. And so I finally am like, hey, I have to block you on Instagram and everything because this is wildly inappropriate. It's harassment. Yeah. And at the time, we hired a mediator to work on the house with us, and I had a lawyer in my back pocket because just in case it got nasty, you know? And I was like, I have to block you, but I can't block your number because we're working on this still, right? And so then we start meeting with his mediator, and he goes from being so sweet into like. Like, it's, you know, I'm the reason we broke up. So, like, blah, blah, blah, into. Then the mediator is like, well, you're going to owe her about 40 to $50,000. And immediately he goes into, well, she left me. I was the one who was willing to work on things, blah, blah, blah. And I was just like, oh, my gosh. And so we're trying to figure this out. It's costing us hundreds, but not thousands yet. It's costing us hundreds. And then he just ghosts us. Me, my mediator, he just radio silence, gone. We're trying to contact him for months. Nothing. So you have to keep in mind, all my furniture is in that house, and all of my belongings are in that house. And all of a sudden, I'm like, okay. I'm like, I'm not paying the mortgage anymore, but all my stuff is there. And so I hire this lawyer, and she reaches out to him, and she's like, if you do not respond, we are taking your ass to court hurt, and you do not want to go there. And so he starts responding and working with us. But that cost me so much money. But anyway, so she's like. Because at the time, I didn't know my rights, right? And so I asked her, I'm like, can I go in and get my stuff? And she's like, yeah, absolutely. You can go get your stuff. But just keep in mind, don't do anything crazy, because that could be a problem. And I was like, no problem. At this point, I didn't even tell anyone besides my bestie that I lived with about what happened to us. Us. Like, people didn't know yet. Didn't tell my family, didn't tell my friends because I just was in such a fragile state. I just knew it was so juicy to our friend group that I would get calls, I would get texts. People would want to know the story. And I was like, I am fragile.

[Hannah]

How long has gone by since you.

[Sarah]

Like, three. Three months, probably.

[Hannah]

You don't know what he's doing.

[Sarah]

I don't know what he's doing. I don't know who he's bringing over. I don't know what's happening.

[Hannah]

No, you don't. You're not talking to.

[Sarah]

Was playing friend. The roommate that we lived with is keeping me updated a little bit.

[Hannah]

Okay.

[Sarah]

But I didn't want him to feel, like, torn or too involved. So it was more just like, hey, what is he doing? Does he have girls over? And he was like, literally, the day you left, a girl came by and brought him dinner. Awesome. So he was talking to her for sure the whole time.

[Hannah]

We were still working on who is this man?

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

Timid guy.

[Sarah]

So anyway. Anyways, this is where the story gets shocking. More shocking. So I talked to the Lawyer. She's like, hey, you can go over there. I would recommend going over when he's not there and getting your stuff out. So I go over there, I get my stuff together, and I tell him, by the way, he's up snowboarding. I tell him, like, hey, I'm gonna go get my stuff, right? I'm getting all my stuff out of the closet. He had this mail, like, I don't know how to describe it. Like a jewelry box that, like, it's like, for watches, a guy's watch box or something. And so I accidentally knock it over and out pops this memory book. And I'm looking at it, and the first couple pages are cute, right? They're like Polaroids of us on the beach or family pictures. And then I flipped it, and it was just sex workers that he had paid for, like, very specific kink stuff that all looked exactly like his mother.

[Mackenzie]

These are photos of them.

[Sarah]

Kink stuff? Yeah. Like, so it was like. Like, imagine a journal where it's like, July, I'm on the beach with my girlfriend. Next picture, Woman masturbating. That looks like my mom. Next picture, my mom and I standing on the golf course. Next picture, Woman with her boobs out.

[Hannah]

Like, that looks like his mom.

[Sarah]

It looks just like his mom. And his mom had a very distinct look. So it's not just a coincidence. Like, when I saw it, I literally thought I found pornography from his mother. Oh, my God. And so I was like, you have got to be kidding me. You've got to be kidding me. And so I. My friend, the one that I lived with, was with me getting stuff, and I just called her in here, and I was like, this was the most upset I got. I was like, look at this. And she was looking. She was like, I can't even look at what I'm seeing right now because it's so upsetting.

[Molly]

And she knows what the mom looks like.

[Sarah]

Like, yeah. She's like, this is. Well, she. She was also like, I think some of these pictures are pictures of what looks like someone he's paid that looks like his brother. So not only did he have pictures of him and, like, a mom look alike that was doing very sexual things to themselves and to him. So he was, like, taking Polaroids with these people, but also one that looked very much like his. His. His brother. I. Yeah. Which.

[Hannah]

Oh, wow. And was that news to you?

[Sarah]

Oh, yep. Total news to me. I didn't know that we had that kind of going on. And you have to keep in mind, too, they were all Dated and. Oh, my God. So the whole time he was telling me, like, I'm not watching porn. I'm not doing this. Whatever. He's inviting these sex workers over to my house, and them while he's telling me he's not.

[Hannah]

After you've already found out about the porn addiction.

[Sarah]

It's the craziest thing, because in the memory book, it was like, Polaroid of me. Sex worker, Polaroid mom, sex worker. It wasn't even, like, half my memory book is my sex workers, and half my memory book is my girlfriend. And there was no sexual pictures of me or, like, it was just these sex workers or people he was hooking up with, but just the nature of them and stuff. I just. I don't. They didn't feel like girls that he had a relationship with, you know?

[Hannah]

Sure. Wait, so how far back did these go?

[Sarah]

Like, right. Oh. Oh, years. Years.

[Hannah]

So he's been doing this for years?

[Sarah]

Years.

[Hannah]

Are you like. I would be thinking about STIs.

[Molly]

Oh.

[Sarah]

Oh, yeah. Well. Oh, I. I should have mentioned this. So one of the reasons I was over our relationship is I had two nightmares during this time. I had a nightmare that he gave me an incurable std. Oh. And I, like, it was so real. In my dream, it was like, 10 years in the future. And I went to the doctors, and they were like, you're gonna die from this std. And I woke up, and I remember just being like, in my dream. I was like, I fucking knew it. I knew he didn't get better. And that's when I woke up. And then the other dream I constantly would have is that the police would come to my house and that I would lose my license because he was watching illegal porn. So that's for real. Yeah. So I kept having these two reoccurring nightmares. Now, I never had proof that he was watching any illegal porn. It's just the way that he kept saying that. And so those nightmares just over and over again. I just got to the point where I was like, I don't want him to touch me. I'm having nightmares that he is gonna give me something that I'm gonna have to live with for the rest of my life. That's gonna really be hard, you know? And so that was a big reason why that was, like, nail in the coffin for me. And so I'm seeing all these. And that was the most upset I'd been the whole time. My stomach dropped, and I started blowing up his phone, being like, I hate you. I'm. Cause I Let him use our bedroom furniture, because once again, I bought it, but I didn't have anywhere to store it at the time because my friend had an extra guest bed and stuff. And so I was like, whatever, I'll let him use it while we're figuring out the house. And I was like, I am coming tomorrow with new movers, and I'm moving all of my furniture out, so you better get your stuff out of here. So the next day, bring movers by. He's still ghosting my lawyer, right? Right. And so I tell her I, like, I find all the stuff. And I was like, I want to screw him over. I don't care how much money it takes. And she was such a homie. She, like, very quietly goes, listen, if you take him to court, it's going to cost you $10,000 just to take him to court. You will be in court battling for months, so you will have to pay my fees. He will have to pay his fees. That directly comes out of your pocket. What kind of revenge feels better to you? The kind where you walk away and buy your dream house by yourself one day, or the kind where you just make him miserable? And I was like, you're right. I want the house one day. I don't want this anymore. She was like, take the money. You do not want that memories. You do not want any of that stuff tied to it. Take the money, walk away. You know, she was awesome. And so I just had to swallow my pride. And eventually he agreed. And the. So how the houses work with this kind of situation is that you go to your loan, your company, or let the people who manage the loan. You say, hey, I want to gate this person off the deed. And they say, okay, this is how much the house is worth. Here's how much it's raised in property value since then. Now, it's annoying because I put more money into it, and at this point, I'd spent like 10 grand on lawyer fees. So I was in the hole quite a bit. But I knew I was just. Just. I knew it was going to be messy. And so then they say, okay, here's the deal. We'll give you $40,000. And so what happens for him is that his monthly rate goes up. He pays like, let's say $200 extra a month. That goes into this. So they make more money off of him, but his rate stays the same and everything. So it's a. It's considered a loan buyout. And so I, like, my lawyer was like, best case scenario, and I was like, okay, cool. So I get the check, write my name off the deed, block him. Never talk to him again. I never talk again. Nope. We actually live 10 minutes away from each other. Never talk to him again. Never see him again. Never. Like, cut contact. He's gone to me now. The thing about the whole situation that was crazy is that. Well, there's a lot, but it's. Yeah, yeah, I think you got. There's only one thing. But the whole thing that was so crazy about it is that first off, like a. It taught me a lot. It taught me a lot about what signs to look for for pornography use. It also the thing that was the hardest for me about it and one of the biggest reasons I love your guys show so much. But I also was like, I really want to talk about this is the hardest thing for me about the whole incident was how women showed up for me. Which is sad because we, as women, we expect to support each other. But when I finally started telling people, I waited to tell everyone until we were done. Friend, because I just. I couldn't talk about it without getting emotional. I didn't want people's stupid advice. And so I will just share, if it's okay, some things that you should not say to your friend if you find out about this.

[Hannah]

I love asking guests, what's something that a friend or support system did that was good and what wasn't good? So, yeah, get into it.

[Sarah]

My bestie that I moved in with, she was amazing. If I could just carbon copy her and give her as a best friend to everyone, I would. Would. And I still believe that to this day.

[Molly]

Love her.

[Sarah]

I literally get choked up when I think about her. Talk about. I literally saw her last night. But I've never had a more loyal, better friend in my entire life. And so what she did throughout the whole process is she just really looked at it neutrally, and she never swayed my opinion. She always just listened to me and she always heard me out. And if I ever was, like, feeling hopeful about him or feeling negative about him or whatever, she was just like, like, girl, I support you. You just like, you deserve the best.

[Mackenzie]

Whatever.

[Sarah]

Like, if you're with him, great. If you're not. And she would always say to me, you're a smart woman. I trust your opinion. And I loved that because I think a lot of times when we go through a relationship turmoil, we look to our friends to give us reassurance on if we're making the right choice, if we're making the wrong choice. And she just put it back on me. Because if I say something like, oh, Jake sucks, and I can't believe he cheated on me and blah, blah, blah, and then my friend goes, yeah, Jake's the worst. And I'm like, well, he's also really nice, and he's blah, blah, blah. And, you know, because the truth of the matter is, is that the reason someone has inner conflict is you can see good and bad parts of people. Because people, I don't believe, for the most part, are inherently good or inherently bad. I think we all have, like, good parts, bad parts, disordered parts, coping parts. Like, we all have these different parts. And so at the end of the day, it's like, can you live with someone who, in layman's terms, is human? And can you live with those human parts? And so if you put the ownership back on your friend of like, hey, I love and support you, it's just whatever you think is best. And you avoid answering that, that's really good. Because if someone still has a lot of inner turmoil, that's a great time to go to a therapist. And we actually do the same thing in therapy. We don't say, like, dump him, he sucks. You know, like, we just are like, okay, well, here's some pros. Here's some. And we try to lead people, give

[Molly]

you the resources to help you think.

[Hannah]

Well, I.

[Molly]

About what?

[Sarah]

What?

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

And I always think about, especially in breakups or especially in dogfish situations, you lose so much control, and what that friend is doing is kind of still allowing you to have control.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

Rather than forcing you into one opinion or another. Like you said, you don't. He's not going to help himself unless he wants to do it. You're not going to be at peace until you get yourself there. Like, yeah, it makes sense to me,

[Sarah]

and in all honesty, too, if Jake would have gone to therapy and really, like, evaluated himself and done stuff like that, like, a lot of good things about him as a person. Like, obviously, I had a lot of conflict about my plan with him. And so it's one of those things where it's like, yeah, I. I always say I'd be a shitty therapist if I thought people couldn't change, you know? So that's a. A problem I have is giving people a lot of chances. And there's a lot of people out there like that who will give someone a lot of chances. But here's a couple things to think about as friends, but also just in general is I think people have to earn chances with you. It's not that they say they'll do things. It's like, what are their actions or, like, things they're going for with it.

[Molly]

Right.

[Hannah]

That's so good.

[Sarah]

And. And I say it as a therapist all the time. I'm like, I have a lot of clients that every week say they're going to do their homework, and I know they're not going to. And then I have clients who they come every week and they do their homework and they really try and they slip up. Sometimes. I'm way more hopeful for their future because I know that they're going to change, you know? Know. So there's a difference between someone saying they're invested and showing they're invested. And that's a big takeaway. But I'll tell you, the stuff that people said that really messed with me, even after I was in a solid place with it, they said, well, he must have not been getting something in his relationship to do all that. No.

[Molly]

Oh, my God.

[Hannah]

Like, how dare they?

[Sarah]

Yeah. And these are friends of mine, by the way. And they were saying it to me as a way of being like, well, he must have not been happy with you. Like, okay, why is that supposed to make me feel better? But also, secondly, like, it's not supportive. It wasn't about supportive.

[Hannah]

You didn't do anything wrong.

[Sarah]

Right. So that was one thing. Another thing was this idea of, well, I had a lot of friends who were mad at me that I didn't snoop on his phone, which, if you remember what we talked about earlier, is that he went to great lengths to delete everything, make sure that they weren't talking. Like, at the end of the day, if you're going to hide a secret life, it is not your partner's fault because they didn't snoop on you. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely right. And so I had a lot of people who tried to blame me, as if, like, I was too trusting or naive. And even still to this day, the guys that I date, when they find out the story, because it's kind of crazy, they're like, does that ruin your trust with other people? And I'm like, no. Because to be honest with you, the red flags that I noticed with that is Jake couldn't talk about his feelings. Jake also could not talk about heart issues. So his future, the, like, sex and intimacy. When I bring it up, he had really bad mommy issues. Like, him and his mom had terrible boundaries.

[Molly]

There were no boundaries.

[Sarah]

There were no boundaries. Right. He couldn't deal with confrontation. So people who struggle with porn often cannot deal with Confrontation. And they also deflect really heavily. They can't take accountability most of the time.

[Hannah]

Why is that?

[Sarah]

I. To be honest with you. Okay, well, so first off, intimacy, like, if you have an actual porn addiction and we're not talking, someone that's like, yeah, every day I watch porn because I have high testosterone, and I just need to, like, rub one out. Like, that's not who I'm talking about. Because you can use porn every day and not have a porn addiction.

[Hannah]

It's the people whose lives are revolving

[Sarah]

around it, destroyed by it. Right. It's. I always talk about what's your function. It's the same thing with an eating disorder. Like, you can work out every day and not have a compulsive or addictive relationship with exercise.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

And so really commonly with men who struggle with porn, they have obviously an issue with intimacy. So emotional connection, communication, things like that. They have an issue with talking or communicating about their feelings. And the reason why they say this is. Is because they say that people who have true porn addictions most of the time started watching porn at a very young age. That was developmentally incorrect for them. And so they've gone to the place where instead of talking about their emotions or processing it, they just watch porn. So, like, it's almost interesting. Yeah. So it's almost like, oh, I get sad. I watch porn. And then your brain eventually is like, I don't even recognize what it feels like to get sad anymore. I just know I crave porn. And so that's why he couldn't tell my therapist what he was feeling. They also say that men that struggle with porn oftentimes can't take accountability. And they also can't hold ownership over their things. Things. And a big reason that they say this is is because a lot of times that's their escape. That's their second world. That's their. All these other things. But they imagine themselves to be, like, for lack of a better term, the ruler of that. And that women are kind of beneath them in a lot of ways because porn is not usually like, very favorable towards women.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

And so this idea of basically being called out, especially by a woman, of like, hey, you're messing up. Get really defensive. Walls up, Right?

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

I don't know how to process that.

[Hannah]

It's. And is it. It sounds like it's probably subconscious. They're not actively like, oh, no, that I'm superior.

[Molly]

Yes.

[Sarah]

Most out that way. Most guys that have issues with porn are very timid, very quiet, kind of let other people Roll over them. But then if you have a partner that's calling them out, they're very defensive and like, well, I didn't say I didn't do that. Blah, blah, blah. Like, they just can't take accountability. A lot of the time I'm over generalizing. But this is common stuff that you see symptoms, right? And those are just signs to look for with a partner who struggles with that stuff. And here's the other thing, too. As a therapist, I've had clients who, their partners have struggled with real porn addiction. Not like, I've watched porn once and I have to go repent. And they have done incredible. Like, I'm not saying I've treated the partner exactly, because I'm not necessarily specialist. I work a lot with relationships, but not like that in particular. But there are partners who night and day, change, change, who have a great relationship. It's just one of those things where they have to really work at it. And so if you see your partner actively wanting to address it, going to therapy, talking to you, telling them you if they're triggered and like, hey, I watched porn, knowing that it'll probably disappoint you, knowing you're probably going to be bummed by it. If you guys work on your communication with that, I have a lot of hope for your relationship. And I also have a lot of hope for that person changing over time. Time. I just. The people who are like, I'm gonna pretend it's not a problem and I'm cured after the first second. And that's the other thing with Jake. He never came forward and told me all the girls. I had to guess and I had to look through his stuff. And I. I finally figured out there was about five. But he never was like, okay, here's a list of all the people. Here's what I've tried like.

[Hannah]

And then you found all those pictures.

[Sarah]

I don't even know who those guys are.

[Hannah]

Question. Does porn addiction and an affair go hand in hand most of the time or.

[Sarah]

Yeah, and they're usually like, I would say 90% of the time. I'm not sure specific statistics is some form of cheating. So it could be, let's say they're get a Snapchat and are sexting women. A really common one is that guys will make an online dating profile just to get pictures from women. Because a part of the thrill is getting the imagery from them. It's like they might not ever meet up with them, but it's getting a woman to think you're so sexually desirable. That she's willing to show you everything, right? Yeah, because that's a. Because that's really what porn is, is a control and power thing, right? Is like, I don't feel good about who I am as a person, but in this own little world, I'm the king. And so a lot of times men will have these big books of like, every picture a woman's ever sent them or sexed or thing like that, Even if they had no feelings for the woman. Because I. It's proof that I'm desirable. Just the same way as a lot of women will go to a bar and try to see how many guys will hit on them and then be like, oh, I had 20 guys hit on me. Like, I look so good. And it's not necessarily that they even want to cheat. It's just to feel powerful and attractive

[Molly]

because that's where your worth is and how you look.

[Sarah]

Right? And so with men, it's how much do they want to sleep with me? Whereas women, it's like, oh, do you guys find me attractive?

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

Right. And so, like, obviously they're very different, but it's kind of the same. Like, when I explain it to women, that's how I try to frame it is like. But there's a lot, There's a lot of men out there that are like, yeah, even if I feel crummy about my job, even if I feel crummy about who I'm as a person, if you want to sleep with me. Because if we think about what we push as society, to men, it's sex, money and power.

[Molly]

Yes.

[Sarah]

And so for men, it's like, okay, if I'm not powerful or if I don't have money, at least if a bunch of people want to sleep with me. And especially with today's society, like, I think it's getting harder and harder for a lot of people to convince you to, you know, send over inappropriate pictures, because what could happen? So, like, it's even more of like a, yes, I'm so attractive and desirable. This woman's gonna risk her job or her relationship with her husband to send this to me. Right? And so those are things to kind of watch out for of the. What you could look for of, like, what's happening. But like I said in my situation with my ex, if you have someone like that, I had a little thought of, like, what if this was his wake up call and he gets his life together and there's a part of me that was like, that would be awesome. But then there was another Part of me that was like, I would be so pissed because I went through hell, right?

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

And now it's good. Our old roommate.

[Hannah]

Welcome to the next girl.

[Sarah]

Our old roommate still lives with him, which I think is so weird. But he told me, and, like, I don't keep tabs on him. I don't want to know what's going on. But he'll just randomly text me and be like, hey, just to let you know, Jake's still disgusting. And I'm like, okay, please stop updating me. I literally haven't dated him in years. But okay, he's.

[Molly]

Goodbye.

[Sarah]

He's been consumed by it. He's lost multiple jobs by it. Now it's sad. He's lying to multiple women. I don't know why the roommate still lives there. And I also don't know how he puts up with that. I would feel too guilty, but he was like, there's at least 10 different girls he's lying to. And so it's just. Just so you guys know, like, a lot of times if you're worried, like, what if I leave and he ends up being awesome for someone else?

[Hannah]

Good for them, right?

[Sarah]

At the end of the day, oh,

[Molly]

my God, that's so real.

[Sarah]

It's so real. And I have. Honestly, I've never seen it. And all my years of a therapist, I have never seen at least a girl to a guy relationship. I've never seen her leave him because he was being shitty and him just being. Be like, wow, I really turned my life around.

[Hannah]

I know it happens, but you just haven't seen it.

[Sarah]

I just haven't seen it. It just.

[Hannah]

Usually dating potential, it seems to like the concept of just, oh, I hope that there's something different than what they are now. It's. We all have to just think of what they are now.

[Sarah]

Oh, that is what we have, Hannah.

[Hannah]

That's who they will be.

[Sarah]

That's like my whole business platform, besides the body image and food stuff, is this idea of stop falling in love with potential. Yeah. Because part of the reason my confidence wasn't that great when I was dating him, it's not only, like, he wouldn't touch me. And I thought that was, like, hard. But my confidence wasn't great because I was abandoning myself. So I was sending a big message to myself that I deserve to be like. Because I kept thinking about it and I was like, do I really deserve to be with someone who can't tell me about an addiction? Do I really deserve to be with someone who hides their whole life to Me, like, I'm a nice person. I work really hard. Like. Like, do I really deserve all this? You know? And there was a time where the answer was yes. And I look back at it and I'm like, dang, girl. Like, you'd rather. Like, I've been alone a lot since then. And I'm going to tell you right now, I have a cute house Now I design 100% to myself. I have a booming business.

[Molly]

Yes.

[Sarah]

Two adorable cats. I go out on dates all the time. And like, a lot of them are not true love, but a lot of them are fun stories or good connections because I. That's the thing. When I look back at this whole scenario, the thing I regret the most is how much time I invested into it. And I only stayed with him for six months after the whole thing happened. But it's still six months that I was like, I knew month one he wasn't gonna change.

[Molly]

Yeah, but it's that cost fallacy again, right?

[Mackenzie]

Oh, yes.

[Sarah]

And I never, like, does everybody hear that?

[Hannah]

Sarah's a professional therapist and still went through that.

[Sarah]

Still went through that. Right. And it's one of those things where I never blame myself for the stuff he had. I never am mad at myself that I didn't look through his phone. Like, that's what never blame myself. The only thing I hold on to a little bit, and I'm. I'm fine with it. Like, I'm not beating myself up over it, but the only thing I hold on to is I'm like, damn. He did not show a single action that would invoke change. And I still stayed, you know? So anyways, I have more questions.

[Hannah]

A few. I have like two big questions I do want to ask you. What are your thoughts on the ethics of porn after all of this?

[Sarah]

This. Oh, okay. So personally, I know there's like no way to regulate this, but I personally just wish that there was a way that men that are under the age of. Well, actually everyone that's under the age of 16 couldn't see porn.

[Hannah]

But anything developmental stages is where you

[Sarah]

think it's the biggest problem. This is the same thing with drinking and alcohol and smoking. If you start before you're 12, you're so much more than any other time because your neural receptors are developing and your brain grabs onto it and you are so much more likely to be addicted. Addicted. So those people who try alcohol when they're like 8 or 9 versus the people who try alcohol when they're 15, the 8 or 9 year olds we worry Way more about. Even if it was only like, one or two drinks, we worry a lot more about it. So I just wish there was a way that people could make sure. And maybe there is, and I'm just unaware, but, like, make sure their kids weren't exposed to pornography before they're developmentally ready. Because, like, that's how I feel at that point. After that, like, if you're an adult and you want to use it in your relationship or by yourself or whatever, I really don't have, like, that big of a deal in my future relationships. I don't want it to be a big part of our dynamic.

[Hannah]

That's so understandable.

[Sarah]

But as far as that goes, whenever I see kids use it, it is just so much harsher on how they view women, how they view themselves, how they view sex. It's just. It really messes with them just the same way as that. When young women are like eight or nine, dieting, they are way more likely to develop an eating disorder than one that's like 15. And so it's just the same thing is, like, it's. They're just so young and they get so hooked on that, like, high that you get from restricting or whatever it could be. And so it's just scary. So that's. That's how I feel about it ethically.

[Hannah]

Thank you for sharing that. And you definitely are not. I'm not considering you expert. Don't worry. Like, I think it's just so.

[Sarah]

So it's interesting experience.

[Hannah]

You've been through so much. And, hey, I hope he gets help.

[Sarah]

Me too.

[Hannah]

I love that you're here. Thank you for listening to.

[Molly]

And I love that you're dating. It seems like you're really enjoying it too.

[Sarah]

Oh, yeah. Honestly, that. That is the other thing I wanted to say is that, you know, that was the hardest thing I ever went through, for sure. But I will tell women out there. Well, and men, anyone, really. But I never thought I would get a house again. I never thought I would do all this stuff. And, like, the second I left him, my career skyrocketed. My house was great. I started dating awesome guys. Like I said, some of them were not like, oh, I'm in love.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

But treated me way better, right? And, like, I got great stories. I traveled. I traveled internationally for the first time. Like, I really leaned into my hobbies. I don't know. I. He was really holding me back. And I, you know, at the end of the day. Yeah, at the end of the day. We'd been together for so Long. I just didn't realize at what degree he was holding me back.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

But it's like, like I. Even if he. The whole porn thing and cheating thing didn't come out, I think I would have not grown as much as I did. And as a therapist, nothing makes me happier than when I can support someone through a hard breakup or when I can support someone through dating. Because it is the biggest time I see someone grow as a person. And so if you're scared to date or if you're scared to end a relationship because it's scary, of course, just know there's a whole team of people rooting for you, even if you don't want to talk to your friends. Your therapist is so excited to help you through this stage of life because my clients that put themselves in that vulnerable spot skyrocket. So just know growth is really hard. It's scary. It's all these things. But I never once regret my decision to leave. And I get confirmation, whether or not I want to hear about it, that I made the right choice. Constantly.

[Hannah]

Keep us posted.

[Sarah]

Yes, of course. Thank you so much for having me.

[Molly]

That's a lot.

[Mackenzie]

And where do we begin?

[Molly]

And do you remember the. The man that we had on our show a couple years ago and he was the cheater in his. He like, he was the dogfish. Talking about how his sex addiction. The sex addiction. And it reminded me of him a little bit.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah. Yeah, totally. I think it's fair. I mean, it's just an interesting concept, an addiction that leads you to cheating or even. Yeah. I mean the amount of porn that he was watching is like. I don't know. I guess every couple can define what cheating is for themselves. But to me, I'd be like, yeah, there's something up. It's just two things can be true. Like you can have empathy for their addiction and also hold them accountable and set a boundary. Am I speaking like a therapist? I think I just use therapy speak so well, listen.

[Molly]

But I like it.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah. So if. If you've ever experienced yourself or somebody else who's dealt with addiction to porn, I mean, I don't think we talk about it very much. I think it's almost like a punchline of a joke. It can be, you know, we're just like, oh, haha, you just like porn.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Mackenzie]

And it's more serious than that. This guy was not able to keep a job to act down.

[Molly]

And I want to talk about how we talk about feeling stupid in these situations. Like this is a long term relationship. We're talking 10 years, and he was cheating on her the whole time. And it's like, I feel so stupid that I didn't know you guys. This is a therapist. This is someone who is trained in this. And it's almost like, well, if a therapist can get dogfished, anybody can. Like, everybody still has their own own, you know, their own experiences. So don't think that you're stupid. Like, you could know a lot about the human psyche, and you could know a lot about signs and things to look for and still be dogfish, so you're never stupid.

[Mackenzie]

I think that's why it's so important to have your community around you, because you do have a different perspective on your own life than other people's lives. And yes, you know yourself better than anybody else. And it's important for us to develop our. Our understanding of our own femme tuition.

[Molly]

Yes.

[Mackenzie]

And yet we have limitations. And that's not a bad thing. That's a human thing. Like, I love that I'm a hopeless romantic. That's one of my favorite things about myself.

[Molly]

I love that about.

[Mackenzie]

Do I check in with my friends when I'm, like, falling in love with someone after half a second?

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah. And even doing this show, it still happens. Like, it's not that I, you know, I can say I can preach all I want, but at the end of

[Molly]

the day, we're all humans.

[Mackenzie]

We're all human. So, yeah, I think it was. Was great to hear her talk about that, but also interesting to hear how she kept it so to herself for so long because of that shame. And then hearing everything she said about her friends supporting her, saying things like, you're smart and I trust you, or just, you know, it's basically, whatever you decide, I support you.

[Molly]

Yeah. Like, instead of saying, oh, my God, you have to leave, like, right now, which so many of us probably want to do, and we want to hit our friends over the head and be like, girl, what are you doing? And until they feel that way, all they're hearing is, and then they feel unsupported. So the most you can do is just say, I'm here for you. And then, you know, I trust you. I think you're, you know, you're doing great. I'm here for whatever decision you make.

[Mackenzie]

I've also still been thinking about when she said, when you react, your friend has to process your reaction too.

[Sarah]

Uhhuh.

[Mackenzie]

So that just, like, applies to anything traumatic that you're sharing. Like, if you are sharing that you're diagnosed with something or somebody. Just anything that's hard that you're going through, it's important to, as a friend to like, stop and think about how you can support them before you react and make them have to comfort you.

[Molly]

Exactly.

[Mackenzie]

Can we talk about Oedipus and his relationship with his mother?

[Molly]

Okay, I was so. I was so blown away when she said this because I feel like this is like, who was the. Who was the serial killer? Was it psycho or

[Mackenzie]

somebody who had a thing with their mommy?

[Molly]

Yeah. And it was a serial killer. Oh, no, I gotta get.

[Mackenzie]

All right, weigh in people, in the comments if you can figure out who MacKenzie's talking about.

[Molly]

This was. Oh, yeah. Ed Gein.

[Mackenzie]

Ed Gein.

[Molly]

Yeah. Yeah, that's.

[Sarah]

That's.

[Molly]

I was like. I was like, no, it's not again. But no, it's totally Ed gain. He had an intense love hate relationship with his mother, but he also. I just think he was. I don't know. I think he loved her more than in like a weird way.

[Mackenzie]

Okay, well, I'll go down that rabbit hole after this. Before crime con, but this was kooky. And I do think. I mean, I. When she said that all of those images looked like his mom, I. I almost threw my mic across the floor. I didn't expect it.

[Molly]

That's dis. You're getting off to images of basically like anything that looks like your mom. And that's freaking weird.

[Mackenzie]

It's so weird. And also, I mean, look, he's a grown ass man. I hold him completely accountable. But I don't not also fault Ms. Linda over here for trying to sleep in bed with them and having no boundaries and. And surprising them. Like, obvious.

[Molly]

That is weird. When she was like, oh, let me sleep with you.

[Mackenzie]

Like, it does go to show. And I loved at the end when Sarah was talking about, you know, when I asked her about her relationship to porn now and the ethics of it, she was just like, your developmental stage as a kid is the. Basically I wrote down developmental stage plus porn equals.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Mackenzie]

And I think that goes to like parenting and whatever else you are influencing your poor son or daughter or anybody, like, it's gonna affect their relationships forever. The term mama's boy is not gonna be the same ever.

[Molly]

Never.

[Sarah]

I don't like, literally.

[Mackenzie]

Can you just imagine though, not only catching your partner cheating, but also uncovering this about them? Like, that is such a mind fuck.

[Molly]

Do you remember the episode where the guy cheated on his girl with the mom?

[Mackenzie]

If you are new to our show, I would go listen to the episode the Dogfish mom. Because it is generally one of the most bizarre. Okay, wait. What else I think we could go through? She already kind of did this. There were some signs of porn addiction early on that she, you know, how. Had no way of knowing that they were signs of that. But I think it's good to like, recognize them. The fact that he was very directionless and had no opinions was interesting. And also obsessed that all three of us are like bossy women who are like, that sounds awesome. A passive man. I can control. Yes, please. But you do have to have opinions. Like, you do at some point have to have something you stand for. And he was bad at talking about his emotions. He had never had a girlfriend.

[Molly]

That's very concerning a little bit. Like, not a lot, I guess.

[Mackenzie]

No, it doesn't have to be. I mean, he was in college. I definitely know a lot of people that didn't have serious. It's all of when people. When we talk about red flags, they're not deal breakers. They're just red flags.

[Molly]

They're just like, things pay attention to this and exactly, like, kind of, you know, find out more about that maybe. Baby.

[Mackenzie]

She said he was a terrible liar but great at hiding things. And that's different. He just really could not talk about emotions. He.

[Molly]

He has a weird relationship with the truth.

[Mackenzie]

Yep. So then a couple other oh, great things that she said that I just want to highlight as a therapist. She talked about what to do if your partner threatens self harm.

[Sarah]

Oh, yeah.

[Mackenzie]

Basically call their people, their friends and their family and hold your boundaries. Country.

[Molly]

Yep.

[Mackenzie]

And we say it. It's a. Even if they're serious, it's like you have to look out for yourself first. It is a form of manipulation, even if they don't mean it that way. And it just is the way it is. And then she talked about how she just didn't want to start over. She thought her family would say, we told you to marry religious and that she'd end up alone if she left. But then she got to a point that she was okay with that, which I was like, proud of her for. For.

[Molly]

And it's that sunk cost fallacy. I've already spent so much time with this person. Why would I end this now? And you kind of consider like, oh, I don't want to start over, which is really hard. A lot of people say they're like, I just don't want to start over. And I don't blame you because dating is hard and like, getting to know somebody and you gotta start over with this idea of getting married and having kids and all that stuff.

[Mackenzie]

And it's so scared to think about, oh, now that I've been through this, what is it going to change about my dating life, who I talk to, how I present myself? And she is just. She's so amazing. I really do feel like she said so many things that I wrote down. People have to earn second chances with you.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Mackenzie]

So good.

[Molly]

And another thing she said was that therapy doesn't work for everyone, which I held on to because it makes me wonder how many people are seeking therapy because they've been manipulated by someone or they. Because they've been dogfished. And then how many people are the dogfish that have sought therapy, therapy, and they were unable to find help? Like, do you know what? I wonder how many people have actually tried and not succeeded in therapy. That makes me curious too.

[Mackenzie]

I feel like there should be a initial. The same way that when you check into rehab, they do, like, a consultation that kind of points you in the direction of what therapy you should be doing instead of just, like, having to choose therapy ourselves.

[Molly]

Yeah.

[Mackenzie]

I wish there was, like, a place where you could go and blend, be like, can you lay out all the different forms of therapy for me and we can understand, like, which one actually makes sense to me? Like, should I do erp. Should I do cognitive behavioral therapy? Should I do group therapy? Should I do exposure therapy? Like, I feel like most people just think of talk therapy with a psychologist or psychiatry to get medication. And besides that, it takes a lot to kind of get into the more. More minutia of therapies and. Because there might just be a different path for you.

[Molly]

But I really do appreciate how she's looking positive now. Like, she's dating, she's having fun. And I think that's really cool. Like, she's really.

[Mackenzie]

She's so cool.

[Molly]

Yeah. I like her so much.

[Mackenzie]

I know, I know. And I was so grateful. She was so open to talking about everything. And I do want to acknowledge, just because I know that everyone is split on this and everybody has a very different response to this. And I do. Even I don't remember who. Somebody wrote us in Patreon. Pretty passionate. It seemed like somebody who worked very passionately in a. In a. In an effort for basically just anti porn and advocating for the negative effects of porn on humans. And I hear that. And I. I was just grateful for her conversation about the nuance because I totally. I don't think it's realistic to have a black and white perspective on it. And I think there are a lot of efforts to have more ethical porn, more queer porn, more creator driven porn. Obviously, we know because of the only fan Spimp episode that that doesn't always work the way you want it to. Yeah, but I just don't. I don't know. I mean, it's a huge conversation that I haven't researched enough to have a clear opinion on. I just. Realistically, we don't see a world where people don't seek this out. And it's the kind of thing that if you regulate it or shut it down, it's like then people are going to get it from creepier, weirder places. So I think I'm just saying that I know that that's a layer to this that we don't necessarily even need to talk about with this, because the point here is his addiction and its effect on Sarah. Yeah, but I'm open to that conversation. I just think it's interesting, honestly. And I know a lot of people have different opinions.

[Sarah]

I agree.

[Mackenzie]

Period.

[Molly]

Oh, man. Well, Sarah, we're so grateful for you sharing. Thank you. And you guys, if you have your own stories to share, please send them to us. We want to be an ear or a platform for you. This community has really proven to help so many people. Someone hears a story and they go, oh my gosh, me too. And those me too moments create that connection that helps people feel less alone. So email your story. Our email is investigate at the dating detection detectives podcast.com and you can email us or you can DM us on the socials at Dating Detectives Podcast and

[Mackenzie]

obviously go get your tickets to live shows. Chicago, Orlando, Tampa. And it's not too late if you want to try to come to Crimecon in Las Vegas. It's this upcoming weekend.

[Molly]

Come see us and squeeze our neck.

[Mackenzie]

I stopped by Molly's last night to pick up some merch. So we'll have merch there and. And other fun stuff.

[Molly]

It's going to be so amazing. Thank you guys again for listening. We love you so much. And as always, trust your femme tuition.