The Mile High Manipulator

Summary

The Dating Detectives - Episode Summary: "The Mile High Manipulator"

Release Date: May 12, 2025
Hosts: Mackenzie Fultz (Professional Private Investigator) & Hanna Anderson (Comedian)

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Introduction

In this emotionally charged episode of The Dating Detectives, hosts Mackenzie Fultz and Hanna Anderson delve into the harrowing story of Kayla, a listener who shares her tumultuous relationship with Marcus, a pilot whose charming facade ultimately concealed a web of deceit and betrayal.

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Kayla’s Story: From Ideal Romance to Devastating Discovery

[05:20] Kayla:
Kayla begins by recounting how she met Marcus on Bumble during the COVID-19 lockdown. Coming out of a difficult period after her ex passed away from testicular cancer and dealing with her mother's severe health issues, Kayla sought companionship through online dating.

[06:31] Mackenzie:
Mackenzie expresses sympathy, acknowledging the challenging circumstances that led Kayla to start dating again.

[09:17] Kayla:
Their first date was idyllic—playing cards under a backyard fire, sharing dreams of marriage and family, and enjoying each other's company. Marcus's respectful demeanor and supportive nature made Kayla feel deeply connected.

[15:56] Kayla:
As the relationship progressed, minor red flags began to surface. Marcus forgot Kayla’s birthday twice, excusing his forgetfulness as "first-year growing pains." Despite her attempts to address these issues, Kayla found herself holding onto the positive moments, believing in the potential of their relationship.

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Identifying the Red Flags

[20:58] Hannah:
Hanna discusses the importance of recognizing red flags early in relationships, emphasizing that cumulative minor issues can signal deeper problems.

[22:33] Kayla:
Kayla reflects on how Marcus’s continued forgetfulness and lack of genuine effort led her to send a breakup text after the second missed birthday:

"I'm done. I don't see where this is going." [21:29]

[25:49] Kayla:
Determined to understand Marcus’s sudden disappearance post-breakup, Kayla starts investigating his online presence. She discovers alarming information that reveals Marcus had a wife and an eight-month-old child—information he had meticulously hidden from her.

"He has a wife and kid. I'm close with the wife." [62:53]

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Unraveling the Deception

[30:32] Hannah:
Hanna highlights the manipulation involved in "ghosting" with calculated excuses, making it difficult for victims to trust their instincts.

[35:15] Kayla:
Kayla describes the moment she finds a stripper card under Marcus’s bed, which serves as the catalyst for her realization that something was terribly wrong.

[60:32] Hannah:
Hanna introduces the concept of "dogfish" relationships—where manipulative individuals lure victims into relationships under false pretenses.

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The Aftermath and Investigation

[61:13] Kayla:
Upon discovering Marcus’s deceit through Facebook posts and subsequent messages from his wife, Kayla reaches out to both the wife and Marcus's workplace. She documents all evidence of their relationship, including intimate photos and detailed accounts of Marcus’s behavior, aiming to hold him accountable.

[70:00] Kayla:
Kayla explains how Marcus managed to maintain multiple lives by subletting rooms and manipulating workplace systems to cover his tracks:

"He would pocket the cash and go, cancel a hotel that his boss paid for." [84:41]

[82:23] Kayla:
To ensure justice, Kayla files complaints with Marcus’s employer and the FAA, initiating formal investigations into his professional misconduct and personal deceit.

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Hosts’ Discussion and Insights

Red Flags to Watch For:

• Inconsistent Communication: Marcus’s pattern of sporadic communication with plausible excuses.
• Lack of Accountability: Repeated forgetfulness of important dates despite initial explanations.
• Hidden Lives: Discovering undisclosed relationships or family members, revealing deceit.

Importance of Trusting Intuition: Hanna emphasizes the necessity of trusting one’s "femtuition"—a blend of intuition and judgment—to navigate and identify unhealthy relationship dynamics.

Navigating Non-Traditional Relationships: While recognizing that long-distance and non-traditional relationships can work, the hosts underscore the importance of clear communication and transparency to prevent manipulation.

[93:14] Mackenzie:

"The sunk cost fallacy... you've put so much time into this."

[87:39] Hannah:

"I want that on a shirt." (Referring to Kayla’s assertion: "I don't care if you break my heart, but don't waste my time.")

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Conclusion and Takeaways

Kayla’s story serves as a poignant reminder of the complexities and potential dangers inherent in the modern dating landscape, especially within industries that facilitate secrecy and frequent travel, such as aviation.

Key Takeaways:

1. Recognize Early Red Flags: Pay attention to patterns of behavior rather than isolated incidents.
2. Prioritize Open Communication: Ensure clear and honest dialogue in relationships to foster trust.
3. Trust Your Instincts: If something feels off, it's crucial to investigate and seek support.
4. Seek Support Systems: Leveraging friends, family, and communities can provide strength and clarity during tumultuous times.

Notable Quotes:

• "I don't care if you break my heart, but don't waste my time." — Kayla [75:43]
• "Trust your femtuition." — Mackenzie [106:21]

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Final Thoughts

Mackenzie and Hanna commend Kayla for her courage in sharing such a personal and painful experience. They stress the importance of community support and open dialogue in combating deceit and manipulation in relationships. The episode not only sheds light on the intricate tactics of manipulators but also empowers listeners to recognize and act upon the red flags in their own dating lives.

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Stay Connected:
For more updates on Kayla’s ongoing investigation and additional resources on identifying manipulative behaviors in relationships, consider supporting The Dating Detectives on Patreon.

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“The Dating Detectives” is dedicated to helping individuals navigate the often treacherous waters of modern dating by uncovering the truth behind deceptive relationships.

Transcript

[Hannah]

The following program contains names, places and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following program is provided for entertainment purposes only, and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances. If you or a loved one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic violence hotline at 1-800-799-7-7-7233 for support.

[Mackenzie]

Happy dating, Detectives Monday.

[Hannah]

Hello, everybody. Hi, beautiful. How's everybody doing?

[Mackenzie]

You guys, Hannah has the cutest dog with her. She's. She's dog sitting. And this dog looks so human, it's adorable.

[Hannah]

His name is Carl. Shout out to Carl if there's a bark. That's Carl.

[Mackenzie]

Shout out for dogs with human names. Like, my dogs are Stuart, and then we had Ed. This one's Carl. Like, I love it so much.

[Hannah]

You also have Duchess.

[Mackenzie]

Right now we have Duchess and Jewel, but. Well, Jewel was a stripper name, we thought. But it's fine.

[Hannah]

They're. They're royal. Like, they're. There's a regalness to that which I really also like. Exactly. Carl is definitely the king of this castle. And he's really cute.

[Mackenzie]

His eyes say it. He's like, what the heck is going on?

[Hannah]

I held him up for the girls to see and he just stared at the camera. He's like, what's going on?

[Mackenzie]

So cute. He looks like he's potty trained, like, for the toilet. Like, he looks like he's toilet, like. That's how sophisticated he looks.

[Hannah]

Not to criticize him at all, but he's not.

[Kayla]

You leave that baby.

[Mackenzie]

He's struggling.

[Hannah]

He's been mostly good. He's been 99% good, except for like one or two poops in the house. And that's okay because he's stressed anyway. That's not why we're here. Let's do a separate dog podcast. I would love for this.

[Mackenzie]

I know, right? I love it. Anyways, hi. Happy Monday.

[Hannah]

Patreon's now going to be all about our doggos. If that's cool with everybody, we can have a dog tier. We did add a new tier. That was my transition into telling. Reminding everyone about Patreon. Tell the people about the Patreon update.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah. So the new. The new tier for Patreon, it's $9 a month. And if you pay for the $9 a month one, you get the exact same thing you get with the five dollar tier. The two Bonus episodes and the lives and the book club and all the things and the. The forum. But also, you get ad free listening experience. You're welcome.

[Hannah]

You're welcome. Message us if you have any trouble figuring it out. And reminder to create your accounts using your computer, because if you use your Apple app Store, if you have an iPhone, sometimes it, like, adds a fee.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah. Do the computer.

[Hannah]

Yeah. Ad free. $9. And then also, we don't have a date for the meeting yet, but our next book club book is decided. We are reading the Mother Next Door by Andrea Dunlo, who you may remember from a previous episode. She has a podcast, Andrea Dunlop, But.

[Mackenzie]

Nobody Should Believe Me podcast.

[Hannah]

Right. And she was a guest. She's fantastic. And she wrote this book, so I'm very, very excited. And maybe she'll come to book club. Who knows?

[Mackenzie]

And there's a lot more than, like, what she talks about on her podcast. And in the book, it expands. It's not just one. The topic. It's very. Yeah. Munchausen is very nuanced. There's so many more pieces to it than you realize. So that's going to be good. I'm excited.

[Hannah]

The Mother Next Door, on the book cover, it says medicine, deception, and Munchausen by Proxy.

[Mackenzie]

Wow. I'm excited to dig into that one anyway, so go read that one. That's going to be fun. So, yeah, new Patreon tier, which we're really excited about, because that means the podcast is growing even more. So thank you for our current Patreon and thank you for all your support and those that just listen. Thank you just for listening. We are just so grateful that you're here. So thank you today.

[Hannah]

It was amazing. And she's a listener, and just this.

[Mackenzie]

She's so nice. I like her. Yeah, she. You guys are really gonna love her. It's. It's not. It's not a fun. It's not a fun experience ever that they're on the show. But I think this one's gonna be triggering for a lot of people because a lot of people are gonna be like, oh, my God, no way. The same thing happened to me. I think a lot of you are going to relate to this.

[Hannah]

When she left, I was like, you know, Kayla, this is one of those stories that there's someone listening who's gonna be like, wait, that red flag is happening in my relationship right now. And I was ignoring it.

[Mackenzie]

Every single time there's someone else, and.

[Hannah]

That'S never your fault. But now that we are empowered with hearing these stories, sometimes Maybe it can push us to trust our femtuition, and I hope that it can, But I loved meeting her and hearing this story, and it's also kind of evolving. She's still in the middle of it in a way, so.

[Mackenzie]

And that's another benefit to the Patreon, too, is that we're able to post more updates there on the Patreon. So make sure that if you're not a Patreon, or it might be a good idea if you like those updates, if you're someone like me who just can't stop and need the closure, sometimes the better on the Patreon.

[Hannah]

Well, shall we give it over to Kayla?

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, I want you guys to meet her. Let's. Let's get going. You guys, this is. This is Kayla. Hi, Kayla.

[Kayla]

Hi.

[Mackenzie]

We're so excited you're here. Let's get into it. Kayla, take us away. We're ready to hear your story.

[Kayla]

Boy, you know, I had what I thought was a really great relationship. It was one of those kind of unconventional and that I met him during lockdown. A little bit tricky, but not unheard of. There's other people that date during COVID but, boy, I. I just thought the world of him, and we fell in love. And it was almost like this special, proud relationship that I had. We're both working on each other, we're both going after what we want career wise and were supporting each other. It just felt like it was meant to be that I was supposed to meet him.

[Hannah]

And how did you meet him?

[Kayla]

Bumble. I love Bumble. So, yeah, it was my first dive into online dating. Coming out of kind of a hard situation with my ex. He did pass away from complications due to testicular cancer.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, I'm so sorry.

[Kayla]

Appreciate that. Yeah. And then my mom almost died right before we met, so I was staying and sleeping at the hospital.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, you poor thing. Oh, my gosh.

[Kayla]

Tending to her needs. And at the time, they really didn't know if she was gonna make it. So I was in the icu. That's kind of what propelled me to start online dating because I really valued companionship, and I saw it so much more importance after. After almost losing my mom. And so I started looking on there, going through all the profiles. And when I stumbled on his. I wasn't on many dates then. I had talked to a few guys, but I wasn't going out every week. I was trying to be kind of selective, but when I spoke to him, he was super respectful, but the right amount of effort. Like, we were Talking about, like, what do you do? And I was interested because his picture showed him in the cockpit. And I'm like, oh, that's awesome. You're a pilot. And I was like, oh, that's interesting. Tell me more before. You know, we're talking every day, exchanging numbers, then you're texting every day. And he's like, oh, good morning. How was your day? That's starts a week and a half, two weeks into it, which was nice. And then we decided that we should go on a date in person. And it was like, okay for our work schedules. And Covid, I'll meet you halfway. Because he lived like, 45 minutes. You know, it's like an hour drive or a little bit with traffic. And he was like, oh, I'm off work one night. And he goes, I can make it out if you're. You're free. And he told me he actually could come all the way out to me instead of meeting in the middle. And I was like, I think I could make it work. I normally like to plan it a little bit farther out. But his job was very unique in that he was on call. His schedule was like, they call him, and he goes to work to catch the flight. So I was like, okay, I'll jump to it. So I quickly. I don't know how I did this. You guys. Looking back now, I wouldn't put this much effort into the first day. I do things so much different now. But at the time, I'm like, I got the juicer out. I'm gonna make homemade old fashioned whisk with, like, bullet whiskey. Nice, top grade whiskey. Because he drinks.

[Mackenzie]

I like a good old fashioned. Okay.

[Kayla]

And he's like, if you make me one, I will never leave you. So I made the old fashions. And here's another thing. I would have never invited a guy over to my house, but it was like, here's the problem. Nothing was open. There was.

[Hannah]

It was a different time.

[Mackenzie]

Covid was a different time. Yeah, I was like, different time.

[Kayla]

I've got my attack dog. You know, my parents are home. Even though it's a bigger house, if I scream loud enough and I have my taser, things can happen.

[Hannah]

You took me won't die.

[Mackenzie]

It'll be fine. No one's gonna die.

[Kayla]

Oh, yeah. And when he showed up, I knew I'm okay because my big black Labrador was. He's not really like, the super all the way sweet. He was a rescue. So he's like, a little all the way sweet.

[Mackenzie]

I love that description. He's not all the way sweet.

[Kayla]

Neither are we. He was like my guard dog. He's. And he did. He circled him and sniffed his feet. So we go in the backyard. I've got a nice fire going. We were playing cards, but I just remember we just got on really well and I just felt really good to not only hit it off with somebody, but. But we had similar things. He wanted to get married someday and we talked about that and he wanted to eventually have a family someday, but he's really concentrated on his career, just like me. So, yeah, it was a great first date. And he left. You know, we texted after. It was like one o' clock as he was driving home, and he was like, I wish I had bet to kiss you. I just was so shy and didn't want to be so forward. It was cute. I'm like, I wish you would have, but I'm glad you didn't because that shows you're a gentleman. Like, he.

[Hannah]

Oh, I'm in the. I'm into this. I'm locked in.

[Kayla]

And he was tall and he was, like, kind of like stocky. It was like he had muscle. Kind of like a retired football player type of body, you know? Like, it's not necessarily, oh, yeah, I'm going to the gym, but it's like, you are going to the gym. It's there.

[Hannah]

It's just cuddle.

[Kayla]

Oh, he gave the best hugs. I'm like, I'm done. As I said, if I give someone a hug and I feel that. That roller coaster, like, whoop in your throat, the butterfly kind of homey feel combination, I'm like, I'm gonna be done. Because that's what he. It ended up being. I'm like, oh. And I told myself, you need to be careful going forward because this, this is pretty strong. So I tried my best and I think I did a good job.

[Hannah]

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[Kayla]

So we mainly saw each other in the first beginning. It was pretty consistent. We saw each other like once a month and sometimes a couple times a month. But it usually was because he would get off work really soon, he'd want to come over here and we'd go out or he would plan a day where he'd have it off. So as we were doing that, it was really good. We would have days where we'd go to Korean barbecue, we would go to his house and hang out, have a date, go out to dinner, or some days we would go on his motorcycle, go for a scenic drive and then sometimes we'd go on a motorcycle and visit his friends. I finally met his friends, I want to say, probably six months or so into the relationship. And when I did meet his friends, we're doing more dates together, but he's showing me his friends, his roommates that I'd get along with them. And even they would joke, yeah, we have to make an appointment to see this man. We love him, but we literally have to make an appointment with him. I do remember that after that I grew really close to him when the date started becoming more like, hey, I want you to meet my best friend. Come to the bar he owns. So he did a date night there. And you know when you're getting to know their friends and the roommate, like, people close to him, and it was great chemistry. Still, I'm taking him to set up dinner with, meeting my parents, and I just felt really close to him. Like, this guy, you know, he's showing me his life, and that's a step in the right direction. And of course, after that, it definitely progressed into one night after he grabbed my hand underneath the table as I was playing with his friends on a board game. I just felt so, like, oh, my gosh, I love this band. Like, I hadn't said it yet, but I just. He grabbed my hand, was like, you.

[Mackenzie]

Knew you loved him, right?

[Kayla]

He did it so, like, hey, are you okay? Do you want to leave? Without even saying anything. Like, the hand grab was just so effortless. And then it started to rain, and he's like, I'll get you an Uber if you don't want to get wet. Because we were on his motorcycle. Like, I don't care. So then go home.

[Hannah]

You're like, I'm in love. The rain can't even touch me.

[Mackenzie]

Right.

[Kayla]

I know, right?

[Hannah]

Had you had any. Had you had any conversation about being exclusive or were you still just kind of figuring out?

[Kayla]

He actually brought it up that night when I was there. He was the one that was like, hey, I've got an open closet if you want to move in to this place. What? And, yeah, but the way he put it was just like, if you. If you're thinking about it. So I said, I appreciate you letting me know that you'd like me to at least have my stuff there. Kind of insinuating, here's your closet if you ever feel like wanting to maybe move in. It was like, he put it in feeling it out kind of way, and.

[Hannah]

He'S thinking about it. He's like saying, like, just so you know, I'm thinking maybe down the road this will happen.

[Kayla]

Yeah, right? Just putting it out there. I really. I enjoyed getting to know him and his lifestyle. And pretty soon, when he heard that I was interested not only in his job, but also flight attending because I was still building my business, and I had always been interested in flight attending. So I was like, this could be a really cool side thing for me. He was like, well, hey, why don't I take you up and see what it's about? And it was like, almost a date. It wasn't like a job. The first Time I went up, it was just him and me, and we just flew up there. I think he had to, like, transport something, so there was nobody that was part of the flight. And I just remember all we did was talk about the stars, joked around how he didn't know the constellations, and it was just awesome. I tried not to get overly like, oh, my God, I'm so, so, so in love with this man. Look at his job. Like, get a big. Like, it's hard not to, right? He's got this job that is pretty cool.

[Hannah]

It's pretty hot.

[Mackenzie]

Pretty high.

[Kayla]

For sure.

[Mackenzie]

It is. It really. How do you deny your captain?

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Kayla]

I was like, hello.

[Mackenzie]

You're so funny.

[Kayla]

Yeah, it's super attractive.

[Hannah]

And I get it.

[Kayla]

I just was trying to, like, here I am, trying to protect myself as much as possible. But I knew that this really impressed me. And I like being impressed by somebody. Keeps it interesting to be like, I admire you and what you do.

[Hannah]

Yeah. You want to be challenged. You want to be in awe of them.

[Kayla]

And he.

[Hannah]

And you want them to feel that way about you.

[Kayla]

Sure. And he would say the same things about me. And he would also ask about my business when I was putting it and growing it. He'd be like, oh, let me show you. Show me the new construction. Because he loved to build things. So it was just cool that here I am growing, and he's super supportive while he was trying to get to where he wanted in his career.

[Hannah]

So, you know, red flags, basically.

[Kayla]

Not at that point, but not at that point. The pattern of seeing the red flags had not until a year and a half went by, probably because we didn't spend every day. It probably would have showed up sooner. I mean, the first big red flag was a really. The first year, what had happened. And I had kind of put it to the side because it was like first year growing pains, being in a relationship kind of mentality. He forgot my birthday the first year. And then to add to it, the first kind of shitty first year he had his birthday, and I made a point to remember it, baked him a pie, made him a homemade BlackBerry pie, and said, hey, you know, why don't we get together for your birthday? And he was like, oh, I'm sorry I didn't tell you, but I'm with the boys. They wanted to take me. And he went, I think it was a trip out to. I can't even remember. But it was hurtful that he didn't tell me. But I'm like, okay. First year growing pains. I told him, hey, that's not cool. Please tell me. I want to do stuff together on your birthday. Same with me. But when he forgot the first birthday, I kind of played it off. I was irritated, but I'm like, he, he's getting used to remembering dates. I don't know, looking back. But then when it was coming up the two year mark, that's when he forgot my birthday again. And that was twice. That was it. Yeah. And I even sent you the text. The first one was in January. I just was like. He's like, you okay? Cause I just stopped talking to him. I'm just like, asshole.

[Hannah]

So I just like, on your birthday, he would like, check in and be like, why are you mad? Why aren't you being mad? Because you were like, why are you mad, bro? You're like, it's the same day every year, buddy.

[Mackenzie]

Never changed.

[Hannah]

Pretty easy.

[Kayla]

So I said, you know what? I get that it's hard, hard to remember for some people, important dates. And I said, I just don't, I don't feel good about this. And it took me a month to send him the okay, I'm done text. Like it was.

[Hannah]

And that was after the first birthday he forgot or the second I broke.

[Kayla]

Up with him the second birthday. So it was like right after, like days after. I just didn't send the text, but I was there. I'm like, you can't forget my birthday a second time. That, that's making me look foolish.

[Mackenzie]

So, no, you would think the first time you'd be like, oh, I gotta remember that next year.

[Kayla]

I'm so not a materialistic person. And here my mind frame was like, look, I'm just not like it. So of course I let it slide the first time, but the second time I'm like, okay, I don't ask for much. This is the least you could do, right? I'm like, come on, I'm sorry. I can't do this anymore. Even he was apologetic, like, I feel like an I feel horrible, yada yada.

[Hannah]

Exactly.

[Kayla]

I just was like, no, I'm done. And I told him, I, I, I'm. I don't see where this is going. If you don't even prioritize me, your.

[Mackenzie]

Future ain't bright with me, fellas.

[Kayla]

So that was a big one. And boy, had I wished I had ended it there because. Oh, no Facebook again. Oh, no Facebook again.

[Hannah]

As we listen to Kayla's story, communication seems to be a big theme that Marcus doesn't nail. He's not nailing it so far in my Humble opinion. I love the app Paired, which is a sponsor of this episode. I think it could have come in handy for him, although I wonder if he would have even done it because he's probably a dogfish. Anyway, Paired is an app that helps you connect with your partner, and I use it with my boyfriend. And it's so lovely and really fun and also just a quick, fun way to have conversations that might be hard to have otherwise. Basically, you and your partner download the app, you pair it together, and every day, Paired gives you personalized questions, quizzes, and games to stay connected, deepen your conversations, and have fun, too. You don't have to do all of them. You can do just one. You could. You can do a lot of them. There was a period where I was doing a lot and I was like, excuse me, you have a lot of quizzes. You haven't answered Jonathan, and he would do them. Don't worry. He's wonderful. But I was having too much fun with it. It really is a safe space to have open and honest discussions because you don't see your partner's answers until you answer yourself. So you're not really faking it. You're not pretending. It's just genuine connection. It's not like you're spilling your secrets, but it's more like, how do you feel about your finances the past week? Like, one being bad, five being good. And you can answer honestly. And then the next question might be like, do you feel like you and your partner are on the same page about your finances right now? And, yeah, your answer might. You might not have been thinking about that. But then when you sit and think about it, you're like, you know what? We probably have been going out to eat a little more than we should this past month. And then that conversation comes organically in the quiz. There's also stuff about intimacy. There's stuff about your memory. Memories. I love one prompt that said, upload a picture where you were proud of your partner. And it was so fun to go through my phone back towards the beginning of our relationship and find, like, one of the first moments that I was like, wow. And get to relive that. That feeling. So there's a lot of variations on them, and it's time daily to connect, which is so, so hard. Honestly, I talk about this all the time. I don't know how y' all do it with kids. I find it hard just in my lifestyle of a la creative. And that's nothing like when I complain. I know I shouldn't. So Paired I can imagine is amazing if you are just juggling a crazy life and you need a little bit of a reminder to focus on each other. Whether you're just a few dates in or have been together a long time. Find the time to connect with your partner and nourish your relationship. Start strengthening your relationship in an easy, fun way. And it only takes five minutes a day. So head to paired.comdingdetectives to get a seven day free trial and 25% off if you sign up for a subscription. Just head to p a I-R-E-D.com datingdetectives to sign up today.

[Kayla]

I don't check Facebook. It wasn't something I did a lot at the time. I was just getting into it for my business. But I chose to look his profile up just to see if he is doing something while we just broke it off. What is he doing if he maybe posts something. So of course he po. There's a post not by him, but by his good friend, best friend about him going to a band meat. This was literally like, like weeks after I broke it off with them. And I picked up my phone because I saw him on that. It was like an ad to come visit his best friend's bar and watch live music with his face right on it. I go, I text him, I go, oh, so you have time to remember to meet your band, but you don't have time to be remembering the most important person who gave your heart to you question mark. Because what do you mean you just out of the blue broke up with me?

[Hannah]

I said out of the blue.

[Mackenzie]

Out of the blue. Boy, that was.

[Kayla]

That was yellow and pink.

[Hannah]

It was timed very clearly on the.

[Kayla]

Calendar on your birthday because I sent him a text that we were broken off. Like, boy, you wouldn't even take my phone call because you're working all the time. Of course I'm gonna send a breakup text. I'm not.

[Hannah]

I think that's a good point. A breakup text is okay if they won't answer a call or see you or call you on your birthday.

[Kayla]

Exactly right? I'm like, I'm getting has done. But here he says that. I said, well, it had been three weeks and I haven't heard from you. You haven't fought for me. He didn't say anything after the breakup text. He basically had said like something to the effect of I get it. I understand. It was very minimal. So when I did this, of course the floodgates opened because I was like, you had three weeks to Fight for me. I wanted to work on this relationship. You just bowed out of this and here you are doing things that you say you don't have time for. He's like, well, you kind of out of nowhere blindsided me and didn't give me a chance. I was just like, oh, gosh, you had two chances.

[Mackenzie]

Both birthdays, both of them. You messed up, fella.

[Kayla]

The way he apologized was like, it was like the nice guy. But like, I, I'm working a lot. I get where you mean. If you want to break up with me, I totally understand. But I really love you and I'll promise to, you know, I am whenever I have time. I definitely make a point to come out with you and let you know I'm trying everything I can, that kind of thing. Looking back, it was just, he was good at talking, good at not being aggressive. He was the right amount of apologizing and then accounting for his behavior, reciting like, I agree with you why I did X, Y and Z. And then giving me enough breadcrumbs to be like, okay. He's saying he wants to work on it to give him a chance. And that was my decision and I'm the idiot. So I back, I basically had broke back to him. I said, okay, if you're willing to work on this, I'm willing to give it a chance again and reconcile. So that pattern got better. And then within, I want to say six months, he, he, you did like radio silence again, where a couple days, I didn't hear from him. Sometimes it, you know, periodically. A month, it would be like one week. And I'm like, what the hell? We're not doing this. If you go a week without giving me a check in text wise, I'm going to think there's something wrong.

[Hannah]

Yeah, that's tough. I wouldn't be cool with that.

[Kayla]

A lot of times he would say, well, because he flew across the country. So he would say, okay, my international carrier wasn't working. And then another excuse he used for these absences of communication was he had come back from, I think it was London and they sold a jet overseas. And he said he lost his phone so he had to have it shipped back from the airport he lost it from. So it was like he really thought of what to say in regards to.

[Hannah]

It wasn't just ghosting. It was like, hey, I lost my carrier. I have a legitimate excuse that varies.

[Kayla]

Yes.

[Hannah]

Yeah, that's frustrating because I know I would be the same way. I'd be like, okay, yeah.

[Kayla]

But yeah, there is Some. There's definitely some red flags to this, but when you're with somebody that has kind of like a, a unique career schedule wise, who's always on call, you try to be like, okay, I don't work that job. I guess it's crazy like that. I mean, I started doing flight attending with him. I could see really, really hectic.

[Hannah]

When you say you were flight attending with him, was that happening a lot? Were you getting paid or were you just kind of helping him out?

[Kayla]

I was getting paid, but it wasn't a ton of money. And I knew that being a flight attendant, unless you're commercial contract, you're not going to get paid the type of benefits and hourly wage I was paid through him. He was the lead captain, kind of the head guy in charge when nobody owner wise was there. So he just paid me the hourly wage out of pocket. And I thought that was kind of strange. But being that I was new to flight attending and when I went online about corporate VIP flight attending, it's kind of a different world. So I couldn't find online a real definitive answer. They did say sometimes the pilot took over for the owner for payment and different legal stuff. And I saw that he would sign for things if the owner isn't there. So, yeah, I was interested in it before and here I had a guy that was like, sure, you know, there's no certification in this. Only if you're in commercial. Do they really require you to have a lot of stuff? I was like, show me the ropes. And he was like, oh, my gosh, you're so good at this. You've already kind of got the acumen with how I do my job.

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Kayla]

I was like, hey, customer service is customer service. But I just loved it.

[Hannah]

It's also a nice way to spend time with him and to like, yeah, verify. Like, I feel like if I was going to him with work, it would be easier to trust his excuses because you might meet his co workers. You see his schedule, you're like, yeah, absolutely. I get what his life looks like.

[Kayla]

It feels like you're. You're getting to know that person in a different way. And that's what I did by watching him work. Boy was attractive once again, just to be watching him do what he's been doing for so long. He was a good instructor, like a teacher that way to his co workers.

[Hannah]

And would he introduce you as his girlfriend? Was it known?

[Kayla]

We definitely played the, we're just co workers for the professional part. I didn't feel comfortable being like, I'm the girlfriend.

[Hannah]

Yeah, I get that. Yeah.

[Kayla]

It was just one of those things like this. I didn't know how long it would be at that time that I'd be doing it. So I didn't want to be like, yeah, this is who I am. Identify that.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kayla]

But, yeah, in hindsight, it probably would have. Would have maybe helped. So, yeah, there's a lot of things that I probably should have tapped in on. But, boy, when you're. And love want to believe it, you're in it that far. We've had conversations into what we want together. What kind of house would you buy? What kind of area would you like to live in if we do start a family, what does that look like? The beginning talks of that. So in some ways, our relationship was perfect. But then there were just these little moments where he would forget something, something big like my birthday or I wouldn't hear from him for a few days. So it started coming to a head. A year after I broke up with him, there were days that he wouldn't text me back. And it was always brought up in a way. He'd be like, hey, are you okay? What's going on? And it was always explained away because of work stuff. Whether he was working, he was really tired, he can't call, which is true certain moments up in the sky a lot. So all the excuses one can give why they can't call or text for a couple days. And I was starting to get a bit concerned, but not enough to walk away. And one thing that always in the back of my head that made me question, but he was so good at explaining it away was that I found a stripper card underneath the bed when I was over at his place. And it was kind of crumpled up, like it had dust on it. Who knows how long it had been there, but it was like, what the heck?

[Hannah]

And, you know a stripper card, like in Vegas when you walk down the street and you see, like, cards of.

[Mackenzie]

We call them baseball trading cards.

[Hannah]

Baseball cards. That kind of. Okay, great.

[Kayla]

Yeah, just accept explaining that person's services. And I took that in. I'm like, what the heck? And I had pocket that. And I'm like, okay, I'm gonna think how I'm gonna play this. I was thinking of, like, looking up the name. And before I could even investigate the girl and stuff, when I saw him the next time I was outside, we had gone to a bar for a date. And he said, look, I gotta tell you something. I. And I, looking back, I don't know if he knew I knew or what? But he goes, okay, I have to tell you something. I rented out my room because I haven't been home a lot because I've been working so much. I subletted my room to a friend of mine that is a girl. And I was looking at him. I just remember going, okay. I was kind of speechless and just being like, okay, I would be, too. I don't know how to go from here. And so I was so shocked because I just remember grabbing him and just being. I don't like that at all. You know, I found that card under the bed, so I know she's a woman.

[Hannah]

Was the friend happening? Was that the friend?

[Kayla]

I don't like that. I told him that this is concerning. I mean, I know I said, I'm glad you told me, but still, this isn't. This isn't okay. I go. I grabbed his collar of his plaid shirt and I said, marcus, I am choosing right now to trust you that that is what happened. But this in no way means that I have to trust you going forward. I trust you right now. But this. This isn't good.

[Mackenzie]

I'm just letting you know, fellas. Not good for you, fella.

[Kayla]

I.

[Hannah]

Well, I. Interesting that he got ahead of it. Like, he obviously knew. He could sense. He maybe knew he found it, but he was like, he probably found it.

[Kayla]

So, yeah, that was another red flag. But I'm invested in this now, so it's like you almost want to work on it the more time you're with somebody.

[Hannah]

Yeah. You're. You also feel like you're failing somehow if it doesn't work when you really want it.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

So it's like, yeah, I have to keep trying. I can't just walk away.

[Kayla]

Like, there's something of worth that you need to stick up for yourself. You need to address the problem. But sometimes you feel like you need to. To give that person a chance. And those chances were running. Yeah. And I think I was more shocked at the time. I know there's going to be people that are like, hell, no. I would have walked away from them then. I totally agree with you, and I probably should have, but I was so in love with him. And I think it was just like, oh, my God, I found this wonderful man that I love so deeply. So deeply that. And touching my belly going, oh, my God, it's gonna be so amazing to have a baby one day and a woman my age. It's one of those things that are important. And I discussed that with him. Like, please don't hurt me. I'm at a certain age, I want a child. So if you're not in this, I remember telling him in his office, I said, look, this was probably like the three year mark. And I was like, you need to figure out if what you want to do because I only have a certain amount of time as a woman. You have till you're 90 to spit out kids. I don't, I don't. And he's like, oh, I never hurt you. You know, like I would never do that. So, yeah, sorry.

[Hannah]

No, don't be sorry.

[Mackenzie]

You girl, you take your time. This episode is sponsored by Better help you guys. I know sometimes there can be a stigma behind mental health and therapy, but the societal views on that have evolved throughout the years. Okay, you don't have to go through something necessarily particularly traumatic or triggering to seek therapy. So I'm someone who, even though I have sought therapy for trauma things that I didn't even necessarily realize were traumatic for me, mental health awareness is growing. So even if you're someone like me who has anxiety or you just need tools and resources to help manage those, those thoughts and feelings, whatever's going on, there's progress to be made. And did you know 26% of Americans who participated in a recent study survey said that they have avoided seeking mental health support due to fear of judgment. So if I did that, I'd still be a hot mess out here all willy nilly not knowing what to do with it. Like I said, get the tools and resources that are available to you. When you hesitate to get help, it doesn't just affect you, it impacts families and workplaces and your entire community. And it's Mental Health Awareness month. So I would like to encourage everyone to take care of your well being and break the stigma. The world is better when people are healthy and happy. I love Better help. I've been using Better Help for several years and several different times. I have been able to change my therapist whenever I want to. They make it really easy. BetterHelp is fully online, also making therapy affordable and convenient. And Better help serves over 5 million people worldwide. We are all better with help. Visit betterhelp.com TDD to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp. H-E-L-P.com TDD.

[Kayla]

So after breaking up and still putting through it for that year after. So we're getting towards the three year mark. Things had not really shifted, but it almost became like, okay, it's not so bad. It's usually like a Couple days it wasn't so, so terrible that, that I felt like, okay, at least it's not a week, you know, it's more like just a couple days that he would go radio silent. And like I said, he had a good excuse for those. But there wasn't anything like me finding a stripper card under his bed or that kind of thing. It was more like less time going to his place. It was more meeting him because he was really busy. That last year was more him coming to my place or me going to his work. So we'd either do a job together or I just would meet him and give him lunch and we would talk. But it was really good moments that. Boy, when you have those great moments. I almost kept them to myself. They were so special. Like I didn't even want to tell the people around me because I was just like, this is my little jewel to keep to like make me smile later. You know that the cool parts of relationship, it's not just about this, the sex or what dates you have. It's like I can talk to this person, I feel myself around this person. I can joke with him like he's my, like, almost like he's like my best friend. I told him that's the best and we can do work together and we work great together. It just was so seamless. Like t, you know, being with his friends, with his people seamless.

[Hannah]

I fit in and that's huge. I. And those are the moments that make you stay when they forget your birthday because you're like, there's so much more.

[Kayla]

Hoping I'm getting that across because as. As naive I was because I hadn't been in a lot of relationships. I admit that there was so much good moments that yeah, those things propel you forward through.

[Hannah]

Yes.

[Kayla]

Moments where as a woman you should have been like, no, fast forward to the four year mark. There wasn't a change in better communication wise, but it also wasn't worse. Like it was pretty much the same, but at least he, it wasn't doing like a week away. Like he didn't do that. But then around the four year mark, there was a time where he just totally dipped for another week again during that time. And I was scared. I thought at that point I thought he was hurt something had happened. He has a job that may, you know, you hear in the news a lot. There's pain, crashes, he rides a motorcycle. There's that as well. I just was worried things can happen.

[Hannah]

And are you, you're messaging him. I imagine you're texting him like, hey, just let me know you're okay.

[Kayla]

Yeah. And I'm like, right. And when he did come back, I'm like, what the hell? I was so scared when he finally did check it. He's like, oh, I know. I'm sorry. He tried to explain it away at the time that he said he was mourning the loss of a family that took him in. And it was like the father figure when he moved out to his area and it was the anniversary of his death. And he showed me a picture of him at the gravestone. And like, he just said, I was having a really rough time. I'm sorry I didn't open up. I'm really bad about this. When something really hurts me like this, I kind of just shut down. So I was like, yeah, but you need to open up with me. I thought you were hurt somewhere or worse. Yeah. Please don't do this again. I can't do this again. He's like, I know, I know. Breadcrumbs again. Like, I know. Yeah, I don't want to do that. He's like, I get that I screwed up. I totally apologize. And I was taking less trips with him, flight attending, because I had a lot going on here. And that was like the good part of the job. I could take it when I could, but I felt like a part of him was holding back. There was something guarded then. Like when I would lay in bed with them, sometimes it would feel like he's holding back conversation. Or when he would get ready to get going for work, it was almost like he had to detach a little bit. He wasn't as touchy feely after this. Very touchy feely. Like he had to get into work mode is what I thought at the time. So that was in the back of my head always. And it's like, how do you deal with somebody that has those kind of like, whoa, don't press me. But you do want to press it. It's a fine line to walk. And trying to be like, can I ask? Enough to not push him away. So I tried to toe you end.

[Hannah]

Up putting your needs way on the back, right?

[Kayla]

Yep. Right. And we needed to really be looking at houses together at that point. It was always, I'm so busy, you know, trying to get to this point to be a co owner of this aviation company. It was just always something. I'm having my. My good friend who's a realtor look into it. So he. We would talk about features we wanted together. And he was gonna tell his Real estate friend and then get back to me, that kind of stuff. So, yeah, looking back, you're very right. Yeah. My needs of needing that reassurance and meeting more of a commitment were going by the wayside, so.

[Hannah]

But you said earlier the breadcrumbing thing, like saying that his real estate friend is looking into it is giving you just enough reassurance to stay and be on board.

[Kayla]

It started to take a toll, but because it was so routine, I think I was just going along with it because I thought by having the serious conversations, it was at least addressing those points, he was confirming them. We just needed to put it into action and make commitment towards that. But it was always me having to have that conversation. What does that look like? What do we need to do? And it never progressed to anything of action. It was always me bringing it up. And that last year was a lot of me meeting him more so not at his place. He would find time to come out here, but our dates were more meeting him near his work. So a lot of times his boss would get him a hotel room so that he could sleep when he came back from work. That way he could make it back to the airport in time because his apartment was pretty far. So just to keep his employee pilot close by to the airport so he could call him. So I would meet him and it would be like a weekend. Sometimes we, if we were lucky, we got to spend sometimes two days together. That was rare. But usually it was one day so he would get enough time off, It'd be a 12 hour thing before he would be back up in the plane. So it was a lot of meeting in hotel, going to dinners nearby and walking around, convenience exploring.

[Mackenzie]

Very convenient, right?

[Kayla]

Very convenient for him. But I was trying to be accommodating and being like, you know, this is your career. But those things weighing heavily on me was that I knew, I mean, deep down I knew that the commitment wasn't there. I was talking to my folks about it. They were asking me how the conversations were going, what was he saying and what I'm going to do. And the last year I really wanted to make this work, but I did have a feeling that this could go wrong. He could just want to walk away and run. I felt that avoidant part of him. So I try to protect myself by preparing myself of that happening. Leading up to the point where things, all of a sudden, the bottom of our relationship dropped. It was six months past the four year mark. I had just seen him. We had had our last date together. I drove out to see him at a hotel, spent. It was an overnight one. I remember bringing up the conversation about getting married, how I realistically want it to happen soon. Another one of those conversations, just normal, like, hey, do you want something to eat? We got something to eat. Watching tv, talking about dinosaurs. Like, it was just like the funny, quirky things you do talk about and laugh about after you have kind of a story, stressful conversation. And after that date, I went home and I didn't hear from him. And I had already texted him after we had been together and had our date night. He was texting me at least a little bit after that, but not by much. And then it stopped for a couple days. And that's weird. Three day, four day. Okay, I don't like this. I'm like, what? What? Okay. Then the curse words start. You know, first you're like, okay, what's going on?

[Hannah]

What's going on? And then you're like, hey, what the fuck?

[Kayla]

What's going on? Like, dude, what's up? I need to know what's going on here. The fifth day, I'm fully cursing. What the f are you doing? Please get back to me when you get this. I don't understand this. And then the next day, it's the sixth day. I'm like, this is ridiculous. I think I followed it up with like, I'm gonna try to reach out to your roommate to see if he's heard from you. I don't understand what's going on. Another one was like, I don't know if your phone has malfunctioned and blocked my number. I don't know. I was just throwing stuff out. I'm like, please, for the love of God, just. Just get back to me. It's scaring me. And nothing, nothing more. Nothing. And I'm like, he's hurt. It's been a week. Like, what is going on, man? I'm super scared now. I'm gonna be calling hospitals. So the seventh day, I started to freak out. I started calling him, and I remember it ringing, ringing, ringing like it normally. It'll ring, ring, ring, ring, ring to voicemail. Then I called him with my house number, thinking, okay, what if this phone is messed up somehow? Because I was reading online, like, what. What could go wrong on an Android phone? Because he had an Android.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, no.

[Kayla]

Yeah. So I was like, could they possibly malfunction and somehow block?

[Hannah]

But he still find a way to get in.

[Kayla]

Yeah, but your mind is going. Like, if he wanted to, he would.

[Mackenzie]

But you're not thinking, no.

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Kayla]

I would think he's dead somewhere or not working. Like it's. That's happened too.

[Hannah]

I would fully think he's.

[Kayla]

Yeah, that happens too. The phones don't get recovered. A lot of times there's an accident or what have you. I. I'm spiraling. I'm trying everything. So I go and I say, hey, Mom, I don't know what's going on with his phone. You're texting him. Do you mind if I just text him? Like, hey, this is me. I'm on my mom's phone. You need to figure this out and get back to me. I already called two hospitals, and they didn't say they had anybody by his name at that point. So I sent off that text with my mom's cell phone. Hey, this is me. I'm trying. I don't know what's up with our phones. I don't know what's going on. Please get back to me. Somebody get back to me. If this is a family member reading this, get back to me. Like, anybody. I went to bed and I remember thinking, oh, my God. I don't know if he's hurt. I don't know if he could possibly just be totally avoiding me. I don't know what's going on. I'm going through all the scenarios, like, he could be dead. He could be injured in the hospital.

[Mackenzie]

He better be dead by this point or else I'm going to.

[Hannah]

Oh, I was, but I was more.

[Kayla]

Like, just scared and like, I don't know what to do. Like, desperate and thinking, of course. Call his job next. That's what I was thinking. Like, right. I didn't want to embarrass him by calling his work and making a big, you know, if it was nothing. I was really like, okay, I gotta do it. So I decided I was gonna do it that following days and call his work and be like, okay, so you make some waves. You love him. You gotta do it.

[Hannah]

It's worth it. If you find out.

[Kayla]

You just gotta. You gotta find out. You have to at least see if he's alive or dead or being an ass. And all I can remember is I was laying on my stomach, buried into my pillow. My head was there in bed. Mom knocks on my door of my.

[Hannah]

Room.

[Kayla]

And she goes. She goes, kayla, I need you to look at something. You had sent that text. I think he's breaking up with you. Oh, and I was half asleep.

[Mackenzie]

I don't like it.

[Kayla]

I didn't hear fully what she said.

[Hannah]

All I heard was, like, delirious.

[Kayla]

I was like, oh, I remember being so sad as I jumped out of bed. And I don't even remember how I got to the other side of the room to say, oh, thanks, Mom. You know, this look of, like, total shock on my mom's face. She hands me her phone. I look down at it. First of all, I read the text. As it starts off, doesn't sound like him. It starts off like a co worker talking to another co worker, like he was held hostage. And this is what they told him to say. Didn't sound like him. So that was really confusing. He was like, oh, I'm so sorry. I've been awol. I had the gist of it was that he said he, you know, had a lot going on. He had to move. All of a sudden he had family issues come up.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, come on, stop.

[Kayla]

He realized that basically he couldn't do this relationship anymore, that he cared about me. There was nothing I did that I. That he'll still care about me forever.

[Hannah]

And that's basically.

[Kayla]

Yeah. And I'm sitting there like four and a half years. It doesn't even sound like him. Like, he would say, yeah, baby, and beautiful. And like, the way he introduced the text wasn't like him usually would, you know, lead up to going right into that. So messed up. Just the vernacular was strange. It's like, this is weird. Okay. So I'm just shocked. Then the sadness. I just look at my mom and I just was like, what? Just crying? Like, I go, this doesn't even. I'm so sorry. And so I said, please call me. I texted him on my mom's phone. Nothing. I called him on my mom's phone. Went right to voicemail. So he ended up probably blocking me. If it goes right to voicemail, that's a big hint. So I grab my phone and I text him and call him on that again. That went right to voicemail. He blocked me. At that point, I went to pick up my dad's cell phone because I don't know why in my brain I'm like, get a new phone. So I grabbed my dad's cell phone. I was just about. And I just caught myself like, what are you doing? I am not going to do this. Girl, stop. I put my dad's cell phone down. I'm like, this is it. We're done. I am not going to beg him. And so I take on this information. And during this time, I am, weirdly enough, I was sad when I found out, crying. But there was more at the time, anger to Offset the deep sadness. And I, you know, immediately call on my best friend, and she's like, oh, I hate men. She was like, let's go. Whenever you feel ready, let's go drive by his apartment.

[Hannah]

Let's go to his house.

[Kayla]

Let's go see what.

[Hannah]

What happened is that.

[Kayla]

And it just. It sucked. It was like every day you realize more was being taken from you. Every moment you had together was questionable now. Yeah. It was just kind of like, where did it go? And that first month or two was still hanging on to that 1%, hope of being like, maybe things will work out in the future. You know how, like, you have that. Like, it was very minimal, literally 1%. Most of it was just anger. But more time went by. I was getting more like, I'm gonna investigate this. Like, this can't. This is where the tide turned over. Like, okay, I've spent enough time trying to be sad about this. So I started writing out. I had heard my friend bring up the fact that she thought it was shady too, and she gave me some good advice. She's like, look, we need to start. Let me look him up. I know you're in still kind of a careful place. Let me look it up and see what I can find. At least just online and post him on a Facebook group. The. The, you know, are they. You know, are they. Are they not dating, you know, cheating type Facebook groups?

[Hannah]

Anybody that doesn't know there are Facebook groups, There are different ones in different locations where you can post a photo of someone and just be like, anybody else.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

Or red flags. Yeah. It's like, oh, I just am going on a date with this person, and I want to make sure they didn't kill their ex wife. Just early things. So he got posted.

[Kayla]

So first he got posted on my city version. Then I think it was a couple weeks went by. Crickets. So I didn't know what to make of that. But then I started to think about it more as another week went by. So I went and I searched his city for that particular group on Facebook and posted him there, just thinking, well, that might be a little bit more accurate. So I just put a purse, like a photo that he had sent me, and then a brief thing like, got ghosted after four and a half years. Don't know.

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Kayla]

What happened? So I had posted it, and I didn't expect to hear my phone dinging, but I do remember when I woke up the next day, I. I could hear my notifications on my phone going, okay, ding, ding, ding.

[Mackenzie]

And my stomach Is in my butt.

[Kayla]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was sound asleep that day, too. So I try to wake up and I go grab my phone. And, yeah, I was just, like, looking at it. And at first it said Facebook. You know, like, Facebook? No, like. Like, a friend got a cold me. But there were a lot of them, and that's unusual. Like, not my birthday or anything.

[Hannah]

Yeah. You said you don't even go on Facebook.

[Kayla]

I know. Rarely. Yeah. But I opened the messages, and I went to that post that I had posted. Sure enough, there were. There were a mixture. There were some first came in that were like, what? I can't believe this. That's crazy kind of mentality. Then the ones that really cinched it was when my gut went down. The first one I read was like, lady going, I recognized him. I call bs. They're questioning me if I was real. This one lady. So I got a feeling like, you know, she probably knows him. And so I was like, whatever. And then the next one above that was, I went to his wedding. The next post was something to the effect of he's in the hospital ICU after a crash.

[Mackenzie]

What?

[Kayla]

He has a wife and kid. I'm close with the wife. Basically DM me if you need her name.

[Hannah]

Oh, my God.

[Kayla]

Just fell. Didn't know. Like, literally was a blur. When that fell through. I. I can't even tell you what I did after that. I think I. I think I yelled out, what? Like, what am I reading? I picked up my phone automatically, called my best friend, told her. What I discovered, literally, was like, he has a wife and kid. He has a wife and kid. I didn't sign up for this.

[Mackenzie]

How old is the kid?

[Kayla]

How old is the kid? He's around eight months. In one of the photos, he's around. He's less than a year. Less than a year.

[Hannah]

Oh, my goodness.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, my God.

[Kayla]

I felt so many different things. I felt disgusted, I felt betrayed. I felt anger. It's like a wound getting reopened again. I finally felt like I could at least get on with the normal day and not feel like it's slapping me in the face. And then here we are opening that wound up again and letting it and.

[Hannah]

Sting it and adding.

[Kayla]

And. And I feel.

[Hannah]

Changing your whole perspective.

[Kayla]

Yeah. It's not even about me at this point. Like, I can't even be sad about me because I'm like. Like, I could have been her, just the roles reversed. That's where my mind went like, what? Like, how am I gonna do this? I had my best friend kind of.

[Mackenzie]

Root with me, my heart, and just.

[Kayla]

Be like, what a SC that is? Hell no. Whatever you want me to do, we'll do it. I'll pack the car, we'll drive, whatever. She went right online. And she went into investigation mode even further on the Facebook, FBI. After finding out who, you know, her. Her name, and it was not that hard, at least same last name. And once we found the wife's Facebook page, I started putting together a document with all the evidence of our relationship, because I kn. I wanted to tell her, but I wanted to make sure she was going to believe me. I planned how to write up everything, and I. I forwarded it to poor Molly. She probably was like, wow, this is a lot more detailed because it was like a police report. I wanted her to believe me. No, that's good, though, because I needed her.

[Hannah]

Yeah, I get that.

[Kayla]

To read it and be hurt. You're gonna be so devastated. And like, no, this girl's lying. I knew that ahead of time. But I just knew if I wrote enough things, like a partner would. The things that only a partner would know, and I have a really good memory, and I keep everything. So I just put myself in that position. But it was more that. That I tried to channel the anger I felt into something more, you know, that I could use. I wrote it all out. I put in dates, times I knew he was in the hospital, how he snores, what his bad habits are, like, fine. Details that he would never tell anybody else stuff and a time. And I included pictures, screenshots of all his. I want to be with you for the rest of my life. I love you. Yeah, I mean, there was, like, 52 screenshots I sent her, and unfortunately, I did include. Because if I was in her position, what I tried to put my head on is that for me to really think, no BS on a girl coming forward like this, I need to see intimate photos. And that's what I. In videos. Like, you know, it's just what it is. Yeah. So I unfortunately had to send that to her. And then I thought to myself, as I wrote out the plan previous to sending that message to her, what if she ignores the message because we're not friends on Facebook? It goes to your message receipts. You don't always check those here. I'm, like, researching now because I'm not a Facebook person. So I'm going, like, a deep dive into how can I make sure she gets this? I thought, okay, not ideal, but it's the only thing I got. I'll send a copy Because I know his mom is a lawyer. I'm just gonna copy and say, this was sent to wife, her name. This is just a copy of the letter because that's what it was. So that you know you have the right to know as well. So that I. Why I did that. Yes, it looks petty, but hear me out.

[Hannah]

No, it doesn't. I don't think it does. I think it's. You get the mama involved. And.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, sorry. She's like, it is what it is. Asari's attire.

[Kayla]

Right? It's an attempt to see if, one, it's to make sure that she at least lets the wife know if she hasn't read her messages, to check her messages. Number two, to possibly. Not that I would know or that it would happen. Maybe she would kick him in the butt and really give them, oh, you know, a mama's talking to. I just wanted him to be held accountable with my family.

[Hannah]

You knew his mom.

[Kayla]

I didn't. I had been asking and asking. I even have many texts going, okay, is there a reason I should know why I haven't met your parents? You've come up with a couple different reasons. Now, when we've gotten close to scheduling, that it's always, well, I never figured to really set up a date with my folks because I'm always busy with work. So I sent it to the wife, waited like 20 minutes, sent it to the mom, and shortly after that, the wife messaged me back. And sure enough, she's like, oh, my gosh, I'm shaking. She didn't know what to say. She was like, are you sure? Like, I don't know what that I'm like, yeah, I'm sure. It was with him. She just couldn't believe. And she goes, I believe you, but I just can't. Like, I'm like, take your time. I've had a couple of days to process. You need. And that's what I told her.

[Hannah]

And she, you're the best.

[Kayla]

If I was in her position, I would have been like, what do I do? So I just told her, look, I get that this is a lot. I don't want to pile on you. I'm here for you. Woman to woman. I mean, that was like the basic thing. Whatever question you want to ask me, I'm here. I'm an open book. I just wanted her to really know that I was serious. But I'm not in any way trying to be like, let's destroy a marriage or, you know, any kind of, like.

[Hannah]

What you would think you would want to an outsider.

[Kayla]

I also had found. Luckily I didn't have her last name. I found his roommate and his older roommate. Right. One of the roommates at the house.

[Hannah]

Oh, not the woman that subletted. Okay.

[Kayla]

No, this was another roommate that I got along with there. So I was able to find her. At least. I couldn't find the other roommate. When I found her, I let her know what had happened. I'm like, hey, you know, I. I was the cool chick. I don't know if you remember me, but this is what happened with Marcus and I. And I just wanted to see what you think and whether you knew. Did he ever talk about another person throughout that whole time that he was living?

[Hannah]

I also am curious. The timeline. Like he's living with you with roommates and then at what point did he get married?

[Kayla]

And then from the timeline I could get to, I think was probably months, six months after I broke up with them. That first, like after the two years and I broke it off with him. I think he had already moved out of that place because that's where we stopped going to his apartment.

[Hannah]

That's when you started going to the hotel.

[Kayla]

It was more my place or the hotels or to the airport. Yeah.

[Hannah]

And he told his roommates, I'm not with her anymore. I'm. See, I have a new girlfriend. I'm getting engaged.

[Kayla]

I couldn't. Yeah, she said, I didn't know anything. It sounds like he didn't talk about the other woman at all either. She goes, I had no idea it was just you. So I don't know. He was good at keeping his mouth trap closed. I don't know how he got away with that. Unless she never went over there too. She might have been limited on info too at the time. And then also I will say after sending it to the mother here, within a couple hours of sending it to the mom, he blocks me because I can't see his picture anymore. Wow.

[Hannah]

We need to talk about the fact that he has an eight month old. We haven't gotten into this. So where were you when his child was born?

[Kayla]

I. I'm pretty sure he was talking to me around the time. I can't get this precise day she gave birth without like really going into a deep dive. I know the approximate, like the weeks or the month and. Yeah, yeah, yeah, he was texting.

[Hannah]

You were together every day.

[Kayla]

Same with his wedding day. His wedding day. I sent you a screenshot when he had his wedding on late 2023. It was November 2023. He got married. He had disappeared. Act right for that week. And he came back. He was talking to me up until the wedding and then dipped out. And then when he came back, he's like, oh, I'm sorry. I had a. It was the anniversary of the dead relative that we talked about.

[Hannah]

That was already. I was like, BS excuse, no grief ghosting.

[Kayla]

When I saw that. When I saw approximately what the date was for their wedding. And then I went back into my text and saw that, I'm like, oh, no, sir. You're vindictive. If you're having to lie about a dead relative. That's so far.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, my God.

[Hannah]

But he. He does that because. What are you gonna be a monster who's like. Like, no, you're not.

[Mackenzie]

Right.

[Hannah]

Like, that's a hard thing to come back to.

[Kayla]

Right? It's the ability to say that and know that the other person is not going to be mad. Yeah. It definitely was to his advantage. So that was crazy. It gets crazier now, thinking, keep going, keep going.

[Hannah]

I need to know everything.

[Kayla]

I mean, it just was every day. It was new information. So that was a fun day. Getting blocked by him, hearing how distraught the wife is. I'm distraught with her. And then I go to bed. The next day, there's more information. The wife, she messages me. She's like, look, I didn't want to say this right away. Oh, boy. I went, oh, no. I read that sentence. She goes. Back in December, when you said he originally ghosted you, that was because I found you on his phone and I confronted him with it, and based on your messages, knew it was something serious, not like a casual fling. Well, he couldn't deny it. So what did he do? He basically came to her and said, please don't call her. It was not a relationship. She knew about you. Hence I would know about the wife and still engage with him. Like, trying to put the blame on me somehow. Oh, you want to get me pissed quick. I was there. On top of that, he was like, I was really lonely. I'm sorry. And she said.

[Hannah]

And then that makes her feel guilty.

[Kayla]

She said she regrets that she didn't call me. She believed him. She said, and that's a good.

[Hannah]

It's a good argument for making that call.

[Kayla]

I go, you believed your husband. Don't apologize to me. I forgave him for a lot of.

[Hannah]

Things because he's good at it, and he's a mastermind.

[Kayla]

It was just. It was just the worst. It's just every day. And so that was like, whoa, that makes so much Sense didn't want to keep the love letter in his pants or keep the love card that I.

[Mackenzie]

Gave him because of course not.

[Kayla]

He's got. I found out he was with her only like six months prior to meeting me. So they were in the beginning stages. He was like, let me pop on bumble now that I've got one chick. Cemented pops on Bumble and goes fishing for another side piece. And I was it this guy. That's what the trial.

[Hannah]

I lived that. That you were talking so much about a future. And he was like, yes, I want to have kids. Yeah, I think maybe I'll have to. And in the back of his mind he's like, well, I already have one, so yeah, maybe I'll have to. My heart is breaking for you rotten.

[Kayla]

Oh, it broke in half seeing her photo with. With her family. And I just scrolled her Instagram before she took some of the photos down. It was everything I pictured to have with them. And I told her that I go, so eerie to see your photos. It was a lot of things that we had talked about doing. I mean, the motorcycle rides together. He bought her a motorcycle. Like, he's in her little gift and baby time. Buying a house, that was gut wrenching. It was like seeing myself in that position, but that's not me. And being older, that's what the biggest thing I told him not to. Please don't like. I don't care if you break my heart don't waste my time. This is the very definition.

[Hannah]

Oh, I want that on a shirt.

[Mackenzie]

I don't care if you break my heart.

[Hannah]

And I hate when people say they, oh, I didn't want to break up with you because I didn't want to hurt you. It's like you're wasting my time.

[Mackenzie]

That's worse for a woman.

[Kayla]

Like, I get it if you can do this because a guy, you've got plenty of time to procreate. Women don't. Women don't. It's just.

[Hannah]

And you made that so clear that it was a priority to you, I think.

[Kayla]

But that's how I know it was a good guy act. The respect, the, the feeling of safety with him. It was such an act. If you're capable of carry. I. I told the wife he had so many avenues to leave. To leave. He had the perfect fantasy life. He had a wife, a baby, the house he always talked about, and a girlfriend that he can supplement all his sexual needs for. And here I'm thinking I'm setting a life with them. Like, it's Such a degree of betrayal. So I, I'm just so hurt at this point. Some of the information that I got later. So he had that motorcycle accident, right, that was mentioned on the post I had asked about, like, do you know this man? And someone had posted, he's in the icu. And so the wife posted a little bit about his situation for the friends and stuff to know and where the hospital is and whatnot. So I, I just was, I didn't know what to believe. It was just so much at that point. Sometimes I was like, I got a handle on all of this and, and then some days it was like so much information I questioned stuff like, is this really. Yep. Is this really true? I felt like I needed to know. So I just called the hospital and spoke to the ICU nurse and just was like, is he accepting visitors? And she's like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, he's, he's out of surgery now. So it was like, okay, thanks, and hung up. And so I at least got confirmation that it was real and it wasn't like in my head or some made up situation. So yeah, he had a real significant car crash on his motorcycle. So that happens. But the next thing, it's not something that I'm like, great to acknowledge, but I need people to understand to some degree, you know, when the major thing that turned into, okay, I'm going to hold his ass accountable was when I found out it was very low risk. I will say I'm very lucky with that. Very low risk. But I had gone for my end of the relationship. You know, you periodically get your pap smears and in that. And so when I did that, I was positive for hpv. Low risk. I'm lucky. I didn't get anything. No symptoms whatsoever. It was just a little blotch on my cervix and she's like, that's biopsy. So when I heard that, I was like, that's it. You're affecting my safety when someone does that, safety wise. Like, if you affect my health and safety that way, like you're taking your.

[Mackenzie]

Gain a whole different level of being a dick.

[Kayla]

And I just know what colossal, like over time, you keep having those, you might not be able to have kids. So I was livid. I know. Like, and that's why the plan of coming up with how to hold him accountable, I wrote it out and I was like, let's think about what can really hurt a person in a way that's effectual while I worked with them. So I know he did things That I didn't feel was right and questionable on the job. And it had to do with times, a lot of times with me, things he admitted by text about his job. And one of the situations was there were times I felt uncomfortable with having sex with him on the plane.

[Mackenzie]

Only.

[Kayla]

Only because he's a person of authority. Right. But it's not okay. Even with a co pilot. You're away from the controls. You're not there to assist. So there were times I felt like he's so. But he's been in it at the time. I explained it like he's super knowledgeable. He's been doing this since he was 16.

[Hannah]

He's so like, it's like a bathroom break.

[Kayla]

And I looked it up and it is a precedent on there. They have taken pilot's license away for doing sexual acts in. In the plane. You're not legal.

[Hannah]

No cocks in the cockpit.

[Kayla]

Right. Like, you know, there is precedent. So I took that and put that. Here I am. I just wrote a draft for the wife and I copied it to the mom here. I'm making a new. To send to. For legal purposes, to send a complaint for his.

[Hannah]

I think that's good.

[Kayla]

His agency, through the faa. So for safety, helping all of the.

[Hannah]

Passengers he flies with to not put them at risk.

[Kayla]

And let's just say I padded it with four other things that could have piqued their interest. In case that one really didn't. I included about four other things that could.

[Hannah]

Did they respond to you?

[Kayla]

It's in. It's in the process. It's sent to the department. You know, bureaucratic stuff. It takes a while, so I don't expect, you know. But it is in the process of being looked at. And then according to online, if they deem it so, then they do an investigation where they interview Kayla.

[Hannah]

I'm gonna need some updates.

[Kayla]

Oh, it's coming. Yeah, I have a feeling it won't be. And. And I also sent a similar complaint, but a little bit more like co worker feel to his HR department stating all of this, saying how I wasn't comfortable with him paying me out of pocket. Like I never. Yeah, they probably don't even know that signed for anything. Knowing that the boss knew about it. It was always him and he was the boss. But still, like, there's a little bit of me feeling like, who knows? That's not on the upper and upper. They do sometimes do that, but only sometimes from what I hear. So I included that as well as he admitted to me via text that he Would pocket the cash when he would go to the hotel and. And cancel a hotel that his boss paid for. So. His boss.

[Hannah]

Okay, so that's bad.

[Kayla]

Reserve a hotel room, right?

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Kayla]

If I couldn't make it or if he couldn't make it, he would just like sleep in his car or his work. If he had like a quick flight and just needed a nap, he would pocket the cash and go in person cancel. And they would give him cash for the cancellation.

[Hannah]

Goodness gracious.

[Kayla]

Usually I thought they charged back to the original like credit card payment.

[Hannah]

He's a good talker.

[Kayla]

I. For sure. But he texted me.

[Hannah]

This is wild.

[Kayla]

So I sent that. Being like, you can do what you will. But he's pretty much admitting to me that he's stealing money from the company, especially his boss.

[Hannah]

I. I am like so sad for you because this is ongoing and yeah, I'm. But I'm so glad that you're telling us now because.

[Kayla]

Oh, yeah, it'll fully develop. Develop. Yeah, it will develop.

[Hannah]

And you're such a, like, well adjusted, kind person who obviously didn't deserve this. I hope.

[Mackenzie]

And it sucks that you still feel like that. You still have to feel the. Like you can tell. Like you got choked up. Like, you can tell. Like it still sucks.

[Kayla]

Yeah.

[Mackenzie]

It still hurts. I'm so not fair.

[Hannah]

You are gonna get so much better stuff. I just know better is coming for you.

[Kayla]

I really do appreciate that. I need that. Yeah, it's hard. Yeah. It's a dark. I wouldn't wish this on the worst person I know because it's just like nobody. Nobody wins here. I may be hurt, but she's. And he doesn't even realize he's so hurting himself. You know, it's just a betrayal upon betrayal.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, completely.

[Kayla]

Yeah. I, you know, I had to stop looking on Facebook because it just would remind me of the situation and tempt me too much to go down the investigation rabbit hole. Which, you know, doesn't really serve me any good now. I'm just gonna.

[Hannah]

That's everybody that listens to us. I think we are all sleuths in that way. And I think it's a good reminder to check in. Of course, sometimes we want answers, but sometimes it's like, don't just is this.

[Kayla]

Serving me if it's unhealthy. But yeah, it's still developing right now because it basically just happened. Like I literally just found out about all of this this mid March and.

[Hannah]

Your story is going to help. Somebody else is in a relationship right now. They're gonna Think about red flags differently because of you. So thank you, Kayla, so much.

[Mackenzie]

I'm so proud of you for. For sharing, especially knowing that you still feel right. Like, knowing that you're still feeling it like, you're in it.

[Kayla]

Like, I don't want to love them anymore. Yeah, there's always going to be that part. Yeah.

[Hannah]

Hate him.

[Kayla]

Yeah.

[Mackenzie]

I'm not a fan.

[Hannah]

Is a nightmare, man. And, I mean, I guess he deserves an Oscar for his performance. Like, what the hell?

[Kayla]

My mom. My mom is like, nobody fools me. I fool them.

[Hannah]

I love your mom.

[Kayla]

Like, she's like, no. She's like, I like them, too. She's like, this stings me more. I'm like, I loved a mom. That's how I feel, too. But, yeah. Yeah.

[Hannah]

Well, send everybody that you match with on Bumble to Mackenzie. Let's run a background check on these guys.

[Kayla]

I know, right?

[Mackenzie]

That's what I'm saying.

[Kayla]

Truth finder, whatever type of, you know, background check you want to do, highly support it. It is not doing too much. Doing too much is, like, doing, like, too much of a deep dive. But if you're just starting out in a relationship, you don't know them. You. They don't know me. Do it. Most guys that are good guys, like, people.

[Hannah]

They have nothing to hide.

[Kayla]

Wouldn't care. Would laugh it off. Find me if you can find something cool. I'm boring. Yeah, there's something to that. Do not question as a partner wanting to find out. And there's tools out there.

[Hannah]

You're fine. Tuition baby, right? You're not crazy.

[Kayla]

Absolutely. Google his number. Google his name. Look on social media. It's all there.

[Hannah]

Kayla, thank you so, so much. I love you, and I'm so happy that you're out of it.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah. We're gonna need updates, for sure.

[Kayla]

Thank you. I love you guys.

[Mackenzie]

Hello? Mile high lying liar pants.

[Hannah]

Mile high. I know. I was writing down, like, mile high mind, which maybe we don't have to use that as a title, but I was, like, coming up with all my captain BS pilot puns, but not. Not good. Poor Kayla.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, I. She is so sweet. Didn't we tell you guys? She's so sweet. Like, she just has a heart of gold. Like, I know. I hate that this happened to her.

[Hannah]

Well, let's debrief. We do a dogfish debrief at the end of these stories for anyone who's new to kind of talk about elements of the story that we can learn from. And there's a lot here. I mean, based on what you just said, she's so sweet. The first thing I wrote down is, like, holding onto the beautiful parts of yourself that they didn't deserve, like, going back to the first date. She kept saying, like, I put too much effort in. I put too much effort in. And it's like, you didn't put too much effort in for the right person. They just suck.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, that you were putting in too much effort, like, at the time, because you want to do this for this person, but it's only when you find out that they're kind of a douche canoe, then you're like, oh, I put in too much effort. So it's never.

[Hannah]

I hate that.

[Mackenzie]

If it's from your heart, it's never too much effort at the time. But then looking back, you're like, oh, I did too much for them. And that's understandable.

[Hannah]

I just hope that. And I know this happens so much for all of us, and it's fair. Like. Like, we don't want to give as much of ourselves. After you go through something like this, you don't want to trust, you don't want to invest, and, well, because you also feel protection.

[Mackenzie]

Like, a lot of people say, oh, I felt so silly. And that's so common, but it's not you. It's never you.

[Hannah]

Yeah, she, I hope, finds somebody who deserves her if that's what she wants. All right, let's get into it. So one thing she said that was interesting at the beginning, she, like, talked about how they didn't see each other all the time. They kind of lived far apart. Obviously, Covid was a factor, his job. And she was like, it wasn't a traditional relationship, but it worked for me.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

And I think it's important to note that, yes, obviously you could walk away and be like, well, he was traveling a lot in a pilot job, so it makes sense that he had it easy for cheating. But it's like, just because somebody's in a long distance relationship doesn't mean that it's bad. Or just because somebody. Some people don't live together and they want two separate houses and that works for them. Or two separate bedrooms. Yeah.

[Mackenzie]

If it works for you and you're happy with it, then that's. That's for you. Some things just work differently for different people.

[Hannah]

And also some people are like, in open relationships and polyamorous relationships, it just takes communication. And that's where the problem was.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

Like, I think it's easy to walk away and be like, oh, my God, I met someone online. So they're definitely cheating. And it's like, well, I don't want to completely lose faith in non traditional relationships. Sometimes I just.

[Mackenzie]

There's nothing is ever an absolute. But, like, it can be a red flag. If it's. Especially if it's coupled with other things that are also red flags, then it becomes more of a red flag.

[Hannah]

Oh, sorry, Carl. I know he had a lot of red flags. Carl. Carl just barked. Carl.

[Mackenzie]

There's the. There's Carl. I'm telling you, Carl looks so human, you guys.

[Hannah]

Carl. He's looking at me.

[Mackenzie]

Hannah just looked at the dog like a mom would do a toddler. It was so funny. That was.

[Hannah]

And he stopped. You see? He stopped. Okay, what else? Do you have? Anything? I have. I have a list. You know, I got my list.

[Mackenzie]

The thing. Okay, so the thing with him being married and having a baby, like, yeah, not my fave. I just. I guess, like, I. I feel like a lot of people might easily look at that and say, oh, how could she not know that? How could she not see that or see the signs of that? You guys, there are some really good manipulators. People are sometimes really good at lying and hiding, and especially when you have the type of relationship they had. It kind of made it easier for him.

[Hannah]

He was a master. And it bothered me so much that she was as integrated into his life and he and hers as you would want. Like, his. Her mom loved him. She met people. He worked with, it made. And his excuses. I get it. Like, okay, him. At the beginning, she said, I gave him the benefit of the doubt because of avoidant tendencies. Whoa. Is that such a common thing to be? Like, you know what? I don't want to push too hard. I don't want to make him uncomfortable. He's been through things.

[Mackenzie]

You want to meet him where he's at, and.

[Hannah]

Right.

[Mackenzie]

Let him come to you.

[Hannah]

I'm saying him. But it could be anybody. Like, we all have stuff that we're guarded about. And I have totally been in the position where I'm dating someone who is a complete mystery, and I'm like, I'm gonna be the one that they open up to eventually. All I have to do is stick around way longer than I probably should.

[Mackenzie]

Sometimes that's the intrigue. Like, sometimes that's the fun of it or the adventure of meeting this new person. You know what I mean?

[Hannah]

Yeah. So how do you balance that? How do you allow somebody to warm up to you without assuming they have a wife and kids? Or how do you find out about the wife and kids.

[Mackenzie]

Exactly. And that's the. That's the predicament. And sometimes it's like a lot of people might say, well, not everything is a red flag. Like, if he doesn't have a social media presence, that's not necessarily a red flag. You're right. It's not always. Nothing is an absolute. But when it's coupled with something else. Like missing two birthdays. Yeah, exactly. Missing two birthdays, that's kind of a red flag. Like, that's what some people are bad with dates. I just feel like if he missed one, I get it. If he misses two, it's like, dude, didn't you learn last year? And you saw she was hurt by it. Like, this really hurt me. That's something that you would lock away in your memory bank. Like, oh, I don't want to hurt her again if you really care, you know, like. But he kind of showed his true colors. Like, you know, he showed that he didn't really care. It wasn't. And it wasn't important enough to him. And that was. That's a red flag.

[Hannah]

And the second one did get to her. I loved how she emphasized a lot of the good in the relationship and was like, that's the thing. And we say that for most episodes. It's like in a podcast, you hear the big events, you don't hear the moments of them. Like having pillow talk about things they've never shared with anyone. Like, once you get to the two year mark. Yes. Forgetting a birthday on the outside is like, no brainer. Not okay. But when you're in love with somebody, you don't. You're like, is that it? Am I gonna throw away two years with this person? I don't know.

[Mackenzie]

And then sunk cost fallacy. I've put so much. I put so much time into this. Like, do I get. Do he forgot two birthdays? Do I. Is this a red flag or is it like, well, we've been together this long. Like, do I really feel this way? I've already. This sunk cost fallacy theory is that like, well, I've already been here this long. Am I just stick around even though we forgot a birthday, but then it just. It's ongoing and ongoing.

[Hannah]

And once he started, he started with a little bit. And then also her mom got sick. She's exhausted, and she gradually adjusted to the treatments of like going silent randomly and get like. It's like, didn't start out with him.

[Mackenzie]

Yep.

[Hannah]

Ghosting for a week.

[Mackenzie]

He conditioned her to accept those types of behaviors because, like, you said it was little by little. And so he. It. It's kind of like conditioning her to be okay with that. And then more and more, it got worse and worse.

[Hannah]

I hated the grief ghosting excuse, calling it grief ghosting when they say, like, I was grieving for a week so I couldn't text you. I'm sorry. And I'm not diminishing anyone's grief because sometimes it's real. I. You have to communicate.

[Mackenzie]

You still have to have courtesy to other people. Like, you're not the only one on the planet. Like, you still have to. You have to communicate. Yeah. You have to say to your partner, like, hey, I'm like, say something.

[Hannah]

I need time. I need space. And also, as an added bonus, it's a very nice thing to do, especially if your partner isn't anxious person to say, I need space. I will reach out to you.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah. In.

[Hannah]

At the end of the weekend and.

[Mackenzie]

Give them a time frame. Like, let them set an expectation. Yes.

[Hannah]

If you get in a fight and you need space, it's nice to say, let's talk tomorrow. But right now I need.

[Mackenzie]

Give me a time frame that I know that, like, you're not ditching me forever. I know when to expect you back and then when you come back, then that's gonna create a level of trust. Like, okay, he said he'd come back at this time and he's back. So now I know I can trust him on that. So, like, little things like that will also help build trust.

[Hannah]

So I also think if. I mean, we're talking about in the case that somebody actually genuinely needs space and isn't secretly with their wife, but if you're worried about somebody and you're not sure, and you ask them for those boundaries and those parameters and you say, it helps me when you give me a timeline or at least some kind of indication of when we're going to see each other talk again.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

And they don't do it. That's another, like, believe them kind of thing. And it's hard to do. It's hard to keep your boundaries.

[Mackenzie]

It really is. But when you're. It's the. It's not about when they come back or how long they take or them even. Even the fact that they go away. It's the expectation that they will be back and win. And when you can. When they can set that for you, then it creates a level of safety. So even though, if, Even if they do go silent, you know, okay, I know he'll come back. And then if every Time you fight, they. They say, I'll come back. And they always come back. Then you know that even if you fight and you go away, you know, there's a level of safety there. And she never had that at all.

[Hannah]

And that also not having that is part of an ability. Emotionally abusive dynamic.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, it's a. It's a little bit. It's fundamentally. Yeah, you're in a headspace where it's like, do I stay? Do I. Like, I don't understand. Like, he's. He hasn't broken up with me, so apparently he wants me, I guess. Right. Like, and then you're just questioning, and then you feel like it. Like, is this a red flag? I don't know. Like, if he didn't want me, I feel like he wouldn't be here at all. But he still shows up sometimes, so I guess he does. And then it's confusing and it is. I think that can be abusive.

[Hannah]

And the excuses are always creative. I'm sure there's an endless list of excuses people have used to lie to their partners. And I'm sure you listening have heard crazy stuff. I would actually love to hear some. If anybody's been.

[Mackenzie]

That's. Yeah, I would love to hear that.

[Hannah]

I've definitely. I knew somebody who the guy said he was working in something with. Oh, Carl. I know. I don't like dogfish. Sorry, guys. The guy said he had no service because it was like a government building. And it, like, kind of made sense. You're like, okay, maybe like security. But then you're like, no, no, that's not. They still text in the government.

[Mackenzie]

Like, I get it. But you'd have to be. Do you understand what kind of government facility you'd have to be in to be that kind of.

[Kayla]

Like, you're not the president to be.

[Mackenzie]

Like, right next to the nukes. Like, you'd have to be like, do you know what I mean? Like, that would. You'd have to be crazy.

[Hannah]

I was text. Jury duty. Okay, that's a government building. Like, that's what I'm saying.

[Mackenzie]

Like, you'd have to be like, I don't know if they probably. Maybe they block it like the President's Oval Office or something. But, like, really, you're government. Get out of here.

[Hannah]

But I also just think that the person like that can convince you. Like, yeah, but I'm specifically with this person and they have security. Like, they can make it sound believable, but I'm sure. I just want to hear if you guys have heard anything.

[Mackenzie]

But also she kind of alluded to the fact that she believed him because he was a pilot. That's a good. A good job. You have to be smart. Like, you have to be respectful. He's respectable.

[Kayla]

Yeah.

[Mackenzie]

He's someone that's respected in his community. And so I feel like that his job that he had made him maybe seem a little bit more credible.

[Hannah]

I did want to talk about industries where there's a culture of cheating, because I do. It's a tricky one. Like, obviously, a pilot lifestyle lends itself to travel hotels. Just sneak in if you want. And I was thinking law enforcement. Okay. Law enforcement. We have. I'm not, like, making this accusation. It's just based on our episodes, we've had a lot of military cases. I know sports.

[Mackenzie]

Think of deployments and, yeah, the sports. Anywhere where they're. They're away and people are attracted to them. Like, there's a lot of uniform chasers. So whether it's like a law enforcement uniform or a sports. Sports ball, whatever uniform.

[Hannah]

Well, I think about it. I'm dating a music guy who I trust with everything but musicians. But I'm in. You know, we. I. We talk about it. I'm like, there's. This is a crazy world that we're in, and there's no reason why somebody wouldn't. I think you're adorable. Why wouldn't everyone else? Like, yeah, I'm not saying I have answers, but I'm sure navigating these industries and also as a man in those industries, like, being the guy to say, no, I'm not cheating on my wife, and I actually don't think that's. That's cool. Is hard to do and shout out to the ones who do it, who call out the behavior.

[Mackenzie]

But there's a ton of people in those industries in general, that don't cheat. And that's, of course, but I think so.

[Hannah]

It's so, like, accepted in certain places.

[Mackenzie]

It's just, like, expected. Almost like, oh, my, you're dating a football player. Like, for sure he's gonna cheat on you.

[Hannah]

I guess I want to hear from people who are dating successfully in industries where that's part of the culture, how you guys assure each other, how you confirm that things are honest and what you've seen. Because I think part of the battle is like, you know, we can do our podcast all we want, but unless their friends are like, hey, man, that's not cool, then nothing's gonna change. And I do think there's a lot of people who listen to us that are not Ladies and I appreciate you going into the trenches and calling out the dogfish, because we need that.

[Mackenzie]

Absolutely, absolutely. And there's. And it's nice when people do tell their story because the more we talk about it, the. The less cool it becomes. Like, if we're putting it out there, it's like, oh, we're actually putting a name on this. We're putting a title on this. We're talking about it. And that's what brings the awareness and that's, you know, breaking hearts is one thing. And it's like, oh, people can get over it. It's just emotions, but it's also people's lives. You know what I mean? Like, let's try to realize that these are real people.

[Hannah]

Wait, you just reminded me of the, like, most heart wrenching thing that she said when she said, like, I don't care if you break my heart, but don't waste my time.

[Mackenzie]

Don't waste my time. Oh, yeah, that was. And then that's a quote for sure.

[Hannah]

Giving. Oh, the fact that she wanted to have a baby so badly and was so communicative about that and he had a child and wasted her time. He did the worst.

[Mackenzie]

Actual, your body can only go so long with its eggs. You're actually wasting my biological clock time. Actually, a real thing, like, don't do. That's awful.

[Hannah]

I'm so heartbroken.

[Mackenzie]

Like, hurt me with the truth. Be like, hey, this is the truth. And I just, you know, you want to have kids and this is not gonna happen. Like, something. But don't let this girl go her whole life thinking that eventually is gonna happen, but really it's not gonna happen because you're. You have this other life. Like, it's not.

[Hannah]

That's despicable.

[Mackenzie]

And just don't be afraid to talk about it. Like, I know so many of you have written in when you were like, oh, God, I can't believe I'm writing this. I can't believe I'm telling you this. But in with your stories, because if you need an ear or if you need a platform, we've got it for you. So just send us your email. Our email address is Investigate at the Dating Detectives podcast dot com. Send us your email, tell us your experience. We would love to be an ear for you. And the more we talk about it, the more these guests talk about their stories, the more it's just creating that sense of community that we all need so much. That a lot of our guests have mentioned is kind of the one thing that helps help them get through it usually.

[Hannah]

So you're not alone. And also, there's more people on the Patreon who are down to talk and give advice and just listen. And I love the chat, and it's just the most supportive group. And that's also where we'll give you updates on Kayla's story. Especially. I want to know what happens with the workplace at hr. She reached out to his workplace, which I'm like, you know what? Go off.

[Mackenzie]

Do you know Brian with a Y? It's the. Do you know Brian with a Y? Yep. Yep. Do you say something?

[Hannah]

I have mixed feelings.

[Mackenzie]

Her prerogative.

[Hannah]

That's her prerogative. And she weighed the. Oh, the. The wife. She. I mean, her telling the wife. I think especially having a child involved, it's hopefully going to be the best thing that they know who they're married to.

[Mackenzie]

Crazy. Anyway, Kayla, we love you. Thank you so much for sharing your story so bravely. And it's just. It's so courageous when you come tell your story of the things that have happened to you and, you know, kind of allow yourself to. To be vulnerable and share that so that other people can maybe learn from you or be there with you and support you.

[Hannah]

I feel like people are gonna. We've had this happening more recently. Like, she's so sweet and adorable and single, and people are gonna be like, I wanna date her. Like, she deserves the best connection.

[Mackenzie]

And she cute, too. She's so fine, y' all. She.

[Hannah]

Oh, yeah. An esthetician.

[Mackenzie]

That skin.

[Hannah]

Yeah, she's top tier.

[Mackenzie]

She's a beautiful lady.

[Hannah]

She's very gorgeous, adorable. Kayla, thank you so much and thank all of you for listening and supporting. Send her any kind messages and we'll make sure we relay them.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, we always forward those over. So thank you. And as always, trust your fem intuition.

[Kayla]

Sam.