The Paternity Tales: Part 2

Summary

The Dating Detectives: "The Paternity Tales: Part 2" – Detailed Summary

Release Date: January 13, 2025 | Hosts: Mackenzie Fultz & Hanna Anderson

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1. Introduction and Context

In this emotionally charged episode of "The Dating Detectives," hosts Mackenzie Fultz, a professional Private Investigator, and comedian Hanna Anderson delve into the harrowing experiences of Clayton, a former contestant from "The Bachelor." Clayton shares his ordeal of being deceived by a woman who falsely claimed to be pregnant, leading to intense legal battles and personal turmoil. This episode not only uncovers the manipulative tactics employed by con artists in the dating world but also highlights the broader implications on mental health and the importance of community support.

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2. Clayton’s Story: The Deception Unveiled

Clayton's Initial Encounter

Clayton recounts how, shortly after his appearance on "The Bachelor," a woman approached him with a fabricated story of being pregnant. He explains:

"[10:02] Clayton: She claims she got pregnant off of a one night stand... and she said things like, I will get an abortion if you date me for two weeks, but if not, then I'm having that baby."

Recognizing the Pattern

As Clayton investigated further, he discovered a disturbing pattern of similar accusations against the same woman:

"[13:53] Mackenzie: Oh, no."

Clayton connected with previous victims, forming a support network that revealed the woman's consistent deceitful behavior.

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3. Legal Struggles and Court Proceedings

Fighting Back

Determined to clear his name, Clayton pursued legal action despite facing significant challenges:

"[16:02] Clayton: I'm fighting this because I know she's faking it... She's using the same scams and manipulations."

Court's Verdict

After a series of legal maneuvers, including an injunction against harassment and obtaining access to the woman's medical records, Clayton achieved a significant court victory:

"[31:44] Hannah: Perjury."

The judge ruled in Clayton's favor, referring the woman to the county attorney for prosecution on charges of medical fraud and perjury:

"[32:31] Clayton: Now she could never bring it up in the future, like, I was never pregnant. And now there's a court finding saying that she's never been pregnant."

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4. Building a Supportive Community

Connecting with Other Victims

Throughout his ordeal, Clayton built relationships with other men who had fallen victim to the same woman. These connections provided emotional support and solidarity:

"[39:48] Mackenzie: Some glimmer of hope."

"[40:16] Clayton: I could be that guy to save these men and stop future victims."

Celebrating Victories Together

The community rallied together to celebrate legal victories, reinforcing the importance of collective support in overcoming trauma:

"[29:46] Mackenzie: Yeah."

"[34:03] Clayton: We're awaiting a response from the county attorney."

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5. Mental Health Advocacy and Male Vulnerability

Breaking Stereotypes

Clayton emphasizes the challenges men face in coming forward about such traumas, citing societal expectations of masculinity:

"[42:50] Mackenzie: Doesn't calculate."

"[41:00] Clayton: It's fear of judgment and suppression of emotions."

Encouraging Vulnerability

The hosts and Clayton advocate for greater acceptance of male vulnerability and the importance of mental health support:

"[43:38] Mackenzie: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay."

"[42:50] Mackenzie: Yeah, like when I would go speak to middle school, I used to speak to middle schools and high schools about mental health and that got sidetracked."

Influence of Public Figures

Clayton highlights the positive impact of male public figures openly discussing their mental health struggles:

"[41:32] Clayton: Travis and Jason Kelce... showing vulnerability is awesome."

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6. Lessons Learned and Moving Forward

Awareness and Accountability

The episode underscores the necessity of recognizing deceptive behaviors and holding perpetrators accountable to prevent future victimization:

"[55:37] Mackenzie: Talked to him like, women should be protected, but men should be, too."

Empowering Others

Clayton's journey serves as a beacon of hope, encouraging others to share their stories and seek support without fear of judgment:

"[49:06] Hannah: To have a man that has your platform to connect with on that is rare."

Final Reflections

The hosts conclude by reinforcing the podcast's mission to shed light on such deceitful practices across all types of relationships, not just dating, and to create a safe space for all victims to share their experiences.

"[68:25] Hannah: We love you guys and yeah, thank you, thank you for listening. We love you so, so much."

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Clayton on Initial Deception:
  "[10:16] Clayton: She claims she got pregnant off of a one night stand... and she said things like, I will get an abortion if you date me for two weeks..."

• Mackenzie on Court's Verdict:
  "[31:44] Hannah: Perjury."

• Clayton on Support Network:
  "[40:16] Clayton: I could be that guy to save these men and stop future victims."

• Clayton on Male Vulnerability:
  "[41:00] Clayton: It's fear of judgment and suppression of emotions."

• Clayton on Public Figures' Impact:
  "[41:32] Clayton: Travis and Jason Kelce... showing vulnerability is awesome."

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Conclusion

"The Paternity Tales: Part 2" serves as a compelling exploration of the lengths to which con artists can manipulate individuals within the dating sphere. Through Clayton's gripping narrative and the hosts' insightful discussions, the episode not only exposes the tactics of deceit but also champions the cause of mental health advocacy and the importance of supportive communities. Listeners are left with a deeper understanding of the complexities surrounding such cases and the critical need for empathy and accountability in all relationships.

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For More Information:

• Subscribe and Share: Help grow the community by leaving a five-star review and sharing the podcast.
• Connect with the Hosts: Visit The Dating Detectives for more stories and resources.
• Support the Show: Join their Patreon for exclusive content and bonuses.

Transcript

[Hannah]

The following program contains names, places and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following program is provided for entertainment purposes only, and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances. If you or a loved one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic violence hotline at 1-800-799-7233 for support.

[Mackenzie]

Happy dating, detectives Monday.

[Hannah]

Woohoo. We're here.

[Mackenzie]

I don't know if that was a real Woohoo porn.

[Hannah]

I don't know if it was. I'll give an update. Molly and I are. We live in Los Angeles, but we are safe and not in Los Angeles. We. Our homes are okay. We weren't in a terrible area, but it's just all a terrible area. So we're both safely outside of la. But, I mean, I'm just glad you.

[Mackenzie]

Guys are okay and have somewhere to retreat to. And I'm just. All the fires in LA have just been crazy. So I'm. I'm just so sorry you guys are experiencing that.

[Hannah]

I'm so sorry if anyone listening has people they know or are in areas where they've lost something or lost everything or are just feeling unsafe and on. And I mean, it's just devastating. So.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, I just can't even imagine. So our hearts go out to you. We want you to know that we love you. I'm so.

[Hannah]

And I can't believe that we both live in, like, it was a couple. Feels like just. Just yesterday that MacKenzie was dealing with the hurricanes and now we're over here. It's making me really value community and like, mutual air, mutual aid, mutual air. That was a Freudian slip because I can't breathe the air in Los Angeles.

[Mackenzie]

It is not breathable. The water's not drinkable.

[Hannah]

I know. It made me. Honestly, as I was driving to my families in Las Vegas, I was thinking a lot about how it's like, I'm so grateful for all of the firefighters and responders and systems that are in place to help us, but also the thing we can control in a lot of times the most is just how we show up for the person who lives next door.

[Mackenzie]

And I was thinking about our podcast, literally and figuratively.

[Hannah]

Yeah. And we have, like, it's not the same department, but, like, we have a lot of people who have come on who have stories where people weren't supported, maybe they didn't have the money to get an attorney, or they didn't know the resources that they could find, or there weren't enough resources. And it's like, I'm grateful that we have a community of people who, like, show up independently as a community.

[Mackenzie]

No, absolutely. I. I just. That's what I love about our. Our podcast is the sense of community that we've kind of created. So it's really that I love. And so just know that our. Our hearts are here with you, and we love you, and we are just. Just everything.

[Hannah]

I know. And we're kind of. It's. We're recording this intro outro on Friday, so if I'm, like, a little out of it, it's just because I, like, drove away from Los Angeles last night.

[Mackenzie]

How long is that drive?

[Hannah]

It's like four and a half hours.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, yeah.

[Hannah]

Not my brother's, y'all.

[Mackenzie]

Kind of a long drive. But speaking of the hurricanes, though, the hurricanes were several months ago, and we are just now starting next week. The contractors are coming to fix my house. So that's. It's kind of crazy when you think about how long people are going to be, like, suffering and dealing with this. This loss. So, anyways, our hearts go out to you, and we love you, but let's get into the podcast. That's why we're here. Let's. Okay, so we're gonna do. Girl, we got a lot of good responses.

[Hannah]

I am so excited for the debrief. I'm nervous, honestly, for the debrief, because it's difficult conversation, but I'm grateful that we get to have it. So just know that last week, we, like, didn't get into stuff too deep because. Because we want to at the end of this episode, and we will take into account your many. Your many thoughts and responses. So thank you. As always.

[Mackenzie]

I have to say that I'm really fond of our listeners, like the. The. Our sleuthies. Well, let me just say that everybody is, regardless of their opinion or their thoughts or what they. You know, that whatever. Everybody has been so kind and so, like, very mature, like, very. Everybody's been able to give their opinions without being, like, a dickhead about it. Do you know what I mean? Like, oh, I didn't really care for him like this. He kind of rubbed me the wrong way on this. But there was nothing that was overtly, like, like, just mean or cruel. And I got to say, I have so much respect for our listeners and how to help. You can have, like, adult conversations, friendly debates, and I really. I really respect and appreciate that about our listeners. So thank you guys for being kind even on something that you might not agree with or whatever. And I feel like that's the support that we need.

[Hannah]

I so agree. And also can, like, echo a lot of what you guys were feeling. I loved also the ability to kind of, like, check our own bias and, yeah. Admit when we're wrong. Like, somebody wrote something. We can talk about it more later where they just were like, you know, I. I was on a roller coaster. I didn't know who he was, and at first, I kind of thought about, like, I thought about his words differently because he's a man, and I kind of reversed it, and I went through that, too. And I think it's great that we can acknowledge that, like, most of the time, we're talking about women. We are women. We're girls. Girls. It does change things when it's not a woman telling the story, but that doesn't change how we want to show up for them and care for them. But it is a different conversation. So we'll talk more in the debrief. Guys, let's recap.

[Mackenzie]

Okay, go.

[Hannah]

Clayton is a bachelor from the literal show.

[Mackenzie]

Bachelor.

[Hannah]

The literal Bachelor, Yes. He's not just a single man. He is. Was on the Bachelorette first, and then he went on the Bachelor.

[Mackenzie]

Not super well liked on the Bachelor.

[Hannah]

Yeah. Although I will say a lot of people were commenting like he wasn't as hated as he thinks he is, which I hope he reads those.

[Mackenzie]

I hope he. Yes. That was really interesting, too, because Hannah and I aren't like, we're not Bachelor Nation girls. Like, we don't. I mean, we know what the show is, but we don't. We're not, like, avid watchers. And so it was nice that we were able to hear his story from an. A totally unbiased position of just what happened. And we. But we also. We didn't see what a lot of you Bachelor Nation people saw. So a lot of what happened to him after going on the show, a lot of people were like, oh, well, that's karma. And it was just really interesting how I, like, I wonder if the same thing would be said if it was a woman. And as. I just. I don't know.

[Hannah]

Yeah, I don't. You know. You hope not. But then again, it's the whole short skirt phenomenon where people are like, well, you wore a short skirt, so. So that's what happens. And it's like, guys. No. Anyway, so, yes, he comes off the Bachelor. Dating life is completely changed because he's in the spotlight and he is cautious for a while, but then he's kind of like, you know, he's a, pretty, for the, like, he seemed pretty grounded. He was like, I'm still the same person. Yeah, I'm gonna try to keep things as normal as possible. So then he had a brief hookup which he explained was it didn't have any of the baby making situations. There was, you know, the bases, didn't get the home run, if you know what I mean. And he had one hookup with somebody that was, he was a realtor. She was interested in working with him as a realtor. So he was, you know, admitted like kind of some murky ground, but it happens. And then he shut it down, was not interested in pursuing the relationship further. And she said, well, guess what, I'm pregnant. She said things like, I will get an abortion if you date me for two weeks, but if not, then I'm having that baby. I, I, it's unimaginable. How do you even say that to someone imaginable? And then, I mean, we don't need to go into detail. You should go back and listen to part two. But I mean, part one, now we're on part two.

[Mackenzie]

We won't ruin it for you.

[Hannah]

But it was, but basically he's like fighting this woman and you know, being a bit gaslit, being legally pursued and not really sure how to handle it because he's like, I don't think she's pregnant. Like, I can't, I do not believe she's pregnant. We left off where he's still battling this, but he's now realized that there are other men who have gone through.

[Mackenzie]

The same thing with her, other victims. So today you're going to hear the second part of the story and holy bananas. But also, you guys who listened to the new, our new sister podcast called the Medical Detectives.

[Hannah]

It's out. Go listen anywhere you get podcasts. The first episode is great. It's so good.

[Mackenzie]

The Medical Detectives. Oh, a new episode will drop every Wednesday. And so the Medical Detectives is basically just what we do, except in the medical line of things. So it's kind of interesting.

[Hannah]

Yeah, I feel like everyone has a story or knows somebody who has dealt with a false diagnosis or.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, like something.

[Hannah]

Yes. And you know, it's horror stories of.

[Mackenzie]

Something medical and how we're not doctors.

[Hannah]

We don't know what we're doing when we walk into, you know, you trust, we trust them. And I'm not saying, I mean the, the host, Dr. Aaron is a doctor. And the other host, Anna, is amazing. And her. The first episode is her story with her health journey. So go listen because you'll fall in love with them. And they're the same vibe. You know, it's like we are so proud of our producer Molly for continuing this storytelling type.

[Mackenzie]

The comment so far is that everyone seems to really be loving it and somebody even said, I love it more than I thought I would. They're not big into, like medical shows or whatever, but they like the Dating Detectives, so they tried it. So I think that's. That's really cool. So thank you for that. There's a link to it in the show notes, so go check it out.

[Hannah]

Medical Detectives. And then, as always, our Patreon. $5 a month join. Get more info.

[Mackenzie]

It's only $5 a month. You get two bonus episodes. So please join the Patreon. And just so you know, when you join The Patreon, that $5, it just contributes to the show monetarily. It just helps us to bring you more quality and content and keep us going. So we really, really appreciate your support there. But we also just appreciate just when you listen and share, when you share on your socials, that's such a big deal because that's, you know, that's the way of the world now. So thank you so much.

[Hannah]

We love you guys. And we, I think, gotta get into it.

[Clayton]

You.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, you guys are gonna just listen to this episode. You'll. You won't believe your ears.

[Hannah]

Clayton, the floor is yours.

[Clayton]

After it goes public, not even 24 hours later, I get a DM. And the DM said, hey, you need to look into this court case. You're not the only one.

[Hannah]

From who, who said it.

[Clayton]

It was from the now the fiance of the victim before me. What?

[Hannah]

Oh, so this is what she does.

[Clayton]

So I am blown away and I am just shocked. And I'm like, what? So they. She gives me a court case number. So I go in the next day and it's publicly accessible. So I pull all the files and I'm reading the. The screenshot of the text messages and it's like verbatim, she's using the same words. It's the same story. She claims she got pregnant off of a one night stand and she's pregnant with twins. And I'm like, oh, my gosh. Like, this girl has done this before. But as I'm looking into the court docs and reading in that doc, I see another name. And I'm like, what? And I. There's a guy before him. And I'm like, what the hell is going on here? So I reach out to the last guy, victim number three, and I'm like, dude, can you. Can we meet up? And he walked in, and I looked at him as he's walking up, and I just laughed. And I said, she clearly has a type. Because he was. You know, he's 6 5, 280 pounds or whatever he is. I'm 6 5, 26 0. So we just laughed. And then it just felt like we already knew each other. And I'd already went through so much. I mean, I had. At that point, I talked to him on the phone multiple times for sometimes an hour a day, because he had become the person that was quelling my fear of, you know, I thought potentially this girl. I was like, this girl is either the craziest woman I've ever met or she's telling the truth. And so there was still a part of me that thought, like, is she just not providing me evidence to mess with me, but she actually is pregnant. Like, she's just trying to screw with me and make this, like, as torturous as possible. So I still. In the back of my head, I was like, I can't fully prove that she's not pregnant. I. Because, I don't know. Like, nothing she's doing is making it any sense. So for me to apply logic and say, oh, if she's pregnant, she would have provided evidence. I was like, maybe she's just sick in the head and wants to, you know, like, drag this. And so very quickly, the previous victim became that voice of reason that said, dude, she has no evidence. I'm telling you, she does this where she makes it seem like she has stuff. She has nothing. She's not pregnant. You don't have to worry. Like, I. I exist now, and so does the previous guy and the previous guy. And so you're just another one of them. And I said, well, what if I'm the one that she finally decided to actually get pregnant with? And he said, dude, no, she's. She's running the same con she's always run. And so the first time that I saw him, it was just like. It felt like a brotherhood. It felt very calming. And it was just to know that I wasn't alone and to see him in person, it was just like, okay, this is my. You know, this is my guy. Like, this is my. My. My friend. This is my confidant, the guy that I can walk through this with. And so we spent hours on the phone from that point forward, just kind of helping each other get through it. And I had mentioned that I had acquired an ultrasound from her lawyer that I had screen grabbed whenever we were in a zoom meeting. And I said, I tried to reverse Google image search that. Nothing comes up. And he goes, well, that's funny, because that's because she's learned. And I said, what do you mean? He said, oh, because she did that. In my case, the reason why I couldn't find that ultrasound online was because the previous guy did catch her through a reverse Google search.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, no.

[Clayton]

And he submitted it to the courts, and he was like, I found this photo. It's a. It's a photo from a mom.

[Hannah]

It's from clip art.

[Clayton]

It's from a mommy blog. So I go on at this point, like, everyone's tearing me apart online and ripping me to shreds. He's a piece of shit. This is like this tract. He's a shitty bachelor. He's still a shitty person. You know, everyone's running with these narratives and not believing me one bit. And so I got to put out a public statement. Like, I have to regain the narrative. So I was like, you know what? I'm going to make this a public matter. Because she did. I'm going to make it. I'm going to basically, from here on out, the court of public opinion is going to follow along with this journey. So I'm like, you know what? I'm going to just lay it all out there. So I say, hey, guys, yes, this is, you know, happening, but it's not true. I am actively fighting this in court. Court. The Phoenix Superior Courts. It goes public, and she kept sending me messages. She texted me from a total of 13 different numbers. I would block one. She would use a Google voice number and get another one. And then she was sending me over to my email, was setting, continue to send me messages. And she had mail trackers on it. So she knew that I was reading them. Even though I had them in my block folder. She saw that I was still viewing them. And so she continued to send emails to me. And I got to a point where I was tired of her interacting with me and sending me messages. So finally I'm like, I'm going to get an order of protection against her. I'm going to stop her from being able to respond to me. Okay, well, then she gets one against me in. In retaliation. And that's a whole other thing that frustrated me. Like, I get mine, they make me go to court and have to Explain. She gets hers. They don't even make her go to court. They just like, Yep. So I then go into court to basically try to get the order of protection knocked off and try to uphold my. I got an injunction against harassment because I was. I was being petty because. Which I should have gotten the order of protection. My pettiness actually ended up backfiring on me. So the difference between the two is, like, you get an injunction against a. Harassment against a stranger, someone, like, in your work. Like, workplace harassment and order protection is more for somebody that you know on a personal basis. Like, it could be like a friend.

[Hannah]

So you were trying to make a statement that, like, not only do I not want to talk to her, I don't even know her.

[Clayton]

Yeah. Like, I barely know this woman. She's a stranger. So out of pettiness, I got the injunction against harassment. Well, ended up I should have got the order because the order was. Would have been, in fact, for two years. My injunction was in effect for one year. So it is what it is. I got a block regardless.

[Hannah]

Well, thank you for sharing the. What you've learned.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

About those two things for future reference.

[Clayton]

Yeah. So, yeah. So the order protection lasts longer, at least in the state of Arizona. So I had to go into court to get that injunction. Um, so I go into court, mind you, by myself. No. No lawyer. She has a lawyer. And I'm like, again, little. This is where I'm stubborn. And I've always been stubborn to some degree. I was like, hey, I'm.

[Mackenzie]

I'm innocent, so I don't need a lawyer.

[Clayton]

So she's gonna have to prove she's pregnant. Very simple. Right. Like, I'm gonna go into this courthouse and be like, your honor, she's not pregnant, so she needs to prove she's pregnant. That's it. She's faking it. And so she comes in virtually. I go in, in person, and I end up getting like an extension where the judge is like, hey, I can't rule on this. We're going to extend this into the next week and I'll have you return and then I'll make this decision as far as whether or not I uphold this. Like, we. We ran out of time today. I get out of the courtroom and I get a text from this podcaster and he goes, hey, you did good in there. And I said, what? He's like, yeah. He goes, you. You actually represent yourself really well. I said, how do you know? And he goes. He goes, did you not know it was live streamed? Oh, what And I was like, what? He goes, oh, yeah. He's like. It was like 10,000 people watched it. And I was like, what?

[Hannah]

Did they not tell you?

[Clayton]

No, we did not have any clue. So a gift from above, a godsend. It was the best thing for me because in that video she showed up virtually. And I didn't see this when I was in the court because I wasn't looking at the screen, but she was shifting her belly around, moving it.

[Hannah]

Oh my gosh, like Santa Claus in the mall.

[Mackenzie]

Like, like moving the pillow around.

[Clayton]

She had a prosthetic. Yeah.

[Hannah]

What?

[Clayton]

She's, she's, she's shifting it and moving it in a frame so the judge can see it. Like, I'm pregnant, Look at me. And so people are like, she's not pregnant. Like, like that's not. Like you, like, you can't move a bump like that. And so people are obviously are like, this is not real. Everyone's like, no. Like, no belly moves like that. Well, she, in the meantime was like posting to Reddit in a Dropbox file and she had photos that she was posting and a video even of her pregnant belly. And it like kind of looked pregnant, but it was also like, well, couldn't she have just like bloated herself?

[Mackenzie]

She just had tacos.

[Hannah]

Like, we have AI now we have prosthetics.

[Clayton]

Yeah. So that ended up being great because then what happened was, is it was live stream and everyone's like, he's a dumbass. Why is he self representing? So I then get reached out to by a lawyer and he's like, dude, you can't represent yourself. And I was like, I understand. I said, but like, I can't pay you. I said, you guys, I've looked you up. You're too expensive. You're 500 an hour. And then he's well, we'll represent you for this next week. And so I'm like, okay. And so I get my injunction. But then that was filed separately from family court. That was like in criminal court. But then I still had the family court open, and the family court case was to deal with the parenting plan she served me with. So I really had to prove she wasn't pregnant. And even if she was, I was not the father. So I needed a paternity test, but no one would give us one because she was pregnant with twins. And this is when I figured out the reason she chose twins is because she found out that most labs won't do a paternity test when twins are involved.

[Mackenzie]

What?

[Hannah]

Why?

[Clayton]

Because there's a chance, a small chance that there could be two separate fathers. And so because they don't want to run the risk of telling someone they're not the father when they could be, and they could have potentially got the DNA of one child and not the other when they took the swab, they don't. A lot of facilities won't do it. And that's why she chooses twins, is because she was trying to dodge having to do a paternity test. And. But then I found. I was like, I. Thankfully, I'm. I'm stubborn. I was like, there's gotta be somebody that'll do it.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Clayton]

And I found, you know, the facility. Shout out, Ravjan, you know, maybe I'll get sponsored by them one day. So I told her, I go, we're gonna do this paternity test. And she at first is like, I'll schedule it. She schedules it for both of us. Then the day before the paternity test, I get a call saying, hey, like, we just, you know, you canceled or. It said like, that I canceled. And I'm like, it's all sudden. I see her. She, like, goes. I'm like, no, no, she set me up. I call, and I'm like, who? I didn't cancel. And they're like, we got a call that you cancel. I was like, no, no, I did not cancel. Meanwhile, she's going on Reddit because she's telling her story anonymously on Reddit. And so she's feeding this Reddit audience is like, he canceled. Everyone's like, oh, he's guilty, and blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, no, no. So I call and I set it up, and I'm like, I'm setting this up. I set up the testing facility, and then I screenshot the receipt, and I posted on my story, and I'm like, hey, everybody, I scheduled a paternity test for this date, and now she has to schedule hers. And then I will let you know the results once we get them back. So I forced her hand. Now I'm like, hey, you don't get to keep dodging, canceling my appointments. And, like. And dodging. Now you have to, like, you got it. Because I'm telling everybody, like, hey, I'm good to go.

[Mackenzie]

Like, good for you, though.

[Clayton]

And so she ends up scheduling and she cancels. And then I go online right away. I'm like, she canceled. And she's like, email me from another blocked email. No, like, don't say I canceled. Like, I got sick. And so she's on Reddit. Like, I was sick. That's why I canceled. So everyone's like, well, then reschedule. So now everyone's kind of holding her account. Like, well, then reschedule. Well, then the day of, I'm like, she's going to cancel again. She doesn't. She takes the test. And I'm like, now my heart drops because I'm like, if she's not pregnant, then why she would she take the test? So now I'm like, back to being, like, freaked out. I'm like, wait, this makes no sense. Like, it. She's going to get caught. And so I'm like, what? Does it not make any sense? So I'm racking my brain. I'm like, why would she do this? And then I Google, because I Google everything. And so I was like, what would happen if you take a prep paternity test and you are not pregnant? And it said that if you're not pregnant, the test will come back as inconclusive. And so I'm like, okay. And so I call up the lab tech. I said, hey, I just want to ask you a question. If the test comes back as inconclusive, what happens then? He goes, well, then we have to retest. And I said, okay, and what happens when we test again and it comes back inconclusive? He said, we'll have to retest again.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, my God.

[Clayton]

I said, so, whoa, no, no. Can't you just say she's not pregnant at that point? He goes, no, we can't. I go, well, then, at what point do you, like, what. What happens if she tests the third time? He goes the third time. He goes. He goes the third time. We would probably ask for a doctor at that point to get involved to kind of explain what's going on the third time.

[Mackenzie]

Lord.

[Clayton]

And so I. At that point, I made a very bold decision in my eyes, where I said, you know what? I said, all right, thank you. I hang up the phone with him, and I said, well, Clayton, I said, my. My. My fem tuition.

[Mackenzie]

Good for you.

[Clayton]

Was. Was kicking. And I said, I'm not going to let this drag. I see exactly what she's going to do. She's going to keep taking these tests until, like, they're going to keep coming back in, and then she's just going to hope it dies off. And so I was like, nope, not doing this. I believe in my heart she's not pregnant. And I'm going to make a statement.

[Mackenzie]

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[Clayton]

So I went on my social media and released a video and said like test results came back, little to no fetal DNA. Let's go. Like I knew she wasn't pregnant. Like I knew this, that she wasn't pregnant.

[Hannah]

Wait, so you just, you just said.

[Mackenzie]

Even though I didn't pregnant, I at.

[Clayton]

That Point was calling her bluff. I was putting all my chips on black. I was like, I am not going to wait for you to do another test. This is bullshit and you know it.

[Mackenzie]

So what happened? Did you, did you get what happened? Yeah.

[Clayton]

So I, at that point was like, I was basically trying to end it right there. I was like, I'm going to end this because this is ridiculous once and for all. But I, I, I also came to the conclusion, and I was like, I was running the risk. I was like, if she comes back, takes the second test and it comes back that I am the father, I am canceled. I am basically going to be never believed ever again, and my reputation will forever be.

[Mackenzie]

But you knew in your gut.

[Clayton]

But in my gut, I was like, you know what? I do? I'm, I feel in my gut that she's faking it. So I'm not going to wait. I'm going to risk it. And if I happen to be wrong, then I will go forever, get off social media and I will just bite. Be like, you know what? My reputation is ruined, and so be it. But I was like, you know what? No. Like, I, in my heart feel that she's lying. And so I, I post that video. She's like going ballistic in my, my email. Take that down. That's not true. I gotta take another test. So she goes on Reddit. She's like telling them, like, I'm gonna take another test next week. And I'm just like, no, this is ridiculous. So she's like, I'm gonna take another test in a week. So some people are like, okay, I guess we'll wait for another week. And I'm like, this is bullshit. Well, then I get a message, the family court's gonna close. They're like, hey, there's been inactivity. You guys aren't submitting anything in this court. If you don't submit anything in the next 30 days, that we're going to close this down. And I in that moment was like, no, no, I don't want you to close it down. In fact, I'm going to now, like, use my lawyers that I have, and I'm going to file documents to make you have to prove that you were pregnant, because I see where this is going. So basically I was like, no, I'm going to file and make her have to prove that she's pregnant. So I got these lawyers on, and the lawyer that I have was, that's the same lawyer from the previous guy I had at this point, I had known about the prior victim. So I had a discussion with the previous victim about his previous representation and then asked to be given his name so that I could reach out and talk with that lawyer. And at first this lawyer was like, I didn't want to be a part of it, but then realized this is public and she's never going to stop. And so he was like, okay, I'll represent you. And he's been incredible and his whole team's been awesome. The whole game plan was to basically make her prove that she was pregnant. Because my concern to them was, hey, she's going to eventually have a miscarriage or something's going to happen to these phantom children that don't exist, never did exist, but yet they'll somehow cease to exist and she'll just move on, but the damage will already be done. And so I had a conversation with my lawyers and said I would like to file something that forces her to prove pregnancy. I didn't even know if that was possible. I just felt it was common sense that there's got to be a way to file this to make her have to prove it. You can't just say something and not back it up with evidence and then that be it for court. So I, I was like, hey, let's get her to, to disclose the evidence that she claims she has, which she won't give me. Can we get the court to force her essentially to provide that information? So that's where we, they came up with the legal aspect as far as how exactly do we do that and how, what do we file? But I made my intentions clear to them that I wanted to have her provide proof. And so they're like, we're going to help you, hopefully put an end to this. So we file all these documents and she's emailing me like, let's close this case. And I'm like, no, hell to the now we file in court. So we had two evidentiary hearings and in the first one we had, all of us were there in person and had our representation. And while we were there, my very smartly, my lawyer had said, hey, judge motto, we are just trying to get our medical records and she's not providing them to us. And my lawyers were like, we want her to sign off so that we can get her HIPAA records. Get all of her health records.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Clayton]

And she wouldn't give them to me. Prior I had asked her from the very beginning to give me access to her health records and she wouldn't. And I was like, that's another reason why I Didn't believe her. I was like, you're not letting me talk to your doctors. Why would I believe you? I can't talk to any of these doctors that you've seen.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Clayton]

And so finally, in court, my lawyer goes, hey, we have Doc. The paperwork right here. All she has to do is sign. And the judge goes, well, will you sign it? And she's like. Her eyes got big. She's like, yeah. And so she signs it because she had no choice. Like, in her eyes, she's like, on the spot. And she says, no. The judge would be like, well, why are you. Why won't you sign it?

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Clayton]

So she signs it, and then, boom, My lawyers go to work, and she claims that she saw eight to 10 different doctors, and every one of them got back to us and said they had no record of her.

[Mackenzie]

What?

[Clayton]

So now. Now the medical records that she did send to me are now fraudulent. They're medical fraud because she never actually saw those doctors. And then, sure enough, we end up getting a court date set. And this was last year in 2024. In June or July, we have a court case, and people from across the world, like, fly in to watch this. We had. I think there was 50 people that flew in from all over the country and showed up to support us, and it was really powerful. They stood outside the court. So when I walked up, there was, you know, people there cheering us on, walking in. So I show up. There's max security. I walk out, get out of my car. There's armed guards, like. And I'm like, what is going on? Like, this is. And I'm walking up, and I see her walking up at the same time. So I stop. She walks by. Her mom's there with her, and.

[Hannah]

What's going through your head?

[Clayton]

Well, I'm just infuriated. Like, I'm pissed off because I just couldn't believe that she even showed up. So now we go into court in July, and it's like, we're basically, you know, stating that she can't prove she's pregnant after all this time. And we would also like to have her referred to the county attorney for prosecution on charges of medical fraud. And it was medical fraud and perjury.

[Hannah]

Perjury.

[Clayton]

So we wanted to get referred to the county attorney for perjury. Well, in that entire court hearing, it goes on for, like, an hour, hour and a half, or whatever. And at the end of it, ultimately, which was also streamed. It's live streamed. That entire hearing was live streamed, I believe. I'm not Mistaken. And so at the end of it, the judge rules in our favor and then refers her to the county attorney for prosecution. And in the court case, at one point they're like, so you committed medical fraud? She was like, well, just like a little bit. And we all gasped, My God. But ultimately, the judge saw that this girl's completely making all this up. There's no evidence. She has a track record based on all that. The most important thing was she submitted a statement saying that she was never pregnant. So now she could never bring it up in the future, like, and say, like, I was pregnant. It's like, no, now there's a court.

[Mackenzie]

Finding saying that you're admitting you were not pregnant.

[Clayton]

So now if she were to claim that she was, I was like, technically I can use this as defamation and say, hey, I have a court find. Court finding, yeah, to say that this court's ruled that she was never pregnant or they found that she wasn't pregnant. So now I can sue you for defamation because you're lying after you lost a court case. And so afterwards, one of the individuals that flew in said, hey, I'm having a gathering and many of you are welcome to come to the house. So it was a celebration. Yeah, we all popped in and, you know, hung out and people were swimming in the pool, and it was just like a birthday party celebration. It's kind of what it felt like. It was, you know, the end to this, all this madness, at least for the time being. And we were all celebrating the fact that she was referred to the county attorney for prosecution. It was like the ultimate outcome that we were hoping for. We got everything we wanted, legal fees awarded and the referral. Those were the. And basically also a finding of non paternity. So I got everything that I'd wanted out of that case. So it was a win across the board. So, yeah, we all celebrated and just felt like it was over at that point. But we knew that there was going to be a appeal process. We knew that she wasn't going to go away, but we also knew that her power had been taken from her. And now it's hopefully up to the courts to take the rest of that power from her. And now at this point, she's still being investigated. Rachel Mitchell, which is the county attorney, is investigating her. And so we're awaiting a response. So right now, when.

[Hannah]

How long has it been since the court case ended?

[Clayton]

Since June or July, whenever that court case was. So we've been waiting for it takes a while. That's what their investigators Told me, like, hey, it takes a while to, you know. But, yeah, she's being actively investigated right now. So that brings us to present day. I did this podcast because I saw you guys have. It's like, it's very relevant to, like, this story, what I've went through. And until Rachel Mitchell makes the decision, I'm going to still put this out there for more people to latch on to, because it's wrong and accountability needs to be had. And sometimes you got to put a little pressure, you know, out there. There needs to be an action taken. If you just drop this and say, like, oh, whatever, like, we're not going to prosecute her. She's gonna do it again and again and again. Because I found out a week or two ago, apparently there's two more victims.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, no more people are coming forward.

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Clayton]

There's like seven now. And I'm like, this is gonna be. There's gonna be 8, 9, 10, and 11. And what agitates me is like, you know, I'm a big mental health advocate is I was in a really dark spot when I was going through all this. I had suicidal ideation. I had multiple points where I was like, my life is just. I can't keep fighting. Those are the thoughts that were coming in my head. And so I was in a really dark spot. And I talked to some of the previous guys, and they were like, there are multiple times where I thought, like, I don't know if I can do this any longer. And so what really agitates me is that she continues to push. And I'm like, you've almost taken people off this planet because you can't take accountability. And that's what infuriates me. My agitation lies in the fact that if she doesn't get prosecuted, she'll do this again. And what it's going to take, someone killing themselves because that's what's going to happen.

[Mackenzie]

Yep.

[Hannah]

And abusers bank on that. It's like they want to beat you down.

[Clayton]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

Until you either get. Until you give it. Because what the alternative to the darkest option is is just like, fine, whatever you say.

[Clayton]

Yeah.

[Mackenzie]

So. Okay. But let's go back to the Bachelor. Okay. So how do you think the being on the Bachelor and being kind of in that public eye in that way affected your situation with her?

[Clayton]

I. So I think what she targeted me. She said early on, you're not well liked. She said an email. I didn't watch the Bachelor, but I've looked you up. And I found the clips from the show and I see you're not a well liked bachelor and like how do you think people are going to respond when they find out you're a deadbeat dad? So she was using that against me and I think again targeted me because she was like, everyone's not going to believe him when I do this and I can destroy them and everyone will believe him because he's not well liked. So I do believe that absolutely. If I was a well liked bachelor, I would have not had either of these accusations against me, the cheating scandal or the paternity scandal. I think I was a target because.

[Mackenzie]

It was easy to target you because you're already an asshole. So of course you're going to be an asshole.

[Clayton]

In her case that not only, not only that, but even like, but a people pleaser and a pushover. I think, I think, I think I gave that off. I had no self love and self confidence and I was open about my studied you.

[Hannah]

Yeah. And this is what they do. They find the ways that they can connect with you.

[Clayton]

I was open about my struggles on mental health. So she knew and everybody else knew that I was struggling with self love and, and that I was, you know, really struggling in general just with acclimating post show. And so she saw weakness and she thought like, hey, I can overcome this man because he's already beaten down. She didn't think I was going to have the fight that I had in me. That's one of my biggest gifts, is my resiliency. That only has gotten stronger through this. She didn't know the fight that I had in me. When she went public just being like, all right, let's do it, let's shine a bigger spotlight on it. And that was not what she expected. And so to that reporter that was like, this could be the best thing that ever happened. It was that spotlight got me, you know, lawyered up. That spotlight got me, you know, all the court of a public opinion on my side. And now that spotlight has her being looked into for prosecution. So I will say like one of the best things that has come out of this is my friendships with her previous victims. I've gotten to know the previous two victims. Some of the guys I tried to reach out to and they didn't want anything to do with it. It's been long enough for them where they're just like, they don't want to be back in spotlight or be. They're just like, they want to live a private life and so do these guys. But they got dragged into this because you Know, like, they reached out, and then their names were in the documents. So they were uncovered through those documents. And so, you know, I had a lot of conversations with. I won't. I'll just say one of the previous guys and, like, he, you know, told me. He's like, man, I. Early on before, like, we got the, you know, the judgment and one in court, he was like, I just don't know, dude. If you can't stop her, who can? He's like, I was a nobody. He's like, I was just some regular guy with no audience. And now you're fighting her, but we're still in court. You've been fighting this for almost a year, and, like, all the evidence points to her being guilty, and yet we're still waiting on a court date to happen. He goes, I'll be honest with you. Like, if this doesn't work, we'll never win. He goes, to be honest with you, I lost hope years ago. And so when I found out it was you, I. He's like, I got a little bit of a glimmer thinking, like, maybe this guy can stop her since he has a name behind him. But I've recently started to lose that hope again because you're going through the exact same thing I'm going through, and, like, you're not gaining any ground. And he's like, if this doesn't work, like, I. I just. I don't know, man. Like, it'll never end, and I'll have to basically deal with this for the rest of my life, and I just don't want to think that that's going to be a possibility. And so I've hung out with these guys, met them, spent time with them, and become close to them because we shared trauma. And when we won, ah, man, it was awesome. When we won, we went out that night, or we celebrated, like, the guys, because they were there. They were in the courthouse with me. They showed up. So to have their support there was just like. I mean, it was just incredible, like, to have them, you know, sit there in the back there with me. And it was a powerful tune to the judge to be like, hey, here's two people, like, two previous guys, victims right here. It's not just me. It's them. And I got a text, I think it was like, a few days after, by one of the guys. And he said. He said, dude. He goes, I cried my eyes out when I went home because we finally won. He's like, we finally won. After all this time, I finally feel like this Might actually be over. He's like, I lost myself along the way.

[Mackenzie]

Some glimmer of hope.

[Clayton]

He's like, I didn't know, like, if this was going to be my. My new life. He's like, he was. People that were closest to me always wondered if I was telling the truth. And now, like, with this win, everybody believes me. You've given me redemption. I finally can let go. And to hear that I was like, it just. I mean, it meant the world to me. I was like. I was a voice for the voiceless, you know, for. This is why it happened to me and not some other random person. Like, this was meant to happen to.

[Mackenzie]

Me because you could be that voice.

[Clayton]

Because I could be that guy to. To. To, you know, to save these two or three or four other men and stop future guys from falling victim to her. So, you know, that gave me all the power in the world.

[Hannah]

Well, you're helping people by sharing your story beyond what is necessary, too. I mean, we told you at the beginning that we don't get a lot of men. Like, we've had one man. Come on. We had one man's sister. Come on. But a lot of men don't want to talk about things like this that have happened to them. So it was nice to hear about your connection to the other victims. But, I mean, do you have. I know you. You said mental health for men, specifically advocacy. Like, why do you think it is so much harder for men to come forward about stuff like this? And also, how can we make it easier?

[Clayton]

It's that fear of judgment. It's deeply rooted. And a lot of men suppress their emotions because growing up, whether it's the culture we were raised in, where all the, you know, movies we watched were these macho men that were football players or soldiers, and you don't see them cry. You see them kicking ass and getting the women. They're the alpha males. And. And, you know, it's that coupled with playing football. I played a gladiator sport, so it's like you're expected to be the baddest of the baddest, like, the absolute alpha male. You're. You're a beast.

[Hannah]

You know, it's so funny because football is just a lot of hugging. Like, I don't know why we haven't made that connection.

[Clayton]

A lot of. A lot of hugging and ass laughing, too. I do think social media is starting to turn a bit. There's a shift I've. And I love this. I see a lot of athletes. I love that Travis and Jason Kelce. They'll get emotional and they'll cry on the show. And I love it. I think it's awesome. There's a lot of men that look up to athletes in general, rappers, you know, people of influence. And so we need more people of influence stepping up. The other guy I was thinking of was A.J. brown. He's one of the best wide receivers in the NFL. And a reporter basically brought up, she was struggling and he told her a story of his struggles with mental health and how he thought at one point of taking his own life. And this is one of the most successful and best wide receivers in the NFL right now. Like, he doesn't have to share this. He could just be seen as like that, you know, he's the best strong macho man. And yet this man's being vulnerable. And I loved it. I saw that and I was like, this is awesome. Like, these are the guys that men, it's going to rack their brains because you know the frustrating part, but it's just the reality of it. There's a lot of young men that will be like, if they see a five foot six guy crying, they'll be like, oh, he's soft or he's, you know, another, you know, he's a pussy or whatever. Like that's what they'll say. But when they see a 6 foot 5, 250 pound man crying, their brains, you can just see it, their brains are like, it's like they're like cracking. Like when I would, when I would go speak.

[Mackenzie]

Doesn't calculate.

[Clayton]

Yeah, like when I would go speak to middle school, I used to speak to middle schools and high schools about mental health and that got sidetracked. Whenever this whole allegation came up, I would go speak to these kids and then afterwards I would get calls the next day from the superintendent saying like we had three kids admit themselves to the counselor, you know, that they were, that they were going to take their life and they were thinking about it and that your story gave them hope. And so these kids, like, they are impressionable and they do. I remember when I was in high school, I had two NFL athletes show up. It was Jeremy Macklin and Dinar Alexander. They were Rams players and they showed up and they could have said anything. I sponged up every single thing they said because I was like, these guys are NFL athletes. And so whatever they say, it's like their words matter, you know, and, and so, you know, we, that's what we need. We need more macho men. I think the Rock has spoken up about it, which I love, you know.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay.

[Clayton]

Dwayne Johnson's talked about it and it's like, that's what we need and we're getting it. I think I've seen Jason Momoa talk about it. But men of all shapes and sizes and colors need to speak up on it. Right. That's what we need. We need more of that. They need to show more of that movies, men being vulnerable.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Clayton]

And then we need to also women have to be willing to, you know, to support that. And I see a lot of women that do. But I still do, I do still see some, some women that are like, you know, I want a real man. I don't want a man that cries. So I think it's, it's an acclimation period. There's some women that grew up in a household where their father, they never saw their father shed a tear. And so, like, that's what they expect out of men. So, like, it's just going to take a shift and there's going to always be this resistance to change. But I, I am genuinely encouraged. I think we are seeing a lot of high profile men that are speaking up and create. Making a difference. And now there's TikTok and men are speaking up and influencers and it's just, I think we're seeing a lot of change.

[Hannah]

So just gave me such hope because I know there's so many bad men on TikTok and I like, there's the bad ones too, highlighting the ones.

[Mackenzie]

I want to see that more on our show too, because like, I feel like you said it started in seventh grade, you were feeling these feelings of inadequacy and that's not something that a lot of people really acknowledge and so think it'd be great to say. So we here on the Dating Detectives, we call people that are liars. Like this person who said she was pregnant. We call them dogfish. So a catfish is basically like, you know, they're using someone else's picture online, pretending to be someone. A dogfish is like, they're who they say they are, but they are a liar. Or they're, you know, but they're pregnant with twins. Yeah, right. They're lying. Whatever. So this. So you got dogfish is what we say. And so there's a lot of. We have a lot of women that come on and they'll share their story about being dogfish. And a lot of them talk about feeling stupid. Like, I felt so stupid that he was able to do that to me. Or whatever. And so it's. It's nice to have a guy come on and tell his story. Like, I got duped, and it happens to.

[Hannah]

This is consistent across the genders. It's always smart, successful, wonderful people.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah. Did you ever feel stupid? Like, I can't believe she got me.

[Clayton]

Like, I had moments again. Like, I was. I saw stuff online because I get tagged and stuff all the time. So I saw people saying, like, he's just an idiot. And I. You know, I was like, am I? But then I went back and looked at the messages, and I was like, no, I think any one of these people would have fallen for this. I think when people. I was like, if you were in my shoes, like, you'd see. Again, you say that I'm stupid for believing this, but, like, she was good. She was really good at being believable.

[Mackenzie]

That's what we tell our guests all the time when they're telling their stories. They're like, gosh, I just felt so stupid. It's like, no, this has nothing to do with being smart or stupid. Like, this is. This is totally about them. Like, not you.

[Clayton]

The thought process I had at. At one point when I was like, do I believe this or do I not believe this? It was. I'm either dealing with the craziest woman I've ever met in my life, or she's telling the truth, and it was this or that. It was black or white. It was right or wrong. It was like, either she's the craziest.

[Mackenzie]

Woman I've ever crazy, or she's.

[Clayton]

Or she's telling the truth. And at first, my brain was not willing to believe that I was actually interacting with somebody this diabolical. It actually made more sense in my head that this woman had to be telling the truth because there's no way I'm actually dealing with this level of crazy. So, again, I tried to reason and put a rationale behind it, and I think most. That's what mostly everybody else would have done, too, is like, well, she's adamant. So, like, if someone's this adamant, like, either they're that off their rocker and I've met one of the craziest people to ever exist, or she's telling the truth. Which one's more likely? Probably the truth in this sense.

[Mackenzie]

Not me. I don't ever.

[Clayton]

Otherwise. Well, no, but it could be experience. You've been in this? Yes. Yes. Yeah. So, like, you're. Oh, you're already, like, on. And now I am, too. So now I'm like, you know, always on the lookout. But if you're innocent, like, I. I was all innocent until I went. Now I'm like, oh, wait, like, now I'm like, now I'm very cautious. Now I'm very, like, that's what we.

[Hannah]

Want this podcast to be. They're validating for people who have been through stuff and they can feel less alone or, you know, we're not trying to turn people off from love. We just want you to have that nice mix of optimism and caution and live through these stories through our podcast so you can learn from them.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

And I feel like yours will help a lot of people because you're right. Like, you don't go into a date or anything thinking, like, maybe they'll frame me and take me to court and ruin my life.

[Mackenzie]

Thank you so much for telling your story to us. I think our audience will especially appreciate it. I think it's interesting to have a nice, regular dude come on the show, tell a story like, hey, I got. I got, got duped. Like this. This woman took me for a ride. And I think it maybe will encourage more men to share their story and, like you said, like, make it, like, normalize men being able to be vulnerable, not have to have that. Yeah, to be vulnerable. Not have that hyper masculinity. Like, they can just kind of, you know. So I hope that more people have the conversations about what happened to them.

[Clayton]

It happens more than people realize. I tell people it's not common, but it's more common than you think. And I. And I had probably. I've had probably 15 DMS that people are like, my friend or my brother or my cousin was involved in a situation just like this. But I also, you know, like, as in they were being, you know, a girl claimed she's pregnant when she wasn't. But I've also had, you know, women say, like, hey, I went through something where I wasn't believed in the workplace, and this person tried to destroy me. And then, you know, and they were like, so in a way, I know how you feel. And so it's really cool when you're also able to connect with people that haven't went through that exact same thing, but something similar. And so you still can give those individuals hope.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, 100%. Yeah.

[Hannah]

Oh, 100%. And to honestly, to have a man that has your platform to connect with on that is rare. I think a lot of women are just kind of. We're surrounded by other women who are like, we got you, girl. And it's like, yeah, but we need everybody to support. And I hate that this happened to.

[Mackenzie]

You, but if this can happen to someone like him, then you're like, okay, then I don't feel so bad.

[Hannah]

Disclaimer. Wish it didn't happen to you.

[Clayton]

Yeah, yeah, well, right. But I think, again, two people, I've heard this. He doesn't look like a victim. And it's like, that's so messed up. Anybody can be a victim. Well, yeah, again, they, they. Because people think that, like, oh, he's got so much going for him. Boohoo. I don't feel bad for him. I've read that online and I was just like, that's crazy. It's like, you again, like, there's. It's. You take it on a case by case basis. That's my biggest thing is like, I. We should believe women all the same. You shouldn't hear my story. And they'd be like, well, I'm gonna not ever believe women ever again. It's like, that's not. You know, and that's. That was the. The concern on that people had was.

[Mackenzie]

Just to bring awareness.

[Clayton]

Like, let's just all understand that victims come in all different shapes and sizes, and anybody can be one. So stop downplaying and minimizing what someone's went through, because you just can't believe it.

[Hannah]

Like, because of who they are, regardless.

[Clayton]

Because of who they are. Like, stop. Like, take out your prejudice, take out your bias, and be open minded. Also question and ask yourself, where is this bias coming from? Why can't I see Clayton as the victim?

[Mackenzie]

What's the name of your podcast, by the way?

[Clayton]

It's called a Beyond the COVID And.

[Hannah]

You'Re still putting it out?

[Clayton]

Yeah, yeah, I'm still doing it. It's a mental health podcast. I enjoy it. I mean, because I've learned a lot. I'm learning a lot from women and I get to, you know, ask a lot of good questions that I probably should have learned years ago, but I didn't have sisters or whatever. And we now. Now I'm learning. And I was like, oh, my God.

[Hannah]

You learning publicly is so valuable to.

[Mackenzie]

Other men and relatable.

[Clayton]

Yeah, I mean, I share again. I'm like, I'm not embarrassed anymore. I'm like, I am what I am. Like, I love me for all that I am, even the shortcomings of, you know, kind of being a bonehead. Sometimes I look at it like, hey, like, you know, I. I love everything about me, even the stuff that I got to work on, because it's like, it's just because I am who I am, and, like, it's all. I'm not perfect. I don't. Yeah. I don't claim to be. If I lack in an area, then it's great. I put it out online on a podcast. I'm like, awesome. Like, you know, tell me what I lack so I can go focus on it. So people nowadays, they, like, he needs to work on this. I'm like, thank you. There goes that. That's. That's what I'm. That's what I'm going to lock in on for the next two months.

[Hannah]

Wow.

[Mackenzie]

Thank you again, so, so much. I really appreciate you. I'm going to. Now I want to. Can. Can you watch those on, like, Netflix? Like, where's the episodes?

[Clayton]

Or you saying all the. All the. The. The court cases?

[Mackenzie]

No, the. The Bachelor.

[Hannah]

Well, both.

[Mackenzie]

Like, please don't go watch it. It's fine.

[Clayton]

Well, there's. There's a. I will say for those that want to get caught up, there's a Justice for Clayton Instagram page, and they have basically documented it all in chronological order. They have, like, a little, like, story thing you can click on where it's like, begin here. And so I've been very blessed by these fans of the show and fans of me and just people that are now friends that I've met in person that showed up at the court that basically have created this Instagram page, and it's on Reddit as well, but they are posting constantly because they want her to be held accountable. So you can click on there. They have all the videos, the court hearings, if you want to dive into, like, all the court hearings. But then for the Bachelor stuff, I believe my season, the Bachelor, is now on Hulu.

[Mackenzie]

It was so nice to meet you and talk to you, and I'm grateful that you came here to tell your story. And now you're a part of our. Our community of sleuthies that just kind of, you know, enjoy these. I think it just. Anytime someone tells their story, it just makes people feel less alone. So thank you again, so, so much. It's so nice to have you.

[Clayton]

Yeah. Yeah. Thanks, guys, for giving me a voice on your platform. I really appreciate it.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, thank you. Yikes. I'm excited, you guys. I love a Hannah Dogfish debrief. I know. I. I really do, because I really feel like they're always so thoughtful, and you always catch things that, like, I didn't catch, so I'm dying.

[Hannah]

Mackenzie. I feel the same way because I feel like you have such a great personality, perspective and sense of humor about that bleak perspective. It's the best combo. I hope you know that, like, the way that you have filtered things through your experience but also managed to, like, be informative and light about it is like, I think the reason that you.

[Mackenzie]

Stand out because I love you so much.

[Hannah]

We don't lose complete hope when we hear about what you've seen.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, It's. It's like, oh, okay, well, we know that exists now, but no. So, okay. Girl.

[Hannah]

Clayton. I'm glad that Clayton and the other boys and that they are, you know, feeling vindicated and that they've gotten legal support for her, because I do think she's a. She's a nut. She's a psycho. She's.

[Mackenzie]

Were you genuinely shocked when you realize when you, like, in the part of the story who's like, there was more victims? I was shocked.

[Hannah]

Yeah, I was shocked.

[Mackenzie]

I was like, there's no way she's doing this to more than one person. Or no way that she's just doing this, like, all willy nilly all the time. Like, there's no way.

[Hannah]

It's diabolical.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, it is. It is.

[Hannah]

I also think that he's famous, so it made sense to me that she would be targeting only a famous person, which is very common. And, you know, there are things. This is a. He's not anonymous. Just so you know, we have to be a bit delicate in the way we speak about his case, just because for like many, you know, we're. It's a real case and usually our cases are anonymous, so.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Hannah]

But like, I was just thinking about other cases where trapping is kind of what they call it, where it's like women try to get pregnant with somebody's baby so that they can get their child support forever. And it's like NFL and sportsball people. And I think the main takeaway that I would say I have from her behavior is that she is taking advantage of a system that is built by other women. Abused women. Yeah. And women who have had to fight for support for keeping themselves in their child alive, really.

[Mackenzie]

Pregnancies. You know what I mean? Like that. Yeah.

[Hannah]

Yeah. And I don't know.

[Mackenzie]

Right.

[Hannah]

I was nervous on it. It's nice that you started and you're like, I'm so excited to talk about this with you. And I'm like, I'm excited, but I've been nervous because I think it's a really delicate conversation that I don't have answers for. So just I wanted to Just level with everybody and be like, this is ongoing. I don't think we have to be perfect in the way we. Com. Have this conversation as long as we have it. So.

[Mackenzie]

Well, here's why it's hard, in my opinion.

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Mackenzie]

The reason that it's hard is because as women, generally speaking, we have more sympathy for a woman. And so when we think of, oh, this guy got conned by this woman, it's like, oh, but then he shouldn't have put his pee in her V. Or he shouldn't have put himself in a position where she could say that. Or. Do you know what I mean?

[Hannah]

I'm not. I wouldn't say guilty. I'm just acknowledging my bias. Like, I'm someone who jokes, but it's a half joke where I'm like, I support women's rights and women's wrongs. You know, like, I'm usually like the first person to step up and be like, you know, I always say, like, equity more than equality. It's like, yeah, when women have, like. He talked about getting an order of protection and how it was diff. More difficult for him as a man to get it than a woman. And that's a difficult thing because in many cases, I do understand statistically why women have an easier time getting that kind of support, because, I mean, stalkers are typically men. Like, that's just the numbers. That is absolutely not to say that he didn't have total rights to that protection as well. And I know that he. I appreciate his understanding of the conversation where he. And I feel for him to feel like I am nervous to come forward because I know that what I say will hurt women who really should be believed. And I know that, yeah, this is something I can't do without that part of the. The conversation involved. And I just, I. I can't imagine. And I hope that we, you know, we kind of said it when we.

[Mackenzie]

Talked to him like, women should be protected, but men should be, too, if they're going through, you know, it's. It's hard. But also, whenever you brought up earlier about the other victims and how they're not famous. Right. And so that's why they couldn't get the help they needed because they're not famous. And I thought that was interesting, too, was that they. When you're in the public eye, then you have, you know, it's more likely someone's going to reach out and say, hey, we'll do this for you pro bono. Because then they want to put their name attached to your name. So that they can say they worked or whatever, you know, because now it's. It's in the public eye.

[Hannah]

But when re. Access to resources, too.

[Mackenzie]

Yes, access to resources. But these other victims were not famous, and so I think that played a role too. So all of it all together is just crazy interesting.

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Mackenzie]

I would love to hear more men telling their story, and I want to create a safe place for men to tell their story of being dogfish. Like, it can't just be only women out here or only men out here dog fishing.

[Hannah]

Oh, absolutely not. And I think. I think it's also. Okay. Like, a lot of people, I'm, like, looking at the comments, people saying, like, yeah, I did look at it differently, and I don't think that's a bad thing. Like, we can look at these scenarios differently as long as we look at them with the same number level of compassion and just know that we are trying to. But we are, you know, products of our experience, and we are both people who have gone through abuse and like, yep, it is. It's different. That's why his story is important. And I'm glad he has a podcast. Beyond the COVID Guys, go listen.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, beyond the COVID And everybody. I just feel like there were so many people with differing opinions.

[Hannah]

Can I read some? Yeah, please.

[Mackenzie]

No, I was just gonna say no one was, like, outlandishly, like, disrespectful or unkind. And that just goes to show you it's possible to disagree but still have respect and love for one another. But, yeah, read some of the comments.

[Hannah]

Period. Okay. Someone said, first I didn't believe the guy, but when it got to the twins, I just knew he's dealing with the psycho. Yeah. The. Somebody also asked about, like, why don't we just do a paternity test test and call it a day? Which this episode answered. But having twins involved. A lot of times paternity tests are not as credible because there's a chance that it could be two different.

[Mackenzie]

Yep. Two different dads. And that's. I thought that was interesting, too.

[Hannah]

I had no idea.

[Mackenzie]

But for her to know that you gotta do some research. Like, you gotta. You have had to either do this before or do a lot of research. Like, there was a lot of research that went into conning Clayton. If this was a giant con, she put a lot of effort into it.

[Hannah]

No, they know what dogfish know. What they're. They're very good at what they do.

[Mackenzie]

That's why we always. Everybody's like, oh, I feel so dumb. Like, don't don't feel dumb when something like this happens to you, because these are people who, like you said, diabolical.

[Hannah]

There's people have. Some of you have followed the case. There are other resources. Go take a look if you want to hear more about his case. He's very open about it. Some people are like, it happens to men as much as women, really? Which is like, yeah, there's nothing. Not clear evidence on any of it. And I think it's different cases, but they're happening to everybody. I did already mention the sub. The comment that was like. It was a roller coaster because in the beginning I believed what he said. Then my femme tuition told me he was. But the further into the story I got, the more I thought about why I kept doubting him. I think I just have this mistrust of men trying to convince everyone that they're not the father.

[Mackenzie]

Yep.

[Hannah]

If I can believe in the women on this podcast, then I can also believe in the men. I don't know. Just had to share my thoughts with someone and I think that kind of skepticism. I wouldn't beat yourself up for having that distrust, because that is real. But it's also so amazing that you can be like, let me look inward.

[Mackenzie]

And decide and acknowledge that there could be, you know, some. There could be some like, he, you know, there could be some truth to what he's saying.

[Hannah]

But your experience shapes your worldview and your experience is real. So I don't want. If you're somebody that's, like, uncomfortable by certain situations or certain types of people based on what you've been through, as long as you're not hurting anybody, like, protect yourself and validate that experience and, you know, work through that with your own healing journey. I'm. This is a longer conversation, but you know what I mean? Like, I understand people who are like, I'm uncomfortable by my experience with this type of person. I know that not all of that type of person is a villain, but it's okay that I'm still dealing with trauma.

[Mackenzie]

And I think that a lot of people really struggled with the fact that he was. He's a cocky guy. Like, this guy knows. He knows he's good looking. He knows that he's successful. He knows that he was on these shows. He feels cool about it. He loves that he can get whatever woman he wants, you know? You know what I mean? Like, he knows that about himself and it makes him a little cocky. And I think that that lack or that perception of a lack of humility puts people off and they'll be like, this guy is a cocky son of a bitch. Whatever, you know? But then also to be like, he's cocky, but also a victim. For a lot of people, that doesn't calculate. It's like, you know, recalculating. Recalculate. It doesn't make sense to them that someone can be so cocky, but also a victim.

[Hannah]

I agree. And to that point, somebody did comment, and I appreciate them reaching out. I haven't looked into the Blake. They said, I hope you guys update the whole Blake Lively situation. We talked about that as. I just brought it up as an example of the perfect victim concept, which is what you just described, where it's like, we kind of expect our victims to be, like, exactly fitting the perfect bill, where that is not realistic, nor is that fair to that specific scene. I haven't looked into it, so I will. They just were like, you know, more has come out, and they have their opinions about it, so it's. That's fair. I'll look into it more. But that's not, you know, the. The case we were talking about, it was more just a pop culture example. But. Yeah, yeah, I. Yeah, that's a. That's a tricky one. Celebrity cases, I think, are used to be examples for everything in our personal lives, and they're different. There are a different number of resources.

[Mackenzie]

Yep.

[Hannah]

Which is a good thing because I think people like I. I loved when Taylor Swift sued the guy that touched her for a dollar. Like, she was like, I'm not here for the money. I just like the principal point. Yeah, yeah, I'm making a point. And it was like, that kind of thing is what, you know, Clayton is able to do in some ways. Like, people who have a platform can use it for that, but it's also, like, with a grain of salt, like, they're in a different world. Then. I love this comment. Somebody was like, you guys are so respectful and considerate in the debriefs, but sometimes, like, we can. I think we think that pointing out lessons learned is equal to being judgmental, which I'm going to think about. I don't know that I can't think.

[Mackenzie]

I would like an example of that.

[Hannah]

Yeah. I think maybe they're just saying, like, we could. I think sometimes people want us to say, like, they should have done this differently to protect themselves, which is really not what we're here to do. We're just here to move forward. Like, we're not here to tell. Tell anyone that they did anything wrong, because we. It's not what they're asking from us. You know, like, I don't give advice unless someone asks me for advice.

[Mackenzie]

Right.

[Hannah]

And I'm not qualified to say, you know, if you had really had this protection in place, you wouldn't have been dogfished. It's more just like, we hear the story, we validate the story, and then we say, what can we learn from the story?

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, yeah, no, I. I agree with you. I think there's a lesson to be learned from everything, whether or not we feel like you did something wrong. I guess I just. I would really like an example of that, though. I would like to know more about. Like, I would like that in more context. I would.

[Hannah]

Sure.

[Clayton]

That's.

[Mackenzie]

That's a good conversation to have.

[Hannah]

This is fun. We should do this on Patreon, where we just kind of read comments from you guys and. And respond, because sometimes our response is, like, fair. We don't really know what. What exactly to do right now, but let's talk about it. And then that was just on, like. Like, Spotify. So I know most of the comments are just, like, support for Clayton, honestly. And a lot of you just think this is crazy, the fact that she's done this more than once, and it's so sad and it's so unfair to people who genuinely need these systems in place. And that goes for all kinds of abuse. I'm really. It's very upsetting.

[Mackenzie]

And also, this is just his story. Like, this is like, we. Like, that's just his side of the story. We don't know. Like, I would love to hear from her and be like, well, this is what I like. Do you know what I mean? Like, come tell me what. Come tell me your side.

[Hannah]

Oh, this is unrelated. I'm going back. I did a little research on how to fake a pregnancy test, which I'm not saying that's what she did. I was just curious. I didn't, like, get a tutorial or anything, which I don't think we need. I don't want to. What if I was, like. Like, on Instagram, like, hey, guys, here's a quick tutorial on how to fake a pregnancy test to trap your man. That would be. Kick me off the app. There's, like, a hormone. The HCG hormone is something that people can use to take apart pregnancy tests, but we don't know. I mean, maybe she was pregnant with somebody else's baby.

[Mackenzie]

So there are, like, you take an HCG test to find out, like, if you're ovulating, if you're pregnant, and that, like, it's an immediate. Like, you pee on a strip and that's it. Right. But, like, how. Where would you get positive hcg?

[Hannah]

I mean, I don't know. I don't know. It's hard. I'm not saying just look it up. If you're worried or something, go on the Google machine.

[Mackenzie]

You'll find it. But, like, it's interesting that something like that is even possible. It's one thing to give, like, an ultrasound, a fake ultrasound image or whatever.

[Hannah]

But then that was so funny, honestly, that he, like, she had already been caught for just pulling it from Google. So she was like, let me be smarter this time.

[Mackenzie]

Okay. So I was reading, and I. I was reading an audiobook. I was reading an audiobook.

[Hannah]

That counts. That counts.

[Mackenzie]

I. And one part of the. They were talking about how someone said I had to make sure to use the go to the 20th page of Google search images so that it couldn't easily be traced back. And I was like, so that's the trick if you want to. Because people aren't going to scroll through 20 pages. Mackenzie Fultz will. I will scroll through 700 and the sleuthis. Like, I. I have nothing but time. Like, I will scroll through all the. Don't put it past me to go through page 765 of the Google images. Like, yes, I will. But, like, I will. I will hit next until kingdom comes. Say I won't, but most people won't. And so I thought that was really interesting. That was an interesting tidbit that, like, the further. The deeper it is on the Google machine, the less likely an image.

[Clayton]

Yeah.

[Mackenzie]

That it'll be found. Gosh, that's crazy, y'all.

[Hannah]

If we didn't talk about anything, there was a lot here. So let us know if there's more that you want us to go into on Patreon. Like, if we just, like, there's a topic we didn't quite hit.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

I think new people. Thank you. If you're a new Bachelor listener. If you came from. We were on. We met at Acme, another dating podcast, not that long ago during the holidays. So we didn't really talk as much about it, but go listen to that episode. And then the medical detectives.

[Mackenzie]

I know we're called the dating detectives, but this is so much more than dating. This is marriages, this is friendships. This is work relationships. Like, I think dating Detectives was more of an initial concept, but, like. And so, like, the name stuff. Double dates.

[Hannah]

The name is amazing.

[Mackenzie]

It is kind of amazing, but it's so much more than dating, too. So just keep that in mind when you're submitting your stories. Like, this isn't just about dating. Like, this is. We've talked to people who've been in like 20 year marriages and they've. They're getting dogfish. Like, you know what I mean? So it's so much more people that have work relationships with someone who wasn't who they said they were and you freaking name it.

[Hannah]

So here, all of you. And if it's medical, go to the medical detectives now, because there's an expanded network of detectives so many people have.

[Mackenzie]

Said such good things about. And there's only been one episode.

[Hannah]

I'm so excited. It's necessary. I think it's important. And they're fun hosts, so that's. Hopefully that's what makes it easier to digest.

[Mackenzie]

Like you said earlier, everyone's gone through something like medical or has it know somebody who went through something where it was like, no way. Like, that's crazy. Have you ever seen that show Sex Sent me to the er?

[Hannah]

I have not seen it, but I do know what you're talking about.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah. And it's like people that, like, they were doing something, something. A little situation and they had to go to the ER and get something yanked out or cut out or.

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Mackenzie]

Shoved in or something.

[Hannah]

I feel like every nurse specifically has stories of like the things that they. The objects.

[Mackenzie]

Nurses have some stories. So many medical staff. Yeah. I wild. I just.

[Hannah]

Oh, my God. That's their. They should do that as their Patreon. They. They keep it serious. And then on Patreon, they're just like. And another episode of things. Nurses have pulled out a bus.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, my gosh, that's so funny. They're gonna be like, the medical community knows what's up. Like, they're like, yeah, you guys, you guys have no idea the things that happen in the, in the hospital, in the er.

[Hannah]

We. Wow. Thank you for talking to me. I needed a combo of distraction and also just this is a crazy story and we had a lot of things to cover today.

[Mackenzie]

I'll be honest with you, I think, and tell me if I'm wrong, but it's almost like, like you kind of understand both sides. If someone hates him or if someone loves him or if someone doesn't defend him or if they do, I can see both sides of that. And so that's a little. It's like, oh, gosh, how should I feel if you don't know or you haven't like you said ironed out your feelings about it, then that's okay too. Do you know what I mean? And it's not. It ain't that serial. Like, oh, we're here to tell a story. And that's what our goal is, is to share these stories and talk about them, bring awareness to them and just, just make it clear that these are things that really happen to people.

[Hannah]

So. And the case, you know, is a case that exists so you can go look up more about it. And I'm glad that he feels, you know, safe from the situation because, you know, it's all his. It's him telling his side of the story. It's our opinions. They are not representative of anything other than us as individuals. And I'm really grateful that he's. And all of those men got that, that process to work for them, but I also am glad that we get to talk about the implications of that.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah. And that's, it's kind of really scary. But anyways, your, your thoughts and opinions are so important to us. And so leave a comment on the social media, on the Spotify or wherever you listen, we appreciate it. We also appreciate a five star review. So if you get a chance to give us a five star review wherever you listen, we really appreciate it and that helps us to grow the podcast. So thank you for your support and we just, we love you so much. So send us your stories.

[Hannah]

Say the email one more time just.

[Mackenzie]

So you investigate at the Dating Detectives podcast dot com. Oh, I almost lost.

[Hannah]

Sometimes we forget the email, guys. But we've gotten so much better.

[Mackenzie]

Why is it so long?

[Hannah]

We gotta keep ourselves on our toes.

[Mackenzie]

It's all the words and all the plurals.

[Clayton]

Okay?

[Hannah]

That's in the show notes. Everything's in the show notes. The medical detectives. A link to that is in the show notes. Patreon is in the show notes. And our. Our love is in the show notes. Just know it is. Okay? Just feel it.

[Mackenzie]

We love you guys and yeah, thank you, thank you for listening. We love you so, so much. And as always, trust your family.