The Stalker: Part 2

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Dating Detectives – "The Stalker: Part 2"

Release Date: February 3, 2025

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Introduction

In the second installment of "The Stalker" series, hosts Mackenzie Fultz, a seasoned Private Investigator, and Hanna Anderson, a comedian with a sharp wit, delve deeper into Carrie’s harrowing experience with relentless stalking. This episode not only recounts Carrie’s ongoing battle but also explores the broader implications of stalking in the digital age, offering listeners valuable insights and practical advice.

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Recap of Part 1

The episode begins with a brief recap of the previous discussion, highlighting Carrie’s initial encounters with her stalker, Jack. Carrie, a divorced mother, met Jack through Facebook Dating. Despite his misleading older photos—a tactic they refer to as "age fishing"—they proceeded to date. The relationship took a dark turn when Jack's obsessive behavior surfaced, including sending an engagement ring prematurely and escalating to emotional outbursts upon confrontation.

Notable Quote:

• Hannah (00:59): “The hard thing about this story is that there's really nothing I think Carrie could have done differently to change her situation.”

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Escalation of Stalking Behavior

Following a particularly emotional second date, Jack’s behavior intensified. Carrie began noticing strange occurrences: his unauthorized entries into her home, manipulation of her personal belongings, and hacking attempts on her phone. These subtle yet invasive actions created an environment of constant fear and uncertainty.

Notable Quote:

• Hannah (04:54): “Oh, yeah. First there were things going on with her phone. She was like, why is my phone, like, losing battery, acting weird.”

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Filing for Protection

Determined to regain control, Carrie sought help from Domestic Violence Services and decided to file for a Protection From Abuse (PFA) order. Despite initial skepticism from legal representatives regarding the viability of her case—due to the absence of an intimate partner relationship—Carrie persisted, representing herself in court.

Notable Quote:

• Carrie (14:55): “I decided to file a protection from abuse, knowing that it may be risky doing that.”

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Challenges with the Legal System

Carrie’s journey through the legal system was fraught with challenges. Her attempts to obtain a permanent PFA were met with bureaucratic hurdles and inadequate support from law enforcement. The existing PFA laws did not sufficiently cover stalking without an intimate relationship, leaving her vulnerable.

Notable Quote:

• Hannah (15:43): “The more money you have, the better you can handle this. It is just a pricey thing right now.”

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Community and Support Systems

Throughout her ordeal, Carrie emphasized the importance of community support. Her friends played a crucial role in uncovering additional information about Jack, including past victims, which bolstered her case. The importance of not feeling isolated and having a support network was a recurring theme.

Notable Quote:

• Hannah (20:20): “This is why we gossip. Gossip saves lives.”

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Cyber Stalking and Security Measures

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to the cyber aspects of stalking. Carrie detailed how her phone was hacked, leading to unauthorized access to her personal information. The hosts discussed various security measures, including secure phone services and the challenges of combating cyber stalking without adequate resources.

Notable Quote:

• Carrie (44:35): “The only way I found out that that was happening to my phone was my weather app that I bring. I wasn't getting texts weeks and weeks ago.”

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Advocacy and Legal Reforms

Carrie is actively involved in advocating for legal reforms to better protect stalking victims. Collaborating with domestic violence services and state representatives, she is pushing for laws that specifically address stalking, regardless of the nature of the relationship between the victim and perpetrator.

Notable Quote:

• Carrie (52:50): “We have been touring around, talking to state representatives to get laws changed for a stalking PFA because the regular PFA doesn't cover a stalking situation.”

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Recommendations and Resources

The hosts provided practical advice for those facing similar situations. Recommendations include:

• Hiring Private Investigators: Professional surveillance can legally document stalking behaviors.
• Enhanced Security Measures: Using secure phone services like Google Voice or IFani, and considering secure mobile phones.
• Community Support: Maintaining open communication with friends and family to ensure support and validation.
• Legal Documentation: Keeping detailed records and journaling incidents to support legal actions.

Notable Quote:

• Mackenzie (64:08): “If you can hire a private investigator, do so. They can legally document what the stalker is doing day by day.”

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Conclusion

"The Stalker: Part 2" sheds light on the multifaceted challenges victims face, from legal inadequacies to cyber invasions. Carrie’s courage in sharing her story serves as a beacon for others in similar situations, emphasizing the need for community support, legal reform, and increased awareness of stalking behaviors. The episode concludes with a call to action for listeners to support advocacy efforts and utilize available resources to combat stalking effectively.

Notable Quote:

• Mackenzie (62:25): “The more we talk about it, the louder we are. The squeaky wheel gets the grease.”

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Additional Resources Mentioned

• Book Club: Antidote for a Stalker by Mike Proctor – A comprehensive guide on understanding and combating stalking.
• Helplines: National Domestic Violence Hotline – 1-800-799-7233
• Secure Phone Services: IFani, Google Voice
• Private Investigation Services: Recommended for legal surveillance and documentation.

Listeners are encouraged to join the podcast’s Patreon for exclusive content, including book club discussions and updates on Carrie’s case.

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Final Thoughts

This episode not only narrates a personal struggle but also underscores the systemic gaps in protecting stalking victims. Mackenzie and Hanna’s passionate discourse highlights the urgent need for societal and legal advancements to address and mitigate the pervasive issue of stalking in the modern dating landscape.

Transcript

[Hannah]

The following program contains names, places and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following program is provided for entertainment purposes only, and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances. If you or a loved one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic violence hotline at 1-800-799-7233 for support. Hello, everybody. Welcome back.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, it's recording.

[Hannah]

No, you're not.

[Mackenzie]

Y'all know I don't math, so the countdown didn't work out for me. I'm just kidding. Sorry. Hi. Happy Monday.

[Hannah]

Hello, my love. We're back for part two.

[Mackenzie]

So last week. Today is going to be the second half of last week's episode. Hannah, will you recap last week's for us, please?

[Hannah]

Yes, definitely. Go back and listen. Carrie is our guest. She told us the beginning of this story. And the hard thing about this story is that there's really nothing, I think Carrie could have done differently to change her situation.

[Mackenzie]

She's doing everything right.

[Hannah]

Yeah, she. And even if you don't do everything right, it doesn't mean that you deserve any kind of abuse or harassment, but it's nice to know that there are things you can do to prevent it. And stalking is so, so tricky because it's just easy. It's easy for someone to start doing it and it's very hard to stop it. So this is a stalking case. Carrie met a guy online. She is divorced, has a son. She lives alone. She meets a guy on. I think it was Facebook dating. Yeah, his name is Jack. They talk. Does not give him her address, her location. She doesn't give him a ton of personal information.

[Mackenzie]

They.

[Hannah]

They go on a date, they meet there. It's fine. She said his picture was like, you know, probably from 10 years before. Like, he was not catfishing per se, but age fishing. And so she wasn't super into him, but she was like, you know, it's. I don't hate him. Date him till you hate him then. Yeah, right. Then he sent her an engagement ring. Link via text in between the first date and the second date.

[Mackenzie]

And she was like wasting no time. Like a red flag. That's red flag.

[Hannah]

Big red flag. But then he was like, oh, I didn't mean to. Like, I didn't, I didn't. That was an accident. And she is, you know, very strong willed person. She's done so much for her community. She's very religious, and she just was like, I commit to my word. I'm gonna go on a second date with him, Even though I'm not sure how I feel. They go on this date. They meet at a mall. She drives to the mall, meets at the mall. She does drive with him to where they go on the date, but, like, he didn't pick her up at her house. He tells her that moves. Yes. No, she's doing everything right. He tells her that her religious expectations for him, even though he had previously said that he was totally the same, were too high. He was like, no man is going to meet what you're expecting. And she was like, you know, thank you so much for telling me, because then we're probably not a match. And she kindly said, okay, well, then this probably won't work. He freaks out, starts like, crying, starts getting angry.

[Mackenzie]

Temper tantrum. Toddler, like, toddler.

[Hannah]

Toddler to the max. He drives her back. She's stonewalling. You know, I was trying to think of the word for it when we were talking, but it's just when you're kind of like, I'm just going to be really calm and nice so I can get out of this situation, you know, she's like, oh, it's okay.

[Mackenzie]

It's possible.

[Hannah]

Just like, yeah, she has to be a smile and a therapist. Yeah, smiling. Wave, boys. She gets out of the car, goes back to her car. He drives away like a bat out of hell. Like, skidding, like. Like angry driving. And he was driving, like, angrily. That's it. That's the last time she saw him. And then I think he called her because he was so upset that night. And she kind of talked to him for a little bit and then was like, okay, hon, you're gonna be okay. I gotta go to church tomorrow. Good night. And then the stalking began. And he started showing up around her in other cars and, like, doing the same kind of driving recklessly moves that she identified as him. You know, your femme tuition is good. When she knew, she noticed. Oh, yeah. First there were things going on with her phone. She was like, why is my phone, like, losing battery, acting weird. And where we left off is her coming home and realizing that one of her pillows, which she usually has the design facing out, is facing backwards. And while that might seem like something that's small, I think a lot of us will relate to the idea that, like, no, you know where your stuff is, but also know how you, like.

[Mackenzie]

Most of us also, at the same time are like, no, there's no way. That's totally me. And we go to. We're like, okay, that was.

[Hannah]

That's true.

[Mackenzie]

That was just me.

[Hannah]

You're like, there's no way.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah. So the rest of her story is. It's. Wait till you guys hear it. But also real quick, before we hear from Carrie for the second part of her story, make sure you join us on the Patreon. It's $5 a month and we're gonna be keeping updates there and we're gonna be doing book club, which, by the way, January was Stalking awareness month, so it was perfect that this episode was started in January. And so we're gonna be talking about Mike Proctor's book, Antidote for a Stalker. So make sure you join us. What's the date, Hannah?

[Hannah]

We're going to do it on. We literally just picked this and I already forgot. February. The last Sunday in February. February 23rd.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So February 23rd. Join us for book club. The link to our Patreon's in the show notes, so you can join us there.

[Hannah]

Carrie recommended Mike Proctor, so yeah, she's spoken to him.

[Mackenzie]

So we were like, let's. And I'm. I'm trying to see. I want to see if we can get him to talk.

[Hannah]

Talk with us.

[Mackenzie]

So I'm trying to connect with him, but if not, it would be really great to. The book is big, but it's not. It's a. It's a non fiction book. So you can like kind of start in the middle and, you know, pinpoint different areas you want to learn about.

[Hannah]

Pro Tip, don't tell. There's not an audiobook, but on our Patreon, I'm going to read it and post the recording so you can listen to that.

[Mackenzie]

Are you ready to get into Carrie's story? Let's. I think we should jump into it.

[Hannah]

We have to.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah. Okay, let's do it. Let's do it.

[Carrie]

And then by the next day, I thought exactly what you said before I had decided to call the police because I said, this is just weird to me because I don't do that. And my friends who know me, they will tell you that I am very much like in your. In the place, in its place kind of person. And that ended up being the first of many times that he broke into my home and my house was broken into, but didn't look like a break in. So the police couldn't do anything. But they did do reports before I found the door that this guy was literally getting in my house. And it even had latches on it that were sort of like, like an L shape. So my door that was being broken into. Now I know what, which one it was. It is an out swinging door. Those are very hard to secure with an in swinging door. You can use a jam bar. There are, there are things for deadbolts that they're like little flaps that you can get. Because my doors all had deadbolts and regular locks on the door and people.

[Mackenzie]

But when it's out swinging, you can't. You. You have no recourse.

[Carrie]

No, exactly. So I'm now renting my house at this point in this other area. And my landlord had these other things put on. So there's just certain ones that can be put on out swinging doors. So they're extra latches, but they were just like these L shaped things that just kind of sit into like a circle, if you can get the picture. I don't know if I'm painting it right, but. Yeah, but it's not, there's not like something to hold it necessarily other than that. It's just you swing it and it drops into this thing and that's all it is. And then you pop it up and it swings out and it's that kind of thing. So I figured out that the door that he was getting into my house was this door that had these latches on that was the outswinging door. Because I think what he was doing was he was undoing the deadbolt, he was undoing the lock and then he was either sticking like a ruler or something and popping those locks up. And so I had no idea until September 10th. And I remember this day because it was a really good day at church. And I went home and I was just la la know, doing these things. And then I go in the bathroom and every other hook is off of.

[Mackenzie]

My shower curtain just enough to be noticeable.

[Carrie]

Yes.

[Hannah]

And so that's like sadistic. He's trying.

[Carrie]

Yes. And so that's obviously not something he.

[Mackenzie]

Wants you to know that you were there. He was there.

[Carrie]

Yes, exactly. And then the other thing that he did, which this is, this was the most. I don't even know. This is emotional. Again, I'm getting emotional.

[Mackenzie]

Like I'm.

[Carrie]

This part is emotional for me because I didn't notice too much of anything else. But I ended up sitting in my recliner after church and I was reading my Bible. And then I'm like, you know what? Let me go get my, my brother, my who passed away, let me go get his Bible. And I Just want to look at it and stuff. So I go get his Bible, which is in my room, and it's on one of my shelves and I open it up and there were. The first few pages were ripped out of my brother's Bible. And as you can imagine that I don't even know how to explain it. But I think because this guy obviously knew God was very important to me, those kinds of things were important. I don't know if he realized that that was my brother's Bible. He probably did. But if you open any kind of Bible, there's a page that is like, like the COVID like the first page that's kind of a nicer page. And then there's like the topic topical and you know, how to find the books of the Bible. So those pages were the pages that were ripped out. So it was very. That I would not have done that because my brother's Bible was intact. And how I know that was months earlier. I had been using that Bible to study for a retreat that I was going to speak at. And using that Bible. And I know the pages were there. And so I knew at that point there was someone who had been in my home again. And I don't know if it was that day or what day it was. It usually was my house would be the target, usually when I was at church. And so I started praying, knows you're.

[Hannah]

Going to be gone every.

[Carrie]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

Sunday or whatever it is like.

[Carrie]

And so I start praying and I'm like, God, you have to show me what door is. Is, is breaking. He's breaking into this. So I figured out, I went over to that door and see, I didn't use that door to go out of my house. I used my other doors. And so I didn't realize that when the landlord had installed these, these other latches to it, I didn't realize that's where he could break in. Because I'm thinking it's safe because of the hook, you know, the hook latches or whatever. Well, I go over to it and it's loose as anything. These latches are loose as anything. And they were tight as anything when they were first installed. And so I realized it was that door that he was breaking into. So what I did. This is actually really funny. I went out and got some clear gorilla tape and I taped that sucker on the outside and the inside. I put clear tape on the deadbolt. So I thought, you come up to that door again to try to break in my house, you are not getting in. And I. I taped that thing she.

[Mackenzie]

Taped her door shut I love was.

[Hannah]

Like a chaperone at a field trip.

[Mackenzie]

Did it help?

[Carrie]

It did. Because I will say that was the last time that I know someone was in my house. And so, you know, that's like a horror movie.

[Hannah]

Literally what happens in horror movies when.

[Mackenzie]

You think of, when people think of stalking, I think many people don't realize how scary that is. You, there is so much fear. Even if you know this person and you've met this person, whatever, and it's someone that is intruding in your space without your knowledge and your safe place, which is supposed to be your home or your vehicle or whatever, it is so intrusive. And that fear, you just have this like this fear like you're angry, but you are just like someone was in my personal bubble and they're so close to you. And that is so. It is the scariest feeling you will ever feel. It is so scary.

[Hannah]

It's powerless too.

[Mackenzie]

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[Carrie]

So in November, then, I did decide to file for a protection from abuse, knowing that it may be risky doing that. But I called the. I called the Domestic Violence Services, which I love them.

[Mackenzie]

Good. We don't talk enough about those.

[Carrie]

I know. And they are a great resource, especially for someone going through stalking. They. In my area, anyway, they were not dealing with stalking until I went to them and they started hearing my story and realizing that they were very deficient in that area.

[Mackenzie]

Yes, There needs to be more education, for sure.

[Carrie]

And all around with everybody. And so I decided to file a protection from abuse. And Domestic Violence Services has lawyers that you go to, and they're kind of connected, partnered. And so I was talking to this lawyer and she said, well, I don't think you're going to get this pfa. And so I was really upset because I thought, well, I'm going to file it. And at that point, I believe Domestic Violence Services helped me. The very first one, you get a temporary, and then the second hearing is to be the final hearing. And so the Domestic Violence Services lady came with me, went to court, the judge heard my story. She granted me a temporary pfa.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, good.

[Carrie]

So. But when I was talking to the lawyer, she told me, there's no way that you'll get this bfa, so I'm not going to represent you.

[Hannah]

So I thought, excuse me.

[Carrie]

Oh, okay.

[Mackenzie]

Very much.

[Hannah]

Did she say why? Just because you didn't have enough evidence?

[Carrie]

Exactly. That's exactly what she said.

[Hannah]

Even though you had, like, the written threats on your life, that's not enough.

[Carrie]

Yes, apparently that's not. That wasn't enough for her because a pfa, at least in the state, says that you have to have an intimate partner relationship. And of course, we did not have an intimate partner relationship.

[Mackenzie]

Lamb, huh?

[Carrie]

Yes, very much so. So she didn't represent me. So I went to a private lawyer and I started asking him, and he's like, well, I agree with her. You're not going to get this. And so, you know, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you're not going to get this. So I just thought, okay, well, here we go. I'm like, game on, like Donkey Kong, and I'm going to represent myself.

[Hannah]

So.

[Carrie]

So that is what I did. Because at this point, whether I get it or I Don't get it. This. I'm going to call him stalker now. He will know that I'm filing for a pfa. So I.

[Hannah]

You mean.

[Carrie]

Yeah, exactly. And I thought, okay, so if I don't get it, you know, he's going to know and he's going to come after me. If I do get it, he's going to know and then he's going to come after me. But at least if I have it, I have some basis that the police can literally arrest him on the spot compared to going to have to get a warrant for his arrest. And they will be able. So I've made it very easy for the police, not necessarily for myself, because it's just kind of a piece of paper. But all that to say, here I am now, the second week, he doesn't show up. The officer I'm dealing with, she says that he got served and he never showed up. So we had to go to a third week. So the third week, go to court, he doesn't show up. The judge says there can't be a hearing because he never got served. And at this point, I have an email that I'm showing the court clerk, and I'm like, he got served three weeks ago. And I said, so I know he's been served. And she's like, well, if you need to go to the sheriff's office, because they're the ones who deal with that, so go down to the sheriff's office. Of course, I'm looking all professional because I'm representing myself, thinking, we're going to have a hearing, I'm going to have to talk to the judge. And so go to the sheriff's office. I walk in and there's just one lady there, and she's like, can I help you? And I'm like, can you please help me?

[Hannah]

Yes, please.

[Carrie]

I said, there's this issue with this PFA and I need someone to look into this. And so she goes and gets one of the deputies, who then calls another deputy. So we're all talking about this. In the meantime, I'm telling them all of this stuff that I found on this guy because I found so many things. So many things. At that point, there is actually an article that a newspaper wrote about this guy 10 years ago that he has another victim. Oh, a girl that he dated.

[Mackenzie]

That's what we need, baby.

[Carrie]

Then the fiance, she actually lived in my area. And so he had literally snuck into her house apparently one night. And this is after they were broken up and was in her shower waiting for her to come home and beat her up and held her captive and. So why are he in jail? Exactly.

[Hannah]

The movie Psycho.

[Carrie]

Yes. Yes. This is what I'm talking about. And remember, but this is 10 years ago.

[Hannah]

Was that hard for you to find?

[Carrie]

No.

[Hannah]

Well, it's interesting how, like, how'd you find it?

[Carrie]

So. So there's always a story to my story. So even before I decided to file a pfa, I didn't think I qualified for it. So I was just searching, searching, searching. So I have a good friend who. She's a big prayer warrior. So I said to her, I was like, please pray for me. I'm going to be trying to file pfa. I'm going to call domestic violence services. And so she's like, I'm on it. I'm going to let my ladies know she had a ladies bible ready. So she lets her ladies know. So one of her ladies goes to work, she starts talking about my story, and she's like, yeah, there's this girl who's a friend of my friend who is being stalked, and he's from this certain area, and there's a lady in her office, and she's like, that's funny. That's what my ex did. And then she's like, yeah, and he's doing this. She goes, that's funny. That's what my ex did. And so my friend's friend said, can you tell me what his name is?

[Hannah]

This is why we gossip. Gossip saves lives.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

Literally. This is such a good example of good gossip.

[Carrie]

It is. It is. So. So she asked her, can you please share his name? She sends it to my friend. My friend sent it to me, and I said, that's the guy. And so it's unbelievable. She's like, this girl dated him. And so at that point, we arranged for us to have a secret phone conversation. So we have this conversation. She's telling me all kinds of things. She's like, what? You know, before we started dating, she's like, he sent me flowers to my house, and we hadn't even met yet. And I didn't understand that initially, but now I understand that he was already into her life before he was in her life.

[Hannah]

Like, he knew where she lived.

[Carrie]

Correct. Correct.

[Hannah]

He was. He's a creep.

[Carrie]

Yes, very much so. So I'm in the sheriff's office now giving them the lowdown on this. This whole scenario. So they finally look at me and they're like, well, who is this? And they point out this paper, and I'm like, that's Me. And they're like, we thought you were an attorney.

[Hannah]

Wow.

[Carrie]

I was like, I thought that was hilarious because I just thought like, I am representing myself, so I'm glad I look the part at least. So that was the third week I made friends with the sheriff's office after that, stayed in touch with them. By the fourth week, the one sheriff's deputy that I was in touch with, he said to me, because I said, am I going to have a hearing? And he said, you're going to have a hearing. So this judge, he heard my story, he asked me some questions and he decided to give me the PFA for three years, which is the maximum. Yes. Praise the Lord.

[Hannah]

Oh my goodness.

[Carrie]

And so he, I was so grateful for that because I thought, here this guy is playing, he's, he knows how to play the system. And I knew that.

[Mackenzie]

He sure does. And he knows exactly what, what like line to reach before it's too far and then he pulls back.

[Carrie]

Exactly, exactly. So that happened. That was like my Christmas miracle of 2022. And after that, the court hearings for his harassment charge started and we went to court in February. The district court level could not do the hearing because he never showed up to that. But somehow he got a zoom link to show up that way, but claimed that he had had an accident and that he could hardly walk. And yet the police officer told me, yeah, but on the screen you could see him walking around the area in his room or wherever he was on the zoom.

[Mackenzie]

Welcome to my job.

[Carrie]

Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly, exactly. So at that point to victim services, they, the lady was preparing me and she was like, hopefully after today you can leave and you can feel better and things will be, you know, you'll go home scot free. And I said, no, I said, that's not going to happen. And she was like, well, why? You know. And I said, because things haven't stopped. And so why would I anticipate that they're going to stop now? I think I became the challenge for this guy, honestly, because I started to stand up for myself because you can imagine his probably unbelief that what she represented herself and she got the pfa. So this guy doesn't, doesn't really know who he's messing with.

[Hannah]

Did he still contact you during this point? Like he's texting you at all or just hacking you?

[Carrie]

There were, it was mostly hacking. There were different phone calls. But again, my phone is set up that if you're not a contact. Yeah, you're not in my phone, you know, you don't get to contact me.

[Hannah]

But he's not, like, communicating with you about this ongoing.

[Mackenzie]

No, because he's not allowed to.

[Carrie]

No, he's not allowed to. Right. If he does.

[Mackenzie]

But if. But they can't prove that he's hacking you. So he's basically, like, effing around from, like. But. And they can't prove it's him.

[Hannah]

And I'm still not over this hacking situation. Like, is he anonymous, like the hacker group? Like, he's obviously very good at it. I'm so interested in that.

[Carrie]

Yeah, it's just been a crazy. A crazy, crazy road and dealing with the police. And I went to every court hearing that he was scheduled, and they were. They would tell me, well, you don't have to go to that. And I'm like, no, I do want to go to this, because when I'm an advocate for other people, I want to know what happens at these things. So I end up going to them. So the. The. One of the very first ones that now. It went from the district level now up to the county level. And so the da I was talking to her and I said, you know, I want to come. She's like, you don't have to come, but she's like, I'll show you a courtroom. And I'm like, I saw the courtroom, like, four times back when I got my tv.

[Hannah]

Yeah, it's not like I want. I want to know.

[Carrie]

Exactly. So she said, well, he's probably not going to show up. And so there's no need for you to come, but I can show you the courtroom. So I brought a friend with me, and we were. We walked down to where victim services, and then we walked down to the courtroom. And we're inside the courtroom, and the DA is explaining the different areas of what everything is. And the victim services is standing. We're kind of like inside the door, standing side by side. And so I'm on the inside. My friend is next to. To me. The DA is kind of in front of me, and then the victim services is in front of my friend. And so the door is there. People are coming kind of coming in and out, but you can tell there's not much going on there. So all of a sudden he walks in, and I'm like, there he is. I was like, welcome.

[Mackenzie]

Welcome to your party.

[Carrie]

Exactly.

[Mackenzie]

So what happened?

[Carrie]

So I look, I was like, I couldn't believe my eyes because they're literally telling me he's not going to be there. You know, he's not going to show up. The stuff. But they are convinced that this guy, you know, he doesn't have to be there, all the things. And so I was so happy, though, to see. Because I just thought, I want this guy to see me and look me in the eyes, because I'm like, I want to show him I am not afraid of you. And, you know, yes, you're doing these things to me, but I'm gonna stand up for myself. I'm not. I am not the victim here. And that's really why I wanted him to see me. And so the DA notices, you know, and realizes that he's there at that point. And so she's like, let's go out into the hallway. So we go out into the hallway. Well, doesn't he just follow us out there? Well, he is like. He's literally like. It's like a shark, you know, when they're going for their bait, he's like, sharking around us. And she finally says, let's go into this other private room over here. And it's close to where the courtroom is, but it's this other private area. And so we go into this little room, and we talk for probably about 40 minutes or so. And I'm just asking them different things. And. And so we finally go out, and he's literally standing outside the courtroom, where he probably was. Was standing right by the room listening to us. You know, it's crazy.

[Hannah]

He's still stalking you at his own hearing.

[Carrie]

Yeah, exactly. So anyway, so they're very protective of me at this point because of having the pfa, and they're going to protect me. So they always call the sheriff's office, they escort me to my car, because you don't know what these people are capable of. And so at that point, we're getting ready to head back the hallway to where Victim services is. And the DA says, I'll be right back. And so we go up, and she then meets us a little bit later. And she says. She says. So she's like, I might have lied a little bit. She's like, I told him he had to go sit in the courtroom, and we bust up laughing. And I told her. I said that right there. You bossing him around, I said, was enough for me to want to come today. But the court hearings went on and on and on for. So he was charged in October 31, and it went on till November 7 of 2023, where he got charged probation for a year. And so what's wrong with harassment? Like, yes, he got charged. He has a harassment Charge and amounts to basically a lot of nothing. Because it's nothing. It's nothing.

[Hannah]

So what, he just has to, like, check in with a probation officer and maybe not do anything else?

[Carrie]

Exactly. That's exactly what he has to does.

[Mackenzie]

He could go to break into your house and go to his probation officer.

[Hannah]

And be like, okay, yeah, exactly. He can make it there by lunch.

[Carrie]

Yep. And because I got so desperate last January, a guy ended up coming and banging on my door late at night. I don't know if it was him. I don't know if it was somebody else. Finally, the church that I worked for, the cameras caught it because I lived across the street from where I worked, and they didn't have cameras at the time when I first was hired there. And the stalking first happened later on, maybe a year later, they finally got cameras. Well, we caught the guy, a guy walking up toward my house and then banged on my door late at night. And I was in my bedroom, so I heard him bang on my door. And at this point, I bought a gun, actually, and I carry and so just as a protection for myself and so hurt the guy. My neighbor who was next to me, she had a ring camera. And I asked her, I think it was the next day because it was pretty late at night. I asked her the next day. I said, did you get any coverage of a guy walking past your house? And so she's like, no, there's nothing. So that means he banged on my door, and then he ran behind my house through the neighbors and back the other street and out the door, you know, out that way. And so that happened. So after all these things were happening and the police are trying to be helpful, but kind of dismissing me because it just sounds crazy and we don't know how to deal with this phone stuff and, you know, just really not. I mean, I literally went to the point of contacting the FBI because I thought, well, maybe will help me. Yeah, security, because they would know. Well, guess what? I have a guy who is a friend of mine who was. He's retired from the FBI. I had submitted. You have to submit a form online. They will not contact you. He contacted his people. I just said, look, can you just contact your people and see what is happening if they can help me? And so he contacted them and he said, unfortunately, they can't help you unless you get money stolen. That is the one blessing in disguise, I guess, is that I didn't get money stolen, but I've spent thousands and thousands of dollars trying to secure myself.

[Hannah]

Everything exactly and also, Mackenzie, what you said earlier, he's doing everything up to the point of he's going.

[Mackenzie]

He's towing that line. And then he knows if he crosses it, he's in trouble. But if he stays back, he knows he ain't going to get in trouble because he knows that he'll just get a. He's. He's. He's not doing enough and. Okay, so also, I want to talk about how you said the cops are like, you know, you just. There's nothing we can do. Cops are so limited. They are to minimize a situation so that it can go to court and the court can deal with it. Right. Like, they're to do their job out on the streets. But the cops, there's nothing they can do with a stalking situation when it comes to cyber stuff because they don't know. There's no training, there's no education, and there's very, very, very, very few police departments know how to handle it. When someone comes in and says, I'm being stalked online or someone is harassing me online, they write it down. But they're like, what are we supposed. They don't have the resources. They're at the local level. They're not trained on that. And at this. It's 2025. Like, we need to start getting trained on that. Our children are being affected with the bullying and everybody being online. It ha. Something has to happen because the stalking that this guy is doing, this. The cyber stalking that he's doing is just. He knows he's not gonna get in trouble because there's not enough. There's not enough resources to catch him. And he knows.

[Carrie]

Yes, yes. And he's very good at it.

[Hannah]

I have another podcast recommendation for you. It's called, you probably think this story's about you. And if you are someone who wants more dating detectives content during the week and have to wait, this is something you can do that will fill that void. So the host, Brittany, has her own dogfish story. And the first season, she takes you through it in depth. So it starts with the whirlwind romance with, you know, her, quote, soulmate. And then she interviews other women who were affected by him and analyzes the pattern of manipulation he used. Then she goes through her experience of healing and recovery, and it's really interesting and good and in depth. It hit number one on Apple and Spotify in its first season, and now its second season deals with other stories similar to that, including two women from Ireland finding friendship in the wake of a traumatic relationship, which we love. Stories like that. Each story spans a couple episodes, so it really gets in deep, and it's just a really raw, achingly human story is how it's described. But I really feel that it's, like, finds the beauty in the mess, and she's a really great narrator who talks a lot about stuff we like. So get some more of this topic. It's not your typical true crime story. You probably think this story is about you. It's available anywhere you get podcasts. And you should let us know what you think if you go listen to Brittany.

[Carrie]

When we first just were talking and met and all the things he said, two things stand out to me of what he said that he was good at at cars and computers, and I thought, yep, I'm sure that you are. You know, and his family owns, like, a automotive place, and so I'm sure he probably steals people's cars to come to the area. I've been trying to tell the police there are cars that he. He drives, like, this big yellow Jeep, Rubicon type vehicle, and you can't miss it. So he's not gonna come in that vehicle.

[Hannah]

I was thinking about that. I was thinking about why he had another car. I was like, and does he have a lot of money with, like, is he getting all these lawyers, but he.

[Mackenzie]

Just knows he needs it to get away with what he's doing?

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Carrie]

Yes, yes, exactly. And one of the very frustrating things that I was told by the first police officer, who was a woman, she finally said to me, he doesn't know where you live. He doesn't know your address. And she said something else. And I finally said to her, I said, is it going to take something happening to me or something even worse to happen to me for you to understand what I am dealing with?

[Mackenzie]

Someone has to die at an intersection before they will put up a red light.

[Carrie]

Yes, exactly.

[Mackenzie]

Every time.

[Carrie]

Exactly. And so when that incident happened in January, where the guy was banging on my door, I got so desperate that I decided to reach out to the author of this book. I found one book online that was called Antidote for a Stalker, and it's by a detective, Mike Proctor. I ended up.

[Mackenzie]

I've heard of him.

[Carrie]

Yes. And you should contact him. Honestly, I think he would be such a great resource for everybody. He is now retired, but he's kind of old school. But he has solved plenty of stalking cases. And he ended up actually calling me at work one day, and he's like, I never call victims. And I'm thinking, why are you calling me? You know, but again, it was just a God thing that he called me. I started telling him the different things that I have encountered, from blinds being turned to the shower curtain to my pillow. And he said, of course he did that. He said, those are the things that they do. He said, they will go into your bedroom, into the bathroom, into the kitchen. Those are the areas that they focus on, because those are the areas that.

[Mackenzie]

We spend the most, are the living areas. Yes, yes.

[Carrie]

And so I have sort of become friends with this guy. He started to talk with some of the police, and he has been a huge help. His book, if nothing else, if you want to know more about stalking cases, he educates people on stalkers. And there's different types of stalkers. There's, you know, what you think of as the regular stalker. There's the ones that are like, the guy I'm dealing with, you know, where I think he's taken stuff out of my house that are like trophies. And I wouldn't be surprised if somebody.

[Mackenzie]

Those are dangerous ones.

[Carrie]

Yes. And I would not be surprised if someday, when I'm living years from now and this is hopefully in my past, that I wouldn't get mailed some of the things that I have, he took from my house, because I just have that feeling about him. So mark my words, because he hasn't.

[Mackenzie]

Gotten what he wanted yet. He doesn't have your fear.

[Carrie]

Yes, yes, exactly. Exactly. So he sentenced him to a year of probation. At that point, we then go. And I go, there's now a county detective that's involved. This is now around the time where we're talking about my brother's Bible. I'm asking them if they can fingerprint it, because I know that's a capability that people can do. But do you want to do it? Because, well, all these things don't really prove that it's him. So, you know, God forbid we should try to do something that's actually helpful. So we're talking after the sentencing hearing, they're like, let him go out. Let him whatever, do his thing. So again, we're talking for probably about 40 minutes. We're getting ready to say goodbye. We get into the elevator, and we're like, on the fourth floor, and we're going down. We go down one level, the doors open, and there he stands, and we meet eye to eye. I'm just like, if I would have known that I was gonna see this guy eye to eye, I literally would have took a step forward toward him to show him, again, a stance of I'm not afraid of you. And so, you know, it's one of those things. It's those little power moves that make me feel like power empowered.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, yeah.

[Carrie]

You know, to show you that you might be still doing stuff to me, but your day is coming. So I. They say you have to start stalking the stalker, so to speak, you know, because you have to get into his. You do, you do. And so I started to research this guy, Google him, you know, do all this different stuff, because I had his birthday and all these different things. And so one night I couldn't sleep, and so I was like, you know that I would often Google stuff at that point, you know, because it made me feel better. And so I started googling him and I found some stuff that he had posted on some forum, and I don't remember what it was, but he posted some things about Jeffrey Dahmer, who is a serial killer. And then I actually found another woman who he got married to five years after the 10 year ago one. And she filed a PFA. We have all. Each of us have filed PFAS. We're all saying the same things. And I, I recently met with a chief of police and another detective in another township. And I said to them, when you have three unrelated women who are saying, he's harassing me, yeah, he's stalking me, he's in my phones, he's anything, blah, blah, blah. You know, I'm. I'm like, what more do you actually need to. And now we've lost our opportunity with probation to try to dig deeper into this guy legally. And so I'm like, oh, my gosh, you know, how much more frustrating can this get? So this stuff has never stopped now. In April, I got let go from the church that I was at. They had to eliminate my position. I'm not exactly sure of the why. That was honestly very devastating to me because it felt like my community was turning on me. And yet they weren't, because I love where I was at and I really love the job I had. And I, you know, I just was really sad that it had to end, but I don't know if it was because of this situation because honestly, a lot of people get let go from their jobs because of the drama.

[Mackenzie]

They don't want to affect the business. Yeah, exactly.

[Carrie]

Exactly. And so started my new job in April. Then through a course of events, ended up being able to move into a new place with another person, which was a much safer situation for me to be with somebody else in a more tight community. That kind of Thing.

[Mackenzie]

So I bet that felt a little bit safer when you, like, having someone live with you and just kind of. Did they feel. Did they know your situation? Like, were they a little scared? Like, don't put me in this.

[Carrie]

No. I got to know her pretty well, and we actually ended up being at the same job. And so we ended up starting to walk together. She needed to move out of her place. I thought, if the right situation comes along, I will move. But I didn't know how it was going to happen because I didn't know someone who would want to set themselves up like that. So she agreed. Yes. She knew, exactly.

[Mackenzie]

She was like, we will whoop his ass if he comes up in here.

[Carrie]

You said it perfectly.

[Mackenzie]

That's probably. She was probably like, yep, we are going to rock this world.

[Carrie]

Yes. Yes. And she is not afraid, you know, so I'm very thankful for that. And so we moved in July of last year, and everything was going good until the end of September. So when I moved, what qualified me for the address confidentiality program, which is through domestic violence services and through the state, was the fact that I was moving. And so what that does, it basically takes your information out of public record so that people can't find you. And so I qualified for that because of the fact I was moving the end of September, I ended up being able to get an appointment with the detective of the new township. We met Saturday morning. I came home Saturday, a little early afternoon, did not go into my car until Monday morning. And when I got in my car Monday morning, my steering wheel was moved and my seat was moved and my car. And, you know, so my car was in the garage. It was locked. Now, I didn't have any alarms or anything on my garage door, which I had in my old place, which I kind of let my guard down. And that's one of the things that, unfortunately, I made that mistake, you know, and so now every time something happens, I then form a strategy and all. All the things. And so that literally was just a few months ago and in your new place. In my new place, yep. And so. And actually when we were signing. So she was the one. My roommate was the one who she was contacting all of the different people that we were looking at places and stuff, because I didn't want to risk it going through my phone because my phone was acting up and things like that. And I just. I didn't want that on my stuff.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Carrie]

And so knowing that I would be in this program, just wanted to play it safe all around. So we talked to the landlord, and then we decided this was the place that we wanted. And I get two texts that say, hi, Wendy. And Wendy. Yeah, they say, hi, Wendy. So they didn't even use my name, Carrie. So here I am. And now they're using a name and they're saying, hi, Wendy, congratulations on your new move. And where. Blah, blah, blah, blah. And they say all the stuff. And I'm thinking. So I asked my roommate and I said, did you get a text? And she said, no, I didn't get any text. So then I said to the landlord, I said, did you. Do you send texts out or do you contact people? He's no. And I showed him the text. He goes, that's weird. And I was like, nope, I don't think it's weird because I know who it is. I know that it's someone now showing me that they know where I'm living. And so that's that connection. Exactly. So my car. Then that happened. And again, it's not damaging. So I reported just enough. Yes, exactly. So, yes.

[Hannah]

How is he doing this?

[Carrie]

Your guess is as good as mine. So now, at this current juncture, as actually today, I've been taking screenshots, I've been making little videos. What my phone is doing now is it is completely shutting itself down. Meaning. And the only way I found out that it was doing this was my weather app that I bring. I wasn't getting texts weeks and weeks ago. I wasn't getting texts. I wasn't getting phone calls. I'm like, what is going on? And again, I have an iPhone. I'm now using Google Voice. I also use the app called Signal because it's encrypted on my end. And your end, good apps to use to cover yourself. And so. So what started happening is I wasn't getting anything, and I thought, this is really strange. So I go. And I'm just kind of looking around my phone and all the things, and I go on my weather app, and it comes up and it literally will say at the top, no Internet connection. And yet it has the bars. Like, I'm online and it has everything, you know, going on, but it's completely shutting my phone down. So it's completely shutting all my apps down. And so it's not completely shutting it black down. It's shutting all of my apps down. But had it not been for my weather app, I wouldn't know that that was happening to my phone.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Carrie]

So now. And what I've been telling the. I said the concern with the Phone is that if someone can shut your phone down, they can come, then get into your house. If they can shut the WI fi and they can do something bad to you.

[Hannah]

Plus they can also get in the bank. They can.

[Carrie]

Exactly. And I don't put, so I don't put any emails, nothing like that on my phone, which I know people are like, how do you even function now? I actually just bought a flip phone because apparently they're the safest.

[Mackenzie]

I was, I was about to say, I was about to, I was going to make that suggestion. If you are being hacked and you go buy the, you go to Walmart, you buy the prepaid phone, put your minutes on it, and you, you basically have a burner phone and that's what you use and that's if you need to call or text. And unfortunately, it's just how it has to be.

[Hannah]

It makes me mad that that could be like your solution forever. It's like, you should not have to. That's what I stop using iPhones. But the fact that he keeps getting into it is, I was thinking at the beginning, we have had a case where someone put an app on someone else's phone when they were in person with that phone. Like they snuck the phone.

[Mackenzie]

Was there ever an opportunity for him to do that?

[Hannah]

Even if there was, he did it when she got new phone later, right?

[Mackenzie]

Oh yeah, that's true too, right?

[Carrie]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

So now I'm like.

[Carrie]

And nothing was related. New phone, new phone number, new email, new account, new Apple id. I mean, everything new. So he either got into my contacts and he knows me by getting into my friends phones. And so because a few of my friends, my one friend, her phone like completely like exploded. Like, I mean, the whole system just burned out. And I'm like, okay, that's really odd because for me, you know, I have. This is the saddest part for me is that I have literally lost friends because of this situation.

[Mackenzie]

They weren't your friends.

[Carrie]

They're too afraid to be around me. And that to me has just been the hardest because it's just awful. I'm so sorry because I finally said to one of my friend's daughters, because she was a little bit nervous because she has little kids and stuff and she was nervous about her mom and hanging out with me and stuff. And, and I get it, I really do get it. But at the same time I said to her, I was like, but you know what, when everyone just leaves, you're leaving the victim to have to deal with this themselves. And so they need Community. They need more people surrounding them.

[Hannah]

Yeah, the more. More bodyguards you have, the better.

[Carrie]

Right. And more eyes, more ears, more everything. And so, you know, I have one friend who's my best friend, who has been the one to be my study through this whole thing. She has been there morning and night checking in with me, and she lives back where I used to live. And so she has checked in with me morning, night, and she's my person. And we've come up with little. Little icons and different things, even, like, places we're going to meet. We'll say, okay, let's go to location number one. And unfortunately, this is what my life has become, because I don't know if someone is monitoring every little detail. So when my phone is on and it's working, are they seeing my text and seeing where I'm going and listening to my conversations? This is my life. It's just the hard part is that you're being intruded on in every single aspect of your life. Just this week, actually, I had a lady, because I've been posting things on Facebook because I feel like I need to put the word out and I need them to know because I went dark a little bit, and this lady contacted me who had worked at the church that I was with on behalf of another lady who works at the church. And I was able to meet with her last night. Interesting part is she works at the same church I did. She has the same color hair as I do, and she is being stalked in the same exact way that I'm being stalked. Stock.

[Mackenzie]

So this is it the same guy? It is same guy.

[Carrie]

We have no idea because she doesn't know who it is. I feel like that is too much of a coincidence to me. And so I'm literally this week, have been talking to the. I talked to the chief of police and the detective, and I haven't heard back from them quite yet. This is like. This is like breaking news right here.

[Hannah]

So that is so scary.

[Mackenzie]

So the same exact things happening to you are happening to her?

[Carrie]

Yes. The accounts, the. You know, she's felt like someone has been in her house. It's her phone, it's her computer, it's everything. Her security system has gotten shut down. All of that has happened to her. And I'm like, this is too much of a coincidence for me to think that this is not the same person or the same group of people. If it's a group of people, I don't know.

[Hannah]

You said she has the same hair color as you and works at the same place. Were there other similarities between his wife and the first engagement?

[Carrie]

So he was apparently married two times, and then this other girl who was a victim. He was. They never got married, of course, but apparently I don't know for sure because I sort of Googled them on Facebook to see what they look like and stuff, because I've only been in contact with them one, but I've lost contact with.

[Hannah]

That's what we. We would do.

[Carrie]

Exactly. We do our due diligence.

[Hannah]

It's research.

[Carrie]

Exactly. Exactly. But I'm pretty sure the two other ones, the two other victims, I'm pretty sure they look similar, but I don't look like them. I have a different hair color than.

[Hannah]

Okay. But I'm curious if maybe they all, like, I don't know, like, if he has some kind of, like, mommy issue that he's like, you know what I mean? This is totally speculating, but, like, I'm so curious, like, what he. It also validates the idea that it's not anything you can do. It's not anything you can prepare for. Like, these people have so much going on with themselves and are targeting somebody based on qualifications. We can't understand because we don't know how that mind works. And I just, like, I hate that anybody would say, well, didn't you see it coming? It's like, no, we don't think like this.

[Carrie]

Right, Right. But that. I mean, as hard as that was to hear her story, I was able to go to her house last night, and I was able to give her tips and tricks of the things that I've done. The things, you know, just little things that she has said how the police had made her feel crazy, and people are saying stupid things to her, like, well, what did you do to bring this on to yourself? And, well, you're not that attractive. So why would he be stalking you? Or why would someone be stalking you? I mean, just. Just dumb things. And I'm just like. And this lady is a little. She's probably a bit older than myself, but I'm still like, why are people so stupid? Why would they say these kinds of things? You know, especially with someone going through this. You're already going through enough. Like, you don't need another judgment on you going through this. And I'm like, that's why I'm going to be the best advocate. I'm going to tell everyone to shut up. Like, dip your lips.

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Carrie]

You know, and so. So one of the other exciting things is I met with one of the directors at Domestic Violence Services. And we have been touring around, talking to state representatives to get laws changed for a stalking pfa, because the regular pfa, it doesn't cover a stalking situation. And so, you know, in my case, I pretty sure I know who my stalker is. And so I would have every right to be able to do that. And if it's up to me, I want to make it for a lifetime that these people could not, you know, could not be around the. The victim. And so that's been really exciting for me. Again, being able to share my story is hard at times, but it feels so worth it when people are hearing that and they're like, this is unbelievable for sharing, you know, can't even wait.

[Mackenzie]

Is he still on probation or is he off probation now?

[Carrie]

He's off probation. He was off November of last year.

[Mackenzie]

And since that. Since that time, has it gotten worse or. No different or stayed same? Like, the le. His level of, like, his audacity, I.

[Carrie]

Feel like it's lessened a lot, but it's still.

[Mackenzie]

He found somebody else.

[Carrie]

Either that or he's just given up, Which I can't see that because, like I said, remember in September, my car happened, and then my phone is now acting up again, where it's been fine for a while. And I've been telling the police. The pattern is something happens, I do something new, and it will be fine for maybe about four, maybe six weeks, and then something will happen, and then, you know, here we'll go. So when I met with the police chief and the detective a few weeks ago, my phone was not acting up. And now all of a sudden, here I am in the last week, my phone is now acting up. So now it's. You know what I mean? It's the pattern that you get used to of just like. Like life starts to feel normal, normal, normal. And then, bam, something happens. Life starts to feel normal, normal, normal. Bam. Something happens. So it's like you can't. You can't fully move on because it's still happening and that.

[Hannah]

You're, like, living in that inhale. You don't get to exhale.

[Carrie]

Yeah. Yeah. For real. It's just like I said, it's been. It's just been two and a half years or so of just living in hell, you know, And. But I'm trying to make the best of it by opening my mouth, by sharing my story, by just feeling.

[Hannah]

You are a blessing. Do you know that? Thank you hugely. And I'm so inspired by the way you look for the blessings, too.

[Mackenzie]

I've got to say this story has fired me up. And I feel like we just have to do something. We have to pull our resources and catch this man. The fact is that he's entered your house. That makes me want to say hire a private investigator and watch him round the clock. Is it pricey? Yep. Someone's go. But if we can, if we can gather some friendly PIs in the area that I know you live and really come together on this, I really feel like nobody, nobody has thousands of dollars to spend on a PI. They just don't. And private investigators, you're talking a hundred dollars an hour, right. So you're talking 2400 a day. Okay. So if you want round the clock, clock, but that's what we need, I think round the clock surveillance on this guy. And I think we watch him, I think we tagged him, I think we collect a team of private investigators. As far as stalkers go, I'm not super knowledgeable with like the cyber part of it and like the, the forensics of like this, the cyber stalking. But there are people who specialize in the forensic of like this, the cyber stalking and the harassment online. So every things that are online and things that have to do with hacking. There are a lot of private investigators, for instance, are ex law enforcement, ex FBI. They're retired. They're retired from, you know, these big jobs where they actually did stuff like that. And so there are private investigators that specialize in certain areas and some of them do have that training in the cyber security aspect.

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Mackenzie]

But I think that's what like I, I probably know probably 300 private investigators, like just in my role, like just that I just know. Yeah. And so I feel like someone's, someone will know something. I'm, I'm texting my people right now.

[Carrie]

Oh my gosh. That's awesome.

[Hannah]

I, I'm like, I'm on the edge of my seat, but I will see. I, I'm like, I want to hear what they say, but I guess we have to wait.

[Carrie]

And I, you know, I'm a firm believer that, you know, like you said, the more eyes, the more community, the more that this guy going to get caught. And he's a danger to society. And I know he is because if you have three people that you know that he's stalked, how many more? And the, the first victim that I talked to, she said that he went after her dad and her landlord as well. And so it doesn't stop at women. It's men too. That's interesting.

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Carrie]

So it's because he.

[Mackenzie]

If he doesn't feel like he has enough control over you now, he's going to go affect the people that. That. That you love or the people that you know. He's gonna have that connection either way.

[Hannah]

And that also is like. I mean, just the fear of that being like, oh, now my family's involved. Now people in my life are involved. Like, that is another way of. In a way, like, showing power on the same victim. It's so crazy. Sorry, Mackenzie, what were you gonna say?

[Mackenzie]

No, that's okay. I was just saying that the rates of stalking prosecution need to increase. Like, there's. There is a. There is an unresponsiveness when it comes to stalking prosecution. There's no, like, nobody. Because it's hard. It's so hard to prove. And with this guy, they are literally just towing the line. They get so close. And there are. The statistics say 13.5 million people are stalked in one year period in the United States. Thirteen and a half million. Like, think of how many people that is. That are being stalked. And that's just the ones talking about.

[Hannah]

Yeah, we don't hear.

[Mackenzie]

We can't prove it. The cops can't do anything. There's no one that can arrest. What do they do?

[Carrie]

You know what I would love to see? I said this to the one state representative. I said, I would love to see the statistics of suicides by people who are being stalked. Because I know I've had thoughts that are. I'm not proud of it, but are very real, that I'm like, if I can't get this to get. To get better and it's never gonna go away. I'd rather go away. Do you know what I mean? And I value my life.

[Mackenzie]

You feel like you. You just feel so helpless and so hopeless, and you're like, this is. There's nothing I can do. Like, this is.

[Carrie]

Yeah, you can't get away from it. It's everywhere.

[Mackenzie]

Thank you, Carrie. Thank you so much for telling me.

[Hannah]

We love you.

[Mackenzie]

I just think you're so brave, and we're gonna. I want to. I want to. I want to dig into this because I am, like, so fired up, and I know so many.

[Hannah]

This is not over.

[Mackenzie]

So.

[Hannah]

Yeah, this is not you guys.

[Carrie]

I just feel like the one thing I've struggled was not having any advocates or people to be by my side. And you guys just want to make me cry because I just.

[Mackenzie]

We want. We want you to cry.

[Carrie]

I'm so thankful because, like, I used to tell my single moms, I'M like, as one person, we can make a difference, but when we link arms together, we're like a force to be reckoned with.

[Mackenzie]

Power and numbers, baby.

[Carrie]

Yeah. So I feel like.

[Hannah]

And we believe you, and we're here for you.

[Carrie]

Thank you.

[Hannah]

This was a horror story, and it is, but. So you're not alone.

[Mackenzie]

No, it's. It that. It's really deep. Like, it is hitting me in the gut so hard. I've been stalked before. I know exactly what you're going through. It's awful, and I'm just not. I'm just so proud of you. So thank you for standing up. And I just to make it clear, sometimes there's. It seems like there's no answer. Like, there's no solution. There's no resolution. Right. But you just telling your story is going to help someone else, number one. Even if it just helps them feel less alone. But I just feel like you can.

[Carrie]

You.

[Mackenzie]

I think you are going to change the world. I'm really. I'm really proud of you for sharing. So thank you so much for being here. And we're gonna. We're gonna give you guys updates with Carrie. Holy bananas.

[Hannah]

I'm like, guys, fired up. I got heated.

[Mackenzie]

You guys can tell. I got freaking heated during this. Like, I guess I just feel like I know what it's like to feel so helpless and so, like, you have no control over the situation, number one. Number two, it's ongoing. It is so intrusive. Like, this guy is making it clear to her that he's in her home, and there's nothing she can do to prove it.

[Hannah]

Yeah. And that there's nothing she can do to know if he's gonna stop. Like, that's the thing for me is, like, it is almost impossible to have peace of mind after you go through something like this, because even if they stop, you always have to live with that feeling. Of what?

[Mackenzie]

Of wondering, are they really stopped, or did they just take a pause? Like, do you know what I mean? Like, are they. And then it's like. And then you. And then. And at least in my case, you feel guilty. Like, oh, they're gone now, but who else are they doing this to? And then you feel guilty that it's someone else, and you're like, oh, man. Like, this is likely happening. And that's terrifying.

[Hannah]

It's horrid. And she said she knows of three other victims, but they're probably more of his. So we want to try to help her because this is ongoing. Mackenzie has already. So we're Recording this outro about a week from talking to Carrie. We've done some digging. Let's start there. Because I think, at least for me, I like having some feeling of action of, like, the little bit that we can control. Makes me feel better. Maybe that's a problem, but that's for my therapist to deal with. So do you want to talk about what you thought as a recommendation for what she should do with PIs and what you're thinking? I talked to a friend about the phone thing and go into any of that.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah. So I always recommend. A lot of people are they want to prove something. So, like, well, I'm just going to watch them or I'm going to set up my own surveillance or I'm going to document it myself. That is, at least in Florida, every state governs their own private investigators. Right. But at least in Florida, and I know several other states, you. You're not allowed to. To get that information on your own, because that's stalking. That's called stalking. Like, you're not allowed. But if you are licensed and you have a license to do the investigating, and you are, you hire someone to do it who is licensed, who has already gone through all the things they need to make sure they're doing it legally, that's when you can get the information. So don't do it yourself. I recommend if you cannot hire someone or if you cannot catch them for whatever reason, or maybe you have cameras and they keep taking them out somehow or whatever, hiring a private investigator that will do surveillance, although it can be really expensive, is a great way to get a professional legal view on this person and so that they can legally document what this person is doing day by day, whatever.

[Hannah]

And then you get proof, and then you have proof.

[Mackenzie]

So I recommend hiring a surveillance investigator who specializes specifically in surveillance and who can set up a team for you. They know where to position themselves, and they're familiar with this kind of case.

[Hannah]

And mackenzie's kind of touch and base with some people she knows. And we're trying to help Carrie get PI help and also help with that cost. So we're going to let you know how you can do that.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah. And if you are a private investigator and you listen to our show and you have ideas for how you can help or you know somebody, I would really appreciate if you reach out to us and just let us know, because I am basically, I'm on this mission of compiling as much help and information as possible from all the private investigators that I know. I do happen to know a Couple. There's a few in my Rolodex from Carrie's area that I've been in contact with. And we're going to try and help her as much as possible. She is. Carrie has set up a GoFundMe because this case is ongoing. We want to help her. Personally, I feel like the bet as a private investigator, I feel like the best thing to do is hire a private investigator, do the surveillance. And I feel like if we can help her do that, because it's ongoing, we can could potentially help stop this guy and also help protect her, keep her safe. So she set up a GoFundMe. So we're going to put the link to that fundraising page in the episode notes, and please consider donating there if you can, to help Carrie. And this Carrie's case in particular is ongoing. So that's why I think it's for her safety. I, I, I would. Man, I'm just so worried for her.

[Hannah]

Well, we talked to her. Yeah. About where would be best for our resources to go. Am stressed out about the phone situation. Can we talk about the cyber stalking?

[Mackenzie]

Oh, my God.

[Hannah]

Sara. Here's what I have gathered from some learning from you guys reaching out and from talking to a friend who's been hacked on his cell phone many times. The first thing is, like, our cell phone numbers are the key to our lives, and I think we all need to start getting Google Voice numbers and using them always.

[Mackenzie]

Google Voice is free.

[Hannah]

Yes. I knew about Google Voice and I knew, like, oh, don't maybe give your phone number to somebody you just meet on an app. But I put my phone number everywhere. Like, every time I sent you that stupid plaque and had to put my phone number in. You know what I mean? Like, anything you buy online wants your phone number. So I don't think we can do that ever.

[Mackenzie]

Start putting your Google Voice number.

[Hannah]

So I'm gonna read some of what my friend wrote. Is that cool, y'all? Yeah, because it was very helpful. So this is my friend who has a job that puts him at risk of a lot of hacking. So he got, like, he described it as stop North Korean hackers level security phone. Like, he bought the most protected phone possible and got a phone plan for that. So I wanted to get that information to Carrie because she got a flip phone. But even then, it's like, she shouldn't not be able to use a smartphone. Like, that's not fake. You know, I'm just, like, angry. Okay. So I asked him about how much the very, very secure phone was he said it was about one to 2,000. And he said, there's just your basic phone bill after that. But he did say that while that was great, it might not be as necessary as getting the phone plan service that he thought was really, really good. So the phone was called Glacier. That's the type of phone he got. But Afani E F A N I is a secure mobile service provider, and he thought that might be, like, enough. So then I was like, how did this happen? Like, why. Why did he have access to everything on her phone? And this is where I learned, like, all you really need is your phone number. And then he's like, if she. If he had any access to, like, her driver's license or passport, even a photo of it. Done. And I was like, well, he's been creeping into her house, so I have a feeling he could get a picture of that. So what happened to my friend is people would go to Verizon and impersonate not only him, but his mom, people on his family phone plan. That's crazy, right? And they would convince the phone people because they had his identification, her identification, his phone number. He even had his Social Security number hacked at one point, which is a whole another thing. He's having to get a new one. And they would set up phones with that number. And I think he called it SIM swapping and that. He was like, you would be so surprised that that is so easy. Basically, they call cell phone companies pretending to be you and get the cell phone company to put your number on their phone. Then if you have any other accounts, you can click forgot password and set up a new password and get into anything. And it's just easy. Like, I was like, wait, someone could do that to me right now? Like, I want to go change my number. So that was stressful to learn about, but I think it's important for us to know about. Yeah, I definitely think that service, the Ifani secure mobile service provider. He said he hasn't had any issues since that started, and it seems like that could be a helpful thing. And then he was like, there's also sites that will delete your information from the Internet. And I was like. Like, delete me? Who?

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, we advertise with Delete me. Delete me Will. They will find. It's a subscription service, and they will find the info that you don't want online, and they will remove it.

[Hannah]

So delete me. I mean, I hope that we can help her do more of that. I know she's already kind of started that process. But the phone thing blew my mind. I really was like, if he didn't have access to her physical phone, which he never did because he wasn't with her on the phone, how did he do it? But I guess it's not that hard. It's not that hard.

[Mackenzie]

And the problem with that is we as law enforcement has not caught up fully with the hackers and what they're learning. So the hackers are learning faster than law enforcement. So right now, it's really. There's only a small number of law enforcement that understand and know how to. How to find. Find these people and, you know, hack them back. Like, you know what I mean? Like, it's. Yeah, it's the. The hackers know more than the cops right now. And until we can get more manpower and get more, you know, more education in our law enforcement about these cyber crimes, this is going to continue to happen. So that's super important that we keep trying to, you know, learn more about that as far as our law enforcement goes.

[Hannah]

Two things based on that. If you are dealing with a stalking situation. One thing I took away from this story is not to be discouraged if going to law enforcement doesn't immediately result in a solution, because her story, it showed me that they really were doing the best that they could given their level of clearance and level of training. And that's not to say that the training shouldn't change and the, like, the process shouldn't change. But in this moment, if you go to the police and they say, I can get you even a order of protection, I can make a note of it. But that's kind of the extent. There are other places that can help you. She went to the domestic violence services, her local domestic violence services. I wouldn't stop there. Like, I wouldn't just be like, oh, the police didn't stop it, and so I'm screwed. As we're still trying to work on how to handle it better, I just know there are other private resources out there. And the sad thing also, and this was talked about in the book club book, Mike Proctor was like, the reality is, the more money you have, the better you can handle this. It is just a pricey thing right now. Even these phones, like the secure phones, are expensive. The phone plan is expensive. The PI is expensive. Like, the things that you actually need to do.

[Mackenzie]

Sometimes the investment, though, is worth the peace of mind.

[Hannah]

Oh, for sure. If you can do it. I mean, it's just sad. But that's the way it is right now. So that's the tech Side, there's so much more that happened. I mean, never give you a real phone number. Blocking on phone goes through to imessage computer. That was weird. Oh yeah. She was like blocking his text and then they still were coming up. Obviously.

[Mackenzie]

It's crazy. Like block means blog. Like no means no.

[Carrie]

It's fine.

[Hannah]

I guess she talked about her court process. Getting through the court system was just. That's so many trouble.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

And not even that it wasn't working. Like it was working. It just takes so much work and money, as I said.

[Mackenzie]

Yep. And you have a lot of times the money is the problem because it costs more than anybody could ever afford. Like, do you know, it's so hard.

[Hannah]

It's so sad.

[Mackenzie]

It's really frustrating. But this is what kills me is that this is ongoing. And so we. The way that, I guess what we and what we've learned here on the podcast is that the more we talk about it, the louder we are. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Right. So the more we talk about it, the more we bring awareness to it. Then it's like kind of out there. It's not hiding anymore. Right. And so that's what we're hoping to do is bring awareness to this. And so if anybody hears this and they're like, like, you know, someone's gonna be like, oh my gosh, like, I went through the same thing. This is what I did, you know, that helped me or whatever. And so that's what we're hoping for is that we can bring some kind of like finality to this for her. Because just. Yes, it's just these, it's just a subtle, these subtle things that this guy is doing that is intrusive and it just feels like you're, you're. It's evasive.

[Hannah]

It's so scary. I also love how you emphasized to be annoying and call law enforcement every single time something happens.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, yeah. Well, because oftentimes we're like, well, we're not, we're not gonna call the cops. That's dramatic. Listen, I, I am a dramatic person and I would rather over report and know that when, if something does go down, we're gonna have. Okay, look at all these 10 things that happened before. The 11th thing was like, holy crap up. And now we have all these 10 things to fall back on. Whereas it's like if you make a report after 10 things happen and then finally. And they're gonna be like, oh, this was a one time thing. And you're like, no, no, no, no. But wait, this happened and this happened. They're gonna be like, why didn't you call? And then because of our justice system, you have to like, you're gonna have to prove it. They're gonna say, well, you didn't document it. You didn't call us. So if you feel something is wrong, you feel like your pillow is turned around and you're like, oh man, I'm crazy. I put my pillow wrong. When really you, you honestly think it could be someone else, call, make a report. And you don't have to call 91 1. You don't have to call and like send the squads, like just call and make a report or walk down to the, like walk into the police department or sheriff's office or whatever and just, hey, I just want to make a report of this. I don't know that it's anything but by law they have to record it. I was just.

[Hannah]

Okay. Yeah. So, yeah, don't. You don't have to call the emergency number, which I think is great. So I was just watching the HBO documentary series on P. Diddy, which is not all out yet, but it's very distressing and disgusting. And one thing that a woman who was a victim of rape by him said, which broke me, is that she didn't report it. And her reasoning was because she was in the middle of a very messy custody battle with her ex husband and she didn't want to mess it, interfere with that. What would you say to somebody who is going through something maybe like that? And it's like, if I start reporting that I'm being stalked, there's a.

[Mackenzie]

And they're gonna be like, well, we're.

[Hannah]

Not gonna give you a kid with your. Yeah. I mean, like, what do we do when you have a very justifiable reason to be worried about law enforcement.

[Mackenzie]

So you don't. It's. It's good to call in and make a report, but also if you just keep a journal and you document and you can justify like, this wasn't an emergency. So I didn't want to call the cops or I didn't want to call the non emergency line or whatever. But what I did was I kept a journal to kind of document what was happening. And don't you also see a pattern?

[Hannah]

Write it in the journal and email it to yourself, right?

[Mackenzie]

Yes, yes, email it to yourself. Save it. Take a picture of your notebook and save it to your Dropbox, whatever. Email it to your mama, like somewhere where it's safe. So like if your email gets wiped out now your mom like say, send it to someone, whatever. Send it to as many places as possible and save it so that you have this documentation. So they'll say, well, why didn't you call the cops? And you'll say, you know, I wasn't sure if it was an emergency, but I did document. Document it, and here's what I wrote down. And then you can say, so on this date at this time this happened, and then on this date at this time, and then they can look at your journal that you've written down and say, oh, okay, like, you know, and yeah, hopefully that could help in your case or whatever. So if you're not. If you don't feel confident enough to call law enforcement, at least write it down, keep a journal, or email it to yourself. Like, my son, he gets. He started getting nosebleeds more often. And the doctor's like, you know, it's probably just winter time and his nose is dry. Whatever. Well, in order to document it, every time he gets a nosebleed with me, I text his dad. And every time he gets nosebleed with that, he said, he texts me. So now if I go to his text and type in the word nosebleed, we can document what date and time he got a nosebleed. And so that's just keeping track of it that way. So you can do the same thing. Text it to yourself. Do something like this time.

[Hannah]

Telling somebody that's a great thing too, because obviously you have someone to back up your story. Sometimes you don't feel. You feel isolated. These people can do a lot of things to make you feel that way. But she had a community that. That did seem to really come into play. Having people that you can go to and talk to and, yeah, can validate you when you're like, I'm crazy. And they can be like, no, actually that insane. And somebody did come into your shower and take one hook off every other thing.

[Mackenzie]

But then someone is there to back you up. And, like, if it has to go to court or something, you have someone that can speak on your behalf and say, this person was. You know, I noticed that my friend was very scared on these days, and this is what she reported to me or whatever. Like, you never know how it could be helpful. So definitely tell someone, make someone aware. Because what will happen is the more you tell someone, like, oh, this is happening to me, like, this is going on or whatever, it's going to heighten everyone's awareness around you too. And so if something happens to you or they can't get a hold of you, they're going to be like, you know what she keeps telling me that something is weird or she keeps telling me that things are happening weird in her home. So not hearing from her from for a day is not normally alarming. But I haven't heard from her a day and this is going on. Let me call someone. And so it might. It just raises those alarm bells just a little bit more to, to make everyone around you more aware too. So I talk loud. Say it. Say it out loud. And if you're afraid of people thinking you sound crazy, like who cares? Get used to it, you know?

[Hannah]

Yeah. Go practice. Go sing in an elevator with strangers and get, get comfortable because well, we love the Ashley Flower saying be weird, be rude, stay alive.

[Mackenzie]

Be weird, be rude, stay alive.

[Hannah]

I even wrote down, I wrote down be a Karen when it comes to your safety, like true a lot. Be annoying. That is one time you're allowed. And it's easier said than done. I even have been recently like in a public situation where I saw a girl that I wasn't sure if the guy was like something she was welcoming or not. And I really hesitated. I was like, oh, I don't want to be annoying. I don't want to seem like I'm intrusive or whatever. And then I was like I'm just gonna say hi or something and I just walked over. But it took me a minute. Like me who talks about this every week for a living.

[Mackenzie]

But you're right though, like you don't want to sound crazy. You don't want to sound like you're being dramatic or whatever. But you can call me dramatic all the live long day. Be weird. We would stay alive. Like you know what I mean?

[Hannah]

Like honestly the best case scenario like in that instance is that they're fine and I seem a little over dramatic. Like that's what I want to be the case.

[Mackenzie]

You will always sound crazy until you don't. And I feel like just keep talking. And that's why I'm glad that Carrie was so brave to tell her story even. Even though it's ongoing because it's just the awareness and that's very, very brave of her. I'm really proud of her different.

[Hannah]

She talked about some of the statistics and you have awareness of some of the statistics which in the book club book and from what I see they're probably inaccurate. Like so many people don't report what's happening under reporting.

[Mackenzie]

Yep, for sure.

[Hannah]

So it's like we don't really even know how Much is happening, but it's happening a lot. And also, she was like, I wonder what the suicide rate of survivor or actually victims of. Of stalking is. And, I mean, it says, I looked and it says, this is old, but, like, 24. Ruminations, suicidal ruminations, which feels low and probably is. And we don't know. There's just. It's such a vague crime. It's such a vague crime because there's no relief from.

[Mackenzie]

There's no relief. And it's just like, you're just so. You're at a point where you're scared, you're anxious, just you're, you know, all the time. And it's like you just want relief. Like, there's no. It's like chronic pain almost, it seems. And it's like chronic anxiety, and you're constantly looking over your shoulder.

[Hannah]

Well, that's why I hope this podcast, as simple as it is, it's like, yes, we do live in a world that sucks. Like, we have to do that. But at least with the dating detectives, you have, like, a group of people who you can kind of vibe and connect with over that. You can be like, man walking through a parking lot. That alone sucks. Lol. And we can all LOL with you. And then we can sell some pepper spray with dating detectors on it, because that is something that is down. Coming, coming soon. Surprise. But, like, you know, I just want to have sisters and siblings of all kinds in cahoots with this because we have to go through it together, and it makes it easier. But keep swivel and tell your people and you're not alone. God, there was so much here. So send us any reactions if you're going through something like this. I hope that something has helped you, but also that Mike Proctor is a great resource. Stopstalking us.com is a resource. She talked about her local domestic violence services being really helpful. So look for that.

[Mackenzie]

Tell everyone around you.

[Hannah]

Yeah, this was important. Carrie, thank you.

[Mackenzie]

And we're so proud of you.

[Hannah]

We love you. We'll keep you guys updated. Yes.

[Mackenzie]

Let us know what you think of her story and let us know, like, if you've been through something similar or going through something similar, what you experienced and what support or advice that you can offer. We would love to hear it and share it with her. So thank you so much for always being willing to support our guests. We love it so much.

[Hannah]

Patreon $5 a month bonus episodes. And we'll make sure we update y'all on Carrie's case as we can. And we're also reading what's it called again?

[Mackenzie]

Antidote for a Stalker.

[Hannah]

Antidote for a Stalker.

[Mackenzie]

Antidote for a stalker.

[Hannah]

Yes. February 23rd will be join the Patreon.

[Mackenzie]

And come do the book club with us. We have. We always get together and like, we talk about it. Everybody has their different opinions and ideas and sometimes it gets heated. And not like heated in a friendly way. Like.

[Hannah]

No, it's like fun discussion.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, it's actual, like real. Just real discussion about like these. These different topics that are so important. And so I don't just come join us. And you get two bonus episod a month. And we really appreciate the support also.

[Hannah]

Yeah, I'm excited. I saw somebody recommended another book for a fiction month. I won't spoil it now, but let's just say it sounded like a little smutty but also relevant.

[Mackenzie]

So I was like, yes, dude, smut is in right now. So many people are talking about love you. Read this latest. And I'm like, you guys are hoes. Good for you. I like it.

[Hannah]

I'm here for it. Loud and proud, right? No, I love a smut. I love a little smutty book. I'm reading Onyx Storm. If anybody is right now, let me know. It's trendy. Don't worry about it. Mackenzie. It's dragons. There's dragons in it.

[Mackenzie]

I don't do dragons, but it sounds great. I love that for you.

[Hannah]

Thank you guys. Email us.

[Mackenzie]

Our email address is investigatehedatingdetectives podcast.com. you're welcome.

[Hannah]

Stunning. Stunning. And share review five stars. It gets to more people.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, we really appreciate that. And share on your social media.

[Hannah]

We.

[Mackenzie]

When you guys share on your social media, we love it so much. Like, we get a lot of people who are like, oh, my gosh, my friend shared this and I'd never heard you guys before and this story really helped me or whatever. And it's like, wow, one person shared this and we were able to touch somebody or help somebody. So I think that's really cool. So thank you for sharing. Keep sharing.

[Hannah]

Thank you. And listen to the Medical Detectives. Our sister pot.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, that's it. A lot of people are really liking the Medical Detective.

[Hannah]

Oh, it's so good. It's so good.

[Mackenzie]

I'm so glad to hear that. Okay, we love you guys and let us know what you thought. And we.

[Hannah]

We got. We're here for you.

[Mackenzie]

And until next time, trust your fem tuition.