The Therapist's Obsession: Part 1

Summary

The Dating Detectives – Episode Summary

Podcast: The Dating Detectives
Host: Dear Media
Episode: The Therapist's Obsession: Part 1
Date: July 6, 2026

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Overview of the Episode

This episode, “The Therapist’s Obsession: Part 1,” launches a two-part deep dive into the harrowing story of Emily, a survivor of profound abuse in both her childhood and young adulthood. Hosts Mackenzie Fultz (Private Investigator) and Hanna Anderson (Comedian) dissect the manipulation, trauma, and ethical violations Emily faced—not only from her adoptive family but, shockingly, from a trusted therapist whose “help” turned into an unhealthy obsession and manipulation. The conversation is raw, often hard to hear, and serves as a powerful warning about red flags, the dangers of unchecked authority, and the complexities of trauma recovery.

Content Warnings:

• Child and domestic abuse
• Addiction and substance use
• Adoption trauma
• Suicidal ideation
• Unethical therapist relationships

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Introducing Emily’s Story (04:28–07:32)

• Emily’s Background: Born in Eastern Europe, Emily was adopted twice, first returned to an orphanage due to illness, then adopted by an American couple, “David and Linda.”
• Early Trauma: Suffered severe abuse (“in every way possible”) at the hands of her adoptive father, emotional abandonment from her adoptive mother.
• School and Early Substance Use: Turned to alcohol as a coping mechanism in her early teens, driven by isolation and a lack of support at home.
• Residential Treatment: After behavioral “acting out,” Emily was placed in a residential facility for 1.5 years, during which reports of abuse were ignored due to her parents’ legal guardian status and social standing.

“My adoptive father was really abusive in every way possible. He was really demeaning. And there was a lot of sexual abuse and a lot of physical abuse.”
— Emily (05:32)

2. The “Perfect” Therapist (09:00–12:57)

• School-Mandated Therapy: Upon return, her school required therapy with an external therapist. Her father enthusiastically chooses a therapist (Sarah) in a rural area.
• Building Trust with Sarah: Initially, Emily is guarded. After a visible bruise on her face (from abuse), she partially discloses her situation. Sarah recognizes the abuse but urges discretion, giving Emily (seemingly protective) advice on what to say to avoid mandatory reporting.

“In that session is when things kind of shifted to something more serious is going on.”
— Emily (10:23)

3. Manipulation, Isolation, & Escalation (13:33–21:24)

• The Savior Role: Sarah moves from therapist to mother-figure, giving Emily the first sense of being believed and comforted.
• Crossing Boundaries: Sarah advises Emily on what specifics to avoid sharing to sidestep reporting laws, and even how to conceal details about her sexual encounters.
• Emily’s Downward Spiral: As home abuse escalates, so do Emily’s attempts to act out—sometimes as a “cry for help,” sometimes for agency.
• Critical Incident: Emily’s father chokes her; the responding sheriff (a family friend) dismisses the situation, further deepening her helplessness.

“I think at that point, I had decided that if the opportunity where he was going to kill me came, then I was going to take it. Because at least if he killed me, then somebody would look into it, right?”
— Emily (21:24)

4. Sarah’s Growing Influence (23:44–28:36)

• Extreme Control at Home: Emily describes monitoring and restrictions at home, from limited gas in her car to phone surveillance.
• Late-Night Lifeline: After a violent episode, she reaches out to Sarah by phone late at night and feels validated by the therapist’s immediate, comforting response.
• Therapist Oversteps: Sarah begins collecting photo evidence of injuries, blurring lines between therapist, advocate, and “savior.”
• Father Bans Contact: After Emily’s father learns of Sarah’s involvement, he forbids further sessions—destroying Emily’s last sense of hope.

“She was willing to do whatever it took to help me. So I got home that night, and my father ... was like, you can never see Sarah again."
— Emily (25:59)

5. Sarah’s Desperate Advice & Emancipation (28:36–38:20)

• Questionable Guidance: Sarah tells Emily to fabricate suicidal ideation to school staff in order to trigger removal from her abusive home.
• Institutionalization: The ploy works; Emily is admitted first to a psych ward, then to a locked-down inpatient facility.
• Emancipation Case: Sarah becomes a key player—testifying for Emily’s sanity/adulthood and providing evidence, helping her achieve legal emancipation.

“Sarah actually would play a pretty big part in me getting emancipated ... I feel like I would sometimes question if maybe we were a little too close, but it was always—she would always justify it.”
— Emily (33:59, 71:01)

6. Therapist as Lifeline, Then Puppetmaster (38:20–51:42)

• Renewed Therapy Contact: As Emily enters early adulthood, Sarah continues as her therapist, holding an outsized role in Emily’s life and decision-making.
• Boundary Issues: Sarah makes herself indispensable—helping with daily adult basics (job interviews, banking, etc.), and sharing personal life details.
• Undermining Relationships: Sarah encourages Emily to scrutinize and eventually abandon her marriage, framing minor marital issues (“left the cabinet open”) as signs of deep disrespect and potential infidelity.

“Every session was her talking shit about my wife and saying ... I deserved so much more and I deserved so much better.”
— Emily (58:05)

7. Manipulation Peaks: Lies and Isolation (57:38–71:01)

• Gaslighting: Sarah repeatedly tells Emily her wife is cheating, even claiming to have witnessed it and received a (missing) voicemail confession from Emily’s wife.
• Severing Ties: Convinced, Emily initiates divorce and goes “no contact” with her wife upon Sarah’s advice. She even signs a release so Sarah can interface with her attorney, trusting her implicitly.

"Sarah was the hero in my story. ... I truly and genuinely believed that Sarah was telling me the truth and that my wife was just ... having an affair and disrespecting me."
— Emily (66:17)

8. Mental Health Crisis and Unthinkable Boundaries (71:01–78:28)

• Suicidal Crisis: Emily, isolated and desperate, plans to end her life but conceals it from Sarah, whose historical response to Emily’s depression was always hospitalization.
• Session Breakdown: After a highly emotional session, Emily forgets her car keys in Sarah’s office, forcing a re-encounter.
• Transgression: Sarah blocks Emily’s exit, delivers an overly intimate “can’t live without you” speech, and then kisses her—crossing an unthinkable professional boundary.

“She was like, I can't live without you. ... And then she kissed me.”
— Emily (77:39, 78:28)

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• [05:32] Emily: "My adoptive father was really abusive in every way possible."
• [21:24] Emily: "[At that point], if the opportunity came where he was going to kill me, then I was going to take it. Because at least if he killed me, then somebody would look into it."
• [13:51] Emily: "I think I'm supposed to tell you I fell down the stairs."
• [28:30] Mackenzie: “And that feels really risky to give to a kid in your situation. First of all.”
• [58:05] Emily: "It became every session was her talking shit about my wife and saying that I was miserable ... I deserved so much more and so much better."
• [66:15] Emily: “Why would Sarah lie to me? Why would, like, this person who's been in my corner...”
• [77:39] Emily: "She was like, I can't live without you. And then she kissed me."
• [78:55] Arden: “I feel like that ain’t ... Oh, my gosh. Y. That ain't even it. That ain’t even it. ... I’m literally—I’m fuming... What is going on?”

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Important Segment Timestamps

• Emily’s Early Life Story: 04:28–07:32
• Abuse and First Disclosure to Therapist Sarah: 09:00–14:10
• Critical Escalation and Home Crisis: 19:47–25:59
• Sarah’s Increasing Involvement/Crossing Boundaries: 25:59–38:20
• Divorce and Relationship Manipulation: 51:41–66:48
• Therapist’s Ultimate Violation (Kiss): 77:08–78:28

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Discussion and Analysis

• Ethics & Red Flags: The episode raises urgent questions about therapist-client boundaries, abuse of power, grooming, and the special vulnerability of young or traumatized clients.
• Isolation as a Control Tactic: Both Emily’s father and Sarah use isolation, dismissal, and manipulation—Sarah under the guise of “protection” and therapeutic care.
• Cycle of Abuse: The story is a chilling illustration of how patterns of abuse and control can repeat, shifting from a parent to a supposed “healer.”

Hosts’ Reflections:

• Mackenzie and Arden are “fuming” and disturbed, explicitly calling for therapists or therapy-informed listeners to weigh in on the extreme ethical breaches.
• They highlight similarities between abusive isolation tactics in romantic/domestic relationships and what Emily experienced with her therapist.

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Listener Engagement

• Hosts invite listener feedback especially from therapists or those in therapy regarding ethics, boundaries, and red flags:
  • “Therapists, any therapists listening, or any people who have been in therapy, which is, I’m sure a lot of you and definitely us or any person who’s a human, concerns, questions, ethics. I want to hear all your opinions on it.” (78:55)
  • Prompt to share “the WTF moments,” and what segment of the story shocked listeners the most.

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Conclusion

To Be Continued:
Emily’s story halts at the moment her therapist crosses a profound professional and personal line. Part 2 will continue exploring consequences for Emily, potential fallout, and dive deeper into motive and aftermath.

Key Takeaway:
This is an unflinching look at how cycles of abuse manifest and perpetuate—even in places meant to heal. The need for robust safeguards, trauma-informed care, and awareness of red flags (even in helping professions) is underscored at every turn.

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Next episode: Tune in for the conclusion of Emily’s story and further analysis on therapist ethics, survivor recovery, and the systemic failures that permitted these abuses to occur.

Engage with the hosts:

• Comment on Spotify, join Patreon for deeper dives, or email investigate@datingdetectivespodcast.
• “As always, trust your intuition.”

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Transcript

[Mackenzie]

The following program contains names, places and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following program is provided for entertainment purposes only, and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances. If you or a loved one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic violence hotline at 1-800-799-777, 233 for support.

[Arden]

Everybody say it with me. Happy dating.

[Mackenzie]

Happy dating. Detectives Monday. Hi, everybody. We are back with a two part episode that is going to rock your world, y'. All. In a bad. In a bad way.

[Arden]

Listen, y', all. You going to be unhappy, folks, when you guys hear this woman's story. You're going to want to punch things. I'm just letting you know. Violence. You will choose violence today.

[Mackenzie]

Get the pillows. Get the pillows ready. This is another. I mean, I. We say we're broken records, but we're so grateful that you are willing to come on and share these important stories. This is such an important story. We won't tell you too much, but let's just say somebody in a position of extreme power takes major advantage of that power. And we're gonna have moments that are really tough. There's some child abuse and we talk a lot about adoption and the trauma she experienced adoption with adoption, which I don't know how much that's come up

[Arden]

before and there's so much to unpack. It is a two parter. But y', all, every time I thought I was like, man, that's cra. It's more and it's more and it's more. And you're like, you just get, get, get your emotional support. Tumblr. I don't know what to tell you.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, other trigger warning, suicidal ideation and drug addiction. But yeah, it's. It's definitely a wild story. And we will do a thorough dogfish debrief at the end of part two. But we love to engage with the conversation as much as we can with you. In the meantime, whether that be on social media, at Dating Detectives Podcast, or on our Patreon where we get deeper.

[Arden]

And before we let our guest share her story today, real quick, let's talk about our live show that's coming up in Chicago July 16th. And that's in, that's at the Den in Chicago. And then we will be live in Orlando on August 5th, in Tampa August 6th. And I could not be more excited this Is going to be so much fun.

[Mackenzie]

I was looking. Some tickets are selling especially for Chicago because it's coming up. I just got my flights, so a

[Arden]

lot of Midwesterners, we. And also, obviously, I always like to show our gratitude for you guys. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you to our patreon who support us and just thank you for sharing our show on your social media. And it just really creates a community that I don't think a lot of us realize we need it.

[Mackenzie]

I agree. And I also want to just, like, make a little note. I know we've said it before, but if you've submitted a story, I hate it. We get a lot. We get a lot of submissions and we have sad. Yeah. Small but mighty team. Yeah. So we get back to you as quickly as we can, but I don't want you to feel like we're not valuing your story if you haven't heard back. It's been not only a crazy summer, it's physically a matter which is iconic of her.

[Arden]

Yeah. It was amazing, too.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, my gosh, you guys sweating. Ever amazing.

[Arden]

It was so fun and funny and silly and loving and beautiful.

[Mackenzie]

So it was beautiful.

[Arden]

Shout out to Molly and Elise. But, yeah, so there's a lot going on. But also we. We really appreciate when you share. So we're doing our best to get through it. And that's again, how your support goes towards our show and just, you know, for the manpower it takes to get through these. And I just can't. In three years that we've been doing the show, I cannot believe how you. You just don't realize how many people

[Emily]

go through this stuff.

[Arden]

So thank you for sharing.

[Mackenzie]

Emily is our guest. She's wonderful. And I. It's not that I'm. I can't wait. I'm not excited for you to hear her story, but, yeah, I'm sending it her way anyway.

[Arden]

Yeah.

[Mackenzie]

Let's. Sorry in advance.

[Arden]

Let's get into it.

[Mackenzie]

Hi, Emily.

[Arden]

We're so glad you're here. It's so nice to meet you.

[Emily]

Yeah, it's so nice to meet you guys.

[Mackenzie]

We are ready to hear your story. So take it away.

[Arden]

You have the floor.

[Emily]

Yeah. So I was born in Eastern Europe. My biological mom is a drug addict and is eventually sent to an orphanage. And I spent about 18 months there before I was adopted by a family from that country. And I had a lot of health problems. And so eventually I was returned to the orphanage and I was later, about a year and a half later, was adopted by David and Linda, who I would then kind of like, grow up with.

[Mackenzie]

Wow. So how old were you when you were adopted by them?

[Emily]

3 when I came to America, and then about 5 when the adoption was finalized.

[Arden]

Okay.

[Emily]

Yeah. So my adoptive father was really abusive in every way possible. He was really demeaning. And there was a lot of sexual abuse and a lot of physical abuse. And my mom wasn't really. She didn't spend a lot of time at home. And when she did, she spent more time with my brother and would spend time in their room and just didn't really come out or really spend time with us. Then when I was 14 or 15, my parents. I was actually in a residential facility at the time. I was acting out a lot. I would go to school, but wasn't like, participating in school in any way. And I just never really felt I, like, fit in with people who were living this normal life when my home life was so crazy. And so I didn't have a lot of friends in the sense of people that I could confide in. And so I think that in part played a lot in the acting out, too, because I just felt so alone in every sense of it. So I started drinking fairly young, and it wasn't a thing where I was drinking all the time, but if my parents were gone, I would have a couple drinks, and then a couple drinks would turn into drinking the entire six pack. And it really did make me feel better. And so I think, again, being so young and not understanding how our brains work, I just was like, oh, this makes me feel better, so it must be fine. And my parents didn't really notice because by the time that they would get home, I was already in bed. And, like, I don't know, there just wasn't a lot of anybody really paying attention to me in that sense. And so that also contributed to, like, if I would act out, then, you know, the school counselor would have to come talk to me or the principal would come talk to me. And it just felt like kind of getting that attention without being like, oh, totally.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[Emily]

Yeah. So I then went to treatment. I was there for about a year and a half, and during that time, my parents would come visit. And the plan was for me to go home. And despite the fact that I was telling these people that my father's abusive, and I would go on these home visits and come back covered in bruises and things like that, because my parents were still technically my legal guardians, there's nothing anybody could really do. And so, yeah, upsetting.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, it kind of makes you then feel like, oh, even if I do talk to people, they're not going to do anything. So I imagine you'd feel very hopeless.

[Emily]

Yeah. And it had painted this pattern in my life of me telling adults. But the influence that my father was able to have was just like, oh, she, you know, fell down the stairs, or she's clumsy, or, like. And it had painted this picture that I was almost doing it on purpose for attention. And, like, that's terrible.

[Mackenzie]

Terrible.

[Emily]

And I think that played a lot in not being able to really trust adults. And so I left treatment, and then I have to start school in August. And we had the meeting with the school beforehand, and they were like, the only way that we are going to allow you to go back to school is if you get a therapist and

[Mackenzie]

you're like, in a junior or senior

[Emily]

in high school at this point, I was a sophomore.

[Mackenzie]

Sophomore. Okay.

[Emily]

Yeah. And the other thing, with the school requiring that I go to therapy, it couldn't be one of the school therapists. And we kind of lived in the middle of nowhere. So my father comes home one day and is like, I have found the perfect therapist for you. And so he comes home and tells me he has this great therapist and that we are leaving right then to go meet her. And the whole way there, he was really talking her up and being like, oh, she knows this person. And, like, people that he knew that I admired. So I finally meet her, and for the first couple months, was very. Not going to tell her anything. I was very, very reserved. And then I think three or four months into it, I. My father had pushed me down the stairs, and I. Oh, my God. Had, like, a massive bruise on my face. Oh, my God, that's terrible. And I went to therapy the next week, and I had tried to cover it with makeup, but I wasn't really good at doing makeup, so. So I think I thought I had it covered. She definitely saw it. And in that session is when things kind of shifted to something more serious is going on.

[Arden]

You guys have to see this new movie that's coming out on July 10th.

[Mackenzie]

The invite. Oh, my gosh. I just watched the trailer, and I'm freaking out. I do love same Olivia Wilde directed films. She did Book Smart, and she did Don't Worry, Darling, and this one is

[Arden]

right up our alley, and Seth Rogen is in it, and I'm a big fan of Seth Rogen and Penelope Cruz. Edward Norton, y'. All. This is gonna be good. I just watched the trailer, and it's amazing. Oh, My gosh, I can't wait.

[Mackenzie]

So it's about a marriage that's on thin ice, and they invite this upstairs neighbor couple to a dinner party, and then it spirals into unexpected places. It's a dark comedy. It's a 24, which has a very distinct kind of edginess to it. Sharp, provocative. I think it'll get us thinking and talking. I kind of want to do a little movie discussion. So it's in select theaters now. It started to be there on June 26, and it's nationwide July 10. So you have to go see the invite, and then you have to let us know what you think about it, because it's kind of our genre of relationship. Dark comedy, provocative thinkings, philosophy, and then also, like, what's gonna happen? We don't know. Mystery.

[Arden]

Ah. And I think if you're someone who's in a super vanilla kind of relationship, this might help bring you out of your shell a little bit. It seems like.

[Mackenzie]

It seems like it. A little polyamory or some kinkiness, which we talked about last week. But I love in the. In the trailer, Seth Rogen's, like, looking around the room at Penelope Cruz and Olivia Wilde, and he's like, okay, wait, let me get this straight. You want me involved? You and me, you're sure? You guys, me, we love him.

[Arden]

But I love that about him, though. That. That little bit of self deprecation that he always provides. Excited for this cast.

[Mackenzie]

It's also kind of. I feel like it's kind of like the Dating Detectives, where it's the kind of movie that makes you confront your own relationships. Talk about maybe some conversations you've been avoiding or didn't even know that you needed to have.

[Arden]

And some uncomfortable conversations that we explore with our guests and our dog Fish.

[Mackenzie]

Or who knows, maybe some fun conversations. One of the descriptions is fulfillment requires a little risk, which is scary, but sometimes fun. And I feel like this will push the boundaries of what this couple is comfortable with. And if there's anybody I want to watch navigate kind of funny, kind of twisted sexual dynamics with their upstairs neighbor, it seems like a Olivia and Seth,

[Arden]

a silly but dark, comedic, twisty way of pushing these couples to confront things that they've been politely avoiding.

[Mackenzie]

It's emotionally honest but also funny, which is our personal brand we try to do, but probably probably not at this level. This is iconic. I can already tell it's going to be great. Olivia Wilde, Seth Rogen, Edward Norton, and Penelope Cruz. Stacked cast. So good. The invite is in select theaters on June 26th, nationwide. July 10th. Get tickets now.

[Emily]

So I have this massive bruise on my face. And she kind of was like, oh, what happened? And I couldn't think of any lie fast enough. And so I just sat there and stared at her. And a minute later was like, I think I'm supposed to tell you I fell down the stairs.

[Arden]

Oh, my God.

[Emily]

And that was. And that was kind of her. That was kind of the same reaction that she had. And I think in my mind, because I wasn't telling her, like, hey, my father pushed me down the stairs, that she didn't have to report it.

[Arden]

Oh, God.

[Emily]

Yeah. And her demeanor immediately changes, and she's like, can you say it again? And I was like, no, No, I cannot. And she was like, where? Like, where do you want to go from here? And I was like, I don't know. I didn't mean to say it. It's not true. And, like, I immediately started, like, backpedaling and was like, it's not true. I didn't mean to it. And we just sat there in silence for, I would say, probably, like, five or 10 minutes. And she finally was like, I think I need to report this. And so she told me that she would talk to her supervisor and call me later that night. And so I left her office and was panicking because realistically, every time I did tell someone, it just made things worse for me at home, because it didn't matter. It was his word against mine, and he was someone who was well respected, and I was the kid who had already been in treatment and was addicted to drugs and was drinking, and so I had to be the problem. And so later that night, Sarah calls and was like, hey, I talked to my supervisor. Can you clarify what you said? And then was like, he's here with me. Me. And I immediately panicked and was like, nothing. I. I didn't mean it. I was mad at my father. I didn't mean it. And I knew that the only person that would ever get hurt in this situation was me. And so I very much was like, I didn't mean it. I don't know what you're talking about. Like, let's move on. So then I go back to the next session, and her demeanor has very much changed almost in a way where she's become motherly. She hugged me and was like, it's okay. I know that you only lied to me because my supervisor was here. And she very much came in like the savior, where she's like, I believe you. I've met him. I Know that. That this is happening to you. And she just would continue to be like, it's safe for you to tell me. And being overly kind.

[Arden]

And were you skeptical that she was

[Emily]

being so kind in the moment? It felt really good. I. Because no one was listening before. Yeah. I had not had a single person tell me that they believed me. All of the adults in my life were failing me. And so when she's all of a sudden, they're listening and comforting, and also the fact that she was old enough to be my mom. So when the switch came and she was being overly comforting and over overly motherly, I would say I felt like I finally had the mom that I had never had before. And I did start to feel safe, and I did start to open up a lot more. And we had had a session a couple weeks after that where she kind of, like, reiterates the rules as far as, like, what she has to report. And she was giving examples of things that I could say instead, where I could be like, oh, someone pushed me down the stairs, rather than being like, oh, my father pushed me down the stairs.

[Arden]

Mm.

[Emily]

And I was also very sexually promiscuous at this age. And so I had also started opening up to her about that. And I was having relationships with not significantly older women, but, like, 18, 19, 20, which, again, is not okay.

[Mackenzie]

But you're still only 15.

[Emily]

Yeah. And so I would tell her those kinds of things, and she would ask me how old they are and then be like, but don't tell me their name. And I saw that as a way of her trying to protect me. So in that time, it felt like I finally have that one person who cares about me and who's on my side and who believes me and who wants me to be successful in life. Because even in residential treatment, it was a lot of people talking to my parents and my parents saying one thing and me saying another. And they were always very much on the side of my parents. And she portrayed it in a way of like, I'm doing this to protect you. I know that if I call the police, he's just going to hit you harder. And she would sometimes say, like. She would sometimes say things like that. And it felt almost like affirming to me because that was what happened. So then, a couple weeks after my 16th birthday, things between my father and I at this point had become increasingly more intense. I was kind of doing whatever I want, whatever I wanted. Like, I was staying out late. I was doing drugs. I was drinking a lot. I was driving my car really fast. Like, I just didn't really care. It had come to a point where I just didn't want to be. Like, I couldn't survive another two years in that environment. And so I just didn't care anymore. Oh, God. And that led to a lot of acting out. There's one story where I had cocaine in my backpack at school, and the principal called me into his office, and I snorted the line of cocaine off of his desk because I knew that he was going to call my parents. And I wanted.

[Arden]

Wow.

[Emily]

Like, it was like, things like that where I felt like I had a little bit of control. I knew my father was gonna beat the shit out of me. It just. It gave me this sense of power. And I think, too, I wanted people at school and out in the community because my behavior was not normal. Obviously, something more was going on. And so I felt like when I would do the more extreme things like that, the other parents would talk about it, and then they would talk to my parents about it. And so then it. It became a hope where, like, as much as I didn't want to get sent away, I think I did. Like, I think my behavior was saying that I did because it was safer for me to be literally anywhere other than home. So then a couple weeks after I was 16, my father and I get into an argument over, like, he had sent me a text or he had said that he had sent me a text. I didn't get it. And I was like, oh, there must be something wrong with my phone. And he had taken that so personally, as if I had said there was something wrong with him. And he immediately rips my phone out of my hand. And I think almost like, reflexively. Is that a word? Like, yeah, like, take it back from him. And I really wasn't thinking. Like, I had never done anything like that. I was high, but I had never done anything like that. And so he throws me up against the wall. He's choking me. Oh, my God. I didn't lose consciousness fully, but definitely thought that he was going to kill me.

[Arden]

Oh, wow.

[Emily]

And I didn't even try to fight him because I knew that that was just going to make it worse for me. And I think at that point, I had decided that if the opportunity where he was going to kill me came, then I was going to take it. Because at least if he killed me, then somebody would look into it, right?

[Arden]

Yeah. Then somebody would actually maybe do something.

[Mackenzie]

And also, if you fight back, doesn't matter, where are you going to go? Even if you get Away. Where do you go?

[Arden]

You're stuck.

[Emily]

Yeah. And so that was the one time that I called the police, and he was very drunk. And by the time the sheriff came, which, to be fair, was like 45, 50 minutes later, he had already fallen asleep. And the sheriff comes in and kind of talks to him, and they're like, hunting buddies. They go hunting together. Like, when he showed up at our house, I recognized him, not because he was the sheriff, but because he was like my. A friend of my father's. And so I let him in, and he goes into my father's bedroom to talk to him as my father's passed out, which, again, just felt like such a weird like. Like he just walked into our house and knew right where my father's bedroom was and had no problem just walking in there. So then the sheriff comes out and is really dismissive and very much was like, good thing you guys sleep on separate floors of the house. Like, go to bed. Tomorrow's a new day. And then as he's walking out the door, he turns around and he goes, oh, I have to ask you, for legal purposes, do you need medical attention? And I. I saw that as an opportunity because I knew when my father woke up the next morning that it was going to be terrible. And so I was like, yeah, I do. And the sheriff looked at me and was like, you look fine. And then walked out of the house and went, like, about his way. Yeah.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, my. That's so disgusting.

[Emily]

It's like, again, I had no idea if my father was gonna wake up. I didn't have any access to money. I did have a car, but my father would, when he would fill it up, would only put enough gas that I could get wherever I was supposed to be going the next day. He was filling up my car from, like, a gas tank every night.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, my God. That's an. Such an extreme level of control.

[Arden]

Control. Yep.

[Emily]

And so I did. I did have a cell phone which was heavily monitored by him, and I was not tech savvy. So, like, I was not downloading any super secret apps to talk to anyone. Like, I. Everything that was on my phone, I knew that he could see. And so I'm scrolling through people that I can call, and Sarah's name pops up. And I'm like, I can call her and leave her a message and see if she can get me in early. So I call her and she answers almost immediately. And it was, I would say, almost midnight at this point. And she answers almost immediately and is like, hi, Emily, what's wrong. And I was immediately like, oh, my gosh. Just the kindness in her voice, the fact that she answered right away, it immediately made me feel so safe. And so I was like, do you have a few minutes to talk? I know it's late. I know this isn't something I do. And she was like, no, it's fine. I'm available whenever you need. And so we spend the whole time that I'm waiting for my brother, which was probably like 30 minutes by the time he got there, just kind of like talking. And I immediately tell her what happened. And I was like, I called the sheriff. This sheriff left. Like, I. I don't know what to do. I don't feel safe. And she was like, I need to talk to my supervisor, but I'll call you first thing in the morning. So then my brother gets home, and it was very much like, just go to bed and we'll deal with it in the morning. And so the next morning, Sarah calls. And when I say she called me right away in the morning, I think it was like 7:30 when she was calling me. And so she's like, I have an opening today. I've cleared some time. Just come. And so I go to the therapy session with her, and again, she's overly, overly nice. And I was wearing a scarf, and she's like, take it off. Like, let me see. And she's taking pictures of my neck and the bruises. And it. It felt very.

[Mackenzie]

Like.

[Emily]

It felt very intimate. It felt very. More than what I would assume a therapist would be doing. Like, this is someone else's job. And so, again, I think it just continued to confirm that she did care about me. She did want what was best for me. She was willing to do whatever it took to help me. So I got home that night, and my father is sitting at the table waiting for me. And I was like, we need to talk. And I knew just by the way that he was acting that, like, it wasn't good. And so he was like, you can't ever see her again. Like, you're not. Like, we're gonna. Yeah, like, you can't because she helped you.

[Arden]

I'm sorry, what?

[Emily]

Yeah. Yeah. So he's like, you can never see Sarah again. I've reached out to her office. You guys are not allowed to talk to each other. She's not allowed to call you. If you call her, she can get in big trouble. And I just was instantly so angry, and I started yelling at him, and. And I think in that moment, I just didn't care Anymore. And I'll be honest. I think there was a part of me that was trying to provoke him a little bit just because I needed out. If I didn't have Sarah, then that meant there was no one that I could talk to. And there was no way that he was going to let me see a therapist and be open about anything. Like, I knew that it was over at that point. And so he beats me. And then I go to bed. And the next morning I wake up and I go to school and I'm telling my best friend what happened. And she was like, you can use my phone to call her. And so I call her and she's panicking. And I was like, it's okay. Thank you for everything that you've done for me. And she was like, you need to tell the counselor at school that you're going to kill yourself. And I was like, oh, what? And she repeats it. And I was like, I'm not going to. Like, my life is shitty, but I'm not going to kill myself. And she was like, no, you need to go to the school counselor and tell her that you are going to kill yourself. That you have a plan. You can make up a plan. I can give you a plan. You need to go tell the school counselor.

[Mackenzie]

I. And that feels really risky to give to a kid in your situation. First of all.

[Emily]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Mackenzie]

And her justification is what? That. That'll mean they'll take you more seriously.

[Emily]

That I would get help. Yeah. That I would be admitted to a psychiatric facility. And I think at that point it was just more about getting me away from him because I. I didn't want to kill myself. And she knew that.

[Arden]

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[Mackenzie]

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[Arden]

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[Mackenzie]

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Like that's so cute and their under eye stuff. Oh my God. Oh my God.

[Emily]

It's so good. I love it.

[Arden]

For brightening and de puffing. It's amazing.

[Mackenzie]

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[Emily]

So I go to the school counselor and I'm like, I'm going to kill myself. Here's the plan. And she immediately calls my father. My grandparents come to get me. I'm taken to the psychiatric hospital. I was there for a couple weeks and then I went to a very intense inpatient facility. I didn't really have any contact with the outside world. It was very, very different from the facility that I had been in previously. We didn't really have any, we didn't really have any like basic rights even. We didn't have any downtime. We couldn't read books, we couldn't color, we couldn't draw. A lot of our personalities were stripped and we became a group of individual people who all acted the same versus individual people who then formed a group.

[Arden]

Wow.

[Emily]

I ended up getting emancipated while I was there. Sarah actually would play a pretty big part in me getting emancipated just because I needed proof that my parents were trying to say that I was crazy and that I was delusional and that I had all of these mental health problems and had gotten the facility to send me to a very specific inpatient psychiatric facility where my father's best friend then becomes my psychiatrist. So I, I'm, I'm 16 being diagnosed with ALL of these crazy, like they diagnosed me as schizophrenic and delusional and all of these crazy things. They have me on every medication under the sun like I'm a walking zombie. And I obviously was struggling. I was alone. I. There was no like special treatment. Like there was no special treatment given to me. The expectation was that I got up every Day and went to GR groups and went to school. We were doing summer school. And so I was really, really struggling. And. And so then about six months after my 16th birthday, I decide that I don't want to go home ever again. I don't want to go back and live with my father.

[Arden]

Who could blame you?

[Emily]

I lock into this idea that I'm going to be in this facility until I'm 18. And then when I'm 18, I. We'll get to go live my life and we'll see.

[Arden]

I don't have to deal with this anymore.

[Emily]

Because even like that environment where I had zero autonomy, where it was, I mean, military style, scheduling, terrible food and no privileges and no freedom whatsoever, felt better than what I knew I would be going home to. And so I would do really, really good. And then they would start talking about discharge planning and what was next. And then I'd be like, no, I'm not going home. And if you continue to follow the rules and have good behaviors, insurance isn't going to continue to pay for you to be somewhere you don't need to be. So then it was like, I would do really good, and then I'd have to act out simply because that was the only thing that was keeping me from being discharged. And so emancipation comes up and there's laws that you can't. Like you. There's. In some states, you, in order to be emancipated, you have to have your parents permission. And then in other states, if you can prove abuse, neglect, serious bodily harm, things like that, then they allow you to file for emancipation. And so I go back and ask my group leader. I'm like, hey, I want to get emancipated. I need emancipation paperwork. And I'm kind of going through them. And one of the things that I was required was that I needed a therapist who was willing to advocate that I was mentally sound enough to go live on my own and enter Sarah again. Yeah. Yeah. And so I got a lawyer pro bono. And I kind of told her, you know, I. I know someone who could maybe help. I'm not really sure where things with Sarah stand. It's been a year and a half at this point since I've seen her. I don't know where things are at. And she's like, oh, don't worry, I'll reach out to her. I will see if she's willing to help you. She sends her an email less than an hour later, gets a response, and is like, I am willing to do whatever it takes. I Always knew she was in an unsafe environment. Whatever we can do to help her and protect her. And so my lawyer then forwards that to me or to, to my group leader. My group leader again is like legally required to share it with me. And I just instantly felt hope. I felt like maybe this can happen. And so my lawyer really advocated for Sarah to be put on my contact list so that I was able to talk to her. Because it was a professional relationship and not a personal relationship. I was allowed to talk to her up to 10 minutes a day during the business day.

[Mackenzie]

What were those conversations like when you did get to talk to her? Was it like continued therapy or was she just your friend now?

[Emily]

It felt more therapeutic than friendly. There was a lot of going through what had happened in that year that I was seeing her, telling her what had happened in the facility, kind of how I was feeling where I was at, in like a mental space at that moment. And she was very positive and very reassuring that I'm going to have no problem getting emancipated. She's willing to do whatever it takes to make sure that I don't end up under guardianship of my father. And at no point did I doubt what she was saying. I very much believe that she was doing. And she was. And so then the day for the hearing comes and she showed up and was testifying that she believed everything that I was saying and that there was serious evidence proving that what I was saying was true, that she had documented photographic evidence, she had recorded phone calls with my father, I guess that I didn't know about. Like I didn't hear about that until she was testifying. And so ultimately the judge decided that I could be emancipated. And that made it so I didn't get to leave the residential facility right away. I was required to finish out my programming there. And then I was required to go to an independent living style facility for a minimum of three months. The other part of the emancipation was that I was then again legally required to go to therapy. And I had the opportunity to see Sarah again. And it wasn't very long. I think there was only about two months in between when I was, was legally emancipated and started seeing her. And when I left the facility, but when I was seeing her in the facility it was via telehealth and there was a staff member sitting in the room with me. So there wasn't really any. It. It was a lot of just preparing for the outside world. Like what do I do now? What are My next steps. Now I'm an adult.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah. Where are you going to live? How are you going to make money?

[Emily]

Yeah. And I. I had already graduated high school and already had an associate's degree. I had always. Good for you. But I was very much like, I don't. Like, I don't want the traditional life. I don't want to go to college. There was no part of me who thought I was going to live this long, let alone ever be.

[Arden]

What a horrible thing to have to feel. Ugh.

[Emily]

And I. I never thought, like. Because every aspect of my life had been so controlled, I think I didn't understand what it was like to truly be free, to make my own choices every day. No one's going to tell me I need to wake up at this time. Nobody's telling me what to do. And I very much took that opportunity and ran with it. So I leave the facility. I move in to independent living. I decided that I wanted to join the military. And my recruiter was like, you need your therapy records, but we can't have you in therapy. Because the way the military viewed mental health at that time was very different than how it is now. And they were like, you can see her, but you can't use your insurance. Because if you use your medical insurance, the military has access to see it. And it just wasn't a game that I wanted to play. I didn't have any money. I didn't have anywhere to live. I. I was living in independent living, but, like, I was too young to rent my own apartment. I didn't have any credit because I was only 17. I couldn't get a lot of jobs. I started working at the coffee shop, and even then, I was making minimum wage and washing floors because I wasn't allowed behind the bar because I wasn't 18.

[Arden]

You weren't old enough.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Mackenzie]

I totally understand why the military was appealing.

[Emily]

Yeah. And they were offering, like, $30,000 bonuses, and I didn't even know what $30,000 was. Like. I got my first paycheck. I think it was, like, $250. So I ended up joining the army. So I go through the process, and part of the process is, you know, they need my therapy records from Sarah. And so I reached back out, and at that point, I had kind of decided that she had helped with things. But going into the military, I was going to be moving. I, like, I was very much like, I want to use this as an opportunity to start over. And so I reached out to her office and was like, hey, I Just need my records. Let me know when I can come get them. And then she sends me an email and is like, I think we need to schedule a session. I'm more than happy to give them to you, but I want to talk to you first. Which isn't totally. Isn't totally out of the norm.

[Mackenzie]

Okay.

[Emily]

I think it felt more. I think if it was anyone else, I would have felt like it was just part of the standard procedure, but because it was her, I felt like it was. She just wanted to see me again, which felt good. Like, you want to see me. You want to. Like, all I need is my records, but you want to spend more time.

[Mackenzie]

Check in. Yeah, Check in on you.

[Emily]

And so, like, that felt really good to me. And so we're in this session, and she's going over things, and she's like, are you sure you want to join the military? Are you sure this is what you want? Do you know what you're signing up for? And, like, I didn't. I had zero idea what I was doing. I just needed a way out. And so she was like, there's other options. I can help you. And at that point, my recruiter had really played up how great the army life was going to be for me, so I was like, oh, of course. I was like, no, I don't need anything from you. Yeah. So we had that one session, and then I ended up leaving for basic training, and then kind of did my thing. And my time in the military isn't really relevant with the exception of the marriage. So while I was in the military, I met my first wife, and we didn't. First wife, first wife.

[Mackenzie]

I'm. I'm interested.

[Emily]

There's a couple more. So, yeah, I met my first wife, and we had known each other for, like, 30 days when we got married. Emily.

[Mackenzie]

What?

[Emily]

And we were not spending time with each other. We didn't even live in the same state, so we were doing a lot of FaceTime and those kinds of things. But we. We definitely had a lot in common. I really loved her, and I. And I think she really loved me, and we had a lot of fun together. And so I did one year of active duty on deployment, and then I did two years of inactive reserve stuff. And when I came back, I definitely needed therapy. And it wasn't until I started going back to therapy, where then I would see Sarah, and I would be like, oh, my wife and I are doing this, and I'm having so much fun with her. And, like, I love the life that I have with her. And then Sarah would be like, yeah, but she leaves the cabinet doors open and that makes you upset. And she doesn't even try to close them. And like, oh, okay, well, we. Let's.

[Mackenzie]

I want to like go chronologically a little bit because I feel like, is there any. Why were you so down to get married after 30 days? Is there. Was there a benefit in the military? Obviously, sometimes when you're married you get benefits differently. Or were you just like, this gives me security and safety after this. Like, now I have a family of my own.

[Emily]

I think it was just the culture of being in the military. Like, I am not even kidding. There is probably 15 different proposals that are basic training, graduation. Like, oh my God, I feel like I. One, like, housing is better. Like, married couples do get better benefits. But it was weird to be over the age of 20 and not been through your first marriage. And there's also the incentive of if you're unmarried, they don't get to live with you. So that allowed us to then be able to be together. And I would say that she was the first person that I love. She was the first partner where in the beginning she was truly my best friend and I loved living life with her.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, were you honest with her about everything growing up?

[Emily]

Yeah. Yeah. And it was, it was a thing where like, she would sit there and listen to me and let me feel however I wanted. And I had never really gotten that outside of my relationship with Sarah where there was someone in my life who I could be fully honest with and I could be vulnerable with and I could just like exist. I didn't feel like I had to put on a show for her. I didn't feel like I had to be any different than who my authentic self was. And it was truly such a great relationship. We really did share everything with each other. And it wasn't until Sarah started being like, oh, because. Because I think I would go into sessions and be like, oh, she left the cabinets open. And it drives me crazy. Not in like a, oh, I need to divorce her.

[Mackenzie]

But like, yeah, how do I manage my. I'm getting a little short tempered. Let's talk about how to navigate my annoyance. That's normal.

[Emily]

I am a very clean person. Like, my, my house is very clean. Everything has a spot. It's very much like, I need a clean environment to exist. And she wasn't dirty or gross in any way, but wouldn't put the laundry away, wouldn't ever empty the dishwasher. A lot of the household chores. She didn't do. And so I would tell Sarah about these different things that, you know, she doesn't make the bed. She doesn't rinse out her glass. She doesn't put her shoes by the door. She folds the laundry the wrong way. Just like those things that. I knew I was the problem. She was not even the problem. I was the problem. And then Sarah would be like, oh, if she respected you as her wife, then she would do better. She would try harder. She would care more about making sure that you're okay and that you're happy. And it was very much being like, she's responsible for your happiness. Her job is to make you happy. And anytime I would bring up something that my wife was doing, she always had something where she would make it the worst. As if, like, my wife was out having an affair, she'd be like, she left the cabinet open. She might as well have had an affair. And it became very much like a she doesn't respect you thing.

[Arden]

Yeah.

[Emily]

Like, if she respected you, if she truly loved you. And I had a lot going on. I was finishing my undergraduate degree. I was stressed. We were broke as shit. There was just a lot of outside stress going on. So there was already starting to become, like, I think the honeymoon stage had started to wear off. And despite the fact that we did very much love each other and we very much did want our marriage to work, we started having issues. And I would go see Sarah, and I would come back, and it's like, oh, she left the cabinet open. That's a sign that she's disrespecting me. And then I would be like, why the are you disrespecting me? And despite the fact that my wife and I weren't having any conversations about it, I would get more and more worked up about it. And then I would go talk to Sarah, and Sarah would continue to work me up and continue to make me feel like my wife was personally attacking me.

[Arden]

And of course, you. You go with what she says, because this is someone you believe. This is someone that from the jump, you trusted well.

[Emily]

And she's supposed to be the expert, right? Yeah, yeah. She's, you know, she's older, she's wiser, she has a degree. And in this thing, she knows me so well. There was no part of me that thought that she was manipulating me or anything. Like, I would go in and I would listen to her, and I would leave feeling so resentful towards my wife. Like, just so. Like, I'm miserable. I deserve so much better. And in reality, this woman loves me and is doing the best that she can. And I didn't have parents that were telling me, like. Like there was no one in my life that was guiding me on how to make adult decisions besides Sarah. Like, I would have a job interview and I would be like, what do I wear to a job interview? And Sarah would. Would tell me. I would be like, I need to open a bank account, but I don't know how to open a bank account, and I just need help. And so she would help me open a bank account. Like, there were all of these things where nobody had ever taught me how to do it. Nobody had ever taught me what I was supposed to be doing. Like, taxes. Like, I didn't file taxes for my first two years because I didn't know I had to. And like, yeah, Sarah was fundamental stuff that.

[Arden]

This. Yeah.

[Mackenzie]

Did Sarah. Was Sarah, like, married? Did she have kids? What's her situation?

[Emily]

Yeah, so she had one kid. I think he would have been a preteen at the time. And she had boyfriends. It felt like every six months she was in a new relationship with someone.

[Mackenzie]

And how much was she telling you about that?

[Emily]

Not, not like intimate details, but she would come in and be like, oh, I am going to go on vacation in a couple of weeks with my boyfriend. Or like, oh, my. I. Like, we did this thing where I was allowed to ask her one personal question at the end of session. And usually my personal questions were things like, do you wear socks to bed? Like, just weird. Yeah, just like weird. Random, whatever. And huh. There was one time where I was like, oh, do you have a boyfriend? And she was like, yeah, I do. Do you want to know more about him? And I was like, no, not really. I just wanted to know if you had one. And she was very much like, oh, I can tell you more about him. And I was like, no, I really don't care. But.

[Mackenzie]

But then like, no, I'm paying you.

[Emily]

Yeah. But then would start to talk about him, and a couple weeks later, then had the framed picture of the two of them in her office. And I was like, I'm glad. I'm glad you're having some.

[Mackenzie]

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[Emily]

And so everything is continuing normal. We're having these sessions. I started seeing her twice a week. At one point. I had lost a friend of mine and was really struggling with how to navigate that. I had experienced grief before, but nothing, nothing like that. And it's then that I feel like her. Her walls start to come down a little bit. It was. It was also the first time that I had ever been open about how much, like, I was truly struggling. And I had always had passive suicidal thoughts. Like, I'd wake up on a random Tuesday and be like, I wish I wasn't alive anymore. But I wasn't coming up with plans. I wasn't. Like. It was just a situation where it's like, I. You know, I'd been in therapy for years at that point. I'd been away from my father and my family for years, and I still wasn't feeling better. I was still so stuck in the loop of that life. Things with my wife are continuing to go downhill. I'm talking to Sarah and kind of telling Sarah everything that's going on, how sad I am. And she's telling me, oh, don't tell your wife that if you don't want her to leave, you don't. Like, don't tell her how sad you are.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, my God.

[Arden]

That's terrible advice.

[Emily]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Mackenzie]

This sounds so much like mackenzie doesn't this kind of. I feel like I hear this happening in other relationships on the show. Like, when people are like, oh, don't tell your family about this. Like, it's us against the world that comes up so much in abusive isolation, like, controlling relationships. Like, yeah, she's exact. Exactly. She's isolating you from your support system outside of her.

[Emily]

And. And it had gotten to a point where, like, I had so much respect for her. I thought this woman walked on water. She was the hero in my story. And it became every session was her talking shit about my wife and saying that I was miserable and pretending not to be miserable. And it was clear to her how miserable I really was and that I deserved so much more and I deserved so much better. And despite the fact that my wife was treating me well, like, I. I'll admit I was probably the problem in the relationship because I wasn't telling her things and then expecting her, you know, like, I would be upset about something, not telling her why I'm upset, and then being like, why isn't she asking me why I'm upset? So finally it's just getting worse and worse and worse. And I am continuing to tell Sarah, my wife and I start having arguments over ridiculous things. And I would look at my wife and just instantly become irritated for no reason. And I was going to therapy and being like, I need help with this. I, I love this woman, I want to spend the rest of my life with her. But now even looking at her, I just get angry because it's like, why can't you do more? Why can't you do better? When in reality she's working 12 hour days, she's trying to do everything that she's got going on. And it really does make me sad that Sarah was so easily able to convince me that my wife had become this villainous person.

[Arden]

And it's the. I talk about this all the time. The illusory truth effect. The more your brain hears something, the more you believe the probability that it could be true, even if it isn't, even if it has zero evidence whatsoever, your brain, it is literally, scientifically, you will start to believe it just because that's where you're. The more you hear it, the more you, your brain thinks it could be true.

[Emily]

So a few months later, I am sitting in a session with Sarah and something was weird and I wasn't really quite sure what was going on. And she finally blurts out that she saw my wife making out with a man at a bar. They just happened to be at the same bar. And my wife would frequently go out with her friends on. At the time I was working Friday, Saturday nights and I wasn't 21. And so she would frequently go out with her friends who were 21.

[Mackenzie]

Oh my God. And yeah, therapists listening. Weigh in. If you see your client's partner cheating,

[Arden]

what do you do? What's the ethical thing to do? Ethically, ethically and yeah, legally, all the things.

[Emily]

Yeah. And it wasn't the first time that she, because she would kind of be like, oh, do you think she's cheating on you? Do you think she's cheating on you? And I would just be like, no, I don't think so. But then it had gotten to the point where it's like, well, maybe, maybe she's cheating on me again. She was just putting it in my head and I started to believe, what if this is true? What if she is cheating on me and I'm just too naive to see it. And so in the session she's like, I saw her. And so I instantly am like, do you have any proof? What am I supposed to do. And she was like, I think you need to leave her, go home, confront her about it. You know, she's going to lie. She's not going to tell you the truth. And my wife and I, we didn't check each other's phones. We had that trust. Like, I wasn't going through her stuff. I wasn't checking. We had each other's locations, but I wasn't checking it unless I was worried about, you know, it's 3:00am and you're not home.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Emily]

And so the idea of going through her phone or trying to find proof that she was cheating was something that I had never even thought about. And so Sarah's telling me all these things, and then she starts telling me about how she had a boyfriend who had cheated on her, and she stayed with him and he just continued to cheat. And she wished that she would have left when she first found out and was pushing me to. Leaving her was my only option. And if I chose any other option, then I was just going to hurt myself worse. And so, of course, wow. Of course I go home and the first thing out of my mouth is, I know you're cheating on me. And she was genuinely shocked. I can remember the look on her face. And she was like. She was genuinely shocked. And she was like, what are you talking about? And I was like, sarah saw you at this bar with this guy. And I was like, you were out. I know you were out. I don't know where you were. And she was like, no, I was there, but I was not making out with any guys. And I was like, so you'll admit to being there? And she was like, yeah, it's the bar that we go to all of the time. And that's kind of when it clicked in my head that I had definitely told Sarah that this was a bar that my wife frequented. And I'm like, would she be dumb enough to make out with a man in a bar in front of her friends who were also like, our friends. They were our couple friends. So at first I was like, well, maybe she's telling the truth. Maybe Sarah thought she saw something. You know, bars are dark and crowded and whatever.

[Mackenzie]

Maybe they get hugged.

[Emily]

Yeah. And so I. I kind of believed my wife, but I was still a little skeptical. And so I go back to therapy the next week, and I'm like, how sure were you that my wife was making out with this guy? And my wife was also a gold star lesbian at this point. So, like,

[Mackenzie]

to find that for people like my mom, that might not know what that is.

[Emily]

Oh, okay. So, yeah. The only partners she had ever had were women. She had never had a male partner.

[Mackenzie]

This would be quite a stretch.

[Emily]

Yeah. And because the bar was also a place that you could eat at, I knew a lot of the bartenders, and because I was under 21, wasn't allowed in there past 10pm But I knew these people. We were hanging out there. And the more and more that I would think about it, I found it really hard to believe that she has her own car. We're never home. At the same time, like, I started to find it hard to believe that she would make that choice. She had to know that I would find out if she was doing that.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Emily]

And so I go back to Sarah, and I'm like, she denied it. She said it's not true. And Sarah's immediately like, did you check her phone? And I was like, no, that's not something that we do. Like, no.

[Mackenzie]

Again, therapists weigh in. Obviously, Mackenzie and I can tell y' all to check your phones, but ethically, can a therapist.

[Arden]

And.

[Emily]

And it was just like, she. She was so confident, and my wife was the person that she saw making out with this guy. And so I really was torn between, like, I. I had started. Like, my wife and I were having problems, and so I had started getting in my head, I think, just as, like, 1. The immature person I was at the time into, like, not gonna lie. I'm a little jealous. I get a little jealous sometimes, and human emotion. And my wife was beautiful. She would have no problem try. Like, if she wanted to, she could. And so I didn't really know who to believe. I was very much torn between, like, I. I believe my wife. But also, Sarah's never lied to me. Sarah's never put me in a. Like, if Sarah didn't believe this, she wouldn't be telling me this. And so a couple weeks go by, Sarah and I continue talking about it, and she comes to me this one day and is like, your wife left me this voicemail. And I was like, what? What do you mean? And so I never heard the voicemail. She claims that she accidentally deleted it.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, convenient.

[Emily]

Yeah. And I thought maybe she was saying that she accidentally deleted it because she didn't want me to hear it. So she's telling me that essentially this voicemail is my wife confessing to having an affair and asking Sarah if she'll be the one to break the news to me that she can't be honest with me.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, my God.

[Emily]

And I feel so dumb. Now, but at the time, why would Sarah lie to me? Why would, like, this person who's been in my corner, who.

[Arden]

Yeah. What's her motive?

[Emily]

Yeah. And I remember that was what I would tell my wife is like, why would she make this up? What does she gain? So then I leave, and I go home, and my wife and I instantly start fighting. And my wife is like, are you sleeping with Sarah? And I was like, what the fuck are you talking about? Like, this isn't about me.

[Mackenzie]

That never crossed your mind?

[Emily]

This is about you? And she's like, some weird shit is happening between the two of you. Don't deny it. And I was like, no, there's not. And she was blaming Sarah for all of our problems and blaming Sarah for putting these ideas in my head. And I wasn't hearing it. I thought she was trying to deflect again, Sarah was the hero in this story. Like, she was the one who told me that my wife was having an affair. She was the one who was protecting me. I truly and genuinely believed that Sarah was telling me the truth and that my wife was just. Just having an affair and disrespecting me and was in it for the money. I made significantly more money than she did.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, my God. And Sarah got to you first. Like, she started conditioning you to believe that your wife was going to go against her. So as soon as she attacked Sarah, it's like, oh, my God. Sarah said this was gonna happen.

[Emily]

And that's. And that had happened before where, like, I was very adamant that I didn't want to take. I have adhd, and I was very, very adamant that I didn't want to take ADHD medication because. Because I felt like it made me more irritable than normal. And it was a decision that my wife and I talked about extensively. We had numerous conversations about it. We did the research. We found other things that we could try first. And really, just because I was struggling at work and I was struggling with paying attention, and I was in college, and I just. I knew that I needed something. Something needed to change, but I was very adamant that I didn't want to do medication. And then, of course, I talked to Sarah about how I don't want medication, and I'm leaving the session, going to call a psychiatrist to write a prescription for medication, she was like, you will function better. I remember when you were on it before, and you were so much better, and you were so much more calm. And her remembering how the medication made me feel was very, very different than what I remembered. But she's again telling me, this is what you told me. And so it's like, maybe I, you know, only remember the bad things because they were what was bad. I don't remember how much it was helping me or whatever.

[Mackenzie]

Right.

[Emily]

And so there's just a lot of situations in which something would happen in my life and Sarah would come to the rescue. She was there. And so I finally decide that I need to file for divorce. I was convinced that my wife was lying to me and that Sarah was telling me the truth. And I didn't think she was being faithful. And when I decided that I was leaving, I left and didn't talk to her again. Sarah was like, you need to go. No contact with her. Sarah was telling me that in order to get divorced, we couldn't talk to each other for 60 days. And of course, I'm not looking any of this stuff up because Sarah's almost 40. Like, she knows how the world works. She, you know, she knows things.

[Mackenzie]

And you're not even 21.

[Emily]

Yeah. Despite the fact that she had never been divorced. But I just really leaned into. Sarah's the only person that I can trust. So she recommends my divorce lawyer. So then Sarah's like, are you willing to sign the release so I can talk to your lawyer? And I was like, sure, yeah, like, tell them. And so then Sarah's talking to my attorney and again making my wife out to be this monster. And finally my wife agrees that we can get divorced. But then we're in this waiting period. We had to wait, I think, 60 days after filing before we could actually have the divorce court or whatever. And during this time, I'm just really depressed. I was seeing Sarah for one to two hours a week, and outside of that, I didn't really have because, like, even our couple friends at that point were kind of like, what? What are you doing? She loves you. You're making a mistake. Like, people had kind of started pointing out that maybe I needed to get a second opinion, and I was very adamant that they were just wrong. They didn't understand. None of them were in therapy. So I would use that a lot and be like, you don't even know what therapy is. Like, you've never been there.

[Mackenzie]

And she's been with you so long, too.

[Emily]

Yeah. And she, to my knowledge, had never lied to me. There was no reason to believe that any of this was wrong. And I feel like I would sometimes question if maybe we were a little too close, but it was always. She would always justify it. And, like, I've Known you for so long. Things are different. Times are changing. Therapists no longer need to be these blank slates that don't have any feelings, you know, and trying to build it up, as we're still being very professional, but also sharing about her personal life and sharing about the things that were happening in her life. So I was just really, really struggling with not not wanting to be alive anymore, and my life was falling apart. I had moved out. I couldn't really afford the apartment I was living in. I was working two jobs. I was really just overwhelmed. And so I had made a plan to kill myself. And I didn't tell anybody about it. I had felt like I had been at that point before, but I had always been able to talk to Sarah about it. And every single time, I would end up, like, hospitalized or like, she. Every. Every time I would end up hospitalized because she. That's what she was supposed to do. So I knew if I went into our session overly sad or being like, hey, I have this plan, or even anything different from my normal behavior always came with a hundred questions about, like, what's going on? And so the session is super normal. I. I was a little bit like. Like, my emotions were kind of all over the place. I was really happy at some times. And then I just kind of randomly started crying. Towards the end, I think I had realized that this was me saying goodbye to her. And I didn't know how to say goodbye to someone that I cared so deeply about without, one, making it weird and two, without being like, hey, I'm going to kill myself. Goodbye. And she knew, like, she knew something was going on. She asked me several times throughout the session what was going on, and I. I just kept being like, oh, I'm fine. I'm sad. I'm happy. I'm just, you know, I'm just kind of all over the place. And I was very much playing it off in, like, the most nonchalant way possible. And then the end of the session comes, and I just started the bawling, and I was like, oh, my God, I need to get out of here. She's going to know. I know I'm being weird. She knew me well enough to know that I was being weird. And so the end of the session comes, and she's like, can you just wait? And I was like, oh, my time's up. And I essentially sprinted out of her office, and I go into the bathroom that's in the hallway, and I'm crying and having a legitimate breakdown. I cry for, like, 10 minutes. And then go out to my car. And when I get to my car, I realized I didn't have my car keys. And I panicked because at this point, like, I knew I didn't leave them in the bathroom. I was, like, hoping and praying that maybe I left them in the bathroom. But I knew I didn't leave them in the bathroom because I would have seen them. And so I did not want to go back inside. I did not want to go ask for them. I debated getting an Uber. I was like, yeah, like, who can I call? Like, who can I call to come pick me up? But again, at this time, was still feeling suicidal. And so it was like, I can't leave my car here because then someone else is going to have to deal with it because I'll be dead. And I can't call my friend because then my friend's going to want to hang out, and I don't have time for that. And so I really did weigh every option besides going back inside, and ultimately decided that my only option was to go back inside. And so I went and checked the bathroom, and they weren't in there. And I go back into her office, and the receptionist immediately hands me a tissue. And they had the little mirror on the wall, and I looked in it, and, like, there's makeup running down my face. I looked terrible. And the receptionist was like, yeah, I'll go grab her. I'll go, Sarah now. And so Sarah comes out and looks at me with this look of almost pity. It was a look that I hadn't seen from her before. And she was like, can you come back to my office? And I. At this point, I was just convinced that she had called the police and I was going to be admitted to the psych unit.

[Arden]

Oh, my God.

[Emily]

I. She's being kind of weird. I had been gone, like I said, for, I think, out of her office for 15 minutes. At that point, there was nobody after me, so she had had plenty of time to call someone. And she also knew that she had my keys, so I wasn't going anywhere.

[Mackenzie]

It's like, you're coming back.

[Emily]

And so I'm panicking this whole time because the last thing I wanted was to be admitted somewhere. I was pretty set on my plan, and I didn't want to be hospitalized. And so there was. She's like, can you come back to my office? And I was like, are the police there? And no. Like, nobody laughed. And she just was like, can you come back to my office? And I was like, okay. So my mind. I'm like, the police are here. I'm getting locked up. It's. My life is over until we get back to her office, and there's nobody in there. And I was like, okay, the police are coming. But I was like, she can't hold me. She can't hold me here. So I immediately was like, where are my keys? And she was like, being able to watch you grow into this beautiful young woman, it's been a privilege to be a part of your life. You have all this potential. Like, she was really just talking me up. So again, in my mind, I'm like, okay, she's having me admitted. She's buying time. She's stalling.

[Arden]

Like, that's what I would think, too.

[Emily]

Yeah. I was like, I just need to get out of here. I wasn't even really listening to what she was saying as much as I was trying to process how I get out of there. And then she is like, I can't live without you. And that was. That was kind of where I was like, oh, I don't think you're supposed to say that. But also, I thought she was just saying it to. I thought she was just saying it to get me to chill out for a minute so that she walked you

[Mackenzie]

off the ledge, for lack of a better term. I mean, did that change anything for you when you heard that?

[Emily]

I think not in that exact moment. Just because, again, I thought she was stalling. I thought the police were coming. I know that people will say just about anything in desperate situations. And so it didn't even really, like. I think it also didn't even process to me how weird that was, how weird her saying that was. And she gets done giving this speech, and I was like, can I have my keys? And she stands in front of the door. And I was like, okay, so the police. The police are coming. Because now she's not letting me leave. And I walked a little bit closer to her, and then she kissed me.

[Arden]

Oh, that's not. That's not. That's not. That's not. That ain't. I feel like that ain't. Oh, my gosh. Y. That ain't even it. That ain't even it. That's not even it. Can you. You, like, that's not even it. And I'm literally. I'm fuming, like, what. What is going on?

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, where we are leaving off? As we get going, this question gets bigger, but we're like, what is the motive? What is the motive? I do want to put it out there. I know we're Going to have a more in depth conversation at the end of part two. But therapists, any therapists listening, or any people who have been in therapy, which is, I'm sure a lot of you and definitely us or any person who's a human, concerns, questions, ethics. I want to hear all your. All of your opinions on it because

[Arden]

I would like to know if anyone says. I want to know the opinion also of anyone who says, well, I could see how this would be okay. Because I just want to know because there's no. I don't. I. Where. This is so jacked up.

[Mackenzie]

This is. Yeah. Devastating. And I'm. Her childhood obviously informed so much of her experience. We will talk about it. Send your questions, send your support to Emily. You can comment on Spotify. They have comments. I think it's fun. Not fun, but, like, I like hearing the moments in these stories that really, really stick with you. And I try to, you know, look on Patreon or the comments and Spotify, if you share those.

[Emily]

So.

[Arden]

And I want to know at which points you go, wait, what?

[Mackenzie]

No, the wtf.

[Arden]

Yeah, the WTF moment. Thank you. Like, honestly, because this I can't even. Like, I'm so. I'm fired up, y'. All.

[Mackenzie]

So. Yes. Join Patreon. $5 a month. Talk to us more. We have a lot to talk about. This is a lot. $9 a month if you want no ad girlfriend experience, wink, wink. Or social media. Dating Detectives podcast. Or you can always email us your story or thoughts. Investigate at the Dating Detectives Podcast. Right?

[Arden]

Yeah.

[Mackenzie]

And nailed it.

[Arden]

Yeah. Tune in next week and get matter. And. And there's that.

[Mackenzie]

If you want to express those emotions with us in person. Chicago shows coming up. Well, one show. One show in Chicago, one in Orlando, one in Tampa. All of the tickets sales are in the show notes, so you can get tickets now.

[Arden]

Yeah, please come. It's gonna be so much fun. It's gonna be. The last one was really amazing and we really enjoyed connecting. So please come. We can't wait to see you.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah. And just so grateful for Emily sharing the difficult details of her upbringing and her whole story. And we'll be back next week for the rest.

[Arden]

Yeah. And it ain't over.

[Mackenzie]

Wait till you hear next week.

[Arden]

Then you're. You're gonna. You're gonna punch more things.

[Mackenzie]

All right, well, until then, as always, always trust your intuition.

[Emily]

It.