The Trap: Part 1

Summary

Episode Overview

In "The Trap: Part 1," the first installment of a two-part series, The Dating Detectives delves into the harrowing story of Sandra, a guest who fell victim to a manipulative and deceitful partner in the complex landscape of modern dating. Hosted by professional Private Investigator Mackenzie Fultz and Comedian Hanna Anderson, this episode sheds light on the subtle red flags and psychological manipulations that can occur in relationships, especially those formed through dating apps.

Sandra's Background

Sandra begins by sharing her personal history, painting a picture of a woman who had previously focused on education and healing from past traumas. "[...] I had been married in 2004. But he ended up dying by suicide in 2009" ([12:41]). This tragic event led her to take a break from dating, allowing herself time to concentrate on her studies and personal well-being.

Meeting and Building the Relationship

In the summer of 2019, Sandra met her future manipulator at a crisis center where they both worked. Sandra was concluding her hours to become a licensed counselor, while he served as medical staff—an EMT. Their shared professional environment fostered a quick bond. "He was very well qualified and very personable and would always go above and beyond for everybody" ([06:14]). Sandra was initially impressed by his charisma and the genuine affection he showed towards colleagues, which established a foundation of trust.

Progression of the Relationship and Financial Entanglement

As the COVID-19 pandemic took hold, their relationship deepened. With increased time spent together, Sandra began to invest emotionally and financially in the relationship. "[...] we went camping. He had a travel trailer and RV, which was pretty big. So he invited me along to go camping with two of his kids and their friends and girlfriends and stuff like that" ([09:15]). Over time, Sandra loaned him money to help pay off debts, believing they were building a future together. "So I loaned him the money, and he started making payments, and he did that pretty consistently for several months" ([23:02]).

Red Flags and Manipulative Behavior

Despite the seemingly strong bond, subtle warning signs began to emerge. Sandra received unsolicited messages from a coworker accusing her partner of deceitful behavior. "I get a bunch of messages from her one morning... telling me that he is using people for money and leading on a bunch of women at the crisis center" ([09:19]). When Sandra confronted him, he dismissed these concerns, claiming the woman was merely a troubled friend. "He was like, we're just friends... I didn't see anything inappropriate" ([21:11]).

The Unveiling of the Con-Man's Deception

The deception escalated when Sandra discovered discrepancies in his explanations about his whereabouts. He claimed to be on business trips in Indiana, but clues like photos from Pensacola, Florida, revealed he was lying. "He was supposed to be in Indiana... but he was actually in Pensacola" ([35:40]). Further investigation led Sandra to uncover that he was entangled in an ongoing affair with a married woman, contradicting his earlier assertions. "I find out that their whole relationship had been an affair, which is why he got divorced" ([41:15]).

Psychological Impact and Isolation

The revelation shattered Sandra's trust and left her feeling isolated. Her partner's manipulation extended to controlling communication and finances. "I couldn't do anything without losing my money and my home and everything" ([44:18]). Emotional abuse intensified as he began blaming her for the unraveling relationship, making her question her own sanity. "I'm like, maybe I am crazy. Maybe I am jealous or insecure" ([46:13]).

The Final Confrontation (Leading to Part 2)

The tension culminated during a planned cruise, where Sandra faced physical aggression. "[...] he grabbed me by the throat and threw me into the elevator" ([54:28]). This traumatic event marked the breaking point, leaving Sandra feeling utterly trapped and powerless, setting the stage for the concluding part of her story in the next episode.

Hosts' Reflections and Support

Hosts Mackenzie and Hanna expressed deep empathy for Sandra's experience, acknowledging the complexity and emotional toll of such manipulative relationships. They emphasized the importance of community support and encouraged listeners to share their own stories or seek help if they recognize similar patterns in their relationships.

Resources and Community Support

Throughout the episode, the hosts highlighted critical resources for those experiencing abusive relationships. They repeatedly mentioned the National Domestic Violence Hotline, providing both phone and text options for immediate support. Additionally, they introduced initiatives like creating supportive stickers to be placed in public restrooms, inspired by positive examples from retailers like Ulta. "Sometimes the sign is the Dating Detectives" ([59:51]).

Notable Quotes

• Sandra: "I had been married in 2004. But he ended up dying by suicide in 2009." ([12:41])
• Sandra: "He was very well qualified and very personable and would always go above and beyond for everybody." ([06:14])
• Sandra: "So I loaned him the money, and he started making payments, and he did that pretty consistently for several months." ([23:02])
• Sandra: "I couldn't do anything without losing my money and my home and everything." ([44:18])
• Sandra: "I'm like, maybe I am crazy. Maybe I am jealous or insecure." ([46:13])
• Hosts: "We love you. I hate that this happened to her, but it is the kind of thing that, like, she needs to focus on heal." ([60:15])

Conclusion

"The Trap: Part 1" serves as a powerful exploration of the manipulative tactics employed by con-artists in the dating world. Through Sandra's story, listeners gain insight into recognizing red flags and understanding the psychological impact of such relationships. The episode underscores the necessity of community support and availability of resources for those in similar situations, setting the stage for the resolution in the forthcoming second part.

Transcript

[Hannah]

The following program contains names, places, and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following program is provided for entertainment purposes only, and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances. If you or a loved one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic violence hotline at 1-800-799-7-7-7233 for support.

[Mike]

Hi. Happy dating Detectives Monday.

[Hannah]

Hi, Hannah. How's everybody doing? Hi. Hey, what's up? That was weird. I don't usually say that, but.

[Mike]

No, that's the vibe I'm getting. Hannah has the eye patches under your eyes, like the caffeine for, like, eye bags, you know, it's one of the things, you know, self caring over here. I love it, I love it, I love it. You look great as always.

[Hannah]

Oh, you too. If you don't know, we record our introductions in our outros after we talk to the guests, so that way we can obviously prepare you and, like, have time to think about it. But, yeah, so we're doing this a few days after talking to our guest today. Her name is Sandra, and the eye masks are necessary because I've kind of been up late thinking about this story the past couple days, if I'm being honest.

[Mike]

Yeah, I think that this one was kind of honest. I. I gotta tell you, like, I was feeling sometime like this will get you in your fe. Like, you'll probably get angry maybe. I know I was. It's just so frustrating, some of these stories. But we're really grateful when you guys send in your stories. So thank you for trusting us to be a platform and an ear for you. It really means a lot to us.

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Glad you're here.

[Hannah]

We really are.

[Mike]

Also. Can we talk about the Patreon for a second?

[Hannah]

Yes, we absolutely can.

[Mike]

If you guys haven't heard, we have a new Patreon tier. So we've had a. The patreon is typically $5 a month, and then you get two bonus episodes. And we do little live events and we have a little, you know, chat forum. And there's also. We have book club and stuff like that. Now There's a new $9 tier where you get all of that and an ad free listening experience. Every time I say that, I always feel like I'm talking about the girlfriend.

[Hannah]

Experience and Free listening experience.

[Mike]

Ad free listening experience. But that's so cool because a lot of people really were Were requesting that the ad.

[Hannah]

So there you have it.

[Mike]

That's the new tier.

[Hannah]

And this, I mean, that's the biz, y' all. If we want to keep bringing these stories, it's ads or Patreon. So if you are on a Patreon, like, that is so appreciated. It doesn't go unnoticed. And we try to get in on the chats as often as we can. And also, I just love how you're all supporting each other. It happens on social media. Patreon is like, I feel like I'm getting to know you. You guys. Yeah, Join Patreon. Also, our next book club book is the Mother Next Door by Andrea Dunlop. And Mike Weber is also an author, but we know Andrea because she's the host of Nobody Should Believe Me podcast.

[Mike]

Such a great pod.

[Hannah]

Yeah. So just remember, pick up that book if you haven't already.

[Mike]

Do we have a date yet for the pod? For the not yet or no? Okay, so we'll let you guys know stat.

[Hannah]

Yes. Couple of things before we go into this story. Oh, yeah, we should just know we're going to come into contact with some serious abuse, like emotional, for sure. And then there's physical and sexual abuse and financial abuse.

[Mike]

All the abuses. It's awful, you guys.

[Hannah]

Yeah, she went through it.

[Mike]

It broke my heart.

[Hannah]

I mean, it's a good depiction of very clear, like the drawn out, slow build, abusive development. And it's horrible. But we need to hear how it happens because half the time you hear these stories, you're like, how could that happen? And this is how. And it happens a lot. And she's awesome. She's a sweetie.

[Mike]

And you guys are always so supportive. So when I. And also I just real quick, I want to let you guys know, we're so grateful for your support. Even just listening to the show is so supportive. But also when you share on your social media. So if there's a story that you hear that just really touches you in a certain way, or you're just like, oh, my gosh, I can't believe this. Or you feel like it needs more attention or you have something sweet you want to share with our guest, please. We really appreciate that because that sense of community is so important to many people. So thank you so much. To those of you who already do.

[Hannah]

That, do you want to tell them or.

[Mike]

Me and Hannah are looking at like, how do we break this, y' all. It's a two parter. I'm sorry, but not sorry, but it's a two parter. But it's Fine. Like, it's the whole story. This is the whole point of, like, ethical stories is that we allow them. And sometimes it's like just something that you don't want to take out too much. Like you want to give them the floor. So that's why some of these are two parter. So thank you for being patient with those. But they're. Hey, it's. Oh, man.

[Hannah]

Yeah, there's a lot here. There's a lot here I am not looking forward to. I know we say this all the time, but I am looking forward to the conversation that comes out of her story because I know it'll help a lot of people.

[Mike]

Yeah, let's do it. Let's let Sandra take this.

[Hannah]

So.

[Mike]

Sandra is here with us, and I'm ready to hear her story. Sandra, would you like to take us on your journey?

[Hannah]

Thanks for being here.

[Sandra]

Oh, thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it. So I am Sandra, and I, I guess have a little tale to tell. In 2019, in the summertime, I met a guy at work. We worked at the same place, and it was a crisis center. So there. There was a lot of time in between people coming in because it was a 24 hour crisis center.

[Hannah]

Did you have like the same role or was he above, below any power mechanics?

[Sandra]

So I was finishing up my hours to be a licensed counselor, which I was able to do, which I am, and he was working as the medical staff. So an emt. Got it.

[Hannah]

Okay. So it was.

[Mike]

Okay.

[Hannah]

Kosher. Totally. Like.

[Mike]

And is it just me or do positions like that, like professions like that make you trust somebody, like, oh, they want to care for people on purpose. So this is kind of a nice person.

[Sandra]

Absolutely. There's a lot of credibility when it comes to that kind of stuff.

[Mike]

Credibility, yeah.

[Sandra]

Do a lot of things to get there. And he did come in and everybody really liked him and got along with him. And he seemed very well qualified and very personable and would always go above and beyond for everybody. You know, people were excited when he was there. He would buy pizza and just be very friendly. So that also gave him a lot of credibility. I was like, wow, everybody else likes him.

[Hannah]

Yeah. You're like, oh, there must be something good there, right?

[Sandra]

So, I mean, somebody to trust really quick was really interesting. And then so I finished up my hours there and he stayed working there. And then Covid started a couple months later, and we were talking and texting and going to lunch and stuff like that. And then, you know, when Covid started, we just were not going Out.

[Hannah]

Right.

[Sandra]

Often we were spending time at his place or at my place or talking at work. And in healthcare at that point, nothing stopped for us. Nothing stopped at the crisis center. Nothing stopped for me counseling either. So everybody else was kind of sitting at home, do nothing.

[Hannah]

I can't imagine being a counselor during the beginning of COVID Well, and that's.

[Sandra]

The thing, is everything was really intense. So when you had somebody else to talk to or confide in that, you know, it was one of those things that would bring us together. And that. That's something that happened throughout our relationship. There was a lot of, like, really intense things that happened, and it brought us together to have somebody to share that with or talk to or connect with that other people didn't seem to understand through the course of that.

[Hannah]

Sure.

[Sandra]

And getting to know him a little bit better, from what I understand is he went through a divorce kind of all at the same time. Like, his divorce finalized in 2019. And then he explained that he was in a relationship after that that ended poorly as well.

[Hannah]

You met him, like, kind of in the middle of all that.

[Sandra]

Right. I was just given this impression that he had just had a run of bad luck. Like, he was just so passionate, and these women didn't seem to understand him, and he just fell hard so fast, and it just kind of left him stranded. The story was that his ex left him with a whole lot of. Lot of debt. And then this woman that he dated afterwards, again, had expensive taste. They were taking vacations and doing a lot of things, and he spent a lot of money on her and then rented a house for them, and she never moved in. So he was out a lot of money because he had spent all of his money on her.

[Mike]

Oh, she. He rented them a house and she never moved in.

[Sandra]

Yes. Which. That. That's accurate because that through 2020, that's the house I helped him move out of. As we were spending more time together, we ended up. We went camping. He had a travel trailer and rv, which was pretty big. So he invited me along to go camping with two of his kids and their friends and girlfriends and stuff like that.

[Hannah]

So he has older children?

[Sandra]

Yeah, they're all adults now. So, I mean, that was pretty significant for me to be included in those family things. And then huge.

[Hannah]

How long had you been together at that point?

[Sandra]

At the time, we were still friends because this was in 2020. You know, we were talking, and I'm like. Because he was dealing with the divorce, and then he was dealing with this other gal and dealing all that and we were just friends. We were friends for about a year and a half before anything physical happened.

[Hannah]

Which is healthy to get to know.

[Sandra]

Each other that way, doesn't it? It sounds sweet. Doesn't.

[Hannah]

Sounds sweet and light.

[Mike]

And I wish.

[Hannah]

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[Mike]

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[Hannah]

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[Mike]

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[Hannah]

It also works on an ongoing basis, so it's always scanning to find things. It's a great first step to protect yourself.

[Mike]

Yes. And you guys, as someone with an active online presence, privacy is really important to me. But I also know that it's important everyone else because I'm also a PI.

[Hannah]

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[Sandra]

You know, I had focused on school for quite a bit and there was some health stuff, and I had been married in 2004. But he ended up dying by suicide in 2009.

[Hannah]

Oh, my goodness. I'm so sorry.

[Sandra]

I took. I took a break from dating and went to school and worked and just kind of didn't for a while.

[Hannah]

I completely understand that. Wow.

[Sandra]

Right?

[Hannah]

So was this. This was the first guy, right?

[Sandra]

I was all done with school. I'm like, well, okay, now's a good time to go out and date. So I was dating intentionally. I was dating to find a person I was dating, you know, to try and be smart about it and thoughtful about it and make a good choice. So taking our time in the beginning was great. It was great to not be pressured for sexual. It was great to have somebody who just wanted to listen and talk to me and that would share things with me too. He shared so many things. It really did feel included in a part of his life because we were talking about so many things. We were talking about all of his relationships. We were talking about stress and finances. We were talking about plans for our lives and what we wanted to do, and they just seemed to match up so nicely so far. Sounds good. And it was. It was. It was really good. I mean, we. We had a lot of fun, and we did a lot of fun things. In the beginning, it was always very busy. He liked to travel and go listen to music. We have a lot of music festivals around here, so those were fun to go to. We took a scuba diving class together.

[Mike]

Can I ask, when did things first cross over from friendship to romantic?

[Sandra]

There were little pieces of it. Like, in March 2020. And I went over to his place for dinner, and then he asked to come cuddle. So we laid in his bed and watched a movie, and I slept there that night. And the next morning when we were leaving, I was getting in my car to leave, and he was going off to work, and he kissed me before I left.

[Hannah]

But were you both feeling it? Like, how did you know that it was gonna go the next step?

[Sandra]

He was really clear. I mean, he would say, hey, you're my person. You're the first person I felt like, this close to since I was married. I can really see having a great future for you. I mean, it was all the right things. And then through the end of 2020, he was still talking about having financial issues. Like, he really thought he wasn't good enough or enough to be in a relationship with me because he had so much stress and so much burden. And then he ended up. He changed jobs. He stopped working in the crisis center. He got lucky and got A job working at a fire department about four hours north of where we lived. He had worked at like volunteer departments as a firefighter for a long time. But he started this little town like no stoplights, nothing, just one grocery store and a bunch of stop signs. This little town started this fire department and somebody that he had worked with before became the fire chief and hired him and called him up to take a job. So he would work his full time job down here in the valley during the week and then go up on Friday and work there over the weekend.

[Hannah]

Oh, wow.

[Mike]

Wow, he's really ambitious.

[Hannah]

And where were you at this point in your relationship? Had it been like, we're in love, we're committed, this is moving forward, or was it still early dating stages when he started going up there?

[Sandra]

At the time, we were spending almost every day together and spending nights at each other's house and stuff like that and, and definitely having conversations about what a life for us would look like. He made it very clear that he wanted to build a foundation for our relationship prior to incorporating sex because he stated that had been an issue in the past relationship and there would have been problems for him there in the past.

[Hannah]

We love a man who can communicate. We love going at our own pace.

[Sandra]

Really good conversation. And as he started working at that fire department up north, I started going with him, which was also a really cool experience. I got to meet everybody in this tiny little town. I got to hang out at the fire department and help out and have dinner and we met a lot of people and it was great. And I, I really enjoyed be like, oh, we're this nice couple and getting to know everybody and everybody knew who I was. And we had all those drives up north that was like a four hour drive. And there was a lot of time. There wasn't cell service, so there was music and he would sing along to the radio and we would hold hands while he drove and just kind of talk.

[Mike]

Oh, that's really sweet. So that sounds like normal sweet stuff.

[Sandra]

Yeah. We would talk about what was going on in our lives and what we wanted to do and how great it was going to be. He's telling me that he loves me and he wants a life with me. So I believed all those things. But then I get a couple of text messages from another gal that worked at the crisis center. Oh, and this adds another she. And, and again, she's not somebody that I really socialized with. We worked opposite shifts and never really spent any time together. But I get a bunch of messages from her one morning, 10 o' clock in the morning on Facebook, where she's telling me that he is using people for money and leading on a bunch of women at the crisis center. And he says he and his girlfriend broke up, but they're still together. She's like, he started messaging me inappropriately, asking me for a threesome with them and a lot of things. And I wake up to a couple of Facebook messages, and then he is calling me as well. So both of those things are going on at the same time. And. And I'm trying to figure out what was going on. And there had been a couple of conversations that he told me that he had talked about her wanting a relationship with him and that he just wasn't interested. So he had already primed me to not believe her if she reached out to me. What I saw was so not like that at the time. I just got this perfectly delightful version of him again. I just thought, oh, my God, what is going on? Like that he was having such a run of bad luck. And that was one of those things that kind of brought us closer together because he did lose a lot of friends during that because some of the people that she talked to just completely cut him out. And he seemed so heartbroken.

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Sandra]

So we got a lot of isolation after that big incident as well. So I wasn't talking to anybody about our relationship to protect it. Right. Because everybody was so upset that we started dating, so I just didn't talk to anybody.

[Hannah]

Wait, this is after the Facebook message or in the beginning?

[Sandra]

You mean after the Facebook messages and stuff like that.

[Hannah]

And did you talk to him about the Facebook messages?

[Sandra]

Yeah, he was on the phone with her and then called me directly that morning, too. And it's like so and so's crazy and. Right. That she wanted a relationship with him, and he kept saying that he didn't want one with her because he didn't want to date a married woman and stuff like that. That she was the one pursuing him.

[Hannah]

Got it. He was a good storyteller.

[Sandra]

Well, I mean. I mean, he wasn't pressuring me for sex or anything like that, So I just assumed that was the case with everybody. I'm like, well, this isn't a guy that just out to get laid. So. Yeah. Maybe she's just mad because.

[Hannah]

So she got rejected.

[Sandra]

It was just. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. So then we go back to traveling back and forth up north to that fire department, doing all those things, and he. He just starts kind of saying everything would be easier if he could just Pay off this debt. Everything could be easier if he could just pay off this debt and just over and over and over.

[Mike]

Oh, so he's talking about the money.

[Sandra]

Yes. And then finally, I'm like, okay, do you need help paying that off? I mean, is that where it is? If you pay that off, then we can be a couple and do all these things. He's like, yeah, that would be great.

[Hannah]

So. And it's been a while, though. I feel like I want to remind the audience, like, how long you've been together at this point and how it's been mostly good, because. So it's easy to just be like, why would you get that money? And it's like, no, it's hard.

[Mike]

What do you say? It's been like a year?

[Sandra]

A year and a half.

[Mike]

Okay. Yeah.

[Hannah]

You guys are, like, best friends.

[Mike]

Yeah. I mean, it makes sense, right?

[Sandra]

And he would take me to dinner, or I would take him to get dinner, or we would, you know, do movies, or he would buy me flowers on my birthday. All of those things.

[Hannah]

You guys were a couple?

[Sandra]

Yeah. And spending time with. We're still spending time with his kids and his parents. And all of those things he had. When he moved out of the old house, he moved some furniture in here. He gave me, like, a bed set and a barbecue and patio furniture. So he had those things at my house. So, yeah, he was spending a lot of time here, and I was spending a lot of time with him, and it seemed like, okay, I can loan you this money. So I wrote up an agreement, and we talked about payment plan and stuff like that.

[Hannah]

Oh, you're so good.

[Sandra]

I thought that would work. So I. I did. I loaned him the money, and he started making payments, and he did that pretty consistently for several months.

[Mike]

Oh, good. And so he's setting an expectation.

[Sandra]

Right. And he was paying a little bit more about getting that paid off. And then. Then we start planning more vacations, romantic weekends in Mexico and things like that. And then several months later, he is asking for more money.

[Hannah]

For what?

[Sandra]

A little bit more to pay to pay everything off so he doesn't have to make payments on anything or interest on anything or.

[Mike]

So he's just like, hey, while you're here, can you just pay all this off and we can just do with it?

[Sandra]

Pretty much. Pretty much.

[Hannah]

And what do you say?

[Sandra]

I say yes. And. And this is when things get very intense, because now we're in a relationship, and we're committed, and it's him and I against the world. And, yeah, we're building this future together. And we're gonna. We started looking at buying houses together and we looked at like if we were gonna rent my house or sell it out, things like that.

[Mike]

Like that's serious. That's getting serious.

[Sandra]

It was very serious at the time. And that's how I was invested. I thought anything I invested in him, we're gonna get back. Right. I help him pay off this debt, he pays me back and then he's putting.

[Mike]

Then you're both clear and you can move on with your life.

[Sandra]

Right. Then we don't have. He doesn't have to work. At that time he was working two full time jobs. So he was working and I would, I paid off all of his bills.

[Mike]

But at this point he's still, Is he still lovey dovey and he's still like showing you the love and making you feel safe and loved and comfortable and all that stuff? Yeah. Was he love bombing at all or just regular, like just normal relationship stuff?

[Sandra]

So much. So much. And he would just come by and come in the house anytime he wanted. He would be here when I wasn't here, waiting for me to come home, like taking a picture in my bed and sending it to me while I was at work.

[Hannah]

Were you like, why aren't you at work?

[Mike]

Yeah, like why are you in my bed? Like I'm jelly.

[Hannah]

No, I'm sure made sense. It was sweet, it was nice.

[Sandra]

I mean it was a good couple e kind of thing. It was nice to know that he was here hanging out, waiting for me to get off work. Stuff like that.

[Hannah]

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[Sandra]

Yeah, we. I mean, we would have dinners. One of his sons helped fix some of the things in the house and would help me with that, which is.

[Hannah]

Yeah, that to me would be an indication that, like, good family. I like his family, I like his friends.

[Sandra]

And then this is where things just start to get crazy.

[Mike]

Oh, no. Oh, no.

[Sandra]

And again, I was so naive. I didn't really know. I was all in. I was all in with this guy. And his taxes come back and he's like, my tax debt is just up and I can't pay it off now. Saying that if he owned a house, he wouldn't have such high taxes every year because those are the things that are just kind of eating it up. And then, like the kids being in college and having expenses for cars and stuff like that, that he just still is not getting out of debt, which. And this is also such a weird thing. He was so transparent with a lot of things. I sat in on his meeting with his accountant, and then he switched and started using my accountant. So we were talking to her as well. Like, would it make sense if we were married? Would we have lower taxes if we owned a home, Would we have lower taxes? Those kinds of things.

[Mike]

Wow.

[Sandra]

So at the time, I just believed everything. So what I. I did, I put his name on my house, on the deed to my house. Oh. And this is all within a course of a year with kind of an updated agreement. He was gonna put my name on his truck and the camper and other properties and stuff. And then I was gonna put his name on my house.

[Mike]

Oh, no.

[Sandra]

And loan him the money. And he was still making payments on the loans. So again, every month. I was totally on board and thought, this would be great. This just makes it easier. And I thought you'd be.

[Mike]

And you thought you helped. You thought you were helping.

[Sandra]

Yeah, I did. I thought I was helping. I thought, you know, this is how relationships go. We just go all in. He was all in with me. I knew everything about him. Right, right. And that year after he moved out of that house, he was staying part time at his parents house. He was staying part time at my house, and then he was working out of town part time.

[Hannah]

Did you guys talk about getting married too, with all of this combining of assets?

[Sandra]

Absolutely.

[Hannah]

And it was that.

[Sandra]

Absolutely. That was an ongoing conversation. But that summer, that week after I put his name on my house, he had to go out of town on a business trip. I was driving. I would take him to the airport when he had to travel And I pulled down the visor and, oh, no, there are tickets to a concert in Alabama.

[Mike]

A receipt that you didn't know about.

[Sandra]

That I was not invited to for that weekend.

[Hannah]

What kind of business trip is this, sir?

[Sandra]

Imaginary business trip.

[Hannah]

So what did you think?

[Sandra]

He was supposed to be in Indiana.

[Hannah]

Okay.

[Mike]

That's not out of freaking Bama.

[Hannah]

That's.

[Sandra]

No, it isn't. It's very different.

[Hannah]

But then, so did you. You say, why are you in Alabama?

[Sandra]

I didn't, because I knew. I mean, he was gone. I'm like, I'm not gonna have this conversation over text.

[Hannah]

Right? Okay. But he's still keeping it up. He's like on the phone, like, I'm in my meeting in Indiana right now.

[Sandra]

Right. So he gets back and we have another one of those drives up north, and I'm like, hey, I don't feel like I'm getting the whole story about your relationship with this gal in Alabama that keeps calling you and texting you and sending you pictures and stuff like that.

[Hannah]

Oh, oh, so this is the ex or. Who is this guy in Alabama?

[Sandra]

She was a firefighter that they had worked with at one point. Oh, she. She had worked here in town. She was all over. Tick tock. Gotta love social media. She was. So it was really easy to see who she was and where she was at and stuff like that. And the fire chief that he had worked with knew her because they had worked together as well. So we had actually talked about her a couple of times as well when we were sitting over there hanging out or having dinner.

[Hannah]

So it was somebody that your femme tuition knows.

[Sandra]

Right. I knew they talked. I knew everybody was friendly and stuff like that. But now I knew that he lied to me about where he was at and who he was with and what he was doing.

[Mike]

That must have felt so shitty that.

[Sandra]

So that is just when my heart broke.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Sandra]

Because, I mean, that was like the first huge betrayal for me. It was like a week after I put his name on my house that I am invested all of this money, I am invested all in him. So what did he say? He said that they were just friends and she was having a hard time and he wanted to cheer her up and he just needed a break from life.

[Mike]

So he went, why didn't he say that? If it's nothing, if it's honest, right.

[Hannah]

If it's. If it's nothing to hide, then you don't have to hide.

[Sandra]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Yep.

[Sandra]

Right. And like, if. If you want to go hang out with your friends, go hang out with your friends. You don't have to lie to me. I'm like, that doesn't.

[Mike]

Yeah. Like, I ain't your mama, but you could tell me the truth. And the fact that he didn't is like, red flag. Sorry. Done. Like, that's. You lied to me.

[Sandra]

Right. So it was just like, I'm so sorry. Not even I'm so sorry. He's like, I'm just. Just not used to being able to open up to somebody or have somebody so understanding or I wanted to tell you. It's just our relationship isn't like that.

[Hannah]

But so he kind of turns it into like a yes. We are like growing together and I'm still figuring it out.

[Sandra]

Right. He's like, I was just comforting a friend her. And I was. Relationship is not like that. I just needed a break and I'm so stressed out. And I'm like, well, and this is that, you know, we're already invested and in it, so let's give it a.

[Hannah]

Little bit longer and don't do it again.

[Sandra]

Mr. Right. To see what happens.

[Mike]

That's called cost fallacy. When you hear us talking about sunk cost fallacy, that means that I've been here for so long, I might as well keep going. You've already sunk so much of your.

[Hannah]

You literally did.

[Mike]

Might as well keep going.

[Sandra]

I did. And I was like, okay. Everybody gets a freebie. Right.

[Mike]

Okay. Benefit of the doubt.

[Sandra]

Right. Because I don't necessarily know anything. He's not admitting to sleeping with her or having an affair or anything like that. He's like, we're just friends. And I didn't.

[Mike]

So we're. Okay. Okay. That's fair. Yeah.

[Sandra]

Inappropriate in the text messages. I didn't see anything inappropriate in any of the things that they were doing or conversations that they would have or anything like that. And I. I just. At that time, I hadn't seen him do anything inappropriate with anybody. It was just. This was like the first time I taught him lying.

[Hannah]

Yeah. But he. He was able to talk it away.

[Sandra]

Right. Then a couple months later, he's on another trip.

[Mike]

Where's he going now?

[Sandra]

Where? He says again, Indiana. Sure. Well, that morning, that ex fiance gal text him at like 6 in the morning as we're getting up for me to take him to the airport. I'm like, that's suspicious. And then I'm getting messages from him that week about, he just wants to get home, he doesn't like it there. He's going to try and come home early and he just misses me and I'M so great and wonderful and blah.

[Mike]

Blah, blah, blah, blah.

[Hannah]

Maybe he got dumped by his side piece. Don't. Don't tell me, don't tell me yet.

[Sandra]

And he used to do this a lot. He would just send photos, like random photos of whatever he was doing. And he's like, you know, the flights are all messed up and I'm trying to get on a flight to get home because things were not going well for his business trip. Sends me a photo of like his legs in the lobby in the airport. Okay, well, I have been to the airport in Pensacola, Florida, so I know what it looks like. Oh, no.

[Mike]

Where was he? He wasn't there.

[Sandra]

That's where he was. He was not in Indiana. He was in Pensacola.

[Hannah]

Oh, he was in Penn School of.

[Mike]

You're like, oh, I know. Oh, busted. Did you, did you call him out right there or what'd you do if.

[Sandra]

You blow up the photo in the back on the wall behind the ticket counters, there is a photo that says Pensacola, like a street.

[Mike]

Oh my God, what a dumb.

[Sandra]

I'm like, idiot. Okay. I'm like, well, that's about, you know, a half an hour drive from where this gal lives in Alabama. But then the other gal messaged him in the morning. And then he also another gal that he had an affair with when he was married, lives in Florida.

[Hannah]

Oh, how did he. So he had.

[Sandra]

You knew about that, right?

[Hannah]

Way back when?

[Sandra]

Yeah. And again, this is all kind of like sprinkled into our relationship. I'm getting these pieces of information that he almost left his wife for this galaxy and she lives in Florida. They had gone to high school together, but then he didn't. But they had had a really long term affair.

[Hannah]

And when he shared that with you, were you what made it okay to you?

[Sandra]

Yeah, I don't think it's ever okay. And I mean, that's the thing is I think somebody who, who cheats on their partner, their person they're supposed to love forever and lies to that person and all the things you have to do to maintain that lie is probably one of the most dangerous people that they can like fake that for so long to everybody because you have to lie to your kids, you have to lie to your parents, you have to lie to your spouse, you have to lie to everybody. And I think that's hard to do.

[Hannah]

Yeah, it's like a full time job.

[Sandra]

Right.

[Hannah]

I was just thinking about. I couldn't live like that too. I'd be scared all the time someone was gonna find out.

[Mike]

Wow.

[Sandra]

It makes no sense to me to do that. I'm like, if you don't want to be with me, just don't be here. It's fine.

[Hannah]

So. But I feel like him maybe opening up about the affair, if he spoke about it in a way that was remorseful, you could wrap your head around the fact that he's changed.

[Mike]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sandra]

And that. And that's what I was thinking. I'm like, he was talking about it. He was talking about how devastating it was to watch her go through that, and he was sharing these deeply personal things with me. So it felt really intimate. It felt like we were connected. It felt like we were really building a lot of things. But when I look at it now, he was just. He was just seeing if I would put up with it.

[Hannah]

Yes, that's exactly what the last guest who talked about this said. It was almost like a testing.

[Sandra]

Right.

[Hannah]

And I feel, like, frustrating.

[Sandra]

It feels like the whole relationship, he was testing my limits and learning how to be a person. Like, he would practice it and if it went well, he would keep doing it. If it didn't go well, he would stop. It was so weird.

[Mike]

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[Sandra]

He sent me that picture of Pensacola, and I just. Again, it just broke my world. So I couldn't figure out what was going on. I didn't figure he would tell me the truth at this point. And I couldn't figure out which woman he might have been with in Florida. I'm like, it could be all of them. It could be none of them. It could be somebody new. I'm like, I don't know what's going on.

[Mike]

What a horrible feeling.

[Sandra]

So I ended up like the fiance. I started with her. Her husband was a local police officer. Oh. I called the police station and left a message to see if he would call me back. Oh, right. Which I don't recommend. I really don't, because he called me back, and I'm like, I think my boyfriend and your wife are having an affair.

[Mike]

Oh, no. What'd he say? What'd he say?

[Sandra]

He's like, let me call you back. So he. He called me back on his personal phone. He didn't want to talk to me on a work phone because I. I wanted to be clear about who I am, that I'm not just some crazed, random person. I'm like, this is who I am. Check me out. Yeah, this is this guy. This is her. I said, I. I need. I just need somebody to tell me the truth is where I'm at. And this is when I find out that he didn't know that they had dated at all because they were still married and had been married all along.

[Hannah]

Oh, no.

[Sandra]

This is when I find out their whole relationship had been an affair, which is why he got divorced. His wife is like, I'm done with this. Because they had started when they were both married.

[Mike]

Okay?

[Hannah]

So he. He. He told the pieces of his affair that he wanted to share with you, but not that.

[Mike]

Yeah, he sure did.

[Sandra]

Right? And Jacob, he was telling me that this gal had been divorced for a long time and that he knew him and that he had built a shed and they had all been friends. And he's like, no, no, we're still married. He's like, but I do know that guy, and he's slimy, and I would stay away from him, but he's like, he's been obsessed with my wife for years and won't leave us alone.

[Mike]

What? No way. He said that?

[Sandra]

Yeah. Because that's the story he was being told, Right?

[Hannah]

I was gonna say, it sounds like his wife is on these trips too.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Sandra]

Right.

[Mike]

So whoopsie doodle.

[Sandra]

I mean, that was really sad because he was upset and not having a good day. I'm like, well, I did not plan to have this conversation today be the.

[Hannah]

Bearer of bad news, but you're. Yeah, you're just the messenger at this point.

[Sandra]

So I'm talking to him. He starts talking to his wife, and she flips her shit, and she calls Jacob and is like, what the fuck is this crazy bitch doing? So now he is calling me and screaming at the top of his lungs that I had ruined his life and her life and da, da, da, da, da.

[Hannah]

Sorry to laugh, but excuse me. You did the thing, sir, Right?

[Sandra]

I'm like, I. I just apparently outed your affair is what I did. But I. I stopped. I stopped talking to this guy because I'm like, you know what? I. I don't. Again, nobody will admit to anything.

[Hannah]

You mean the police officer or the. You stopped talking to Jacob?

[Sandra]

I stopped talking to the police officer because I'm like, crap, this is a bigger deal than I thought it was. I'm like, hey, man, I need to figure out what to do because at this time.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Sandra]

I am on this guy's family cell phone plan. His name is on my house.

[Mike]

Oh, my God.

[Sandra]

He's got a hundred thousand dollars. And I. I'm like, I. I don't know what to do.

[Hannah]

Wait, you've paid? That's how much of the debt you helped him pay off?

[Sandra]

Yeah, I think so. At that time, I can imagine you're.

[Hannah]

Like, wait a second. This is not just me sending.

[Mike]

Wait a damn minute.

[Hannah]

Notifying this man. This is. What.

[Sandra]

How do I. I don't. I don't know how to fix this. I don't. I don't know how to undo any of it. So I was like, I. I don't. I can't do this. So I stopped talking to him. So then I'm just getting messages and messages and messages and phone calls and phone calls and phone calls and.

[Hannah]

Wait, so has he just been denying the affair? Like, what is he telling you about what you found out, other than yelling at you?

[Sandra]

He. He says I'm crazy, That I have destroyed people's lives.

[Mike]

Oh, here we go.

[Sandra]

And now his friends have a common enemy, and they're gonna destroy me.

[Mike]

What?

[Hannah]

Who we who? What friends?

[Mike]

The hell?

[Sandra]

That gal from Florida that he had an affair with apparently is friends with the fiance at some point.

[Mike]

Oh, Jesus. Okay, so they're buddy.

[Sandra]

Buddy. And. And they're mad at me for outing her affair.

[Hannah]

But. But. So he doesn't deny that he was seeing this woman while you were together? Or is he saying we're not together anymore? But yes, we used to have an affair and now told her husband about the old affair that is currently not happening.

[Sandra]

Yes. So he.

[Hannah]

Okay, okay, okay, okay. I'm caught up.

[Mike]

Are you joking though, right?

[Hannah]

And how do you feel when he.

[Sandra]

Says, right in all of this, I am the one person who is not having an affair.

[Mike]

I'm the only one doing the right thing here.

[Hannah]

We can just assume, right? So. So, okay. And how does that feel to hear that explanation? Are you like, I am crazy?

[Sandra]

I. You know, I'm like, maybe I am crazy. Maybe. Maybe I am jealous or insecure. He was so convincing that I was the problem, that I had done all these horrible things and all of these people hated me. He was so convincing. And I was just. Again, I was. I was just alone. I had nobody to bounce anything I off of. Nobody would talk to me or tell me what was going on. Like, his parents or his kids never told me what was going on. Some of the co workers never told me what was going on. Even. Even when I started asking, they wouldn't tell me anything.

[Mike]

They knew that you knew that they knew that they knew and they didn't want to tell you nothing.

[Hannah]

They're like, involved. Yeah.

[Mike]

They're like, huh?

[Sandra]

They were afraid of consequences from this guy because he was just so good at all the things that he did. It gets worse. It was. He was upset. How dare I ruin everybody's life? And I am so jealous and insecure where I am asking. I'm like, hey, can I have my phone? Can we split things off? Let's just make this animal and be done. You hate me. I've done all these things. It's stressful. So when I started asking to end things and I needed his permission to do that on the cell phone plan, I could not do it without him or I would had to shut my phone off completely. Financially as well, because he had taken a lot of money. And that's when he stopped making payments on paying me back. His name was on my house and he hadn't followed through with doing what he was supposed to do. So that was collateral. He had access to my house because he had the garage door opener at the time he had control over everything. By that point, that was two years in, and he had control over everything. And he wouldn't let me end the relationship. And we had a cruise that we had already planned, and we were supposed to be going on soon. So now we're in October. And he sends me a text. He's like, did you cancel the cruise yet? I'm like, well, no, I haven't done anything. Then he got an email from, I don't know, the travel agent or whatnot, and said, well, let's not write it off completely. And then he was like, well, I understand what you did or why you did what you did, and I forgive you. And he forwarded me the email so I could send all the documentation to go on this cruise in November. Like, a week after this huge, devastating event.

[Hannah]

Like, you both go together, right? Okay. And you're like, or.

[Sandra]

He's sending me the paperwork. So I make this phone call end of September, a week into October, he's like, well, let's take a cruise. And then November don't fix it the F up. November, we get on a plane, we head back to Florida, and we end.

[Hannah]

Up on the week.

[Sandra]

It gets so much worse.

[Mike]

Oh, no, boy.

[Hannah]

Everybody take a breath, Take a lap, get a snack.

[Sandra]

Do you need to go potty again? I.

[Mike]

No, we need to hear this freaking story, because I'm gonna lose it.

[Hannah]

You're like, hannah, you need another break.

[Sandra]

So I am desperate and panicked because I really did just feel so trapped. I couldn't see a way out of this without losing my money and my home and everything. Really. It is really the most, like, lonely and isolating and devastating and terrifying thing ever. And I became a really, completely different person than even I am today because I would just apologize and take responsibility for everything. Be like, yep, you're right. I screwed it all up. It's all my fault. Over and over and over again. You're right. I'm crazy. You're right. Thanks so much for. For giving me all those things, because there was absolutely nothing I could do, and I couldn't figure out, and I couldn't get any information on how to do anything any other way. And I'm like, okay, maybe I'm the problem again. This has just been a crazy couple of weeks.

[Mike]

Oh, I hate that.

[Sandra]

So we go on a cruise. We just go on a cruise. And, you know, and that was the one thing. Traveling to and from somewhere was always really fun with him. We traveled really well together. And that was also something that was really surreal. Anytime we flew or traveled, people wanted to talk to him or get his attention and, like, would come and, like, guy stand in front of me to talk to him. Like, I wasn't even there. It was so weird. And we would laugh about it. That's going on.

[Mike]

Crazy to me that people do that.

[Hannah]

Was he like a Jon Hamm type? Like, was he like Mr. Prince Charming looking or just super charismatic?

[Sandra]

Just, yes, super charming. And would chat with anybody and be funny or wear these fun clothes? Yeah. It was so bizarre. I have never seen anybody garner so much attention like that. That he did.

[Hannah]

Wow.

[Sandra]

So we. We go on this cruise and he's getting all these calls from work from, like his phone is blowing up the whole time. So the first day is pretty easy. Second day I go out and they do all these shows and events and stuff like that. So he's like, I have to work. So I'm like, okay, I'm gonna go do this thing and then we're gonna meet up here in an hour. I go do the thing and I meet up with him in the hour. And he is really agitated. I'm like, what is going on? And he. I don't remember if he was holding it or if he had said he had taken it, that he had taken some Ativan.

[Mike]

What's Ativan?

[Hannah]

I don't know what that one is either.

[Sandra]

It kind of slows everything down. It's a beta blocker.

[Hannah]

Okay.

[Sandra]

Lowers your blood pressure and lowers your heart rate and makes you all mellow.

[Mike]

Oh, it's a chiller outer. Okay.

[Sandra]

Yeah. So he's like. I mean, and that was a prescription that he had for a long time. So he's taken that. But that night was supposed to be one of those fancy dress up nights on cruises where you can go get your picture taken and stuff like that.

[Mike]

Crafton's dinner or whatever.

[Sandra]

Yeah. So we go back to the room and I get all dressed up and I bought this cute pink sparkly dress and these shoes and super high heels and I do all my makeup and my hair and I come out and he is still wearing T shirt and shorts and flip flops.

[Hannah]

Criminal.

[Mike]

Why?

[Sandra]

Right? I'm like, is this what you're wearing? He's like, I don't care. I don't want to dress up.

[Mike]

She said, is this what you're wearing? I don't want to dress up. Like, you knew about this.

[Sandra]

I'm like, then why did you let me get all dressed up? Yeah, like. Like you're. I mean, you know how cruise Rooms are. It's like the size of a closet.

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Sandra]

He watched you get what I'm doing.

[Mike]

Let me do all this right.

[Sandra]

So we. Me and my lovely dress and him and his flip flops are walking out to go have dinner. No, I just got mad. I'm like, what. What are you doing? I'm like, I thought this would be special and this would be nice, and we can get some pictures and have some good memories. And I'm just mad.

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Sandra]

And we're standing there by elevators, and you can see there's couples walking by. And it's. The elevators were clear. Like, you could see when you get in the elevator, you can watch it go down. So the elevator opens, and again, I'm still mad, and I'm telling him that I'm mad, and he grabbed me by the throat and threw me into the elevator.

[Mike]

I'm sorry, what?

[Sandra]

And all I can see is the woman's face with her husband walking by the elevator as he did that, as the elevator doors close. And I thought, I'm trapped. I'm trapped, and nobody will help me.

[Mike]

Are you guys. What. What do you say?

[Hannah]

Oh, Sandra, I don't even know.

[Mike]

I don't even. I'm speechless. I'm never speechless.

[Hannah]

There were a lot of moments where we were speechless, because it kind of like, it piles on, and it doesn't stop from here. So I do want to hear how you're all feeling in the meantime, because we'll. We'll get back to it next week, and. And we're gonna go into, like, the dogfish debrief more at the end of the whole story.

[Mike]

Yeah. Yeah. And, like, I find myself. I found myself often saying, like, what the hell? It's just a lot to wrap your head around. So I. Oh, man.

[Hannah]

Unbelievable. And also, this is, like, a fresh story. It kind of didn't end that long ago. So as you are in the comments of social media or Patreon or whatnot, like, you don't know the whole story yet. So ask questions and share your. Your. Your responses. Just, like, remember that Sandra is one of us. Like, she's in our community and can read those, too. So just. We always want to, like, protect our guests.

[Mike]

Exactly. I want to know what y' all are thinking so far. Like, where. Where are you at with. Are you. Are you in the. I just want to know if you felt the way we felt in. In the moment, like, what was going through your head. So I'd love to hear what you have to say. So again, please share on Social media keep the conversation going. Also, you can share your story. Please email us directly at Investigate the dating detectives podcast.com. send it over and put something in the subject that'll let us know kind of what your story's about. And we want to be an ear and a platform for you. So please. Thank you for everybody who's so brave and courageous and sharing your stories.

[Hannah]

Cinnamon, even if it's not a long story or a specific romantic dogfish story, we still want to talk about it on Patreon.

[Sandra]

So join Patreon.

[Mike]

Crazy.

[Hannah]

Yeah, no ads. $9 a month. Some ads, but still a lot of fun. $5 a month.

[Mike]

It's great.

[Hannah]

Also. So, yeah, Patreon's a great place to, like, find community. Also, I know we say it at the beginning of every episode, but I just want to reiterate, like, the National Domestic Violence Hotline is an amazing resource. Like, just, like, hearing stories like this brings so much stuff up. And I just want to remind people that they are not alone and they should seek help, even if their femme tuition just gives the tiniest little tingle. Even a little tingle is enough to be like, you know what?

[Mike]

It's enough.

[Hannah]

I'm worth it.

[Mike]

Yep.

[Hannah]

To report to. To be loud, even to feel overdramatic, like, just. Who cares? Like, yeah, I'd rather.

[Mike]

You. I'd rather say something and it be too much than not saying it. You know what I mean?

[Hannah]

So, yeah, that's kind of our whole MO. We're consistently, quote, unquote, too much. So be like us.

[Mike]

I'm too much. Go find less. So there's. There's. Speaking of the National Domestic Violence Hotline, which, by the way, it's available 24. 7, 365. It's 800-799-safe 7233. You can also text them. You can text the word start to 8, 8, 788. And we'll put that in the show notes. But I wanted to bring up something. I went to Ulta the other day because, of course I did. Oh, I saw this. I love this. I went into the bathroom because I had to pee. Go. And I look in the mirror, and there's a Spanish and an English version of a sticker on the mirror that says, love shouldn't hurt if you feel alone or whatever. And they had a number for it. It was a Tampa Bay. The Tampa Bay Spring. And it was a for, like, domestic violence. And so they had a local number for it, which I was like, good for you, Ulta. That was really Amazing. I thought, that's amazing.

[Hannah]

I'm also like, you just inspired me. And first, English, Spanish. The national domestic violence hotline also offers Spanish and other interpretation services. And I know some of you listen from out of the US There are non US Numbers. And if you're. I mean, like, there's definitely other ones. I don't. I. I can't list them all. You know that. But what was I going to say? You just gave me an idea. I'm like, I want to make stickers from the dating detectives that are like. That we could put in the bathroom. I mean, not to steal from the Tampa hotline, but, like, the more places that have stuff like that, the better. I want to, like, print out local numbers and just stick them in bathrooms all across the world.

[Mike]

That could be, like, a goal. Like, we could set that. That would be so cool. Oh, yeah.

[Hannah]

Molly just hopped in. If you can't hear her, she's like, we could send them to listeners who live in different places, and they could put them up. I'm obsessed with this. We could make some that have national line, and then we can make some that have a blank, and you can, like, look up your local number and put it on the sticker.

[Mike]

I kind of like that idea. It just gives. It just gives people a little bit of hope and a little bit of just, like, knowledge that they're not alone.

[Hannah]

If one person sees it. Molly needs to get a microphone because she just said something else that was great. She was like, sometimes people just say they. They don't know why they didn't leave. They just, like, needed validation or a sign. And sometimes the sign is from the.

[Mike]

US this is your sign.

[Hannah]

Sometimes the sign is the dating detectives. And I want to make stickers. I'm. I feel like after this, I'm gonna.

[Mike]

We should do that. We're gonna do it. Let's do it. Totally.

[Hannah]

Absolutely. Oh, my gosh. I mean, I. I made, like, QR codes for my self defense workshop that literally I put them. I went to a concert and I, like, put them around, and it said, like, don't get killed in the parking lot. And then a QR code. And that was it. And I was like, is this ridiculous? But people showed up, and I feel like we could do more and more of that type of thing. Just get the word out.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

If you guys have other ideas or work with any organizations that you love, you know, the email hit, hit us up. And we love you. I love that. I hate that this happened to her, but it is the kind of thing that, like, she needs to focus on heal. We get to focus on, like, okay, what the can we do now?

[Sandra]

What can we do?

[Mike]

We're gonna empower ourselves to empower you, to empower others, and we're just gonna.

[Hannah]

Keep it going, period.

[Mike]

I like it.

[Hannah]

That's a good drag name. M Power.

[Mike]

Oh, I like that. That's so funny.

[Hannah]

Emily Power. M Power.

[Mike]

I don't know.

[Hannah]

Maybe I've seen. I've heard better, but.

[Mike]

No, but that's good. You're. You're quick. I like it.

[Hannah]

Thanks.

[Mike]

On Drag Race next season, and as per usual, you guys trust your intuition.

[Hannah]

Love you.

[Mike]

Okay, we'll let you back.

[Sandra]

Sam.