The Trap: Part 2

Summary

The Dating Detectives: "The Trap: Part 2" – Detailed Summary

Release Date: May 26, 2025

Introduction

In the second part of "The Trap," Sandra, a therapist and EMT, shares her harrowing experience of falling into a manipulative and abusive relationship. Hosted by professional Private Investigator Mackenzie Fultz and Comedian Hanna Anderson, this episode delves deep into the intricate web of lies, financial abuse, and emotional manipulation that Sandra endured. The hosts provide insightful commentary, highlighting red flags and offering support to listeners who may find themselves in similar situations.

Sandra's Story Unfolds

Initial Trust and Rapid Escalation

Sandra met Jacob at a crisis center, where she believed she found a trustworthy and compassionate partner. Their friendship quickly blossomed into a romantic relationship over two years, during which Jacob continually gained her trust by responsibly repaying loans she provided (02:00).

Emergence of Red Flags

As their relationship progressed, red flags began to surface. Jacob sought a loan to have his name added to their house for tax purposes (02:23). Concurrently, Sandra discovered Jacob maintaining relationships with multiple women, including an ex-fiancée and a coworker from Alabama and Florida (02:33). A pivotal moment occurred when Sandra caught Jacob lying about a business trip to Indiana, evidenced by an easily identifiable airport sign in a photo he sent her ([03:44]).

Escalation to Abuse

Gaslighting and Physical Violence

Confronting Jacob about his deceit led to gaslighting, where Jacob deflected blame onto Sandra, making her question her own perceptions (04:10). Their relationship deteriorated rapidly, culminating in physical abuse during a cruise. Sandra describes being violently thrown into an elevator, leaving her feeling trapped and helpless ([11:30]).

Continued Manipulation and Control

Post-cruise, Jacob's abusive behavior intensified. He became financially exploitative, controlling Sandra's finances, and manipulating her emotionally and physically (13:03). Sandra recounts instances where Jacob exhibited violent behavior in public settings, manipulating those around him and increasing her isolation (15:20).

Discovery and Attempted Escape

Uncovering Financial and Personal Deceptions

Sandra's realization of Jacob's manipulative nature deepened as she discovered unauthorized activities such as stolen deeds to her house and illicit drug possession ([34:17]). Her attempts to seek legal help were thwarted by Jacob's influence and her own financial constraints, making her feel utterly trapped (17:21).

Attempts to Seek Legal and Social Support

Desperate to break free, Sandra reached out to law enforcement and legal aid, only to encounter systemic barriers and unresponsive support systems (35:27). Her journey highlights the complex interplay between personal agency and institutional limitations in cases of domestic abuse and financial manipulation ([43:58]).

Legal Struggles and Systemic Failures

Challenges in Legal Proceedings

Sandra's pursuit of justice was marred by ineffective legal representation and uncooperative law enforcement. Her attorney's incompetence and the inadequate response from authorities underscored the systemic failures that victims often face (57:35). Despite mounting evidence of fraud and abuse, Sandra struggled to have her case taken seriously, leaving her feeling powerless ([79:49]).

Impact of Social Systems

The episode sheds light on the inadequacies of support systems for victims of complex abuse cases. Sandra's experiences reveal how victims can be further traumatized by the very institutions meant to protect them, exacerbating their sense of isolation and helplessness (89:54).

Key Discussions and Insights

The Bystander Effect and Helplessness

Hanna and Mackenzie discuss the bystander effect, emphasizing how societal pressures and fear of repercussions prevent individuals from intervening in abusive situations ([07:45]). They also explore the concept of learned helplessness, where continuous manipulation erodes a victim's sense of control and self-efficacy ([100:58]).

Financial Abuse as a Tool of Control

Financial manipulation is highlighted as a critical tool used by abusers to maintain power over their victims. Sandra's inability to reclaim her finances or remove her name from property deeds exemplifies how financial dependence traps individuals in abusive relationships ([95:07]).

Systemic Barriers to Justice

The hosts critique the systemic barriers that prevent victims from accessing justice and support. The complexity of legal processes, high costs of legal representation, and institutional negligence are identified as significant hurdles for victims seeking to escape abusive situations ([83:15]).

Conclusions and Takeaways

Empowerment Through Awareness

"The Trap: Part 2" underscores the importance of recognizing subtle signs of manipulation and abuse in relationships. By sharing Sandra's story, the hosts aim to educate listeners on identifying red flags and understanding the multifaceted nature of abusive dynamics.

Call for Systemic Change

The episode calls for comprehensive reforms in support systems, emphasizing the need for accessible legal aid, responsive law enforcement, and effective victim support services. Sandra's experience highlights the urgent need for institutions to better serve and protect victims of complex abuse.

Community and Support Networks

Hanna and Mackenzie advocate for the creation of strong community support networks. They encourage listeners to reach out for help, share their stories, and support one another in overcoming abusive relationships.

Notable Quotes

• Hannah [04:10]: "You're kind of alone. It sounds like when they go on this cruise that they had already had planned, he's confronted her, but in the way that these dogfish are good at doing, he's able to talk his way into being like, you're kind of the problem."
• Sandra [11:30]: "So the elevator opens and again, I'm still mad and I'm telling him that I'm mad and he grabbed me by the throat and threw me into the elevator. What?"
• Mackenzie [35:27]: "I felt so trapped and stuck. I couldn't keep him out of my home because his name was on it."
• Sandra [74:08]: "I have an incredibly strong case for fraud. Just do your fucking job."
• Hannah [86:22]: "How are you?"

Final Thoughts

This episode of "The Dating Detectives" provides a comprehensive and emotionally charged exploration of the complexities surrounding abusive and manipulative relationships. Through Sandra's poignant narrative, listeners gain a deeper understanding of the psychological and systemic challenges faced by victims. The hosts' empathetic approach and insightful discussions offer valuable lessons on awareness, support, and the imperative need for systemic reform to better protect and empower individuals in abusive scenarios.

Transcript

[Hannah]

The following program contains names, places, and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following program is provided for entertainment purposes only, and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances. If you or a loved one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic violence hotline at 1-800-799-7-7-7233 for support.

[Mackenzie]

Happy dating, detectives.

[Sandra]

Monday.

[Hannah]

I'm back. Hello. How are you? Beautiful.

[Mackenzie]

Good. How are you? You look so beautiful.

[Hannah]

You have your mermaid hair, which I'm obsessed with.

[Mackenzie]

I did the crimping again. The. The. The waiver. I really love that thing. Thank you so much.

[Hannah]

You rock it.

[Mackenzie]

I am. I know that you guys are so excited to get into this part two of this. Part deal of this. Oh, my God. Okay, so just a recap real quick. Like, we might as well just get into it. Boy meets girl. Therapist and EMT, right?

[Hannah]

Yeah. @ a crisis center.

[Mackenzie]

At a crisis center, which. I'm sorry, but if I met someone there, I think that I would immediately be like, oh, this is probably someone that has good.

[Hannah]

Probably a good person.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah. So. But anyways, they get serious fast.

[Hannah]

Well, they're friends first, Right. For a year.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

And then so by the time they get together, it's like, oh, we know each other.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah. So it's comfortable. Right. And this is someone she thinks that she can trust. They get to know the family. Right. So we're getting the family involved. And, you know, that's when you feel like you're kind of in. Like, you're like, oh, if I know the family, that's kind of comfortable.

[Hannah]

Yeah. I'm. It's serious. So they're together, like friends for a year, romantic for a year, all is well.

[Mackenzie]

And then he wants a loan.

[Hannah]

Yeah. But it's two years in, she trusts him, and it's. You know, it happens.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah. And. And I. That makes sense. Like, two years is a good. That's a good amount of time to build trust with someone. Right. But the first loan she gives him, he starts to pay it off. So he's doing pretty good. And now he's building that trust more. He's like, hey, you gave me a loan. He's paying it off. And she's like, oh, great. He's good for it. Right. So that's setting the tone for, you know, oh, maybe she'll give him more money later. But then two and A half years in, he wants his name on the house. And she says, yeah, all right. Like, I trust him.

[Hannah]

And it's like taxes, right? For tax purposes.

[Mackenzie]

Yes. And so she trusts him. Like, she's like, yeah, I guess he's good for it. Right? And then the other women come into play. Ex fiance.

[Hannah]

Well, yeah.

[Mackenzie]

Alabama. Florida.

[Hannah]

I got my. I think this is an episode where a pen and paper doesn't hurt. So, like, at this point, I have my notes that hints of cheating come up. So, yeah, there's an Alabama woman who's an old coworker.

[Mackenzie]

Yes.

[Hannah]

She knows about him. There's the ex fiance of this man, and he still talks to her. So the ex fiance is the woman he was dating right before Sandra. And this is the woman who lived in the house with him that she helped move him out of.

[Mackenzie]

Yes.

[Hannah]

This is a woman that he's been tied to and has still talks to sometimes as needed. It makes sense. If you had lived with someone, it makes sense that you might have to talk to them.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, I agree with that. I'll give him that. Yeah, of course.

[Hannah]

And then now we've got a woman in Florida.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, boy.

[Hannah]

Yeah. So that's where it gets. Starts to get real bad because she. She catches him. He says he's on a business trip in Indiana, and then he sends her a picture, and she's like, I know the Pensacola airport when I see it. In fact, if I zoom in, there is a sign that says, it says Pensacola.

[Mackenzie]

What a dumb.

[Hannah]

Yeah. Idiot. So that's when she's like, what's going on? But, yeah, those are the three women that we talked about. But there are more to come. So pen.

[Mackenzie]

So get your pen out. Get your pencils for shark. Get your crayons and your. And your coloring books and start taking notes.

[Sandra]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

So she catches him in this Florida lie. So. Oh, that's when she calls the husband of the ex fiance, trying to see if.

[Mackenzie]

Yes. And then it gets with her or what.

[Hannah]

Yeah. So at that point, the husband of the ex fiance gets upset. So then her. Sandra's brain is like, why would you call him? You spilled the beads. You're crazy. Like, not entirely denying that there might be something going on with that woman still, but turning it and gaslighting into like, you just ruined her marriage by planting that seed. And so she's feeling confused. It sounds like when they go on this cruise that they had already had planned, like she's confronted him, but in the way that these dogfish are good at doing, he's Able to talk his way into being like, you're kind of the problem.

[Mackenzie]

Actually, they kind of gaslight you and make you think this is your problem. You're the issue. Like, you know. But then they go on a cruise together.

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Mackenzie]

And that's when it gets physically abusive. And in this episode, you'll start to see how things unfold, and there's going to be more women. So, like I said, keep your crayons.

[Sandra]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

And I think the timeline recap is good because it's easy to think, oh, they were just together. Like, they just started dating and she went on a cruise. Like, why wouldn't she leave? I know that's, like, the question we don't want to be asking a survivor of this, but it's like, three years in trust has been built. And that's also just not the point. Like, the point is, why is somebody choking someone in an elevator? But just keep in mind the extent of their relationship and the trust that he tried to build and the confusion. Like, also, she's a crisis counselor. Like, she's got stress going on all the time. I'm amazed by her. So it just is important to remember what is the headspace at the time.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah. And there's so much going on that sometimes it takes away, like, your. Your focus, and you can't. You just. Sometimes you can't see the forest through the trees when the trees are falling all around you at once.

[Hannah]

I was just thinking that. You read my mind. I was like, what was that great quote that we got a long time ago? It so good.

[Mackenzie]

So great. Yeah.

[Hannah]

But this is a really part tough part, too. We mentioned it at the beginning, but there's physical abuse, emotional, sexual, and financial abuse. Girl Trigger warning. It's going to evolve, and we're here for you. We say it at the beginning of every episode, but we love the National Domestic Violence Hotline, and there are so many resources. You're never alone.

[Mackenzie]

And again, when I was in Ulta in the bathroom, and they had that. The. They had the Good for Ulta, they had the sticker on the mirror. So when you wash your hands, you see the sticker, and it says, love shouldn't hurt. If you need help, call this. And it was a local Tampa number for a local domestic, so I think that's really cool, too.

[Hannah]

So we're going to talk more about it in the debrief because mackenzie, I haven't shown you, but I've been designing some stickers.

[Mackenzie]

I'm so excited.

[Hannah]

And a lot of you reached out and Were like, I would love that. You guys should make more. So I did. I went on for you, Rabbit Hole and started making stickers. So we'll figure out how to do that. Because I like that idea a lot. I love that. And I love Ulta. Another reason to go to Ulta. Before we get into it, I want to share an email we got over this week that was so powerful and kind of brought me to tears because.

[Mackenzie]

Goosebumps.

[Hannah]

So we won't. We'll keep it anonymous for sure. And we don't have verification on whether or not it is the story. But we left off part one about the story on the cruise where she was assaulted in the elevator and she sees a woman and makes eye contact with a woman when that is happening and the doors close on the elevator. But the woman and her connect. And that was a moment for Sandra to think, nobody's really here to help me. Like I'm alone.

[Mackenzie]

How alone she must have felt. Yeah.

[Hannah]

And the more that happens, the more you kind of reinforce that it's not even worth trying to ask for help because you are repeatedly reminded that that's not an option for you. But this email was so special because it came from a listener who said, I think I was the woman on the cruise that saw it. We don't know if that's true, but that's not. I mean, the fact that even it's happened so much that you could hear that story and be like, I've witnessed something like this. And she explained what happened and wrote, I'm going to read a little bit. Can you just tell her I'm sorry I didn't do more? I thought about her and worried for the rest of the trip and looked for them to see if she was okay, but I never saw them again. There were cameras. If she needs to look for footage, I'm not sure they'll still have it, though. And then a little further down, if it wasn't her and I witnessed the same situation with someone else, let her know that the woman on the other side of the elevator probably feels the same way I do and basically said I wanted to do more. I think it's just so. It's such a good reminder of the bystander effect, which happens to all of us. It's very hard to do something and you don't know what to do.

[Mackenzie]

And you don't even know exactly what you're witnessing. All you know is what you're seeing. You don't know the context.

[Hannah]

Yeah, she said, I legit didn't know what to do. I should have asked her if she needed help or done something else. I don't know if it would have made a difference. And we debated that it could make things worse, which is true, it sometimes can. So I just loved that it at least prompted someone to think about what can I do next time? And also to share the perspective of the person that does care. So if you're in that situation and you don't get the help, it doesn't mean that people aren't there for you, but it's also a reminder for all of us to help.

[Mackenzie]

I'm just so grateful that she sent that in. If it's not the same woman and it's a different woman, then like you said, Hannah, that means that it's happening more often in a very similar situation. And sharing your story really brings awareness to it. So keep sharing your story. Please feel free to email us your if you want a platform or an ear and we'd love to be that for you. So so I'm so proud of our guests.

[Hannah]

We are all, both of them at various points in our lives and that's the thing to be reminded of. And yeah, email us. Patreon is a great place to connect and get advice. I also can I quickly shout out I had another self defense workshop and met a lot of you guys. It was really special but we all were talking about like how do we confront people that make us uncomfortable or how do we confront when somebody else is being made uncomfortable in a way that doesn't escal the situation in a way that doesn't make us feel like we're putting ourselves in more danger while also holding our boundaries. And we were talking about like I statements where we can say instead of being like go away, we can be like I'm not going to engage in this anymore. And that was like a click for me because I get so scared of like not being nice, which sucks. Like who cares? Be a bitch.

[Mackenzie]

Your instinct comes before your manners. Always. Always.

[Hannah]

And yet as a girl that has trouble with that, I'm like, I need to practice being authoritative and having my boundary and knowing I want to practice the line of what I say. If I see Sandra getting attacked, I want to know ahead of time my game plan, like think about that in a way and just shout out to.

[Mackenzie]

It'S something to consider that came to.

[Hannah]

Help process that with me in LA and I'll do more but hopefully we can do it all over the world.

[Mackenzie]

Thank you for doing that Hannah. That's so amazing. I love that so much.

[Hannah]

Not thank you. Don't thank me. Thank the people that show up because donated in the money too.

[Mackenzie]

So I love it.

[Sandra]

Let's go.

[Hannah]

Self defense.

[Mackenzie]

All right, well, let's hear the rest of Sandra's story. You ready?

[Hannah]

I'm so ready.

[Mackenzie]

Let's get into it.

[Sandra]

So the elevator opens and again, I'm still mad and I'm telling him that I'm mad and he grabbed me by the throat and threw me into the elevator. What?

[Mackenzie]

I'm sorry.

[Hannah]

What?

[Mackenzie]

What?

[Sandra]

All I can see is the woman's face with her husband walking by the elevator as he did that, as the elevator doors close. And I thought, I'm trapped. I'm trapped and nobody will help me.

[Mackenzie]

Oh my God, I am so sorry that. Oh, that's awful.

[Hannah]

That's awful.

[Sandra]

I've never experienced anything like that before.

[Hannah]

Oh, God.

[Sandra]

And the rest of the cruise, he said he was sick. So other than like meals or something like that, we didn't really talk or do anything.

[Hannah]

Did anything happen after the incident? Did the woman say anything? Did he get an elevator with you? Like, were you okay?

[Sandra]

We went and had dinner. We just went and had dinner. I didn't know what to do. He had my passport because he would take it when we traveled. And he did that the whole time. He would take my passport when we traveled. I didn't have any cell phone service on the boat, so I couldn't call or talk to anybody or anything like that.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, you're just stuck with this fella?

[Sandra]

Yeah. He had the plane tickets home.

[Mackenzie]

You can't do anything and you gave him all your money.

[Sandra]

I felt so trapped and stuck. I am 5ft tall. I was like 120 pounds.

[Mackenzie]

Little bitty.

[Sandra]

He is 510 and like 250.

[Mackenzie]

Dang. More than double your size.

[Sandra]

Yeah. And after the cruise, the abuse continued. And if we fought or I mentioned leaving, he would get really intense. Like a lot of messages. Or he's like, fine, I'll just drive off the edge of the road on the way way to work and stuff like that.

[Hannah]

No, but there's like a lot of emotional abuse and manipulation and then physical abuse too. He knows how to make it so that everybody is always appeasing him.

[Sandra]

Right. Because it's scary to hear those things.

[Hannah]

Oh my gosh. Okay. I'll do whatever you need me to do in order to make you feel better.

[Sandra]

Right? Just stop. It's easier just to kind of be quiet and go along with it because you don't know what's Going to happen. And then with all the physical stuff that he had done with me, I did not know how to respond to it. I didn't know it really was abuse, and I didn't know it was reportable. I mean, he would put his whole body and lay on me and, like, pin me to the bed to where I couldn't move or I couldn't breathe.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, my God. A lot of people say that, like, they think you can't report it, and that's terrible that. That we feel that way.

[Sandra]

Right. I didn't know what that was, but he would just show up at the house in, like, the middle of the night, drunk or saying that he was drunk and do weird things. And I'm like, hey, let's talk about last night. He's like, I don't remember. I was drunk. So it just didn't seem worth it to keep talking about it because he wouldn't talk to me. He wouldn't admit he was doing anything wrong. He wouldn't acknowledge. He doesn't care if I say, no, don't do that. He didn't care if I said no. I can't afford that. He didn't care about any of it, so he just kept doing it. So I just stopped saying no.

[Hannah]

Yeah, you kind of numb yourself.

[Sandra]

And it was really covert things. Like when we were at the fire station, he would throw stuff at me and be like, I'm just kidding. And everybody was there and kind of watching, which was also humiliating.

[Mackenzie]

Like, we saw you, idiot.

[Hannah]

Yeah, but the fact that they didn't do anything reiterates to you that you.

[Mackenzie]

Have nowhere to go and you're alone. Yep.

[Sandra]

Right. And, I mean, I know now that they were also just afraid of him and consequences from him. So with the abuse and the money and everything, at that time, I was just trying to survive. Things got a little blurry until a couple months later when I find out that. That somebody at that point, had filed a complaint on my counselor license.

[Hannah]

Oh, we've heard this before, right?

[Sandra]

Was it him?

[Mackenzie]

It was him or the girl?

[Sandra]

It was the girl. She said that I was stalking and harassing her, that Jacob was my client and I was having an inappropriate relationship with him and gained information from our therapy sessions to stalk and harass her and commit identity theft. Like, I was trying to get an apartment and a passport in her name. And, well, he was right when he.

[Hannah]

Said, now you have enemies.

[Sandra]

Absolutely. Absolutely.

[Hannah]

Goodness.

[Sandra]

So now the licensure board is calling me saying, are you sleeping with clients? And I'm like, well, no, he'd never been your client. Right, right. Because she listed him specifically, so can't.

[Hannah]

They, like, check those records?

[Sandra]

Right, but so I have to do that. I have to provide all this evidence. I have to get letters from all of my supervisors saying how I knew this guy or that he had never been a client. I have to hire an attorney to make sure I do everything correctly. So now I'm terrified. Now I have to make sure I have this guy on my good side. So he will write a statement saying he's never been a client.

[Hannah]

Oh, no.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, my God.

[Sandra]

Right. If he says anything against me, this. This can take years.

[Hannah]

Yeah. Because then it's his word against yours and.

[Sandra]

Right. Both of their words against mine if they're working together. But that is also when things changed. Like, his spending habits went through the roof, and it just. I look at it now, that's when things definitely changed. And he was spending or asking money or needing money constantly. But also, in the way he treated me, it was almost like I was invisible unless he needed or wanted something. So at that point, I wanted to leave, but I just felt so stuck and, like I had no one to turn to. So I did go and find my own counselor to talk to.

[Mackenzie]

Good.

[Sandra]

And sit with, because I just. I needed to talk to somebody about something.

[Mackenzie]

Of course.

[Sandra]

And again, I was so confused, and I didn't know what to do. And, I mean, a lot of what I was concerned about, because the first time I did speak up, all that stuff happened. And now there's this complaint on my license. What happens if I start talking about what's going on? Or professionally, what happens? Like, we worked at a crisis center. What happens if I walk into the domestic violence shelter or the police department or ask any of those questions? Because, again, this woman's husband was a police officer as well.

[Hannah]

Trapped.

[Sandra]

So I didn't know where to go or who to talk to or what to do. And then anybody I did talk to was just making, like, arbitrary statements, like, just leave the state or pack up and leave everything. Which are you paying? But, like, that's the thing.

[Hannah]

Yeah. People can't just leave and change their whole life. And there are consequences for that, too.

[Sandra]

Right.

[Mackenzie]

Nor should you have to.

[Hannah]

True. He should leave.

[Sandra]

So then in July 2022, again, the fire chief broke his leg on a call. And in these rural towns, you don't drive to a hospital. So Life Flight shows up, and they airlift him to a hospital because it's so far away, it would take, like, an hour or two. To drive, so they just fly him out. So then in the middle of the night, we're woken up with so many phone calls that he's broken his leg, and it's a big deal, and Jacob's got to get up there immediately to take over and do all these things. So the next night, he packs up everything and goes up there. So then from August until April, he lived up there most of the time. So we didn't see each other a lot. So when I would see him, it would be few and far between. And it was like, you know, we don't see each other very often. Let's just kind of have a nice time. And we're still talking about this future and planning this life and all of these things. And then this new gal starts at the fire station that he gets really invested in, and they are talking all of the time, and he is telling me what a hard time that she's having and that he is just kind of helping her out because that's his job now, because he's taken over as fire chief, because the other guy's been in the hospital and on medical leave.

[Hannah]

He's just doing his job, texting her at all hours.

[Sandra]

And then all of this stuff is coming out on Facebook about strange things going on. Strange. So social media, they had a page dedicated to the town, a couple of different ones, and there were conversations about drunk firefighters, money missing property, missing wild drunken parties at the house that was owned by the city where he was living. And then suddenly, the fire chief was going to be coming back to work, and Jacob, out of nowhere, gets fired.

[Mackenzie]

The fire. He did, or the fire chief did? He did. He got fired.

[Sandra]

The fire chief fired him.

[Mackenzie]

Why?

[Hannah]

Well, does he tell you? Like, how do you find out he gets fired? And what. What do you do?

[Sandra]

Yeah, he told me he got fired. He texted me that day, and I was, like, panicked. I'm like, oh, my God. He told me that he had a meeting with the mayor and the fire chief and was told that his services were no longer needed. And prior to that, we had some. He suspected that he was going to get fired. We had had conversations that fire chief was jealous and insecure and didn't like what a good job he did while he was away, that Jacob was just built a relationship with the town, and the fire chief was jealous that people liked him better, all of those things. And he, again, he had been feeding me these stories or these versions of the truth the whole time. So when things happened, it wasn't a surprise because he had just planted those seeds over and over and over again. And I drank the Kool Aid. I thought everybody was crazy. So I believed everything he said, that everybody was out to get him. So a week later, we had had a joint training set up about an hour or two away from there. It was a training conference for first responders, so we both decided to go. So I flew up into this tiny little town for this joint training with him right after he'd gotten fired. So he was a little agitated, notably. So he is on the phone, and he is pacing around, and he is going in and out of the room, and he is doing all these things. And I am a little suspicious about just things and just kind of questioning some stuff. Like, I know I'm not getting the full story on anything. I just don't know what it is.

[Hannah]

Yeah. And it's scary to confront that.

[Sandra]

Right. I pull up his Venmo and see. I mean, again, he couldn't do anything for himself. So I set up all of his passwords, I set up all of his accounts. I set up all of his stuff, like his health insurance stuff. And I was doing. I'm a great assistant, by the way.

[Hannah]

You mean mother. You were his mother.

[Sandra]

Right. I pull up his Venmo, and I see this gal that I have never heard of or never met is Venmoing him money that the day we're sitting in this hotel room, she is Venmoing him money for their trip to Vegas, as are a couple of other gals.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, boy.

[Hannah]

He's having an orgy in Vegas.

[Sandra]

Right. And then I had a camera above my front door that I don't ever check. So now I pulled this up, and I'm going through the footage, just trying to get any kind of hint as to what might be going on. He had. He was on the phone when he was walking in and out of the house when he's unloading from one of his trips.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, no.

[Sandra]

And he has got this gal on speakerphone, and he is talking to her about their trip to Vegas. And he starts naming all of these people that he is going to Vegas with. One of them is one of the new firefighters at the station. The other one is the woman that we went to Vegas with no years prior. So he is planning a trip with these four women to go to Vegas. And I am sitting in that hotel room realizing all of this and realizing again, the hotel room is in his name. He's got my plane ticket. I can't get back to the airport because he canceled the rental car. So I'm just kind of trapped there with him. And he is in the middle of a temper tantrum because he got fired. And then we go to this training. Is it Thursday, Friday, Saturday? We go to this training and we sit down in this training, and I sit next to him, you know, as you do, and he wouldn't talk to me the whole time. He wouldn't acknowledge that he knew me to anybody else in that room. I'm like, what? What is going on? And there were several people there that were married or dating, and they acknowledged, this is my partner or this is my wife, and we work together and it's great. And all of those things. And he wouldn't admit that he knew me, but then he told them that he lived in a different town than me, which is the first time I'd ever heard him do that.

[Hannah]

Why?

[Sandra]

I'm like, what? I'm like, who lives there? Like, what is going on?

[Mackenzie]

What are you doing?

[Hannah]

You're probably, like, looking at him from across the room, like, right, right.

[Sandra]

No, I'm sitting right next to him while he's doing this.

[Mackenzie]

You guys, the weather is heating up. And by is heating up, I mean it's Florida. So the weather is hot. And your nighttime bedroom temperature has a huge impact on your sleep quality. So if you wake up too hot or too cold, I'm always too cold. My husband's always too hot. I highly recommend you check out Miracle Maid's bed sheets. They're inspired by NASA and it uses silver infused fabrics that are temperature regulating so you can sleep at the perfect temp all night long. And I would like to add that traditional bed sheets can harbor more bacteria than a toilet seat. All that bacteria can lead to the acne and the allergies and stuffy noses. It's just gross. Miracle Maid offers a whole line of self cleaning antibacterial bedding, like sheets, pillowcases, comforters, and they actually Prevent up to 99.7% of bacteria growth. Also, I would like to add that my husband and I can sleep in the same bed under the same sheets, and it is temperature regulating for both of us. I'm cold, he's hot, and it works for both of us. I love it. Upgrade your sleep as the weather heats up. Go to try Miracle.com TDD to try Miracle made sheets today. And whether you're buying them for yourself or as a gift for a loved one, if you order today, you can save over 40%. And if you use our promo TDD at checkout, you'll get a free free 3 piece towel set and save an extra 20%. Miracle so confident in their product. It's backed with a 30 day money back guarantee so if you aren't 100 satisfied, you'll get a full refund. Upgrade your sleep with Miracle made. Go to try miracle.com TDD and use the code TDD to claim your free three piece towel set and save over 40% off. Again, that's try miracle.com TDD to treat yourself. Thank you Miracle for sponsoring this episode.

[Hannah]

You know I'm obsessed with romance books and sometimes after these episodes I need a palate cleanser and just get lost in the world of a slow burn of stolen glances. And that's exactly what Dipsea gives you. I love Dipsea and we've gotten to talk about Dipsea and partner with them for a while. And it's special because I actually use it and have used it long before dating Detectives even began. Dipsea is this female founded app for spicy audiobooks and more and it's created by women for the female gaze. It has something for everybody. I'm telling you, any kind of trope, any kind of relationship, any amount of people you want involved, it's got it. Over a thousand spicy audiobooks crafted by a team of professional writers, top tier narrators. And I wouldn't say that if I didn't mean it because I have listened to some some audiobooks not on Dipsea that I'm like, I don't like this narrator. They're trying to be sexy and they're just not. Everybody on Dipsey is sexy and they've got a lot of accents. It's just great. So if you're looking for a sailor, a cowboy, Pride and Prejudice vibes, you want fantasy, you want a vampire, you want a the what's it called in Court of Thorns and Roses? The Fae, the fairies. They're in there. You'll find it. All the characters are on Dipsy. It's easy to explore, you can search your favorite genre and they also release new chapters and stories every week so you always have something new to enjoy. You don't get bored. I also love their wellness options. They have guided breath work, they have some educational stuff about your sexual relationship with your partner or yourself, which is part of health and wellness, in my opinion. So right now you can get a 30 day free trial plus 25% off your annual subscription when you go to dipsystories.com TDD that's D I P S E-A stories.com TDD for 30 free days and 25% off your subscription. Dipsystories.com TDD.

[Sandra]

And then the next morning we get up and his phone was plugged into the charger. And I'm like, hey, is that my charger? And he starts screaming at me that I have been taking care of him for this long and I needed to keep doing it. I'm like, first off, it's 7 in the morning.

[Mackenzie]

Let's calm down, guy.

[Sandra]

Too early for screaming. And my question is, if it's my charger, I'm going to take it to training with us so we can charge up our phones during training.

[Hannah]

Yeah, I wasn't like accusing you, but also. Wait, that's an interesting thing to say too. You've been taking care of me this long so you have to keep taking care of me.

[Sandra]

Like, he's right.

[Hannah]

Nuts.

[Sandra]

So we go to another training and sit there and don't talk for hours. And I mean, really, at this point, he keeps leaving the training to talk on the phone. He just keeps leaving. So finally there's one more day and I am just sitting there like not being talked to. And I am in a training, It's a joint training. It's a first responder mental health training. So I'm sitting there with fire chiefs and law enforcement and other counselors and I can't say anything to anybody. And I'm sitting in that hotel room and I was able to put myself in a chair and I've got my computer up in front of me and I just started emailing my counselor. I said, I don't know how many emails until you can charge me for a full session, but just let me know or charge me whatever you want. I said, because I am in this room and I don't know what's going on and I don't know if we're both going to make it out of here because his behavior is so bizarre and so unpredictable and erratic. I don't know what to do because every other time he had started yelling at me about random things. He hurt me. But there's nobody around now and there's no way for me to get out. And there's no Uber in these small towns and there's no taxis and the airport was like an hour and a half away.

[Hannah]

So you have to keep him calm.

[Sandra]

I just did. I didn't respond, I didn't make eye contact. I just sat there. And after terrible that, I mean, that was a really important moment for me because then my counselor called me and I turned off My phone because I didn't want him to see that I was getting phone calls or something like that. And he left a voicemail, which are transcribed, so I can read it. And I'm like, well, if he is this concerned, maybe I need to be more concerned about what's going on. Because everything was like such a slow build, right? Yeah, I'm like, I need to be more concerned about this. So I left. And by the time I got home is when I started trying to figure out what was going on because I'm getting all this information about him from him getting fired and all the allegations. And then he disappeared for a week.

[Mackenzie]

A week?

[Sandra]

Yeah, he just vanished.

[Hannah]

This camping trip or wherever, who cares?

[Sandra]

He's like, I. I just needed some time to clear my head. And then.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, oh, good. Okay, sure, fine, buddy.

[Hannah]

Well, okay, good. So did you investigate?

[Sandra]

Was nice to have him gone. So that's when I started getting a little bit more suspicious and started like looking through stuff.

[Mackenzie]

Like what?

[Sandra]

And. And like seeing things. I got a little snoopy and just started opening drawers and looking in envelopes and all of those things. I checked all the finances. I figured out that he had stolen the deed to the house at some point as well as he had had several prescriptions for Viagra that I was not aware of. So I did. I started counting the pills and started noticing when they were missing, like when there was less and less and was able to kind of track that to this trip or that trip. And I just started to think that he didn't care that he was hiding it anymore. He didn't care to hide it. He wanted me to find it so he could move on. He could take everything from me and then leave to move on to the next victim. So it made it clear that I was dealing with a person that was really sinister and that was not the person I thought thought he was. But also he had stolen the deed to my house, so he still had.

[Hannah]

All of the power.

[Sandra]

So after April, I called law enforcement to ask questions. I'm like, what? What constitute a crime and what doesn't? I started calling attorneys and asking questions to see what I could do to get his name off my house. Because at this point, I couldn't keep him out of my home because his name was on it.

[Hannah]

And was he living there now at this point?

[Sandra]

Now that he gets fired, he is home more. He still had things at his parents house, but they eventually kick him out.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, okay, right.

[Sandra]

And so through the summer, he disappears. He ends up on other trips with other Gals. Other camping trips and stuff like that with this.

[Hannah]

And do you know about this firefighter.

[Sandra]

Gal from up north? Nobody will talk to me about anything. But the thing about social media is it's. Sometimes you can find things.

[Hannah]

Oh, we.

[Sandra]

We're aware.

[Hannah]

We're pretty good at it, right to a fault.

[Sandra]

I found he's hanging out with his barber, and she posted a lot of stuff on social media. So that's who he was going to Vegas with, his barber and her friend. And then these fire gals from up north. And there's so many posts of them getting together and drinking and having a good time. So I'm keeping tabs on him still, just trying to figure out what is going on and how I can get myself out of this situation. And then one night, he was sleeping here and gets up in the middle of the night to the bathroom, and I open my eyes and he walks in and I look and there's a new tattoo on his chest. I'm like, what is on your chest? Where the is going on? I'm like, did you get a tattoo? What the hell?

[Mackenzie]

Why don't. What are you talking about?

[Sandra]

Right? You don't see anything. Wait, what. What did.

[Hannah]

Was it like, did it look brand new, or did it look like he'd had it and just never mentioned it?

[Sandra]

I mean, I've seen him naked, so I. I mean, I would have known.

[Hannah]

He hadn't seen it prior.

[Sandra]

Yeah, yeah. It was a big black spot on his chest. I'm like, that's new.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, my God.

[Sandra]

He's like, well, yeah, I was just hanging out with the gals and they want to get a tattoo, and I was just. They were just using me for scratch paper. I'm like, I've never seen that happen in a tattoo shop. But okay, what. So that ties into all the other allegations. He ended up getting two or three tattoos within a couple months. And I'm like, this is weird. So then I see on those social media posts, this firefighter gal that he was working with, they have matching tattoos.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, no, fella. No, sir.

[Sandra]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

I am, like, putting together this timeline. You're still feeling trapped because he's on. His name is on your lease and he's volatile. So, like, confronting him about these things that you find out is almost off the table because you're just like, what do I do?

[Sandra]

And he has another imaginary trip to Indiana, which he came back super tan from Indiana, which seemed odd.

[Mackenzie]

I am like, this seems that Indiana sunshine.

[Hannah]

Oh, it's known for it, right?

[Sandra]

I'M like, you look really tan for being in Indiana. But, but that is when I'm like, I'm, I'm just absolutely done. I had started working at the crisis center. He went back to work at the crisis center. Then I went back to work at the crisis center. So we were both working at the crisis center again together.

[Mackenzie]

How was that?

[Sandra]

Adventuresome. That is when I called my sister and finally broke and started telling her some of the stuff that was going on. And she agreed to go to the domestic violence shelter with me. I called them and made an appointment to see if I could talk to somebody, see if they could help with anything, and went in and talked with one of the attorneys there.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, good. What did they say for? What did they do?

[Sandra]

I went in and I talked with this gal and I put everything together at that point. This is October, and I showed her what was going on. And I'm like, I said, I am afraid that if I try and end this relationship, he won't leave. Because this whole time he wouldn't leave. Like he, he wouldn't end the relationship. He's like, let's just work it out. And he just wouldn't agree. And I couldn't make him not be here. Yeah, he just kind of comes there whenever he wanted. Right. And I sat down with that attorney and showed her everything and she's like, well, you just have to sue him. You have to take him to civil court. And I'm like, well, can. Well, because I mean, he was taking everything I was making every month like over that time. Like the garage door broke, the air conditioner broke. Like up until last week it was still raining in the house because the windows were leaking and stuff like that. So I was trying to maintain the house and pay my bills while doing my job. So at this time I'm working two full time jobs and I can't afford anything. And I go and talk to this gal at the DV shelter and I'm like, can you guys help with that? And she's like, no. I'm like, what do you mean? She's like, no, I can't help with any of that. And I'm like, well, how do I do that?

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Sandra]

She's like, well, you just have to call and get an attorney. But everybody I had talked to wanted like a 5 or a $10,000 retainer.

[Mackenzie]

How are you supposed to. You gave him all your money. That's why I'm here, because I give him all my money.

[Sandra]

And so keep in mind in 2021, he put my cell phone on his family plan. And I didn't know this then, but he can see everybody I'm talking to. He can read all my text messages. So I have to be very, very careful how I do all of these things.

[Mackenzie]

Yep.

[Sandra]

It could be so dangerous and, like, try and do it by email or something like that where you can hide.

[Mackenzie]

It a little better.

[Sandra]

Right. So this gal is saying that they can't help me with anything, and. And nothing is overt enough or recent enough. It's got to be within 90 days to get a protection order. If it's violence with his name on the house, I can't bar him from being in the house. So I just sat there and sobbed, and my sister is out of her mind and doesn't know what to do, and we just left. And again, I just didn't know what to do. So I just kind of went home and went back to work and did all of those things for a while. But he was still taking trips out of town for whatever reason or disappearing for a while. So he wasn't home very often. But when he moved in, this was a big deal. When he moved his things into the house, we're going through his things, and he's consolidating and, like, we're trying to organize the garage because it's so much stuff. He opens up. It's called a jump bag, and it's the bag of stuff that they carry on an ambulance that has all the.

[Hannah]

Oh, okay.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, yeah. Familiar. Yeah.

[Sandra]

And he's showing me all of these things, and he worked at that medical clinic, and he's worked at a couple fire stations, and he has got vials of narcotics. What, like fentanyl and ketamine and toradol. Dozens of vials that he has taken from places that he's worked over the years or hospitals or surgery centers and stuff.

[Hannah]

That's real illegal.

[Mackenzie]

You think that is real illegal? 100%.

[Sandra]

And now I'm sitting here going, there. There are a lot of drugs in my house. Yeah, there's a lot of drugs that we shouldn't have in my house.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, my God.

[Sandra]

And again, I'm calling attorneys. He's like, well, you. You can't tell anybody because they will take your house. I'm like, what do you mean? He's like, if there's drugs in your house, they will take your house. I'm like, I. I don't understand any of this. So I'm being told not to tell anybody that this stuff is in my house.

[Hannah]

You're so isolated, and you can't get it rid of it because then there's.

[Mackenzie]

Nothing you can do.

[Hannah]

Ballistic.

[Sandra]

No. And all this stuff is. Is going on and so confusing. And we do Thanksgiving. His kids come over, and we do that, and we do Christmas and have everybody over and we do that. And then, you know, he just appears intermittently.

[Hannah]

Try Simply Pop. I already loved Simply products. You've seen them, like the lemonade. They're so good. Simply has launched a new prebiotic soda, Simply Pop, the new juicy soda that they've got five flavors. Pineapple, mango, lime, strawberry, citrus punch, and fruit punch. Pineapple mango is my favorite, but I really like them all, and you have to see what the fizz is all about. Okay. Simply Pop is the juicy new soda that happens when you combine delicious, real fruit flavors of simply with 6 grams of prebiotic fiber to support gut health. It also has vitamin C and zinc, so that supports your immune function. And it tastes really good. So I love that because sometimes I like a little fun special drink to feel like I'm drinking something fun. There's no added sugar, which you just can't beat. You have to try it. Simply Pop's really good. So go to cokeurl.com simply pop to find out where you can try Simply Pop.

[Mackenzie]

Hannah, didn't you say you got a Helix mattress for your mom?

[Hannah]

Yes. Well, I love Helix mattresses, and then I had to get one for my mom because she was having back pain and she had the same mattress for way too long and have to try this. I'm telling you, she's texted me, like, once a week to tell me how much she loves it.

[Mackenzie]

That is so funny, because I really didn't unders. I didn't know the difference between mattresses. I had never tried a Helix mattress, and I just got one for my son. Let me tell you, he wants to be in his bed, and I want to snuggle with him in his bed. It is so comfortable. And when you order the mattress you want, you go on the website and you get to decide, like, if you want it soft or firm, and then it tells you which. Yeah, it's like. Yeah, it's like a quiz. You just. You tell it what you want. And I wasn't sure what to think, but when it came, I was like, oh, my gosh, I want to sleep in my son's bed like he loves.

[Hannah]

You can have the master bedroom. I'll actually be in here from now on.

[Mackenzie]

I'm telling you, it was so good.

[Hannah]

Whether you have sleep Apnea, back pain, sleep, too hot. Like, there's so many things you can plug in to help cater the mattress to fit what you need. And I love Helix. It's really great.

[Mackenzie]

Go to helixsleep.com dating detectives for 27 off site, wide and free bedding bundle, which is a sheet set and mattress protector with any luxe or elite mattress order. So that's exclusive for Dating Detectives listeners. So definitely go grab that. That's helixsleep.com dating detectives for 27 off site wide and free bedding bundles. So the sheet set, mattress protector with any luxe or elite mattress order. Helixsleep.com Dating detectives.

[Sandra]

In January, I go visit him up north. He's working out of town and we come back and then February is my birthday and I catch him on the camera again, talking on the phone kind of like, like a fluke. And I see and it's like a facetime. I see him planning to go to the winter carnival.

[Mackenzie]

What an idiot.

[Sandra]

He's like, he tells me he's got a weekend trip planned, but it turns out it was just a day trip. He's gonna do his business trip and then he's gonna go take off with her and the other gal from up north and have a nice fun weekend with all of them for the winter carnival.

[Mackenzie]

Him and all these ladies, which I.

[Sandra]

Wanted to go to for my birthday, which I couldn't because he was out of town for work.

[Hannah]

He probably didn't even know about it until you said you wanted to go. And then he's like, oh, it's popular.

[Sandra]

Everybody knows about it up here. It's a very popular thing still.

[Hannah]

I don't like it.

[Sandra]

I didn't know they were going or gonna be in the parade and stuff like that. So while he's doing that, I am in the garage looking through things and I see some of his boxes are opened and emptied. There seems to be things missing. And I'm like, that's weird. Like when he moved years before, I helped him pack these boxes so I knew what was in them. So a lot of his artwork that was on the walls was missing a lot of other things. Like he had started, he moved a bed out, he moved dishes out, he moved a bunch of things out of the garage. He's like, oh, I'm giving it to this kid, or I'm giving it to my ex mother in law. I'm doing all of these things. He's like, I just want to make space for you and clean out the garage. But I'm like, It kind of looks like you're moving out.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah. Like little by little or something.

[Sandra]

Yeah. And I start to think that he must have found his next victim and he's moving his stuff in with her. Maybe so maybe he will finally allow our relationship to be over. But then I open up one of the boxes, and I see it's all new stuff. There's some really professional photographs that are just lovely of that gal from up north. I'm like, that's weird. And then there's a BDSM photo of a gal in bondage. I'm like, I don't recognize her.

[Hannah]

These, like, framed, or are they just loose photos?

[Sandra]

These are large, professional. Hang it on the wall photos.

[Hannah]

Oh, my God.

[Sandra]

I'm like, that's interesting. I wonder where you got that from. That looks like a Christmas gift. But then I see these two canvases.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, no.

[Sandra]

And I pull them out, and I look, and it looked like they had covered their naked bodies in paint instead on the canvases.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, God. One of those.

[Sandra]

And everybody had signed it.

[Hannah]

Wait, wait. How many people had signed it?

[Mackenzie]

How many people are there?

[Sandra]

There were three.

[Mackenzie]

So, like, him and the two gals?

[Sandra]

Yeah. Lord Jesus. And I mean, it's very. It's very clear what it is. I assure you.

[Hannah]

I don't doubt it. Oh, my God.

[Sandra]

And I see that, and again, my heart just drops. Because now all the pieces from why he got fired, like, the sex parties and stuff like that.

[Mackenzie]

Yep.

[Sandra]

Because remember, there were those rumors on social media about wild sex parties at the fire station house. I'm like, oh, all that's true. And then, like, the drugs, all of that is true? No, but there were a lot of other allegations. And I'm like, oh, no.

[Hannah]

Are they all true?

[Sandra]

And that's when everything became, like, really imminent. I'm like, I know if he comes home because again, we were supposed to work together in a couple of days and, like, be there at work all day together and be in this house together. And I'm like, I don't think I can hide that repulsion on my face. No, I don't think I can hide.

[Mackenzie]

Don't you don't hide it.

[Sandra]

He's gonna know. He's gonna absolutely know. So he's doing that thing where he's texting me, telling me he's on his way home. He's on his way home. He's on his way home. He's like, I'm looking for a flight. I love you. I want to get back to you. And it's my Birthday. And he is just texting back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. He's like, well, what do I do when I get off the plane? I'm like, what do you mean? He's like, well, what kind of mood are you in if you're not in a good mood? I don't want to deal with it or something like that. And anytime I talk about feelings or anything like that, he would be like, well, he would either make that vague suicide threat or be like, well, I'm just too much for you and you can't handle me. Maybe I should move out.

[Hannah]

Just threatening you so that you're always appeasing him. Yeah.

[Mackenzie]

And so it's your right too.

[Sandra]

Yep. And at this point I feel like he will want to leave because I have this suspicion that he's kind of on to the next girl. So if I can just give him an out, maybe he'll go. So I just told him, I said, you know, I just didn't like him being gone all the time and I can't deal with that. He's like, well, I should just move out. And I'm like, I. I think that's our only option because it's the only solution you come up with. And the next day he's like, well, what do we do now? I'm like, well, I thought you were moving out and he would never. You want me to leave? And I'm like, you said it.

[Hannah]

Yeah. It's just like whiplash.

[Sandra]

Right? So he came home at 8 o' clock on my birthday, packed a bag of stuff and took the dogs and left. And then I didn't know what I was gonna do, but I quit my job at the crisis center that next day and I, you know, it was just so complicated.

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Sandra]

But I did at that point feel like, he's out of my house, I don't have to see him at work, so maybe I can try and take some leg and it won't be too dangerous for me. It took me, it took me a month to find an attorney. Wow. Really? To like draw everything up. Because everybody was like, no, not my kind of case. Nobody wanted to touch it because what I put together was just fraud. Because he had lied about almost everything.

[Mackenzie]

Even if he lies about what he uses the money that you gave him for, that's a crime too. Like, that's a, that's a, that's an offense.

[Sandra]

Right? So, I mean, he lied, he lied about the taxes, he lied about the debt, he lied about everything to get money out of Me, he lied about what he was doing with it.

[Hannah]

Yep.

[Sandra]

So I finally get this attorney to draw up and serve him with paperwork. And during that process is when I am starting to really look at the bank accounts and see everything that he was doing and all those kind of cons and scams that he was running. Like, he'd asked to borrow, you know, a little bit or take my credit card to go buy something and be like, okay, so we're going to buy this, and it's going to be, you know, 100 bucks. And he would spend 1500.

[Hannah]

Can you, like, talk me through the feeling of you sitting at your computer going through your bank statements and putting together these scams? Like, what went through your head when you realized that's what he had been doing?

[Sandra]

It's so confusing again. It was so confusing. And I'm like, how. How does anybody even do that? Like, it would never, never in my life could I have guessed to try and do something like that.

[Hannah]

Yeah, I imagine it took a lot.

[Sandra]

There's no way I would have figured out how to scam somebody that much in so many different ways. Like figuring out all the bank stuff, from credit cards to taking money out of my accounts, to buying things on my credit card to. And there was so much. It was so hard to keep track of.

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Sandra]

And it took so long to figure out. So, yeah, a lot of stuff happened in getting everything together for that civil case. I'm looking at everything. And then as time goes on, I started to notice that my attorney was doing strange things.

[Mackenzie]

Things. No. What?

[Sandra]

I'm starting to see that he is not doing what I was asking him to do. Like, we're trying to do discovery, and we're trying to look at evidence, and he's not answering the emails, and then he's making mistakes and all of this stuff. And the receptionist, I finally call the office instead of emailing, and she's like, he's only here every other week. I'm like, well, why?

[Hannah]

What?

[Sandra]

She's like, well, he has concussion classes because he was in a car accident and had a traumatic brain injury. I'm like, what?

[Hannah]

We're like, concussion class. We have, like, nothing left to say. We're both just, like, staring blank.

[Sandra]

I can't breathe. I can't breathe. I'm like, what? So my attorney has a. Apparently this was prior to him taking my case. He had had a brain injury. And nobody told me he had Dane.

[Mackenzie]

Bramage long before, but whatever.

[Sandra]

Right. That would kind of make sense why he takes so long to get back to me because he only works short hours every other week. But then we're going through discovery and I'm trying to get everything figured out and there's so much paperwork and there's so much stuff. So with all of the property and all of the money loaned and all of these things, I sued him to get the house back and for like $250,000.

[Hannah]

Yikes.

[Sandra]

Wow. But we get the subpoena back, I'm like, can we amend the complaint to just kind of reflect what we've learned here? And he's like, yeah, great. So they amend that. And I see that it was filed because here we have a state repository and we can kind of look, you can't see the details unless you have extended access, but you can see date and time stamp stuff. And I see it was filed, but I. They sent me the copy of the amended complaint and I looked at it and I'm like, this is the wrong one. This is the outdated one from April, not the appropriate one. So they filed the wrong amended complaint, which. Which changed everything completely.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, no.

[Sandra]

And I am desperate and panicked and nobody from his office is getting back to me for weeks. And I finally lost my shit. And I.

[Mackenzie]

Hell yeah, you did.

[Sandra]

Everybody. I messaged his ex wife, I messaged the fire chief, I messaged the mayor of the small town. I messaged everybody. And some people got back to me and some people didn't. But I had many conversations with the fire chief about exactly what had happened there. I shared with him a little bit about what was going on and then asked, what? What happened? What happened in this little town, what is true and what isn't true. And this is when I really start to unravel the truth of what was happening. It turns out hundreds of thousands of dollars are missing from the city budget that they can't account for. They think that that was probably Jacob, but they can't prove it. And now, now it's 20, 25 and they still haven't figured it all out, which is unreal. He also told me about a lot of cheating that was happening up there when I wasn't there. Just all of the women that he was bringing up and around there that I didn't know about. He did tell him things because we spent a lot of time together up there. So it was a pretty familiar and comfortable conversation. He said, yeah, I was really worried about you because he had said, she's got a lot of money and I'm going to take it. And that was pretty devastating. So really, all the allegations on Facebook were accurate. All of the things that I had been suspicious of, like he, he was spending a lot of money on people up there and financing tattoos and trips and other things where I thought he was just working really hard. He was having a good time. I also got in touch with his ex wife and that was kind of crazy because like the stories matched up so much in some areas. But I also found out what the things he was saying about me to the kids and his family and what he was saying to where they wouldn't tell me what was going on. So he was telling the kids that we were just buddies and he was helping me out. So that's the way he could bring other women around as well as like the same financial behavior. They filed for bankruptcy twice during their marriage. So that kind of spending, not to mention the numerous affairs and how he did them and the things like, of course she told me all these awful things about her. So we went back and forth on that and she's like, well, this is how this situation happened and this is how that situation happened. It was really enlightening and, and just how the stories mirrored were really interesting too. And then I am looking through his Venmo and I see back in 2021 when he is telling me I am crazy and I've ruined everybody's life. He gave that gal in Alabama $10,000, dear Lord. And he is funding shopping sprees and girls nights out and mani pedis and.

[Hannah]

All on the Venmo right when he.

[Sandra]

Is begging me for money.

[Hannah]

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[Mackenzie]

TDD you guys, did you know that I have a nickname and it's Snack Pack because I love food so much, but also I'm not a very good cooker. So I love things like Green Chef. They give you dietitian approved recipes and it's perfect for supporting your wellness journey. And also I am on a wellness journey myself with losing weight and just keeping a better eye on what I put in my body. Anyways, Green Chef offers recipes that feature fresh, organic, seasonal produce, 100% responsibly sourced proteins crafted to help you feel your best. And also, one thing I want to point out is when you choose the meals that you want, there's a Mediterranean option. And I love Mediterranean food. Hannah, what kind of food do you love the best?

[Hannah]

Wait, it's funny that you said that because I got Mediterranean too.

[Mackenzie]

Did you really? Oh my gosh.

[Hannah]

I love it. But they also. Yeah, they have anything plant based. Protein packed keto. I wasn't sure if I should do protein packed because I've been similar to you. I've been trying to be more clean with my eating and just not have as much processed food. And it's a lot of work. And I find that when I use Green Chef, I eat more consistently and if I don't have something like that, I find myself not eating enough.

[Mackenzie]

Not eating enough is a thing too that people don't realize.

[Hannah]

I'm venting right now, guys. But it's real. And having something like this changes my health and my energy and makes it so much easier to stay on top of that. And we're all really busy. We all get into different schedules and modes and different levels of stress. And this is just one of those things that makes it easier to treat yourself the way you deserve to be treated.

[Mackenzie]

Yes, treat yourself and your body. They have options for like gut and brain health Calorie smart choices, stuff like that. Also, I would like to add that they have new heat and eat meals. So it's like, oh, that's like three minute meal, girl. If, if you are like so many other people, you're not alone. Like you just want to pop something in and have it ready right away. That's me. So whether it's a salad ready in just five minutes or a protein packed breakfast or a smoothie or one of the heat and eat meals, Green Chef has you covered for the busiest days and it's real clean ingredients and you can build healthy habits without the hassle. It has week to week flexibility. You can adjust your plan anytime to fit your schedule. They send you all the ingredients, you put it together and boom, dinner is served. Make this spring your most delicious yet with Green chef. Head to greenchef.com 50dating detectives and use code 50dating detectives to get 50% off your first month. Then 20% off for two months with free shipping. That's code 50dating [e-mail] 50dating detectives.

[Sandra]

Then I start putting a lot of pieces together. And also in my snap, I messaged the husband of the gal from up north.

[Mackenzie]

What he say?

[Sandra]

She. She didn't feel comfortable talking to me. But I did message him and asked and, and I said, this is who I am and I was wondering if you'd be okay talking to me and stuff like that. And we have talked quite a bit. And I mean, it's really heartbreaking because they were married and since then they've gotten divorced and are filing for bankruptcy. That's hard because of all of the things that happened. And I mean, she's changed jobs and they've moved towns and.

[Hannah]

Yeah, I mean, this guy's like, what happened up there?

[Sandra]

Like, I'm like, what happened? He's like, she won't really talk about everything that happened. But one of the things that I had heard that they had locked her in a back room during one of those drunken parties. It wouldn't let her out in that town, that her kid had come to see her and was at the door and wanted to talk to her and they wouldn't let her out to talk to him.

[Mackenzie]

What?

[Sandra]

And based on what I know, I believe that and that there were other events with some of these other women where he was violent with them. And again, like, people were there and saw it but couldn't really stop it as well.

[Hannah]

This is like reminding me of like P. Diddy and all of that stuff going on right now. It's like, right? There's so much that we. I. I bet with this guy, there's a lot that happened that we will never know.

[Mackenzie]

I can't even.

[Sandra]

I. I am afraid of what we don't know. I. I mean, really, just. Because he could lie to me so easily, so many times with no fear of consequence, because he's just kept on doing stuff and leaves everybody devastated.

[Hannah]

Can we go back to your court case? Because I want to hear the outcome, and then I want to discuss how do I get him in jail?

[Sandra]

Right. I couldn't get my attorney to fix the amended complaint. He refused to do it. And we sat down and had a meeting two days before Thanksgiving. And he told me he didn't want to do it anymore.

[Mackenzie]

It was too hard.

[Sandra]

Like, I'm like, what?

[Hannah]

That's insane.

[Sandra]

He's like, well, the other attorney says we're going to lose. I don't want to do this anymore. I'm like, that's his job. What the hell? What do you mean?

[Mackenzie]

That's literally your job.

[Sandra]

Right? And I'm like, well, will you give me time to find a new attorney? I couldn't even think of what to do, and I was just devastated. And I called more attorneys, and I couldn't get anybody to take my case, and I called legal aid in all of these places, and I just couldn't get anybody to do it. And I just. I broke down and I. I think I called my parents, and I was just sobbing about what was going on. And, I mean, they knew some things. And my dad called a friend who called a friend, and we were able to consult with a couple of different attorneys that gave me some advice and looked over the case a bit, and we sat down with the first one, and he looked at me and said, yeah, I have a case with that guy right now. And he said that he is really struggling to do his job because of this brain injury. And I'm like, well, okay, that explains it. But that doesn't help me.

[Hannah]

Doesn't help.

[Sandra]

Yeah, like, because that parasites attorney was doing a really good job. Like.

[Hannah]

Yep.

[Sandra]

I mean, he was hammering me on evidence and trying to force things and stuff like that, and putting on a lot of pressure, but also really frustrated. Eventually I started to see all of the emails, to see all of the things that my attorney missed, that he had refused to respond to opposing counsel and had made a lot of mistakes.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, God.

[Hannah]

So what next?

[Sandra]

So my attorney is now saying he wants to quit, and a couple days later, he's leaning towards staying on the case that he'll offer me a deal, like, for 10 hours a month and, like, $2,000, he'll keep working on my case.

[Mackenzie]

I'm sorry.

[Sandra]

That's suspicious. And. And he's like, can. Can you even afford to do this? He's like, I don't want to be just one more guy who takes advantage of you. And I'm like. I'm like, then don't.

[Hannah]

Right, well. So did the friends of your dad give any legal advice that was different or helpful or like, he's like, well.

[Sandra]

Your attorney can't quit. There's only certain reasons why an attorney can quit. If they have, like, a medical reason and they can't move forward or if I'm trying to get them to do something criminal.

[Hannah]

Well, they have a medical reason. Right, Right.

[Sandra]

But he would have to admit that he's not competent to do his job, to do that, and he didn't want to do it. So I think he was trying just to get me to fire him. Right.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, my freaking God.

[Sandra]

But at this point, I had already given this guy $20,000, and he had made so many mistakes. The other attorney said that there's so many mistakes, and you're in so much money, and the likelihood of being able to fix it all is pretty rare and could be incredibly expensive. And the only offer that the Parasite gave was he would sign back the house if I forgave everything known and unknown that he's done.

[Mackenzie]

No, that's not gonna work out.

[Sandra]

But that's the only offer they ever made, and they wouldn't concede on anything.

[Hannah]

I love that you just started calling him the Parasite. Because that's exactly.

[Sandra]

That's how he's been in my phone for a long time.

[Hannah]

He is. He fully is. He sucks you dry.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Sandra]

I can't. Yeah, so he.

[Hannah]

Yeah, so you're like, that's the.

[Sandra]

Out of the offer. And I. And I kept telling my attorney, I said, I don't want to do that. I don't want to do it. I don't want to do that. I told him that for months. I said, I can't do that. Like, I have an incredibly strong case for fraud.

[Hannah]

Just.

[Sandra]

Just do your fucking job. That's all I need to do is do your fucking job. I said, we have a dozen witnesses that will come up and say that this guy is scum.

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Sandra]

I have photos. I have bank records. I have four years of text.

[Mackenzie]

We literally have everything. Like, let's be real, right?

[Sandra]

Just do your fucking job. And he wouldn't do it.

[Hannah]

Oh, my God.

[Mackenzie]

And un freaking real.

[Sandra]

And I am broke, and the house is falling apart, and it is raining inside, and I am exhausted because to be a victim requires so much work. You've got to take off work and go to court. You've got to buy cameras. You've got to file for and pay for the attorney. I've got to change the locks three or four times. I've got to be aware all the time or check the cameras or keep the gates padlocked, which is not something that he has to do. So I. Again, I'm just panicked and desperate and terrified. But it was around this time that I realized he was still coming into my house when I wasn't home, and there was nothing I could do about it because his name was on the deed. There were two incidences that I'm aware of. One of them, I came in, and it. You know, you just. It feels off, like this has been moved slightly, but that's when it smelled like him. And I looked around a little bit to see if there was anything obvious. And then the second time is when I actually saw his vehicle come, and I went the other way. I was walking the dog, and I'm like, well, there's no way I'm going that direction. I'm just gonna go the other way and walk around this, because I wasn't sure if he would have seen me or not. And again, it's. It's like I don't know what he's doing or looking for or would be taking or not. So it's like the worst scavenger hunt ever to figure out. And that second time is when the keys went missing, the master keys for the house. And that one was the most terrifying because it just let me know that he still wanted to maintain access for whatever reason, but that's also letting me know that he. He was in control and he had power and he could do whatever he wanted, whenever he wanted, which is super scary and really kind of changes how you look at everything. So, I mean, I've changed the locks twice, so in January, I didn't know what else to do, so I. I just had to sign that. So I. I cried and I signed it, and I sent it in, and they did give me, like, the quit claim to the house that day, and. And that was our agreement. I'm like, the second I sign this paperwork, you have got to hand me that. I said, there's no waiting. There's nothing. So I was able to take it that day and file it with the county and get his name off my house that day.

[Mackenzie]

Well, at least there's something that went right. Jesus Christ.

[Sandra]

Which meant he wasn't allowed to come back to the house anymore.

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Sandra]

Like. Like I could call the police if he did.

[Mackenzie]

Small wins.

[Hannah]

I'm so glad you're safe. First and foremost, because he's a loose cannon that I just can't. I don't know how you lived that way, knowing he could just come in.

[Mackenzie]

How.

[Sandra]

I didn't. I have a lot of security for my crappy little house and, like, sensors on all the doors and cameras everywhere. My neighbors think I'm insane.

[Mackenzie]

Let them. Let them be cares.

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Sandra]

Right after that, girls weekend with my mom and my sis and my niece and stuff like that, they. My sister puts on the Gabby Petito documentary.

[Mackenzie]

Okay.

[Sandra]

And. And I hadn't watched it. I had heard about it because it was close, Right?

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Sandra]

After that, I started having really awful nightmares and, like, watching her because there was. They showed video of her and watching her and seeing her. And that's when I figured out that I am her or have been her or have been in that position. So I decided that I would just see what I could do to report some of the things that he had done to me to the police. So I started doing that. I did file a complaint on my attorney.

[Mackenzie]

Good.

[Sandra]

With the state bar. And they're doing that now.

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Sandra]

But then I started filing reports on the parasite. And I mean, the way it works is it's gotta be in each county or each city or each place. And anything that happens, like, on a cruise ship has to be reported to the FBI.

[Hannah]

Okay.

[Mackenzie]

Because it's international waters.

[Sandra]

Right. So I reported everything. I sent photos of the drugs to prosecutors in the dea. I reported the assault on the ship. I reported several things that happened locally.

[Mackenzie]

Good for you. Was there a statute of limitations at all, or were you in quite a bit?

[Sandra]

Is. Most of it's out. Most of it's out of the statute of limitations. There was an incident that was a sexual assault where he had gotten me very intoxicated. And then I had woken up covered in bruises. And even though I had text messages of us talking about the bruises in that night and stuff like that, I called to report that locally. You call the sheriff dispatch runs, or the sheriff runs dispatch. And then they send it over to the local police, they're like, okay, somebody from local police will contact you. So I called them to report it. Police call. They're like, can you come in and do a report? Tonight. So I hop in and I drive over and I do that. By the time I get home, the parasite's ex wife had messaged me and asking me why I would include her son in something. I'm like, what? What is going on? The dispatcher who took my report for that sexual assault happened to go to high school with her son. Oh. So the dispatcher started texting him, asking him about my relationship with his dad.

[Hannah]

That's so unprofessional.

[Mackenzie]

So unprofessional.

[Hannah]

And it's one of the many reasons that people don't want to report.

[Sandra]

So she is so mad. Just rightfully so. I absolutely understand that.

[Mackenzie]

So, dude, I'm fucking pissed. Like, I'm done.

[Sandra]

I'm like, well, now he might know that I am reporting what he's doing. And up until this point, he might not have because, I mean, kids talk. And it was, it was probably, it was very upsetting for him to hear that. Sure, I'm sure. So he's gonna talk to his siblings or he's gonna talk to his mom or family or something like that. So I don't know what's happened in their family since that conversation. I do know that the detectives called me and said, well, there's no evidence. You didn't take pictures, you didn't go to the hospital. So we can't investigate that because I didn't give them all the evidence.

[Hannah]

And you have, you do have texts about it, but that's not enough.

[Sandra]

Okay, well, he didn't say, thanks for letting me assault you last night. So it's not enough.

[Hannah]

And were you, did you say anything about the leak of information to the son? Did you say to the detective that, like, somebody in your office shared what they shouldn't have shared?

[Sandra]

I, I said, this is concerning. I, I think I need a protection order because this information has been shared. He's like, oh, we don't handle that. So I had to get on, you know, and fill out a citizen's complaint form. And like a week later, somebody called and said, oh, that super sucks. He's like, I'm going to talk to my captain. If my captain thinks we're gonna send it over to IAA for investigation. I'm like, cool. So that's where that's at. I have no idea what's going on with this dispatcher. If they're investigating that or anything will come of that at all.

[Hannah]

I am so upset.

[Sandra]

The complaints with. The complaints with the lawyers take, you know, can take years to resolve.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah. Because they have to Go through all the mumbo jumbo. Yeah, it's all a bunch of dumb crap.

[Sandra]

I've had the prosecutors and law enforcement just say one of the prosecuting attorneys said, quote, unquote, that's not sexy enough for them. As far as, like, the narcotics.

[Mackenzie]

It's not sexy. And. Oh, I'm sorry. Oh, okay. Got it.

[Sandra]

Right. That it's too hard to investigate the theft of those narcotics. So he gets to have them, I guess, because they don't. I'm like, this is. I told them where they were and they're like, yeah, we're not going to go. Look, that's disturbing.

[Hannah]

I know you can't report him for the crimes he committed against other people, but I wish there was a holistic approach to these where somebody could be like, oh, in another county, he was involved in abuse allegations and sex stuff in a workplace and theft and was fired for all of these things. That should factor into whether or not somebody wants to investigate. Like, I get it, okay, maybe there's too many cases or something is complicated and you can't do everything. But, like, that information should be factored in, even if you're. It's not your case to allege. Does that make sense? Am I crazy?

[Sandra]

The small towns are so strange to work with because they just don't have the resources to do anything like that.

[Mackenzie]

Or the balls to do anything. I just call a spade.

[Sandra]

Well, yeah, it's so bizarre. And just how untouchable he is.

[Hannah]

And that's how they can get away with little things here and little things there and this and that.

[Sandra]

I mean, with like no moral compass and none of the rules apply to him. And it's so many things. It takes so long to really figure out what happened. And. And people are just devastated, like filing for bankruptcy or changing jobs or so afraid to talk because they're afraid they're going to get in trouble or.

[Mackenzie]

Yep.

[Sandra]

Lose their jobs.

[Mackenzie]

That is so sad.

[Sandra]

I've never seen anybody do things like this before, ever.

[Mackenzie]

Insane.

[Sandra]

I've seen a lot of crazy.

[Hannah]

I mean, you work at a crisis.

[Mackenzie]

I mean, doing the job. Doing the job.

[Sandra]

You do.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, Right.

[Sandra]

And I mean, I've heard some wild stories, but this guy takes the cake. And to do it like that, hide in plain sight. Most people think monsters are under the bed or in the closet.

[Mackenzie]

No, they are right in front of your face.

[Sandra]

Most people think, right, we're on a plane to Mexico and we're camping and fishing. Or he comes in and gets bed next to me and his daughter is.

[Hannah]

Part of your life. Like you're in his family. Like these. That's. I mean, most domestic violence is interpersonal and within family, but he's got your.

[Mackenzie]

Money, so that's all he cares about.

[Hannah]

What do we do?

[Sandra]

Like, I don't know.

[Hannah]

How are you?

[Sandra]

It depends on the day. Most days. I mean, the value of having, like, journals or text messages and stuff like that is. I can see how sun shines and rainbows and stuff. And optimistic. I was for a really long time. I mean, it's absolutely changed everything forever. Because I didn't know this was possible before. It's absolutely changed how I approach people in domestic violence situations. In my work, the value of just kind of sitting there with somebody so they're not alone is huge. And the value of a therapist that I had that could do that, that is so hard because I could see him worry about me and be afraid for me and want to understand. Or friends. I mean, I have some amazing friends that I did start talking to that live close, and they said, if you need anything, just call and we will be there in three minutes. Or if you need to come hang out here for a couple weeks. And I did. I taken off and spent weekends with friends out of state and stuff like that. And they will just sit there with me and. Which is amazing.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, for sure.

[Hannah]

This is so important. I mean, if somebody listening has a friend that they think is in your situation, what would you tell them?

[Sandra]

There's no handbook for this. So there's no right or wrong way to be abused. And you don't have to decide anything today if it takes you a year.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, that's good advice.

[Sandra]

Ten years. That's okay. If you want to report it, you can report it. If you don't, don't. And everything you do is okay because. Because it isn't always bad. Sometimes you laugh and sometimes you fun or sometimes like. Like you're so stuck. I still, you know, people would tell me, just give him the house, give up, Give him everything and leave. And I'm like, well, I. I'm not capable of that. Like, you can't just give somebody a house and leave because you have to pay taxes on that. But, like, I can't just. I can't go work in another state. Sometimes it takes years to transfer my license to do that.

[Hannah]

Yeah, like, you shouldn't have to be strong enough to deal with any of this and that.

[Sandra]

I mean, that's the thing that I've learned so much, is that it takes so much work to be a Victim. Everybody just kept giving me tasks to do. Like. Like, even that last detective that I talked to that won't investigate, he sent me a victim witness coordinator to give me resources for counseling, which is not funny. But she called, and I'm like, why does everybody keep telling me that? I said, it doesn't matter how much counseling I do. I said, I'm not the problem. What I need somebody to do is. Is stop all of this.

[Mackenzie]

Like, I'm fine. I didn't need freaking counseling.

[Hannah]

I don't want to learn how to deal with this because I shouldn't have to.

[Mackenzie]

Have to.

[Sandra]

I need to stop being terrorized by the system that I've believed in my whole life by, like, law enforcement and dispatchers and attorneys and the domestic violence shelters that said they couldn't help me with anything.

[Hannah]

I can't. I am so devastated.

[Sandra]

Like. Like, unless I was willing to move out of my own home and be homeless, they could help me for 30 days in a shelter.

[Mackenzie]

I'm like, what are you supposed to do with that?

[Sandra]

And, like, that. That doesn't help me literally do anything.

[Mackenzie]

Thank you, though.

[Hannah]

It's also like.

[Sandra]

And, like, that makes no sense.

[Hannah]

That feeling of having to, like. Like, you're a professional. You have a career. You built up your life. You supported this parasite. And then to have to go into a shelter and have nothing is humiliating and doesn't help your healing in a lot of ways because it's just, like, keeping you down. I'm like, I just can't. It doesn't. I don't. I just want to make this better for people in your situation.

[Mackenzie]

Will you keep us updated on this? I would. I want to know more. And I'm. I know that some of our audience is going to have some kind of advice or, you know, offer some recommendations, and we'll be sure to send those to you. And there's got to be. You know what I mean? Like, there's got to be something. It is. Can't.

[Hannah]

Your job is to heal. Our job is to rally with our community.

[Mackenzie]

We're going to rally for you. Absolutely.

[Sandra]

I would. Yeah. I mean, it would be great to see other people's perspective, but, I mean, it's hard because I think. I mean, law enforcement wants to help or counselors want to help. They want to do all these things. They just can't. And it's so weird to see how nobody can help with any of it.

[Mackenzie]

And then everybody's saying, this is too hard. We can't take this on. Like, what you're a pussy. Stop. Like I was. You know what I mean?

[Hannah]

Do you know where he is now?

[Sandra]

As far as I know, he is still working at the crisis center and romantically entangled with that young lady, among others. I mean, because really, by my last count, there was like 14 women through that four years. And some of them, I really think, are lifers. They are going to have some sort of relationship with him forever.

[Hannah]

He's got them in the web.

[Mackenzie]

Sandra, we got your back. I'm so grateful that you shared your story with us.

[Sandra]

Thank you for your time. I appreciate it.

[Hannah]

Thank you for taking this time and being so honest, because this was a lot.

[Mackenzie]

Okay, well, that's a. It's a lot, right? We told you guys it was a lot. Like, it's. It's. Oh, my God.

[Hannah]

Sandra. I really loved her and I loved her vulnerability. And there's a lot to get into if you're new. We do a dogfish debrief at the end of our stories to talk through it, to process, to think about what we can learn. Dogfish are obviously people that are not who they say they are. And this guy had who a lot of. Dog.

[Mackenzie]

Dog, fishery.

[Hannah]

Dog fishery. He was dog. Fishy. Is. But yeah, no, there's so much here.

[Mackenzie]

So one of the things I wanted to mention was about. So Sandra's a therapist, right. And I think that there's a stigma behind being someone like a therapist who needs therapy or someone like a therapist who needs help or whatever.

[Hannah]

Oh, yeah.

[Mackenzie]

And it seems like, oh, well, if a therapist. First of all, therapists are naturally empathetic. Right. But you might think like, oh, how could a therapist let themselves get into this? They should know better. But they're. They're empathetic. Like, they're still humans, right?

[Sandra]

They're still humans.

[Hannah]

And also, it's not the same thing when it's yourself. Like, therapists go to therapy for a reason. They can't therapize themselves.

[Mackenzie]

Right. Because it's your own brain. And so whenever she would go to seek help, like, first of all, if you're a therapist and you work in a crisis center. In a crisis center, then you know other people. So most of the people that she probably went to talk to, she knew. So that's kind of uncomfortable. But you might think they should know better than to be gaslit or manipulated. And that's just. Just. I feel like nothing.

[Hannah]

Yeah, there's a lot of. I could see, I mean, how she would have shame around being the person that people trust for help.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

Of Course needing help herself.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

And I wish we could take that away from them. Like, I want to go to my therapy session next week and be like, hey, just a reminder, you can have help too.

[Mackenzie]

Because even therapists need somebody else to talk to. They can't talk to them. I mean, they can talk to themselves, but you know what I mean? Like, they need someone else that they can bounce their thoughts off of. So.

[Hannah]

Well, yeah, So I get that. I really get that that's been hard for her. That is so hard. There's a lot of self induced shame around that. And I'm sure it's very. It's not even super clear in your head. She used the word blurry a few times and I marked it down because I think that is a great descriptor for so, so so many of these stories. Like, you are just so foggy throughout the whole thing and you doubt yourself and you second guess everything. And I get that. So that's a great point. Yeah, there's a lot. Okay. Financial abuse.

[Mackenzie]

Oh, man, that made me mad. Like, just for someone to be so kind and then for someone else to be okay with taking advantage of someone like that, oh, man, that really makes me angry.

[Hannah]

Yeah. We're not people that can diagnose, but it's like you have to have a personality disorder to be able to do something so diabolical in with somebody you love.

[Mackenzie]

How can you really, like, allow?

[Sandra]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

Feeling like that is wild. We all want to protect ourselves. But you don't live your life assuming that your boyfriend is scamming. It's just a tough thing.

[Mackenzie]

Yep.

[Hannah]

But I think we, we talked about this before we started recording after so many of these stories, we just have to get on board with the idea that if you're lending money, you can't expect to get it back ever. I think that's just across the board.

[Mackenzie]

If you're going to give someone money, just assume that you will never see it again. And if that's not okay with you, don't lend it. Like you. You're right, Hannah. You just have to assume you're. You're just never gonna. You have to.

[Hannah]

And then if you're in a case like this, the financial abuse is something that keeps people there because they either don't have the resources to get away safely and quickly and so they're waiting for that, or you're trying to get that money back, or you're hoping that it will turn around because you've lost so much, you've invested so much, but your life is more important. And I just wish that. I just wish that didn't happen. And it's so interesting to think about it, because I think on the outside, it's easy to be like, well, okay, they stole money from you, but they didn't do something physical or didn't. In this case, he did. But you know what I mean? Like, it's easy to think of that as not as big of a deal.

[Mackenzie]

Kind of write it off a little bit.

[Hannah]

It's. That's kind of a good, good, good use of.

[Mackenzie]

No pun intended.

[Hannah]

It's almost debilitating in a longer sense, because you can't help yourself. You can't do anything if you don't have the means.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, exactly.

[Hannah]

So there's a lot of that that.

[Mackenzie]

Makes me so sad. And then she's like. Like, I don't want to leave because I want my money back. And then it's like, you're not gonna get it back. But then also there's like that, well, but I want. If I stay, I can get my money back. I've already come this far. Like, I might as well stay. Sunk cost fallacy, like we talked about, where you're like, I've already invested this much. I might as well stay. And then now you're stuck, and now you're spinning in circles. It's. It's terror. It's awful. It's awful.

[Hannah]

She also talked about how, like, it's not stealing if you gave it to them. Like, if you gave your credit card to him and he used it for something else. I know we've talked about how if they use it for something they're not saying they're using it for, it's a crime. But it does seem like it gets murky if their name is on it or you gave it to them, and.

[Mackenzie]

Then it's like, well, you gave me permission. Yeah, that's pretty murky. Yes. Oh, man.

[Hannah]

We'll continue this financial conversation because it's an ongoing thing, and I would love to find ways to help support people in protecting themselves.

[Mackenzie]

Speaking of you guys, speaking of supporting our guests, sometimes we get some. I know some of you have pointed out some negative comments or whatever. So here's the deal with if you see us ever deleting a negative comment. There are some times when. When our guests come on and tell these stories, they're telling it from a very vulnerable place. And if there's a. Something negative that someone wants to say, like, hurtful.

[Hannah]

Towards.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, like hurtful. Like, mean. We don't want to Subject our guests to that. It's just not necessary. If it's, if it's not, if it doesn't provide any value or any like, you know, reasonable conversation, then there's no need for it. So we're just gonna delete it? Not, I mean, we want to be objective, but also there's a, there's a adult, tactful, mature, responsible way to say, hey, I don't agree with this because of this or whatever. And there's a nice way to say stuff. You don't have to be a dick.

[Hannah]

You know, And a lot of you do. Like, we want people to have conversations around what they can learn from the stories, but with respect. And if you're just going to add to the guest's trauma, we are protecting them. So.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, thank you. Adding to their trauma, it's just not necessary. And it's just, it's not. If it's not necessary, if it's not valuable, then what's the point? You know?

[Hannah]

And if you have a strong feeling, talk to your friends about it. Like, we want you to have those conversations. We get it. You can criticize us all you, you want because we're public people who are open to it, but they're not, they're not influencers, they're not.

[Mackenzie]

Not that we would ever deserve it. So be nice.

[Hannah]

No.

[Sandra]

Yeah, we're perfect.

[Mackenzie]

But even if we weren't, like, nobody deserves, it's so disgusting the way some people see each other online. But just be sweet. Yeah, just be friggin sweet.

[Hannah]

And here, I'll give you one. We got a couple messages, DMs and messages that were so sweet, so kind. And we're like, I am a nurse. Your guest mentioned that Ativan is a beta blocker. I just want to let you know that it's not. And it's a Zodiaz Opinezapine. I don't know how to say that.

[Mackenzie]

They're both B words.

[Hannah]

Yes, but they're not the same thing. And some of you nurses out there were really sweet and some pharmacists were just like, I just had to say something just in case somebody got misinformation. I hope none of you are getting your medical information from us. But if you are, just know that was error and you respectfully let us know.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah, that's respectful. That's like, hey, you can. There's just a kind, respectful, tactful way to disagree. It doesn't. You. You can be nice, be sweet, be sweet to each other.

[Hannah]

But thank you for Saying that I agree with you. Couple of other things that I wrote down. Okay. I wanted to talk about why people. The way she got beat down over time. Like, she stopped resisting in a way, after a lot of instances of emotional abuse, of looking to get answers or help and being gaslit or rejected. And I felt that it was a learned helplessness, which I went way back to my, like, psychology, oh, textbook days.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

Kind of like the if you can't beat them, join them mentality.

[Mackenzie]

Learn just helplessness.

[Hannah]

It's just easier for everyone if I acquiesce all of my power to the abuser. It's easier for me. It's easier for them, easier for everyone around me. And I kind of saw that happening, which I think is really common when you don't have a lot of examples of support and you have nowhere to go. And this all happens covertly. You know, it was happening in public, it was happening among family. Like, that is a lot to reiterate to someone that you might as well just shut down. It's subconscious, too. It's not like she's consciously like, well, I guess I'll just give up fighting. It's why your body shuts down in the face of abuse. It's why your nervous system shuts down. It's. It's a common reason for people to either stay with abusers, to defend abusers. And I know from the outside that's hard to understand. I was even thinking about Stockholm syndrome, like, why people stay in those relationships because you develop a strong and loyal attachment. And it's. There's.

[Sandra]

There's.

[Hannah]

There's science. It's not you. You're not stupid. There's science that's stronger than you guys.

[Mackenzie]

I'm so glad you said that because it's absolutely true. And that's such a good point. Oh, my gosh.

[Hannah]

Like, also, like, she's on these trips. She had to keep him calm because she didn't know what he was going to do. You know, she's operating from a place of, I just have to keep the peace or else I could turn it into Gabby Pitino, that documentary that she watched that made her kind of click and realize, that could have been me.

[Mackenzie]

Yeah. And that's. That's kind of interesting, too, is when you hear these stories and you find parallels in your own story and they make you realize that that could have been me.

[Hannah]

Yeah, it was interesting. She also didn't validate her situation until her other counselor validated it and showed concern for it.

[Mackenzie]

Like, yeah, she like, Like Almost like it's not worthy enough to show concern for something. Like she's. You know what I mean? I. That's. Yes.

[Hannah]

Well, I hope the sticker in Ulta or the universe or maybe sticker from dating detectives or just a story of dating detectives can be the thing that maybe helps you validate that what you've went. Been through in the past or are going through. I hope you're not going through anything but that you deserve help. And then keep sharing, Keep sharing. The next thing she said, this is the thing that blew my mind the most. Once she did start asking for help. She said, it's so much work to be a victim.

[Mackenzie]

Yes.

[Hannah]

Everyone just keeps giving you tasks. I was. And nothing was getting done. She's like, everyone's just like, oh, here, go to this therapist. Oh, go to this resource. Oh, they send you to.

[Mackenzie]

Why do I have to fix me? Exactly.

[Hannah]

I wanted to. My heart was hurting when she said that.

[Mackenzie]

And I hope everybody point too, because it's true. It's like, why, why do I have to put in all this? Like, why can't we go for this person? And you know. Yes.

[Hannah]

And the legal stuff, it's like, well, go do this and then go pay for this and then go pay for that and maybe it will work. And it's like, I didn't want a full time job. I just wanted to heal and I don't have a solution for that. I just think that it's not okay the way the system's set up to just kind of.

[Mackenzie]

It feels a little unjust. Yeah. Feels really unjust.

[Hannah]

But that was really powerful of her to say.

[Mackenzie]

I agree. I. I agree. And I'm just. Sandra, I'm so proud of you for telling your story. Thank you so much. The amount of people that just one story can touch is unreal to me. So I think that's really.

[Hannah]

She's amazing. And you just.

[Mackenzie]

That sense of community you create. I tell you guys, every time it's that sense of community. You are part of something bigger than yourself, of a community that needs your story and you are worthy of being heard. You are worthy of telling your story. And we need to talk about these things more and, you know, make this something that hopefully happens less and less.

[Hannah]

I believe that we can. I do think that all of us possible. I do, I think, yeah, I do. I know it's easy to get into those social media trendy type slogans of like, all men suck and like life sucks. And I think we do have to hold on to the belief that things can get better or else they don't. And obviously if like, you're allowed to have your days where you're like, I hate, I don't want to be on the apps and I never want to date a man again.

[Mackenzie]

Yes, I hate everything. Everything sucks. Yes, that is 100% legit.

[Hannah]

Like, I'm not saying your feelings aren't invalid. I'm just saying that as a whole, we have to stay together and hope for better because we deserve better and we can teach our sons to be better.

[Mackenzie]

It's true. But thank you again, Sandra, for sharing your story. And if you guys have a story you want to share, you need an ear or a platform, please email us. The email address is Investigate the Dating Detectives podcast dot com.

[Hannah]

Nice.

[Mackenzie]

And don't forget the to join, join the Patreon. We have the two tiers now. So it's the five dollar tier where you get two bonus episodes and you know, updates and the the live. We have a book club and there's a live event. Me and Hannah and you can come chat with us. And what else? Like there's a four merch access. Yes, yes. Early access to merch and the nine dollar. The new nine dollar tier will give you all of that and an ad free listening experience. I don't know why I say that all sexily. It just sounds sexy. It's fine.

[Hannah]

It is sexy. I think it is sexy. I think this is a very sexy podcast. I like it at times. Yeah, when appropriate. We love you guys. Let us know all your thoughts and we're here for you.

[Mackenzie]

As always, keep the conversation going on social media and on the Patreon and we love you so much. And as always, trust your femtuition.

[Sandra]

Sam.