The Turkish Rug Pull

Summary

The Dating Detectives – "The Turkish Rug Pull"
Episode Date: January 26, 2026
Hosts: Mackenzie Fultz (Private Investigator) & Hanna Anderson (Comedian)
Guest: Lena

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Episode Overview

In this gripping episode, hosts Mackenzie and Hanna dive into the wild story of Lena, a seasoned solo traveler who becomes entangled in a sophisticated romance and financial scam while celebrating her 50th birthday in Turkey. What starts as an enchanting, movie-worthy adventure quickly devolves into a high-stakes con involving love bombing, slick manipulation, and a supposed "Turkish rug business." Lena’s narrative is both a cautionary tale and an exhilarating account of creative revenge—culminating in a rare ending: she actually gets her money back from the scammers.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Meet Lena: The Adventurous Traveler (02:23 – 04:12)

• Lena introduces herself: Divorced, experienced solo traveler, nearly 40 countries visited, deep appreciation and knowledge of Middle Eastern cultures.
• Chooses Turkey for her milestone 50th birthday, culminating in a dreamy solo adventure and a picturesque photo shoot at dawn.

2. The Meet Cute: From Rug Shop to Romance (06:02 – 17:09)

• After her photo shoot, Lena is approached by a man at a café who brings her to his family’s rug store.
• She meets "Kamal" (the uncle), described as charismatic and larger-than-life, who attempts to sell her a rug with playful banter.
• The real setup unfolds: Kamal introduces Lena—under the guise of matchmaking for his nephews—to "Emil," an extraordinarily attractive and charming younger man.
• Emil invites Lena out for a romantic dinner, handles everything respectfully, impresses her with gentlemanly gestures, and subtly introduces his "business."

"He is bombastic. He is hilarious. He is exactly the type of person that I love to engage with… We just hit it off like two thieves." — Lena (08:34)

3. The Business Proposal and the Trap (23:41 – 43:04)

• Over dinner, Emil tells Lena about the struggling rug business due to tariffs. Uncle wants to use Lena’s U.S. address to ship rugs and "split" the savings.
• The request seems innocuous—just receive some rugs; no mention of large sums.
• The love bombing continues, and Lena, swept up in the romance, is willing to help.
• The next morning, Lena is rushed to the store before her flight; the plan takes a dramatic turn:
  • Uncle pressures her for a $35,000 payment to "buy" the rugs upfront (money she's supposedly to be reimbursed for, plus $10,000 profit).
  • Lena, scared, confused, and under time pressure (with her bags hidden), puts 10% on a credit card and signs a promissory note before escaping to the airport.

"Now my alarms are going off. …He’s absolutely condescending and talking to me like I'm 6 years old… It's crazy how these motherfuckers can feel that. It's just crazy." — Lena (37:03)

4. Psychological Aftermath: Shame and Doubt (54:47 – 56:49)

• Back home, Lena is continually love-bombed by Emil via video chat, with frequent updates and "plans" for the future.
• The façade cracks when his communication grows spotty; she gets suspicious.
• Upon investigating further, Lena discovers the rugs are cheap, the business has no real address, and a nearby shopkeeper warns her that the rug store is known for scams.
• Lena finds a victims’ group on Facebook—several people have been similarly conned, and there’s an ongoing legal effort.
• Lena experiences profound shame, self-blame, and emotional distress.

"I did this to myself. I willingly gave the money. …And that’s the worst part of shame. So I spent the next week in such a dark place." — Lena (54:47)

5. The Revenge Game: Out-Scamming the Scammers (68:12 – 84:44)

• After her attempt to connect with the victims' group founder (who, comically, is in Antarctica), Lena decides to fight back using creative tactics:
  • Orchestrates "black magic" threats using North African friends, unnerving Emil with WhatsApp messages about curses.
  • Demands half her money back in exchange for calling off the “witchcraft”—Emil wires half within two days.
  • Leaves scathing Google reviews about the store throughout the neighborhood and sets up a satirical Instagram account.
  • Later, creates a Grindr profile for Emil (with the store address), further damaging his local reputation.
  • Finally, crafts a viral TikTok campaign tagging the whole scam operation, which gets reposted by one of the scammers’ own relatives, exploding visibility.

"You are fucked. Because I’m divinely protected. …I don’t know if it’ll be today or five years from now, but you’re gonna get yours." — Lena (68:12)

• Under mounting pressure, Emil and the “Kingpin” wire Lena the rest of her money after she threatens reputational ruin and refuses to scrub her online posts until funds are fully cleared.

"I didn’t tell you—it’s Christmas. We’re real busy over here in America… Oh, I didn’t tell you. It’s Boxing Day!" — Lena (84:44)

6. Aftermath: Justice, Guilt & Wisdom (86:28 – End)

• Lena processes survivor’s guilt, knowing other victims in the group will never see their money.
• She shares her experience publicly, emphasizing that even savvy, intelligent women can be manipulated by skilled con artists.
• Urges listeners not to blame themselves and to recognize that love bombing, manipulation, and cultural empathy can all be exploited in cons.

"Sugar and salt look the same. …We need to spend more time on the not blaming ourselves. …When they’re professionals at this, why would you?" — Lena (90:44/91:06)

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Notable Quotes & Moments (Approximate Timestamps)

• On Love Bombing & Scam Tactics:
  • "He is bombastic… just so fun… We just hit it off like two thieves…" — Lena (08:34)
  • "Halfway through the meal he says, ‘I'm sure you make great money at your career… but everybody could use a little bit more…’" — Lena (24:46)
  • "We have some pretty big players in Dallas and New York… Uncle wants to know if we can use your address…" — Emil paraphrased by Lena (25:14)
• On the Trap Closing In:
  • "We just need the $35,000." — Kamal (36:56)
  • "They were going to give you your money back and give you the 10,000?" — Hanna (37:14)
• On Shame and Recovery:
  • "I just immediately start crying. I think that… of course, I couldn't pull in such a good-looking guy." — Lena (54:47)
  • "I willingly gave the money because I'm greedy and I wanted to make ten grand…" — Lena (54:49)
• Creative Revenge:
  • "Black magic. …When your mama gets a chronic cough, that's us." — North African friends via Lena (70:16)
  • "Go brush your teeth. …I got a big old bear coming for you in 20 minutes, and he likes to be subbed, so get ready." — Lena (78:16)
  • "I did an Instagram page… Hi, I'm Emile, and I like to fuck over people for romance scams and financial ones." — Lena (74:18)
• Resolution:
  • "He sends the money… I didn’t tell you, it’s Christmas. …I'll get it tomorrow… Oh, did I forget to tell you? You're a little cunt. I'm never gonna scrub the Internet." — Lena (84:38)
• Reflection:
  • "My heart aches for people who don't have their money back. …There's such survivor's guilt." — Lena (86:45)
  • "Sugar and salt look the same… we need to spend more time not blaming ourselves." — Lena (90:44/91:06)

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Important Segment Timestamps

• Guest intro/Lena’s background: 02:23–04:12
• Meeting Kamal and Emil: 06:32–17:09
• The "business" pitch: 23:41–29:48
• The con revealed & financial shakedown: 34:02–43:04
• Lena discovers the scam: 54:47–56:49
• Retaliation and psychological warfare: 68:12–84:44
• Getting the money back: 82:18–84:44
• Final reflections and advice: 86:45–93:01

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Key Takeaways & Red Flags

• Love bombing and "family" inclusion are hallmark manipulation techniques.
• Fog—Fear, Obligation, Guilt—was heavily used to corner and pressure Lena.
• Time pressure and confusion, unfamiliar cultural context, hidden bags—all disarm and rush a victim into submission.
• Con artists are masterful at targeting strong, educated, independent people by leveraging trust, empathy, and cross-cultural goodwill.
• Shame and self-blame often prevent victims from seeking help or even acknowledging they’ve been scammed.

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Memorable, Main Character Energy

"Lena, you’re a real G." — Lena’s son (94:57)

"Go brush your teeth… I got a big old bear coming for you in 20 minutes, and he likes to be subbed, so get ready." — Lena to Emil (78:16)

"Dark magic got him. And karma’s name was Lena." — Hanna (106:14)

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Final Thoughts

Lena’s story is more than a wild tale of a vacation gone wrong—it’s a playbook of how international romance scammers operate and a rare account of someone using street smarts, humor, and a bit of righteous mischief to outmaneuver the cons. It’s a testament to resilience, self-advocacy, and the power of seeking support and creatively fighting back. The hosts highlight that anyone can be a victim and urge listeners to support others without judgment.

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If you or someone you know is a victim of abuse or a scam, seek support. Trust your instincts, ask for help, and don’t live in shame—gossip and community can truly save lives.

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Podcast Supportive Community:
Share your stories, support one another, and check out The Dating Detectives on TikTok and Instagram for further discussion.

Signature Sign-Off:
"Trust your femtuition."

Transcript

[A]

The following program contains names, places, and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following program is provided for entertainment purposes only, and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances. If you or a loved one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic violence hotline at 1-800-799-7-7-7233 for support.

[B]

Happy dating detectives Monday.

[C]

Yay.

[A]

Hi, Mackenzie. You have the cutest glasses on. They're like hearts. You look so happy.

[C]

Yours is. Aren't they cute?

[B]

They're little prescription glasses. And I was like, oh, my gosh. I had to get these in prescription. They're heart shape. And yeah, my assistant had some and I was like, I want some. And so I copied her.

[A]

If that doesn't sum you up, it's so fun.

[B]

I love them.

[A]

It's honestly a good not to be like, here's a seamless segue. But, like, this story, as crazy and as annoying as it is, you're gonna.

[C]

Leave feeling like hell.

[A]

Yeah. Like, there's rare that we leave feeling super positive, but I'm like, I feel revved up after this one.

[B]

Yeah, you guys are. Today's episode is wild. You're gonna think you know what happens at the end, but hold the phone. Hold your pan. He's on. Because you have no idea. It's just. Wait.

[A]

It's so good. Lena is a really awesome person, an awesome guest. Shout out to Lena's friend who encouraged her to submit her story. Thank you.

[B]

Well, no, she submitted it for her and she said, hey, you don't. These folks are. She's like, I've never heard of the dating detective so high, but I don't know that.

[A]

But it did work out, and I'm happy.

[B]

It was amazing.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I think we should get into it. Shall we?

[A]

I am so excited.

[B]

I am, too. Okay, let's give it to Lena. Okay, so we have Lena with us. And Lena, first of all, thank you for being here and sharing with us, and I would love to give you the floor so you can take us on your journey.

[C]

Sure. Thanks for having me. Let me start by just giving you a little bit of background about myself. I am divorced, and part of my free time is spent traveling internationally, so I have gone extensively around the world as part of my joy and soul. And I've Love. Thank you. I've gone to almost 40 countries and.

[B]

Holy bananas.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And are you a. So a big solo traveler or do you go with friends or both?

[C]

I'd say 50, 50 more solo and good for you. I love it. I want to do this. It's so cool. In recent years, I've spent more time in the Middle east and I've. I've really enjoyed learning about Arab culture and Islam and read the Quran several times. And so that has been very intriguing for me. So I spent my 50th birthday this past October in Turkey because it's this great blend of Asia, Europe, the Middle east, all this stuff. And I thought there's no better way to be for such a milestone birthday than in Turkey. So that's where this story begins. An independent solo traveler celebrating a milestone birthday.

[A]

I wish you weren't here because that sounds like it could be such a wonderful, amazing adventure.

[C]

Oh, and listen, it was. I mean, I had a fantastic time. Turkey is a beautiful country with amazing food and a sultan history with the Ottoman Empire and amazing mosques, beautiful people, a rich history. And it's wonderful until you run into a terrible romance scam.

[A]

Oh, no.

[C]

So I had saved this particular mosque for my birthday because it was just so, so special that I wanted it to be the last thing I visited before I went home. So I saved it for my 50th birthday. And, you know, having traveled extensively, I've got bookcases filled of knickknacks, and I was like, I don't need another tchotchke to dust. So I'm gonna.

[A]

Famous last word.

[C]

I'm gonna book a really fun photo shoot day of my birthday and found this great photographer who has just a myriad of fun, romantic dresses. And you can pick out the one you want, whatever color, whatever style, and meet him at sunrise in front of this mosque.

[B]

Everybody should do that kind of photo shoot just for a me moment.

[C]

Absolutely. You know, and I've recently lost weight, and I'm good for you.

[B]

That's always hard.

[C]

I'm feeling myself. And this mosque is just romance and history and love, and it's just incredible. So I booked this photo shoot. We meet at 5am it's just us and the pigeons and cobblestone, and it's just absolutely the best time. So later I get to my hotel, I change into my everyday clothes, and I am walking toward the mosque and I'm feeling really good. I've got my hair done extra night. My makeup's extra special because I just did this photo shoot. I'm 50 years old. I am living exactly the way I want to live, because, as I said, I'm divorced. My son is doing well. I'm just really content.

[A]

How old is your son?

[C]

He's 20. 20.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

So I'm just feeling just so full of gratitude and love. And I walk toward the mosque, and I hear this man call out to me from a side cafe. Excuse me, are you Turkish? Now, this is not an uncommon event for me at all. I don't know if you agree with this, but given my features. Well, wait a minute. They're not going to see me. This is a podcast. Okay.

[A]

But that's all right. You can describe.

[C]

I'll describe. Okay. So I have olive skin and dark features, and people often think that perhaps I am local until the American accent, of course. And so this was not a red flag for me whatsoever. And I said, no, but, you know, I sure would like to be. This is such a beautiful country. And so we start talking again, not unusual. Turkish folks are incredibly hospitable. I've been there a week. I've spent lots of time with other people on buses, shopkeepers, restaurant people. To sit and talk for a few minutes is not unusual in the least. It's part of the reason I love Mediterranean and Levant countries. So he's like, where are you headed to? And I said, oh, I'm going to the mosque. And he said, can I walk with you for a little bit? I have a friend that owns a store. It's really beautiful. I'd love to show it to you. And you know what? It's my last day there, and I haven't finished any shopping, so. Perfect. So he walks me to the store. It's actually a really beautiful store, and I'm glad to be there. And he immediately takes me upstairs to where the rugs are, which I thought was a little strange. Like, why not just let me browse? But again, I don't think much of it.

[A]

I would just assume he's like a salesperson, totally wants to push a rug on me.

[C]

And it's like, okay, not a big deal. And this is where I meet Kamal. And Kamal is larger than life. He is bombastic. He is hilarious. He is exactly the type of person that I love to engage with. And so we just hit it off like two thieves, which is a very ironic thing to say. Now, so he's sitting on this big leather couch. Like, he's. I want to describe him for you because he's really fun. He's got, like, a turtleneck sweater on with, like, a leather jacket, some gold rings. I mean, he's Just.

[B]

You could stop at the turtleneck and leather jacket and, like, I get it.

[A]

Just a character.

[C]

Yeah, I get it. I feel like he's part of the Godfather. Like, yeah. Just so fun. And he's like, come and sit with me. And I'm like, sure, I'm gonna sit with you. And he brings Turkish tea, which is always what they do. And then he's like, let's have snacks. We're having snacks. He's trying to sell me a rug. I'm like, I'm not buying a rug. And he's like, yeah, you are. And I said, sure, try to sell me a rug. It's not gonna happen. And we're just, like, roasting each other and why aren't you buying a rug? I said, because I've been all over the world. I got enough rugs. But he's like, but you've never had a Turkish rug. And I go, and I never will. I mean, we're just like. Like the flirting and negging. Yeah, it totally is. Like, it's really great. I'm holding my own. You can tell he's not used to this because this is not their culture where a woman is pushing back, you know, like, this is really fun for me. And he says as much. He goes, you know, women don't normally talk to me like this. And I said, well, I'm not. Most women, like, we're just like, totally. Yeah. We're just giving it to each other. But it's with great humor. Right. It's a lot of fun. And this is exactly my style of communication. Right? The. You called it nagging. Yeah, the negging.

[A]

People give that a.

[C]

Bad.

[A]

For people that don't know, negging is, like, when you flirt by, like, teasing.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

And it can be really bad because it can be like someone trying to cut you down. But I. There's a level of it that's just funny.

[C]

It was like, look, I'm not buying a rug. I came to shop. I thought I was going to look at, like, tchotchkes downstairs. But, you know, I get it. You think I have money. I don't have money. I travel too much. Ask my credit card. I don't have money. So we're interacting. It's great. We probably spend an hour together, but it's fine because it's early in the morning. And so I. I was like, seriously, I'm not buying a rug. And he goes, okay, go downstairs and see if you like anything down there. And I did. I clocked a few things. I Was like, no problem.

[B]

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[A]

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[B]

I love Baked by Melissa. They're so good.

[A]

Tell us about it. Why do you love it?

[B]

Okay, well, I have to tell you, someone very close to me was like, I have a new management position. I need to cater to like a hundred people that I work with and I need to feed this many people snacks and usually it's like donuts or bagels and I was like, baked by Melissa. Sure enough, they were a hit. They got the cupcakes and they were so good and I got sent a picture of the the box that they came in like after they were devoured And I was like, that looks like.

[C]

They were really, really good.

[B]

Yeah, it was really cool. I felt like such a hero.

[A]

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[C]

So we go downstairs and I'm looking at Pashmina's and he points to a couple of guys downstairs and he says, see that guy in the corner? That's my nephew. And he totally looks like they could be related. And he says, do you think he's handsome? I said, yeah, sure. And he goes, well, he's married. You can't have him. Okay? I don't want him. Come on. Like, I'm not here to fall in love. I'm here to go to the palace. What the fuck, you know? And I said as much. And again, the roasting is continuing, right? And then he says, see this other guy, also my nephew, he's also married. You can't have him. And we're just, you know, being silly. And then he pulls out his phone and he shows me a picture and he says, do you like this one? And I said, I, I like this Pashmina. Like, what the hell? And this guy on the phone is stupid good looking. I mean, like I was just, oh, lord. He says, this is my other nephew and he's available. And I'm like, are you? I've. I said, are you his pimp? Like, what the fuck?

[A]

Literally, he went from selling rugs to selling his nephews.

[C]

So he goes, oh, don't be crass. I'm just telling you. I said, well, I'm here for the mosque. How much is this Pashmita? Like I'm trying to get us back on track because I don't. It's my last day. I'm not into this. And then he yells out his name. He's like, Emile. Emil, come meet Lena. She's hilarious. So I'm getting a little on my heels, and then this man, this Turkish God of a man comes around the corner. I was done. I was done. Like, I don't know. I've never seen a man look like this. It was a lot like, he.

[B]

Like, sexy.

[C]

Yes. Just. Okay, y' all, imagine.

[B]

Yeah, I get it. Tall, dark, and handsome, probably.

[C]

For real? Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, just. And did he have, like, a charisma, too?

[C]

Oh, so much Riz. I mean, I was sunk. I was done for. And I'm not really that twin. A painted. Like, I'm pretty logical, but I was done. And then Kamal is like, emil, it's Lena's birthday today. And he was like, well, I won't ask you how old you are, because you're timeless. I mean, I was like, oh, my God. For real? For real. And, I mean, normally I would roll my eyes, but you did not see this man. It was crazy. I was like, stupidified.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And that's real. Yeah, it was. We all been there.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Too much. And he's like, so, what are you doing for your birthday? And I said, oh, I'm just.

[A]

I'm buying any rug you try to sell me.

[C]

I don't know.

[A]

I'll take anything.

[B]

Right.

[C]

So I just go. Go into the mosque. And he's like. And then going to lunch. Like, I was. I'm dead. I know. And then he's like, I think I should take you to dinner.

[A]

Aw.

[C]

And I was like, oh, no, that's fine. It's good. Everything? No.

[B]

Just fine. Probably not.

[C]

No. Like, I'll just. I'll just have crackers or something. Like, I go, what were you thinking? And he's like, there's this really beautiful fish restaurant. It's just gorgeous. It's very romantic. And I was like, is it nice? And he goes, it's so nice. And the dress I was wearing was like this little. It was long, and it was, like, modest, but it was cotton. And I said, oh, this is my nicest dress. And he says, oh, it's not a problem. I'll have my driver take you shopping. And it's on me.

[A]

This sounds like an episode of Sex and the City. Yes. This is something Samantha would get into.

[B]

Yes, a hundred percent.

[C]

And I was like, what? And then he was like, but here's the thing, Lena. It's fine either way. This is what I want to do. I want to give you my number, and you go to the mosque and you decide what's right for you. I was so impressed by the politeness, the respect, the non pressure. Like, I loved it. So I said, that sounds really good. Thank you. So I bought the pashmina, I took his number, and then I'm gonna make my way to the mosque. And then right at that moment, the call to prayer begins. And that is with. The call to prayer is five times a day in Islam. And so it comes over the loudspeaker so the public knows when to begin. And he says to me, oh, you know, Lena, you can't go to the mosque right now because they're closed for prayer. And I'm thinking, no, they're not. Like, this is a public mosque. They're not closed to prayer. I researched this, but I don't say this out loud just in case I'm wrong. I mean, he lives there. He would know. And he's like, so why don't you. Why don't you stay and talk to me a little bit longer? Oh, well, they're closed for prayer. And I'm like, oh, okay, sure. So we do. And he is a total gentleman and continues to ask me questions and get me more emotionally hooked on him and just investing and being lovely and wants to know everything about me. So we're done talking. I decide to go to the mosque. And of course, the mosque is amazing. And I'm just feeling really happy. I had this beautiful photo shoot. I had fun banter with Uncle. There's a hot guy that wants to take me out for my birthday dinner. I bought a beautiful pashmina. Now I'm in this, like, legendary mosque that's been around for hundreds of centuries. I mean, come on, this is a perfect day. It's a perfect day. And, you know, I woke up that morning saying the same mantra I've been saying for years, which is, God, show me how good it can be. So he did, right? He did.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

But it gets even better. I exit the mosque, and every mosque has a beautiful outdoor courtyard. I mean, just the mosaic tiling the water fountain, and the courtyard looks up to the sky. I'm just sitting there, just having so much gratitude. And then all of a sudden, a bird poops on the top of my hijab. And if you know anything about signs, that is. I was gonna say good sign.

[B]

I know that's a good sign.

[A]

It's like, good luck, right?

[C]

It's good luck. There's a scene in under the Tuscan sun where Diane Lane's character is trying to buy a villa in Tuscany. She doesn't have enough money. There's other people trying to buy the villa at the same time. She has the lowest offer. And so she says, okay, I get it. You probably want to sell to the highest bidder, no problem. And as she's leaving, a bird poops on her head. And the owner of the villa says, I'm going to sell it to you because it's good luck. And so as soon as this happens, I think of that scene. I think of how he's half Italian. I'm just like, oh, my God, this is my rom com. Yeah, that's exactly what I thought. I was like, I asked God to show me how good it can be, and I am literally in a rom com. I was in a gorgeous red dress this morning. Now a bird has pooped on me. Like, who's gonna do the soundtrack? This is amazing.

[A]

Main character energy.

[C]

Yeah, I'm just like, I'm gonna say yes to this date for sure. And I walk outside, and he's right there on the bench waiting for me. And, yeah, that was. I was like, okay. Stage five Clinger vibes, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Both of our faces were just kind of like, okay.

[C]

So I walk over to him and I go, emile, what you doing? And he goes, you're not familiar with the neighborhood, and I just want to make sure that you had what you needed, if you needed directions, if you needed to wait.

[B]

Emil is his real name or his fake name, Right?

[C]

Yeah. Okay. Sorry. Yeah, real name is.

[A]

Why is my first thought, like, do you have a job? Like, why are you, like, able to hang out and just, like, around a person?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Do you know what he does for a living?

[C]

Yeah, the job is the store.

[A]

Okay, so that makes sense.

[C]

Yeah. So very flexible there. And the store is right by the mosque.

[A]

Okay. Okay.

[C]

So it's fine. It's fine.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I mean, at first I was like, why are you here? And then he goes, I just want to make sure. Like, if you need directions. You said you had some shopping to do. Do you need. And so it kind of added up for me. And I said, oh, no, I'm good. And then he was like, do you want to spend the day together? Do you want to do anything? And I. I didn't. Like, I. You know, I didn't. I mean, I like to solo travel. I love it. Yeah, I had some. And he wasn't weird about it. He was like, okay, cool. And I was like, but I do want to go to dinner. And he was like, that's great. And so I, you know, gave him the address of my hotel and we agreed on a time, and that was it. So I was really excited for this date. I mean, I FaceTimed. My sister told her everything about it.

[A]

She was like, I love that. Both for the gabbing and for letting someone know what you want.

[C]

Yeah. I just was so excited. And she's like, have a wonderful time. You deserve this. And he was so respectful. He was running a little bit late, I mean, five minutes, and texted me, I'm running. I know. He gets there. So respectful. The date was wonderful. The banter was good. It was just. I don't know, it was just all good. Halfway through the meal, he says, I'm sure you make great money at your career. And I said, I do, I do. Okay. He goes, you know, but everybody could use a little bit more. Okay, sure. He says, my uncle was really taken with you. And I said, yeah. I mean, I enjoyed getting to know him too. And he says, the tariffs with your president have been really hard on our business. And we have so many investors in America that really rely on our Turkish rugs. And, you know, they're very expensive. They're made of silk, they're hand done, and it's just been so challenging to continue to sell them at the rate that we do with these tariffs. And I was like, okay. And he goes, so my uncle wanted to talk to you about getting involved in the business.

[A]

And you're like, is this a date or an interview?

[C]

So he's like, we have some pretty big players in Dallas and New York, and they buy huge quantities of rugs at a time, either for wholesale or for their penthouses. Sometimes they want to exchange rugs when they move to bigger houses, but the tariffs are, like, really hurting our business. So uncle wants to know if we can use your address to send the rugs to save on tariffs, and we'll split the tariff money with you. And I'm like, oh, okay, so what do I need to do? And he's like, you just need to receive the rugs. And I was like, okay. And he's like, and then in about six to eight weeks, we'll be there to pick them up. And this is what got me. I. He says, and if we want to spend more time together, we can walk.

[A]

Me through the thoughts in your head as you're hearing this.

[C]

Yeah, I'm totally on board. I mean, I would love to make some money and I would love to see this guy.

[B]

You never had any thoughts about it being a scam right now?

[C]

No, God, no. God.

[B]

You're like, this guy's Nice.

[A]

Well, he hasn't asked you for money. The only thing he's asked you for is like your personal address.

[C]

That's right. That's right. He's.

[A]

That's.

[C]

He's only asked me to send rugs.

[A]

Or to receive rugs.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

You don't have to.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And again, I don't know anything about tariffs, so it has not. Who does. Yeah, yeah. So like, now that the whole thing's over, I'm like, wait, you still have to pay tariffs when you.

[A]

Yeah, that's. I was thinking, I was like, I'm trying to understand how it saves him money. I guess if you're directly send.

[C]

I still go over this and I'm like, how the. Did he explain it again? I don't know, but he did. He's saying, we're gonna do the paperwork in the store that alleviates the tariffs and then we use your address. So we just need to have you receive them. Then we're going to pick them up in six weeks and then we're going to give you about $10,000 in tariff money saved that you'll receive in about eight weeks. When we come to.

[A]

I'm glad you shared the amount because that's a lot of money that would make anyone.

[B]

I can see why you'd be like, oh, yeah, that's cool.

[C]

Yeah. And he pulls out his phone and he's on WhatsApp and he's showing me all these buyers with penthouses with beautiful mansions, with rugs. And I have no reason to doubt this guy. It looks so legit. And then he spends a couple of minutes during the dinner afterward saying, I, I'm sorry to, you know, be obtuse, but I need to contact some of my clients. It's an 11 hour difference. So we're having dinner, but it's like 10am in New York and he needs to update the clients on where their rugs are. All seems legit to me.

[B]

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[A]

This episode is about scamming. A lot of our episodes are, and I feel like scams online are getting crazier and crazier. Mackenzie, can you tell us from your expertise as a PI how something like delete me could help someone protect themselves?

[B]

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[A]

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[C]

So now that I've agreed to this, dinner's wrapping up and we know that we're going to see each other again in eight weeks. And so things are getting kind of personal. And he's like, do you want to spend the night alone or do you want to stay together? And normally I would not do this. Right. So I was like, well, of course I want to be with you because I'm going to see you again. If I was never going to see him again, I'd be like, thanks for dinner, you know?

[A]

Right.

[B]

But you're like, no, I. I would enjoy spending more time with this person.

[C]

Yeah, we're starting something here. This is great. He had also told me the way that he had learned English so well is because he had an American girlfriend for nine years. So I think, okay, you've had this girlfriend, you visited her regularly with the rug exchange. I'm gonna be the next one. Like, I was excited.

[A]

So you're thinking maybe this could turn into something.

[C]

Yes. And. And honestly, I told you, I don't really care for American men anymore and I don't want a full time boyfriend. I don't need somebody in my space. Having somebody across the world that I see a few times a year and maybe travel with sounds delightful.

[A]

I get that. I get that. And I mean, he had seemed like he had a decent living. Had a driver pick you up. It's like, this could be a nice companion.

[C]

Absolutely. Yeah. So I check out of my little boutique hotel and he takes me to this like five star situation and he carries my bags and he pays for it. And we check into the room and he says, when you get situated, go ahead and look out the window. And I'm like, okay. So I get my pajamas on and brush my teeth and I look out the window and it is this killer view of the mosque.

[A]

Aw.

[C]

Beautiful.

[A]

I love this. And I love a five star hotel.

[C]

So we had a romantic evening and the next morning I was getting ready for my flight and he was sleeping in. And honestly, I was just like, I guess we're not going to do the business thing. And honestly, I don't care either way because he was really sleeping in. And then all of a sudden his alarm goes off and he's like, are you, are you ready to go? Like, are your bags packed? We need to go see Uncle. Like, he's got breakfast ready for us. And I was like, okay. But, like, I got.

[A]

Are you ready to go sleepy?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Right?

[C]

But I was like, I've really got to make this flight on time. So what time should I be at the airport? I don't know how busy it's going to be. He's like, it's not going to be that busy. It's not going to be that busy. It's. It's. It's October. It's not that busy. But, like, we have to go to the store. Uncle's waiting for us. And he's like, really, really, really rushed. But again, I was like, well, then why the Are we so late? I gotta.

[B]

Right?

[C]

You know, gotta get at the airport. So we get there, and Uncle's got this beautiful, huge breakfast. It's great. And he's like, how was dinner? Was Emile a gentleman? And I said, he was a total gentleman, and we had a great time. Good, good. And then I should add that, like, as soon as we came into the store, I don't know where my bags went. I mean, he was carrying them, which was nice. But I remember thinking, where are my bags? And I asked. And he was like, don't worry, I have them. But I was like, oh, okay, that's not what I asked. And then we went upstairs to the rug room. And almost as soon as Emile had a little bit of breakfast and coffee, he left. And I remember thinking, that's super weird because we just had this date and this night together, and I'm about to.

[A]

Did he say goodbye?

[C]

No, he just left the room.

[B]

I'm sorry.

[C]

Yeah, he just left the room. I thought he was, like, going to the bathroom or something, because why wouldn't you say goodbye? And I'm left with Uncle. And then uncle is like. So Emile talked to you about the business deal? And I said, oh, yeah. He said, because, you know, we really trust you. We really want you to be a part of the family. And we've had other people in the past screw us over, and we wouldn't want that. And I was like, now my. Now my alarms are going off. I said, what do you mean, screw you over? Well, we. We had someone in New York that we sent the rugs to. Very, very expensive rugs. And they didn't answer the door when we came. Oh. And I said, oh, I'm sorry to hear that. How terrible.

[A]

So now they're the victims?

[C]

Yeah, exactly. And I said, why do you think that happened? And he immediately gets pissed off. He goes, don't talk to me like that.

[B]

Oh, oh, oh, Bl. Okay, well, you're like, what happened yesterday?

[C]

Yeah, and it's that. It's that vibe of like, no woman talks to a man like that. And I said, I said, kamal, I. I'm simply curious as to why you think this business deal went south. I. I'm simply curious. I says, lena, I don't want to talk about this. It doesn't matter. It's in the past. And so he's like, are you going to do this with us? Because, you know, it'd be great to help you make $10,000. And then, you know, we split it and the stuff. And I'm like, sure, that's fine. I mean, you can use my address. And he says, okay, so we just need the 35, 000.

[B]

I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

[A]

Dollars?

[C]

Yes. Not Turkish lira. Dollars.

[A]

And I said 35, 000.

[B]

Wait, from you?

[C]

Yes.

[A]

000.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

And they were going to give you your money back and give you the 10,000.

[C]

Correct.

[B]

Did they say that before? Did I know?

[C]

No, that was not set at the restaurant.

[B]

I did not think so.

[A]

I was. This is new information.

[C]

I would have never come back to the store. Never.

[B]

No, because. Did you have money like that? Just chill. Yeah, no, no, they wanted you to get it.

[C]

Okay. So I said, excuse me. And he goes, yeah, well, you have to buy the rugs, Lena. I mean, why do you think this works? And he's just absolutely condescending and talking to me like I'm 6 years old and this is kind of one of my core wounds to be perceived as not intelligent. And it's crazy how these motherfuckers can feel that. It's just crazy. Like, pray. I don't know how they do it. It's wild.

[B]

Yuck.

[C]

And I. I said, well, that wasn't discussed at the restaurant. And he says, of course it was. Of course it was.

[A]

Oh my God, what a gaslighter.

[C]

My nephew has worked for me my whole life. And I'm thinking to myself, was it. I mean, I didn't drink anything at the.

[B]

Question yourself.

[C]

Oh, yeah. I mean, here's the problem with culture is that you go out of your way to bend to culture so that you're not perceived as rude. And I love to learn about culture. I mean, I love it. But it also makes you a massive target to be empathetic to culture, you know?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

It can be anything from learning. Hey, when somebody offers you food, you never say no, even if you're just going to have a few bites, Right? Could Be something as, like, sweet as that, right? All the way to. Of course we asked you for $35,000, you dumbass. Duh, Right?

[B]

That's normal.

[C]

Duh, right? Now, if an American had said that to me, I'd say, get fucked, you gaslighter, narcissist pig. But when a Turkish businessman who says, you're like family says that, you think, have I offended this man without knowing.

[A]

It, Were you scared at all?

[C]

100%. And it gets worse. 100%.

[B]

Oh, God.

[C]

Because my flight's leaving. I don't know where my bags are. Yeah, where is it?

[A]

Camille?

[C]

And I have to make this flight, y'. All. I have to make this flight because as much as I love my employer, I really test boundaries with her on how much time I'm away. Like, she's an amazing boss.

[B]

So you're like, no, I need to get back.

[C]

Yeah. Like, there's just no part of me that can be like, oh, I got hung up with the Turkish mafia and I'm gonna be late to work. I'm a mental health therapist in a hospital, so not showing up for work is, like, not possible. So, yes. He's like, of course. He said 35k. How else would this work, Lena? And I'm like, again, kind of making me feel like, you know, I. I can't help you if you're a dumbass. And I go, I don't know. I don't know how. How else it would work. I go, but I don't have 35K. And he's like, well, why not? I mean, you're a therapist. You. You work in America. Don't you make good money? And now I'm defending myself. I said, I make good money, but I also am divorced, and my son has a music career that I try to support. And, you know, money like, that is.

[A]

You did.

[C]

It's like, I don't know.

[A]

35,000 in rug money.

[C]

I know that's. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But when you're scared, like, you find yourself saying stupid stuff. And again, if this had been in America, I probably would have flipped the T table and said, get. But it's happening in a. A brand new country. And so I just. I. I panicked. I just panicked. He. I needed to get on that flight, and so I said, I guess I could get it from my 401k.

[B]

No.

[C]

I did. And then he, like, hugged me, and he was like, that a girl. So I put 10% down on my credit card and did a promissory note to wire the rest and got the fuck out of there, and I know it.

[A]

So you didn't, like, take it all out in that moment?

[C]

No, no. I also didn't change my mind when I got home. I mean, it like, the love bombing resumed as soon as I got to the airport. You know, I mean, I came downstairs and got my bags and was like, emil, where the fuck were you? And he was like, oh, you know, uncle just prefers to do business alone. And I was like, I don't prefer to do business alone.

[B]

Yeah, you're who I feel with. Yeah.

[C]

And he was like, but I also needed to work the store. We just got busy with customers, and, I mean, it kind of made sense. So he was getting me into the taxi, and he was really romantic, and he was like, babe, I'm so sorry if that was awkward for you. I just, you know, that's how he likes to do business, so it's really clear what everybody's expectations are. And I was like, okay, well, I didn't love that. And he was like, I'm so sorry, babe, and, you know, kissed my teeth. It totally. And here's the thing about love bombing is I. I've listened to your podcast enough to know that, like, a lot of people are like, it's the biggest red flag of all. Okay, I get it. I do. I really. But it feels so damn good. But here's. I. I wasn't gonna say that I agree with that sentiment.

[A]

We're both like, we love being love bombed.

[C]

Yes, I do agree that it feels good. But the other problem with love bombing is I have really high self esteem. Like, I. I just.

[B]

Good for you, first of all.

[C]

Thank you. But I just really. That's the beauty of being 50 is like. Yeah, it's like you don't give a fuck anymore. I. You don't. And I don't know what that is about aging, but you're just kind of like, love me or hate me, this is like, who I am.

[B]

Bye.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And when they're obsessed with you, you're like, yeah, I get it.

[C]

That's exactly right. So when somebody love bombs you, you're like, well, I'm glad you see it too.

[B]

Great.

[C]

Yeah. And so there's a lot of judgment from people who are not 50 who are like, how could you not see it? And so when I describe this, and I'm like, this man was like a God in his physical looks. Yeah, I'm not that same level. But also, I bring other things to balance it out. Right. Like, I'm funny and I'm well traveled and I understand world religions and so I just feel like, yeah, it kind of balances it out.

[B]

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[C]

So I go home and Emile is like fucking consistent on the communication. Like he doesn't ever want to text. He always wants to video chat because, you know, I'm just so beautiful. And we video chat like three to four times a day. He's always asking about me and my son and work and Even with the 11 hour time difference, he's staying up late to make sure that he talks to me. He's getting up early. Like he's just great. He's great.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

So he is telling me how excited he is to see me soon and what kind of activities are we going to do in my hometown and do I want to go to Italy in the spring and oh yeah, like that's my love language. Let's travel together. Like that's amazing. So it's great. I feel really good about all this and Then this is how I crack the case. This is so crazy. He got a cold. He got a cold. And he stopped communicating consistently. And it annoyed me. I was like, so because he got a cold? Yeah, he stopped commit. Like, he missed a couple of video chats. And I was like, hey, what's going on? Are you busy? And he was in the countryside visiting his parents. And I was like, well, you're not busy with work. Like, he had been showing me the countryside and how relaxed he was. And he was doing that to visit his parents because he was going to be on this long road trip in the US and so he wanted to spend time with them before he came out. And I was like, oh, that's so great. You're so connected with your family. And then he just kind of dropped off. I mean, not ghosting me, but, like, the communication fell apart by, like, at least half. And it annoyed me. I was like, listen, if you've lost interest in me, that's fine, but we still gotta stay tethered because of this business deal.

[A]

Had you wired the remaining.

[C]

Oh, yeah, okay. And he says, babe, what are you talking about? And I said, I just noticed you're pulling back and you're not really asking me about my days anymore, and I don't love that, so if you've lost interest, that's fine. I'm not for everybody. But we're gonna stay tethered because guys owe me $45,000, so stay in touch. And he was like, babe, what? Like, why are you being insecure? Everything's fine. I was like, again, your communication style is not good. And he goes, I have a cold. And he did. He had a cold. You could hear it. But I was like, you can still text. Yeah, you can send me some dumb reel.

[A]

I mean, you could still say, hey, I'm having dinner with my parents tonight, and I'm not going to be on my phone as much. Totally not hard.

[C]

Totally. And there was just no accountability, and I really did not love it. And I got annoyed and I told him, and he sent the uncle to call me. So I get this. I've never video chatted with the uncle before. He calls me on video chat and he's like, why are you upset with Emile? And I said, first of all, this is none of your business. I'm upset with him because we're not talking as much. But again, I'm gonna figure that out with him. Why am I talking to you? And he says, don't talk to me like that, Lena. And I said, like, why Are you calling me? This isn't about you. You're not in our relationship. And he says, well, I just want you to know I've talked with him too, and he really does have a cold. And I said that was not in dispute. I know he has a cold. I know. I'm getting off the phone now. This is crazy. And that's when I knew something was real up. They were just overselling it.

[A]

Yeah. So also, yeah, nobody mentioned doubting the cold, right? So when they say, like, no, he really has a cold now I'm like, okay, I didn't think that, but now I think maybe he doesn't.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. Now my spidey senses are like, why do you guys care so much that I'm losing interest in this relationship? You're just over compensating that. I'm irritated. So at this point, the rugs have arrived, and I'm starting to doubt. I know it's a small thing, but I, like, as a therapist, I'm just doubting all of this now. Why are you so strange about the cold? So I tear into the rugs, and I'm expecting to find these extremely expensive silk rugs. And these rugs look like they're from ikea. And they smell like ikea. Yeah. And they smell like cigarette smoke.

[A]

No.

[C]

And then I open up the paperwork that I filled out in the store, you know, right before my flight when it was all fast. And I never opened it. Never had a reason to. Okay. So I signed this quick piece of paper, like, you know, saying I'm going to fire this money later. And he folds it up, puts it in an envelope. I never opened it again. Okay. I open up that piece of paper. There's no store name on the paper. Like, it's. It's. It's like blank letterhead. Like, not a real business letterhead, just fake stationary kind of thing. And I'm like, oh, my gosh. What? What the fuck is this? I go to the label for the rugs. There's no business name on it. I'm like, what?

[B]

So what's on it?

[C]

Just a address. Just an address. I reverse Google Map the address. I cannot find the business name. I'm like, oh, my gosh. Like, it's not on Google Maps. This business doesn't exist. Then I remember I bought a sweater from a storefront about eight stores up from the shop earlier in the week. Like, thank God I bought this sweater. And true Turkish hospitality. We were talking for like an hour, having tea, because he's a real person with good intentions. And we became Instagram friends. And so I DM him and I said, hey, how's it going? Love my sweater. Also, can you tell me the name of the store? It's like, you know, eight stores down. And I described what it looked like, and he wrote me back almost instantly. And he said, please tell me you didn't shop there. No, they're known scam artists. They're known hustlers. Didn't I tell you not to go there? And I said, oh, no, you didn't. And he's like, I'm so sorry. Did you buy anything? And I was like a pashmina. I just couldn't tell him the rest.

[A]

Yeah, but. But okay, so when you see him, say, wait, please tell me you didn't go there. Did you know immediately or were you still like, no, this is fine. Doubting it.

[C]

I thought he was gonna say something like, oh, the gold there is like, not real gold. It's like gold plated. I didn't know what he was gonna say. I thought he'd say something like that, you know, I mean, he doesn't know about this tariff thing. I thought he was gonna say something like that. So I just said, oh, okay, yeah, no, I mean, I just bought a scarf, but thanks. Can you tell me the name of the store, please? And he tells me the name and I go, cool, yeah, hope you're doing well. Talk to you later. And then I go to Google to look up the name. And the only thing that exists, right, because they don't have a website. They're not real. The only thing that exists is a Facebook group that one of the victims put together that says, if you've been scammed, here's the group of victims. And we have a lawyer in the country fighting for our rights, and there's a whole group of us and get in touch with me immediately. And I.

[A]

So now what? What goes through your head then?

[C]

Oh, I'm gonna be sick. I can't believe I just fucked myself. How could I be so stupid? No, I mean, I just immediately start crying. I think that, like, yeah, there's a part of you that's just like, of course I couldn't pull in such a good looking guy.

[B]

Oh, girl, I know that feeling.

[C]

Oh, man, it's so confusing. It's so confusing. And then, yeah, you just feel like you brought this on yourself. Like, I just immediately was like, I did this to myself. I willingly gave the money because I'm greedy and I wanted to make ten grand and I just fucked Myself not. They did this to me. They're horrible people. And that's the worst part of shame. So I spent the next week in such a dark place.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

I love that you guys do this podcast to help people not live there. Like, what a service.

[A]

It's because of you guys.

[C]

So I immediately contact the administrator of this group because it's a private group. And she's put out her email and her phone, and I text her, I Facebook messenger. I called her, I emailed her, I sent a carrier pigeon. She did not respond to me. And I was like, what the fuck, bitch? Like, I'm out here dying. And then the next day, I did it all again. I sent a smoke signal, I texted her. I mean, nothing. Third day, I was like, oh, my God. Like, I. I need to talk about this. I can't tell anybody but her. And she's not getting back to me. What cunt. I was livid. I was like, you're asking for victims to come forward, and you're not responding. Responding.

[A]

And was the Facebook group private? Like, could you get into it without her responding and approving you?

[C]

I could not. So I couldn't reach any other victims. Yeah, I needed her and her only. And I was just like, this is cruel. This is so cruel to not get back to me. And it says, contact me 24 7. I'm like, I'm doing that.

[B]

I am.

[C]

And her area code is in my state, the state I live in. So I'm like, there's not a time difference. How dare you? And so it was the third day, and I haven't drank in years. I just decided for mental health and brain health, I'm just not going to drink anymore. I fucking got back into that whiskey. And so, like, I'm not eating. I'm not sleeping. I'm drinking whiskey again. I was like, so crashing out, and she's not getting back to me on the fourth day of not. And I'm still every day repeating all the texting, calling, Facebook messenger, email. Fourth day, I've decided they've probably killed her. I mean, I know that sounds crazy, but, like, when you're not sleeping.

[B]

No, that'd be me, too.

[A]

It doesn't sound crazy to me at all. You don't know the extent of this.

[C]

Yeah, I've decided, like, that. I don't know when this Facebook group got updated. If it's been like, I've decided they've probably killed her. I have probably stepped in with the Turkish mafia. They have killed her. There's no other explanation. Of why she's not getting back to me. I'm so fucked. I should just be glad that I got of that office alive and made my flight. Alhamdulillah. I'll just leave it there, right? So the fifth day, Lily gets back to me. She finally called.

[A]

Is that her fake name?

[C]

Yeah. Okay, great. Lily finally calls me back and I am like. I'm like a little tipsy when she calls. So I'm like, where have you been? What? What the. And she says an answer. In my wildest dreams, I could have never imagined. And you know, I'm a mental health therapist. 29 years I've heard it all this says, I'm so sorry. I'm just getting now back to you. I've been in Antarctica and the WI fi is spotty.

[A]

At that point, I'm like, everyone's scamming everyone.

[C]

Nothing is real. I know. Was she really in Antarctica? Am I in the Truman Show? What's happening?

[A]

I'm like, you better FaceTime me with a penguin now.

[B]

You better give a word a hundred percent. Be in an igloo with your goose down parker. And a snow boots and a painting. Proof.

[C]

She sent me a picture because I was losing my mind. I was like, of all the scenarios, you being on the seventh continent never crossed my goddamn mind. Lily, what the fuck?

[A]

I'm obsessed. That, like, in this state, I know it's probably the worst state of your life, but you still were calling as if you guys were like, friends already, right? Even in, like, if you called me and I was in her shoes, I would still love you immediately.

[C]

Oh, thank you.

[A]

Even if you were like, where the fuck were you?

[C]

I did. I.

[A]

Well, I get it.

[C]

It's also the whiskey talking. And then she's. She's very gregarious. She's like, I really don't have a lot of time to talk. The WI fi is super spotty. And I'm like, apparently, Lily, Apparently. And I was like, are we involved in the same scam? She's like, yeah, the tariff scam. And I was like, oh, my God. She goes, yeah, sorry. I hope you didn't sleep with them. I'm like, oh, my God, Lily, that's not the most important thing right now. And she said. She's like. She's like, yeah, you're never gonna see your money again. It's been two years for me and I. We have a lawyer. And I'm so sorry this happened to you. You sound so nice. We'll have to get together for lunch. Since we're in the same state. No big deal. Yeah. And she goes, anyway, I'm really sorry. I'm praying for you. Gotta go see these emperor penguins. Bye. And I was like, oh, my God. I. Here. Like, she could only talk for, like, three minutes. And then I was left with my whiskey bottle again. I was like, I. What? Like, what just happened? Truly.

[A]

Did she give you the lawyer's info or anything?

[C]

She said she would email it to me. Yeah.

[A]

So when she gets back later.

[C]

Yeah, so.

[A]

Oh, I don't even know what I would do.

[C]

It was wild. It. It helped me, but only minimally.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, are you hearing from them at all? The uncle and Emil?

[C]

So just a little bit. I mean, he's just like, babe, like, don't be mad. I have a cold, you know? So, like. And. And here's the thing. I decided that I wasn't gonna show my cards. One, in case I was wrong, and two, in case I was right. I didn't. I didn't have a strategy yet.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, what's my strategy? Just to go ballistic? Like, just crash out and be an angry woman. If they're scam artists, they don't give a shit.

[B]

They don't give a crap.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I'll just move on to the next. They don't care.

[C]

Right. So now that it's confirmed, I just, like, yeah, I was in a weird place, and I just got up. I was like, I have to go to work every day. That's my goal, to go to work every day, have some grounding. So I went to work every day, tried not to drink too much. I wasn't sleeping. And on her Facebook page, once she approved my joining the group, I was able to see that they have changed their name, like, once every two years. As soon as they get in too much heat, they change the name of the business. Oh. So it's gone through many evolutions. That's why they're never on the Internet. And so she's got all kinds of pictures of various players, some I recognize from the store, you know, the other nephews that were married, etc. So it all just came crashing down. Like, wow, this is. This really happened to me. So I mentioned this to Emile, and he's like, oh, Lily, she's just a disgruntled customer. We tried to give her a refund and exchange her rugs, and she's just still salty about it. And we had to change our name because she. She got online and just ruined our reputation. Okay, so why did you have to change it? Like, four times, though. We haven't changed our. We haven't changed our name four times. It's just been the one time after she got heated and went online and attacked us. So much. So, you know, that was a dead end because he didn't want to discuss it. And then uncle started calling me, and it sounds like you want to discuss Lily. Okay, again, not with you. Not with you. Like, this is between Emilia and I. Y' all gotta. We're not in a throuple. Get the out. So he was like, lena, you are really making things difficult for when we get there. And we just want to do business and make money and go out to dinner and be like family, and you're really being disrespectful. So he's kind of pushing that culture. That's important to me.

[A]

You're questioning him?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

How dare you?

[C]

And I guilt on you. I say, well, I don't do business with mobsters. What? And now he's pissed, right? Because again, we're always on video chat.

[A]

Told him what he does.

[C]

Yeah. Now we're on video chat. And he's like, don't you dare talk to me like that. And I'm like, oh. I go. And internally, I'm like, oh, my God, I found the chink in the armor, right?

[B]

You did.

[C]

I go, well, wait a minute. Am I. Am I wrong? Or maybe you'd prefer if I called you a pimp, because you pimp out your nephew all the time. But let me tell you, he's got to work on his A game because that really felt like gay sex to me. And now he's just come undone. He's come undone. Don't you dare. And I was like, listen, listen. You tell me where I'm wrong. Okay, you want to talk? Let's talk. Where am I wrong? Getting some real serious gay vibes off him. So definitely need to work on your A game. I mean, I can. I can talk to you about it, or I can talk to Emil about it, but.

[A]

The scam has a crash.

[C]

Oh, yeah. And so, you know, with the narcissist images, everything.

[B]

A hundred percent. Yep.

[C]

And. And he is, like, taking this bait. He's like, don't you dare. But to this day, I'm like, why did you even talk to me? Like, you've got my money. You should have just hung up on me and blocked me and whatever. But, like, I think that. I guess maybe they just want to keep a good reputation so they can find more victims. I don't know, but maybe there was.

[A]

More to the scam. Once they keep. They could. There's a way to keep it going, maybe. Yeah, they can get more out of you.

[C]

I don't know. I don't know. But. So Emile starts calling me, and he's like, you're really disrespecting uncle, and I want to be with you, and we're coming right after Christmas, and you're gonna ruin everything. And I was like, you know, your gay sex kind of ruined everything. Like, I'm just going hard on him. And.

[A]

Are you? Are you at this point? Like, I know I'm not getting this money back, and that's why I can kind of.

[C]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Whatever the.

[C]

Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, I just. I just decided, like, if there's a chance, I'm gonna just go hard on it because the depression has lifted, you know, I just spent seven days in the most dark, shameful, atrocious place ever, and now it's Scorpio time. I'm going full fucking throttle on your. Yes, it's black. It's. It's revenge. It's fuck around and find.

[B]

Find out.

[C]

So, I mean, like, it got weird. I remember thinking, every time I talk to him on video chat, I'm gonna make sure I'm wearing black. I'm gonna make sure I'm in this Persona. You know, I'm gonna go hard on his ass. So I wouldn't answer the phone unless I was ready. Unless I was like, camera ready. Makeup, dark lipstick, black clothes. There was no part of me that was just going to be like, emile, how could you do this? I was just like. It was. I was mad all the time mad. And if I wasn't in that headspace, I just wouldn't answer the phone. So I was pissed. I didn't think there was a chance I was going to get my money back, because no one ever does. But I was gonna let him know. And I didn't have a strategy yet, but I was letting him know one. I'm divinely protected. And so when you cross someone like me, who does a lot of good in this world, there's going to be consequences. And I told him, I said, I don't know if it'll be today or five years from now, but you're gonna get yours. You are fucked. You are so fucked. Because I'm divinely protected. And again, ladies, I have no idea what I was saying. Like, what does that look like? If he had asked me, I'd say, je ne sais quoi. But no, but I love that you.

[B]

Said that, like, put a little bit of fear in him. Like, you'll see. You'll get yours, mother effer. You'll get yours.

[C]

So this is what happened about a week later. And. And again, I'm not. I'm not. I'm not sleeping. I'm not eating. I'm still hitting that whiskey more than I'd like to admit. I have no strategy. And then one day, I'm getting ready for work, and I put on some jewelry I got from Greece, and it's the evil eye jewelry. Y' all have seen it? Yes. And I remember Turks are just as superstitious as Greeks. And it just fucking popped into my head. Let me call my homies out in North Africa who I. I love North Africa. I visit all the time. And there's an area in North Africa that has a ugly superstition, ugly stereotype about black magic, okay? And the dark arts and witchcraft. And I did a group chat, and I called up many of my homies out there, and I said, listen, I hate to ask this. It's so. It's so ugly. And, you know, I don't believe in any of it because it's the. It's the one country I have visited more than any in any of my life. I go all the time. I love it so much. And I said, would you guys be willing to help a girl out to get some of her money? I've been deeply wronged. And just send a couple of text messages via WhatsApp that you are shaman working in the dark arts, and you would like to see me get my money returned. And they were like, hell, yeah, we would. So I provided Emil's number, and I said, and if you want to make me laugh, maybe just send me a screenshot of some of these just for funsies. And, ladies, when I tell you some of them were unhinged. No. Oh, my God. They were just going hard. And they were like, the thing is with black magic is it does not affect you directly. It affects the people you love. So when your mama gets a chronic.

[B]

Cough, that's a black magic.

[C]

That's us. That's us.

[A]

I mean, did your. Did the guys respond?

[C]

So he had blocked me for a few days because every time we talked, I would just be angrier. A bitch? Yeah. Total bitch. And he didn't know how to deal with me, and he was sending uncle to deal with me, and I would block Uncle. Like, I'm not, you know? And so he's. Then when he got these messages, he unblocked me and called me, and he was like, lena, what are you doing?

[A]

I was like, black magic.

[C]

I go, black magic. I go, emil, what are you talking about? Like, I'm just sipping my coffee. And he's like, who are these guys from North Africa? And I just acted like I had no idea. And he goes, I'm getting all these messages from North Africa about witchcraft.

[B]

Oh, my. Sounds awful.

[C]

He read them off, and he's like, and. And who is this one guy? And he. He read his name, and I said, oh. Oh, you got a message from him. Oh, no, that is not good. Hey. Oh. I said, that's a shaman who lives up in the upper, oh, mountainous region. And he.

[B]

Oh, my. That sounds terrible.

[A]

Let's just say we're praying for you and your family.

[C]

So now he's on the phone with me asking for an explanation. What are you doing? I'm so upset.

[B]

How could f. You? No way.

[C]

I said, I have not done any of this. This is all. This is all you're doing? And he goes, what do you want? And I go, I want my money. Send my fucking money back. And he goes, all I can get you is half right now. And I said, okay, you little cunt, send half.

[B]

Oh, damn.

[A]

So you're my hero.

[B]

100%.

[C]

So I said, when are you going to send it? Because I don't know what these boys are up to. Like, they're in North Africa and they're hard to reach. They're in the mountains. You know, I can't. It's not like they're on WI fi all the time. So send it immediately, and I'll do my best to tell them to stop cooking up their goddamn rituals, but, like, you got to send it pronto. And he sent it in two days. He sent half the money back in two days. Wow.

[A]

I did not expect you to get a penny back.

[C]

I know, I know, I know.

[A]

Oh, my gosh.

[C]

Yeah. What? Okay. So I was super happy. Finally had sleep for, like, the first time in three weeks. Yeah. Yeah. It was great. But that was not going to be enough for me.

[B]

No.

[C]

No. At all. So after a couple of days later, after my victory high wore off, I was like, no, no, no, no. I'm gonna. She's out for blood. Yes. I was.

[A]

Well, they still owe you a lot of.

[B]

A lot of money.

[A]

If this is working, why not try again?

[C]

Yeah. So then I was like, okay, what. What else do I have? Again, it comes back to image. So, witchcraft. We're done with that. I'm going to go Back to image. So I Google mapped the whole neighborhood of where their shop is, and I did all the restaurants, cafes, hotels, and shops, and I wrote terrible Google reviews of everything. Like, I would write, like, cute restaurant, but the store called this nearby is full of mobsters, scam artists, and gay men. And not that there's anything wrong with being gay, I'm just saying.

[A]

But you knew that would.

[B]

You knew that would make them.

[A]

Because they're a problem. Yeah, yeah, totally.

[C]

So I would give it, like, one star and then write this horrific.

[B]

So it made everyone mad at them.

[C]

Yes, yes.

[B]

And then turn their community against them 100%.

[C]

And then I unblocked him and sent them the links to every review I wrote, hoping that, like, yeah, they would walk over and be like, what the. Emil.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Who is this in America who's so mad at you? Yeah. So I did that. And he didn't really respond. He wasn't like, oh, Alina, make it stop. And then I. Surprisingly, his name wasn't taken from Instagram, so I did an Instagram page of like, hi, I'm Emile, and I like to fuck over people for romance scams and financial ones. And that got a little bit of traction, but not a lot, you know, Sent him that link. He hated that. Oh, my gosh, he hated that.

[B]

Out for blood, this one.

[C]

And then it occurred to me I could set up a Grinder profile for him.

[A]

No, are kidding me?

[B]

Yeah, you guys, this next part, I just want you to listen to with an open heart and an open mind. We want to allow everyone a space to share their stories, ethically, which we feel means in their own words, and exactly what happened with the facts. And some of you guys are not going to like this next part. We don't particularly condone this next part. However, we do not judge Lena for her actions in her story.

[A]

She did what she had to do. But it does involve gay men, and we feel like involving gay people in something like this is so dangerous. In the United States, like, 39 states, gay panic is still a defense. For murder.

[B]

For murder.

[A]

Turkey. Like, it worked out okay in this scenario, so it'll be okay. But in for you, for every. We don't want to give anybody ideas.

[B]

Okay, back to Lena.

[C]

You can buy an app that will change your VPN to be in the city of your choice. So I made it look like I was him, and I lived there, and I wasn't sleeping much anyway, so why not Women in stem.

[B]

Hashtag Women in stem.

[A]

There you go.

[C]

So, you know, I had enough pictures and then it turns out Grindr, they like to see dick pics. So I had to find a bunch of dick pics.

[B]

Your Google algorithm is like, please stop.

[C]

I know, I know. Really gross. So I set up a nice little album, and Grindr has a really strange feature called Ready now, where you don't have to do any texting.

[B]

So, yeah, you're just ready now.

[A]

Wait. Oh, my gosh. Are you about to, like, send random men to the rug store?

[C]

Sure did. Oh, okay. Wait, wait, wait. Okay, so tell us what happened. So you set it up so that they.

[B]

You just said, come on over, big boy.

[C]

And they came. And the. The nice thing is the store is three levels. So I told everybody my apartment was on the top level and just come downstairs, ask for a meal, and we'd go up to my apartment and. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

[A]

So do you know what happened?

[C]

Did you ever get a word? I don't. He just told me to stop, but I don't.

[A]

Well, you. He can pay you to stop. He can send that damn money.

[C]

Yeah. So what happened? So what happened?

[B]

Did you get your money?

[C]

Okay, so there's a little bit more.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

So he was, like, calling me, like, Leah. And I was like, hey, you know.

[B]

As soon as I get my money. As soon as I get my money.

[C]

And he was like, you're like, but.

[A]

I love this exploration for you. I think that's really beautiful.

[C]

He just kept blaming his boss. He's like, I can't get it. You know, half is plenty. I was like, this will never end. I'll never let this go. I'll never. And I told him, I said, you know what? You got to know something. You got to know something about me, man. You with my heart. That's the real issue here. It's not about the money. I'll make the money back. You with my heart. It's on. I'm never gonna let this go. And he was like, we. We met for one day, Lena. One day. And I go, doesn't matter. You with my feelings.

[B]

And you got it wrong.

[C]

You have to die. Yeah. Yeah. Like, it's over. Like, I'm. It's not about the money. So, yeah, he was super mad about Grindr. And then before I got off the phone, I was like, hey, hey, hey, hey. Go brush your teeth. And he's like, why? And I go, because I got a big old bear coming for you in 20 minutes, and he likes to be subbed, so get ready. And I hung up. You know, I was just mad all the Time. Crazy. Oh, my God, I love this for us.

[A]

You are so creative. You are. You think outside the box.

[B]

I love it.

[A]

Like, they never in their wildest dreams did they expect someone would do all this. And I love it. I mean, they're getting what they deserve and more. Please continue.

[C]

So I was racking my brain for another angle and I realized I hadn't pursued TikTok. I totally forgot about Tick Tock. I know, because I'm not on TikTok. It's like when you're 50, you're like, I don't want to learn TikTok. It's another fucking thing.

[B]

I got to learn 100%.

[C]

So I reached out to my 20 year old and he's like, I don't know how to do Tick Tock. And I was like, damn it. So I taught myself TikTok. And praise be to the TikTok community. Oh, my God, it's like wildfire. So I set up a cute little profile. I was like a 50 year old solo international traveler. Her luck ran out when she meets Emile in turkey on her 50th birthday. And people were like, this story is so good. And so I uploaded all the pictures and people just. I said, I don't need donations, baby. I just need you to like, share, repost, make it happen. Well, God himself gave me the best gift because on the third day of my TikTok profile being open, Emil cousin sees the profile and must. Must have just not been paying attention because he reposted it to his grid.

[B]

No.

[C]

Yes. And I woke. I woke up to this notification and I was like, oh, my God, what a gift. What a gift. Yeah, I screenshot that and I sent him a DM that says, hey, thanks for the support. Are you a cunt too? And within 12 minutes, he had taken his whole profile down. But because the algorithm is algorithm, it sends me the whole gang.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And all their profiles are public. So I'm taking receipts. I'm taking receipts left, right, center. I got the whole gang now. And after I've taken all the screenshots, I'm sending messages under all their pictures that are just horrible. I mean, diabolical. Like, some of them have their children in their laps. And I'm like, oh, the next generation of cunts. Like, oh, just. I know, I know. I'm not proud.

[A]

Hey, they did awful things to you.

[C]

But I need my goddamn money. I'm not normally this person, but you up.

[A]

And they're not gonna want those things on their profiles. And if that's the Way to stop it. That's the way to stop it.

[C]

I did it all all at once. And so I just love the idea of, like, they're all sitting around the store and their phones are just popping because they all go black at once. They all just go, oh, lean is at it again, you know, and they all go black on their profiles. Except for the Kingpin. No, Big daddy that I never met, but I know from the Facebook group that Lily put together that that's the Kingpin. So when I take all my receipts and I put them together in my tick tock, I tag the Kingpin and all of them so he knows what's up. Because. Because Emil's been saying, oh, Big Daddy won't let me, you know, release the funds. We're gonna do it now. You're going to do it now? And that's what happened.

[B]

He released it.

[C]

That's what happened.

[B]

Tell.

[A]

Tell me. Tell me how, like, did it just appear in your account? Did you. What happened?

[C]

Oh, God, no. So Emil calls me and he's like. He's like, lena, Lena, make it stop. I want the Grinder dates to stop. He goes, I want you to scrub the Internet, and then I'm going to give you the rest of your money. And I go, no, you're going to give me my money, then I'm going.

[B]

To scrub, and then we'll talk about it. Yes.

[C]

And he goes, well, how.

[A]

You're not calling the shots anymore.

[C]

He's like. Acted like a victim. He's like, well, how do I know you're gonna be? And I go, because I've never lied. You're the liar. I've never lied. And he's like, okay. And I go, so just send the money. And then I scrub the Internet real easy, bro. And this is like, this is a bargain for you and your homies to get your reputation.

[B]

Hell yeah.

[C]

So if you don't see that, then you really are a dumb businessman. So get it done. And I said, p. S, this offer is Only good for 72 hours, so get it done right now.

[B]

This good for you?

[A]

This is a. Incredible.

[C]

So he sends the money, okay. And then he's like, you promise? And I'm like, yeah, I promise. Again, I don't lie. You're the liar. So the money gets wired. And he calls me. The day gets wired. And he's like, why haven't you scrubbed the Internet? And I said, because it says pending. Okay? That is not through till it's through. It says pending. And I show them my bank account. Pending. Okay, when it's through, I will scrub the Internet. So he calls the next day and he goes, well, my bank says it's gone all the way through. And I said, okay. My bank says it's gone all the way through, too. And he goes, why haven't you scrubbed the Internet? And I said, because it's Christmas Eve. I didn't tell you that. We're real busy over here in America. I said, I'll get it tomorrow. So he calls me the next day, why haven't you scrubbed the Internet, Lena? And I said, oh, I didn't tell you it's Christmas. This is the super bowl of holidays. I'm sorry, I forgot to tell you. Today is Christmas. I'm gonna get it tomorrow. I'm gonna get it tomorrow. So the next day he calls me and he's like, why haven't you scrubbed the Internet? And I said, oh, my God, did I forget the to tell you it's Boxing Day? I knew you were going to say that. I knew it.

[A]

I was like, if you say Boxing Day right now, you're Iotic.

[B]

Oh, my God, my cheeks hurt, y'.

[C]

All. And then he goes, lena, I swear to God, I said, you are. What are you going to do, walk in God's light? You can't swear to. But I. I'm going to get it tomorrow. I'm going to get tomorrow. Don't you worry. He calls me the next day. Why? I mean, he like jugular veins. Why haven't you. I said, oh, I didn't tell you. You're a little cunt. I'm never gonna scrub the Internet. You can go to hell and the rest of the world needs to know. Then I told him in Turkish, may God curse your soul. Hung up on him, blocked him. And that's the end of our story. Ladies, stop. What?

[A]

Round of applause. Round of applause for Lena. Wow, you got your money back.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I do have to ask. They sent you rugs to your address. Were you nervous at all about the fact that they had your address?

[C]

Yes, because I'm kind of nervous. Yes. At one point when I was saying, you don't know who you're with, he was like, I'll with you back. Like, I have people that will hurt you. I do live in a locked building. And Lily told me, and I did read this in the. There's been a two year long active investigation on this gang. There are 19 legal victims. There's probably hundreds more.

[B]

Of course, if they were to come, they would get busted fast.

[C]

They don't have their passports. So they would have to hire somebody to hurt me. Yeah.

[A]

What does that do? I mean, that doesn't benefit them really, anymore.

[B]

How long ago is this?

[C]

Last Christmas. This last Christmas. Three weeks ago. Yeah. This is so fresh.

[A]

I mean, Merry Christmas. I'm glad you got your money back.

[C]

Thank you. Yeah. So My birthday was October 28th. This ended on Boxing Day. And it's what, January 22nd today? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I. This is really raw for me.

[A]

So are you comfortable sharing how you came to tell this story on our show?

[B]

Yeah, because.

[A]

And how does it feel now that you've shared?

[C]

It? Feels. I mean, obviously the happy ending is amazing. It still feels very surreal. Yeah. I mean, I still. My heart aches for people who don't have their money back. I think that. I think sometimes I just get very emotional thinking about them. When this resolved three weeks ago, I. I felt so sick having to call Lily and tell her my outcome because I had such survivor's guilt. And I. I know as a therapist that's very irrational, but it still exists. And she was so amazing. She was like, I'm so proud of you. And just. I just hate that they don't have their money. And I asked her for an update on the legal case, and she's like, it's not good. We're never going to see that money because the Turkish government doesn't give a fuck. They know they're. They know they're mobsters. They don't give a. They don't want this bad press because the tourism.

[B]

The tourism. Oh, my God. Survivor's guilt is a great way to explain that, because it's like, you got your money back, but they didn't. So you almost feel bad for.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, you know, it's. It's by God's grace and a lot of luck and some creativity, but, like, it didn't have to go this way. It's just very fortunate. It's very fortunate for me. But they're just as worthy to get their money just as.

[B]

Absolutely. Absolutely. Oh, man.

[A]

You shared your story on TikTok, and have you been able to talk to people in your own personal life about all of it?

[C]

Yeah, Yeah, I have. You know, they're so funny. They're just like, yeah, that doesn't surprise me at all that you got your money back. Like, you're kind of.

[A]

Oh, I thought you were gonna say they weren't surprised. You got. Yeah, I was like, oh, God.

[C]

Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Yeah. I mean, like, some of your Other guests, they experienced people who were judgmental, but that's. That's human nature. People who will be uncomfortable with things that you share, and I don't think they always mean to be unkind. It's hard when you're hurting to tell people, hey, that's not helpful. That's not what I need right now. But education is really the key. I would tell people simply because I needed them to repost my TikTok. That was it. I wasn't telling people for sympathy. I was way past that. I was anger. I just. I was like, hey, this is what happened. I have a TikTok. Tell your friends, tell your neighbors, tell your dog, tell your pastor. Just share the TikTok. Because when Emile was learning that there were, like, 45, 000 views, it upset him greatly. And when I tagged his boss, that's when I got my money back. So people would be like, oh, my God, how could this happen to you? You have a master's in psychology. You're worldly, you travel alone all the. Okay, that is not helpful. Are you sure the TikTok or not?

[B]

Right.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. What are you gonna do to help? Like, that's it?

[C]

And then they would say, oh, of course. Of course. That's not what I meant.

[B]

Cool.

[C]

I'm glad we agree that's not what you meant.

[A]

But, like, I love how you. You do advocate for yourself, and it is important to hear a story like this because of how strong you are. Like, hearing the way that they were able to manipulate you. They're so good at it. They're so good at it.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And, you know, we can do everything right, and it doesn't always matter. Like, it's just so hard out there. I wish there was a way for us to just be able to spot every single red flag and every single thing that comes up. But it's. It's not our fault that we don't. We're not built to.

[C]

Well, you. You can't. And. And I love that you guys spend time doing the dissection and the red flag analysis, but sugar and salt look the same. And I think that, again, as women.

[B]

Sugar and salt look the same.

[C]

We need to spend more time on the. Not blaming ourselves.

[B]

Lord.

[C]

You know, when they're professionals at this.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Why would you.

[B]

Disappointing. Because it's. It's one thing to not trust someone else, but to not trust yourself, then you've almost. You've done this to yourself is how it can feel. And I get that. It just sucks.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Can you talk about how, like, the difference between supporting yourself and supporting someone else because you're good at supporting other people. It's what you do for a living. Why is it so hard for us to do that for ourselves?

[C]

That's a great question. And I spend a tremendous amount of time in my professional work getting people to see that. And so it's so ironic that I went to this dark hole for a week, because the problem with self love and self compassion is that we feel like we miss something. And if we had just gotten it, we wouldn't be in this predicament.

[B]

Yeah. If I had just seen that one thing or whatever.

[C]

And it's actually something our brain does as a survival mechanism. So some of it is biology. Right. We think, well, if I just. If I had just not missed this, then I couldn't have had this problem. I won't have this problem in the future. So some of it is evolutionary psychology. But the problem is, if you ruminate on that, then you miss the opportunity to say, I'm human and I deserve compassion. And also, just thinking about it in terms of the logic, these guys are slick. They have spent decades perfecting their art. And you walk in with trust and empathy and kindness, which are all wonderful.

[B]

They're ready for. Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. Those are wonderful attributes. Yeah.

[A]

About them and their culture and their world. Like, those are great, wonderful attributes.

[C]

And you. They just got misdirected in the wrong way. But those qualities directed at the right person could create a lifetime of love and relationship and family. Just wrong person. But, like, how could you see it when they. They. You know, what looks like banter is really mining for information.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, and that's all we want, is good banter. That's all we want is a connection and a romantic day.

[C]

And that's allowed because the alternative, going through life with your guard up is exhausting. And I don't want anybody.

[B]

It really is. I know that. Yeah, you're absolutely right.

[C]

Right. I mean, I look back on this now and I'm like, I have such dark humor about it. I'm like, I was in a rom com. But also, was that bird, like, a paid actor? I mean, what the.

[B]

Was that bird a paid actor?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, my gosh.

[B]

I'm just blown away.

[C]

Me too.

[A]

I'm sure I just went back to dark magic.

[C]

You know, I think for me, the very best part of this story is when I was telling my son, because we're very close. He's my only child, and he noticed, like, right away that Week that I was in that dark space and I had gone back to drinking. And he was like, what's going on with you? And I told. I was like, I just can't talk about it yet, but I will talk about it. But I was like, I just need you to know, but people like this are out there. And so I told him the whole story even before I had my money back. And when this was all done and the money was back in my account, he looked at me and he said something so cool. He said, it's so dumb, But I just. It just is the best part of the story. He looked at me and he said, mom, you're a real G. You're a.

[B]

Real G. I love this for us.

[A]

You're a real G. I mean, he's a hip hop.

[B]

That's a big. That's a nice compliment coming from your son, though. If my son said that, I'd be like, I'd feel so legit.

[C]

Like, I do. I just think, like, you are.

[B]

Can we.

[C]

Wow. Like, he just meant. He's like, you're a total G. I love this.

[A]

You're a baddie.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You got that money back?

[C]

Yeah. What do you guys think?

[B]

Are you dying?

[C]

Are you dying? She freaking nailed it.

[A]

Has anyone in the history of the dating detectives gotten all of their money back?

[B]

No, I haven't heard of any of them getting it. Do you remember, I mean, we always.

[A]

Say, if you give anyone money, lend money, even if you think you're buying rugs, assume you're not getting the money back. Which I stand by.

[B]

I always say that never, never loan anybody money. If you're gonna give somebody money, just never expect it back. You are giving it as a gift from the kindness of your heart, period. Never expect it back, because you will get let down most the time, but.

[A]

Every now and then, just a little dark magic gets it back in your pocket.

[C]

I am. She is so creative.

[B]

She really is. But I loved that she was like, you know what? I have nothing to lose. Like, you've taken so much from me, and I'm not backing down. A lot of afraid to stand up for it or come back because they feel like these people are so powerful and they can do all these things, and so they're afraid of them. But she said, I don't care if I'm afraid of them or not. Like, I don't know what they'll do to me, but I'm freaking standing up for myself. And she did. And good for her for doing that.

[A]

I'm so Glad that it worked out the way it did. And I. We have a couple things to go through. I definitely want to go through, like, steps that they took in their scam because there were a few very textbook moves that they made.

[B]

Yeah, okay, Go through those. That's. That's great.

[A]

I mean, we always. Yeah, you'll probably have some that I miss for sure. We always. We know that when you listen to a story in the condensed podcast episode, it's very easy to go, that would never happen to me. And we encourage you not to say that, not to jump to that, because you really don't know what it's like until you're in it. And everyone's experience is different. And also, she did show me a picture offline, and the guy was pretty hot. Just saying.

[B]

Just saying. But also. Yes, that's a good point, Hannah, that you make. Because if you think about it, if you're someone who's in this situation and you're act actively going through it and they, let's say they hurt your feelings or they do something wrong, and then you have a couple days to, like, get over it and process. Right. And then you kind of come back down. You're like, okay, this is. And you justified in your head or whatever. But then, then it happens again and you. It's not in the course of a small period where it's like this podcast. You don't have time to process and get over it. Like, you're just mad, mad, mad, mad, mad. And so it's easier when you're listening after to say, oh, that would have never happened to me. So, yeah, yeah.

[A]

The umbrella over the entire scam is that she was being love bombed from start to finish. Like, even the uncle was like, vibing with her, totally gassing her up. Then this guy was doing everything right, like, gentlemanly. He wasn't being like pushy, but he was being gentlemanly. He played into her expectation of the culture. And she was a smart traveler. You know, she knew her stuff. It's not like she is somebody. That's this thing they don't just go after. If you, if you get scammed, don't think it's because you're like a dumb, weak damsel. It's like they go after smart people.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

So they. Okay, what was I gonna say? The love bombing. I love that she was like, I have high self esteem, so love bombing makes sense, which is just so funny. But it was very clear that, like, she would be rewarded with love bombing when she did what they wanted her to do. And it was like. It was kind of like a push and pull. I felt like where he would, like, pull back with the way he'd be really friendly and be like, you're part of the family. And then as soon as it was like, oh, well, I don't know if I want to get in on. Involved in that, suddenly they made themselves like the victim, and they made it all her fault. What did he say? He was like, someone scammed us in the past, so suddenly he's the victim.

[B]

He. Because that gives the other person, their victim, the opportunity to feel like a hero by doing it. So you're basically. They manipulated her to put her in a position where she feels like, I've got to do this because I can't say I can show them that there are good people in this world. And so it kind of changes your mindset, which is they took advantage of that. That's such a manipulation tactic that we never. That we don't even think about sometimes.

[A]

And then I thought about the acronym you taught me, fog, which stands for fear, Obligation. Obligation, guilt.

[B]

Yep, yep. And when someone makes you feel any.

[A]

Of those things, I was like, okay, so she is coming off of this night where she, in her mind, he is. This implied that, like, this could be a relationship, not necessarily a marriage. But she was like, I could see this guy continuously. We could visit each other, travel together. Like, this was not a one off for her. Like, she thought there could be something. And then all of that next morning was like, foggy, foggy, foggy. They took her bags away. She's a little confused. They rushed her for time. She had to get to the airport. They. He disappeared. She's like, where is he? There's fear. Then she feels obligated. He gaslights her into saying, you agreed to this. And then she feels guilty if she doesn't do it. It was all right there.

[B]

And that's the. That's the exact way that people use fog. Anyone or all of those things is just another. It's just a manipulation tactic. And she wanted to nurture that because she's in this point in her life where she's fine on her own, but she's also, like, you know, confident enough that she's like, okay, I can share this with someone. And so that sucks that she. She got manipulated when she thought she was doing so well. You know what I mean? Like, it just sucks.

[A]

It sucks. And then after the fact, I'm so grateful that she talked about being a mental health professional still going through such a dark Period afterwards. It's so real. And also just the idea that she immediately took the blame. I love that we talked about how women always just take the blame. Like, we always are just like, oh, my God, I'm the problem.

[B]

Yeah, because that's so easy to. We're such people pleasers. First of all, most of us, as humans, are right. And then you want to be a nurturer, and you want to do the right thing, and you want to give in to this idea that, like, you could be helping them by showing them that, you know, it sucks, they got scammed, but now you want to make it right, and you can be that hero for them. And that's a strong position for a woman to feel like she's in. And so they manipulate that, take advantage of it, and it's just not pretty.

[A]

And then the only other thing. I mean, just connecting with the other. Okay, Lily in Antarctica, that was, like, funny, because it's like, what, now there's a person in Antarctica? Like, her whole story was crazy. It was wild.

[B]

The Antarctica thing. I'm like, show me a penguin, a polar bear, something.

[A]

And then she did.

[C]

Yeah, that's.

[A]

I mean, thank goodness. I. I feel sorry that other people did not get their money back, but I'm glad that I think she's stopping. Like, I don't know. These guys are gonna have to work a lot harder to keep doing what they're doing. The businesses around them, the reviews. That was smart.

[B]

Yeah, no, I think that was really smart. And although I don't. I don't necessarily condone that. It you. I mean, I'm not mad at. I can't say I'm mad at her for doing it. I just can't. Yeah, we're not saying go out and do that. But also, I listen, you know what I mean?

[A]

Want us to be the judge and the jury, and we're simply not. We're just girls, and we want a gab, and we want to hear how you survive.

[B]

And gossip saves lives.

[A]

Managers 110,000%. I'm so. I might. I mean, that might be my next T shirt. Like, seriously, you need to talk to each other, and you need to stand up for yourself. And she's like, I'm going on TikTok. I'm going on Instagram if it feels good for you. Like, obviously, you don't have to do that if you feel like you just want to put something in your past. But I'm so proud of her and inspired by her. Truly badass.

[B]

I am, too. And also, Just to let you guys know, and just to remind you, we want to give people a way to share their story in their own words, which, to us, feels ethical, and it feels good. And just giving them the space to share their story, whether or not they right, wrong, or indifferent, it is their story. It is their space to tell it. It is not like, oh, well, you can tell your story only if we agree with it. That's not what we're doing here. So I don't. I mean, and we all know we're secretly, like, giggling at what she did. Like, like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, so, I mean, I. I heard a collective hell yeah from our audience as she was telling her story.

[A]

As we always encourage you if you have words of support or if you were inspired by our guest Lena, in this case, like, let us know. Comment publicly on whatever, like, forum you're listening. Or on social media. We're Dating Detectives Podcast because we try to pass those messages along.

[B]

Any wonderful, supportive comments that you have, we definitely want to share it with our. Our guests who so bravely and courageously share their stories. Because so often we hear, oh, I didn't want to share this, or I feel so stupid, or whatever. And so, you know, just supporting them and hearing other people say, oh, my gosh, me too.

[C]

That's a.

[B]

That's very brave, and it's very vulnerable, and you guys know how that feels. So thank you so much for always being so supportive. I love our audience so much.

[A]

I really do. I'm so excited to go to Patreon and see the WTF moments you guys had. I know this episode.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

I love everybody talking about it, and I want. I mean, if you guys have other stories of getting money back from scams somehow, like, as simple as calling the bank and saying the right thing to the bank, to sending your friends who do dark magic to scare them. Like, whatever it is, we can help each other, because I hate to say it, we're all gonna get scammed at some point. Like, it just happens. Especially with AI nowadays.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, like, she obviously was in person, but I think the online AI makes out.

[B]

Everything looks so real.

[A]

It's really freaky. It's really freaky.

[B]

Freaky. That's why I don't trust no screenshots. You could be like, well, here's a screenshot text, and I'll be like, I don't. You could alter that. I don't care. I don't trust nobody.

[A]

I think that's fair. We should do another. We did an episode a while ago about pig butchering. The scam we did. Like, it came up in a story, but then we did a Patreon deep dive kind of explaining how that scam works. I wonder if we could, like, look into more and do another scam update. Let me know if you'd be interested in that, guys.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely.

[A]

Anything else, Mackenzie?

[B]

I'm still blown away. Like, I'm so proud of her. Good for her.

[A]

Alina, we love you.

[B]

Like, I'm. I'm obsessed with what she did, and I think everybody else is too. Like. Like, maybe it doesn't solve the problem, maybe it doesn't fix everything, but it was. It just feels good to know that you're kind of. I don't know. I feel vindicated for something that didn't even happen to me. Like, I just feel like it's like, yes, someone stood up and that's great. And it just feels good.

[A]

Karma, baby, Karma got him. And karma's name was Lena.

[B]

Anyways, they you so much for listening, you guys. We absolutely adore you.

[A]

And as always, as always, trust your femtuition.

[C]

Sam.