← The David Greene Show
The David Greene Show
David Greene Show I You’re Being Gaslit in RE Right Now. Here’s Why I Episode 131
01:02:54
Loading summary
Transcript75 lines
- [00:00]
A
Welcome to Real Talk Real Estate, the show where we cover how to build wealth in real estate with no fluff, no BS and no sales pitches. I'm David Green and I've been doing this for over 10 years. I've seen the ups, the downs and everything in between. This is the show where we pull back the curtain and show it to you too. So if you want to build wealth through real estate or you just love learning about it, you found your home. What's going on, everyone? Welcome to Real Talk Radio. This is the David Green Show. I'm David Green and I'm joined with Angela Haydorn, the property manager for Coast To Coast Getaways. We've got a little bit of a different show for y' all today. Angela and I are going to be talking about what is going on in the influencer world of real estate and then juxtaposing that with what's going on in the real world of real estate and doing our best to give you guys some ideas of what type of asset, what type of investing, what strategy, what niche, what you should be doing for different personality types, different occupational types and different goals. Hopefully at the end of today's show, you have a little bit more clarity on what type of asset you should be looking to buy or how you should be looking to get into it, as well as learning some cool things that go on behind the scenes of a full time real estate investor business person. Angela, thank you for joining me.
- [01:14]
B
You are so welcome. I'm happy to be here.
- [01:17]
A
I see this as a different background than last time. Where in the world are you joining us from?
- [01:22]
B
I'm currently in Knoxville, Tennessee.
- [01:27]
A
That's right.
- [01:27]
B
Living in, I should say. I'll give a little bit more detail. I'm currently living in a very small basement type apartment and actually the landlords or the owner of the property came to me and was asking some advice. So it's actually a great. We can talk about this more later. But it's a great investment strategy for certain people, not everybody.
- [01:50]
A
That's a medium term rental, right?
- [01:52]
B
Yes.
- [01:55]
A
All right. Now you've also had some big news in your world. You moved to Knoxville. You're managing cabins in the Smokies as well as property across the country for coast coast getaways. And you're now a licensed real estate agent. What was it like going through the process of studying to get a license? For anybody who's kind of considering or maybe dabbling in the idea of getting their license, what would you tell them to expect?
- [02:15]
B
I would Say the biggest thing is when you're studying for your exam and you're reading your materials, you're going through your class, whatever your state requires, you don't actually learn much when you're studying for the test. There are some things, but the real learning happens when you join your brokerage and you start diving in, you start showing houses, you meet somebody who wants to sell a cabin or a property. So the real work starts when you join a brokerage. I think that's been the biggest lesson because I thought I had to memorize everything that I learned in the book. None of it I've used so far. Never.
- [02:51]
A
So you passed the test. Now you joined a brokerage. What was the experience like of joining a real estate brokerage? I'm sure there's a lot of pressure on picking the right one, looking at all your options.
- [03:00]
B
Yeah, I thought I was going to call, make one phone call and call it good. But to your advice, I called probably four or five, I think. And I actually learned that they all are very different and also very much alike at the same time. So as far as whatever their split is, how some people charge, I'm looking for my own primary house. Sometimes they charge you for that, sometimes they don't. So there are a lot of differences, but there's also a lot of similarities. So it just depends on what you're looking for. But it was quite, I interviewed probably, I think four or five brokerages before I found the one that made the most sense.
- [03:38]
A
What were some of the questions that you were asking these different brokerages?
- [03:43]
B
Yeah, so one of the big things is the split and whether it's 70, 30, 80, 20, 90, 10, if it's a discount brokerage, those types of questions and sometimes people think like the discount. I thought at first the discount brokerages were the best. It could be the case or maybe it's not the case, depending on what other things that your brokerage offers. The training was really important to me. So obviously with you I have a great resource. But the day to day, the ins and outs, the questions are specific to Tennessee, those types of things. And then also again specifically because I'm, I'm trying to buy my primary. That was also important. Sometimes, like I said, they charge you and sometimes they don't, right?
- [04:28]
A
Yeah, that's true. Sometimes they give you like a little hip freebie if you're buying your own property. Other times not so much. I was, there's something I was going to ask you and I just forgot right there at the end while you Think about it.
- [04:41]
B
The one thing I would also add is that the other thing that's important was mentoring and training. Sometimes brokerages will charge you for that. I know. My mom is also a real estate agent. They charge 25 for her first couple transactions. The brokerage I'm with, they don't charge that. So again, it's personal preference to some extent. But there are a lot of differences and a lot of similarities.
- [05:07]
A
The biggest two camps is you've got the people with what I call, quote, unquote, a fair split. Now, no one thinks that's fair, like 80, 20 or 75. 25. People hate that. But that's, in the industry, considered a fair split. That kind of comes with everything you would need. And then you've got what I call a discount brokerage, which gives you a super low split or a flat fee. And then they nickel and dime you for everything you might ever need. It's like Spirit Airlines. So what I found is no matter what brokerage people pick, they're always unhappy. They either think they're paying too much for their commission or they signed up thinking that it was going to be basically free or close to free. And then they're getting nickel and dime for everything. And like you said, they're different, but they're always the same. Everybody hates it. The question I was going to ask you what was different about the process of picking a brokerage from what you were expecting when you started?
- [06:00]
B
I really expected them to kind of sort of all be the same. I expected. I also didn't know. I don't know if you remember this, but after I got off the first call with a broker, I came and asked you, and I was. I asked you what all of this stuff means and stuff that I was, to me sounded pretty good there. I don't remember what their cap was and the cap is. Do you want to explain what a cap is?
- [06:24]
A
Yeah, basically. So you could be on a split, like I said, 75, 25. Once you paid a certain amount of money for the year, you are capped, and then you keep all your commission after that. So if your cap is 20,000, you would pay 25% of your commission until you had paid 20,000, and then you'd be on a hundred percent for the rest of the year.
- [06:44]
B
Perfect. I didn't know that the first time I interviewed somebody. And so I really thought they were all the same and got it. Yeah. So I didn't expect the cap was the big thing. I didn't know there was a cap. I didn't know. And what I learned is there. There are differences, but they kind. It kind of comes out in the wash. It's all a little bit the same. And then also the training wasn't something. There's different levels of training for each brokerage just based on. It's probably based on what your split is. But the brokerage I specifically joined, they didn't have. They don't charge you for the training or mentorship. They're just offering it to you. Any question I've had, they've been super helpful. And so I just. I think there was all these nuances. I thought I was just going to sell houses and. But I realized what's most important after having my license for a couple of months now is the training and mentorship.
- [07:42]
A
Yeah, I would say. So having a really good split but never selling a house doesn't benefit you. Having a split you don't like, but selling a lot of houses because you got good, that does benefit you. So I tend to err on the side of I'll pay whatever I got to pay. I want to be around the best people. I want the best training. I want them to give me the best confidence to get out there and get it done. And if I get really good, I can always go renegotiate my split. But if I never get good, it doesn't really matter that I negotiated a good split right off the bat. So quick tip for all y' all new agents out there. When you're new, don't be greedy. Don't worry as much about your split as you do the quarter quality of training. If you get good, they're going to want to pay you to keep you around. All right, moving on. You had mentioned something earlier about how confusing it is because you work for me, but you also partake in social media. You see all of the different influencers, all the YouTube channels, everything that real estate investors are getting hammered with. You feel the emotions that come from it, and then you go to work and get the. The real deal, the real McCoy every single day. So you're aware of this discrepancy between the way it's portrayed and the way that it is in a way that not everybody is. There's a lot of people that get it on Instagram and they see what it looks like, and then there's a lot of people that work in it, but maybe they don't pay attention to social media. You're doing both. Tell me what your thoughts were that led to you wanting to do the show today.
- [09:06]
B
Yeah, So I see, I see it, it's not just social media. I actually see it with a meetup that I go to and the people that I talk to, that people are always asking these questions about, oh, I saw this thing, or this person is talking about this thing, or this new thing came up, or this tool, or maybe tools are a bad example. But I often see, and I see it too, I see some of the influencers that I do follow and it's this shiny object syndrome. And it's driving me nuts because I get it, being in this industry and working for you, I get these questions a lot. And the people that maybe you send my way, I get these questions a lot where people are constantly, they're still, I should say still chasing this shiny object that may or may not be right for them. And it drives me nuts because more often than not, they're just giving in to the influence of this person and what they're saying and they're thinking that it's right for them because that's how the influencer is. I'm sure they're selling a course or making money off of it somehow. But it's crazy to me that at this point we don't know that they're trying to influence us and make maybe what they're saying isn't 100% truthful. So that was kind of what sparked my interest in this topic.
- [10:20]
A
Do you have some examples of the shiny objects that you see people sort of being sold?
- [10:28]
B
Yeah, absolutely. So I have a friend who's looking to get into investing, which of course is not a bad thing. But she's calling me a couple times a week saying, oh, I should do this. And trying, she's trying to, she's listening to these influencers and trying to get these super, super intricate details of investing. Even though she's never even invested in a single property yet. And she's calling to ask me for advice and I have no idea what to tell her because having no experience, and she's like, well, I'm gonna rent out this house. And then it could be a short term rental, it could be a midterm rental. And I'm like, you need to just buy a property first and then you need to run or you need to run some numbers and then buy a property instead of being like, how do I get by this insurance thing and this property management thing and then all these different ideas and it's like, not this one, it's wasting your time. Two, none of these are going to work without having any experience. And you being like, it's like a squirrel and you see all these different things that you want to do. And I think that if people focus more on either what they're good at or focus on this one thing or a couple of things over here, then it's going to go a lot further for them.
- [11:42]
A
So maybe software could be a shiny object that people get exposed to and analytical tools, I think that's a big one. Like in the short term rental space, Price Labs, you'll hear people say, you got to have Price Labs. And we use Price Labs all the time. You know Price Labs better than anyone. But having it is not the same as knowing what to do with it, knowing how to use it. Right. It's like you could give somebody a firearm if you don't know how to shoot. It doesn't really do you a whole lot of good. But new investors are hammered with like, you need this and you need this, and you need this. And they, they hear these words getting thrown around, but they're not really ever taught how to use it. Do you remember when you were kind of a new investor, you had, you did some flips, you did some regular traditional rentals and then you did a short term rental or two. What were some of the like, oh, this was bs. They told me this and it ended up looking differently that you can remember.
- [12:35]
B
I might get some hate for this, but I think one of the big things was the cost segregation. When I bought my. And I don't want people to hear me to say that's bad, but when I bought my first short term rental, there was something, some sort of, call it spiritual, maybe that in the back of my head I knew I wasn't going to own it for that long. And you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think with cost segregation you want to plan on having it for at least five years or you may have to pay back that depreciation. So that was a big thing. When I bought my short term rental in, I think it was 20, 21, that everyone's like, you have to do this, you have to do this, you have to do this. And it would have cost me, I think like maybe 6, $7,000, I think to do the cost segregation and thank God I didn't because I only owned my short term rental for I think maybe two, a little over two, maybe three years. So that would have been really bad for me. And I didn't have, I did a lot of things wrong, but I didn't have the reserves. And all that stuff, that was a big thing, and I think that was the big one for me was the cost segregation. Now, it's, of course it's right for some people, but everyone was talking about it in 2020 and 2021, and it can be good, but it was definitely not right for me.
- [13:53]
A
Yeah, let me break it down. That's a really good example. That's a good thing you didn't do it. So let's say that you do a cost segregation study, which is what you need to do accelerated depreciation, which is how you depreciation of your asset all in the first year or the first couple years, so to speak. So Maybe you save $15,000 in taxes, but it costs you $7,000 to get the study done. This makes the most sense on really big, expensive properties because the cost of the cost segregation study is roughly the same whether it's a small house or a big one. About the same amount of time that has to go into it. But the tax savings are very different if it's several million dollars for the property or if it's cheap. Now, if you sell the property, you have to do something called depreciation recapture, which is where you pay back the money, in a sense of what you saved when you did the accelerated depreciation, but you don't get back the money that you spent on the study. So if you spent 7,000 to save 15,000, then you had to pay $15,000 back when you sold. You're out $7,000 for no reason. And no one talks about that on the podcast. So you dodged that bullet by not doing it. But you would have been at the time, like, am I doing this wrong? Am I supposed to do it? This is what I hear on my Instagram reels, right?
- [15:09]
B
Yeah. And I was like, I looked into it a lot. I think I talked to an accountant, I explored it, I researched it, and thank God I didn't, because if you guys listened to the past episode a couple months ago, you'll know I lost a lot of money on that property. I would have lost even more had I done the cost.
- [15:28]
A
That's a great example. Now it's also really trendy in real estate podcast world to portray that there's a new strategy and this is how you win. If you do this new thing, you have an advantage over everyone else. And I watched this because I kind of got in in 2010 when you couldn't lose. Everything was on sale, foreclosures everywhere. The podcast world was brand new. Brandon and I were some of the first people that were talking about it. And it was just, how do I get you to buy a property instead of spending your money on a car? Literally explaining what cash flow was was all you had to do to get someone into the game. And then everyone got into the game. And so then I wrote long distance real estate investing, which from my perspective was sort of the first pivot into a different strategy, Quote, unquote strategy here. So, yeah, everybody would buy where they, they lived. It was called buying in your own backyard. And buying in another area was considered risky because you could get ripped off. So I wrote long distance real estate investing. I took a lot of heat because I kind of put a system together of how you buy somewhere else. This was like the first in my head. This was the first time someone said, don't just do what everyone says, do it different. And then after long distance real estate investing happened, people started buying in different areas and then they ran out of money. So then I wrote the Burr book. Well, this is how you buy it and fix it up and refinance it instead of selling it or keeping all your money in it. That's kind of a new strategy. Then Brandon Turner invented the phrase house hack, and he started teaching people how to house hack. And at every turn here you had a new strategy that was the new thing to do. This works, this is how you pivot. And then it got out of hand. Then it turned into short term rentals, turning your house into a hotel. And then it turned to buying a house and making it a short term rental. Then it's like, well, that's a lot of work. So get a medium term rental. And after medium term rentals were too saturated, we had medium term rentals. And then it became group living or sober homes. And then it became the, the group homes. And then it became the pad split model of shove a bunch of people in a house. And now like fractional investing is what everybody talks about. Like, do you want to own a little piece of a big deal of a, of a home? And I'm sure I missed some strategies that were like packed in there along the way. But the problem is the people listening. It trains your brain to say, what's working now? What's the new strategy? Not what are the fundamentals, what's the deal? And what I like to say is how do you build your life around your investment strategy? Not how do you find the strategy that works for you so you get to be comfortable. How do you find a strategy that works for long term wealth and how do you adjust? How do you get into the full time real estate? Does it look like just being an investor? Does it look like doing more? Does your personality have to adapt? Do you have to get better at certain things? Can you. Do you have to quit your job and take a different job? For me, when I saw that I could buy rental properties, I'm like, well, guess I'm working 100 hours a week as a cop because that's the only way that I knew that I could do it. And I changed my life to fit what my goal was. You've done a great job so far in this podcast not mentioning anything about CrossFit. I don't know I've ever seen you go this long doing it, so well done. So I'm going to bring it up. You're a crossfitter. You have to schedule your day around your workout. You have to eat around the workout, you have to plan things around the workout there, there. At certain times of day, you have to mold yourself to fit your goals when it comes to the workout you're trying to do. I love that about you. I love that about anybody who does that, who says, I've got a goal and I'm going to adapt to meet it. I don't think that's the way real estate is getting presented to most people. It's. We've come up with a way that makes it easy and convenient for you, so take our course and we'll do it all for you. I don't know who's actually making money like this. Like this is where we're about to get into the weeds right now of what really goes on in the world of real estate. So let's start off with short term rentals. Because you manage all of my short term rentals, do you find that it's easier, hard right now to compete with the other people that have them?
- [19:36]
B
Gosh, it's not even. It's incredibly difficult and I will die on this hill. So if somebody wants to come in the comments and say that it's super easy, I'm sure there's the outliers, but it is incredibly difficult. It's not only the property and standing at your property, standing out, but it's also the guests and the way some of the OTA platforms are operating now and some of the changes they've made and then they made these changes and they didn't tell anyone, but they changed it back. And so constantly adapting to all of those things and staying up with the trends and not to mention you know, you make changes to your property and then in three years, you know, you and I talk about this all the time, but it's, we're going to have to make another change next week or next month or like we just had new photos done on some of our properties and we're already talking about scheduling new photos because we've made changes because we have to update and it's incredibly difficult. Every aspect of it is really difficult right now. It's not just, oh my, the economy's down and people aren't traveling as much. It's that and tenfold as far as short term rentals go.
- [20:47]
A
Yeah. Let me give you an example of what we used to call being a short term rental operator or owner. What it is evolved in today because it is so competitive. You got to be able to analyze and buy the asset. You have to manage the asset or set money aside to pay someone to manage the asset, whoever is managing the asset. Now we break that down. You have revenue management, which is the people that go on tools like price labs, tabs and look into not only having dynamic pricing, but how do you adjust the dynamic pricing to try to get a booking and to get a booking for more when possible. Then you've got the design element. You're literally going to hire a designer to tell you what color to paint things, what wallpaper to put up, what furniture to buy. Well, not just have a game room. Now your game room has to be custom designed. Now you have to have the contractor, if you don't do the work yourself, that's going to go in there and they're going to do the work that the designer came up with, how to get done. So you got to be smart contractor. Then you also have to be able to buy the materials that are going to be done. You probably can't pay full price for those just walking into a furniture store. So you got to be able to know what to buy, where to buy it, how to get it at a good price. Then you have to have the hospitality thing because the people are going to come in and Angela will talk about this and they're going to complain about every single thing that they possibly can have. Then you're going to be ranked by Airbnb and VRBO and all the other places for how quickly you respond to the guests so you don't ever get to get away from, from your phone. This is all just the stuff that I can throw off the top of my head. And this isn't even to make money. This is just to try to keep your head above water. Okay. Meanwhile, someone else is out there partnering with private equity or private equity is getting in, and they're coming in with $400,000 to buy a different house, blow out the backyard, put in a lazy river, build a circus back there, turn the whole thing into a clown show with game rooms and movie theaters and arcades and putt putt gol golf and golf simulators and VR simulators and amazing views. And you're trying to compete with that person when there used to be, like, let's say 10 guests for every 12 properties. Now there's like four or five guests for every 12 properties. And this is the space that people are being said you should run into. Did I miss anything there?
- [23:05]
B
No. I mean, there's so much more. But, sir, I loved your circus, your circus reference, because that's what it seems. That's what it seems like.
- [23:15]
A
Yeah. You and I literally saw a house on Airbnb yesterday. Because, folks, this is what we're forced to do. We run coast to coast getaways. So we got to look at what all the competition's doing and try to figure out how do we compete with them, but for maybe, like, 20% of the price of what they're putting into these deals. Because of the people whose houses we manage, they don't have $250,000 to throw into a massive design. And this house had wallpaper on the ceiling. You heard me, right? They put wallpaper on the ceiling. And there were so many things going on in this bedroom that I didn't even notice was just like a cube of color. It was like. Like someone threw. Oh, God, what would you even call it? Like a kindergarten room mixed with a circus in a grenade. And it blew up all over that room. And it's, like, overwhelming what's happening. And that's what everybody on Airbnb is seeing. Do you want to describe, like, what we were looking at with some of these properties?
- [24:11]
B
First of all, I liked. I loved the wallpaper on the ceiling. And yeah, it's. We. We think we do a pretty good job. I think we do a great job, actually. But then there's always someone who has to blow it out of the water like that. That listening that we saw now, we just talked about this, that it's probably overdone. Like, there are certain things, like the Smoky Mountains. You have to have a hot tub and a pool table to even enter the market. That's like your buy in, right? And then you can get a mini golf course. You can get arcade games. The arcade games are probably also a buy in, but there's other things you can add in addition. But this house was completely blown out of the water. They didn't need to spend that much money. But yeah, I mean, every room, every single detail, there was no detail that was left untouched. And for the market that it's in, I don't know that it really warrants that, But I'm sure it stays booked. But are they booking for the ADR that they want? I would bet probably not.
- [25:17]
A
Well, what we're getting at here is the level of effort put into one house to be competitive as a short term rental is insane. You have to have so much money and so much time. We're not saying don't do it. What we're saying here is if you're gonna do it, you kind of got to go into it expecting this. I don't know that that's always marketed. If you're not doing that, I don't know how long term you compete with the other houses in your market that are. And here's another way to look at it. When you first bought a cabin in the Smokies, you just had to buy a cabin. Then other people bought cabins and you had to go spend money on the decor. You needed to get some bears, you needed to get some bear cubs. You needed to get something to hang on a wall. You needed something that said welcome to our cabin, whatever. Then everyone did that and you're like, well, now we need to update the decor. So you spend a bunch of money updating the decor. Now that's not enough. Now you need new furniture. The furniture has to look like wood. It has to be pine logs. Your bunk beds have to be special bunk beds. Now that's not enough because everyone's doing it. So now you need to sleep 12 in your cabin instead of seven or eight. So now you're spending even more money. Now you're. The rest of your furniture needs to be updated to match that furniture. So you have an expensive dining room table. You have some cool wood looking chairs. Now you got to go upgrade your kitchen because it's a little outdated. You need stainless steel appliances because that's what everybody else has. I'm not even getting started right now. There's so much more than this. Now you need to add a hot tub. If you don't have a hot tub, you can't compete. At one point, ooh, we have a hot tub. Now if you don't have a hot tub, it doesn't get booked at all. Then you got to buy a pool table. How are you going to get the pool table in there? You're going to pay an outrageous amount of money to get some mountains, mountain group to go in there and move a super heavy pool table. Which means the new cabins have to have a dedicated game room. Now you need more than just a pool table in the game room. Everyone's got that. You need an air hockey table, you need a foosball table, you need a shuffleboard table. And by the way, you got to go decorate it. And it's gone into movie theaters and then arcades and then indoor pools and now indoor mini golf and now speak easies and saloons. And you got to have a separate area that's a bar. It never ends. People just keep throwing more and more and more stuff to be better than everyone else. Any money that you hope to ever make from your investment goes right back into that investment. Plus the money that you were making at your job or that you were making from your other houses and you're in a doom spiral. That's what's happening when you buy into some of these str markets. There's not a point where you're going to say, hey, the property's making money now I can pay a property manager, I don't have to to do it anymore. Nope, you're going to be putting all that money back into the house. It's got to compete with everybody else. And some cabins are probably just going to be torn down and rebuilt at some point. They're like, ah, not big enough. Can't put an indoor pool right. I didn't even mention the fire pits that a lot of the cabins have and the hammocks and the, the backyards where they bring in a whole bunch of gravel or they put a mini golf course back there. Or I mean, we were even talking about putting like a little range with some BB guns in the to shoot off the back of the deck. Like anything you can do that other people don't have. You have to not only be managing your property, but you gotta be looking at what everybody else is doing all the time. Do you think this is something that investors are being warned about when they're told, hey, you should buy a short term rental?
- [28:29]
B
No. And it's crazy because maybe five years ago you didn't have to worry about it as much, but you have a lot of these influencers that are still saying the same thing. Buy in this market, you'll make lots of money.
- [28:47]
A
Well, let's see here's what this is. What else they're not always truthful about. The influencer has an affiliate fee with a realtor who they're going to say, I'll connect you with this person. They're the best one around and they're going to get a kickback from that. They have an affiliate agreement with a loan company who they're going to connect you with and they're going to do your loan and you're not going to be told that the loan company is just going to in charge your closing cost fees to cover the money that they had to pay for the referral fee from the person that said, oh, I know the best person around. We can get you connected with a loan officer. They have a design person that they're going to refer to or a design company that they're going to own. Like, oh, well, if you're going to buy a short term rental with Bob and you're going to get the loan with Ted, you got to use Mary here to do your design. And then they're going to say you're also going to have to spend a whole bunch of money to buy all the materials that the design person says, don't worry, we'll coordinate all that for you and we'll just not tell you, but we're going to take some off the top. And then we got to coordinate with the maintenance piece people to go set everything up right. So the people making the content, they're not bad. They just got their hands in every single component of what you're doing, which leads to massively inflated prices to get into the game now you pay all that money and you probably do have a property that's going to cover your mortgage. You're going to make some money on it. I don't know at what point you make back the $250,000 that you had to spend to get it to that point. And I know I'm talking a lot here, but I just realized I had talked to one of the top guys in the Smokies at selling houses and I won't say his name, but what he told me that they do is they buy a cabin for 800 grand, but they, they write the contract up for 1.1 and somehow they're getting it to appraise. And what they're doing is they're giving the seller. Let me think of how I want to articulate this. They're paying the seller 800 grand. The seller is taking 300 grand of the 1.1 that was paid and putting that back into an escrow account that goes back to the buyer. Okay. The buyer then uses that $300,000 that they got back to fix up the cabin and make it way nicer. Right. But the bank lent on a 1.1 million dollar asset even though the seller just pushed that money right back to the buyer. Right. And if you're buying with a non conforming loan, I don't believe that that's mortgage fraud. I don't think it's illegal. But it is if it's a conforming loan. So people are just using non conforming loans to do all this. But now your neighbor who just bought that place that would have paid 800,000 for it, they now paid 1.1. But now they have $300,000 to make theirs way better than yours. How do you compete? You lose. You got to drop your ADR way down. You got to try to shove the less desirable people in there. You're not getting booked unless it's the busy season at all because there not as many people looking at your property. And you got to figure out a way to come up with $300,000 just to be even. What's your thoughts on like just how the industry is sharing this information versus what you and I see in the business?
- [31:48]
B
Well, one, you can't compete because I don't have $300,000 to spend, $300,000 extra to spend on a house. So one, I can't compete with that and two, I already can't compete because there's already so much competition and people aren't traveling right now and the economy kind of sucks. So.
- [32:08]
A
Yeah, right.
- [32:11]
B
It's kind of, there's, it's kind of a lose lose situation. I don't say it's a lose lose because there are people that have short term rentals that are doing well. It's not everybody but in a lot of vacation markets, some of these markets that people are being influence to buy in are, they're completely, they're not saying any of this stuff that you're saying right now. They're not being truthful. They're saying yeah, this is a really good deal though because the prices are coming down and interest rates are coming down a little bit and they're not the 8, 9, 10% that we were seeing a couple years ago or last year, the year before. It's. The market's coming. No, it's, I mean I don't want to get too far into this but it's so self serving and it's it drives me nuts because very rarely do you hear people, I'll say influencers or content creators, actually being truthful about what's actually happening in a lot of these markets. Now we have, we have one that we manage in North Carolina that is, it's a, it's a specific market. It's not necessarily a vacation market. It is kind of sorta. They do great, they do awesome. And it's not your typical vacation market, but there's a lot of nuances with that property that we don't have in other markets. So it's just these. I just want people, your audience to be very weary of this. When you hear something that sounds too good to be true, especially in this, knowing the economy and what the markets are doing right now, that people are actually taking that, I don't say with a grain of salt, but they're looking at the whole picture.
- [33:51]
A
Yeah. And if you're struggling with something you've already bought, you're not crazy, you're not dumb. It's because you don't see what everybody else is doing. You're probably just not exposed like you and I are with.
- [34:03]
B
Yeah. One thing I want to add actually is there's somebody that reached out to me. I'm in a lot of these Facebook short term rental groups and someone was asking about a certain community that we, you own and we manage a couple cabins in. And they were asking, how does anybody, and does anybody in here own a property in this community? And so I saw it was a girl and I was like, hey, yeah, like, how can I help you? I'm happy to give you any information. We have a couple of properties in this community and gosh, I had to stop responding to her because I was trying to give her information and share and help her out, but she bought a two bedroom, two bath cabin and it's a brand new cabin, actually. I don't even know if it's finished yet. And she's thinking that she's gonna be making so much money and she's, she already bought the cabin and now she's asking about the community. And I'm thinking maybe these are questions you should have asked before building there or buying this property. But I didn't have, I had to stop responding because I don't have the heart to be like, hey, yeah, this is a brand new cabin and you already need to update it. You need to add a bunch of lights and arcade games and I, it's on a cliff so you can't add a mini golf, but could you Do a theater room. Like she's thinking because she's buying a brand new cabin that it's, she's just gonna crush it right off the bat. And I was like, I, I have
- [35:26]
A
to start kind of like you're, today you're buying a skeleton. That's what the cabin is. And you got to go put all the muscles in the skin, which is extra money.
- [35:36]
B
Yep.
- [35:37]
A
Now that you mentioned it, that's a really good point. Point that you, you would think buying a brand new place, you're coming in an advantage, but the builders did the bare bones. They didn't do hardly anything.
- [35:47]
B
Yep. Yeah. And I saw what she paid for it too. And I'm not sure how she's going to make that back. So.
- [35:54]
A
Yeah, I mean, the reality is we're going to be seeing a ton of foreclosures coming. And here's one thing that I think is odd. You normally would sell a house when it's not performing well. It's hard to sell right now. So you're maybe going to sell for a loss. I don't know how you sell a circus. Like, who's buying that house in the residential neighborhood with the crazy wallpaper everywhere and the, the weird colors and you converted a bedroom into a cigar lounge. And like just the weird things that people are doing in short term rentals, you're kind of stuck with that thing. It can't be anything else. And when you go tits up on this, the contractor still made their money, the designer still made their money, the influencer still made their money, the agent made their money, the lender made. Everybody made their money except for you. You funded everybody else's lifestyle.
- [36:43]
B
Yeah, I thought that about the property we were looking at yesterday, that was my exact thought, is because it's in a residential neighborhood, I actually looked it up and I was looking at the Google street view and I had the exact thought, like, how on earth. Maybe they do really well. Maybe it's a long term situation. But I had that same thought, like, how on earth would you sell this? Like, would you want to live in this house the way it is? Like it just as a regular residential house? Probably not. It's gonna be interesting.
- [37:14]
A
So for the people that are trying to figure out, okay, well, I know I want to do something in real estate. Maybe I don't want to do that. How does someone determine if they want to manage a short term rental, a medium term rental? They want to be a flipper. They should house hack. They should live in flip. They should burr. What what advice do you have for the average human who needs to kind of take stock of their own life, the job they have, the relationship they're in, the kids they have the money they have the capital, the amount of effort they want to put into this and then figure out where do I start and what strategy should I use?
- [37:50]
B
Use, yeah, absolutely. So it's going to be different for somebody who's just trying to get into investing versus someone who's already been investing. So myself, I've got, I'll use myself as an example, but I've got a couple of properties, I have a couple of long terms. I obviously have experience in the short term rental space. I flipped my first house last year. I'm not a flipper. I don't want to manage contractors the way that I had to for this flip. Not really in my wheelhouse. It could be if I wanted to learn more. Sure, I got lucky with it, but not a flipper. Now short term rentals, you want to be attached to your phone all day. Are you a teacher, are you a kindergarten teacher? And you have to be paying attention to little people all day. Short term rentals, probably not going to be your thing. Also short term rentals, are you able to float a mortgage if you're not making money? So if you can you afford the $5,000 payment a month, whatever it's going to be if you're not making money? I think it depends on what your experience is. So if your experience is in. We had a guy last year that came to us and he was, I thought he was a brand new investor, but he was looking for someone to manage his short term rental and he. I thought it was brand new investor based on the questions he was asking. Turns out he has a lot of experience in long term buy and holds and that's where his bread and butter is. But when it came to short term rentals, he's like, I don't want any, I want to own this, but I don't want anything to do with it. Which it was the right move for him to hand off to a property manager and because that was his experience. So it's, I don't want to say it's not the time to move into something new. But if you are investing, like I've invested in long term rentals and I've been doing really well. So for me that's something that I'm gonna stick with and I have more experience in all these other areas which maybe I explore eventually. But I think we have to be honest about what your lifestyle is. Are you married with five kids and you don't have a lot of time to manage something? Short term rental is probably not for you. Could you, are you a stay at home mom and you wanna oversee a fix and flip? Sure. I think it's just being honest with yourself about the time and also the money you have. I'm a, you know, I'm attached to my phone 24 7. I have my phone right in front of me right now waiting if notification comes up. That's important. We have to respond. We have to keep up with everybody else and respond as quickly as possible. So this is, I also think it's. It depends on the lifestyle that you have. So are you single and you want to travel around the world and you're able, you just want money to support yourself and your vacations? Sure. That's going to look a little bit different than if you're trying to put five kids through college and pay your own mortgage. And it just, it just depends on your lifestyle. But the biggest thing in all of this is that don't chase the shiny object. Sometimes you can if you're going to do the research and do your due diligence on it, but I don't think that's often that's not right for everybody. And so I've had to. It sucks because I'm in all of these groups and so I see a lot of it. It's hard for me not to be like, oh, what's this new AI feature? Should I be spending hours of my day learning this new AI feature? Or oh wait, no, the platform we're using is really, really good and we have really great systems. Let's stick with what's working. Of course, always learn new things. But I think we need to be honest about honest with ourselves. The time we have, the money, we have the capital, what makes the most sense for us without giving in to every little whim of a content creator or an influencer.
- [41:45]
A
I think traditionally the thought was you self manage until rents increase to the point you can afford property management and then you hand it over, which wasn't that hard to achieve because if your property Manager makes between 8 to 10%, that's all you need rents to bump. If they go up 3% a year, in three years you're there, you can hand it to somebody else. And so it was sort of looked at like, hey, this is how you earn the right to get property management is you buy it, you do it yourself and eventually you turn it over, over with Short term rentals, that might be a little bit trickier because you're going to have to pay 20%. I mean, it used to be like 30, 35%. Now you could be anywhere between 15 and 25% depending on what level of stupidity that you want managing your property. Right. Like we saw a lot of people that went to evolve and they paid 50% and their properties were absolutely destroyed and in terrible shape. Massive deferred maintenance, the performance was really bad. So let's just call it 20% for right now. You're going to have to get a 20% increase before you can afford property management in a short term rental. That's tough. The way the property managers shorten that time was they would say, well, look, we have dynamic pricing. We have a way to get it booked more often. I'm going to be looking at my phone and I'm going to see the guest inquiry and I'm going to lock in that booking that you might have missed because you were at your kid's soccer practice. So I can maybe get you 10% more just by me managing it. Now you're only having to spend 10%. In today's market, with the level of competition we have, you're not really paying a property manager anymore to get you your time back. You're also getting them to tell you what the hell to do. What do I need to paint? What do I need to fix? What furniture do I need to get? How does this need to be marketed? What pictures do I need? Like, there's a lot, a lot of this. Like we literally will look at properties and say, hey, that space right there. We need to get a picture from this angle that has this in the picture. The frame needs to be this color. The rest needs to be that. The throw blanket needs to look like this. We need to go buy these pieces to fit the picture we want to get. We're not buying the stuff and then finding the picture. We're starting with the picture and working backwards to get the stuff. If you're not that level of committed, you probably need to find someone to hand your thing to and let them figure out what you need to do and come up with the money to do it. What advice do you have for the person with the STR or the medium term rental that's sitting there like, I just don't know what to do. I've tried this, I've tried that, I've put it on different platforms, I've adjusted the pricing. I just feel stuck.
- [44:33]
B
Oh. So I mean, a couple of things we, you need to look at your numbers and realize what I mean. You're also, you're getting your time back. But you know, we recently had a conversation with someone who's self managing and she's like oh, the 20. And it's. And it turns out that it actually was a lot better. Even though she was handing over that 20 to Amanda to us that there was there she didn't have to worry about all these other things. So she didn't have to worry about pricing and the maintenance and the calendar and double bookings and cleaners and all of those other things. So we, we look at this stuff. I look at this stuff all day long. I am on for some of the midterm rentals. I'm on Furnish Finder, we're even listing some properties on Furnished Finder. I'm looking at pricing every single day, looking at calendars, I'm looking at promotions, I'm talking to all the other experts in the market figuring out what we can do differently, what information we can share. And frankly I just, I turned over, I actually have a long term rental that I turned over to a property manager because I'm like, you know what, they can get more money. Actually this is probably a great example. I self manage most of my long term rentals but this one specifically, I had a long term tenant in there. They had been there for a couple years. It's not in the place that I live. I was like, you know what, I need to just hand this off. Well, the property manager, they were able to get more rent than I was able to get and they were able to rent it out faster than I could have. And now granted I did have to interview a bunch of property managers before I chose one but it was the best decision that I made because I'm actually making more money on it than I would have made doing it myself. Myself. Because I don't, I can't in this market that it's in. I just, I can't with all the other stuff going on. I couldn't fix a bathroom fan that's broken or whatever it is. But I made, I made that decision because I'm actually making more money than I would have made on my own. Even though I am paying them the. I think it's 10% but it's not going to be the same for everyone of course. But I think if you're looking at your numbers and you're not just, you're not just looking at numbers and looking at all of those other factors we look at design, we look at how to keep up with. I don't say keep up with the Joneses, but keeping up with the, the market trends. And we don't do it for. We're not going to charge you 200, put $200,000 extra on your house that you're buying to make it happen.
- [47:19]
A
So it'd be a good idea if someone's going to hire a property manager to say, is it realistic to get from where I am to where I want to go? And if so, do you know what I need to do to get there?
- [47:29]
B
Yeah, absolutely. And we, I mean, I do this, I run projections for people all the time and someone was like, I need a number. And I'm like, well, this is your low number and this is your high number. So where it sits right now, no one's renting this. You put, I don't know what the number was, but you put a thousand dollars into it. You bring it up to this place, we can get you here. And that is something as someone who's self managing isn't going to be able to do. If you're. I keep using the example of a teacher, but if you're a teacher, you have a W2 job, you're going to an office every day. You're not in the Facebook groups all day, you're not sitting on Marketplace, you're not talking to the experts. Maybe you talk to them one here and there and you think you're doing your due diligence, you're listening to a podcast on your way work, but you're not living and breathing it every single day.
- [48:18]
A
Oh, that's such a good point. Yeah.
- [48:20]
B
Yeah, that's. So it's. I'm able to have these conversations all day, every day and be looking at the numbers every single day. Because that is what I do all day. So this guy who's like, oh, maybe he works from home, but he's not having those conversations, he's not in those groups, he's not attending the. Maybe he's attending the meetups, but having those same conversations.
- [48:46]
A
Yeah, that you just. That's why I usually can call a market crash or a market taken off before everyone else can. Because every day I'm doing loans at every single state and I'm talking to realtors in every state and I own property in every state and all my friends are real estate investors and all that I do is just immerse myself in the world of real estate. So I get this sixth sense when everything starts to feel wrong or when everything starts to feel right, like I, I was telling everyone, you need to buy quantitative easing is coming. Because I had so many conversations with so many people where every time it was, wow, the appraiser appraisal just came in. 30k more than I thought. Wow. I can't even get my house to market. Someone's buying it before it even goes. And I'm, that's not normal. Why is that happening? Oh, we have too many buyers and not enough inventory story now. We almost have the opposite problem today. And so you kind of got to take this a little more serious than what people might have in the past. I love that point that you want it to be managed by somebody who's immersed in this world and they're seeing a lot of these different, like, what's working, what's not working. I also love the point you brought up about the guy who said, just give me a number. I know why they want the number. Everyone listening has been there before too. I need a number to put in F8 of my spreadsheet so that I know will it work or won't it work? Because I got to make a decision and all these people are asking me questions, right? It's not a bad question. But it shows that you don't understand how a short term rental works. Because the person who's going to choose your house is not going to say, well, you know what, I'll pay this much for a four bedroom and two bathrooms, but only this much for it. Three bedroom. They're not thinking that way. That's how appraisals get done. That's how you decide what house you're going to buy. But when you're picking your short term rental, my God, there's people that say, I'll pay 600 bucks a night for that one, but only 250 a night for that one. They're both four bedrooms. The goal is to get your property to the condition that someone says, I'll pay whatever you want, right? And then once that one's off the market, that doesn't show up in the searches anymore. So now the ne, the next best property is the one they're going to say, I'll pay what they want. And then that's gone. And then the ne, Right. And so the idea is you're trying to jump your way up the amount of inventory that's out there to be more appealing to the buyers that are or the tenants, I guess in this case that are looking. We can't give you a number on what you're going to get. If you look like all the other ones. If it's just a basic, like say, cabin, in this case a brand new cabin that looks like all the other brand new cabins, there's no way anyone can tell you what it's going to make in a year because we don't know how many people are going to be visiting. That number goes up and down. But if we know your property would be one of the best ones, if it looked like this, we can pretty confidently say you're probably going to make 90k a year because you will continually be booked because you're in the upper echelon. Am I making sense with how I articulate that?
- [51:48]
B
Yeah, absolutely.
- [51:49]
A
Okay.
- [51:50]
B
And also I will say the person that asked me this was a real realtor trying to get projections for his client. So understandably so. But there are so many variables. And as how we do property management, we're not, we're not cookie cutter. We don't just. We need like, we need to come up with like a good analogy of like not like set it and forget it, but like list it and something else. I need you another word that rhymes with that. But we don't just list it.
- [52:18]
A
Synonymous with forget it.
- [52:20]
B
Yeah, Right. So we don't just list the property and say, okay, I mean if that's what the client wants, that's what the client wants. But that's not really our style to do that. And that's what people are used to. So that's why they're asking, just give me the number. And.
- [52:34]
A
And I saw a realtor who just wants to write an offer and his client says, well it rent for and the realtor doesn't know. And then you go to them and you're like, it depends. And that's not what they want to hear. They want the number. And that's what's so tricky about short term rentals, is there literally isn't one. Right. It's kind of like, man, if you make it really nice, it could get 40% more than you thought. But if it looks like everyone else might get half of what we thought, I mean, you were the one that just told me that. Compared to the same time last year, The Smokies have 30% less people visiting. Okay. Overall occupancy is down by 30% and last year was down considerably from where it was before. How do you predict that when someone says, give me a number. No one knew that in a year it would be 30% less than what it was before. And everyone is going to have to drop their price just to get something. And then you're still the same number. People are going, they're just paying less. So everybody's making less money in the Smokies.
- [53:31]
B
Yeah. And I think one of the things that if you're self managing isn't bad. I don't want people to hear me saying that because I self manage and right or wrong, depending on the market, but I am fully immersed in this every day to the point where I just told you. Last week I was talking to one of our cleaners and I was like, hey, are your bookings down? And they're like, yeah, we were slammed and all of a sudden it was nothing. And I talked to our cleaners, our handymen, our plumbers, our electricians, every single vendor that we work with. And not just the smoky market, but I mean, in South Florida we're having these conversations and, and they're such, those are the, our boots on the ground. So they're great people to have those conversations with. But if you're worse, you're working a desk job in it, you're not having these conversations. I don't, I don't care who you are. But like we've had a lot of people approach us and they think they know and some people do, I'll give them that. Some people know the markets really well. But you're not looking at the market trends and price labs every day. Like I am looking at what's booked, what's not booked. Should we book, be booked? Should we be concerned? Like most people aren't doing that and that's an advantage we have over other operators, I would say, or even self managing. And of course you can be a self manager and be looking at all those things. But when I had my short term rental a couple years ago, I didn't know this stuff. I put a base price in and I was like, oh yeah, I got to put in my minimum price. I'm good, right? And that's what most people are doing. I was that person where I was like, oh, okay, set it and forget it. This is what I was told by these influencers. This is what I have to do. Okay, I've got the schlage locks, I've got the ring cameras, I've got the. I'm using hospitable. Still use hospitable and of course, but like there's all those nuances, like you don't know those things. And that's what those influencers are also doing is getting on a soapbox here. But they're, they're showing you high level. Yeah. Okay. You can go into. Okay, put your, your property on Hospitable. Great. But they don't tell you all these other amazing features that Hospitable has to make your life easier and help you manage better, or Price Labs or any of the other systems that we're using. And if you're sitting at your work in it at a desk job, you're not looking at that stuff.
- [55:47]
A
No. You're seeing a check come in that's less than you thought. You're like, dang. Hopefully next month's better. I think that's the cycle that everybody's mostly in. Hopefully next month's better. And you ask your property manager and they have a canned response. Yeah, you know, gas prices are high, so less people are driving. Yeah. You know, the economy is a little low, so that's why you're not booking. Yeah. You know, I thought it was weird too. I think next month's gonna be better. You know, it's bad all around. That's what everyone's gonna say sometimes. That's true. But what they should be saying is, yeah, it's gonna be this way next month, too. Until we add this. Is that something we can do? Can we put a HELOC on the property to put some money into it to get it doing better and then pay off the HELOC with the money? And now you have a better profit property. Can we put a HELOC on a different property? Should we just sell this thing and start over? Because you're not going to be getting out of this pit. There's difficult conversations that I think need to be had that are not going to be had on the highlight reel pages like you said. Now, I thought this was great. If you guys want to check out some of the properties that Angela and I have been upgrading, you can see them@coasttocoastgetaways.com you could also follow my Instagram @David Green 24. And I've been posting some of our new stuff there. We also have a newsletter if you guys want to sign up for that. We talk about a property of the week that you can get at a discount. We share some of the upgrades we've been doing. We share design ideas, we share market data. But Angela, if somebody wants to contact you directly, where's the best place to go?
- [57:09]
B
I was about to give out my personal phone number and then I realized that was probably a bad idea.
- [57:14]
A
Maybe infoastocoast getaways.com. that's one way.
- [57:18]
B
Another way is our Instagram is CTC Getaways. I think those are probably the best. Two places are the email and Instagram.
- [57:25]
A
Instagram to get DM there.
- [57:28]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [57:29]
A
And if you're shy, you can go to davidgreen24.com use the chat option. Say, David, I'd like to talk to Angela. I'd like to talk to a loan officer. I'd like to talk to you guys about managing a property. I need some help with mine. We've had people from all over the world come to us, literally. We prefer them to be in America, but sometimes people want us to manage it. Sometimes people say, hey, what would you do to fix it? Sometimes people hire us to help design and give them, like a consultation. Sometimes something working on right now is if you want to manage your own property but you want us to help get more bookings, we will put it on coasttocoastgetaways.com and get you direct bookings from people that visit the site. And if you guys are listening to this and you own a short term rental, you definitely want to go to CTC Getaways on Instagram and dm. Angela. And here's why. We are putting together a system to reward people that don't hold owners hostage on Airbnb. So if you are what we call a better guest, you treat people's places with respect, you show up with reasonable expectations, you're not going to look for dust on a windowsill and say, this is ridiculous. I need 500. We want to reward you. We're putting together a system where if you book any of our properties through the Better Guest program, you will get a massive discount compared to what everybody else is paying. As long as you promise I'm going to be a good guest. So what we're looking to do is find the people that are better guests. We avoid all the OTA fees, which are killer. You get to put your property on here and get more direct bookings from people that aren't going to ask you for massive discounts, which eats up your profits. And then if you know you're a good person, you shouldn't get treated on Airbnb the same as everyone else. Who's a bad person. You should get a big discount because you're not going to come back and ask for money. We're trying to reward the better guests and the better host by creating a platform on CTC getaways where everybody can win. You were smiling there. Do you have anything you want to
- [59:19]
B
add on this No, I think. I think most of it probably goes unsaid with everything that you just mentioned.
- [59:26]
A
Well, if you guys don't know how this works, it's very common on Airbnb, especially in certain markets like the Smoky Mountains, where guests will show up and they paid fifteen hundred dollars for five days and then they want a eight hundred discount and they have to find something wrong with the property to justify it. So they show up and immediately send you pictures of everything that they can. They're going to go and, like, check all your air filters, they're going to look behind your washing machine and they're going to scour the deck to see if there's anywhere where there's dry rod or a loose screw and they can say, ah, we're going to go to Airbnb and we are going to complain. And now you're throwing $900 at these people to try to save a good review. And so you thought you got a 1500 dollars booking and you ended up with a 600 booking and you're stuck. I'd rather give that money to the, the person who stays in the form of a discount and not have the terrible experience and not lose the $900 and not pay Airbnb and VRBO a bunch of money to give me a bad experience as a host. I'd rather not pay them any money. Give that money directly to the person booking and then the person booking says, hey, if you're going to take care of me like that, I'm not going to hammer you for a discount. And all of us civilized, polite society folks can win and you can leave all the dirt bags to use these OTAs like Airbnb. So that's what we're working on. If you would like us to manage your property, if you would like to list your property there and get bookings through coast to coast getaways. If you just have questions about what the hell you could do when you feel alone and you need a therapist, we're here for you. So info@coastacoast.com or CTC Getaways on Instagram. Go. Follow us over there. DM Angela, she follows that account. Or you could go to davidgreen24.com hit the chat button button, be connected directly with me and I'll figure out how we could help you. Angela, thanks for joining me. We're going to be doing this again later. Any last words you want to leave everybody with?
- [61:15]
B
Yeah. I would just say if you have. If this sparked anything inside of you, if you're a short term rental operator or midterm operator, even reach, feel, reach out. There's no, there's no commitment. I, somebody just did this last week. They saw one of our posts and he said, I'm just kind of kicking the. He didn't say he was kicking the tires, but he just wanted some more information. And we had a really nice conversation about the market that he was in and what's working and what's not working. And I think those are always fruitful conversations to have even if we don't end up managing it. But it's really important to stay connected in those groups. So please don't be afraid to reach out. Even if you're brand new and you are this person that just bought a property in the Smoky Mountains and you have no idea where to start or what to do with it.
- [62:00]
A
Yeah, we can help you if you want to co host, we can help you if you want to stay involved, if you want to be hands off, off. We got something for everybody. But most importantly, I'd like to build up a network of short term rentals for all of the listeners that just want to visit anywhere in the country that they can have a great experience for a significant discount. And good people can treat good people good, which isn't going to happen unless we all band together. So we want to hear from you. Angela, thanks for joining me. Thank you for your help with these properties. Let's all keep fighting the good fight. I'll see y' all next week on the David Green Show.