← The David Greene Show
The David Greene Show
Mortgage Monday I The VA/FHA Loan Scam You Didn’t Know Existed I Episode 128
00:58:21
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- [00:00]
A
Welcome to Real Talk Real Estate, the show where we cover how to build wealth in real estate with no fluff, no BS and no sales pitches. I'm David Green and I've been doing this for over 10 years. I've seen the ups, the downs, and everything in between. This is the show where we pull back the curtain and show it to you too. So if you want to build wealth through real estate or you just love learning about it, you found your home. What's going on, everyone? Welcome to Real Talk Real Estate. This is Mortgage Monday and today we've got a treat for you. This is one of those shows we're going to be very glad that you subscribe to this podcast and you are following. Christian and I are going to be talking about not really a mortgage scam, but a way that you are absolutely paying more for your loan than what you have to and what you probably know that you were and because as far as I know, this is the only podcast that shares what goes on behind the curtain of the industry, whether it's a real estate sales first firm, a brokerage, a loan brokerage like this property management guys, I see all of the scams happening all over the place. I see them with short term rental management. In fact, we're not going to talk about today, but I started managing one of Christian's properties and found out, Christian, one of the reasons why your property was in rough shape because you didn't talk to the manager, what he was doing, that's pretty shady. These are the things we talk about on Real Talk Real Estate. And today we've got a great one. Christian and I were at a dinner with some other brokers at a topic came up that I found fascinating that these guys talk about all the time because they know about it. And I realize we're not bringing this to the people. So that's what we're going to be doing today. We're blowing the lid off. And after today's show, you will not want to just go with whoever you are recommended when it comes to a loan, specifically if it's a specialty type loan, you're going to want to talk to us first to make sure you're not getting ripped off. Christian, how is that for building up the suspension expense of the show?
- [01:52]
B
Yeah, it's good and it's, it's funny. I see this as being actually the next, the next gnar lawsuit. Right. We talked a lot about this show with the, with the agents, right? Who, who got into the, the lawsuit with the national association of Realtors and you know, a couple of the big brokerages. Basically the, the, you know, moral of the lawsuit was, you know, unfair compensation. Right. Preset with, with clients. I would not be surprised if in the next few months there's a, there's a equal lawsuit appearing on the lending side against this structure of lenders that we're going to speak about today and how they are ultimately they're taking advantage of borrowers 100% and it's specifically catered towards borrowers that are protected class. Right Veterans, first time home buyers. I'm excited to break into. This has been something that's, that's been in kind of the shadows of the industry for a while. I'm excited to kind of blow the lid off here for sure.
- [02:48]
A
And we're bringing it to the light. So you guys are gonna be glad you subscribed. All right, before we do, your background looks a little different. Tell me, why am I seeing this and not the blank drywall of your apartment?
- [03:01]
B
We are, we are in a new office. So super excited to share. We're starting to expand the physical footprint of the one brokerage across the country. Country. This office is in Woodland Hills, Southern California. And I'm sure you're going to see about us if you follow us on, on all of our social. Soon. We're looking for people to work in this office. So we got a new place right on Ventura Boulevard for any of you guys who, who, who, who, who come from Southern California, you know where that is. We're excited about it.
- [03:31]
A
Right.
- [03:31]
B
We just moved in, so it's still a little rough, but we're gonna have some, some cool decorations around. We're gonna have some cool backgrounds and some content with me and David in person. Here's coming up soon. So exciting.
- [03:40]
A
That's right. So if you are a loan officer, if you're a real estate agent, if you're a property manager, if you're a fan, if you're anyone involved in real estate and you're considering taking your career further. So maybe you want better training, you want a better brokerage to work at. You're tired of the job you have and you want to get into real estate. We're actually looking to build a sort of a new starting from the ground up, a new team. We want people that want to be in an office. We want people that want to get good training. We want people that say create Christian David, how do I become better at serving clients? Not Christian David, how can you help me to get a bunch of money with real estate? That I don't have to work for. That's what you want, that's great. Probably want to take somebody else's course. But if you actually want to get your hands dirty, get a little bit elbow grease going on, learn how to be good at what you do and protect clients, we want you. So if you're in the Southern California area, please do reach out to us. We'll give our contact information at the end of the show. And if you're not in the Southern California area, that's okay. We are still hiring remote. We currently have things remote. We have zoom meetings constantly, all the time. You guys might have heard that little bloop. That was Christian's discord going off. That was someone asking a question about loans or a processor answering a question about an update. We have lightning fast responses between all of our people, which is one of the reasons that we close loans quickly. Christian, I just want to ask about the one brokerage you worked at, a brokerage before we built this one. In a nutshell, what would you say makes this brokerage a better option for loan officers and for clients?
- [05:06]
B
Yeah, it's funny, I tell loan officers this all the time. You know, we built this company to be really the backbone of what I wish I had when I entered the industry. Super refined processes, you know, systems to get loans, you know, through the pipeline quickly. Obviously not as perfect, you know, you run into underwriting, whatnot, but significant support for loan officers so that they can be, you know, where it matters. On the phone with their clients, generating more business, giving better service. Right. So systems, number one, a huge strength of this company is training, getting access to people like myself, people like David, people like our other experienced loan officers to learn what you don't know. Right. There's so much in this industry, I mean, we talk a lot about on the show, loan products. You know, we do commercial loans. People forget that. Right. We do primary residences, obviously, we do investment stuff. There are a lot of products in the loan industry. And if our clients are listening, you guys know, because I've taken you through the. The whole plethora of stuff that we offer on our discovery calls. Right? There's a lot. I mean, we've brought in loan officers that have been in the industry 20 years who've never funded more than half of the products that we offer. They've never funded them. Right. And that's pretty crazy that you can have an industry with a 20 year experience veteran who hasn't seen half of it. Right. Think of what other industry you can Experience that in. Right. An electrician. There's no way an electrician works for 20 years and doesn't see half of what the industry has.
- [06:28]
A
Right.
- [06:29]
B
But mortgages are unique. There's a lot of people that need a lot of different things, whether they're investors, first time home buyers, veterans, FHA borrowers, HELOCs, commercial properties. There's a lot. And to round this out, David, the benefit that we provide here is we do everything and we teach on it. Right. And if you're a loan officer that's looking to grow your knowledge and expertise and skill set, I'm convinced there's not a better place in the industry than what we're building here at the one brokerage.
- [06:57]
A
But if you're a loan officer that wants to rip people off or make as much money as you can per loan so you do less volume but make more money, you would hate us. All right, let's get into today's show.
- [07:05]
B
Perfect segue.
- [07:06]
A
We're going to start high level and I'm going to try to niche it down. And then I'm going to ask you to correct me if I said anything wrong. Yeah. Loans basically break up into two categories. You've got conventional and you've got unconventional. We're talking about mortgage loans. Conventional loans would be your Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac products. This is just what you usually think of when you're like, I'm going to get a 30 year mortg. We call them conventional. Then there's also a form of conventional that's va, there's a form that's fha, and there's a form that's usda. And all that we mean by conventional is the federal government insures and subsidizes these loans so you get better rates. So they looked at the whole span of the market and said, hey, we want these specific people to get a better rate than they would get if they went unconventional, which is kind of like private. Okay, so you got like private money sources that can lend their money and then you've got the government ones. The unconventional loans would be stuff like DSCR loans, fix and flip loans, bridge loans, hard money loans. I mean, there's any big ones that I'm missing in that category.
- [08:10]
B
Yep. I mean, commercial can be commercial.
- [08:12]
A
Thank you.
- [08:13]
B
A form of conforming commercial debt. But yeah, all the. The big one is dser. That's.
- [08:17]
A
There you go. That's what you usually hear of when you think of unconventional. And again, you made a good point. Commercial loans can be conventional or conforming. Those are Synonymous for today's conversation means they conform to conventional standards. Or they could be unconventional, meaning some private person's given out their money. You can have portfolio loans. You can have HELOCs. These are usually loans that banks give out that are usually not conventional. Now, the way that I look at it, if the government is giving you a better rate, it's because they want to give you a special benefit. FHA loans are for basically people that are buying a house that they want to live in, not rent out. And if your credit score is a little bit lower or what are like low down payment, they're trying to give you a better interest rate than you would get if you went private and you only had three and a half percent to put down. USDA loans are because they want to encourage lending in rural areas where the unconventional lenders don't really want to touch it. They don't understand how that works. They don't understand that cows can also be on a property that scares them. They want a track home because it's easier to run a comp on if they have to foreclose on it. So they stay away. So the government goes, hey, farmers, rural folks, we're going to help you out. Then you've got VA loans, which the obvious answer is they go through the Department of Veteran Affairs. They give you a huge benefit because you served in the military. Now, before we go any deeper, Christian, can you just kind of explain what some of the benefits of a VA loan are?
- [09:40]
B
Yeah, VA loan's the best loan in the country. I've said it multiple times on this show and back when we were on Biggerpockets as well. Zero percent down. There's no pmi. And there is not a loan product in America with a better interest rate.
- [09:51]
A
What's a, what's pmi? For those that don't know, yeah.
- [09:54]
B
PMI is mortgage insurance. It's basically the, the tax you pay for putting less than 20% down and having the lender have a risky loan, basically. Right.
- [10:02]
A
So you've got 0% down on a VA loan, which you mentioned, and then you're not being penalized for putting 0% down. They're also waiving the, the private mortgage insurance that you normally have to pay.
- [10:12]
B
Yeah. And just like you said, David, they do that because VA loans are heavily subsidized by the American government. Right. That's done intentionally as a benefit to veterans, which they should get. Like, thank you for your service, everybody. Right, Here's a great mortgage product. Right. And obviously the, the American government Picks up the bill, which, you know, we talk a lot about what the American government should and shouldn't be spending money on. I'm a big proponent of spending money on veterans. That's a great place for money to go. Right. And that one of the ways that they get that is in the VA mortgage for sure.
- [10:41]
A
And if you are, or no, a veteran, you're going to really want to pay attention today's show, and you're probably going to want to share this with somebody else. Now, here's what goes on. Just like we heard of with the leering center, just like we've heard about with the fraud going on in California and Minnesota. The. The pattern is that the government comes up with a program to help people. The politicians get elected by saying, we want to help you. So we're going to take money from Peter, we going to give it to Paul because Paul needs it more. That is not inherently wrong. Where it falls apart is the pattern is we come up with a program, we then give this the right to disseminate it to private individuals. And that's where the fraud happens. So we saw this in Minnesota, where I think it was Medicare fraud was going on, where they say, hey, if you're taking. Actually, that might have been the California one. Was the, the Minnesota thing was probably like the daycare thing, right?
- [11:40]
B
Yeah. So autism care in California was hospice and home health.
- [11:44]
A
There you go. So in a nutshell, if you just, you've heard of the Nick Shirley studies or you kind of see the thumbnails, but you haven't paid attention, let's say that Minnesota says, hey, we want to offer free child care or discounted child care to our Minnesota residents so that they can go get a job, they can work, and they don't have to worry about paying a ton of money for child care. Well, there was the small community, but I'm sure other people are doing it, too, that were claiming that they were babysitting kids that they weren't. So they were telling the federal, federal government, hey, we have 50 kids that we're watching, pay us this much per kid. But nobody was dropping off their kids. The program was intended to help the public. The person in charge of disseminating that was ripping off the public. They were keeping the money for themselves. Same thing going on in California where people were billing Medicaid or they were billing, say, I'm taking care of a dying person. So I get money from the government for doing this. And some of these people are living over five years, which nobody should be On Hostage for that long. The program itself is not the problem. The government meant good when it meant the program. The problem is the shady people that were allowed to disseminate it. And there was no oversight of those people. Now, there's some conspiracy theories, or maybe non conspiracy theories, but there's some theories that the reason the government did not watch what was going on is it wanted the votes from those communities. So, hey, we kind of know, we've heard rumblings that they're ripping people off, but we want them to vote for us, so we're not going to look into it. Okay? Gavin Newsom is catching a lot of heat in California for this. Tim Waltz is catching a lot of heat in Minnesota for this. They're the governors now. Why am I bringing up fraud on a mortgage show? Well, the pattern is the same that Christian and I are going to be talking about today. The VA loan and the FHA loan, but particularly the VA loan, are meant to benefit the person getting the loan. Now, how do you benefit a person getting a loan? You allow them to put less money down. You allow them to get a loan that they normally couldn't get if their credit wasn't good enough. You give them a better interest rate and you give them lower fees. I miss anything there?
- [13:46]
B
No, that's exactly right.
- [13:47]
A
All right, now I'm gonna let you take over, Christian. Explain how what these cheaper loans, like you said, the VA loan is the cheapest loan in the loan industry, is supposed to be given to veterans with all those benefits that I just described. They're still letting you have the low down payment and the low credit score requirements. They can't shift that. But the fees and the rates, those are actually a little subjective. Lenders can choose what they charge. So explain how the racket goes on and how the veterans are getting ripped off.
- [14:17]
B
Yeah, this is, we say a lot of times, like nobody else talking about this. This is probably the best kept secret in mortgages.
- [14:25]
A
And this could get us canceled if the wrong people find out we're talking about this.
- [14:28]
B
100, 100. So I want to say that with a preface here that if you're a mini correspondent lender, you're not gonna like this. All the clients should love this. And that's who we do this for. So in lending, there, there's a very small subset of the industry that over the last five to 10 years has just massively expanded. And it's basically done with one core reason in mind, and that's a broker like us going to the lender who Funds their loans. So let's just use some names to draw this equivalent. We're the one brokerage, let's say, one of the big lenders that everybody recognizes, let's say Rocket Mortgage. Right. On super bowl ads, everybody knows Rocket Mortgage. Right. We have a, we have a partnership with Rocket Mortgage. We can offer their loans for cheaper than if you go to Rocket Mortgage yourself because we get access to their wholesale division. Same concept of shopping at Costco. Right. What these lenders typically will do is they will generate a standard rate sheet. That's just their baseline of what costs cost today based on which rate on that rate sheet you sell. The loan officer could have enough profit there for Rocket to pay me to originate that deal. Okay. Without charging the borrower. That's a great thing. This is the core concept as to why brokers can be competitive. The bank is willing to pay us to do your mortgage and we don't charge as much as Rocket Mortgage. Right. Rocket Mortgage has mountains and mountains of, you know, hierarchy that they have to compensate. We don't. It's me and David.
- [16:01]
A
So what that means is if somebody goes to Rocket Mortgage's website and they're like, ooh, that's a really good rate. They think that they're getting a good deal, but they're actually going to pay more for the same loan that if they went to us and then we brokered it to Rocket. And you have a great analogy because people have said, well, you're the middleman. I'm cutting you out. You're like, no, no, no, I'm Costco. You're coming to me because I sell in bulk and I get better prices because I go in bulk. When you go directly to the website, that's like going to 7 11, you're going to pay the same price for a soda that I pay for a six pack.
- [16:33]
B
Yeah. And the way, the way I typically explain that I think really ties the, the understanding home because a lot of people ask, like, why would I use. I don't want to pay a broker fee. I don't want to pay you to just do what I can do. Going straight to Rocket Mortgage. And I think there's a misunderstanding because people think brokers are like kayak, the tribal service. Right. Or where you have a third party company go and, or Priceline or Travelocity. Right. All these travel agencies where they charge you a fee to go book your plane, your hotel and your, your rental car. Right. And they charge you a small fee to do that and they have their agreements with the hotels and whatnot. What we do is I'm like, kayak, if I go learn to fly the plane, if I go manage the hotel, check in, and I rent you your rental car at a, you know, Enterprise or Hertz or something, right? I actually do the job that I'm placing you for. So instead of taking you to a Rocket mortgage loan officer and having that loan officer do his job that he would normally do if he went directly to them, I replace them, right? So it's a little different. It's not just a bro, you're not just a middleman. You're actually replacing the service that the lender would do otherwise. And that's why there's margin in broker loans, because they don't have to pay those people otherwise. They don't pay their own processors, their own loan originators. That comes to us instead. And obviously the goal is for us to do it cheaper than the bank would charge directly. That's why brokers are have a place in the industry now. When a broker grows to a certain volume, they start getting relentlessly pitched to go and become what's called a correspondent lender. And just to explain how this works now, instead of me sending a loan to Rocket and they fund it and pay me, I go get my own line of credit and I lend my own money. Now we have this. We have our own line of credit. As the one brokerage, what I found is what the industry is doing is very wrong. They're going and getting their own lines, but simultaneously having Rocket underwrite it. So say, hey, Rocket, we still want you to do this loan. We just want to pretend like it's us funding it. This, I kid you not, this is how it happens. The broker takes it through the process and funds the paper. Rocket buys it 24 hours later. Semantics. All it really leads to is the broker can eat up as much margin on the loan as they want. The only benefit of going correspondent is that you can charge more.
- [18:55]
A
So me, I'll break this down. And then. So hold your thought. Remember where you were. There are regulations that say a broker like us cannot charge a different rate to Bob than we charge to Tim. Because maybe Tim's a different race or he's a different gender, or he's a different sexual orientation or different religion. So you have these. They're not fair housing laws, but they kind of work the same way that compensation, consumer protection. There you go. That they need to be the same rates and fees for everybody. You can't be like, oh, this guy looks stupid. They don't know anything. We're going to charge him more. This, I believe happened during the Dodd Frank era, after the last collapse, 2010, when people are getting ripped off. And that caused us to look at the mortgage industry and be like, what the hell's going on? This is the Wild West. These are a bunch of cowboys running around ripping everyone off. These people didn't speak English. These people were at right. We need to fix this. This is part of what happens. They made very rigid lanes that lenders cannot move out of if they are brokering loans conventional, because the government can control the rules of if you want a conventional loan that we're insuring, you play by our rules. They don't really do the same thing for unconventional loans. That's still a wild West. Whatever they can get away with, they can get away with. A good broker will explain to you your options and say, this is why I'm recommending this one. All right, so look at it like, if we go conventional, which is the best rate you could get, we have to go in the front door. They everyone sees exactly what we're doing. If we do something shady, boop. The metal detector goes off immediately. You can't sneak that bad thing into this loan. You're getting caught. That creates a dilemma for loan officers because if we want to give you a really good rate, we got to make less money. So if we have a marketing department that's blasting, hey, hey, do a loan with us, and we also want to give you a good rate, there's not a lot of money left to pay the guy doing the loan. So you probably get Dingleberry Bob over there who sucks at loans because that's the only way he can get leads. And that's the problem with the online industry. We're explaining why it's so painful every time you try to get a mortgage by people. Now, let's say you want a high quality loan officer. You want a person who comes in and they're really good, they're really sharp, they know their stuff, they know their products, they have integrity, they call you back, they've got a solid system, they're going to charge more per loan, which is going to equal a higher rate or higher fee. Now, in previous shows, we've talked about how there's a shell game where they can say, well, our rates are really good, but they don't tell you that their fees are sucky, or our fees are really low, but they don't tell you that their rates are high. We've explained how that thing works well. This is even above that. This is the overall money that can be made. The more you want to make as a loan officer, the higher the rate's going to be for the client. This puts the clients in a tough bind, because if you want the best rate, you get the worst service, you lose your. Your deposit, you lose the deal, or you get ripped off in some other way. Now, what Christian is describing here is a system where instead of the lender funding the deal, they send their money to the closing table and then they pay us for doing all the underwriting and finding the client explaining how it works to the client, because they don't want to do that. We actually. Or, sorry, the broker could use their own money, which isn't really their money. It's a line of credit that they're sponsored for, but they do the loan with their own money, they fund it with their money, then they sell it to Rocket right after. The trick is we're saying Rocket, but it could be any lender. They saw the deal before we even closed on it. So it's like, yeah, wink, wink. You're going to use your money. 24 hours later, we're going to buy it. It's the same as if we used our own money. We're going to underwrite it the exact same way. But while this may seem silly, what it does is it allows you to avoid the front door where the metal detector is and allows you to go in the back door or the side door where no one's looking at what you're charging on that loan. The regulation happens when you get it directly. The money comes from the lender. But when it's your money, and then it's sold to the lender on the secondary market, there's nobody watching what goes on. And that allows for. What Christian is about to describe is the travesty that we see happening to veterans, fha lone people, and others that are supposed to be getting the benefits, benefit. So thanks for letting me break that down.
- [23:05]
B
Yeah, no, perfect. And so packaging together these two things, we. We led off by saying VA FHA borrowers have access to lower interest rates, better terms, and that's a subsidy that comes from the American government that in theory is supposed to be passed to
- [23:19]
A
the borrower of that was the intention. Right. We pass a law, we're like, let's give veterans better rates and let's give them lower fees to thank them for out there serving our country.
- [23:29]
B
That's exactly right. Now, let me explain how it works in the one Brokerage and other true brokers. And then I'll explain how these correspondent lenders have kind of muddied the water. When you come into us, we have an agreement with, I'm using Rocket Mortgage in this example. Let's continue using that. We have an agreement with Rocket Mortgage that no matter what the loan type is, we have a fixed commission structure. We make the same amount. Like David said, if you're black, white, gay, straight, married, unmarried, in Kansas, in la, doesn't matter. We make, we have the same agreement with the lender. That never changes. Now we can go down. If we need to help a borrower qualify or they don't have enough funds to close, we can always agree to drop our commission. But the important part is that we cannot go up, we cannot say, hey Rocket, we usually make 2% of the loan amount with you on this one because this borrower is going to be a specifically difficult loan. We want to make sure 4%, right? We cannot do that. That is illegal. It's against the cfpb, the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. They have laws in place to prevent this. Like David said, that emanated in, in 202008 after the, the housing crash and brokers used to make like 8, 9% on the loan. It's crazy. Like they said, it's like wild, wild west, right? So what these correspondent letters do is they go over to Rocket and they say, hey, we're going to fund this loan with our own line of credit. You agree to buy it right away, but we're going to change what rates we can offer. As a broker, as we are where we fund the majority of our loans, we do not have access to manipulating your rate sheet. The only lever, because we're coming in
- [25:04]
A
the front door, the metal detector would go off right away.
- [25:08]
B
Financial metal detector. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. So now instead what they say is say, hey, all of these subsidies that happen on VA loans, well, the average 30 year fix, you guys can practice this. Go Google the average 30 year fixed loan, it's like 6.2 to 6.5 right now depending on if you read bank rate, mortgage wallet, bigger pockets, whatever you go to for your, your mortgage data, it's about 6.2 to 6.5. The average VA loan right now is down in the fives, 5, 7, 5 to 5, 8. So there's about a half a percent, if not larger spread between 30 year fixed loans, conventional and an F and a FHA or a VA loan. What these correspondent lenders say is oh, we're just going to give the veteran the same rate as the conventional loan. And all of that government subsidizing that is supposed to be a benefit to veterans is just going to come to us. We're just going to eat that up. So I kid you not, guys, there are lenders out there that say we make four points on a VA loan and we make a point and a half and a point is 1% of your loan amount. That's my commission that I would get.
- [26:09]
A
Sorry, let me, let me take a real number. Hold your thought on that. Let me break down what you said. Then we're going to have you actually walk people through it. The government is saying we're going to give you lower fees and lower rate because you're a VA borrower, you're an FHA borrower, you're a USDA borrower. And then they're going to the people like us and saying, guys, here's the loans. You go sell them to the people. We don't want to have to hire a government person to explain a loan because the government sucks at everything. So we're going to trust you to do it. We go explain it to them. However, we are allowed to set our own compensation. So if you're selling a conventional loan and then the, let's say the average PAR rate is 6.3, we sell a 6.3. If we can sell a 6.5 and you're willing to pay more for it, we still can't get paid more for that. You're going to get the extra money back on your rate. We get the same no matter what it is that we're charging here. Okay, we can then say if we're unscrupulous, hey, the going rate is 5, 8. But I'm not going to tell you that. I'm going to tell you the going rate is 6, 3, because that's what it is for conventional loans. And you don't know that VA is supposed to be less, which means I can now the money that should have gone to you because I think a lot of people don't understand that the lower the rate is, the more money that you, you have to pay to get it. So we're giving you a worse rate, which means theoretically extra money should be coming to you. But we siphon it and we take it for ourselves. We don't tell you that we could have done your loan at a lot less. We don't tell you that the government intended for you to get the better rate. We just make the loan More expensive and keep it ourselves. Which only works if we fund it and then we sell it to the lender afterwards. You can't get away with this if you're walking in the front door. And that's what I think you were starting to show off by explaining how this like the mini correspondent line works. And this is going to piss off a lot of our followers that are doing this exact tactic. Okay, we're not trying to piss you guys off, we're just trying to let the public know that this can happen. Now obviously this does not mean every single correspondent lender is ripping people off. Okay, but, but it does mean if you want to make sure you're not getting ripped off, there's a certain person you can look for. Now we're going to talk about that after you explain a real life numbers breakdown of what a loan would cost if the discount was passed on to the borrower versus what it would cost if the lend, the loan officer took the money themselves and gave them a more expensive loan.
- [28:44]
B
Yeah, exactly. Right, so let's compare a loan the clean way. This is going through the metal detector at the one brokerage, right? Vs somebody going in the back door. A VA loan. Let's say we're going to compare a 5.75 rate. Okay, so let's say it's a $500,000 loan. I'm going to do my calculator right now. 5.75 rate, your principal and interest here. We can log these down. Okay guys, so first, first scenario, let's say we have a 500k mortgage, okay. We're going to assume it should be at a 5.75 rate. So this is a VA mortgage. Okay, if we were honest. Not if. Right. When the one brokerage is honest. The monthly payment, we're not going to include taxes and insurance, just the principal and interest would be 2917. Okay? You would pay no points. Borrower points are zero, so you wouldn't have to pay for that rate. This is just an example. Obviously I'm not quoting any of you guys here live, but this is a scenario, right? Let me compare and then I, the broker would make 2 points paid by the lender. Okay, so this is 2 points of 500k is $10,000 the broker would make doing that. Right. And you don't have to pay a dollar that would be paid by rocket mortgage in this example. The second scenario is the nefarious one. Same exact scenario, 500k VA mortgage, except me as the broker. I'm going to tell you the average rate is 6.5% which is the 30 year fixed average right now. Okay, 5.6.5% rate. Your monthly payment there would be 3160, that's what, $250. Close to more expensive every month. The borrower points are still zero and broker would make four points which is 20,000. This is the exact scenario that's happening in the correspondent world. You still see these four points and you say wow, great, I'm not paying any points for my loan. And I just googled bank rate, what the 30 year fixed average mortgage rate is and I see it's six and a half percent. What you don't know is that broker is kicking you up from what the VA minimum would be otherwise and is doubling his commission.
- [31:07]
A
Now the reason this works, if you don't understand loan compensation is the higher of an interest rate that the broker can get you at, the more they can sell that loan for to someone else.
- [31:17]
B
Correct.
- [31:18]
A
Because anybody, if I'm buying a loan from you, Christian, and it's at a 3% interest rate, I don't want it as much as if it's at a 6% interest rate, I'm collecting double the money. So the way the loan industry works is the higher of a rate you can sell somebody at, the more you can make selling that loan to someone else. Now in our world we're limited. If we increase the rate then the fees will actually come down.
- [31:44]
B
Yeah, this, let me, let me illustrate this David. So third scenario is if we did this, if done correctly, okay. This is if it's done compliantly how it should be. I'm going to replicate the second scenario. 500k VA mortgage, six and a half points. Let's just copy here. Oops. So same concept here. Okay. We have a 500kba mortgage, six and a half rate, borrower points would be negative two. This means you would get a lender credit of 10k. So all of you guys who have here who have heard no closing cost loans will finance your closing costs. No, your borrower doesn't have to pay anything. This is how they would do it. They would take your rate at 5.75. That costs you nothing. And they would take you up to six and a half and the lender would pay you $10,000 to do that and you would still have the same monthly payment. Okay. The difference here is because these brokers have found creative ways to call themselves the lender. And guys, a court. If you ever hear like a correspondent or a mini correspondent lender or a Non delegated correspondent. These are all just these BS terms. These are brokers pretending to be lenders. That's all this is. They are not actual lenders. They are co originating a loan side by side with the real lender and they're doing that so that they can crack into the margins of the loan and make more money. There is objectively no benefit to the borrower.
- [33:28]
A
So explain that. This is a marketing scheme, right?
- [33:30]
B
It is, it is. It's so they, it's, it's so the lender, the broker can come in here and say, hey, all of these points right here, that should go to the borrower. In this case, if I give them a six and a half right now there's 10. I don't know why this keeps. I'm clicking my thing two times. Sorry about that, guys. But in this scenario right here, our third scenario, okay, what the lender is saying is there is $10,000 additional credit available here.
- [33:58]
A
We call it yield spread because the rate is higher.
- [34:02]
B
Because the rate is so you should
- [34:03]
A
be entitled to money back because you're paying a higher rate.
- [34:07]
B
And the brokers are seeing that and say, ooh, well this veteran had low credit and he was kind of a pain in the butt to work with. And you know, he's got some money in the bank, so I don't really feel too bad for him. I'd prefer to go make that $10,000 for me and my family instead.
- [34:24]
A
Or maybe that none of those are the reasons. They just want more money. They want to do a loan for a higher margin so they don't tell the person the rate I'm giving you is higher, but if I can get you on the higher rate, that 10 grand is going to go to me instead of you. Hey, I sold you on it. All's fair in business. And the veteran had no idea that they didn't have to pay that higher rate. And to your point, the reason this works is there's a bunch of guys on YouTube and Instagram saying, hey, are you a veteran? Watch my channel. I'm here for military guys. And if you want the benefits of the VA loan, I'll put you in touch with the VA expert. And so the guys that are not financially smart, like the people listen to our channel, go, oh wow, a 0% down loan. You're going to help me. This is amazing. And then you quote them the rate and they go, yeah, that's the same as what I'm seeing everywhere else. This smells right. And then they close on it having no Idea they were supposed to get more benefits than what they got.
- [35:20]
B
Yeah. And the lender is eating up all the government subsidy that's intended for you. It's the same thing about the Leering center in Minnesota and all these hospices in California. All that money that is intended to be given to borrowers and in, you know, hospice ideas, you know, customers and clients, is instead being eaten up by the person providing that service. It's the exact same thing. When we talk about fraud in Minnesota and California, it's the same exact thing, except these have protections. All mortgages have all these really refined protection systems that were built for brokers. And over the last five, 10 years, they have found ways to call themselves non brokers. And I don't need to call out names, but I guarantee you guys, these are big brokerage companies that you guys have heard the names of. A lot of you have probably worked with them. It's, it's companies. We've had people in the one brokerage who have asked us to do this and we have said no. And they have gone to work with those companies and now they're charging 4% to do a VA loan and the borrower has no idea. We have people who have asked to come on board with us that have said, hey, I have this agreement over here where I can kind of make whatever I can get away with. Will you guys allow me to do that if I join the one brokerage? And we have told them, no, absolutely not. We are following the rules. We are compliant with the, the cfpb, the Consumer and Financial Protection Bureau. We do not believe in doing that because you're eating up the government subsidies. That is fraud. In my opinion. That is no better than fraud. Right. It's, it's the same concept. You're eating up the subsidy that was intended to be passed to people like first time homebuyers and veterans and, you
- [36:55]
A
know, everybody getting the USDA loan where they want to go out there and start a farm and like populate an area that doesn't have a lot going on. Yeah, we're trying to incentivize that behavior. That's why we're giving these people these benefits. And it's killing the incentive because we're just making more money for the same exact amount of work by the loan officer.
- [37:15]
B
That's exactly right. If you guys ever want to practice this, you should ask, you should ask your lender to quote you an FHA loan compared to a conventional loan. If the rate on the FHA is not lower, you're getting scammed.
- [37:26]
A
Now that can only happen if they are able to use these correspondent lines, is that correct?
- [37:31]
B
Yeah, if they're a broker they can't because you're capped. So if I can only make 2% on any loan and one loan is objectively a cheaper interest rate at that point that pays me the 2%. It's going to be a cheaper rate. It has to be.
- [37:45]
A
Yeah.
- [37:45]
B
And I know obviously this may be a little high level for people who haven't seen rate sheets and customers who don't understand how kind of the back end works but all I'm saying is this guys my imagine I'm a car dealership, I make a thousand dollars no matter what car I sell. If I sell one car at 30,001 at 40,000 I still make a thousand bucks. But I'm telling you, hey, if I can convince you to buy the thirty thousand dollar car for forty grand, my car dealership is going to let me make that extra ten grand. That's money that should be passed on to you. That's money that you should just be able to buy a cheaper car instead. I'm eating up the margin because I agreed to sell you a $40,000 or a $30,000 car for 40,000. It's the same concept. The difference is this is illegal. And that's why I believe I start off the show by saying I think this is going to be the next gnar lawsuit against correspondent brokers. And I'm super excited that we do not do this because I think there will be some big names into the industry. They get some smacked wrist here now you know, probably be something similar realtors or is anybody really going to go down for it? Who knows. But I, I really hope this gains traction because I believe in protecting our veterans and our first time home buyers and not making it more difficult for them to buy. These loan products are subsidized to incentivize homeownership for these, these classes of people. They should be able to tap into that and not have their greedy broker eat up the entire margin that was intended to be passed to them.
- [39:07]
A
What's crazy about this is that the guys selling these more expensive loans are able to trick the consumer into thinking they're getting a better deal just by the way that they're presenting the information. So they can go out there and be like well here's my competition, here's what his rate is, here's what mine is. They're just not telling you that the rate that they showed you of Their competition had, like, almost like, really high closing costs or something like that. They're hiding it so no one knows they're getting ripped off. When they're getting ripped off, they can't know. It is impossible to know. And I think a lot of people would say, well, what's the point of doing this if you don't Even if I got ripped off and I didn't even know it then, why should I even try? It's a bad attitude. You should put the effort into making sure you're working with an honest person, not the effort into thinking that you outsmarted your loan officer. Let me give you an example, Christian. Have you ever bought a new car before?
- [39:59]
B
I have.
- [39:59]
A
Okay. Have you ever walked out of the dealership after negotiating with them over price, feeling like, dude, I got that guy. I totally took him. Sure, yeah, we all have. Do you know that they're thinking the same thing about us when we walk out?
- [40:14]
B
Of course.
- [40:15]
A
My theory is nobody ever rips off a dealership. Okay? They made you think that you ripped them off because you needed to feel good about the deal. You got to give them your money. You don't know where. They had all kinds of ways they made money. They had the sticker price, then they had refunds, and they had, well, we sell this many cars, we get it at a better price. That all kinds of stuff you didn't know about, they got you on something else. They're never going to tell you because they need you to think you won. And the bigger of an ego that a person has, the easier it is to trick them. Have you ever seen a guy at a bar or a hotel lobby or at a nice restaurant with a woman that was objectively way more attractive than him, and you just thought, what the heck's going on there?
- [40:57]
B
Sure, I've been that guy.
- [40:58]
A
Okay. Those women are very good at making you think that they like you for you. They don't tell you what they're doing. They're good at it. That guy might not be stupid. He's bewitched. The person going in the dealership is not stupid. They don't understand the game they're playing. People go to loan officers, and the guy seems really nice. He's really friendly. And oftentimes in life, we mistake friendly, friendly for good. We mistake nice for a good person. Some of the best people I've ever met, if I'm just being straightforward to you, that would have my back in bad situations are kind of a holes. They aren't friendly. Okay. A Lot of my friendly guys that I knew when I was a cop did not come running when I needed help. It's often the people you don't think would have your back that when the chips are down, they show up. Personalities are not indications of honesty and goodness. They're a reflection of what you've been through in life.
- [41:54]
B
Life.
- [41:55]
A
Some of the meanest a holes in the world are that way because people took advantage of them and they have these big walls that they put up, but they don't want someone else to be taken advantage of like they were. So when you need help, they're the first person there. It is so easy when you're new in real estate to be like, wow, that real estate agent's so nice. He has a nice car, he dresses nice, his smile's perfect. He. He's always so. He tells me good things about me. Yeah. He sees a $25,000 paycheck sitting above your head, and he'll say whatever he needs to say. Right. Versus the one. Like, when I was an agent, I don't know that I was the nicest person ever. Sometimes I was like, I think that's a stupid idea. I don't think you should buy that house. No, I don't think you should go for the track home with the house right next door to it where there's a billion of them. I do think you should go for that outdated, ugly house that has a foundation problem that we can fix for $10,000, but it's a unique custom home with a ton of land and there's nothing like it. And there's a workshop back that it's really hard to find. I had people tell me, I feel like you're crushing my dreams. And maybe I was, because you had the wrong dream. If your dream was to be financially ahead, that's the wrong house. So I just want everyone to understand. No one's going to tell you this. The guys doing it don't want you to hear about it. The marketing companies that are pushing their products to get in front of you, they don't want you to hear this information. The loan officers that are really nice, that are the most fun, that show up with a bunch of sandwiches for a lunch and learn, and they're really nice to you, they usually don't have the best rates. The guys that are doing the best business, that are the most honest, that are the best. What they do, they're probably like a cave troll locked away somewhere, barely seeing sunlight because they're fighting with the lenders to get your loan through and they're pushing to get you better rates. And they're really busy because their rates are lower because they want to help you and they're trying to train people to help them with what's going on. You don't see these guys. You got to know somebody that knows them. Now, we obviously want people to use us, Christian, but if somebody isn't at that point yet, do you have a piece of advice you can offer the listener for what to ask or what to look for so they can try to figure out, am I going through the front door or am I going through a side door?
- [44:05]
B
Yeah, it's a good question. I think getting multiple quotes helps. If you are in one of the classes we discussed today, veteran, first time home buyer, an FHA loan, you're in a heightened risk class, right. Of lenders taking advantage of you 100% guaranteed. Doesn't mean they are get multiple quotes. You're welcome to call us and ask us our opinion.
- [44:37]
A
Well, what can you ask outside of what's your rate, what's your fees? They should ask for both. That's the thing we tell people all the time, don't ask one or the other. But additionally, what can they ask to try to figure out if it's a scrupulous person doing their loan?
- [44:51]
B
It's a good question. I mean, not just take the confidence, but I mean, the rates and fees tell a lot. Especially if you get a second opinion. It's like, it's like, how do you tell the doctors prescribing you stuff you don't need? You go ask another doctor.
- [45:06]
A
Right?
- [45:07]
B
I mean, it's tough to get in the doctor's brain. You don't know. Like, he may think he's prescribing you the right thing and it's actually his practice ripping y. Right? It's actually somebody else. So like a lot of times it may not even be the loan officer doing it. It may be the company providing you the loan who's keeping all that margin to themselves. And the loan officer only knows that he can sell a certain thing, right? We talk about this loan officer to loan officer all the time. I have people that I talk to from other companies that are saying, man, I think my. I think my owner of my company is keeping a spread on me, right? Like, I think he's just taking some skinning off the top. And it's very common. That's true. This is more common to occur at the big brokerage names. Once again, I told myself I was not going to call out names on the show. I'm not trying to pick enemies in the industry, but you know, the, the big names that have 8,000 loan officers, they, they grew that way by getting the margin. That's, that's how they did it. Right. Obviously it's, it's possible for a well run and you know, responsible agency to grow. It's typically a little slower though. Right. The agencies with 8,9000 loan officers in them and they're, you know, they have to pay mountains and mountains of management. It's very possible. They got to make a higher spread on your deals to pay all those people. That's, it's understandable from a business model. Right.
- [46:23]
A
They got a big car, they got a big office. They don't do a ton of volume. They want a guy who speaks really good English and has a good personality. He expects a higher income. It's a kind of a pickle that you find yourself in. You get in this business because all your clients are saying, I want the lowest rates and lowest fees. But they're also saying, I don't want to work with a scum bucket in a third world country that's been delegated to do my loan.
- [46:44]
B
It's exactly right. And I want to make sure I'm clear it is very possible to do it with integrity. It's, I'm, I don't want it to sound like it's impossible. The only way is to rip off your client, be successful mortgage. That is absolutely not true. What I'm saying is that with this new kind of inception of correspondent lenders the last decade or so, it's become so easy to take the shortcut. That's the danger. Instead of building with good business practices and good profit and losses and good margin management, these lenders are saying, hey, do you Want to make 4 points on FHA loan? Hey, you want to make 4 points on all your VA loans? You can.
- [47:17]
A
Well, let's be honest here. We don't need to say names, but have we not lost loan officers that we built up and trained and mentored and brought to a point of really good skill and competence? And given our leads to, and given our database to and given our friends to who then were like, hey, I'm going to go work there because I can make twice as much money for the exact same amount of work or I can work half as hard and make the same money.
- [47:38]
B
I have had this copy and pasted conversation with people who are no longer at the company saying I want to be able to charge what I want and me and David said that's fine. You're not going to do it to our clients. That that was the answer. That's. I kid you not. That is copy and paste how the conversation went. And if you want to run your business that way, more power to you, bucko. That's not how we work here at the one brokerage we have our. We are in compliance. We care about our clients. We want to make sure that they're getting good deals. Now. We also want to be profitable. Of course. We're not a non profit. Right. We are trying to run the one brokerage at the maximum. You know. You know.
- [48:13]
A
Well, our value prop is that you guys listening to this go. I trust them. If they say that's the rate, then that's a good rate. We can't have one of our loan officers selling you double if you trust us. If you're skeptical, maybe he could do that because you're shopping them around and it's not going to work. But if you're just walking in saying, hey, I heard you on mortgage Monday, I trust David and Christian. I know they do ethical business. We can't have him ripping off our database. And that. That's the problem you face when you get big or you become successful. There's someone else with an angle. They're not as good. So they have to be sneaky. Right. Just like we've all seen the wholesaler that lies about the quality of the deal. We've all seen the turnkey operator that gives you numbers that aren't actually going to work where you get stuck with the house someone wanted. We've all seen the multifamily operator that gives you a pro forma that is not accurate for what the thing's going to do. Right.
- [49:05]
B
The.
- [49:06]
A
Our industry is ripe with it. It is ripe with it because it's a sales industry.
- [49:10]
B
Correct?
- [49:11]
A
Right. And we fuel and feed these monsters that rip off the clients by falling for marketing by clicking on who's ever got.
- [49:20]
B
It's gotten so easy.
- [49:21]
A
Very easy. Yeah. The regulation is the real estate agents. You got to get a license. You have oversight, you have fees. You got to pay to be in the mls. You got to pay to have insurance for errors and omissions. It's an insane amount of regulation that the agents have to have. Why not just become a wholesaler, have none of that, pay none of the money, say whatever the hell you want and everyone's going to go buy deals from you instead. And what happens when you get busted for lying? You Pack your bags, you go to another city, you do the same thing over there. Yeah, our industry has.
- [49:50]
B
This whole deal is actually the real estate's agent side equivalent, of course, of
- [49:54]
A
what we're talking about.
- [49:55]
B
It's. That's the equivalent. Your goal is to make the maximum possible spread by ripping off seller. You know, get the seller to agree to lowest thing possible, get the buyer to agree to the highest thing possible. And you get to objectively make a
- [50:05]
A
spread on that as much money as possible. That's what wholesalers, they make as much as they can.
- [50:10]
B
And now imagine the government was subsidizing that house for $10,000. And instead of passing that on to the buyer, you're like, oh, it's the same concept.
- [50:18]
A
The government goes, hey, we want, we want to get house transactions moving again. So if you buy a house, you'll get a tax credit. And the wholesalers were like, well, I was going to make 20 grand, but now I'll make 35 grand because I'm going to take the housing credit somehow. That's what's going on here. And there would be no way for people to know.
- [50:34]
B
Yeah. And this is not disclosed, guys. You don't see it on your sheets. You'll just see higher rates. That's what you'll see. You'll see a half a percent higher rate for FHA loans and the veterans. And the first time home buyers get all of that benefit that should be in their pocket and should be incentivizing new home buyers and should be incentivizing more of, you know, single family residence buyers instead of BlackRock buying them all. Like, this is what it should be being used for. It should be being used for getting our veterans off the streets and getting them into homes and building equity and financial security. That's what these incentives are meant for. And they're being eaten up by unscrupulous loan officers who want to make double their commission. And it's such a damn travesty. And that's why Dave and I talk about it literally at this dinner. We said we got to start talking about this because it's so wrong. I mean, David, the guys who we were talking to, we won't disclose who it is, but the guys we're talking, we're literally like, david, you need to talk about this.
- [51:25]
A
Well, you guys all knew about it. This, this actual, like, I don't know what you want to call it. It's. This information never made its way to me. Yeah, you stop it before it goes any further in the company So I didn't hear about it. And we're sitting at dinner, and you guys are discussing this, and I'm like, what? Yeah, really? Like, I didn't know that, that I knew that VA loans and FHA loans were typically priced lower, and I understood it's because the government was subsidizing it. But I didn't know that there was a scam that lenders could use to, to basically eat that themselves and pass it on. Because I don't close the files. I'm not doing the underwriting like you guys are. Right. I'm overseeing the company and the hiring, so we got more stuff like this coming. Everybody subscribe to the channel. Make sure you pass this around to everyone you know that buys real estate. Maybe don't send it to the loan officers that you know, because we don't want.
- [52:12]
B
We're gonna start making some enemies for sure.
- [52:14]
A
I don't need any more enemies. I've got plenty. But send it to the buyers for sure. Christian, I'm gonna ask you a tough question here to wrap this thing up. And he doesn't know this coming, folks, so give him some grace. What advice do you have for the loan officers that look at these opportunities and go, that's better. I can make more that are in this arena that are saying, well, technically, it's not illegal as long as I do it this way. What advice do you have for those people if they're listening, thinking, yeah, why is this bad if I can make twice as much on the same loan? That sounds like a good thing.
- [52:50]
B
Thing, yeah. I'd say. What's, what's your motivation in being in this industry? Are you actually trying to help people or you're just trying to make the next quick buck? I, I, that would be my advice. And if you're trying to make the next quick buck, okay, stay, stay and do it as long as you can get away with it. I have a higher moral compass. I, I actually, I think most people who listen to the show, I think, get the sense from me and David that we're legitimately trying to run this business to help people. Like, we are. Like, I'm not bold BSing. I, I have a very, very core motivation because of what I saw real estate did for my family. I've seen people go from owning nothing to having a portfolio, and the change and betterment in their life is phenomenal. It's, like, incredible to see. It's, it's, it's very rewarding.
- [53:35]
A
Right.
- [53:35]
B
And that's not B.S. that's not me. Just, you know, saying. Saying that tug the heartstrings. I like what we do, and it really grinds my gears to see people say, oh, we can do that same thing. But, like, why don't you let me charge twice? Like, no, you're gonna make what you make. You make plenty of money. Just to give you guys an idea, the. The people who were talking about who left made multiple six figures.
- [54:00]
A
I mean, if we're being transparent, one of them was making more than the company was making. That's how many leads and support we gave this person. They were closing in on a million dollars a year. They were younger than 25 years old. And when someone came to them, because what happens is people poach the people that work here. They come say, hey, you know all David's database. You know all David's clients. You have a lot of credibility. He's been feeding you for three or four years. Come work for me and bring all those people. And this person not only brought my clients, he brought my staff. He brought the support.
- [54:32]
B
You could charge whatever.
- [54:33]
A
You could charge whatever you want. And a lot of you may be doing business with some of these people thinking they're still in the one brokerage when they're not. This is why Christian and I are saying, contact us. Okay? You can go to the website. You can talk to someone. There's people on LinkedIn right now that say they work at the one brokerage that do not. There's people online that are saying, david Green's lender that are not. You may be getting letters from some of these people that have my logos on the bottom of it, and they work for a different company because they're taking advantage of you. This is why I give out my personal information, so you can talk to me, and I can connect you with someone. I want you going through the front door, so I'm gonna do that in a second. But before I do, Christian, why don't you share if people want to get a hold of you, where they can go?
- [55:15]
B
Yeah, quick way. Instagram @the1 broker is my handle. It's on. It's in the comments of every single one of these videos that we do. Reach out to me directly. I give my cell phone out on the first dm, right? Just ask me, what's your cell phone number. You can text me. I kid you not. It's the phone number my mom text me on. I don't have a work phone. I got a phone. Okay. My email is Christian@the1brokerage.com I'm the only person in that email, so reach out to us directly, please.
- [55:43]
A
Guys, you can go to david green24.com There's a chat feature goes directly to my phone. This is why I spend money every month to have this thing available. So if you're listening, you can get a hold of me. Not someone pretending to be me, not somebody with a fake Instagram account. It's me. Feel free to say what's something that only David would know? Or give me your email and I'll send you a picture of me making a silly face or something so that you can know it's me. We want to protect you. We want to finance your real estate. We want to guide your decisions. We want you to come back to us time and time again. We don't want to kill the sheep. We'll share it and then let your wool grow back. And then we'll help you with the next deal when you saved up that money. But please, it is more important than ever to pay attention to who you listen to on YouTube. There's so much incentive to lie to you and paint a picture about real estate that's not true. Because you can make so much money. It's more important than ever to make sure that you're working with an honest lender and saying, hey, I need you to find me a loan with a really good rate. Not I'm going to talk to 12 guys and whoever is the cheapest is the one I'm going to use. They're going to lie to you. It's more important than ever to work with an agent that actually owns real estate and sells real estate. There are so many people in industry that have sold one house or two homes. They had some mentor walk them through it. They have no clue what they're freaking doing, but they're all over TikTok and Instagram talking about deals that aren't even theirs. You actually have to vet your support team, not just your deal. We all know we got to analyze the deal. You need to analyze the people that are helping you with because there's too many freaking people in our industry. And the last piece of advice I'll give is try to use someone that's been around for 10 years or more. More if you can. Seven, eight. That's okay. I don't like the dudes that have been in for three or four years or the gals that know how to tell you everything you want to hear and you just cross your fingers and hope that it works out. Those are the people that should be working underneath the person that's been there for a while. The new people should be being mentored by the existing people, not running their own brand and having their own business and building their own ego on your back, on your dollar, on your savings. So thank you guys for listening to us. Thanks for checking out the show. Thank you for being subscribed to the channel. Please do share this with other people that you know in the industry and stay tuned for more content coming. We'll see y' all next week on Mortgage.