A (2:39)

Yeah, that's a great point, actually. I remember on BiggerPockets we would get a lot of people that would come do their interview and then I'd see their social media post. And it was so honored to have been asked to share my story on the Bigger Pockets podcast. Like, like they were just people beating down the door saying, we, we saw what you're doing and it's so impressive that we just think the world needs to know when really it was all these people that applied to be on the show and like, beg, please, please, please let me on there. So I do think there's just a lot of that in the industry in general. The motivations of most people who want to be on shows is they want the credibility. They want everyone to see that they're so great as opposed to, man, I, I had to, there's some hard knocks here to figure this thing out and I want to help other people avoid the things that I had to pay such a high price to learn. I know that's what it was with me is real estate was so tough and I made mistakes and looked back and said, oh, I wish I would have known not to do that. That was such a costly mistake that I had to learn the hard way. And I just wanted to share that information. And so I appreciate you being here to do that today. Were there any like, certain podcasts themselves that you thought stood out when you were listening that you thought gave like the best content?

B (3:52)

Yeah, I, honestly, I think it was first and foremost Bigger Pockets. Right. I, I think that's most people's answer who, you know, has been a loyal fan for a long time, especially coupled with the forums.

A (4:03)

Right.

B (4:04)

It's great to binge watch the shows and listen to them in the car while you're working and then go on the forums and ask questions and actually like have some interaction there. I would also say Robert Kiyosaki had some. I know he's rebranded a couple times, but, you know, all of his podcasts and audiobooks were super solid. And then honestly, yeah, no, I think those, those are the big two, Robert Kiyosaki and bigger pirate kits. You Know, those were always where I, where I went back to the most. And honestly, a lot of YouTube videos I would just, after a good podcast, I would YouTube a lot to just kind of fill gaps and things I had questions on. And, and that was always really, really helpful.

A (4:45)

Man, YouTube just makes it so hard to not fill your head up with knowledge constantly. There's just so much to listen to and so much content out there now.

B (4:55)

Yeah, totally. I'm on YouTube at least four hours a day.

A (4:59)

There's not a time I'm not on YouTube if I'm not recording or if I'm not in a meeting, if I'm at the gym, if I'm walking, if I'm working around the house, if I'm working on a project, I have YouTube going constantly. So before we get into the real estate journey, actually I'm curious, are there any non Real estate YouTube creators or types of content that you find interesting?

B (5:19)

You know, I, I really like the AI generated historical YouTube videos. There's a lot of really cool, you know, the history of Rome or how this war unfolded, or, you know, what you really don't know about, you know, Pangea, or just random, like historical facts where it uses AI to read and write the whole thing with the picture graphics. And I just love learning the history of our world and how we got to where we are, because I think a lot of people pretend like the world started in 1900 and I love figuring out everything that unfolded before then. So I consume a lot of history.

A (5:59)

I find it fascinating a lot of the time that when you get into that, you'll hear things that either were never mentioned or directly conflict with the version of history that we got taught wherever we learned it. And it shouldn't surprise you, like, there's obviously different perspectives on different situations. Like to a cancer cell, a surgeon or an oncologist is a terrible, evil maniac, right? Like, depending on how you viewed what happened, there's heroes and there's villains. And when you hear different historical perspectives, I think it broadens my perspective and it helps me see other things in the world today that I didn't notice at all were even there. Because I like, we're all kind of framed or taught how to look at different situations. And I think real estate investing can be one of those things where for a long time this message was told that you buy houses to get cash flow, to quit your job, to live on the cash flow. And an army of people got into this thinking, yeah, my boss can shove it. I don't Want to have to do that anymore. I'm going to get cash flow. And they went in with all this crazy ambition and optimism and I'm going to make this happen and this is my dream. And boy, there was a whole lot of battered soldiers that were brought back. Just found out that that was not the way it works. It's very difficult today. Usually it's like 20 years in before that becomes a realistic expectation. Unless you happen to buy in 2010. Like when I got started and just caught a wave that made it really easy. What's your take on this very controversial topic of should you, and can you live off the cash flow from real estate or is it more like icing on the cake and you should focus on other stuff first?

B (7:34)

Yeah, I, I think I was also a victim of, you know, that's, that's what lured me in. Right. It's like, you know, the cash flow will replace your W2 and everything's going to be great and, you know, buy one, then two, then three. But what people don't really, you know, divulge on the podcast, you know, especially if someone's doing it for 20 years, right? If you got 20 years down on your mortgage, you're in a good spot, right? You are, you are feeling that cash flow. But people don't talk a lot about year one to year 15, where, you know, the amortization schedule is just one, not in your favor. And, and two, it's very capital intensive. And I think the way I framed my mind is I'm 29 years old, I've been doing this for good going on nine years right now. And I've always looked at real estate from day one as a 35 year game, right. And whatever you can accumulate in terms of total portfolio value, ideally 30 years from then, even if the property breaks even with no cash flow and you add 2% appreciation per year, that's what you're looking at having in terms of a net worth at the end of the Runway, at the end of the rainbow. And so I've never really looked at the cash flow. I've always looked at the equity creation side and how can I get my portfolio as large as possible as quickly as possible? So that way, 30 years from then, I'm left with X at the end of the rainbow.

A (9:06)

Now, does that mean you think cash flow doesn't matter?

B (9:10)

I think cash flow matters. Up until you can pay your mortgage, you need to make sure that you have a good buffer. 10% above your mortgage payment, 20% above your, your mortgage Payment for, you know, your property management fees, if you're paying for it, your opex, your capex, and all those good things. But once you, once you hit your mortgage, what's more important is getting the money out of the deal to do the next deal. That's more important to me than cash flow, if I can achieve that. Cash flows irrelevant.

A (9:42)

Now, I'm assuming if you're saying that that means you've got income coming in from different areas or a healthy amount of reserves.

B (9:49)

Yeah, at this point, we do have, you know, a couple of income streams and we also have reserves, but it wasn't always like that.

A (9:59)

Yeah, that's exactly right. I think a lot of the time when someone's listening to real estate podcasts, we're obviously not going to take someone that has one or two houses and put them up there as an expert. So you're talking to people that have more actual assets, a bigger net worth, more experience. But those people are talking about things that the. The new person can't. Is not realistically going to achieve. Okay, like, I'll use a jiu jitsu analogy because it's been a couple years since I did it, so hopefully people don't get mad at me. When you are a white belt, the things that you're trying to figure out, the black belts have literally forgot. They don't remember that some easy ones, like you get rug burn on your feet or mat burn very easily. Like, I've just. I could send you pictures of my feet that are disgusting of just horrific, huge. Like, just rip the skin right off of it. Because subconsciously you're just running around like a rabid weasel. And you don't think about the fact that before your feet get sweaty, they just tear on the mat. Well, black belts have subconsciously learned not to do that. So they're not going to tell you that kind of thing. They're not going to remember stuff like, certain muscles are very weak. When you start, like, just holding your head off the mat, your neck gets so tired, their necks are like iron by the time they're a black belt.

B (11:15)

Right.

A (11:16)

So when you're listening to black belts talk about jiu jitsu, it is. And then you go in as a white belt and struggle with something that you haven't heard them talk about. It is so easy to get discouraged and think it's just you. But every stinking white belt has these problems. It's not just you. Every new investor is struggling with this idea of, how do I do this and still try to find A way to have a family and still try to find a way to work my job. And I've got all these balls in the air, and it's credibly stressful. Man, that black belt, when Ken McElroy talks about this, he doesn't sound as stressed as me. He sounds pretty calm. Yeah, he went through his stressful period 20 years ago, and now he's calm as a black belt. So I appreciate you saying it because there's, there's not a bridge between the people trying to get started to build momentum and the people that have a decent amount of momentum. But you're only going to hear the stories from the people that have already got it figured out. You have any, any thoughts you want to add to that?

B (12:08)

I think you hit the nail right on the head, David. I mean, honestly, I think the biggest thing that people who are getting into real estate need to understand is that while you are trying to get into real estate, you also need to be focused on making as much money as possible. And I think that's something that I really put a huge focus on because things are going to go wrong. Things. Things can go horribly wrong. And if you think that buying a single family and flipping it or buying a duplex or quadplex is going to solve your, you know, W2 problem, you're, you're. You're in for a rude awakening once you start working with contractors.

A (12:48)

Right?

B (12:49)

And I won one bad change order. One wall coming down that exposes a massive problem that's 30, 40, $50,000 that you have to address now, because the wall's down, it could, it could wipe you out. It really could. And so I really try to talk to people in my circles about focusing on generating as much annual income as possible while also learning about real estate. So that way, when you do your first deal, you have income to support things going wrong, and that will allow your momentum to go so much further into deal number two. Deal number three. Deal number four. Rather than quitting your job, doing your first deal, having your first deal go horribly wrong, and then you're back to square zero.

A (13:34)

Oh, that's such a good point. And it's also true that when you're, when you get some momentum going, you don't look at every deal like it's your whole world. You look at how that deal kind of fits into the bigger picture, like what you said. There's probably a jiu jitsu analogy there as well. I'm trying to get to this position because from here I have all these other options available that I don't have where I'm starting, but all the pieces are kind of linked together. But when you're new, you're not looking at any of that. You're just staring at this challenge you have right in front of you right now. How do I get this person off of me that's really heavy and I can't breathe? How do I find the thing I'm gonna buy? How do I figure out where the money's gonna come from? It does seem so overwhelming, like everything does when you first get started. And to me, and I. I'm curious if you'd agree on this. The biggest threat to the new investor is not making a mistake. Those are gonna happen. It's making a mistake that takes you completely out of the game, loses all your money. It's like, like your first hand in poker. If you go all in and you lose, you're done. You don't learn anything about poker at that point, you're never gonna play that game. But if you don't bet too much, you're just kind of playing a little bit. The learning curve isn't as damaging. And then once you get better at it, you know when to go all in and when not to go all in. Do you see this as another common mistake that the new investors just don't understand, that the goal is to stay alive as opposed to get financial freedom in two years?

B (15:00)

Yeah, I, I think that's not talked about enough, honestly. You can, you can buy five deals and they'll all have a mistake or two on them. Every single deal I've done, there's been something unexpected. I think that's just part of the game. It's just, how unexpected is it and what did you do beforehand to plan for it or try to figure out what that list might be? And I think if people spent more time doing a little bit more due diligence on the front end of deals and also doing smaller deals to your poker analogy. Right. If you buy into a, you know, a tournament with a hundred dollars, you can afford to put five or six dollars into every hand several times before you're out of the game. I think a lot of people want to go right to the, you know, $500,000 deals, the million dollar deals, the two million dollar deals, but really getting their feet wet with, you know, something that's under a hundred thousand, that's a smaller down payment, smaller rehab. Yeah, it's not going to achieve your financial freedom that you're looking for on day one. But you're going to learn so much more from just doing a deal, even though it's a small deal, than you are from either A, not doing a deal at all, or B, going all in and getting wiped out.

A (16:17)

Yeah, that's a solid point. Sometimes doing the deal and what you learn from it is more expensive than the money that you made. No one wants to go though on a podcast and say, I screwed up, I sucked, I made dumb mistakes. Look how dumb this mistake is because all the armchair quarterbacks, oh, I would have known not to do that. They don't want to go tell you that. They wait until they crush it or they embellish what they did and that's the story that gets told. And it's just, it's harmful. Kind of like. Do you remember the Liver King?

B (16:46)

Oh, yeah.

A (16:47)

Okay. Do you remember the Liver King telling people that he was natty, that he wasn't on anything?

B (16:53)

Okay, yeah. He was like, I'm all natural. I'm all natural.

A (16:56)

And he did it to sell his stupid supplements that he had. And I'm not making the case. Steroids are bad for you. I don't really care. People can make up their own mind blowing, but it is bad to tell people that you're natural when you're not. Because you get this 20 year old, 25 year old just working his butt off as hard as he can and he looks nothing like the guy on steroids. And it's so discouraging. You think there's something wrong with you. Social media creates this problem. YouTube can create this problem that you're looking at the most successful people or people that have embellished their success. And then you get so discouraged thinking there's something wrong with you. Whereas if they told the story the way that it happened and you would be the opposite, you'd be encouraged. Oh, I could do this too, man. If he made those mistakes and now he's where he is now I'm on the right path, I'm doing. I just need to keep doing exactly what I'm doing and I'll get there also.

B (17:47)

Totally. Yeah. And on, on the Liver King analogy too, right? Like once, once that comes out that he's not natural and it's proven he doesn't actually eat, you know, raw meats or whatever. And again, I don't, I don't care if people, you know, use steroids or don't. I don't have an opinion on it. But if, if, if he kind of flipped that script and was like, this is how far I got being Natural. And then I got from be here to here by using, you know, steroids or whatever, and here's how you do it safely. That's a totally different audience and level of learning that you're providing to the community rather than harming the community. You're saying, hey, you can get to here natural. Once you get there, though, you're. It's going to be very hard to get further without steroids.

A (18:30)

Yeah, that's exactly right. And then the other thing is there's some people that succeeded in real estate using steroids. They borrowed a bunch of other people's money. They caught the perfect market. They put all the risk on the deals on other people, not themselves. So when it failed, their investors lost the money, but they didn't get hurt. And they sort of have this big edge, but they don't tell you that. They said, here's how I bought 40 properties myself. I mean, there was literally a specific person that we interviewed on BiggerPockets that portrayed themselves as owning like 30 properties by the age of 26. And during the interview, I was like, this does not smell right. I don't. The math did not math in my head. And I, I asked the right questions and they admitted, oh, no, I don't. I owned four properties that were like $35,000 pigs in a terrible D class neighborhood. And then I learned that I was really cute and I could get a big following on social media. So I raised the money and I gave it to the guys that knew how to invest and they bought all the properties and managed the rehabs and I got an equal share of equity because I raised the money.

B (19:33)

Yeah.

A (19:34)

And I was just like, well, that's fine, say that.

B (19:36)

Right.

A (19:37)

Don't say that you got 30 properties by 26, because then everyone else thinks there's something wrong with them so that you can be exalted and feel like you're a big shot. And there was actually a kind of a big argument that happened within BP behind the curtains of the staff and some of the other hosts not liking that. I, I wasn't mean about it, but I was honest about it. And me saying, you guys are looking at what gets clicks, and I'm looking at the person listening. Yeah. Just quitting before they even get started. Because who can, who could ever do this in four years get that many properties? So I really appreciate all that to say you being here and talking about what you learned and some of the mistakes that were made so people can see what a natural progression not on steroids actually looks like with real estate.

B (20:22)

Yeah, totally. Happy to, happy to talk about the good, the bad and the ugly. You know, I think, I think it's important. Where do you want to start?

A (20:30)

Let's hear about, like, your first deal. How old were you and what kind of deal it was?

B (20:34)

Okay, So I was 21 years old. It was a vacant piece of land that was surrounded by a bunch of two families. It was $50,000 in the middle of Boston, which, as you can imagine, is, is just absurdity. And I went to a local meetup and found some local hard money lenders that looked at it and kind of were like, hey, like, we don't really understand why, why this is so cheap either. Little did I know, they were new hard money lenders who hadn't done much real estate on their own. They just had some, some extra cash from selling some businesses. I found out later. And they, they gave me the $50,000 hard money loan at, at 13% to go and get this property while we were, this is a fun one. So while we were, while we were under contract, the seller found out that, you know, I wanted to build four units there. Right. Or I was going to try to try to get four, four units there. And so he renegotiated the entire deal while we were under contract. And me being 21 years old with no knowledge and no family in the real estate game, I kind of just kept saying yes to the seller rather than pausing and questioning how hard I was being negotiated against. And long story short, we ended up being 50, 50. He still got the $50,000 up front, and I got stuck with him for the next four years while, while, while trying to get permits for this lot.

A (22:20)

And this was just based on inexperience, you think?

B (22:24)

I think it was based on not only inexperience, but not having a team. Right. It is so, so important. And I think, you know, all of the episodes that I listened to was how important the team was. The thing was I really didn't know how to vet the team team. So I had a lawyer. He just wasn't a real estate lawyer. You know, I, I had an agent. They were just probably the agent who did one deal every four years in Boston.

A (22:52)

Right.

B (22:52)

And just not having the right team and not having the right Rolex, I was just so excited to jump in that I just made an offer and was like, I'll figure it out.

A (23:02)

Yeah.

B (23:02)

You know, and to me, getting involved into real estate was more important than learning the right way to do it at the time.

A (23:14)

So in hindsight do you think it was a net positive that you just said, I, I gotta do something, I'll figure it out as I go? Or do you think it would have been better to not get involved until you had a little bit more of an idea of what you're doing?

B (23:29)

So I think, I think it was a massive net positive and I'll, I'll tell you why briefly. When, when we bought it, we found out it had a deed restriction. And so in, in some cities and towns, for the listeners out there, they have these programs that have happened over the last couple of decades. They're usually surrounded by, we want more green space in a very densely populated area. And so the city will sell parcels to neighbors. Either it's city owned land or people pass away and somehow the city gets it. They'll sell parcels to neighbors for $1,000. So that way they can have a bigger backyard essentially and there's more green space throughout the suburbs in very densely populated areas. I've seen it in Texas, I've seen it in la, I've seen it in Boston since. Right, so there's, these programs are all over these very densely populated areas, but they come with a catch. And the catch is that because the city is selling it for so cheap, you can't build anything there. And that comes in the form of a deed restriction.

A (24:34)

Okay. Okay. So this is like, hey, we, we're going to give you the deed to the lot. It's not going to be incorporated into your lot. It will still have its own apm, be a separate lot. You will be granted right to use this property. But you can't build on it, you can't use it for certain purposes. That's what you mean by the restriction? Because the idea was we are, we would charge a lot more if you were a developer who was going to make money off this. We're kind of doing you a favor by letting you have it because you're the neighbor.

B (25:03)

Correct? Okay. Yeah, yeah. And so in, in this case, you know, and it took several law firms to figure this out, but there was an expiration on it. And so the statute, you know, that, that allowed this program to, to operate expired after 30 years. And when I had bought it, we were on year 27 and so we had said, okay, if we can get the permits approved through the city, we'll have to just wait until the 30 years expires and then the deed restriction is lifted.

A (25:37)

Okay, gotcha. Well, how long was it 30 years before the restrictions lifted?

B (25:42)

Yeah, it was 30. It was 30 years for the deed restriction to be lifted.

A (25:45)

And now are you saying you bought a lot that previously had a deed restriction or you bought it while it had it from a person, person that lived next door and you had to wait before the restriction was lifted?

B (25:58)

Yeah, so the gentleman I bought it was the, was the recipient of the deed restriction. So he had gotten the benefit of it. And so I bought it while it had the restriction. I just didn't have an attorney to do a deed.

A (26:10)

So you didn't know it had the deed restriction? I didn't know you bought it thinking you can build. And he did. He didn't disclose this?

B (26:17)

Disclose it.

A (26:19)

Of course. All right, so what was that emotion like? Just tell me what it felt like when you realized. Because you had to think, I've been had and you had to feel like the biggest idiot ever.

B (26:29)

Yeah, I felt like a massive fool. And some, you know, the way you go about permitting a lot is you spend money on surveyors, you spend money on architects, you spend money on all of the things to get permits. And again, it was my first deal, and it was a crazy first deal, but, you know, by the time I had found out that the deed restriction was still active, I'd probably spend $80,000 on all of the soft costs to try to get a permit. And then when the city rejected the permit, not just for zoning violations, but for the deed restriction, that was when I found out that I had made a massive mistake.

A (27:10)

Okay, all right, so did you, did you laugh about it? Were you like, I should have never did this. This is a sign from God that I never should have got. In real estate, there's always these signs from God that people have. They're always very tied to their emotions in the moment. I've noticed that. But how did you take it?

B (27:26)

Yeah, I, I didn't sleep for two years.

A (27:29)

Okay.

B (27:31)

I was stressed out of my mind. Max out credit cards, hard. You know, don't forget I had the hard money loan.

A (27:39)

Right.

B (27:39)

Which typically are in one year terms. And now we were looking at this going for three, four years by default. And it was, it was constant, it was constant stress. It was constant stress. And unfortunately everybody was taking advantage of the 21 year old kid in Boston who's getting into real estate. You know, I, I think by the time it was all said and done, I, I spent over $100,000 for a set of permits on a two family right now that cost, just for the listeners out there is somewhere between 12 and $25,000 for everything.

A (28:17)

Is that because of AI made it easier for. Why is it so much cheaper?

B (28:21)

No, it's, it's, it's because I, I, I used, I used an architect who took advantage of me.

A (28:27)

Been there before, my man.

B (28:29)

That's exactly.

A (28:31)

And they, they do not lose sleep over this, by the way. Everyone listening, if you are wondering about the engineers, the architects, the contractors, all these people who provide services, 90% of them will have zero hiccups taking your money, overcharging you a ton. I think a lot of them, they don't want to believe they're bad people, so they make up a story in their mind about why this is okay. But my litmus test to know if you're a good person or not is do you treat people the way you would want to be treated? Not could you justify this in some way, but if you were on the other side of it, would you feel good about paying $200,000 for these plans that you could have paid someone else to be like, oh, yeah, that'll take me two weeks. It'll be eight grand, or whatever the case would be? So do you just mind sharing, like, what mindset you were in that caused you to make the decision to do it and how you see it now

B (29:26)

to get the permits?

A (29:28)

Yeah. What you paid for them when you

B (29:29)

were like, so the way permitting works for the listeners out there is it's progressive, right. And so you get a very generic proposal. And the mindset was, okay, the first phase of this is going to be $30,000. I didn't know the second phase was going to be 70,000. And they don't really give you quotes on that until you get there because they don't know what the project's definitively going to be. And so it's hard for them to say this is going to be the total cost for the engineers and everyone else, because the architects just do one very small, small piece of it. And so every call it four to six weeks, I was writing a four or five or $6,000 check, and I didn't, I didn't have the knowledge at the time to know that that wasn't normal. Right. I just didn't have the knowledge because it was my first go of it. And so my, my mindset was I'm in this JV with the seller who took advantage of me. I have a hard money lender who took advantage of me, who could default me, and I have a personal guarantee signed, meaning if this goes south, they could sue me for whatever is owed. And it was just putting My head down as as much as possible, working 70 hours a week. I was in tech sales at the time to make as much commission as possible to continue to pay for the bills that I had and also the future bills that were coming up. And so I, I've always had the mentality of when things go south, you work harder and smarter at the same time. You don't throw in the towel, because as soon as you throw in the towel, you know you've given up and you really can't. Giving up is not an option.

A (31:10)

I mean, that's pretty profound statement that you made. The last couple years in my own journey for real estate has been devastating, from people ripping me off to cities shutting down properties for no reason other than they didn't like short term rentals. We've even had a couple city officials that worked for the city that weren't the decision makers that said, oh yeah, we looked David up, we know who he is. Like, he's not, he's not getting away with anything over here. Like, they see me as this greedy, terrible land baron. And I see myself as, I just bought a house, legally applied for a permit. Like you said you guys didn't want it, but you didn't tell me that when I was buying it, as in the city. So they came in and shut down the power, tied me up in the permit process and kept me there for three years where I had to make the payments until basically they like are trying to force foreclosure. Yeah, I don't see myself as the villain here. They have created that story and it's so easy to quit. I had people on the David Green team that quit because the easy leads weren't coming in anymore when the market turned around. When biggerpocket said, hey, you can't talk about the David Green team on the podcast because we sell leads to realtors. We want them to come to us, and you can buy the leads from us instead of people finding on the podcast, you can't talk about the fact you have a mortgage company here anymore because we sell leads to the people listening for mortgage companies now, Nick, you got to remember, mortgage officers are like, they are notorious for ripping people off. It is so easy in the mortgage industry to rip someone off compared to being a real estate agent.

B (32:45)

Totally.

A (32:46)

And they're, they're all just baking into their rates, the money that they pay for the leads to bigger pockets. And so the person that is getting put in touch with the investor friendly lender is getting a higher rate and higher fees that are just hidden in there that so the bigger pockets can get compensated. And they're telling me, you can't talk about your company. That doesn't do that. And I had people that were working for my company that wanted to scam people, and when we said no, they quit. They took our clients, they took my staff, they took my processors. They started their own branch and continued marketing themselves as David Green's loan officer so that they could keep making like it was devastating with how many people gave up, wanted to take a easy road that involved ripping someone off, did the stuff that your architect did to you.

B (33:32)

Right.

A (33:33)

And the only thing that I learned through the entire process was you just can't quit if you're just getting kicked and kicked and kicked. As long as you don't quit, you will get up at some point and you'll come back to fight. And I. I don't know. You mentioned that. And all this stuff ran through my head. It's so true that there's this idea that in real estate, it always goes up and to the right. There's the government should always be printing money. They should always be giving us free health care and free education and stimulus and quantitative easing and all these things that make life easier for us to live in. And there should always be a grant. There should always be an opportunity zone. There should always be something for us that makes it easier. You should never lose, but you're going to lose. You're going to get hammered. And it is so important when that happens that you focus on what you learned and you don't quit. Because like we said to start the show, if you quit, you're guaranteed to lose. And it sounds like your first deal. That's the hand you got dealt. You walked into this thing with good intentions. I'm going to do right by everyone. I'm going to pay the price I got to pay. And you got ripped off by the seller. Then you got ripped off by the architect. Who else has ripped you off so far in this journey?

B (34:41)

Oh, the engineers, the surveyors, everyone.

A (34:46)

And that's your first time. You're just. You just stepped onto the mats for the first time in jiu jitsu. And there's this bully that's just, like, ripping you apart, and you're like, I just wanted some exercise. What is this? It's terrible.

B (35:00)

Yeah. And. And, you know, I think. I think what's so profound about getting into a grind mentality when you're getting beat up constantly? It's so revitalizing. It's like Healing almost when you have to max out a credit card, which makes you work harder at your W2 to make more sales, to make more commission to go, then pay the credit card. Like each one of those steps is so relieving. And for the listeners out there who you know are in sales or commission based or whatever, maybe it's working more overtime or whatever to just get over that hump that you're dealing with right now. As soon as you get over that hump, you're going to get kicked or beat up again, potentially. But now you've just proven you can get over a hump. And each time you do that, it's so uplifting because you're like, well, I just went through this six weeks ago. Now I'm in the same situation again and if I just do what I just did, I'll get through this bad situation too. I think that's what kind of, at least for me, gave me the motivation to keep going while getting beat up. Because every time I was like, well, okay, I can solve this because I just solved that not that long ago. And so even though it goes on sometimes for a long time, months or years, giving yourself the power to overcome something is so profound when you've recently done it.

A (36:38)

Wow, that's. I mean, this is incredible. Okay, so you bought. Let's sum up where we are so far. You bought your first property, which was a piece of land intending to build on it. Seller doesn't disclose to you. There are deed restrictions. You don't even know you're supposed to ask. You think you're being smart by having an attorney look at it. They're not a real estate attorney, so they don't catch what you need to hear. So let's just stop any of the comments from saying, what an idiot, you should have had an attorney from looking at it because from your perspective, you did.

B (37:08)

Yeah.

A (37:09)

Then you get ripped off by the architects and the engineers overcharging you who. And you don't know they're ripping you off because in your perspective, this is just how these things work. Right. You don't know any different. And then I think the surveyor also overcharges you. So now you've just dumped a ton of money into this thing. This is incredibly discouraging. For some reason, you haven't quit. Did you have like a mentor that was kind of talking you through this thing? What were you doing to convince yourself that you got to keep pushing forward?

B (37:36)

Honestly, I talked to a bankruptcy attorney and I. Because I was like, what? What Happens if I just throw in the towel. And the, the answer was very simple. And it really, it really changed my life. Actually. It was, you can, you can file Chapter 7 or Chapter 11 and disclosure. Not an attorney. Right. So, you know, if anybody out there is in a situation, call your own attorneys. But his, his advice was essentially, if you file bankruptcy, you will be ruined for seven years. You will not be credit worthy. You seem like a smart kid. If you can get through this and get on the other side, even if you lose all of the money you have in it, but you keep your credit intact, you will be able to take this experience and still go to institutions. If you throw in the towel and it goes down the bankruptcy route, you will be able to take this experience and have to rely on other people and their credit to go to institutions. And so, you know, I kind of looked at it like, if I can get through this, I can use everything I'm learning and apply it with non hard money loans and with institutions and do this on a different scale and do it the right way. And so I just use the whole thing as, you know, a master class in, in zoning and permitting and just tried to learn as much as possible while going through it.

A (39:06)

All right, so when you say a master class was owning and permitting, I'm assuming this means you had to petition the city to lift your deed restriction.

B (39:15)

And we had about 12 zoning violations. You know, front yard setback, rear yard setback, use height, far, all of it.

A (39:26)

And this is because in order to build the, they never would have approved it for building. That's why it was given to the person just to be an extension of.

B (39:35)

Correct? Yeah, it was a non, it was a non conforming lot. So by the way, the lot was 2200 square feet.

A (39:42)

2220.

B (39:44)

The whole lot was 2200 square square feet. The zoning was, it was zoned for two family minimum, 6,000 square feet. So, so I was 3,800 square feet short of a buildable lot.

A (39:59)

Oh my goodness. And none of the engineers, the architects thought to say this when they were putting together your plans.

B (40:06)

The, the architect was somewhat educating me, but he was like, yeah, you could, you, you could do this and you could get zoning relief and you could probably do it. The, the nail in the coffin was the deed restriction, not, not the zoning relief. And we can go down a tangent about, you know, how our whole business now is about getting zoning relief. But you know, at the time I only thought the obstacle was the zoning relief. I didn't know about the obstacle for the deed restriction until we got the refusal letter from zoning and then we also got the refusal letter from, you know, the department who deals with the deeds.

A (40:52)

Wow. Okay. So they say, no, you can't build. And here's why. These are the restrictions. You realize at some point, like, well, I can't affect where the lot is situated. So what do I do here?

B (41:04)

Exactly?

A (41:05)

Okay, so what did you do?

B (41:07)

So, so you, so I, I also got a master class in zoning law and I, you know, I appealed the city and went through the motions, worked with, you know, the office of Neighborhood Services and you know, the bpda, the board of Planning Design agency up in Boston. And there's, there's basically a five step process.

A (41:29)

Right.

B (41:29)

And this might be helpful for the listeners out there to understand where we are right now. You file for the permit. If you're conforming to the zoning code and building code, they just give you your permit. Right. Because it meets the requirements. In my case, it did not. So you get a refusal letter, you're not getting your permit. Here's why. The next step is you appeal that and you have to go meet with the direct abutters, which are your neighbors. You have to go meet with the local city councilor and civic association for that neighborhood. And then you get what's called a zoning board of appeals hearing date, where you go formally before elected officials in the city. You say, I've met with the community, I've met with the local officials. Here's all of our zoning violations. Here's why we believe you should let us build this building where the zoning code does not allow it to be built. And you get one of two outcomes. They say yes, and then there's a 21 day appeal period, or they say no and you can't come back for two years. So once they say yes, now you can actually go put your permit package together, resubmit it with the appeal decision from the city, and now you have a building permit.

A (42:51)

So you got to get the neighbors to agree, hey, we're going to let him skip all of these rules about how it normally has to be. And if you get enough of them to sign off, the city may say, okay, we'll waive all of these restrictions that you have on the lot. Yes.

B (43:09)

But in some cases, depending on what a city wants, in Boston in particular, even if all of the neighbors don't want it, the city can still approve it.

A (43:20)

Okay, okay now, but you gotta can like incentivize the city to want to approve it, right?

B (43:26)

Yeah, it's Usually in the form of like affordable deed restricted units or things like that.

A (43:31)

Okay, so is that the direction you took?

B (43:35)

No, because there was only two units. So I took the direction of getting all the neighbors on board. So we got 80 letters of support from. From neighbors.

A (43:48)

Okay. Okay, so you got the letters of support. You went back there, you said, I'm just a baby, I don't know what I'm doing. Please. Everyone else has ripped me off. And what did they say?

B (44:00)

Yeah, yeah, they eventually gave it to me. I self represented the whole way through. So I ended up doing seven neighborhood meetings and I ended up doing two with the city councilors. And then I got my ZVA day. I went, did a awful presentation, didn't even say what my violations were. And basically like you said, I was like, please, like, I don't know what I'm doing here, but like, please say yes. Here's all the neighbors saying, I can do this. And I think I stood up there, literally said, if I don't get it, it's game over.

A (44:38)

So did you find someone with a kind heart? Did you just pray this person into working with you? Like, what do they eventually do?

B (44:45)

The, the zoning board of appeals eventually gave it to me, and we tried to sell the approval to a developer and disclosed the deed restriction, saying you still had to wait another year. Long, long story short, the seller just got greedy. The guy that I entered the JV with and he forced me to build it. So then I had to go get a hard money construction loan to build it and learn construction.

A (45:13)

The seller. Okay, so the guy that lies or not lies, but he doesn't disclose the deed restrictions on the lot he's selling you because he works his way into a partnership. Maybe. Did he not know? Maybe.

B (45:25)

No, he knew.

A (45:27)

He just. Then what did he think you were going to do? He.

B (45:29)

He knew. He. I think, I think this is a great moment to pause here and tell the listeners things that are really important. So what governs a partnership is an operating agreement, right, for an llc and says, you're responsible for this, you're responsible for that. It's very important that you find a very, very good contract lawyer to write that operating agreement. Again, I had the wrong lawyer. So I had like a boilerplate go online form my LLC.com and had a generic operating agreement that basically just said we were 50.

A (46:09)

50.

B (46:10)

And so there. Neither one of us had any power to do something without the other. There was no, like deadlock provisions. If we don't agree to sell. There was no major decision Authorities. And so there was nothing that was enforceable for me to go and say, hey, we're selling this because I'm not going to build it. That wasn't an option. And so, mind you, I was also out $200,000 in soft costs at this point, between the $50,000 upfront and 150,000 in change of, you know, architects and engineers and everything else. And. And so the long story short is where. Where we're talking about now in the story is year three from when I went under contract. And so I had gone out and done other deals in the interim while this was going on, and I started to learn about construction and rehabs and everything else, and built a Rolodex. And I got connected with a very talented and knowledgeable general contractor in Boston who used to actually be an inspector for the city of Boston's building department. And he. He helped me build the thing.

A (47:27)

And.

B (47:28)

And eventually we sold it. But, you know, in. In the end, net. Net, I. I think I lost $50,000 on the thing.

A (47:38)

Now I'm still curious, though. How did you. How did you build it? Did you get the city to sign off?

B (47:43)

Oh, yeah, We. We won at the zoning board of appeals. Okay, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. We got. We got all. All 12 violation relief for all 12 violations. The expiration on the deed restriction had passed. The next day we filed for the permit, and the deed restriction didn't apply anymore, so we were able to get the permit, and then we. We built it and sold the. The two townhomes.

A (48:08)

Mm. Okay, so that. And that's what you meant when you said the seller forced you to do it because. Were you just trying to sell the lot to somebody else after all this madness and let them.

B (48:18)

Yeah, yeah, We. We had a. You know, just. Just to put some numbers on this, we had bought it for 50, 000. I spent another 150, 000 in soft cost. So we were all in for 200. I had an offer in 2022, I think it was 2021 for $450,000. So in my book, I was like, this is a win. We're both going to make a hundred grand. You already got 50. Like, this is a good day for both of us. Like, let's get out of this thing. At the closing table, he blew it up and was like, I'm not signing it.

A (48:53)

So did he say why?

B (48:56)

No.

A (48:56)

Do you think he wanted.

B (48:57)

He wanted 200. He wanted. He wanted all of it? Yeah, he wanted all $250,000 of profit in addition to the 50 he had already gotten.

A (49:06)

But he wasn't involved in all the expenses that you took on for the surveying and everything. That was all you.

B (49:13)

Correct.

A (49:14)

And was there anything in that operating agreement that said you recoup that, like those are expenses in this project before you split any profit?

B (49:22)

Yes, that was, that. That was in there. And so basically he. We were looking at, after, you know, realtor fees, closing costs and everything, we were looking at 100 grand each, in. In profit. But that wasn't good enough for him.

A (49:35)

Okay, okay. So at every level, you had zero help with this thing.

B (49:41)

Yeah.

A (49:41)

And instead of quitting, which is what almost everyone I've ever met would do, you just said, well, I'm just gonna push through. And it sounds like what you're saying earlier is you realized after that deal it just couldn't get worse. You, if you got through that, there probably wasn't a deal you were gonna see that could be too hard for you to deal with. Is this where your confidence came from to keep on investing in real estate?

B (50:05)

Yeah, I think I was, I was a year into it and I had gotten synced up with the attorneys who broke down how the deed restriction thing worked and, you know, how, you know, zoning relief worked. And they wanted $20,000 to represent me through this whole process, which I didn't have. So I was like, I would love to, but I'm going to do it on my own. And that was. That was when I realized that. I actually realized that there was such a big opportunity there because I had found people who actually knew what I was dealing with. I just couldn't afford to hire them. And so what really got me through it was knowing that there was a chance the zoning board of appeal not only could give me the ability to have a permit there, but that if I was able to do it all on my own and learn the process, I could replicate it. Like I. I had a very vivid moment where I said, if I can get a non buildable deed restricted lot, that's an absolute disaster of a financial transaction right now to a place where I can have a permit on it. I knew that there was a huge opportunity in Boston specifically to do it again and again and again because it's some crazy statistic like 90% of lots or existing buildings in Boston are non conforming to the zoning code. And so I just knew there was a huge opportunity there.

A (51:40)

All right. So I've often said the only good thing about going through hell is you learn how the devil works. That's Kind of what happened here, like you went through this just hell. But now you have a really good knowledge base that few people have on how to build not just on a lot, but on a deed restricted lot. So did you then start targeting specific deed restricted lots that other investors didn't want to buy?

B (52:08)

So we didn't target deed restricted lots, we targeted non conforming lots. So I'll give you a perfect example. So what, what kind of transpired from this was a deep understanding of how zoning code works. And for the listeners out there, you guys could just probably Google zoning Viewer and your town and you can see a fantastic database of the zoning for not only where you're renting or owning, but also, you know, investment properties that you guys may have or whatever. And you'll, you'll see a chart and it'll say, you know, 2 family 6,000 square feet required or 3 family 9,000 square feet required. And in Boston, what we did was we, we basically reached out to 50 realtors and said, hey, any lot that's smaller than 4,000 square feet, send it to us. Even if you're, even if it's not listed. And depending on where it is and what it is, we would run the numbers of, okay, what happens if we can get a three, a triple decker here? What happens if we can get two townhomes here? What happens if we could get 10 units here? And so what's, what sort of evolved from this story is all we do is go after lots that most people just walk away from. Because going to the zoning board of appeals is very risky. It's called entitlement risk. And so 99% of mom and pops developers, institutional money, they won't go near these lots of. Because there's nothing you can build by.

A (53:43)

Right.

B (53:45)

Okay. That's, that's the whole business model.

A (53:48)

So my mind goes to this dilemma. You try to buy the thing, not knowing if you can build on it. You're taking a risk because you may end up with a lot that is basically useless. The only the neighbor has an easement to even get into it. Or you try to get the right to build it and then buy it. And that isn't something the seller wants to deal with. Because if you get the right to build, they're like, well now it's worth a lot more money. So I don't want to sell to you for that price. So there's got to be a creative solution here that you can use for your favor. Would you mind sharing what you came up with?

B (54:25)

Yeah, totally. So when you make an offer to purchase real estate, typically it's, you know, you have X amount of days for due diligence, period, and you'll have a contingency. Most contingencies that people are familiar with are a financing contingency, the ability to get a loan to buy the property, or an inspection contingency, the ability to have an inspection and walk through the property with a licensed inspector and then review the report. And if you find something that you don't like, you usually negotiate a concession or you walk away from the deal. In our case, we have a permit contingency. And so what we do is we make an offer to the sellers contingent on not only going to the Zoning Board of Appeals, but then getting the permit issued from the city. And that process now takes anywhere from nine to 18 months. And so we're very transparent with the sellers, and it's a lot of educating the agents on the process that we just walked through. But most people have lots or properties that are sitting for three, six, nine months that nobody wants to buy. And a lot of what we. A lot of what we propose is like, hey, by the time you actually sell this lot, you're either gonna, a, take a huge haircut on the price, which we could also do. We could give you a cash offer, or B, you can work with us and wait for us to get the permit. We've done 22 rezoning projects successfully. Here's our track record. All we do is go to the Zoning Board of Appeals. As soon as we have the permit, we'll close.

A (56:06)

Okay, so this is sort of like a. I mean, did you refer to as an option?

B (56:11)

Yeah, it's like a good way to think of it is like an options contract. Like, we have the right to buy this property once we get a. A permit. And so they do have to take it off the MLS if it's on the MLS because it's under agreement, it's just contingent on a permit. And then if we go to the Zoning Board of Appeals, the only money that we risk is the money spent on surveyors, architects, engineers.

A (56:38)

And you're doing that before you go

B (56:40)

to the board doing the.

A (56:43)

Yeah, I guess you'd have to, because you have to present them with your plans before.

B (56:46)

Yeah, you have to. Have to file a set of plans.

A (56:49)

Yeah. Okay. What's your average lot cost that you're looking to buy here?

B (56:54)

Right now, we are looking at anywhere from 250,000 to 750,000, depending on what it is. As of late, we've Gone for some higher profile projects in very dense parts of Boston. We've gone as high as 1.5 million.

A (57:21)

Just for the dirt.

B (57:22)

Just for the dirt.

A (57:24)

Wow.

B (57:25)

Yeah. But you're talking, you're. I'll give you a quick example for the listeners out there. You know, we have, it's a five unit strip mall that's zoned as a two family. So it's existing non conforming. It's on the corner of a main corridor in, in Boston and we're going to try to build six stories and 20,000 square feet on a 5,000 square foot footprint.

A (57:58)

Okay, that's. Wow. This is like. It's such a cool thing you got into. Yeah, it just feels like divine intervention, man. Like the odds that you would go through whether you believe in God or the universe or whatever, this process of getting your teeth kicked in from every single angle. But you didn't quit. And then the reward was, well, now you got a skill set nobody else has because nobody else was willing to get their teeth kicked in and not quit. Everybody else tapped out. It was just too hard for them. Which means you can go buy these things at massive discounts because you know how to do something no one else knows how to do and you're willing to do stuff other people aren't. Well, I'm sure the big developers know how to do what you're doing, but they're probably busy building the stuff as opposed to finding where to do it. So now that you've got this skill, are you doing what that original seller did to you and you're working yourself in as a JV with the builder? Are you just selling this stuff directly to developers or are you building it?

B (59:01)

So great, great question. We actually partner with a lot of GCs in Boston in a contracted way where we're actually the development company. So we pay for everything directly and source everything and negotiate all of the costs for subs and labor and materials and everything. But we'll bring on a GC and pay them $100,000, $200,000 to manage a project. And so they're there day to day. They have the 20, 30, 40 years of construction experience to make sure that either their people they're bringing in or our people that we're bringing in are actually showing up every day and doing what they need to do. Where we're partnering more is with investors. So obviously this is only so scalable when you start talking about $500,000 lots, million dollar lots. And so what we're really focusing on right now is partnering with investors. And we're very selective about, you know, who we work with because it's such a niche thing. And we'll go in and instead of doing an options contract, if. If the deal is right and it's rich enough, they'll bring the down payment for the acquisition of the lot and we'll go take it through entitlement, if we know it's a sure thing. And then they get to enjoy coming in at basis of pre entitlement.

A (60:32)

And you say if you know it's a sure thing. Is this for non deed restricted lots? Or if you just feel, yeah, we don't.

B (60:38)

We don't touch deep restricted anymore.

A (60:40)

Okay. Even if you feel like you can go through the entitlement process, you still don't want to deal with the deed restrictions. It's more just getting the permit to build.

B (60:47)

Yeah. Because getting zoning relief is one thing. Right. Like, we can get 10 to 12 violations for zoning setbacks, height, density, whatever. But getting a deed restriction lifted is a heck of a process. Not just getting it lifted, but then to ensure title afterwards. It's. It's very hard to sell something that was formerly deed restricted.

A (61:15)

I'm just thinking about the skill that you have to go to the city and deal with it. There may be people thinking, big deal. You're just having conversations, which technically is true. But I don't think I could do it. Honestly, like, my personality. I get so angry when I have to deal with some W2 worker who's getting 65 grand a year to figure out a way to say no and push things off their plate, which is what they do in the city. I don't have the patience. I just want to yell at them like, listen, dude, you get paid by taxpayer dollars. Your job is to make this easier for us. You are a public servant that should be serving me, the public, to help do this. Now, I understand there's things that have to be done, but you're not supposed to tell me no and, like, make it harder for me to do it. Which is what every experience I've ever had with the city official was.

B (62:09)

Yeah.

A (62:10)

And I can't. Like, I don't know how to be nice and be patient in those situations. I get so mad. But I was able to be a cop, which some people just. They probably couldn't do that job. They couldn't go to dangerous people in Oakland and say, like, nope, you're going to do this. You have a warrant for kidnapping or carjacking, and you're coming with me. And they're like, no, I'm not. And now what? Right? I was able to deal with those kind of people and I just have so much respect for guys like you that know how to stand your ground, come up with a plan, patiently but firmly go through this process. You know where to put the pressure on, when to be tougher and when you got to play nice with this guy. Like there's a skill here is what I'm trying to say. It's not, it's kind of like Jiu jitsu. It's not just walk in and overpower somebody. There's where you're putting your weight, how you're shifting things around. And I know I couldn't do it. I am not built to have the level of patience with those situations that guys like you can. And it's frustrating that we live in a world where that is what you have to learn because they should be making it easier for people to build, especially when there's not enough housing. But you did it. And I'm just so proud that you're sharing this story of you didn't quit and now you have this skill that so few people in the world actually have that you can get this stuff done. It's amazing. I'm almost like out of words for just, and angry that it even has to be this way, but proud that you were able to figure this thing out. Like, at what point did you turn the corner and realize, dude, I got a skill here that's very valuable and cool and you realize that for yourself? Yourself?

B (63:43)

Yeah, I, I, I think when I turned the corner was there was a, There was a 99 year land lease on, on MLS and the lot was like 40,000 square feet. They wanted in, you know, eight figures for the, for the thing. And the seller was the archdiocese, which for those of you who don't know, it's, that's the Catholic Church's organization who actually buys and sells real estate. And I hopped on a call with them and I said, hey, I, I want nothing to do with this property. But in the back of your property there's like a little corner that I know if we subdivide it, it's going to be a non conforming lot. It's going to actually have no zoning assigned to it. But I think I could get proper permits for a four story building there. Do you guys have any interest in letting me like section off a little piece of, of your lot and waiting three years for a check and, and they said yes. And so I, I think that was when I knew I was able to sort of articulate what it was that I had learned how to do and actually turn it into a, a deal with a very sophisticated seller. Because, you know, the archdiocese, they have like seven people on their calls that are all institutional grade people who like, used to work at Goldman or like, wow, law firms and you know, being able to, to leave that call with a deal. I know what I'm doing.

A (65:29)

Yeah, absolutely, man. Now you said you're at 40 units now. Yeah. Are these, are these all stuff you acquired doing what we're talking about today?

B (65:38)

Yes, except one. There's three units. That was just. I, I always wanted a property in Newport, Rhode Island. It was, I grew up in, you know, a middle class area of Rhode island and all the rich people lived in Newport. And so for me, I was like, one day I'm gonna open own something in Newport. And so that's the only, that's the only outlier.

A (66:00)

I think every city called Newport I've ever heard of has been a rich area. Now that you mentioned this.

B (66:07)

Yeah. Newport, California. Newport Beach.

A (66:09)

Yeah. Super rich area. Rich area. Yeah. All right. So that was when you just bought. Or did you buy it and rehab it?

B (66:17)

That one was just a, A rehab. That's a, that's a totally different tangent with a contractor who stole a quarter million dollars.

A (66:25)

But we can save that one for another day. We didn't even get into that. We're gonna do that one on a different episode. I thought about like trying to hit everything that you have in one show, but I think there's so much to share here. We'll just have you back a couple different times with a different story to tell at the campfire for all the rest of us to learn from. How you navigated just getting beat up all the time. Have you ever seen that movie Nobody? Or Nobody too. It's like John Wick style. It's kind of like a guy that's not as cool as Keanu Reeves. John Wick that just like, he's like a tough guy that just gets beat up constantly but doesn't quit. This just reminds me of what your journey started off like. It's not fun. You're just losing at every single level. And that's why we started the show off explaining if you walked into this hearing all the heroes journey stories, that they only told you about the end. They didn't tell you about the matte burns on your feet and the sore neck muscles. And there's nothing wrong with you when you suck in the beginning, you're supposed to suck. Yeah, the. The problem is, like, have you ever done snowboarding before? Yeah. Yeah. Hard as hell when you start. It is not fun, man. It is not fun. I never even. I've only gone, like, maybe seven times my whole life over 15 years, so I never got good at it. And every time I go snowboarding, I hate it every time because I'm always in that beginner phase. But no one told me that. I thought, you just get up there and shred. I was like, oh, this is miserable. Trying to figure this thing out. But had it been explained to me, look, you're gonna go for a whole season. Just chalk this up to, it's gonna suck every single day. And then after that, it'll be super fun and you'll love snowboarding. But I didn't do that. I went once, and then two years later, I went again, and it never worked out. So for those of you listening, a, let us know in the comments what you thought about Nick's story and just what you were thinking. Think when you're listening. And B, don't quit. Don't quit. Learn a lesson from me over the last three years. Learn a lesson from where Nick started. The only mistake you can really make is either quitting or losing everything in your first hand so that you never actually learn how to play the game. You gotta stick with it. Success comes later in your journey. It does not come early. This whole idea that you buy a couple houses and then retire came from the people selling courses for a lot of money. And by the way, a lot of these people that were explaining how they bought all these units and you can, too, they bought them with the money that you gave them for their courses. You got ripped off. You paid 10 grand, and so did 20 other people. And then they use that $200,000 to go buy all the real estate that they marketed to you that you can have also. That's the secret here. And that allowed them to sell more courses. You funded their success. Fund your own success. Start slow, make mistakes. Don't let yourself get taken out of the game. Stick with it. And in the end, it's almost impossible not to succeed if you just keep going. We're going to have you back again, Nick. But before you go, any last words you want to share with everybody?

B (69:16)

Yeah, I mean, thank you for everything, David. I. I think your. Your podcast that you have here is just so different from. From everything out there. And for all of you guys listening, keep listening the content that he's been putting out has just been absolutely phenomenal. And yeah, don't give up. It's so easy to just say this is hard and I don't want to do this anymore. But I promise you with whatever you're doing in life, whether it's your job, your career, your first deal, if you don't quit and you actually double down on your effort in five years, your future self will thank you. And one thing I'll just give the listeners here as a pro tip is have a conversation with your future self. Just picture yourself with somebody five years from now and don't ask people in your circle, don't ask your friends for advice, don't ask your family for advice. Right. Ask yourself for advice. I'm 29. I asked 34 year old Nick all the time, hey, what do you think you should be doing for the next six months? What do you think you should be doing in this situation? What's the right move here? And oftentimes when you ask your future self for the best advice, you're going to get the best advice from yourself.

A (70:30)

That's awesome. Love that, man. If people want to reach out, give you some encouragement, learn about what you're doing or invest in deals with you, where can they go?

B (70:37)

Yeah, you guys can check us out@beaudevelopment.com b e a u development.com and you can reach out right there on the contact form or you can email info development.com and you know, super excited to help people in their journeys as well.

A (70:54)

All right, the last thing that I don't tell anybody about, so it's a surprise from every single person here, but I've been doing at the end of my shows is I asked the guest what's something that you always wanted to ask me but never had the chance to or were nervous to ask.

B (71:10)

Oh, that's a good one. What is your five year goal?

A (71:21)

Okay, that's really good. My five year goal does not have anything to do with real estate right now.

B (71:26)

Perfect.

A (71:27)

I have, I've gone through these phases in life so I was like super passionate about saving money when I was in college, which I know was God setting me up to invest in real estate because the market crashed in 2010. I graduated college with my school, paid for 100 grand in the bank because I just worked fanatically being a waiter and saving up the money at nice restaurants and so I was set up. And then I got out of college and I got the bug to get into law enforcement and I just hit. I had so many Setbacks, just like you trying to get into it. Was told no over and over and over. Applied at 17 different departments before I got picked up. So when I finally got picked up, I hit the police academy like juggernaut in the X Men. And then it was a very difficult academy, one of the hardest two in the state of California. So when I graduated academy, I was very prepared. I hit the ground running as a deputy, did really, really good. Then I got laid off from all the 2010 collapse of property taxes, funding the sheriff's office, went to become a police officer, hit the ground running at that department, and I was. I quickly became the top cop in the whole place because I had come from a very difficult environment, working in the sheriff's office with, like, no money and high expectations. Now we had tons of money, great gear, and a very low expectation for performance. And so I was like, in half my shift, I had done more than most guys did in a month. It was like that type of a thing. So that was really good, too. And then I got out of that. I lost the passion for it, and I felt like, hey, you're supposed to go become a real estate agent. So I started learning how to sell houses. I built the David Green team. Then I got a passion for educating people about real estate instead of selling it. Like, I didn't want to convince you to buy a house. I just wanted to teach you how to do it. And that worked good for me. My business, which, lo and behold, open up doors, and I become a podcast host, and then I write books. And so all these, like, pretty cool accomplishments, or maybe you didn't even call them accomplishments. Opportunities that I've had started with a desire to do the thing that was building in me before it came, which is why I resonate with your story. Like, I can see God's hand moving here, that he prepared you for what you're doing now, it just did not feel like it when you were. When you were there. Right. And I feel like what's happening right now is I'm being prepared to share information that is a little bit less about wealth building from the perspective of money in the bank and actual money, and more into spiritual things. And that's because what I see coming down the pike is not good. It's some form of socialism. It's AI ripping people's jobs away. It'll probably come in the door through universal basic income, something like that that I don't like at all. I like human beings doing what you did, building up experience, building up skills Building up knowledge, using that to prosper, creating jobs for other people who want to come along and learn this kind of a thing. Eventually building a company where they mentor and teach and apprentice people. Then that person later in life when their body can't do the work it used to do, sort of coasts on their experience and mentorship. And the people with all the energy, the youth step in and they needed someone to mentor them. And there's this, like, symbiotic relationship that I think God meant for humans to do that. Our current system of government is sort of replacing, yeah, we are no longer taking care of each other. It's like, no, the government's going to pay for this. The government's going to pay for that. You give your allegiance to the government, and then we will take care of all your needs. Which is very scary and dangerous from my perspective, because humans are losing autonomy over riding their own story and becoming who they were supposed to be. I see myself in five years sharing that perspective and maybe more of the specific tactics that I see being used against us to tear people away from getting the most out of themselves, using their gifts, connecting with the Creator that gave them these gifts to use, and learning how to love each other against our common enemy. I see a lot of what goes on today is usually thinking that each other's the enemy. We're all fighting with each other. Not. It's kind of like. Did you ever watch Game of Thrones? Yeah, Right. Do you remember, like, in the beginning seasons of it, all of the different houses were fighting with each other, but the real enemy was the White Walkers.

B (75:42)

Yeah.

A (75:43)

And Jon Snow was kind of trying to convince everybody, you guys are morons that are all fighting for power when the real enemy is just going to come kill us. We need to be uniting. I. That is cheesy, but it is literally what I see happening in the world today, that we're all bickering and fighting over who gets more position and who gets more attention and who gets the power and who gets noticed and who's in the best seat at the table. When there is an enemy that wants to destroy human autonomy completely, I would much rather put my focus and have a platform where I can open people's eyes to that. And then as downstream from that, we understand how important it is to make money and save money and have our own income so that we are not dependent on that force that I think wants to. To destroy us. I know that's a long winded answer, but that's. I've started a. A Faith based mastermind called Spartan League. We meet every single Wednesday night. It's free for everybody wants to join. I'm getting ready to start a new YouTube channel very soon here called the Green Pill. It's kind of like a play on the red pill versus the blue pill fighting where this is what I think is God's plan and how he created and designed us to work. And we work best when we do it this way to share that message. And I'm still, I still like teaching people about real estate. I still think wealth is important, but not so that we can say, I'm better than you. Or I could be on a podcast and say, look at me, I have all these units and I'm better than everyone else's. It's so that we literally are not dependent on what I've called the government. But there's also forces behind that that will take care of us. Because I don't think that other people have our best interest in mind as much as we do.

B (77:17)

Yeah, no, I, I love that, David. And yeah, you're such a, you're such an inspiration on so many levels. And I, I, I also hope one day we can start being a more, you know, united humanitarian front against all of the, you know, global things that humanity is facing right now, you know, and stop fighting with each other. It's, it's not productive as a society.

A (77:40)

100 and a lot of when I look at what drives the fighting, too many people are pointing the finger at outside sources when there's literally ambitions within us that are bad, that drive it right. Like we want to be important, we see what someone else has, we covet that, we want what someone else has. Or we compare ourselves to other people and we think, well, they're above me. I'm in a competition with those people. I got to get a step above them versus recognizing if you don't want those things, then you can't be tempted by those things. And then love has a chance to flourish where you treat someone the way you want to be. Treat, Treat it. Like I said, that's my standard for what makes someone a good person or not. So thanks for letting me share that. I don't get a chance to talk about that stuff very often. When I start the Green Pill YouTube channel, I'll be talking about it more there. But I'd love for that to be what I am known for. How to help people have a better relationship with God. And then as a result of that, you find that you're making more money, you're doing better at work. You're learning skills like what you learn. Because to me, the epicenter of your entire success is that you didn't quit. That we could talk about all the things you learned and people like that, but it don't matter if you give them all that information if they quit when they step in the ring, right? Yeah.

B (78:54)

You just can't quit, man. That's. That's the bottom line, you know, And I think too many, too many people fall. Fall. Trapped to it.

A (79:01)

It's.

B (79:01)

It's too easy to quit. It's hard to keep going. It's hard.

A (79:05)

Dude. You know Hal Elrod, he wrote the Miracle Morning. It was a popular book a while ago. Okay, Hal. Hal told me one time we were talking about. About something, he goes, you know, it's working out's not that hard. It's pretty easy to get up in the morning and work out, but it's even easier not to. Yeah. I was like, ain't that the truth, man? Like, nothing we do in today's world is that hard. It's just even easier not to do it. And that's what we end up doing.

B (79:31)

It's. It's. It's crazy. You know, we just. We live in a world where everything can be so easy that it's unproductive. Like, you could spend your whole day scrolling on Instagram TikTok YouTube shorts and literally do nothing, and you'll never get anywhere because it's just. It's so easy. Wake up in bed, scroll, eat, shower, go back to bed, do it all again the next day.

A (79:55)

It's. That's so true, dude. That's what I was talking about earlier. And there's temptation in the world that is, like, pushing you to work towards that. Right? And the people that love each other are grabbing each other, trying to pull each other back from that. Don't go that way. Resist that. We have to focus on what we're building in ourselves today, what we're learning today, what our mission is right now. And so if you guys are listening and you think, hey, I'd like to learn more about that. I want to get on a mission. Reach out to me about Spartan League. I'll get you the information. It's completely free. Not something I'm doing to make any money. And if you guys were inspired by Nicholas's journey, let us know in the comments what you thought about today, Today's show. And reach out to him to let him know. Nick, we'll be reaching out to you to schedule another one of these after the holidays.

B (80:36)

Awesome. Thanks so much, David and Hope. Hope I could have helped someone out there somewhere. So thanks again for everything and we'll talk soon.

A (80:44)

Appreciate it, man. Take care and thanks for listening, everybody. If you like today's show, do me a favor and support today's show sponsor. Today's show was sponsored by Price Labs. Price Labs is software that we use in my short term rental management company, coast to Coast Getaways to make sure that our clients are making as much money as humanly possible and keeping their properties booked as much as they can be. It's what we use to adjust the pricing up and down to make sure that we're not leaving anything on the table and we're not missing out on bookings because we're priced too high. If you guys are interested in that, reach out to them and say you heard from David Green. Or you can reach out to me directly. Just go to davidgreen.com use the chat feature and let me know you'd like to be introduced to Price Labs and I will connect you myself. Thanks everybody for listening and we'll see you next week on the David Green Show.