← The Deep Dish
The Deep Dish
A Deep Dish Birthday Party (with Special Guests)!
00:39:32
To celebrate the first birthday of The Deep Dish, Courtney and Melissa welcome special surprise guests to answer tough questions sent in by listeners.
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- [00:02]
Narrator
What does it look like to be called to ministry? For some, it's a growing burden to preach the Word. For others, it's a desire to disciple, to teach to shepherd God's people with faithfulness and clarity. However it begins, a call to serve Christ in His church is something worth pursuing with care. That's why our friends at Midwestern Seminary are inviting you to explore called a campaign designed to support aspiring pastors and ministry leaders as they pursue God's calling on their lives. This year, during the month of March, they're giving away More than 60 books focused on preaching and teaching, discipleship, theology and biblical studies resources to help you grow in conviction, clarity and confidence as you serve the church. Everyone who enters will also receive a brand new e book from Charles Spurgeon titled Fit to on the Call to Pastoral Ministry, a timeless encouragement for those discerning and preparing for pastoral service. You can enter to win the book giveaway and discover a wide range of resources designed to help you take your next step in ministry. If you're discerning a call to ministry or want to be better equipped for the work God has placed in front of you, visit mbts Edu called that's mbts Edu called.
- [01:22]
Courtney Docter
At the Gospel Coalition Women's Conference next June, thousands of women from around the world will gather in Indianapolis to turn their eyes to Jesus. In the seven keynote sessions, we'll learn from the Psalms how to bring our emotions and experiences, all of life to God so that our lives are transformed by His. Keynote speakers are Nancy Guthrie, Vanessa Hawkins, Melissa Krueger, Ruth Cho Simons, Mark Grogop, Jen Wilkin and me, Courtney Docter. TGCW 26 is a conference for women about God. Join us for three days of gospel centered teaching, worship, learning and connection. Go to tgcw26.com that's tgcw26.com.
- [02:16]
Melissa Krueger
Our listeners don't give us light and fluffy little questions. Y' all like Deep Dish and you like to ask deep questions. So we brought in some help today to help us celebrate, but also to help answer some of these questions. But we're gonna start with one and then surprise people will be dropping in on us along the way. Do you want to talk about first?
- [02:37]
Courtney Docter
No.
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Nancy Guthrie
Okay.
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Courtney Docter
No.
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Nancy Guthrie
No.
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Courtney Docter
Okay, we'll keep it as. We just have to take this. Yeah, I love the surprise aspect of this.
- [02:43]
Melissa Krueger
Okay, we'll keep it a surprise.
- [02:52]
Courtney Docter
Welcome to welcome to the Deep Dish, a podcast from the Gospel Coalition where we love having deep conversations about deep truths. I am Courtney Docter and I'M here with my friend and co host Melissa Krueger. And today I wish I had like balloons or something because we are celebrating the one year anniversary of the Deep Dish. It's kind of hard, it's kind of hard to believe, but so fun.
- [03:13]
Melissa Krueger
I know it's been such a fun place to have these conversations. And what's been really wonderful and surprising is so many people all over we hear from, are listening in. I mean, it's been such a gift to us to continue these conversations, different places we go. I mean, Courtney, you were all the way in Australia talking to people and they were talking about the Deep Dish, which is kind of just amazing. Amazing to me. But let me ask you this. What's been one of your favorite episodes or maybe even surprises about hosting this year?
- [03:48]
Courtney Docter
Yeah, I think part of the surprise has been just that, that people actually want to listen to you and me having these conversations because we've said it so many times, these are kind of normal conversations that you and I tend to have. And then we just are hitting record. And so it's been so fun to have people join us for those and then to hear, you know, ways that they've taken the conversations and furthered them with people in their real life. And I would just say, yeah, the, the places that I've been that people are, are saying that they're listening to the Deep Dish. So shout out to my friends in Perth, Australia. I mean, it's pretty far away. And they were loving the Deep Dish. And so we're just, we're just praising God because we're having a blast. And our prayer has been the whole time that this would be, these would be conversations that serve you in your real life and with your real friends and that you just continue to do this. I'd say one of my favorite episodes is actually one of the. It's hard to pick, right? But there was something really almost sacred for me about interviewing Colleen Chow. If you haven't listened to that episode, it's, it was just a really beautiful gift that she gave us by spending time and energy on the podcast. And I just really value that, that episode in a, in a unique way. But one of our favorite ways. So we love these podcasts to be as interactive as possible. So a lot of times we'll ask you to make comments in, in the chat or not the chat, but in the notes and, and then we give you discussion questions. But one of our favorite ways, this is the second time we've done it to bring listeners into the show. Is to ask you for questions and then try to answer them. So today we're actually going to gather. You guys were great. You sent in some great questions, but we're going to spend some time answering some of those that you sent in. But, Melissa, what about you? What have been either one of your favorite episodes or just something that's been really surprising about this?
- [05:49]
Nancy Guthrie
Yeah.
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Melissa Krueger
You know, what I can say that's been surprising to me is that I'm actually learning in real time. I know that you may think we get on this and we have everything ready that we're going to say and Courtney might, but I do not. And I think as we discuss these topics, what's been really sweet to me is the spiritual growth that's done in my own life. Like one of the episodes in particular, I just remember we were having the gossip conversation. Things were clicking in my head, and I was like, ooh, I need to think about this differently. And so I think what I've loved about it is it's. Yeah, it's been a place where we get to chew through ideas, you know, or. That sounds weird. Chew on ideas and discuss these things as we have thought about them. But really, I'm learning from you, and I'm learning in having the space to have the conversation. Does that make sense? Like, just.
- [06:50]
Courtney Docter
Yeah, no, definitely. I was.
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Nancy Guthrie
Yeah.
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Courtney Docter
Even, like, the theology of the body conversation, like, that was learning in real time for me. Things were shifting in my own heart as we were having that conversation. Well, one of our favorite ways to bring listeners into the show is to ask and answer your questions. So that's exactly what we're going to do today, just as a way of celebrating, as a way of saying thank you, as a way of saying, we. We love doing this with you. We're going to spend some time answering some that you have all sent in. But that's not the only thing, right?
- [07:24]
Melissa Krueger
Well, yeah, because. Well, one thing I just want to say, our listeners don't give us light and fluffy little questions. Y' all like deep dish, and you like to ask deep questions. So we brought in some help today to help us celebrate, but also to help answer some of these questions. But we're going to start with one, and then surprise people will be dropping in on us along the way. Do you want something to be first?
- [07:47]
Courtney Docter
No.
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Melissa Krueger
Okay.
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Courtney Docter
No, no.
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Vanessa K. Hawkins
Okay.
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Courtney Docter
We'll keep it. We just have to take this. Yeah, I love this surprise aspect of this. Okay.
- [07:53]
Melissa Krueger
We'll keep it a surprise. Well, let me ask you this question. To begin, this was A good question from a listener out there. How do you keep from measuring spiritual growth by productivity or consistency rather than dependency on Christ?
- [08:08]
Jen Wilkin
That's.
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Courtney Docter
It's hard. I. I find myself, you know, it's one of those things. It's like I drift back into measuring it by product or consistency, and then it's like, no, I have to shift my heart back into just reminding myself the truth of the gospel. These things that, like the work that we've been called to do, all of us, it is a privilege and a joy. It is not a marker of our spiritual growth. And so I have to untether my heart from wanting those things that I can almost bring and present to God. Right? Like, look, I've had, you know, I've spent time in prayer for five consistent days in a row. Or. Or, look, I got to. You work on writing this. This thought about you out and share it with a friend and, like, presenting them to God. And so when I see myself doing that, it's like, no, I have to remember again, the gospel, that these things are a joy and a privilege, but they are not. They are not what constitute my relationship with Father, Son, with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. That is grace and faith, and through the Word and the Spirit. So what about you that's so good?
- [09:17]
Melissa Krueger
Well, you know, this question took me down a whole rabbit trail in my mind because I was like, how do we measure spiritual growth? You know, I've never really thought about it. Like, how do I actually say I've grown in something spiritually? And, you know, so I was really thinking about that, and I realized we want to measure it, but I don't think it's actually measured. Like, I don't think there are measurements we take. I think spiritual growth is revealed rather than measured. And so it's like, oh, and that totally changes how you think about it. You start to realize, okay, this hard situation happened, and maybe the spiritual growth is. I turn to prayer before turning to five friends to talk about it, you know, and so it's revealed in us rather than measured by us. And so that's been a shift, I think, even as I heard that question. I think that shift helps us realize it's something God shows us he's done in us rather than we show God we've done.
- [10:23]
Courtney Docter
Yeah, greater peace in a situation that we shouldn't have peace, greater trust in all of those things that, like, maybe
- [10:32]
Melissa Krueger
I didn't lose it and yell at everybody about the dishes all being done.
- [10:35]
Courtney Docter
You know, you're like, oh, right, I
- [10:37]
Melissa Krueger
Handled that with patience. And the Lord shows us, rather than, yeah, I did these things. And now. Now I.
- [10:48]
Courtney Docter
Over the long haul, you look back and you're like, oh, sanctification is actually real. Praise God. Like, by his grace.
- [10:56]
Melissa Krueger
That's right.
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Courtney Docter
Nancy, perfect timing.
- [11:02]
Melissa Krueger
Our first guest.
- [11:04]
Courtney Docter
How are you? We're good. We're good. Because you can sing. I kind of want to ask you to sing Happy Birthday to us, but, you know.
- [11:14]
Nancy Guthrie
No, I only sing spiritual songs.
- [11:17]
Courtney Docter
That's so true. That's so true. Well, Nancy, thanks for popping on and being a part of our birthday party. We are so happy for what you
- [11:28]
Nancy Guthrie
guys have done and are doing. It's terrific.
- [11:32]
Courtney Docter
Thanks. Well, we love. I always go back to that. One of the first episodes that we released was the one on prayer, and we had. Melissa and I were just talking about the fact that we learn and real time during these conversations, and that was one of those that I just remember thinking, wow, my prayer life is shifting because of this conversation. I'm just really grateful for that. We're also really grateful for your help because, like Melissa already said, our listeners do not hand in light and fluffy questions. So we have brought in res. You know, whenever you get stumped with a question, you just bring in Nancy Guthrie. Like, that's. You know, I was kind of thinking
- [12:09]
Nancy Guthrie
that's what you were doing.
- [12:11]
Courtney Docter
That is exactly what we were doing.
- [12:13]
Melissa Krueger
You know what we're doing, Nancy. You know us well.
- [12:16]
Courtney Docter
Yeah, exactly. Get all this expertise. Well, I want to start with one that came in, and I actually, this is going to be me learning in real time again. How do you. Here's the question. How do you discern the difference between conviction from the spirit and shame?
- [12:33]
Nancy Guthrie
Yeah. Well, I appreciate you giving me the opportunity to think this through and talk about it. You know, shame in our lives, which is very real. But I. I think it's. The accusers work in our life with a very specific purpose that. That. That the. The accuser, the enemy of our soul, always has the purpose of alienating us from Christ and paralyzing us in our sin. That's what he wants to do. What is it? First, Peter says that, you know, that he's like a lion seeking to devour us. And so I think shame is a way that he devours us, because doesn't that fit? I mean, that. That sense of, like, shame eats you up from the inside. The accuser's voice is. Here's what he says. He says, you should be ashamed of yourself. And the accuser says, this is who you are. And you can never change. So there's the voice of shame in our lives. But the voice of the Spirit in our lives is the one that brings conviction. And he also has a purpose. His purpose is to bring us to confession and to welcome us into the healing that only he can do so, whereas the. The voice of the enemy in our lives says, you should be ashamed, the voice of Christ in our lives, speaking to us by his Spirit, says, I love you too much to let you linger in this sin that's only going to destroy you. And so I want you to see it, and I want you to humble yourself and confess it. And then you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to cleanse you. And so that's what the voice of Christ is. And the voice of the Spirit says, I can provide you with supernatural power to change so this doesn't have to continue dominating your life. And the voice of the Father says to us, because you are joined to Christ, I want you to know that you are always welcome to come to my throne. And my throne is a throne of grace. And I give grace and the help needed when you need it.
- [15:15]
Melissa Krueger
Nancy, that's so good. When you were talking about that paralyzing nature of shame, I had this. Yeah, I was thinking, oh, like a snake bite you, and then what? You know, how is Satan referred to so often? The serpent of old. And it's like his words trap us. You know, steal, kill, and destroy. That's what he's seeking to do to us and put us in jail. Whereas I think of Romans where it's like, there's no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. It's this freedom, freedom from the past sin, but also a freedom to live a life of righteousness. So shame is always going to entrap. You can't do anything other than this. Okay, so the next one. This one's really tough. How do you seek advice about relationships or conflicts without it being gossip?
- [16:08]
Courtney Docter
Like, when I need to come to you about a problem with Melissa, how can I talk to you about it without gossiping about her?
- [16:19]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Exactly.
- [16:21]
Nancy Guthrie
All right. Well, I think the first thing is that you're very selective about that person that you might want to talk to about it. And so. And I think the reality is, for most of us, we kind of look for that person that's going to, like, dive in with and going, oh, my, she is such a jerk.
- [16:42]
Courtney Docter
Yes.
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Nancy Guthrie
Right. We are flesh. That's what our flesh wants. Our flesh wants someone who's going to go, I Can't believe she said that. I can't believe she did that. And just kind of feeds our sense of I am the wrong party and, you know, so and so has done wrong by me. And so what we really need is to look for that person who, who's going to be straightforward with us about our own part, our own ownership of this issue.
- [17:14]
Melissa Krueger
Let's gossip about her right now.
- [17:16]
Nancy Guthrie
Honestly. Yeah, I mean, it's just right. I mean, so, so we're looking for someone who's godly enough to go, yes, but maybe that wasn't what she was going for. And yes, but maybe there's this thing about you, you know, maybe it had to do with the way you asked or the person who's godly enough to say, yeah, but maybe you're jumping to some, some, some conclusions about what's her motive was or maybe you're ignoring some realities about what she's dealing with and what would have prompted her to respond that way or to do that. And so, so it's honestly, you know, it's not a huge number of people in my life. I mean, I am blessed with so many godly friends. But if we're going to choose the person to talk through about this conflict, we really do want to choose someone who is spiritually mature enough to recognize that there are always two sides to the story and is maybe going to force us to look at the other side. And also someone who's godly enough that has the integrity that she's going to keep it confidential, that it really isn't going to keep going on. But even before we. Maybe you've got that person. But even before you go, I think we do have to examine our motive. And honestly, a lot of times I don't want to. What I really want to do is vent and what I really want to do is to justify myself.
- [18:54]
Courtney Docter
Well, I liked it when you were talking about that whole. Didn't like it, but it resonated that whole idea. Like we try to build teams, right? We try to get everybody on our. Like, I'm going to tell you the story so that you hear it from my side and you know, I build like my team of support. But also as you were talking, I thought I want to grow, grow in my ability to be the type of friend you're describing so that when my friends come to me that I am that person who doesn't just agree with everything and really even grow and promote just the bitterness and arrogance and all of the things you mentioned in their own heart. But actually comes alongside and says, let's look at this in an open handed way.
- [19:37]
Nancy Guthrie
Let's try to assume the best. Someone else. Together.
- [19:43]
Courtney Docter
Together. Yeah, I, I thought that was really, yeah, really helpful and convicting and I want to be that person. Okay, another question for you, Nancy. Somebody sent in, what are some godly ways to bless and support my husband who doesn't express affection the way I would like? And you know, we had an entire episode where Melissa interviewed Ann Wilson on when you want to change your husband. So we'd refer people back to that too. But what, what would you say?
- [20:15]
Nancy Guthrie
It's a tough one, isn't it? Because we are so hungry for affection and we can be so demanding that it's delivered to us in the form in which we want it. So I, I think a couple of thoughts. First of all, I think we have to be ready to give generous affirmation when our husbands do something the way we do enjoy it and the way we hoped it would come to us. And so, and to not even couch it with any criticism, but just to say, oh, I love it when you do that. I love it when you say that. I mean, you know, so for me, like, you know, I'll be standing in the kitchen and David will come and he'll get behind me and put his arms around me. And I want to say, I love
- [21:08]
Courtney Docter
it when you do that.
- [21:10]
Nancy Guthrie
And I think that helps us not only for him to continue to do that one thing I think that gives our husbands a taste of, mmm, boy, it feels good to have given my wife some joy and some pleasure. And so I think that makes him want to do some other things maybe that we're really hoping he will do.
- [21:36]
Melissa Krueger
Is your idea of Jesus shaped more
- [21:38]
Jen Wilkin
by culture than by scripture?
- [21:40]
Melissa Krueger
In our instant world, we sometimes put Jesus into the role of a life
- [21:44]
Courtney Docter
coach, a therapist, or a political ally.
- [21:47]
Melissa Krueger
The Missing Messiah, a new book by
- [21:49]
Courtney Docter
Kyle Eidelman and Mark Moore, helps us understand how Western culture has gradually reshaped Jesus into our own image. It also explains the difference between a
- [21:59]
Melissa Krueger
personalized savior and a revolution visionary king.
- [22:02]
Courtney Docter
If you think there might be a
- [22:03]
Melissa Krueger
more dangerous, more majestic messiah than the one you've inherited, visit missingmosiah.com to learn more.
- [22:13]
Courtney Docter
That's so true and so fun. We have another guest on here. Can you not see her?
- [22:20]
Nancy Guthrie
Yes, I can. Oh, I can.
- [22:24]
Courtney Docter
Everybody probably knows just from the laughter, you know, but we weren't gossip.
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Melissa Krueger
We weren't gossiping about Jen, were we?
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Nancy Guthrie
What did you talk about already?
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Courtney Docter
We were not.
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Jen Wilkin
Nancy wouldn't Let us only nice things.
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Melissa Krueger
Nancy, got the gossip question.
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Nancy Guthrie
Jen, how is it there in where you are?
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Jen Wilkin
It's good. Jeff is bathing all three grandchildren right now. I can hear them. I don't know if you'll be able to hear them. It sounds like a herd of cattle.
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Nancy Guthrie
Yeah. We were just talking about how to show affection. I mean, that's a serious way to show affection, right? A worthwhile thing. Yeah.
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Jen Wilkin
I was. I was waiting to hop on here, and he. I texted him, I go, I'm not on yet. And he goes, I was stalling up here waiting for you to come help me give them baths.
- [23:03]
Courtney Docter
I was like, that's so funny. Tell him. Tell him the deep dish did not run on that time. You're like, on that time frame today
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Melissa Krueger
you had a birthday party.
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Nancy Guthrie
Mean I have to go away.
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Courtney Docter
Oh, no, you can. You can sit. The more the merrier the party. No, we have. We have yet another special guest that's going to join us in a minute.
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Nancy Guthrie
I'm gonna let you give Jen your full attention. But, Jen, I'm very happy to see you if.
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Jen Wilkin
I'm happy to see you too.
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Courtney Docter
I know y' all are the best. Thanks, Nancy.
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Nancy Guthrie
All right, I'll see you guys later.
- [23:38]
Courtney Docter
Okay. Thanks, friend.
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Nancy Guthrie
Bye.
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Courtney Docter
Bye. Well done. Thanks for popping into our birthday party.
- [23:45]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
We're.
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Courtney Docter
We're pretty excited about this.
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Jen Wilkin
Oh, my gosh. Happy birthday, guys.
- [23:49]
Nancy Guthrie
Thanks.
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Courtney Docter
Thanks. So what we're doing is we got this slew of questions from listeners, and so we're bringing in our friends to answer them because we think you guys will do a better job. So we're gonna. We saved all the hard ones for you and Nancy. And for our third guest, who's still a surprise. I know. But thanks for being such an integral part of the deep dish this year. You were in our kickoff episodes, some of the episodes you did on aging. That continues to be one that people have really. It's really resonated and help. And so thanks for just being a part of this with us. Now what we need to do is get deep dish pizza next time we're all together for sure. Okay, so here's one that we want to ask you for.
- [24:32]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Sure.
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Courtney Docter
When a passage of scripture is confusing, how long do you sit with the tension before. Or the dissonance, as you would say before seeking outside resources or answers.
- [24:44]
Nancy Guthrie
Yeah.
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Jen Wilkin
Oh, it's. Obviously, it's going to depend on what kind of question you're dealing with. Like, what genre are you in? Some of the genres are easier to understand than others, but I would Say that the general idea you want to think about is move slowly toward consulting commentaries. So the first thing I would do if something is confusing is I would read it in several different translations and see if that helps clear it up. And then the second thing I would do is I would ask, wait a minute, has this been talked about before in the book that I'm reading? Does it show up afterwards in the book that I'm reading? So look at the immediate context and then ask, wait a minute, does this show up somewhere in the surrounding books? Does it show up in the Old Testament somewhere else? Those kinds of things. And so pay a lot of attention to just what does the Bible have to say to help me interpret this before you go to a commentary? Because that's what a commentator is going to do. And then when you get to a commentary, you'll have a better sense of whether you are making progress in your own ability to let the context that's already there help you sort through what something might mean. And also, always keeping in mind those, those first few diagr. Diagnostic questions that we start with with any book of the Bible, the who, what, when, where and why, that kind of a thing. That's.
- [25:59]
Melissa Krueger
That's good, because what I like about that is I actually like it when I have to have that time where I think. And then if you go to the commentary and they say what you were thinking, you're like, great, I'm not a heretic. Or you're like, oh, my thought was original. Maybe I am a heretic. Like, I need to go back and forth things. So, you know, it's always. It's helpful, it's a helpful check because we do believe in a historical church. You know, we, we do, you know, in a sense, want to learn collectively from the Word and from each other. But that's a, that's a really helpful, helpful way to think through how to do it, to actually know what we're thinking before we go in. Well, here's another easy one for you. I have been trying to answer this question for probably 25 years because that's how old Emma is. So I've been trying to answer in my own head for a long time. How can parents with young children take a Sabbath day tell us
- [27:01]
Jen Wilkin
this is so timely because actually, you know, Jeff and I are here with these small children, and I'm thinking, do we get to go to bed at any point? You forget pretty quickly just how much energy goes into taking care of little children. Um, so anyway, just for those who are going to Hear my response. Just know that I'm actually living the dream with you right now in this very moment as we're doing this interview. So I think that when we think about Sabbath, first of all, in some, some of the same way that I answered the previous question, do you have a heart turned toward Sabbath? In other words, does it just feel like I'm just too busy, or is it. No, I really want to be able to Sabbath as a family. And keeping in mind that Sabbath is not just taking a nap, right. Sabbath is an opportunity to experience the goodness of God together through the cessation of typical daily activities for the purpose of ones that are perhaps more focused on relationship building and tend toward worship. And so I tend to think of it more like, even when I had small children, if I had a houseguest coming to stay, I prepared ahead for that house guest because I wanted to be able to give them my full attention and so much as I had full attention to give with small children when they were actually there. So I thought ahead about how can I make sure that meals are going to take as little effort as possible when the person is here, but they're still going to be delicious and an enjoyable time together? How do I think about activities that we can do with this person that will be enjoyable, that aren't going to require so much effort that we can't actually all enter in, in or if I'm going to be distracted during all that? And so I think thinking about Sabbath is, is a similar practice. We're. We're in, in a sense, inviting the Lord as our table guest on that day. And then that means that we are going to do some work before Sabbath so that we don't work on the Sabbath. And so that's. And that's an Old Testament principle. They collected more manna the day before the seventh day so that they wouldn't have to go out and collect on that day. But, but on top of all of this, what I want young parents to hear me say is just do what you can, set your heart on the right principle, and then over time, watch how it becomes more and more a regular rhythm as your children get older. The Lord, I always say this with quiet time practices, with Bible study practices. The Lord knows your stage of life better than you do, and he knows your heart. So honor him in your heart and as far as you're able, in your practices so that you have a trajectory, even if you don't have an immediate, you know, hey, everyone, I'm going to Instagram this Sabbath.
- [29:44]
Courtney Docter
That was so amazing with Sourdough. For sure. Doctor Vanessa K. Hawkins is in the house. It's not really a party until Vanessa shows up. You know that, right?
- [30:02]
Melissa Krueger
This was the 4.4person sitting on the pillows. We were all on the pillows together. Did y' all remember?
- [30:10]
Courtney Docter
Yes. That ended up. So what Melissa's talking about is when we first started recording the Deep Dish, we all were in Dallas together at an Airbnb, and we. The chairs weren't tall enough, so we put pillows on the chairs. But then it showed up in all the photos, and so it's, like, very obvious. So I just want to reiterate what I have said a thousand times. We professionals.
- [30:33]
Melissa Krueger
We are bringing it.
- [30:35]
Courtney Docter
We. We are top notch. We really know what we're doing here.
- [30:39]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Absolutely.
- [30:40]
Courtney Docter
I'm actually in my slippers right now, but y' all probably didn't need to know that. Okay, well, Jen, I know you gotta
- [30:48]
Jen Wilkin
go be with those babies.
- [30:49]
Courtney Docter
Thanks for hopping on. It wouldn't have been a birthday party if you hadn't. If you hadn't. So thanks for taking the time to do that.
- [30:56]
Jen Wilkin
Thanks, guys. And happy first birthday. I hope you grow into a teenager.
- [31:01]
Courtney Docter
Thanks, Ren.
- [31:03]
Melissa Krueger
Vanessa, we're so glad you're here.
- [31:06]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
It's good to be here. Always good to see you guys. Yes.
- [31:09]
Courtney Docter
What we are doing to celebrate our birthday is we asked listeners to toss some questions out there to us, but instead of us answering them, we're just bringing in all of the experts and friends to answer some of these questions. Well, we would love to toss some of the hard ones your way because. And like Melissa said at the beginning, our listeners do not offer fluffy questions. I mean, these are good and they deep and. Yeah. So I'm going to toss the first one over to you. So this was a question that a listener submitted. How do you allow disappointment to deepen your dependence? And can we just, like, stop and reflect on that beautiful alliteration? How do you allow disappointment to deepen your dependence on God rather than. And here it is again. Harden your heart. So I'm just impressed with the semantics of the question.
- [31:58]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
But this is clearly a reformed person. This is clearly right.
- [32:01]
Courtney Docter
Exactly. But I mean, what a great question, right? Disappointment can just.
- [32:06]
Nancy Guthrie
Is.
- [32:07]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
It was a great question for you guys. And now you've got me on here. Yeah. How. How do you let disappointment deepen your dependence? Yeah, it is a. It's a. It is a great question. Yeah. I think with disappointment, I think over time becoming convinced that in disappointment that the Lord really doesn't. Withhold anything good from me. I think that over time, I've become convinced of that truth and to be able to sit with the disappointment and to know that he's not a God that just arbitrarily allows things in my life or withholds things from my life. But if it's something that I'm longing for and I'm not getting in this moment or something that I was planning to do and, and I'm not getting to do at this moment and it doesn't happen, I have become more apt to now go back to the Lord and say, well, you know, I really thought that that was going to happen, or to, to be able to voice that, but to also receive from him that if you're not allowing it right now in this moment, or if it's not looking the way that I thought it should look, that you're really not withholding good from me, and that the good that you have for me, me is better than what I thought I needed in this moment. And so I think it's. It's a matter of trust over time, as you kind of do in any relationship, right? You build trust over time. And I think it's trusting that the things that I have been disappointed about, you know, over time, I can say in many of those cases that, wow, you really weren't withholding what was good from me. You, you. I can really trust you in that. That.
- [33:48]
Melissa Krueger
So that's so good. That's such, like a. Wow. It's such a maturing process. Right. That doesn't happen.
- [33:57]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
You're right. Yes.
- [33:58]
Melissa Krueger
You know, and I think we get there, the longer we walk with the Lord, we maybe get there sooner, hopefully. Hopefully some days sometimes, yeah.
- [34:08]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
And sometimes it depends on the disappointment, too. Melissa.
- [34:10]
Nancy Guthrie
Right. Yeah.
- [34:11]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Because. And what the, what the disappointment is concerning, there are certain things I get there quicker with, with my children. Sometimes. Maybe not. You know, it just, it, it, it depends. It, it kind of depends, but it is a maturation process. You're right.
- [34:24]
Melissa Krueger
Yeah. I've started speaking that to myself when I'm feeling the why is it going this way?
- [34:30]
Courtney Docter
Or whatever.
- [34:32]
Melissa Krueger
The truth I try to say is it has to be for my good. It's, it's somehow, I mean, it ha. Like, he's going to work this for my good. He has promised he will. But, like, and now is the moment for me to try to believe that, like, he, you know, to let that settle me in it, but still feel the disappointment, feel the sadness, feel the hardness. I don't feel like I have to
- [34:56]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
feel that and take it too.
- [34:58]
Melissa Krueger
Yeah, yeah. And then yet at the same moment be like, but he has promised in every single thing.
- [35:06]
Courtney Docter
And what would it.
- [35:07]
Melissa Krueger
How would it change this moment if I actually believed it in this moment moment? And that sometimes it's. But it's a battle. I mean, like, it's a fight for our minds to, you know, turn and talk to ourselves. Because it's just so much easier to be like, well, there is no way. I cannot see a way. As if I can see everything, which I cannot. So anyway, it's always that. Okay, well, that. Thank you for that first one. Taking. Taking that one on.
- [35:36]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
So they have to get easier now, right? They're going to get easier now.
- [35:40]
Courtney Docter
Super easy.
- [35:40]
Melissa Krueger
Oh, this was super easy. No problem. So how does loving someone well. What does loving someone well look like when you feel misunderstood by them or not seen by them? So how do we love? Well, that's easy, right? I'm sure it just overflows. It's so simple to do. How do we do that? How do we do that?
- [36:02]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Well, you just went from. From. From hard to harder, Melissa. Okay, so when you're feeling misunderstood or unseen, that's the question, right? I think with misunderstanding, as a person who communicates a lot, I long to communicate well. And I think if I think that someone didn't understand what I said or what my intentions were, I think I'm apt to just ask good questions and to keep listening so that I can understand how what I said landed or, you know, and so. And I might even ask, you know, how did what I say land on you? Can you help me to hear it the way that you heard it? And so I think that sometimes that is it. And then longing to hear more than I long to be understood, too. I mean, so if I'm communicating, I'm longing to be under understood, but also I'm longing to understand and I'm wanting to know how my words are landing so that. So if I think that there's a point of misunderstanding, I'm probably just going to be prone to ask good questions until I get some clarity about what it is that I said and maybe a way that I can say it differently so that it can land. I think that that's the thing. And misunderstanding and in not being seen, man, I think that that has probably changed over the years. There's sometimes now I don't want to be seen. So it's sad. That's true. But I think it's asking some heart questions about. Well, one, why does it bother me that I wasn't acknowledged or seen. Is there something in me or is there something systematically happening that maybe am I being. Being not seen or am I being ignored? So, one, I think one implies intent. Right. And the other is it could be how I'm perceiving it. So I think asking myself some of those hard questions about, all right, am I not being seen or what is it in me that's saying, you're not seeing me? And so I think maybe probing my own heart a bit. And then if it's. If I'm being ignored, if I'm. If I'm picking up on kind of maybe some repeat behavior that I'm kind of being ignored, I think that that's different. I think that that's, you know, that's a conversation that's, hey, let's. Let's chat about this. This is making me feel this way and giving people all kinds of grace and saying, hey, I know you didn't, you know, likely mean it this way, but this is how I'm experiencing you and having those kinds of conversations if necessary.
- [38:41]
Courtney Docter
That's so good. Yeah. And just. Just like, we want to say thank you to our listeners for trusting us with these really hard questions. And it's just, we are just rejoicing in, like, God's faithfulness to us through these conversations and just the kindness and encouragement that we've received over the past year in the ways the Lord is using these conversations in your life. And then obviously, our hearts are rejoicing over our friends and partners and miss Ministry that we get to. To do this with. And so, Vanessa, thanks for hopping on, for celebrating with us, for joining us once again, for just offering your wisdom to the listeners. I know that it's always a treat for me and for them, and so we're just really grateful. But so we. We do love to end every episode with a question that's just a little bit lighter.
- [39:37]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Oh, I mean, it has to be almost, right? Right.
- [39:40]
Courtney Docter
Here's my question for you today. And, Vanessa, because I'm the one asking it, and I'm asking you. There is actually a right answer to this.
- [39:47]
Melissa Krueger
Oh, no. I'm sorry, Vanessa. I didn't know she was gonna do this to you. Take me out. Take me out.
- [39:54]
Courtney Docter
You know, I'm on your. Vanessa, come on. I'm sending you. I'm sending you all the brain waves on this one. Okay, here's the question.
- [40:02]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
This is scary.
- [40:03]
Courtney Docter
What is the best. Best party you've ever been to?
- [40:09]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
The best party. I mean, it has to be a Courtney doctor party.
- [40:13]
Courtney Docter
Well, right, Right. Yes.
- [40:15]
Jen Wilkin
Right.
- [40:15]
Courtney Docter
For sure.
- [40:16]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
Yeah. Probably the 50th. Seriously? You got it, girl.
- [40:20]
Courtney Docter
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [40:22]
Melissa Krueger
I was not invited to Courtney's 50th.
- [40:24]
Courtney Docter
You were actually, and, you know, too busy. Just kidding.
- [40:30]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
But no.
- [40:30]
Courtney Docter
Okay, you can answer it. For real. What is actually the best party you've ever been to?
- [40:34]
Vanessa K. Hawkins
You. No, that. That. That's. Sincerely. Would be one of the top, because that was just lovely. It was beautiful. It was restorative. It was connecting. It was like all of my favorite things.
- [40:46]
Courtney Docter
It was so fun. We had a group, a small group of women go together to a lake house, and it was in November, but I made everybody get on the lake anyway because I'm, like, you know, obsessed with the water, and so everybody's all bundled up and. Yeah, it was. It was very fun. But a good party is all those things. Things. It's relational, restorative. I like how you. I like how you said that. So the next one of us that has a big birthday, let's do. Let's do one of those parties for sure.
- [41:12]
Melissa Krueger
But dish party party number two should be at the lake. And we can get some chairs that don't require pillows for us to sit on.
- [41:21]
Courtney Docter
We could sit around and Adirondacks and have. Yeah. Because there's a lot of questions that were submitted that we did not get to, and. And so we could sit around and add a rondex and. Yeah, we are sorry. We love. We love. We're reading them all and we're thinking about them, and we're super impressed with. With you all and your questions, but these are the ones that. That made the cut. So I hope that this episode has served you well, that you have enjoyed it, that you have celebrated with us, that you received this as a gift of gratitude for joining us in this first year. We'll see what year two looks like. We are excited. We've already started thinking about it and talking about it. So thank you. Thank you for being a part of the Deep Dish community. And if you have found this conversation or this podcast helpful, would you please, like, subscribe? Leave a review Leave a comment Share with a friend and we would like to continue and then support TGC because we would like to continue making more content like this. So happy birthday to all of them, and thanks for being a part of the Deep Dish community.
- [42:26]
Melissa Krueger
Hey, friends, it's Melissa Krueger here, and I'm so excited that you're listening to the Deep Dish. Want to stay connected and get even more resources for growing in your faith. We've got a new newsletter for you, and we're so excited about it. When you subscribe, you'll get discussion questions for the Deep Dish episodes, memory Verses, updates on what's happening with women's initiatives, as well as some of our favorite staff picks. And these are really fun. So head over to tgc.org women and sign up today. We can't wait to connect with you again. That's TGC.org women.