Aging Is a Discipleship Issue

Summary

The Deep Dish: Aging Is a Discipleship Issue

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Deep Dish
• Host/Author: The Gospel Coalition
• Episode: Aging Is a Discipleship Issue
• Release Date: March 27, 2025

Hosts:

• Melissa Krueger
• Courtney Docter
• Jen Wilkin (Guest)

---

1. Introduction to the Conversation on Aging

The episode dives into the often-overlooked topic of aging, framing it not just as a natural progression but as a significant discipleship issue within the Christian faith. Hosted by Melissa Krueger and Courtney Docter, with guest Jen Wilkin, the conversation begins with a candid discussion about their own ages, setting the stage for a heartfelt exploration of aging from both cultural and spiritual perspectives.

2. Cultural Perceptions of Aging

The hosts critically examine how contemporary society views aging, particularly the notion that aging equates to obsolescence rather than increasing value.

• Melissa Krueger opens the discussion at [00:45] by stating, "Aging is the equivalent, not of increasing in value, but of moving into obsolescence."

• Jen Wilkin highlights the cultural obsession with youth, noting how societal pressures often make women perceive aging as something undesirable and fought against relentlessly.

The conversation underscores a pervasive cultural narrative that equates youth with worthiness and attractiveness, leading to heightened anxieties around aging.

3. Biblical Perspective on Aging as a Discipleship Issue

Shifting from cultural critique, the hosts delve into the biblical teachings on aging, presenting it as a profound aspect of discipleship.

• Melissa Krueger reflects on how the Bible offers a counter-narrative to the culture's view, emphasizing that aging can be a time of increased wisdom and spiritual depth. At [12:09], she shares, "We think of the elderly like the jam box, that they're obsolete. But the Bible tells us that they should be valued for their wisdom and experience."

• Jen Wilkin complements this by referencing First Peter, stating, "Teach us to number our days, that we may gain a gain of wisdom," emphasizing the scriptural encouragement to value each stage of life.

They argue that embracing aging aligns with living out one's faith, showcasing resilience, wisdom, and a deeper relationship with God.

4. Intergenerational Relationships and Caregiving

A significant portion of the episode focuses on the dynamics of intergenerational relationships and the role of caregiving in the aging process.

• Jen Wilkin shares a poignant moment about caring for her mother-in-law who underwent a double mastectomy, highlighting the emotional and spiritual dimensions of caregiving. At [19:11], she says, "I think that moment was a discipleship issue because in that moment, I now hear a different voice in my head when I start aging. I'm just so glad to be here."

• Melissa Krueger discusses the reciprocal benefits of intergenerational interactions, stating at [22:44], "There's a two-way benefit. There's a benefit to the young by being around those who are older, and there's a benefit to the old by being around those who are younger."

The hosts emphasize that caregiving is not just a duty but an opportunity for mutual growth and discipleship, fostering deeper familial and community bonds.

5. Embracing Aging: Wisdom and Spiritual Growth

The conversation shifts to embracing aging as a period of enhanced wisdom and spiritual maturity.

• Melissa Krueger reflects on the concept of "imperishable beauty" from First Peter, explaining that true beauty and wisdom are cultivated over time through life experiences and faith. At [35:06], she states, "We're all developing towards something more luminous, something that reflects the radiance of what's happening inside of us."

• Jen Wilkin concurs, adding, "How do we cultivate that radiance? It has to be spending time and pushing against the cultural currents to hold on to what truly matters."

They advocate for a shift in focus from external appearances to internal growth, urging listeners to invest in spiritual disciplines that foster lasting beauty and wisdom.

6. Practical Advice for Different Age Groups

Addressing listeners across various stages of life, the hosts offer practical advice on fostering a healthy perspective towards aging.

• Melissa Krueger advises younger women to prioritize service and self-forgetfulness over the pursuit of physical perfection. At [38:14], she mentions, "A life of service leads to self-forgetfulness, which counters the culture's emphasis on decorative use of the female body."

• Jen Wilkin encourages cultivating wisdom early on by engaging deeply with faith and community, ensuring that as listeners age, they carry with them a foundation of spiritual strength and purpose.

The hosts highlight the importance of intentional living and stewardship of one's time and resources, emphasizing that aging gracefully is rooted in prioritizing eternal values over fleeting societal standards.

7. Conclusion: Embracing the Journey of Aging Together

Wrapping up the episode, the hosts reflect on their personal journeys and the shared path of growing older within the faith community.

• Melissa Krueger shares a heartfelt memory of her stepmother's wisdom at age 91, underscoring the blessings that come with age when aligned with faith and purpose. At [47:32], she says, "I just think the world of her. I just wish I could be more like her."

• Jen Wilkin expresses gratitude for the ongoing opportunity to grow older in fellowship with her co-hosts, highlighting the collective strength and support that comes from shared experiences.

They conclude by encouraging listeners to embrace aging as a sacred trust and a profound aspect of their discipleship journey, reinforcing the episode's central theme that aging is not merely a biological process but a significant spiritual milestone.

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Notable Quotes:

• Melissa Krueger [00:45]: "Aging is the equivalent, not of increasing in value, but of moving into obsolescence."

• Jen Wilkin [03:15]: "There's pressure to figure out what am I going to do with my life."

• Melissa Krueger [12:09]: "We think of the elderly like the jam box, that they're obsolete. But the Bible tells us that they should be valued for their wisdom and experience."

• Jen Wilkin [19:11]: "I just think that moment was a discipleship issue because in that moment, I now hear a different voice in my head when I start aging. I'm just so glad to be here."

• Melissa Krueger [22:44]: "There's a two-way benefit. There's a benefit to the young by being around those who are older, and there's a benefit to the old by being around those who are younger."

• Melissa Krueger [35:06]: "We're all developing towards something more luminous, something that reflects the radiance of what's happening inside of us."

• Melissa Krueger [38:14]: "A life of service leads to self-forgetfulness, which counters the culture's emphasis on decorative use of the female body."

• Jen Wilkin [19:11]: "I think that moment was a discipleship issue because in that moment, I now hear a different voice in my head when I start aging. I'm just so glad to be here."

---

Final Thoughts:

"Aging Is a Discipleship Issue" offers a transformative perspective on aging, encouraging women to view their later years through the lens of faith and spiritual growth. By challenging cultural norms and embracing biblical truths, Melissa Krueger, Courtney Docter, and Jen Wilkin provide a compassionate and empowering dialogue that redefines aging as a meaningful and enriching journey within one's spiritual walk.

Transcript

[Courtney Docter]

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[Melissa Krueger]

Aging like it's this disease they don't want to contract. There are shots that can keep you from getting the disease. There are pills that can keep you from getting the disease. Aging is. Is the equivalent, not of increasing in value, but of moving into obsolescence.

[Jen Wilkin]

Welcome to the Deep Dish, a podcast where we like to have deep conversations about deep truths. I am Courtney Docter, and I am here with my dear friend Melissa Krueger. And today's episode is probably the episode that I'm not sure you want to be invited on onto it is on aging. And so as I introduce my guest, I'm not sure how you feel about the fact that you are the guest on this episode.

[Melissa Krueger]

Bear with your dear friend Melissa and your hag friend Jen. Yes.

[Jen Wilkin]

No, because I will. I'm the oldest at the table. But we are joined by our dear friend Jen Wilkin. So we are glad to be talking about this. I do we want to say how old we are? Yeah, Yeah, I do too. Okay. I'm 50. I'm 56, but I'm almost 57, so probably I will be 57 and this is okay.

[Unknown Speaker]

And I am 50. I'm the baby.

[Jen Wilkin]

She is just a generation gap look.

[Unknown Speaker]

Like this baby skin.

[Melissa Krueger]

So baby like. Yes. Adorable. I'm 55. Veering toward 56 rapidly and amazing.

[Unknown Speaker]

You are both grandmothers. I mean, y'all do not look like my picture in my mind of, like my grandmother.

[Melissa Krueger]

Have you seen all of the discussions around, like the Golden Girls tv, TV show and how old they actually were? I seriously, I'm as old as one of them.

[Jen Wilkin]

No.

[Melissa Krueger]

Yeah, no.

[Unknown Speaker]

We should have called the podcast the Golden Girl.

[Jen Wilkin]

The Golden Girl. This episode look like Betty White every day of the week.

[Melissa Krueger]

Seriously. But it is really interesting how, like, the cultural idea of what it means to be a certain age has. Has changed.

[Jen Wilkin]

I know.

[Melissa Krueger]

Dramatically.

[Jen Wilkin]

I know.

[Melissa Krueger]

Yeah.

[Jen Wilkin]

How old do you feel inside 24. Do you really? Yeah, do really? That's a lot younger than I thought you were going to say.

[Melissa Krueger]

No, I've just been stuck in 24 in my head.

[Jen Wilkin]

That's fascinating.

[Melissa Krueger]

What about you?

[Jen Wilkin]

Late 30s? 38?

[Unknown Speaker]

I was gonna say 32.

[Melissa Krueger]

Like a smarter sort of slower 24. That's not, not at all.

[Jen Wilkin]

Nope, nope. But I think there is something to the fact that at it, it's shocking. I was talking to one of my daughter in laws this past week about that, that she's like, I can't believe that I am, you know, whatever age she was. And I was like, I know. I think you feel that at absolutely every age. Well, okay, so as we've gone through this process, what are some of your favorite things about getting to this early to mid-50s?

[Melissa Krueger]

Well, I think it's like that, you know how they'll say, I, I don't think I'm smart but I'm not as dumb as I used to be. Like, I know I don't know everything but than I used to know. And also some of it is like you can assess just exactly what you don't know a lot better than you could when you were younger. And I think just the clarity that comes with, oh, I'm not going to be a neurosurgeon, I'm not going to be a famous baker. The number of potentialities in front of me is getting smaller and smaller and there's such a ground. I think I thought when I was younger and had felt like a lot of potentialities, you know, it's like, well, it'll be all over by the time I'm 55. I mean, what is there to look forward to except death? And I feel just so much clarity and purposefulness around the things that are the path in front of me. And that feels really good.

[Jen Wilkin]

It does, doesn't it?

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, it is a little bit more of a stable season when I think about the twenties. Yeah, everything was changing constantly where you live. If it's all questions. Yeah, there's so many question marks and.

[Jen Wilkin]

So how's it all going to pan out?

[Unknown Speaker]

Yes, yes. So it's settled somewhat. It doesn't mean it's easier, doesn't mean there aren't hard things, but there's kind of a settledness of, okay, this is generally what I'm doing with my life versus in your 20s. I think there's just pressure to figure out what am I going to do with my life. Like I'm watching, I don't know you're. Our kids are all kind of in that age.

[Melissa Krueger]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

And watching them, I'm like, oh, I don't want to do that again.

[Courtney Docter]

Right.

[Melissa Krueger]

Yeah.

[Jen Wilkin]

Right.

[Melissa Krueger]

Yeah. I don't look back at, like, even though I feel like 24 in my head, I'm not like, man, I wish I could be 24 again.

[Unknown Speaker]

No.

[Melissa Krueger]

Although I loved it, I haven't had a season of life that I haven't.

[Jen Wilkin]

I know.

[Melissa Krueger]

Enjoyed. But did you guys have the sense that once you got to a certain age, it was just sort of like this drop off of into.

[Jen Wilkin]

Oh, for sure.

[Melissa Krueger]

Who even cares what happens after that age? Because it can't be anywhere near as exciting as those earlier stages of life.

[Jen Wilkin]

Yeah. And so far I've not found that.

[Unknown Speaker]

To be true at all.

[Melissa Krueger]

No. No.

[Jen Wilkin]

I think at every stage I've said I actually wouldn't go back.

[Melissa Krueger]

Yes.

[Jen Wilkin]

There's, there's a joy in that and there's a. And I've said this in relationship to my marriage that we've, we've worked so hard. It's become so valuable. I remember the first time I heard the Shania Twain song Looks like We Made it. And I was like, I think, I think we did. You know, there's like hard earned thing that whatever it is, it just becomes more valuable. And that doesn't have to be marriage. It can be. You have persevered through all the, the struggles of singleness and come to a place of whatever it is that you're wrestling through and you come to that place of not just acceptance of the things, but value of the things where you see how the Lord has, has used it. When did you. And I'm asking this question because I have such a, a vivid memory of it. I had gone over, I was probably in my early 40s, gone over to younger friends of my house. And as I left, she said to me, thank you so much for coming over. I've been wanting to meet with an older woman.

[Melissa Krueger]

Yeah.

[Jen Wilkin]

And I thought, is she wanting me to introduce her to one? Like, I, I really didn't, didn't know. I had to kind of get in my car and like, look in my mirror. Like, I think she meant me. But when did it first hit you or did you have any of those moments where you're like, oh, my word, I am now the older woman?

[Unknown Speaker]

Well, for me it's more the absence of some things. It used to be when I would go speak at places, they would be like, oh, you're the speaker. Do you have children?

[Melissa Krueger]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

Which was you're really young. And I don't hear those questions anymore. No one looks surprised when I get out. And even at the grocery store. Cause I've always had a young looking face. I mean it. Well, can I say this? If you're buying alcohol, no one's carding me anymore.

[Melissa Krueger]

Right.

[Unknown Speaker]

I mean, like, there, there are things that I feel like I, I kept for a while that no one's asking those questions anymore. And they say ma'am a lot. Yes, ma'am.

[Jen Wilkin]

Yes.

[Unknown Speaker]

Like, who are you talking to?

[Melissa Krueger]

Well, I started talking a lot about church mothers and how we needed church mothers in the church. Because I'm like, doesn't everybody want that? Thinking I want that as a church mother. And. And then people at my church started calling me Mama Jen. And I was like, oh, oh, wow. Oh. But really, in my case, we. We had moved in 2007, we moved from Houston to Dallas. And I went from a church that had an older population to a church that was much younger. And I was 38. And I remember how it was like moving four hours north made me go from too young to have any credibility to so old that I was supposed to be a source and fountainhead of wisdom just because of the context of where we were doing ministry. And so I definitely felt my age more, you know, at the, at the church with the younger people. Because you do realize, oh, they are looking at me and they think I am decrepit.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Melissa Krueger]

Because they're all 21 and 22.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Melissa Krueger]

So I do think a lot of it has to do with, like, who you're in proximity to.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah. And I feel like I, I'm like, no, no, I just, I just got married.

[Melissa Krueger]

Yeah. No, you did not.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah. 27 years. That's older than I am.

[Melissa Krueger]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

We're starting to see it at the seminary now. My husband's at a seminary, and for the first time, the students are my kids. Agents. Yeah. And that kind of freaked me out.

[Jen Wilkin]

Yeah. When we went to seminary in our 40s, my husband looked at me and he was like, some of the professors are younger than us. And it's just that. And the kids in the class. The kids listen to that. The young adults in the class would call me, you know, mom, are you going to make a, like a study guide for us? And it was so. It. Yeah. Kind of all. And it was at a move. It was sort of that change of, oh, wow, I am really stepping in as, as an older woman. And so it was, it was hard at first. And so what do you Think how does our current cultural moment. How does our particular culture really impact our ability? And I don't mean just the three of us. I just mean all women. How does it impact how we age and how either easy or difficult it is?

[Melissa Krueger]

I mean, we. You know, life has a symmetrical sweep to it, and we have a culture that only values one half of it. Maybe not even all of the. All of the one half. And I would say that really, the way that I find that women think of aging is like, it's this disease they don't want to contract. And so there are shots that can keep you from getting the disease, There are pills that can keep you from getting the disease, and there are surgeries that can keep you from. That can preserve you from the disease. And it's such a. An odd way to think about the aging process, but I think it's a response to a very true idea that is embedded in our culture, that aging is the equivalent not of increasing in value, but of moving into obsolescence. And so, like. And nobody wants to be obsolete. And we understand obsolescence in a way that even previous generations didn't, because we probably have our first iPhone in a drawer somewhere or, you know, like, I found Walkman from when I was in high school. And my husband has a jam box up in the attic that his mom. His mom engraved his name on, because just in case anyone was gonna steal it. So just, if you guys want to play a cassette, let me know. And I think about. There's that jam box, and then two floors down is this vase that I received when my mom passed away. That's worth. It's not worth, like, thousands of dollars, but it's worth maybe 150, 200. And if I keep it another 30 or 40 years, it will increase in value. And we don't think of the elderly like that. We think of the elderly like the jambox, that they're obsolete. But that's. That's. That's a new cultural development, like, speaking worldwide. And historically, that's a new way of thinking about the aging process.

[Jen Wilkin]

My husband does ministry in Kenya, and they have called him aged. And it's a compliment. And so I have also started calling him aged because it's fun. But you're right, it is not something that our culture values. And so how does that. How do we. No matter where we are on this, you know, this aging journey, this aging spectrum, how do we end up shaping our own thoughts not about our aging, but about the aging of others? How do we push against that in our own hearts.

[Unknown Speaker]

Well, and even just to answer your other question, I was thinking the other day how much I am being shaped by Instagram. I normally think of it as, oh, the poor young girls who are being shaped by Instagram.

[Jen Wilkin]

Right.

[Unknown Speaker]

You know, how difficult must it be to be 18 or 20 or. I can even remember on Facebook when all the young moms were posting their babies at three months and six months in the onesies, and I was like, I'm so glad I didn't have. That would be real, real pain to get organized. But yet I'm realizing, oh, it really is impacting me.

[Melissa Krueger]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

Like I'm looking to see what, what should a 50 year old look like?

[Melissa Krueger]

Yes.

[Unknown Speaker]

And, and to be honest, we, we live in public spaces, so it can be intimidating. Will I lose value?

[Melissa Krueger]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

Will people still listen? Because they're listening to the 29 year old Instagrammer.

[Jen Wilkin]

Right, right.

[Unknown Speaker]

And will they still value the agent? Yes. And it's, and it's often related to beauty, to be quite honest.

[Jen Wilkin]

Right.

[Unknown Speaker]

Because even those 29 influencer, you know, influencers are often highly attractive. And so there's this. Yeah. I think we have more images put forth for sure, and it's impacting all of us. Whereas I don't really remember my mom talking or thinking about this a lot. I think there was maybe just more of a settled acceptance. I don't know if that's true.

[Jen Wilkin]

How do you, I mean, definitely my grandmother, I would say there was just that settled acceptance and almost, you know, and I almost look at that now with a little bit of envy, you know, that I wish that that was because I know for me it's, it's a constant act of asking the Lord to give me self forgetfulness and humility, just even in my own aging body, that I wouldn't get unduly preoccupied with it.

[Melissa Krueger]

Well, I think historically self forgetfulness has been one of the gifts of the aging process. And now we're in a cycle where Even in your 20s, you're supposed to be thinking about wrinkles before you even have them. So like, even in the only decade where they weren't even supposed to be on your mind, you're being told that they should, should be. And so you get into this cycle where I've sometimes thought of it, it's like elective body dysmorphia, where we've chosen to have a dysmorphia, where, you know, like I just said, I felt like I'm 24. You guys said an age that's younger than you are. And then there's a whole industry that rushes toward that and goes, well, if you feel that way on the inside, why wouldn't you look? Why don't you want your outside to look like the way your inside feels? Well, it's. Because the way I feel on the inside is not true. Yeah, it's not. And what the Bible tells us is you gotta pay attention to the truth of your age, no matter how you feel. And I'll feel it. Like people will often say to me, because I haven't. I'm not covering my gray. I have not really gotten. I've got it, like, right here at my temples. And this is not a. We're not about to yell at you about whether you're dying your hair or not.

[Jen Wilkin]

I am just to be the point.

[Melissa Krueger]

Wait for the point. You are dying your hair. Yeah. And so I'm not like saying dyeing your hair is bad. I have not really had to because my. My gray has come in so slowly. And so people would say to me, oh, you look so young for your age. And I have to really ask myself, what is that feeling I just had when they said that to me? Did I. Was I glad they said that? Because we really think that is the highest compliment you can pay to a woman in our age demographic, is that you don't look your age.

[Unknown Speaker]

Rather than. I'm so blessed to have had that conversation with you because of the wisdom you gave to me that. Yeah. So even. Even what we think would be a compliment.

[Melissa Krueger]

Well. And like younger women, again, it goes back to obsolescence. Right. Like, if you're viewed as growing obsolete because, like, maybe you don't even know how to download the app onto your phone and you need someone to help you, then why would I come to you for advice on how to raise my children or how to fix my marriage? And there's not a sense of the wisdom that is accumulated. So there's the wisdom that comes from God that he just drops on us if we ask him. But then there's also this wisdom of aging that is from seeing the same things repeat again and again and from learning our own hard lessons through our own repeated mistakes or our repeated successes at things. And that is something that I think younger generations are not. They don't want to look to an older generation for that. Because, again, if we can't even handle the tech, how can we handle.

[Jen Wilkin]

What do we actually know?

[Melissa Krueger]

What do we actually know? I mean, the world has changed so much. How do we. And this is to say nothing of even, like, the divides in the way that we view politics or the way that we view religion because of how we've been so bifurcated through social media and all kinds of forces.

[Unknown Speaker]

So as women, older women, I mean, I used to say, well, I'm not in midlife. And Mike was like, how long are you planning to live? You're 50. You're not at midlife yet. You know, know, how long is this going to go on? But what responsibility do you feel in how you age as. As part of discipling the next generation? Like, how is this a discipleship issue? We kind of want to just say a little bit about, like, what I do doesn't impact any. Anyone else, you know, like, how does it impact other people? The choices we make?

[Jen Wilkin]

Right.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Melissa Krueger]

There's no such thing as a decision that only impacts you.

[Jen Wilkin]

No such thing. The decisions for good, the decisions for bad. And honestly, I think there's never been a more. It's never been more needed than now to say, let me at least show you an option of aging without all of taking advantage of all of the opportunities that we have to look as if we're not aging. And so sometimes it's just showing, that way of saying, you know, it's okay, let your gray grow out. I mean, I'm not. So that's convicting, right? But, no, but it's whether it's just the clothes we choose or what we decide to do with hair and face or body, I mean, those things and how much time we're spending on them, I mean, those are all discipleship issues.

[Unknown Speaker]

I remember one of the things my mom said to me. She has had breast cancer. She's had a double mastectomy. I remember we were standing in the dressing room and, yeah, we're getting changed. And there are just changes when you, you know, you don't have to wear certain undergarments and things when you have had a double mastectomy. But she just looked at me and she said, I'm. I'm gonna get teared up. She just looked at me and said, I'm just so glad to be alive.

[Melissa Krueger]

Yes.

[Jen Wilkin]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

And so. And I think about. I had a dear friend, Debbie, who died of breast cancer, and she said, I just wish I could see my kids graduate. She didn't get to. And, you know, when you think about aging is a gift, and we too often think of it as a disease, you know, And I could see it in my mom. Rather than be ashamed of the scars of aging, she Embraced the life she'd been given. You know, and I think that it is, it, it really is a discipleship issue in that moment. I now hear a different voice in my head when I start aging. I'm just so glad to be here.

[Melissa Krueger]

Yes, well, and we're living longer than people used to. You know, even at the turn of the 20th century, average life expectancy was something like 49 years old. And so, and so I think that like death was a more present reality for previous generations. And it happened in front of you. It didn't happen in a hospital. And I think that's another thing that we are missing is the overlap of these different age groups. Like it's not just that the aging or the elderly are obsolete, it's that they should be out of sight, they should be out of view. And so, you know, I'm living now with, I've got my in laws who live a block and a half away. I spend a day, a week with my parents who are an hour and a half away. I'm having a lot of overlap with them in their, in their, their latter years. And it is so instructive and helpful to me in much the same way that I would say that like Jeff and I have been formed by being around younger people a lot because of the church that we were in. And now we live in a college town. And so we are around younger people a lot. And it impacts the way you think about a lot of things. And I think what we've forgotten is there's a two way benefit. There's a benefit to the young by being around those who are older. There's a benefit to the old by being around those who are younger. I saw all summer long the way that my in laws who are 80, interacted with their great grandchildren who were living with us for the summer. And that is shaping across all of those, you know, the four generations that are represented in that, in that moment. But instead what we think is when you're elderly, you are an obligation who requires care by someone else. And I learned so much in the death of my mom by being the one who gave that care. And thinking about when I was an infant, I didn't apologize for needing that kind of care. And I certainly don't want her to apologize for needing it now. But those are the kinds of lessons that we only learn when we choose that proximity. And many of us, not only are we not choosing it, it's almost like it's an apparition we don't want in front of Us.

[Jen Wilkin]

Well, and I've heard you say before, Jen, and it was so helpful, that idea that, you know, we have embraced culturally, the idea that we don't want to be a burden. And there's a lot of pride in that. There's a lot of it. It can be self righteous, it can be prideful, it can be so many things that are not helpful. And so even the idea of being willing to be a burden is an understanding not only of our own limitedness and the fact that we're finite, but also that God is at work as he's teaching others to. I mean, I've cared for my mother in law, you've cared for aging parents. But speak to that because I think that's a really, I think that is for anybody listening who is obviously, you know, aging and pushing into the older years. I think that that's a good word to remind women that there's actually benefit and blessing in being a burden.

[Unknown Speaker]

We are so thankful for our sponsor Crossway. And one of the resources that we get to think about and talk about a little bit today is by Sharon Betters and Susan Hunt. And it's a wonderful resource. Aging with Grace, Flourishing in an anti aging culture. And I mean, I don't know what they're talking about. Do we live in an anti aging culture?

[Jen Wilkin]

I don't know why they wanted us to talk about it.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, I mean, what are the we're, you know, what is this? Why do we need to talk about this? Everybody's totally okay with getting older in our world today, right?

[Jen Wilkin]

Oh my word.

[Unknown Speaker]

I think we know that might not be the case. So tell us a little bit just about what is in this book and maybe why we need it.

[Jen Wilkin]

We desperately need to reclaim a biblical view of aging. And this book will help you think about aging in fresh ways and how the gospel actually informs and impacts our ideas about aging, both ourselves and the aging of others. And I don't think it has ever been more necessary for us to think biblically about a topic like this. So even though I am one that would benefit from reading this book because I am definitely aging, I think no matter what age you are, what age we are, it's something that we need to start orienting our thinking towards a biblical view of this really significant topic.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah. And the reality for us. Right. Whether you're 20 or you're 80, you're aging. And so you can pick up a copy of Aging with Grace wherever books are sold or visit Crossway.org to find your own copy.

[Melissa Krueger]

Absolutely. Well, and this has to do with the theology of a body, which is a bigger question that we should probably talk about. But and I'm forgetting who wrote this book, but I'm going to say the book title and then we can maybe link to it in the show notes. But it was called On Getting out of Bed. And what he talks about, he's actually talking about depression and how hard it is to get out of bed. And he gets into talk about like, the reason that we get out of bed is not for us, it's for everyone else too. And then he gets into this whole discussion about the giving of care and the receiving of care and how anytime we're in a stage of life where we are the giver of care, we know that we are giving it, humbly anticipating the day when we will be the recipient. And it was just such a beautiful, salient thought that when you're young, you perceive that you will never be the one who needs care. And you don't remember, you've forgotten the years in which you've already received it. But when we remember receiving it, then we're better able to anticipate and appreciate the seasons in which we give it. And then in the season in which, if you live a long life, you will be returned essentially to a sick state of infanthood. And from whom will you receive that care? And we've joked, yeah, I do want to be a burden to my children. Not in the sense that, you know, like I want to be a horrible health care giving nightmare to them, but what if, what if we're actually robbing younger generations of something by deciding that we're going to place ourselves out of view in those moments and, and then just to have been the recipient of the gift of having gotten to be a part of that caregiving. I think I want this for all of my kids. It's a, it's a precious and holy trust. But I do think what we get back to is, you know, an elderly body is not useful. It's not able to contribute in the way that a healthy, youthful body can. And that is the, that's the thing we have to come face to face with, right, is we think it's about losing our looks until we have the health crisis. And then all of a sudden it reframes everything and you realize, I don't care if I'm the most hideous wreck in town if I have a body that works. And I remember, you know, years ago when I started teaching on the resurrection, what's the promise of having a Resurrected body. And in. In the estrogen pond that is women's ministry, so often women's conception of receiving their new body was, I'm finally going to have a flawless complexion. I'm finally going to have thinner thighs, which is the luxury. And I use that, you know, ironically, the luxury opinion of someone who has not suffered a true crisis of health. Because our bodies are given to us, because the embodied Christ is seated at the right hand of God the Father. And until such time as he returns, we are the hands and feet of him.

[Unknown Speaker]

And those new bodies, you know, Jesus's resurrected body actually had scars.

[Melissa Krueger]

Absolutely.

[Unknown Speaker]

So we're not promised what they'll be like, but we know they'll be perfected. But. So there'll be a right understanding of what they are.

[Jen Wilkin]

So what a perfect body looks like.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yes.

[Melissa Krueger]

And what it's for.

[Jen Wilkin]

And what it's for.

[Melissa Krueger]

And what it's for. And that's not to say, God bless those among us who are highly decorative in their appearance. Like, way to go. Hi. I thank God. I seriously think that the aging process is easier for people who have never had a season of being remarkably attractive. I. I mean, it. There's just less to let go of. And it's. It's no secret that in a culture that fetishizes youth, we also fetishize attractiveness. And those two go hand in hand. People understand intuitively that to be attractive is to command a form of power, which means that the aging process is, at bare minimum, the relinquishing of a form of power. But I would argue, and I know you guys would say it's also the taking up of another, more lasting and significant form of power, for lack of a better word.

[Jen Wilkin]

Well, Psalm 90:12. Teach us to number our days, that we may gain a gain of wisdom. That you're gaining something.

[Unknown Speaker]

And.

[Jen Wilkin]

And it's something that is so valuable and something that will actually. We will actually have an eternity which. Which these others we. We won't. And so for those listening that are in their youth, they're in their prime, and so define that however I want. Right.

[Melissa Krueger]

Not us.

[Jen Wilkin]

It's not us. But for those. What words would you say to them? What can a woman do in her 20s and 30s and even 40s to gain this heart of wisdom? What can she do now that will help her age in a way that is cherishing the more valuable things?

[Unknown Speaker]

Is this the time I should insert the skincare line? We're sponsored. Yeah.

[Jen Wilkin]

If you just use this cream. Exactly.

[Unknown Speaker]

You will. You will have the Jesus shine Yes.

[Melissa Krueger]

Is there something Daniel diet equivalent for face creams?

[Unknown Speaker]

I think we can make some serious money. But you know, I do think about what. First Peter says it's an imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit. And I actually think of that as a spirit that's constrained by the Holy Spirit to walk in the ways of the Lord. So in some ways that type of, you know, I think of Mary when she's sitting at Jesus feet learning from him. And you know, there's just this I wanna learn from you and do whatever you ask me to do. And then I think of this other image of Mary when she is at Jesus feet breaking this expensive jar of perfume. And she's, you know, I mean, that's an uncomfortable thing to do. She's doing this in a room full of men. And yet this is the story that will be told wherever the gospel's preached. We don't know what she looked like. We don't know anything really. We just know she sat at his feet and then she worshiped at his feet. And to me that's this picture of beauty.

[Melissa Krueger]

Well, and then you think about Christ. You know, there was nothing in his appearance that would draw us to him. And I think I've often thought, like, why? Like it didn't have to be that way, why? And then I will say we've talked about like, when did you realize you were invisible? You know, like that. When did it happen for you where you thought, oh, no one is looking at me and wondering what are my beauty tips? You know? And I thought about how when that turn happens, you have a choice. You can either rail against it or you can recognize the newfound power. And I don't mean to make it all sound like it's power, but the newfound power that it grants you. Because I remember thinking, oh, they're really gonna listen to my words now? Cause they're not gonna look at my face and think, I wonder how she got her eyes to look that way. Or how, you know, no one is thinking, wow, I really wish I looked like her. Which means that my looks will in no way be a distraction to the most important thing. And it also, as you mentioned in passing earlier, it's a double edged sword, right? Because they may decide that you're irrelevant. But I believe that there are ways to model substance that are so compellingly beautiful. And that's our hope is that on that other side of the hump, where from a physical standpoint you have slid into invisibility, that the luminosity of what's happening inside of you begins to be evident. And you know, there's a saying, bodies decline, people develop. Yeah, Your body's going to decline. If you've ever read in the paper, you know how they'll have the. This couple's been married for 70. They had their 70 year anniversary. Neither one of them is smoking hot and it's the most beautiful.

[Jen Wilkin]

When they put the wedding picture next to them, you're like, I. How did that happen?

[Melissa Krueger]

Yes, but no one would say they're not beautiful.

[Unknown Speaker]

I love the word though. Luminosity. That's going to be our skincare line.

[Melissa Krueger]

I think there probably is one already. I bet if we googled it.

[Unknown Speaker]

But that's the goal.

[Melissa Krueger]

Yes.

[Unknown Speaker]

Not like. Because they do. There's this sweet glow, you know, of those older couples. You know, I mean, it's different. It's a different beauty.

[Melissa Krueger]

But have you known, have you known someone? You know, like, I think about my grandmother who lived to 91.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Melissa Krueger]

And she was so beautiful in her. Because she got, she got softer, she got. It was like all of the best things about her. Well, to, you know, they grew, they developed. And I think that's the thing is like we're all developing towards something.

[Jen Wilkin]

That's it. We are all developing towards something. And so not everybody becomes luminous. No, not everybody becomes.

[Melissa Krueger]

Because we've also known the other version of 90s, I would imagine age in.

[Jen Wilkin]

And of itself does not turn into automatically that we're talking about. I do think it's fascinating in First Peter that he uses the phrase imperishable beauty because we are literally talking about perishable beauty. And so what is this thing that he's talking about that is beautiful and imperishable? And I don't think it's a given. It's. I don't think you necessarily get wise as you get older. I don't think you necessarily necessarily become luminous and radiant. And so what are we doing? What. What is a woman in her 20s doing? What is she doing in her 30s, her 40s, her 50s, her 60s? So that when she is, Lord willing, 91, she has that the radiance of Christ that really only comes through a life lived with him. It just doesn't happen.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Jen Wilkin]

Moses face didn't shine until he was in the presence of God. And so how do we cultivate that? I think it has to be that spending time, but also pushing against intentionally the, the strong, the strong currents of the culture to hold on at all costs. And I do think you asked earlier, Melissa, about Discipleship and aging. And I think that that is one of the responsibilities for all of us, anybody listening, is to age in a way that shows how to pursue the better thing. And our resources of time, money, energy, all these are limited. And so what are we spending them on? Are we spending them on the pursuit of the perishable beauty? Because come what may, no matter how hard we rail against it, the beauty will perish, it will fade. And so are we spending our very limited resour sources on the thing?

[Unknown Speaker]

And that, yeah, you're really right about the stewardship. Because when I think about idolatry, you look at your time, you look, you know, at your thought life. I mean, you look at what your treasure is being spent on and what's hard. I mean, I think we all have to, it's just a good place to repent. I have to repent, I mean, because I can realize I've spent a lot of time thinking about this and wondering which way cream should I use or which whatever should I use. I mean like, or which jeans will help hold everything in.

[Melissa Krueger]

They got that band. We all know, we all know about jeans.

[Jen Wilkin]

They literally not your daughter. Right. There's that whole thing that's like this is gonna fit the more mature body.

[Melissa Krueger]

Exactly.

[Jen Wilkin]

Bring it on.

[Unknown Speaker]

And you know, I mean, and, and it's just so tempting to say, okay, well it's okay to spend more money on this or whatever. Yeah, I mean it's just really easy to spend our life on it. And what's happening around us can kind of push us in that direction too. So I think it's a cultural pressure we're swimming in and that makes it harder in some ways to fight against it.

[Melissa Krueger]

I think, you know, any number of spiritual disciplines could be applied to help us to combat the cultural messages about what matters most. But I think you said, you know, what would you tell to a woman in her 20s? I really think there's not much more potent for leading a self forgetful life than a life of service, you know, and what I mean is like, and that's where we come back to a theology of the body, is that everything around us is telling us the primary use of the female body is decorative. But the scriptures are saying, nope, the primary use of the female body is to be useful, to be an embodiment of something. And so, you know, sure, get a pedicure, but like picture those feet going to help who. Yes, you know, get a manicure, but picture those hands in service to someone else. And so it doesn't mean that we all, you can tell, like the three of us have not said, I'm not going to wear makeup. I'm not going to dye my hair. But that's what I find so often in these conversations is people want to go, well, what can I do? And then what, you know, where's the line? Where's the line? And I'm like, where's the line? Mentality around this is really to miss the whole point. Point. Instead, what's your motive? And what characterizes you? What characterizes you? And how are you. How is the majority of your time being spent? Because I pray for my girls all the time. I mean, for my sons as well. But I pray for my daughters that they will be so busy about the work of the Lord that they will forget to look in the mirror. Pray it for myself. So good, you know, And. And the thing is, is we will look in the mirror. You have to look in the mirror to brush your teeth and make sure you got all the.

[Jen Wilkin]

Well, I had to go quinoa.

[Unknown Speaker]

Right.

[Jen Wilkin]

We look in the mirror.

[Melissa Krueger]

But there again, our culture is telling us that you should look in the mirror and not see visible change. And, you know, we know that to look at a phone is having a formational effect on us, but I think we also need to recognize that to actually look in the mirror also has a formational effect on us. And do you want to be formed toward being a person who numbers your days a right, to borrow from the NIV 1984, which is the one I memorized it in, or do you want to be formed toward sort of a thoughtlessness around the passage of time? And those are hard questions that we don't ask just once. We ask them over and over and over again. At a bare minimum, aging requires great courage. Great, great courage. Maybe more courage than anything else. That is, some people will have had to fit those who have not had a ton of adversity. That will be the thing for them. But if you've ever known someone who grew through adversity, then you can know that even as you age, there is growth there. Because again, even as your body declines, you know your personhood is going to. Going to develop. What a. That is a rich assurance. And then to know that on the other side of that, we receive bodies that never decline.

[Jen Wilkin]

I know.

[Melissa Krueger]

What can someone take from us?

[Jen Wilkin]

Well, and yeah, and in all things, right, we're learning to take our hope out of making this life everything that it can possibly be and recognizing that it will never be ever. We have our hope of one day, all of those things. Right. But in this life, like letting, it's a constant letting go of. What were you going to say, Melissa?

[Unknown Speaker]

Well, that just made me think of another thing because when you think, oh, actually do have an eternity.

[Melissa Krueger]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

So numbering our days is living in light of eternity too. So these are the days that we can actually share the gospel with people. We can actually, you know, that's why how beautiful on the mountains in which.

[Melissa Krueger]

We can store up treasure in heaven.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yes. And they'll come a day where that's passed. Yep. So if these days have limited option, I mean, you know that we're going to have all those things, we're going to have those bodies that can do all the things we want to do and hike all the mountains and do all the things. But right now we've been given these bodies and this is great hope to me because even when my body doesn't work in the ways I would like to, even when I'm in that, I hope when I'm in that hospital bed or wherever the Lord may call us because isn't aging in some sense he might call me, I hope I'm praying for the person in the rest home room next to, to me and I hope I'm paying for great great grandchildren. We don't believe we become useless.

[Melissa Krueger]

Yeah, no, no. And Trillia New Bell said this to me one time and it has stuck with me for years. She said, I think that the point of that extreme age of reaching that point is that all other distractions and temptations will be removed and we will finally experience the freedom of just worshiping.

[Jen Wilkin]

And I thought I have this life.

[Melissa Krueger]

I have an impoverished view of what it means to age. And certainly death is the final enemy to be defeated. No one is diminishing that point at all. But death is not an enemy that we deny. You know, we need to know there's something to be gained by rightly reckoning the days we have. And you know how like there are all of these like little snippets out there on the Internet about like you never know when the last time is that you fill in the blank. And they're very poignant. I think they're very poignant. But I've thought, you know, you never know when the last day of your giving care to others ends and then you become the recipient of care. And for many of us it'll be a gradual trade off. But not knowing how long I have to be the one who serves means I really want to maximize those Days, I want to number those days rightly insofar as it's possible. And I think about, you know, he ordained for us good works that we were to do. Well, I'm, I'm gonna do them, I'm gonna do them. And I don't think the good works were making sure that, you know, my hooded eyelids. We were laughing earlier about how one of the ways we knew we were older is when my eyeliner started to live in two places instead of one. Yes, you have good space where we have. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I want to be, I want to think, gosh, if I only have so many days of being the one who gives the care, I want to make sure I've done, done my bit so well.

[Unknown Speaker]

And that's the. When you look at First Corinthians 15, when it's talking about the resurrection and it really happened, Paul's exercising and then he ends with therefore.

[Melissa Krueger]

Yes, this was in our sermon yesterday at church.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah. Be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord. So it's not therefore, hold on to everything here. And it's like, no, you've got an eternity. It's really coming. So you can live freely. Like, we can chase the better things because all the other things will come.

[Jen Wilkin]

They will, they will. Well, I have absolutely loved this entire episode because even though we are the older women, I'm still looking to see what the next, if the Lord leaves me for several more decades, how to continue in this entire process. And so, Jen, you know, we like to end with a question of some kind. And so I thought this one I want to ask you, especially in light of this conversation, what would you say, since you think you're 24 inside, what would you say to your 24 year old self that would help you become the woman that you are today?

[Melissa Krueger]

Well, so my stepmom said this to me years ago and I thought it was such an interesting observation, such an important thing to focus on. She was referencing like her own aging mom and her dad at the time. And she said, you know, we become more so. And it's both an encouragement and a warning. Right? Because especially like when you're in your 20s, you're developing some self awareness of where your sharp edges are, you know, that are being worn off, you're making mistakes and you're learning and all those things. And really anytime we choose holiness over self absorption or whatever the self fill in the blank is, we are becoming more so in the image of Christ. But the point is that you will. You will calcify.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Melissa Krueger]

You know, as you age, you will. It is just, that is a lot of what aging is. We call it becoming set in your ways. And the question is, in what ways will we become set? And when my grandmother, my stepmom's mother, when she was 91 and had just passed away, we were actually gathering all the quilts that she had made us. All the grandkids and kids brought the quilts and laid them on her casket and on the backs of the pews and everything. And so it was a very tender moment and my stepmother got choked up and she said, I, I just think the world of her. I just wish I could be more like her. And I thought, what would it be like to lift in 91 and have, have your own child say that about you? And so, you know, Nanny was someone who became more so. So, yeah, I think that's, that's what I want to think about.

[Jen Wilkin]

Yeah, I love that I get to grow older with you all. I hope that I get to keep, keep growing with you, achieve full hag status together.

[Melissa Krueger]

Right.

[Jen Wilkin]

Right. We'll have our own little old woman's home the rest of. Exactly.

[Melissa Krueger]

Now, remember, we were going to be a burden to our kids, but we'll still get together.

[Jen Wilkin]

Yeah, we'll still our kids together. But find your people that, that you want to grow old with and help each other do it in a way that sets your sights on something more. So hope you have enjoyed this episode of the Deep Dish. If you have, please share it with others. Comment we would love to hear what you're thinking about in the entire aging process, and we hope you join us next time.

[Unknown Speaker]

Hey, friends, it's Melissa Krueger here, and I'm so excited that you're listening to the Deep Dish. Want to stay connected and get even more resources for growing in your faith? We've got a new newsletter for you and we're so excited about it. When you subscribe, you'll get discussion questions for the Deep Dish episodes, memory verses, updates on what's happening with women's initiatives, as well as some of our favorite staff picks. And these are really fun. So head over to tgc.org women and sign up today. We can't wait to connect with you again. That's TGC.org women.