Making Sense of God’s Sovereignty

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Deep Dish – "Making Sense of God’s Sovereignty"

Introduction to the Episode

In the March 20, 2025 episode of The Deep Dish podcast by The Gospel Coalition, hosts Melissa Krueger and Courtney Docter engage in a profound discussion on one of Christianity's most intricate doctrines: the sovereignty of God. Joined by guest Jen Wilkin, the conversation delves deep into understanding God's sovereignty, its implications for believers, and how it intertwines with human responsibility and daily living.

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1. Understanding the Attributes of God

The episode begins with an exploration of God's attributes, distinguishing between the incommunicable and communicable attributes.

• Incommunicable Attributes: These are qualities of God that set Him apart from humanity, such as His omnipotence, omniscience, and absolute sovereignty. Jen Wilkin explains, “[God’s] sovereignty, His reign, His power... we can never be like Him” (02:28).

• Communicable Attributes: These are characteristics shared between God and humans, like love, kindness, patience, and self-control. Jen emphasizes that through the Holy Spirit, believers can cultivate these traits to better reflect God's image (03:21).

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2. Defining God's Sovereignty

Melissa Krueger likens God's sovereignty to that of a king, highlighting His complete authority and rule over all creation. Jen Wilkin further elaborates by referencing Exodus 34, illustrating God's sovereign actions from creation onward.

• Notable Quote: Melissa states, “The sovereignty of God really highlights his kingliness and his authority and his ability to reign and rule over all things” (04:15).

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3. The Tension Between Sovereignty and Responsibility

A central theme of the discussion is the delicate balance between God's sovereignty and human responsibility. While God reigns supreme, humans are still accountable for their actions.

• Jen poses a critical question regarding Pharaoh's hardened heart in Exodus, pushing the hosts to address whether God is the author of sin. Melissa clarifies, “God is not the author of sin. It’s the tension between God's sovereignty and human responsibility” (07:05).

• Jen adds, “God's sovereignty over the actions of humanity does not deny that humans are responsible and agents in what they are doing” (08:03).

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4. The Role of Evangelism

Despite God's control over salvation, evangelism remains a vital practice for believers. The hosts discuss how preaching the gospel aligns with God's mission without implying that He needs human intervention.

• Melissa explains, “We get to actually preach the gospel, proclaim the truth to everyone. It’s a beautiful invitation to align our lives with the mission of this eternal, completely sovereign God” (15:06).

• Jen reinforces this by citing Paul's teachings, emphasizing that evangelism is essential for others to hear the gospel, even though God ultimately initiates salvation (15:33).

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5. Prayer and Sovereignty

The conversation transitions to the significance of prayer in a world governed by God's sovereignty. The hosts grapple with understanding how personal prayers fit into God's grand design.

• Jen shares insights from their professors, stating, “He sovereignly ordained the prayers of the saints to do things right just as much as our good works” (17:25).

• Melissa reflects on her personal prayer life, questioning the purpose of persistence in prayer and finding solace in the belief that God’s sovereignty includes guiding our prayers (16:52).

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6. Dealing with Suffering

A poignant part of the episode addresses how believers can reconcile God's sovereignty with the presence of suffering. The hosts share personal anecdotes and theological reflections to navigate this challenging aspect.

• Jen recounts a childhood experience questioning God’s protection, highlighting the struggle to understand suffering within God's sovereign plan (21:34).

• Melissa comforts listeners by affirming, “Everything is under sovereign care. His sovereignty is paired with His goodness” (25:55).

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7. Recommended Readings

Towards the end, the hosts recommend several books for listeners seeking deeper understanding:

• R.C. Sproul’s Chosen by God
• J.I. Packer’s works on God’s attributes
• Helen Rosevear’s Count It All Joy – An illustrative exploration of God’s sovereignty through personal trials (34:29).

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8. Personal Applications and Daily Living

The hosts discuss practical ways the doctrine of God's sovereignty impacts daily life, encouraging believers to view everyday events as part of God's divine plan.

• Jen shares, “What if we viewed everything in my day as a divine appointment rather than a random happenstance?” (30:42).

• Melissa uses the metaphor of laying her head on a "pillow of God's sovereignty" each night, reinforcing trust in God's overarching control (28:36).

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9. Concluding Reflections

As the episode wraps up, Jen and Melissa emphasize the importance of knowing God intimately to fully grasp His sovereignty. They encourage listeners to trust in God's goodness, even when His sovereign actions are difficult to comprehend.

• Jen highlights, “Everything in Scripture points to two things. He is sovereign and he is good” (24:31).

• Melissa adds, “The sovereignty of God is paired with His goodness. Even in the darkest moments, we hold onto the truth that God is good” (24:42).

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10. Final Thoughts and Encouragement

Melissa and Jen conclude by inviting listeners to share their experiences and reflections on God's sovereignty, fostering a community of believers engaged in deep, meaningful conversations.

• Melissa encourages, “If this episode was helpful to you, we would love for you to like it, to share it, and to leave us a comment” (36:02).

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Notable Quotes:

• Jen Wilkin: “God's sovereignty over the actions of humanity does not deny that humans are responsible and agents in what they are doing.” (08:03)

• Melissa Krueger: “The sovereignty of God really highlights his kingliness and his authority and his ability to reign and rule over all things.” (04:15)

• Jen Wilkin: “If there was no King David, what if all these things don't happen?” (08:56)

• Melissa Krueger: “He’s literally reigning and ruling over all things, all places, all times.” (09:33)

• Jen Wilkin: “How can God promise anything without being over everything?” (08:29)

• Melissa Krueger: “There's no greater joy than to have your life aligned with this mission of God and to participate with him in what he's doing.” (15:23)

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Conclusion

This episode of The Deep Dish offers a comprehensive and heartfelt exploration of God's sovereignty, balancing theological depth with personal narratives. Melissa, Courtney, and Jen guide listeners through understanding complex doctrines, encouraging faith and trust in God's overarching plan, especially amidst life's trials and uncertainties. Whether you're new to the concept or seeking deeper insights, this episode provides valuable perspectives to enrich your spiritual journey.

Transcript

[Courtney Docter]

In a weary and isolated world, the Gospel revives and unites. Join thousands of brothers and sisters in Christ at TGC 25, happening April 22 through 24 in Indianapolis, Indiana, where we'll celebrate the rich blessings of union with Christ by studying Ephesians and what it means to be alive together. If you're hungry to be reconnected to God, to fellow believers, to true humanity, then set aside three days for gospel centered teaching, worship, learning and connection as believers from across the world celebrate the glorious Gospel and leave equipped to reach a fraying world. Register [e-mail] that's tgc25.org he is reigning.

[Melissa Krueger]

And ruling over every particle, every moment. That's hard when the suffering comes.

[Jen Wilkin]

Here's the good news. God's sovereignty is one attribute. We haven't talked about the other one. It is paired with his goodness.

[Courtney Docter]

Foreign.

[Melissa Krueger]

Welcome to the Deep Dish, a podcast where we love talking about deep truths, having deep conversations about deep truths. I am Courtney Docter and I am here with my friend and co host Melissa Krueger. And today we really are diving in about as deep as you can dive. We are going to be talking about the sovereignty of God. And the sovereignty of God is one of his attributes. So we're going to talk about this attribute. We want to talk about why it matters. But can you first just start us off by telling us, explaining to me once again, what is an attribute of God? Help me, help me help you.

[Jen Wilkin]

Well, I think this is so good. You know, so often even in our discussions we're talking about ourselves, right? And what's beautiful about the attributes of God is it points us to who is God. And essentially the Bible is explaining who is God, how does he act in the world, what is his role in this, which is pretty much everything. And so the attributes are often divided into two types, incommunicable, big fancy word and communicable. All that means is incommunicable. Ways God is different from us. Communicable. The ways we can be like Him. And so can you give me some.

[Melissa Krueger]

Examples of each of those?

[Jen Wilkin]

Yes. So like God's sovereignty, which we're going to talk about today, his reign, his power, all of those things. We can't be like that. We try to be like that.

[Melissa Krueger]

Right? We want to be.

[Jen Wilkin]

Yeah, you. Yeah, we want to be. But those type things, all powerful. God is all knowing. You know, even though we think our cell phones can tell us everything, we're actually not all knowing. But those are things that ways God is different than us. And we can never be like him. Ways God has created us to image him because we're rightly made in the image of God or His communicable traits. Like we can be loving, like God is loving. We can be kind, we can be patient, we can be gentle. Self control. Those are all his character that he has somehow imprinted.

[David Gibson]

If.

[Jen Wilkin]

If the fall hadn't happened.

[Melissa Krueger]

Right.

[Jen Wilkin]

That's how we would be.

[Melissa Krueger]

Right. We would bear his image accurately.

[Jen Wilkin]

Accurately. Now, through the work of the Spirit, praise God, he can develop those things in us so we accurately represent Him.

[Melissa Krueger]

So he's never going to make us sovereign is what you're saying, but he will make us.

[Jen Wilkin]

I know you want that.

[Melissa Krueger]

I know. Right. Well, we also. One of our dear friends and guests on the podcast has written two great books about both of the communicable and incommunicable. So Jen Wilkin has written on the incommunicable, none like him, and on the communicable in his image. Like you were saying.

[Jen Wilkin]

Yes, I want to call it like him.

[Melissa Krueger]

I know, exactly like him. Never like Him.

[Jen Wilkin]

Yes, exactly like, be like Him. And those are great books if you want to. If you want to learn more. But. So let's get to sovereignty. Okay, so some people might call this the providence of God, the sovereignty of God. Like these can be used in all these different ways. What are we talking about when we say God is sovereign?

[Melissa Krueger]

Yeah. So think of it like a king. So we even call kings the sovereign. Right. The. The. The one who is sitting on a throne, the one who has complete authority, the one who is to be obeyed, the one who can enact laws. That's what a king does. And so the sovereignty of God really highlights his kingliness and his authority and his ability to reign and rule over all things. And so where in Scripture, because it is so clear from the first page of Scripture, where are we seeing the sovereignty of God? How does he so. And what I mean by that, the reason I'm asking that question in that way is because the Bible does two things. You were saying, it's a story all about Him. And it is. And it's a story where he reveals Himself progressively. And one of the ways he does that, he both tells us who he is. Like Exodus 34, where he says, you know, the Lord, the Lord God, merciful and gracious and slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness. So this is who I am. But mostly what he does in Scripture is he shows us who he is. And so even at the, you know, the first page of scripture and when we're seeing creation, what we need to realize is everything is obeying God. God is introduced to us on the pages of Scripture as the high king of heaven because he speaks and everything obeys his voice. And there is nothing more kingly than that. So as the story progresses, where else do you see his sovereignty, his reign, his rule?

[Jen Wilkin]

Yeah. So, like, when you speak, like, if I speak to my dog, Gus, he doesn't obey me.

[Melissa Krueger]

Right.

[Jen Wilkin]

He doesn't do what I ask. Right. I say, gus, sit. I have no sovereignty over it. Okay. Whereas God speaks and says, let there be light, and there's light. So I can't even get my dog to obey me. But yet God can make whole worlds come to be. Yeah, yeah. I mean, so you're right. This is this, like, tremendous thing that only God can do.

[Melissa Krueger]

That only God can do. And as the story goes on, we see. I mean, it's. He's reigning and ruling over Pharaoh's heart. He's reigning and ruling over the time. So if we think of God's sovereignty as his rule and reign over all things at all times in all places, I mean, is there anything that's not under sovereign care?

[Jen Wilkin]

But let me ask you this, though. Pharaoh was doing wrong things.

[Melissa Krueger]

Yep.

[Jen Wilkin]

And that's really uncomfortable because it says God hardened his heart. So talk to me about that, because. Are you saying. Are you saying is God the author of sin?

[Melissa Krueger]

No, let me just be real clear on that one. I just want that one to come out just in case God is not the author of sin. Yeah. So it's this tension that scholars will call the tension between God's sovereignty and human responsibility. And it is. The tension is there in salvation. The tension is there in our obedience. The tension is there that. I want to talk through some of these things. The tension is there in our prayer life. But one thing that's really comforting to me in that is one of my professors explained to me that there are three great mysteries, and they are the. The fact that Jesus was fully man and fully God. The fact that we serve one God who exists in three persons, so the Trinity, that's land, human responsibility, and divine sovereignty. And I'm like, oh, good, good. So. So are we going to fully explain it? No, we are not. Are we going to talk about how it plays out and hold it in that beautiful tension? Yes, yes, we are.

[Jen Wilkin]

And. And I think this is important. God's sovereignty over the actions of humanity does not deny that humans are responsible and agents in what they are doing. How those both can be true, I do not understand. But what I do understand, how can God promise anything without being over everything?

[Melissa Krueger]

Over everything?

[Jen Wilkin]

Because think about this. In Genesis, we hear the promise of the seed who will come and crush the serpent's head. We hear that promise. Well, what happens if somewhere along the way, you know, there's no Rachel Marry. Having a child somewhere along the way, like something happens at any one step. What if there was no King David? What if. You know, what if all these things don't happen?

[Melissa Krueger]

Yeah. And all through scripture, God calls his shot, doesn't he? Constantly. I'm going to do this. I am going to do this. I'm going to do this. One of my favorite verses is in Isaiah 46, where he says, I am God alone and there is no other. And then he says, I am the one who knows the end from the beginning. None of us can say that because we're not. We're not sovereign. We're not in charge. But God is literally reigning and ruling over again, all things, all places, all times. And so how did you become convinced of God's sovereignty?

[Jen Wilkin]

I had a big fight with my brother. I remember he came home from college because you go off to college and you get really smart, you know? So he came home.

[Melissa Krueger]

He's older, right?

[Jen Wilkin]

Yeah, he's older. Big brother comes home from college and he starts talking to me about God's sovereignty. He's like, God's sovereignty, God's sovereign over everything, even salvation. And I know I came out in my teenage self with something like my God, you know that it's always my God.

[Melissa Krueger]

Right?

[Jen Wilkin]

Right. My God would not act like that. I mean, we had a huge fight about it. And I remember sitting down that evening and I was opening my Bible and I was a little bit convicted of how I was just so assured. He was absolutely wrong when he was talking about this, because I just couldn't. That's how God would work. And I really believed. No, no, I chose God. I chose to become a Christian, you know, so it was all of these things. And I wasn't raised in a tradition that talked about this. You know, I didn't. I had. It had never come across my doorstep before, so to speak. And so I remember what I did that night. I. I said, you know what, God? If this is true about it, teach me from your word. And I remember.

[Melissa Krueger]

Wait, stop, go back, because that isn't the. Say that again. What did you. Because that's a beautiful prayer.

[Jen Wilkin]

Yeah, maybe it, maybe it's what?

[Melissa Krueger]

We should say it again.

[Jen Wilkin]

Yeah, I mean, I really did. I sat there in my frustration with it and said, if it's true, show it to me in your word.

[Melissa Krueger]

I love that because I was really in my. I didn't become a believer until my early 20s and I was sitting in my first new members class at a church. And he is explaining how God is sovereign over salvation. So the exact same topic. And I just kept raising my hand, you know, I know that's hard for you to imagine, but it was like, wait a minute, no. And I finally, I said to him, in this class with other people in the room, I said I was there. Like, I know I chose God. Like it was, I was so right. So I was trying to come at it logically and try to wrap my brain about, around it. But I love that even at an early age you were already just submitting to it and saying, show me. Like, show me right. Because there's a lot about this doctrine, this truth about God that can be hard and that can be this mystery that we, you know, sort of hit up against. I've, you know, I've said before that when I hit these mysteries of God, because I think my inclination, like I love your inclination to pray. I think my inclination is, I'm gonna try and figure this out. And then I've realized that my brain weighs approximately three pounds. It was created to last, Lord willing, about 80 years. And it actually diminishes over those. And I want this 3 pound, 80 year, possibly brain to comprehend the eternal incomprehensible God. And so there's a humility that comes, that has to be there when we hit against these things that are really hard to understand. And so your response of, I am going to bow my knee before this Lord and I'm going to trust because he is sovereign, that he's the one that can show me and that can illuminate and can reveal himself. So I just love that that was your posture and I'm not surprised.

[Jen Wilkin]

Yeah. So nice. It's true.

[Melissa Krueger]

We are nice to each other.

[Jen Wilkin]

I'll give you that money afterwards that I was promising.

[Melissa Krueger]

I get the check.

[Jen Wilkin]

But I do think maybe, and this is something we talk about, it's not trusting in our own understanding. You know, we're gonna have to at some ways submit even our minds to the lordship of Christ. We often think of our obedience like, oh, I'm supposed to do what he says. But this doctrine, I'll say is really uncomfortable, you know, and I really wrestled with things because I remember sitting in my freshman year, I started dating this guy named Mike.

[Melissa Krueger]

That played out well for you.

[Jen Wilkin]

And by the way, he was a senior and I was a freshman. And I can remember sitting with him in a place called Pepper's Pizza and arguing with him about this still. Because even though I, you know, I'm like, okay, I wanna. I could start to see it in scripture. I could start to look at different verses and see it, but I was so wrestling with it. And I was like, well, how does this not mean we're just all robots? You know? And so it's this wrestling. And then the other big question I had was, why on earth do evangelism? Because I was dating him. He fully believed in this doctrine. But one thing he would do every Friday night, he would go and share the gospel on Franklin Street. He was one of those people who'd walk up, hey, you wanna talk about Jesus? And I was like, why do you do that? If only God can open someone. Someone's eyes, why do you do that? So why do we do this?

[Melissa Krueger]

Well, I love. I had a professor that said, because we don't know who God has chosen. And so we get to actually preach the gospel, proclaim the truth to everyone. And that's actually this beautiful invitation into the mission of God. This beautiful invitation to align our lives with the mission of this eternal, completely sovereign God. He does not need us. But he says, once I've saved you, I'm actually then going to send you. And you get to know me and you get to tell other people about me. Does he need us now? No. I mean, I have a friend who was saved. She found a Bible. She was walking. She was. She's Egyptian, and she was walking through the streets of Cairo, found a Bible, opened it, read it, and came to faith. So does he need us? No. His spirit and his Word are sufficient. But what a privilege. What a privilege to tell others about what God has done in our lives, how he has worked, and then to let God use that as part of what he brings, or what. What he uses to kind of woo people to himself. It's a beautiful thing. It's a beautiful thing.

[Jen Wilkin]

He has chosen means by which he will save people. Yes. And it. And this is what Paul says. How will they know if no one preaches to them?

[Melissa Krueger]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jen Wilkin]

And so someone has to go.

[Melissa Krueger]

Exactly.

[Jen Wilkin]

Because that's how we all learned it.

[Melissa Krueger]

Exactly.

[Jen Wilkin]

Someone taught us, well, he doesn't need us. It is the means by which he uses to awaken hearts by His Spirit. So the Spirit is at work always and he's taking the word through people and we get to participate.

[Melissa Krueger]

I know it's. There's no greater joy, right? There's no greater joy than to have your life aligned with this mission of God and to participate with him and what he's doing. Well, okay, so that's a, that's always a big question. What is, what role does evangelism have when you're thinking about the sovereignty of God, the fact that he's sovereign over salvation. But. But it also impacts our prayer life. So we hear that argument too is, I think a lot of times when people first start thinking about the sovereignty of God and first start understanding it, you know, we can kind of become hyper focused on it and we don't hold some of these things, human responsibility in, in appropriate tension. And so what difference does prayer make if God is sovereign over all things? So I think about some of the things I've been praying for for years, and I know that God is reigning and ruling over all things. That thing I'm praying for, that person I'm praying for at all times. So why do I keep going to him in prayer over those things?

[Jen Wilkin]

Yeah, well, and the thing I've had to keep saying in my head is because he's the actually only one who can do anything about it because he is sovereignly reigning. And I don't understand how my prayers work with his divine plan, but I know he calls us to pray. He says to do it. And he actually says it is part. He sovereignly ordained the prayers of the saints to do things right just as much as our good works. So how he says we were created in Christ Jesus to do good works which he prepared in advance.

[Melissa Krueger]

Which he prepared in advance.

[Jen Wilkin]

Yeah. So I mean, so it's this thread.

[Melissa Krueger]

Walking them, it's everywhere.

[Jen Wilkin]

He actually ordained some of those good works are the prayers of the saints as they go before his throne and they actually do something. I'm not sure there's the mystery, this divine interchange, but because he is all powerful, he's the one we cry out to.

[David Gibson]

We are so thankful for our sponsor, Crossway. And today we get to talk about a book from David Gibson. It's called the Lord of Psalm 23, Jesus our Shepherd, companion and host. And this book walks through each verse in Psalm 23, which is a very familiar psalm to most of us, but it really examines its three depictions of the believer's union with Christ as sheep and shepherd, traveler and companion and guest and host. Now I Haven't read this, Courtney, but.

[Jen Wilkin]

You told me that you have, so.

[David Gibson]

Can you tell us a little bit about it?

[Melissa Krueger]

Yeah, I used it extensively as a resource when I was preparing to teach on Jesus as the Good shepherd, because I ended up kind of doing a biblical theology of shepherd. And obviously Psalm 23 is going to be a big part of that. And even his breaking it down in these three sections of Sheep and Shepherd, Traveler and Companion and Guest and Host, he really shows how David, as the psalmist, shows God in these three ways. And so. So David provides this canonical context, meaning he looks at the whole of Scripture for this beautiful imagery that we see in Psalm 23. And he really highlights just the beauty and the love and the faithfulness of our good shepherd who meets us at every junction, along the road, along the journey. And so it is. It was wonderful as a studious aid, something that I was able to use in my study, but it is also just deeply encouraging as it's a reflection on everything God has done for us in Christ.

[David Gibson]

Well, if you need a fresh look at a familiar passage, we just encourage you to pick up a copy of the Lord of Psalm 23 wherever books are sold or visit Crossway.org to find out more.

[Melissa Krueger]

Has he ever, if you ever experienced that, where in his sovereignty, he lays something on your heart to pray for and then he answers it. And I look at that and I just rejoice in the fact that he wanted to show himself. Right. He wanted to say, okay, I'm gonna have you ask for this very specific thing, because I already know I'm going to give it to you. And it's like, oh, what if I had never thought to ask for that? Would I have seen it as God's good provision? But so it's his sovereignty even in leading us in prayer.

[Jen Wilkin]

Yes.

[Melissa Krueger]

And then changing us in the process. Because even as I pray or I learn to pray things that are maybe more aligned with God and His will, stop praying less that I'll just have a have a good day, you know, Lord, please help me have a good day. Help me, you know, make my life comfy and easy. But learning to align my prayers with who he is, like, use this hard thing in my life to conform me more to the image of Christ, you know, work out this person's salvation through the things that you're doing in their life, then I'm changed. And it's part of what he uses then. And just to even go back to what you said in the beginning, to conform us more to his will so using his incommunicable attributes to actually give us more, grow us, change us more with his incommunicable attributes, it reminds us we aren't powerful.

[Jen Wilkin]

If you think, I have to make this happen, you know, God's call to not be anxious. R.C. sproul said this. If there's one single molecule in this universe running around loose, totally free of God's sovereignty, then we have no guarantee that a single promise of God will ever be fulfilled. One iota.

[Melissa Krueger]

One, one atom, one molecule, one piece of dust, one anything in this whole universe. Universe, yeah.

[Jen Wilkin]

One hair on your head that falls on when he. Without him knowing.

[Melissa Krueger]

So let's talk about that. When one hair of our head falls and when suffering comes our way, when these things happen. So we're saying that not one hair falls without him knowing. And that he is reigning and ruling over every particle, every moment. That's hard. When the suffering comes and when the things. When we know he could change it, when we know he could heal, when we know he could save, when we know he could have prevented. So what do we do in that moment when the suffering is brutal.

[Jen Wilkin]

Yeah, I know. And I think this is the biggest point of wrestling for any of us with the sovereignty of God because. Right. We're going to talk about the comfort in just a minute because it, it is a comfort. But I think it also is this realization. This doesn't have to be what happened in our mind. You know, like, and I, I can even remember, this is when I was my six year old, I'd been telling her, God can do anything. He's. Yeah, he can do anything. She falls off of her bike and she looks at me with tears all over her face. Just big skin, knee. Mommy, you said God can do all things. Why didn't he protect me from falling off my bike? And isn't that kind of our question? You know, the six year old hit it on the head, the nail on the head of. Hold on, God. Why didn't you protect me from that loss? Why didn't you protect me from cancer? Why didn't you protect me from the parents I grew up with? Why didn't you protect me from losing that child? Why did you not protect me? And I think these are the issues where we aren't always going to get the answers. So we don't always get the answer to the why. And I think that is the place we have to trust. Because here's the good news. God's sovereignty is one attribute we haven't talked about the other One it is paired with his goodness always. And so if. Here's the thing, sovereigns can be really bad. So, you know, we all know dictators who we would not want to be our king. But everything in Scripture points to two things. He is sovereign and he is good. And that is what we hold to. So when his sovereignty hits at a particularly painful moment in our story, which we all have, we all have, then we hold the other attributes and we say, but I know he's good, and I can't see it, but I know it's true, and I'm going to hold to that even in this darkness. And that is. I think that is walking by faith.

[Melissa Krueger]

I think it is, too. I mean, we're told over and over, you know, don't use Romans 8 with somebody who is going through suffering. But the reality is that when those times hit, please come remind me of Romans 8.

[Jen Wilkin]

Yes.

[Melissa Krueger]

That he works all things together for the good of those who believe. And so that is actually what we anchor our hope. Hope in is that if he's doing this, if he's allowing this, then he is doing something good. It's why Paul says, you know, that it will be that we won't even be able to compare our sufferings with the weight of glory. He's not diminishing our sufferings in any way. Paul knew sufferings, suffering of every kind. But he's saying there actually is something so beautiful and so weighty, talks about the weight of glory and so magnificent that one day the worst of our sufferings will actually pale in comparison to that. And that can be. That can be so hard. But I think when we get to the end of the story and we see what happens in Revelation 21, the first thing God does is wipe the tears away from our eyes. And, you know, we just have to remember that it's. He's not sitting back saying, I'm sovereign and just trust me, it's all going to be okay. He's with us in the midst of it. In the midst of it. And so. Yeah.

[Jen Wilkin]

Well, this reminds me of Acts 2, because not only is he in the midst of it, he entered into the heart.

[Melissa Krueger]

Yeah.

[Jen Wilkin]

And the worst evil was actually the crucifixion of the Son of God.

[Melissa Krueger]

Yeah.

[Jen Wilkin]

The only. The only one who never deserved any suffering, you know? You know, in any point, because the reality that we're living in a fallen world is because of, you know, our forefathers, Adam and Eve. Like, this is not the world God created. This is the world that's part of the fall. And we all suffer because of the fall. Even, even things are our fault. I'm not saying everything's our fault. But like all of death flows from what happened in Eden. So in Acts 2, and this is Acts 2:23, and here's what it says. This Jesus delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God. But then listen to what he says. You crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. Do you see? Divine sovereignty and man's responsibility are right here. And then said God raised him up loosing the pains of death because it was not possible for him to be held by it. And so we have this picture. The worst evil that ever occurred was worked for our good. And so when I can't understand how the evil that's happening in my life, you know, is, could be worked for good because there's some things I know all of us would be like. I have no that, that can never be good. When, when my eyes can't see that, my eyes can look back and say he did this for me. Can I trust that God?

[Melissa Krueger]

Right?

[Jen Wilkin]

Because this is a God who has scarred hands, right? He entered into the story and he put himself at the will of lawless men and was crucified them according to the divine plan. This is, this is, this dance of men are real actors. Those men actually did that. But God was over it. Yeah, for an ultimate good.

[Melissa Krueger]

I love that. Couching it in that knowing what God has already done. I mean that's Romans 8:32, right? Where he says that he who has given us his own son, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things. And so it's, you know, it's that argument from the greater to the lesser. He's already done the greatest thing and he's already suffered the greatest evil and he's already been crucified for our sins. And so how will he not also with us, give us with him, give us all things we. Just recently you and I just heard somebody say that God's sovereignty. What did he say?

[Jen Wilkin]

He said, oh, this was so bad.

[Melissa Krueger]

That we need to each night lay our head on the pillow of God's sovereignty. Lay our head on the pillow of God's sovereignty. And I love that word picture of what that looks like at the end of each day to again remind ourselves God is sovereign and God is good. And so in the midst of it all. But we have to know God, don't we? We have to know God in order to know Those things. Well, so we've hinted at this, but how does this doctrine, this truth, this beautiful, magnificent, and sometimes hard truth, how does it impact you specifically on a daily basis?

[Jen Wilkin]

Honestly? Sometimes it confronts me, even when I'm at, like, a red light, you know, I want to be like, oh, why is the light red? And then it reminds me, okay, not an iota. Not an iota is outside of his will. So it's actually the reason I can rejoice always, pray continually, for this is the will of God in you, in Christ Jesus. So it's God's sovereignty that fuels my joy. Yeah, because the frustrations of my life. When your house floods, when you get ants, when you get fleas, whatever, you know, all the things.

[Melissa Krueger]

Have you had fleas?

[Jen Wilkin]

Well, I was thinking. I just read Corrie 10 Boone. I was reading the Hiding Watchmaker's Daughter. It's a really good new biography about Corrie ten Boone. And so it was a fleas. So I actually don't have fleas in my house.

[Melissa Krueger]

Just wanted to check.

[Jen Wilkin]

But when those things come, and it was interesting, that's the lie. In the story, her sister Betsy looks and says, we're even going to thank God for the fleas because they have to have a purpose. And Corey's like, oh, I love Corey. I resonate with her. Like, who's Betsy? How is she that good? But then the fleas were the very reason that the guards wouldn't come in while they were teaching other people the scriptures. So there was a reason he ordained the fleas.

[Melissa Krueger]

I know.

[Jen Wilkin]

And if. If I live that way, maybe this long line at the grocery store is because God wants me to talk to someone in the line. Maybe my child's sick and I'm at the doctor's office today, which feels real inconvenient to me today because there's someone in the waiting room I'm supposed to talk to. What if we viewed everything in my day as a divine appointment rather than a random happenstance?

[Melissa Krueger]

Ooh, that's good. I like that. You know, but even that red light. I remember one time sitting at a. I was so frustrated that the person in front of me had stopped and that I was now stuck at this red light. And then. Oh, and then it turned green and the car in front of me wasn't going. But their pause as soon a car ran the red light. Yeah. And I. It was kind of one of those moments for me, too, of recognizing. Oh, I mean, and it's. It's not always that God's sovereignty plays Out So that. Oh, look, that was so in my favor. I've shared this story with you before, but we at church one morning were singing the beautiful hymn, Whatever God Ordains is Right. And it's a magnificent hymn, but those are the words. Whatever God Ordains is right. So that truth is really resting in the sovereignty of God and the goodness of God, right? Whatever he ordains, it's good and right. And while we were singing, the pastor received the news that he then had to come deliver to the congregation when we finished singing that song. And the news was. Was horrific. An entire family had been in a car accident, and only one of them survived. And so to have just heard that truth, to have just sung to proclaim that truth, and then to have that moment of. Do you believe what you just sang in, really one of the most horrific things that you can imagine. Those are the moments where we have to so know who our God is and grow in our ability. But I love even how you started this conversation of when you didn't know what the sovereignty of God was and how it impacted you. You asked him to show you. And I think that that is such a great prayer for all of us as we wrestle with this truth that is beautiful and hard all at the same time, depending on the circumstances. Because sometimes God's sovereignty is easy. It's like at my red light, like, look at that. Sovereignty of God kept me from getting met. And other times, it's really, really hard. I know you and I both Talked about Psalm 139 before and how that plays into the sovereignty. But, you know, David claims. I mean, he's like, where can I go that you won't know me, that you won't see. See me that I. That you won't. Like, there's nowhere. And so I think sometimes we feel like that. Sometimes we feel like, I don't want you to know me like that. I don't want you to reign and rule over every. This, you know, every possible thing in my life. But he ends the. The psalm by saying, search me and know me. And he's inviting this deep knowledge and this. The sovereignty of God into his life. And I think it's because David came to know that the love of God is as deep as. As the knowledge of God, as the sovereignty of God, and so holding those two things together always.

[Jen Wilkin]

If people want to read more about the sovereignty of God, are there any books you'd recommend?

[Melissa Krueger]

Oh, I think. I think R.C. sproul's chosen, chosen by God is that the title, we'll put them in the show notes. And then you had a J.I. packer, one that you really love.

[Jen Wilkin]

There's evangelism, the sovereignty of God. There's knowing God. God. We also are reading as a team, all things. What's it called? Count It All Joy.

[Melissa Krueger]

Count It All Joy.

[Jen Wilkin]

Helen Rosevir. And so what's interesting about that, it's not a explanation of God's sovereignty, but illustration. Illustration of it. So she goes through all these different things in her life. Each chapter is almost her looking back and saying, I wish I had counted it all Joy. Because James 1, it actually specifically says, count it all joy when you meet trials of various kinds, because you know that your test, the testing of your faith produces eventually steadfastness. And so it's this knowledge that God is working.

[Melissa Krueger]

Yes.

[Jen Wilkin]

That allows us to count it all joy.

[Melissa Krueger]

Right.

[Jen Wilkin]

And so the, the thing about this doctrine is it's not. It's not intended to fuel heaviness. It's intended to fuel joy. And that. So she reflects on her life in it, and I think it's a really beautiful way to.

[Melissa Krueger]

And she suffered.

[Jen Wilkin]

Oh, yeah.

[Melissa Krueger]

And she suffered. But she looks back and. And recognizes how God was working all things together for the good of those who believe.

[Jen Wilkin]

Yes.

[Melissa Krueger]

In some ways, this whole episode has been kind of some hard truths. Right. Some. Some deep truths about God, which is why we called it. You know, we didn't call this the Deep Dish podcast only because we love Deep dish pizza, which we do. But we called it that because we really did want to have to have these deep conversations about the deep truths of God. And so this was. This was a harder one. This was definitely a deeper one, but.

[Jen Wilkin]

I have no other friends.

[Melissa Krueger]

Exactly. These are the conversations that you and I love to have, talk about God's sovereignty and our suffering. But I do love, you know, we love to wrap up each episode with some type of question. So the question I want to ask you today is you started the whole episode off talking about ask, Praying, asking God to show you his sovereignty. And so just as far as prayer goes, where does Melissa Krueger pray? Where is your favorite place to pray?

[Jen Wilkin]

Yeah, I. Well, one thing I can say, it's even the method of prayer. I started keeping a journal when I was 14. I'm terrified. What's in these journals? I've never opened them back up, but they were prayer journals, writing a prayer to the Lord every day. So actually, it's funny when I think about prayer, I often think about writing, but it's on my back porch, I have this porch that looks out to these trees, and I watch the seasons pass as these trees change, and it's just this place of peace. And it really does feel like a prayer porch for me.

[Melissa Krueger]

It's a beautiful porch.

[Jen Wilkin]

Yeah. Yeah, you've been.

[Melissa Krueger]

I want to come pray on your porch.

[Jen Wilkin]

I have food on your porch. And. And you know what I have memories of? I also have memories of dear friends coming who are suffering greatly. And that's the porch where we sit and we pray together. And, like, I have these memories, literally one friend coming, and we all laid hands on her and we just prayed for her. And it's that porch. It's my praying porch.

[Melissa Krueger]

That's beautiful.

[Jen Wilkin]

What about you?

[Melissa Krueger]

You know, we moved into a new house a couple years ago, and so the way this house is designed, the. The kind of space that I go to is actually up stairs, and there's this big comfy chair that. That I sit in to read. So. So my rhythm is I start my morning. Well, start my morning with a cup of coffee. But then when I go upstairs, I pray first. And so I get on my knees and I kind of lay my head on this comfy chair. We talked about laying our head on the sovereignty of, you know, the pillow of God's sovereignty. And so I'm laying my head on this pillow from my couch, but I don't go to sleep. And so. But I pray there. And then I actually. That I have a book called Piercing Heaven. It's the prayers of the Puritans. And so I. After I pray, I read a prayer. And it has given me new language and ways to pray. It's really beautiful. And then I do my scripture reading. I actually don't journal. I have journaled before, but it's. And I. And I enjoy it when I do, especially journaling my prayers. It slows me down in that.

[Jen Wilkin]

It does.

[Melissa Krueger]

Yeah. But that is. That is where I pray. And, yeah, thanks for having this conversation. It's. It was a good one. It was a hard one. It was a beautiful one. But if this episode was helpful to you, we would love for you to like it, to share it, and to leave us a comment. Wherever you're watching this, just tell us where you pray. Tell us how you have become convinced of God's sovereignty. We would love to hear from you. And join us next time on the Deep Dish.

[David Gibson]

Hey, friends, it's Melissa Krueger here, and I'm so excited that you're listening to the Deep Dish. Want to stay connected and get even more resources for growing in your faith. We've got a new newsletter for you, and we're so excited about it. When you subscribe, you'll get discussion questions for the Deep Dish episodes, memory Verses, updates on what's happening with women's initiatives, as well as some of our favorite staff picks. And these are really fun. So head over to tgc.org women and sign up today. We can't wait to connect with you again. That's TGC.org women.