Married for Good

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Deep Dish – "Married for Good"

Released on April 24, 2025 | Host: The Gospel Coalition

Introduction In the episode titled "Married for Good," hosts Melissa Krueger and Courtney Docter delve into the profound and multifaceted aspects of marriage. Joined by esteemed guests Jen Wilkin and Vanessa Hawkins, the conversation navigates through personal experiences, biblical insights, and practical advice aimed at enriching and sustaining Christian marriages.

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1. Celebrating Longevity in Marriage The episode begins with the hosts introducing their guests, each bringing decades of marital experience to the table.

• Vanessa Hawkins shares, "Married for 28 years, we've been friends since third grade... Love at first sight turned into a deep, enduring love" (02:13).

• Jen Wilkin highlights her long journey, "We're hurdling toward 32 years of marriage, having met in college and married in 1993" (02:49).

These introductions set the stage for a rich discussion on the evolution of marital relationships over time.

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2. Lessons Learned Over Time A key segment focuses on the wisdom gained through years of marriage.

• Vanessa Hawkins reflects on her growth in handling conflicts: "I was really conflict averse... Now I know that conflict can be a very good and healthy thing" (05:09).

• Jen Wilkin emphasizes the concept of "faith becoming sight," understanding her husband's strengths that were once perceived as weaknesses: "In a crisis, he is able to compartmentalize... I now see that as a strength" (05:35).

These insights underscore the importance of evolving perspectives and embracing each other's growth.

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3. Navigating Change and Seasons in Marriage The conversation delves into how marriages withstand and adapt to various life seasons.

• Vanessa Hawkins shares the impact of external challenges: "Loss of parents, seasons of sickness... it requires changes and deep love to navigate" (08:16).

• Jen Wilkin discusses reconnecting during busy parenting years: "We had to find each other again as the seasons of life pulled us apart" (07:32).

The guests articulate that change is not only inevitable but can also be a source of strength and deeper connection when navigated with grace and understanding.

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4. Nurturing and Encouraging the Marriage Maintaining a thriving marriage requires intentional effort, as highlighted by the guests.

• Courtney Docter shares her realization about the importance of fun and quality time: "We didn't do a good job of just taking time to reconnect with one another" (19:03).

• Vanessa Hawkins emphasizes prayer and patience: "We pray together wherever we are, and that helps us stay connected" (16:56).

Practical strategies such as regular date nights, shared hobbies, and open communication are discussed as vital components for nurturing marital bonds.

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5. Challenging Common Marriage Platitudes The hosts and guests critically examine widely accepted marriage advice, offering nuanced perspectives.

• Courtney Docter addresses the saying, "Don't let the sun go down on your anger," revealing her experience: "It led to terrible late-night fights... Now I see it as a general principle to address issues promptly" (24:24).

• Jen Wilkin recounts encountering unrealistic expectations in church teachings: "Married on false pretenses because of weight... and needing to be available for intimacy always" (28:20).

They advocate for a balanced approach that recognizes the complexities of human relationships beyond simplistic advice.

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6. Scriptural Foundations for Marriage Integrating faith into marriage, the discussion highlights relevant biblical principles.

• Courtney Docter cites Romans 12:9-21, emphasizing genuine love and mutual honor: "Let love be genuine... Seek to show hospitality" (39:40).

• Vanessa Hawkins references James 4 on humility in conflicts: "It's my pride that's always mine. I humble myself to foster love" (42:30).

The guests illustrate how grounding marriage in scripture fosters resilience and deeper spiritual connection.

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7. Advice for Women in Challenging Marriages Towards the end, the conversation offers hope and guidance for women facing difficulties in their marriages.

• Jen Wilkin advises seeking community and professional counseling: "Ask him to go with you to counseling. If your church doesn't have resources, ensure you receive trained guidance" (48:07).

• Courtney Docter encourages perseverance through prayer: "Pray for grace to endure today... Marriages can change and grow" (48:43).

The emphasis is on not succumbing to despair but actively seeking support and divine intervention.

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8. Finding Joy in the Mundane The episode concludes on a lighter note, celebrating the simple, everyday moments that strengthen marital bonds.

• Vanessa Hawkins cherishes folding laundry together: "We get to talk and hang out while folding laundry. It's simple but sweet" (50:55).

• Jen Wilkin enjoys shared hobbies like gardening and identifying trees: "We have interests that keep us connected and create shared memories" (51:27).

These anecdotes highlight that joy and connection often lie in the ordinary routines of daily life.

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Conclusion "Married for Good" offers a heartfelt exploration of marriage, blending personal anecdotes with biblical wisdom. The guests underscore the dynamic nature of marital relationships, advocating for continuous growth, intentional nurturing, and unwavering faith. For listeners seeking to deepen their understanding and strengthen their marriages, this episode serves as both a guide and a source of inspiration.

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Notable Quotes:

• "I was really conflict averse... Now I know that conflict can be a very good and healthy thing." — Vanessa Hawkins (05:09)

• "Faith becoming sight... I now see that as a strength." — Jen Wilkin (05:35)

• "We pray together wherever we are, and that helps us stay connected." — Vanessa Hawkins (16:56)

• "Let love be genuine... Seek to show hospitality." — Courtney Docter (39:40)

• "Pray for grace to endure today... Marriages can change and grow." — Courtney Docter (48:43)

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Resources Mentioned:

• Book by Jen Wilkin: Ten Words to Live By, Delighting in and Doing what God Commands – A fresh biblical look at the Ten Commandments.

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Stay Connected For more discussions and resources on faith and marriage, subscribe to The Deep Dish newsletter at tgc.org/women. Join a community dedicated to deep conversations and spiritual growth.

Transcript

[Melissa Krueger]

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[Vanessa Hawkins]

Other and that sanctifying each other is real. The outcome is beautiful. The Lord is at work in it. But it is not just a happily ever after. After I do, there's real work that has to be done.

[Courtney Docter]

Hi, friends. Welcome to this episode of the Deep Dish. I'm Melissa Krueger and I am here with my co host Courtney Docter. And we are here with two of our good friends, Jen Wilkin and Vanessa Hawkins. We're so glad you guys are here.

[Jen Wilkin]

Hey, glad to be here.

[Courtney Docter]

Thanks for joining us. And today we are talking about the subject of marriage. I feel like I should say that marriage and but I'll ask you in just a second how long you've been married. But between all of us, I know we're all 25 plus. So at this time table is over a hundred years of marriage advice.

[Jen Wilkin]

Oh, wow.

[Courtney Docter]

There's a lot here.

[Vanessa Hawkins]

I hadn't really thought about it like yet.

[Unknown]

Melissa.

[Vanessa Hawkins]

Yeah.

[Courtney Docter]

So, Vanessa, let's, let's just go around the table. How long you've been married? Tell. Yeah. How long have you even been together, y'all?

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Hawkins]

Oh, wow. Together. That's a whole different situation. But married, definitely 28 years of marriage. We've been, well, we've been friends since third grade. We met on the playground. Oh, I know it sounds so idyllic. But he was a third grade boy. It wasn't as idyllic as well, you chased him. I did chase him because he called me names.

[Courtney Docter]

Love at first sight.

[Unknown]

Love at first.

[Vanessa Hawkins]

Love at first great love. There you go. There you go. So, yes, for, For. For a very. For a very long time. We've been friends for a very long time. And that is, of course, ebbed and flowed as we have matured. But. Yeah.

[Jen Wilkin]

Yeah.

[Courtney Docter]

What about y'all?

[Jen Wilkin]

We are hurdling toward 32.

[Courtney Docter]

We.

[Jen Wilkin]

Yeah, our 31st anniversary was last June. Met in college. We were. We met in 1991. Started dating in 1992. We got married in 1993.

[Courtney Docter]

Okay.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Courtney Docter]

What about you?

[Unknown]

Well, almost 35 years. But I've known him. I guess we start. I was 18 when I met him and we dated for four years before we got married. So I guess we're going on knowing each other. I do my math, Melissa. 38, 39 years of knowing. It's just. It's crazy to think about that and how much longer I've known him than I didn't. Yeah. You know, that's what's just. It's kind of.

[Courtney Docter]

That was a weird moment when we got to that point.

[Unknown]

Yes, exactly.

[Courtney Docter]

Oh, I've known you and been with you longer.

[Unknown]

I remember when we crossed into four digits of number of days we'd been dating. So like at three and a half years, it was over a thousand days. And I remember that. And I was like, a thousand days I've known him.

[Courtney Docter]

Did you write a song or like a movie title?

[Unknown]

Nobody wants me sing that song. Okay, that's fair.

[Courtney Docter]

And we met. We. It's funny. We met in 92, but we've been married 27 years and yeah, I guess we, we. We had a long stretch of figuring out if, if this was going to work. So there was five years before that. So I guess that's 32 years of knowing. Yeah.

[Vanessa Hawkins]

Wow. Yeah.

[Unknown]

Well, how can it be when we're only 39?

[Jen Wilkin]

I know, it's hard to believe. That's amazing. Yeah.

[Courtney Docter]

So let me start with this. What do you know now about marriage or just. Yeah, what do you know now that you didn't know when you first got married how to cook?

[Unknown]

Tell them that you recipe. I could make pancakes and split pea soup. That's what I came into the marriage like.

[Vanessa Hawkins]

Girl, you have up your game. Your game's strong now. Yeah, your game's strong now. That's hilarious. Yeah. Wow. I think just. I'm so much better at conflict resolution. Yeah. I was really conflict averse and I know nobody who knows me now believes that yeah, but I was. I was really conflict averse, and it was just fearful control. I wanted to make sure I had my argument down before I would enter a conversation. And I was worried about saying the wrong things and wrecking my marriage. And so I think it was. I was really fearful, and I avoided conflict at all cost in very unhealthy ways. And so now I know that conflict, you know, is not necessarily bad. It can be a very good and healthy thing, and it's a normal thing.

[Courtney Docter]

So I may have learned how to be more conflict avoidant because I probably came in with like, we got to work on all of this right now because I got to get you righted. So I'm like, I gotta fix you.

[Unknown]

I gotta fix you now. Not waiting around.

[Courtney Docter]

I'm not living with that for 30 years.

[Vanessa Hawkins]

I admire your courage. I admire your courage.

[Courtney Docter]

No, it wasn't courage. Total selfishness and lack of understanding.

[Jen Wilkin]

I don't know. I think a lot of what I know now is, like, what I would describe as faith becoming sight. Like I knew there were things I thought would be true about Jeff that now I know are true about Jeff, like, so deeply and. But I think that one of the things that I understand about him, like, something that I would have thought was a weakness that now I see as a strength, is that in a crisis, he is able to compartmentalize. Like, he just. I'm like, why are you not responding emotionally? And I'm not a super emotional responder to things, but he just is like, all business when the wheels are coming off. And I used to think you're, you know, you're repressing something. And now I'm like, no, we need you to do that in those moments. Because he will process his emotions, but he doesn't do it in. In the moment of crisis. And so I have learned that that is a strength.

[Unknown]

I love that over time, that thought of faith becoming sight, like what you hope, what you see actually is. And that's part of longevity in marriage, right? We get to sort of see that they really are.

[Jen Wilkin]

Well, I have kind of a running joke that we get married on very little information, you know? I mean, you just do.

[Unknown]

I know.

[Jen Wilkin]

And it really is a leap of faith in so many ways. And then. But I do think that how you respond when you begin to learn more about that person is a big test of character. Because your initial thought is, well, everything that's not like me is. Or at least for me, everything that's not like me is something to be suspicious of or to criticize or fix or fix instead of, wait a minute. Maybe the reason we're doing this together is because you're really good at this and I'm not, and vice versa.

[Courtney Docter]

Well, not only do we have differences between us, I think we could probably. Most of us could probably say we feel like we've been married maybe to six or seven different husbands because. And we've been different wives along the way.

[Vanessa Hawkins]

My husband's had a lot of different wives, maybe this week.

[Unknown]

But they all looked like you this week.

[Vanessa Hawkins]

And they all look like you.

[Unknown]

Just like you.

[Vanessa Hawkins]

Yeah.

[Courtney Docter]

And so speak to that. How has your marriage gone through ebbs and flows? Because here's the thing. We're not static. They're not who we married. We're not who they married. And how have you watched that ebb and flow in your marriage? And how can that be hopeful and encouraging, you know, at some points? But how have you seen the ebb and flow?

[Vanessa Hawkins]

Yeah, I think probably some of the sweetness of those changes is actually having him see things in me that I didn't see in myself and call those things out and then. And then, you know, nurture them to grow. You know, I think about, like, for instance, even moving to Georgia was because I had finished seminary and there was this job opportunity that was going to inconvenience the entire family and him more than anybody else. And I didn't even consider applying for it. And he's saying, you've got to apply for that because that's all your primary gifts. You've got to do that. And I never even considered inconveniencing him. And he thought, you've got to go do that. You've got to at least try for that. And so I think some of the beauty has just been what's been called out in those seasons, the difference. What's been encouraged, what's been nurtured for me.

[Unknown]

Yeah. And I think culturally, we hear that idea that people change and that becomes a reason to part ways. Right. That becomes like, that's no longer the person I married, and I've changed, and I'm a different person. So this wasn't what we signed up for. But the reality is the way the Lord used to uses that. I mean, when you, you know, I had somebody describe a pastor, describe marriage as a crucible where you put two very rough stones in and you screw the lid on tight and that lid never comes off. And then you're jostled around. And, I mean, you are. You are striking, you know, flames like it is but the rough edges are worn off. And so part of it is even as you see them change and as you change, trusting in the goodness and sovereignty of God in all of those things. So that. Right. You see that God is working this thing out. And. And the way he's changing might be hard, but it's good. Or the way I'm changing, the way I'm seeing it differently. I trust that it's good for him and for me. And so it's. That idea of the fact that we're different people is beautiful. And it's not a reason to, you know, say, well, this isn't what I signed up for. It actually is what we signed up for.

[Vanessa Hawkins]

Kind of like what Jen was saying, that different basically isn't bad. It's just. And celebrating those differences, I have to.

[Jen Wilkin]

Show my cards just a little bit. Jeff and I always say, don't come to us for marriage advice. I wasn't even sure why you were gonna put me on this one, because we just have had very little conflict. We just, like. I can't even count on one hand the number of times that I can think of having a big fight. And I think it's. We're very similar, and we had a friendship for a year before we dated. And so for us, I would say, like, we. I. I don't see, like a. Oh, I've had, you know, several different versions of Jeff I've been married to. But what I do see is seasons where we were extremely busy, like, with parenting, or we were, you know, where we weren't spending as much time together and having to reconnect when the season let up. And, like, being like, oh, how do we. I remember we took a trip seven years ago where I was speaking, and we went to Ireland, and. And it was like, do we have to talk to each other the whole time? Like, we weren't even sure how to have a time just the two of us alone together. Cause we'd had kids and whatever for so many years. And so I don't feel a lot of the, like, change in, like, in, like, you're a different person than I remember marrying. In a lot of ways, like, he's exactly who I married. But we have definitely had to find each other again as the seasons of life have. Have pulled us either apart or just, you know, had us so busy that we weren't spending as much overlap in our time.

[Courtney Docter]

Well, let's talk about that. And, you know, in any marriage, you do have to nurture it, encourage it. I mean, even I Mean, I know you would say, yeah, we've had a pretty easy marriage. I mean, I think that's how you.

[Jen Wilkin]

Would say we've had a very easy marriage. But I've told you guys, like, I feel like that was a shock absorber for some of the difficulties I was going to have in ministry.

[Courtney Docter]

Seriously, the Lord gave me conflict elsewhere.

[Jen Wilkin]

My difficult marriage has been to the local church. And. And I, you know, and that doesn't mean that everybody in my local church was a villain at all. It just means that being a woman in ministry is its own set of challenges. Yes.

[Vanessa Hawkins]

Yes.

[Courtney Docter]

And so how do we nurture? You know, and. And I think that happens even in good, healthy marriages. There's. Sometimes there are things you're doing right naturally.

[Jen Wilkin]

Yes. That's how I would describe what we had, is we. Naturally, we had overlap in our interests.

[Courtney Docter]

Yes.

[Jen Wilkin]

And then. Well, and I think some of it, too, is like, his best friend growing up was his sister, you know, and I had four brothers. And so a lot of the challenges that people meet when it's just like, who are. You know, you've never had to live with a guy before, maybe, you know, like, I was like, I only have to live with one guy. This is amazing. You know, and so I think that was another big thing that gave it, like, I don't wear. That's the other thing is we can't take credit. It's not like, oh, we're so amazing at marriage that it just went well. It is the Lord's gift. And a lot of it is like, personality and home of origin and all of that.

[Courtney Docter]

And some people, it's. Even with kids and all. Yeah. Sometimes you just have circumstances that are easier, and the Lord does that for other reasons. So that. And you've talked about this so well, and sometimes that comes with a lot of responsibility.

[Jen Wilkin]

It does. I think we had a lot of. We've talked and the kids will even say this. It's like, we've had so much relational wholeness in our family that it's a gift, but it's also an obligation. An obligation in the most positive sense of the world word. It means that we have additional relational capacity to extend. And. And so we've. We've tried to live that. And it's. It's almost people, you know, people would say, well, why? It feels like almost like you're introducing difficulty into a family that doesn't have it. And it's like, well, yeah, we feel like we have a gift. We have it. Yeah. But I also say that we don't look at marriages that have had conflict and think, what's the matter with them? Like, everybody has relational conflict. It's just not in our marriage that.

[Courtney Docter]

We have it right. So what have you all done to nurture, encourage your marriage along the way? Yeah. Strengthen it. We all need. It does take effort or it goes. It can atrophy.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Hawkins]

Yeah, absolutely. I think those times for us have been most tested by external factors. It's been loss of parents and seasons of, you know, parents being sick or, you know, or even birth of children. Those things naturally test, you know, how you are accustomed to giving each other attention. And it just requires just some changes. And so. But I would say that, like, one of those changes has been my husband having to learn how to care for a grieving Vanessa. Like, when I've lost my dad or lost my mom or my learning how he responds in extreme loss. Those things are challenging, and they're challenging for a while, because grief, it just takes a while. It just takes a while to work through. And it helps to deeply love each other because you have such patience and such kindness. It helps to be committed to praying for each other, because when a person's grieving, they just need a level of tenderness. And there's just. They're not themselves. They're not the person you married, necessarily.

[Courtney Docter]

But that. What you're saying right there. I think when they're not themselves, I mean, I think my. In my flesh, I go to. Well, let me remind you of who you should be. But what I love what you said is you pray for them. Like, that's such a way to nourish your marriage. Like, I think sometimes we think we're the Holy Spirit for them, and sometimes I think people do this with their children, but I think you can't even do it with your spouse if you're that way. That reflects poorly on me. So I need to make sure to change you, you know, But. But I just love what you said.

[Vanessa Hawkins]

Yeah.

[Courtney Docter]

You prayed for him.

[Vanessa Hawkins]

It helps if you have a practice of that, too.

[Courtney Docter]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Hawkins]

And that is one of the things we regularly do is we. We pray together. And like, right now, I'm traveling. He travels a lot at night before bed. We connect wherever we are, and we pray together. And that's.

[Jen Wilkin]

I don't know that.

[Courtney Docter]

Okay.

[Unknown]

That makes me feel better.

[Vanessa Hawkins]

That is the kindness of the lo. Always been that way. But it's one of those way. I mean, it's. It's one of those ways we manage the travel. We. And we stay connected you know, we're. We're praying for each other, you know, wherever we are in the world.

[Unknown]

So I love that. Well, I just feel just for the person listening who doesn't have that kind of natural compatibility or the. It's more the external circumstances, you know, we have shared. We were not believers, my husband and I, when we got married. And it was rough. I mean, it was. And all the. All the personality tests will say this.

[Vanessa Hawkins]

Is the worst possible combination.

[Unknown]

We laugh all the time about it. It's like, oh, my word. And so we have had to intentionally work really hard. We've had to. You know, we've done counseling. We've. Which I highly recommend. We have been so intentional because as our love of God has grown, there have been times we've looked at each other and said, we love God so, so much, and we love His Word. Why is this so hard? Because we think as spiritual maturity happens or as we love. Yeah. And so we've really had to. But I'll tell you, the beauty of it is we also can now look at each other and say, this thing that we have worked so hard at is so precious to us. It is valuable because of what we've poured into it. And so I like that we have different experiences around the table because there is. Because I think people listening, they come from very different experiences. Know. I don't actually know that many people. I have one dear friend who would. I could say I think her marriage is really easy. I think most people are kind of in the middle where it's like, yeah, it kind of takes a little bit of work. And I'm like, I'm actually on the side where it takes a lot of work. And.

[Jen Wilkin]

And that we should have had you sit there and then.

[Unknown]

Exactly. Kind of go in a spectrum. But I think that that's part of the beauty of it is, is as the Lord is at work in each one of us, and in our marriage, he does good things. I mean, that's. You know, there was a subtitle of a book years ago, what if marriage is meant to make you holy rather than happy? And that was. I was like, oh, that kind of shed some light on how I was going to lean into this thing. And, yeah, my husband and I also laugh. We're like, you have been the single greatest tool of sanctification in my life.

[Vanessa Hawkins]

That's true.

[Unknown]

He tells me that with all love and endear.

[Courtney Docter]

Yeah, Courtney, I think that's a really good point. And one practice I had to come to realize that I was Doing wrong. That was not nurturing. Our marriage was how we would use date nights. So we are not very good at quality time in general. We were both in ministry, and it felt very spiritual and holy to spend all of your life pouring out on others. So I would say we didn't do a good job of just taking time to reconnect with one another. And then when we would. I thought it was a great use of date nights to talk about all of our issues. I am a fun person.

[Jen Wilkin]

You're fun.

[Unknown]

So fun.

[Courtney Docter]

In fact, I can remember being at this restaurant, and it had, like, a little cur. Like, you were in a little booth, and every time the waitress came, I was, like, crying, you know, because we have the uni. You know, like, we. I'm just, like, discussing all of the things that. This was my moment. And we're paying.

[Jen Wilkin]

Consider.

[Vanessa Hawkins]

Yeah.

[Courtney Docter]

So I got to do this.

[Jen Wilkin]

And you had a list.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Courtney Docter]

Mike's.

[Jen Wilkin]

Poor thing.

[Courtney Docter]

He thought we were gonna have a date night.

[Jen Wilkin]

He probably had a list, too. Exactly.

[Courtney Docter]

Always nice.

[Unknown]

I don't think they bring lists.

[Jen Wilkin]

Just one thing.

[Courtney Docter]

Honestly, just like I thought we were. Okay.

[Vanessa Hawkins]

Got the proof right here.

[Courtney Docter]

Oh, come on.

[Jen Wilkin]

Yeah, we have a history.

[Courtney Docter]

But it was. It was. An older woman once said to me, you should really use your date nights to have fun and reconnect. And it was this, like, oh, it can just be. And I realized, especially in the years of young children, we had kind of forgotten how to have fun together. Everything about became about, hey, are you giving them a bath, or am I giving them a bath? Everything became about work, working together. And then the fact that ministry was so big a part that was even working together. And so it was this huge thing, and we actually had this season where someone was living with us at one point for a little while, a young. A woman. And so she would babysit once a week for us. That was kind of her. You know, that was her contribution to us, and it changed our marriage. And I think I was living.

[Unknown]

It was this really.

[Courtney Docter]

This pride thing of, we don't need a date night every week. That's so silly. And we didn't continue the practice after she left, but we both looked at each other, and we realized that made a big difference.

[Unknown]

Well, it's whatever it takes to remember that you actually like each other. And it's built. It's honestly building that. That shared memory space that's huge to just do things together, because it. It just adds to that. That bonding of shared memories.

[Courtney Docter]

And I will say this. Financially, we were in Some tight spaces. So it was hard to do that. But what I have realized, and I'm totally for counseling, investing in your marriage through date nights could be cheaper than cash.

[Unknown]

Yes, exactly. Exactly.

[Jen Wilkin]

And so.

[Courtney Docter]

So just to the. I know everybody's not in the same financial place, but I would say choosing to put some money aside for that or be creative about that is really worth it for your marriage. And I know that's hard to do. Like, there are certain seasons where you feel tight at every place, and that can be really, really difficult to do.

[Vanessa Hawkins]

For a while, we were doing date nights with young kids. And I remember we had these three questions we would ask every date night. What are your. What are your thoughts? So it's like, what's top of mind? What are your wishes? And then what are you willing to do about it? And so it kept us dreaming together and knowing what was in each other's hearts because we had such a limited window to do that. But we couldn't talk about kids, we couldn't talk about chores, we couldn't talk about anything. And we got it from some marriage counseling type situation. But it really did improve the quality of our date nights. So, I mean, you know, because it is the, the, you know, every conversation goes back to, you know, okay, so Kayla has this, you know, Thursday, and it's just where you default in those child rearing years. And so having a script of sorts kind of helped us talk about each other for a little while until we just kind of defaulted more towards that.

[Jen Wilkin]

We've never had a practice of date night, but it doesn't mean that we haven't had a sense of needing to have shared time.

[Vanessa Hawkins]

I love that.

[Jen Wilkin]

And one of the biggest things about putting the kids to bed was that we got that time almost every night, you know, to just catch up with each other. And then we have so many shared interests. We both like to garden. And so it's like, hey, this weekend, let's get the yard pulled together. Well, that means the two of us are out there doing that together. And funny, because all of our hobbies have to do with things that you don't have to leave your house to do because we had so many little kiddos for so long.

[Unknown]

Are there common marriage platitudes? You know, common marriage advice that you hear that you disagree with, that either hasn't played out the way you thought it would, or you just know that it's not great advice when you hear it. I have one, but I want to hear what you guys think.

[Courtney Docter]

Well, the one I really took to heart because I thought it was really good advice and it even is scriptural. So it's maybe a risk to say I don't agree with it, but it's don't let the sun go down on your anger. And so.

[Jen Wilkin]

Oh, that's so good, Melissa.

[Courtney Docter]

What this caused for me was a very truly legalistic. If we let the sun go down on our anger, we're headed for divorce.

[Unknown]

What do they start arguing after the sun's already gone down?

[Courtney Docter]

Exactly. I should have, I should have put that in. We get at least the sunrise.

[Jen Wilkin]

What do you argue from sundown to sun up? Then what?

[Unknown]

Then what? Because I mean, hypothetically.

[Vanessa Hawkins]

Hypothetically asking for a friend.

[Courtney Docter]

Asking for a friend and it led to terrible late night fights and we're up and then if he's dared like lay down and his eyes look like they might be shutting on the pillow at 1am you're not really in this marriage. Right, Is what I found.

[Unknown]

And the problem seems so much bigger at 11pm than they do at 8 in the morning.

[Courtney Docter]

You're like, I'm really sorry about that. That was stupid. You know, I mean. And so I just am a big believer actually and don't let things simmer for weeks and all, but you know, like maybe wait until the morning to discuss it.

[Unknown]

So it's not a literal interpretation of that verse is what you're saying? It's kind of a general principle.

[Courtney Docter]

Principle, yes, exactly.

[Unknown]

That I don't let things fast.

[Jen Wilkin]

Yeah.

[Courtney Docter]

That I was definitely taking to be. I was taking it way literally.

[Unknown]

I am so grateful for our sponsor Crossway. They publish such great books and one of the books we want to highlight today has been written by one of our dear friends, Jen Wilkin. It is ten Words to Live By, Delighting in and Doing what God Commands, where Jen presents a fresh biblical look at the Ten Commandments, showing how they come to bear on our lives today.

I know. I'm so excited about this book. I think too often, you know, we kind of view the law as this heavy burden that we can never fulfill and it weighs us down. And what I love that Jen does in this book is she really shows us that the God's law is a grace to us.

[Courtney Docter]

It's a good thing for us and.

[Unknown]

It actually it's given to us by.

[Courtney Docter]

The Creator who knows how we work best.

[Unknown]

And so I mean this book is actually really refreshing for your heart. So it's just a wonderful book. We both love Jen. We love all of her words. She shares them so well. And she points us to God's word in such a wonderful way.

[Jen Wilkin]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

So pick up your copy of 10 Words to Live by wherever books are sold or visit Crossway.org Vanessa, what about you?

[Vanessa Hawkins]

I think the whole, you know, Disney world of, you know, marriages and brides and princesses and they all lived happily ever after has done a such a great disservice because I think after people are married and things, they start having, you know, conflict, as they should, because you've got two simple people learning how to live together, you know, and, you know, in holy matrimony. And it's just that live happily ever after is hard fought in many cases. In many cases. And so for people to go in with that expectation and to think that they're not going to have conflict or if they have conflict, then, man, I've married the wrong person. I thought this was my soulmate, but clearly it's not because we don't agree. And so I just think it's a bill of goods. When scripture is, in this life you will have tribulation, and in marriage you will have tribulation. And that sharpening each other and that sanctifying each other is real. The outcome is beautiful. The Lord is at work in it. But it is not just a happily ever after. I do. There's real work that happens to be done.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Jen, do you have another one besides.

[Jen Wilkin]

I can think of two others. I remember when I was eight months pregnant going to a marriage thing at a church in. It was not my church. It was in the area in Houston. And the woman who was talking said that you had to stay within five pounds of the weight you were when you got married, otherwise you had married your husband on false pretenses.

[Unknown]

Oh, wow.

[Jen Wilkin]

And so here I am just huge pregnant because I didn't just get pregnant here. I got pregnant everywhere. And I thought, oh, dear. And so there was that. But the other messaging that was at that event is something I still hear. I don't think you hear, like the body shaming version. You know what I'm gonna say.

[Unknown]

I do, because it's what I was going to say.

[Jen Wilkin]

I bet you say it.

[Unknown]

No, no.

[Jen Wilkin]

It was that your husband only has you for intimacy, and therefore you need to be available to him whenever he wants intimacy. And that my wishes were not something to be considered. I'm married to a good man. And so this message was not something that devastated my marriage. But we still did. We did have to grapple with it because the expectation was that that's my job. And That I was preventing him from falling into sin by being in that role.

[Unknown]

That's exact. So for me, it's just a slight twist on that of if you keep them happy in the bedroom, in the kitchen, then you are safeguarding your marriage. And I'm like, first of all, that is reducing the. To animalistic behavior as if he's not fully human. It also creates fear based sex, which is not what is intended. And it does not account for a what I would say a non traditional difference in sex drives. Right, right. We put all of that on the man. And then I know so many women who are like, well, where does that leave me? Because even back to your point, right. And so that. And I hear it all the time, just keep him happy. And then I'm like, they are more than that. And I think we need to call. Call our husbands to more than that.

[Vanessa Hawkins]

Right.

[Unknown]

And yeah, into a more beautiful vision.

[Jen Wilkin]

But even learning, like learning about how the differences that there are between male and female sex drives, like just in a general bell curve relationship, which means that women are always having to be pushed toward a male version of sexuality with no consideration for what their default setting might be. And men are never being pushed toward a, you know, there's no meeting in the middle. It's. Nope. Your job. Because men can't possibly moderate their own needs, so therefore you have to meet them. And again, like for Jeff and me, this was not devastating because he is a good man and we had great communication and none of that. But I have sat with so many women, you know, who've dealt with this and they think there's something wrong with them.

[Courtney Docter]

Yes.

[Jen Wilkin]

Or they're not. Not Christian enough. Because not Christian enough.

[Vanessa Hawkins]

They're carrying that weight. That's a, that's a huge weight to carry.

[Jen Wilkin]

It's a huge weight to carry.

[Unknown]

Your husband's morality. Yeah.

[Courtney Docter]

I think most marriages go through difficult seasons, maybe even cold seasons, you know, where you would say, wow, I don't. I know I'm choosing to love you, but I'm not sure if I like you right now or just, just tough times. And it's not a day, but it's months and months and months. Like, is there any adv for a woman who's listening, who's maybe in that season and she's thinking, this is how it will always be and I've just got to deal with this. Is there any wisdom, advice you would give and maybe anything you would encourage her toward in that season?

[Vanessa Hawkins]

Oh, there are a lot of places I want to go with that. But I think, well, one, I think there is a sense of not enoughness or discontentment that I hear not just from married women, but I hear from women, that I hear from people. I think it's a part of, you know, it's that whole, you know, already, not yet. It's, you know, it's needing Christ. It's that void that only he fills. And so it's needing him to satisfy us in that way. But I also think for me some of those seasons have been, you know, my own need for repentance. I think it's harder for me to experience love if it's from the Lord, if it's from my husband, it's from whomever when I have some hard heartedness. And so some of those seasons for me have been, you know, not falling out of love, as David Tripp would say, but falling out of repentance and needing to say I'm sorry. Needing to do an assessment of my own heart and how I'm experiencing, you know, my husband, how I'm experiencing love or not experiencing it because of what's going on in my own heart. So that's been, for me, that's been some of what's happened. Needing to, needing to, to say I'm sorry. Needing to move towards my husband even when I'm not feeling like moving towards him.

[Unknown]

Yeah, that's good. I think part of it is the word you use, seasons. And I think that can be extended far beyond marriage. I think about that. I tell my children that all the time that, you know, when, when you're in a season of being completely overwhelmed or really discouraged or whatever it is the feeling. I picture that at the bottom of a, of a circle. But it's cyclical and things come back around like you're not always going to feel that way. And I think, I think marriage is so, so similar to that or the seasons are very similar in that it's, it's probably not going to stay that way. I mean, if you're moving towards each other, if you're doing the hard work, if you're doing what you said that, that. Yeah, there are, there. I have gone through discouraging seasons. And yet they, they weren't the final word.

[Courtney Docter]

They.

[Unknown]

Things did. You know, the sun does come out again and, and sometimes it's not how we expect it. But I'll tell you what, I've seen beauty in the unexpected. You know, I want the change of season to look a certain way and then, and then the Lord might surprise me and say no, it's actually going to look this way. But. But there's beauty still ahead. I think I would say to the woman who is in the season of discouragement, despair, a little bit of darkness, you know, hang in there and keep praying and working towards. Move towards the Lord, move towards your husband, and there's beauty yet to come.

[Jen Wilkin]

Yeah. I think that Christians in general are. Have a Pollyanna complex with regard to relationships. And I would say that's the full spectrum of relationships. God, self, neighbor. And so we think that because we have the Holy Spirit in us, that we will never doubt God, that we will never doubt a spouse, that we will never doubt a child or a neighbor. And the truth is, we all know a relationship that has gone through a season. And when it comes to marriage, we think it's not allowed. Our marriages are not allowed to go through low points. They're not allowed to go through points of just feeling off. But, you know, parents will, if they're candid. I remember my stepmother telling me, you know, you're always gonna love your kids, but you'll go through protracted seasons where there'll be one you just don't like. And I wanted to go, am I with you? Did you say, you know, I'm sure she did.

[Vanessa Hawkins]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jen Wilkin]

You know, I'm sure she did. Maybe it's happening, right. No, she likes me right now. But I think once you can say, because, you know, think about the problem we have even in the church of admitting that we go through seasons of doubt. God, like, it's one of the things I try to talk about when I can, is that I've gone through a couple of years of doubt. We've had conversations with women who are like, I'm doing outward facing ministry, and I'm wrestling with my own set of doubts. And they think it disqualifies them or means they're not really a Christian. And so I think when it comes to marriage, remembering that doubt or distance are actually natural features of any relationship. Take some of the power away from it when you're. When you're in it.

[Unknown]

And we're all like, doubting Thomas.

[Jen Wilkin]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

But look at what Jesus did. He didn't shame him or send him away. He said, come closer. Bring your doubts, like, just to be with. I mean, that whole thing of.

[Melissa Krueger]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

How we handle when. Because all of us, right, everybody, whoever it is, we're doubting, we all go through those seasons. I think we need to be reminded of just the tender compassion of the Lord with our doubts.

[Courtney Docter]

Well, and I Think it's why we make vows.

[Unknown]

Yes.

[Jen Wilkin]

I mean, that's a really good point.

[Courtney Docter]

That presupposes this isn't your roommate.

[Vanessa Hawkins]

Right.

[Courtney Docter]

I didn't make vows to move in with my girlfriends. It was like, yeah, if this isn't great, I'm out of here. You know, but this says I'm choosing before God and these people to say in sickness and in health. And, you know, those are. Those are real things. You realize sickness can really change a person.

[Vanessa Hawkins]

Yeah.

[Courtney Docter]

And the most wonderful person when they're really dealing with cancer or dealing with things. And you could say, hey, I didn't sign up for this. But, yeah, we say, I'm going to be with you in those moments. I can remember when I threw up every day at the beginning of all of my pregnancies. And sweet Mike, I mean, I can remember he would come and he would just put a glass of water beside me and. Yeah. It was just that it was him choosing to be there and then back away.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Jen Wilkin]

Was he wearing, like, a hazmat suit?

[Unknown]

Hazmat suit, exactly. I know.

[Courtney Docter]

You know?

[Unknown]

I know. And I sometimes think, even I remember in. Earlier in marriage when we were having just a lot more conflict, a lot more struggles. I would think so Vanessa and my husband are besties. And so she'll affirm this about Craig. I remember thinking, you know what? And it's kind of what you started with that faith becoming sight is I was like, I know he will be the one that on my deathbed, if, you know, that's the way the Lord arranges it, he will be. I mean, he will be, like, so compassionate and faithful to the end.

[Jen Wilkin]

Right.

[Unknown]

And so sometimes it is, I think, even looking ahead to be saying, who am I going to be at that moment? And who are we married to in that moment? But, yeah, the beauty of, like, what does a vow mean? And how do we honor that?

[Vanessa Hawkins]

And that the vow is before the God who holds the union together is everything. Because we would mess it up. We do mess it up. And somehow he is able to keep us together, and he is able to hold us together and to keep us repenting and moving towards each other.

[Courtney Docter]

And so, yeah, I don't know if y'all have any verses that you kind of hoped for your marriage. I'm going to read this. This was something I think we talked about. I can't remember when we talked about it, but it's kind of that part, not of a vow, but I think it's how the scriptures encourage us, because I think we tend to only go to marriage passages when we're talking about marriage rather than one another passages.

[Jen Wilkin]

Right?

[Courtney Docter]

Yes. And so this is Romans 12, 9. Let love be genuine. Abhor what is evil, hold fast to what is good. Yeah, I'm so often switch this. I'm like, I'm gonna hold fast to what is not good in you. Love one another with brotherly affection. Outdo one another in showing honor. Do not be slothful in zeal. Be fervent in spirit. Serve the Lord. Rejoice in hope. Be patient in tribulation. Be constant in prayer. Contribute to the needs of the saints and seek to show hospitality.

[Vanessa Hawkins]

So good.

[Courtney Docter]

And, you know, that was kind of this, like, can our home be this? And even maybe. I mean, I think one. One thing, you know, as a family, picking. What do we want our home to be about? Like. And maybe it's First Corinthians 13. I don't know. Do you all have verses that have really kind of said, hey, I want to be aiming toward that in our marriage?

[Vanessa Hawkins]

I think just personally, my husband's such a kind man. He's such a patient man.

[Unknown]

Not too given.

[Vanessa Hawkins]

Not too much in this amen corner over here. Not too much. So for me, just even looking at our conflicts, I'm always thinking that what gets offended is usually not humility, it's pride. And that's, you know, and so for me, it's always having this standard before me that is Christ that who humbled himself until the point of death. Death, even death on a cross. And it's having that type of humility when I'm engaging even in conflict, to be able to see myself, to be able to serve him, to be able to move towards him. And so. And it's the standard we're both. Both called to. It's. It's Christ. And so it's to be able to love like that.

[Unknown]

I love that I've told this story before, but Craig and I were in a conflict. And just in my daily reading, I happen to be in James 4. And it starts off, what causes quarrels and fights among you? And I thought it's literally on him. It's going to have Craig's name in the word of God. Like, it's going to be like, Craig causes quarrels and fights among you. But that whole verse goes on, humble yourself, therefore. And I was like, oh, you know, and. And it's not. And. And I've really learned through the years not to ask the Lord to humble me, but to humble myself first. Like to. Because I. The Lord will humble. But I would rather do the work and come before the Lord and say, let me humble myself rather than need to be humbled. And so. But that, that does I think about that as you know, I might have said it to be funny, but I think about it a lot in that of what is causing quarrels and fights among us. It is my pride that's always mine.

[Jen Wilkin]

Yes.

[Unknown]

And so if I will humble myself. So that's my marriage verse. James 4.

[Jen Wilkin]

Ben Stewart, who has written a lot on dating and marriage that I really like a lot of his advice, but he makes the point most of marriage is just hanging out. And so he's like, be sure you marry someone who you want to hang out with. But what that reminds me of is that while there are very few passages in the New Testament dealing specifically with marriage, we have 343 times that the word adelphoi occurs, brothers and sisters. And that what we forget when we get married is we're like, well now we've moved away from phileo to, you know, just romantic love is what we're thinking about here to Eros. And it's just patently false. During COVID I went down a wormhole watching the Indian matchmaking series. It was about arranged marriages. And I'm like, I can arrange marriages for my children. This is the way. But they would interview these couples who had been married for like 50 years. And they would say, you know, I knew him for 25 minutes before we got married. And then she would talk about, you know, the man I thought I was marrying was completely different from the man I ended up marrying. And she said, we've been married 50 years and he's my soulmate. Which I thought in our culture we forget. And the Bible even tells us like in the New Jerusalem, you're worried about being married, but you're gonna be brothers and sisters for eternity. That's my paraphrase.

[Unknown]

Children again, that concept, right?

[Jen Wilkin]

Yes, let's do the arranged marriage. But also like Courtney, if we saw, if we focused on the one another's more than you're supposed to be doing this in your role or you're supposed to be doing, you know, then our marriages would begin to function in an eternal way. I think not to sound Mormon, that sounded a little Mormon, guys. But you know what I'm saying, like that we be looking toward the, the eternal relationships.

[Unknown]

Well, and when you make a list of what all the verb that precedes one another in the New Testament, I can't remember how many times I thought you were 54.

[Jen Wilkin]

Ish.

[Unknown]

Okay.

[Jen Wilkin]

I thought it was 4 to 59. Yeah, yeah.

[Unknown]

I thought it was more, but it's. And you. Then you write the verb pray for love, forgive, bear with honor. Like, it's all of these. I mean, and you make a list of that. I think if we were living that those one another is out in our marriage, they would be beautiful.

[Courtney Docter]

Like, we keep talking about what we need to do in marriage, it's all gonna be a wealth of them, what.

[Unknown]

They need to do.

[Jen Wilkin]

I do think it's worth mentioning, like, before we stop this conversation. I know you're thinking the same thing. We recognize that not all marriages are in a place that is bearing any resemblance to the relationship between Christ and his church. And I think we would all agree that there are marriages that actually become a desecration of that image. And so if you're a woman who's listening to this and you're in an abusive spot, if you're in danger, our message to you is not just stick it out. We want to make sure that you get good counsel and good help.

[Courtney Docter]

Absolutely. And I was going to actually close with this question. So maybe not in an abusive marriage, but maybe in a marriage where you're the only one walking with the Lord. We are all blessed to be in marriages with spouses who. Who want to live in light of Scripture. So even. Yeah. We have the. The ability to go to our husbands and say, hey, I mean, you know, I don't see that this. In you. Like, we. We have that same.

[Unknown]

They're good men, each one of them.

[Courtney Docter]

And there are brothers in Christ.

[Unknown]

Yes.

[Courtney Docter]

Right.

[Unknown]

Yes.

[Courtney Docter]

You know, but there are a lot of women who are married to people who aren't walking with the Lord, who maybe aren't interested in working on their marriage, who may be caught in sin that are damaging their marriage. What advice would y'all just. We'll close on this. What advice would you give that woman who's maybe just. She still wants her marriage to work? It's not a marriage, you know, that she needs to exit.

[Jen Wilkin]

For safety.

[Courtney Docter]

Yeah. For safety or even more reasons that, you know. But. But it's just really hard, and she feels alone in it.

[Vanessa Hawkins]

Yeah. Wow. I think the community is big as far as having healthy community, healthy friendships. People who can walk with you and people who can love you and care for you in that season is helpful. But also, it's a call to pray for that husband, and it's a part of his sanctification. And yours is that we are Called to pray for our husbands in those hard periods and when it's not a hard period, but yeah, it's a part of the call. I don't know, Courtney, what would you say?

[Unknown]

I would say step into the light and so be known, be known in the context of your local church. And I think the situations that we're talking about are so varied that it's hard to speak specifically to that person because there are times that it's dangerous or there are times that it is, it is just grievously damaging. And so I would say just if it's hidden, if you, if nobody knows this about you or your marriage or your spouse, step into the light and be known and let the, let the community, the context of your local church help you discern and walk through the hard times.

[Vanessa Hawkins]

Yeah, that's good.

[Jen Wilkin]

Many churches set aside benevolence funds for people to get at least a few counseling sessions. So I would say ask him to go with you. If he says no, go by yourself, go to counseling. And if your church doesn't have money to pay for something like that, I would say be careful that you don't receive counsel from someone with no training because there are a lot of well meaning people in ministry who don't know how to walk into a situation like that and might think that just because of their role they are supposed to.

[Courtney Docter]

So yeah, and I would just give just one word of hope. I mean we are not static people. People always say, oh, people don't change. You get what you get, you know, when you get married. And we believe in the power of the Holy Spirit. So even if they are not walking with the Lord today, I think we can pray with hope that the Lord will transform their hearts. And, and I always like to say to people, don't borrow trouble, ten year trouble. Because what I think we tend to say in our minds is I can't do this for 10 more years. I think ask for the grace to say, lord, will you help me do this today? Help me walk with a husband who's not loving me well, help me walk with a husband who doesn't love Jesus. Help me. Yeah, I'm bearing the spiritual weight of our family alone. Help me do it today. I think it's when I look forward too long or, you know, whatever is hard in our life, we think I can't do this for 10 years. He has an asked you yet. And maybe, maybe his spirit will intervene and change because we really do see, I think all of us, even in those hard places, marriages can change and grow and become amazingly different than they began.

[Vanessa Hawkins]

And here's the thing. And when you take on praying for your spouse, that change might be pretty immediate. It's often not. But what will end? What. What will inevitably happen? Either he will change or the Lord will change you and give you the grace to endure. Right. And so. And that's. That's part of the. That's a part of the prayer, you know, that's part of going before the Lord and taking someone. Is that he changes you and gives you the grace.

[Unknown]

Yes, yes. Demolish the idol of this fairy tale marriage. That's what. Yeah. It's a beautiful thing.

[Courtney Docter]

Yeah. Well, thanks so much for this discussion and really going deep on these things of marriage because this is. This is tough for a lot of women, and it's often a place you feel like you can't talk about with other people. But I'm gonna ask one deep dish question for both of you ladies. Can you share with us what's a mundane? We've kind of got a little bit of this from you already. What's just a mundane task you love doing with your husband?

[Vanessa Hawkins]

Okay. I mean, and it is truly mundane. But. But just one of the things just in our New York City apartment that we didn't ever do in our house is that from my closet, which is where my laundry is, my washer and dryer, it just. The clothes go from the dryer to the bed. And so he ends up standing on one side of the bed, and I'm standing on the other side of the bed, and we're folding laundry. And it's mindless work. So we get to just talk about each other, and we just get to hang out. And it's. It's. It's simple. It's some. It's mundane, but it's kind of the sweet.

[Unknown]

That's precious.

[Jen Wilkin]

That's nice.

[Courtney Docter]

Sweet.

[Jen Wilkin]

Yeah. We love to go to the gardening center and wander around. And also we like to identify trees. Yeah.

[Courtney Docter]

So romantic.

[Jen Wilkin]

We like to identify trees. Maple. He's the one who knows them all. It's me. It's sort of like a little pop quiz for me. I know plants. He knows trees and birds.

[Courtney Docter]

And she's not like. And your kids know this, too. You're like a whole family of it.

[Jen Wilkin]

Plants, people. I love it.

[Unknown]

It's amazing.

[Vanessa Hawkins]

I love it.

[Courtney Docter]

I love it. Well, thanks so much for joining us on this episode of the Deep Dish. We look forward to more deep conversations, and we hope you'll join us next time.

[Unknown]

Hey, friends. It's Melissa Krueger here, and I'm so excited that you're listening to the Deep Dish. Wanna stay connected and get even more resources for growing in your faith? We've got a new newsletter for you, and we're so excited about it. When you subscribe, you'll get discussion questions for the Deep Dish episodes, memory verses, updates on what's happening with women's initiatives, as well as some of our favorite staff picks. And these are really fun. So head over to tgc.org women and sign up today. We can't wait to connect with you again. That's TGC.org women.