Courtney Doctor (3:23)

You probably will.

Melissa Krueger (3:26)

This is what we can tell ourselves. But then I think there are all these silly marks of righteousness too. And I know we'll get to this that are a little bit more how we just choose to judge people and pump ourselves up a little bit. Like, oh, you know, my child walked at 10 months. I'm sure they're going to be an Olympic runner now. You know, whatever it might be that, you know, we look back on and we're like, what was I thinking? Oh, my eyes are blue, my eyes are brown, whatever you like. These silly things that are clearly nothing to do with us that we can take a lot of pride in sometimes. And so I think it's those things, these big things that are real issues that make us feel somehow, um, I would say vertically okay. And then I think we have these horizontal ones that probably help us feel like we measure okay in the world around us. What about you? Like, so let's, let's step back though, a minute. What are we even talking about when we talk about righteousness? What does that mean?

Courtney Doctor (4:29)

Well, righteousness, like, we kind of shy away from that word because I think the, the most common way it's used in culture is self righteous. And so we, we like to shy away from that word. But righteousness is one of the concepts in all of scripture. Our entire salvation is wrapped up in this word righteous. And when, you know, I wrote that Bible study on the book of Romans and the first three chapters just really spell it out. And what the first three chapters of Romans tell us are, he starts off with like, the wrath of God is being revealed against unrighteousness. So you should be like, well, I don't wanna be unrighteous. But then he goes on and he's like, well, guess what? No one's righteous. No, not one. And he just. And so you're like, oh, well, so. So if I'm not righteous and the wrath of God is being revealed against unrighteousness, what am I going to do? And then that's when Romans 3:21 comes in and he's like, but a righteousness from God has been revealed and it's given, and you get it just by faith. And so our entire salvation is wrapped up in this idea of righteousness and whose righteousness is it? And so it's the righteousness of Christ and righteousness. I think one reason it's confusing is because it can really have three different nuances to it. So righteousness is who God is. Like, he is righteous, he is holy, he is morally pure, but it's also what he does. What he does is righteous. It is good and right, but then it's also what he gives. And so that's the righteousness of Christ that then we get to receive. And so even understanding like the, the root of our righteousness is Christ and Christ alone, and that's kind of what we're gonna talk about, because when we start making that righteousness something that we can produce, then then we are actually, I mean, that is like detestable to the Lord because he's like, no, you can't do that. Like, you need to receive the righteousness that I'm offering to you for free and by faith. And then out of that we get to walk in the righteousness of Christ. And so doing good things, like living, pursuing holiness and being obedient and doing good works are good, good things, but they are always the fruit and not the root of our salvation and of end of the work of God in our lives. So I, I love that we started with that because it's a really, really important concept. And you had kind of started already naming some of these things. And I think where it can get confusing is some of these are really good and right, but they become this fodder for this self righteousness. And I think we should both give some examples of things that either we've seen in our own lives or lives of those near and dear to us. And some of them, like you said, are so serious, but some of them are kind of funny.

Melissa Krueger (7:19)

What I like that you hit on in that Ephesians 2 passage. You know, it's a gift of God, not by works. And there's actually a reason, so no one can boast, you know, but that he has actually prepared good works for us in advance that we might walk in them. So it's not in opposition to doing good. It's actually we're being prepared to do good. So. So these things that we're getting ready to talk about, it's not that they're bad, it's just when we wear them as a badge, you know, or maybe even determine what they should look like. So one thing I was thinking about is serving in the church. Like that can be a real mark of self righteousness. Like how many days are you serving in the church, Courtney? What Are you. What are you doing? And that. That can be different. Oh, you're teaching. Well, that's kind of prideful of you. I mean, are you sweeping the floor?

Courtney Doctor (8:14)

Right.

Melissa Krueger (8:15)

And are you watching in the nursery? Like, we can even. Or it could be, oh, you teach them. You never need to do anything else. Yes, we. And it depends on what context you're in. What's ranked more. So some people will be like, oh, you know, the person doing the nursery, normally the nursery coordinator loves these people. And I used to be that nursery coordinator, and I love those people. I'm like, yes, you're righteous if you serve in the nursery every week. But I didn't really mean that. But. Or, but some, you know, we can elevate certain gifts and de. Elevate certain services or whatever. There's this desire to say, okay, I did this, now I'm a good church member. I mean, that's one big area I see. What about you?

Courtney Doctor (9:02)

Well, or we rank, like, how. How good of a Christian we are through these things. Like, and. And it can be anything. It's how we educate our children. Real Christians educate their children.

Melissa Krueger (9:16)

We'll do that podcast sometimes.

Courtney Doctor (9:18)

Fill in the blank. Right, Exactly. But anytime you start thinking like real Christians or those that are more serious about their faith or those that are more spiritually mature, you know, they're going to vote for, like, this. Or they're going to, you know, handle social media in this way. Like, they're going to come to stronger convictions on it. Or, you know, I laugh at myself all the time because I have to combat in my own heart this idea that timeliness is not actually a moral virtue. Like, I view it as a moral virtue.

Melissa Krueger (9:56)

Is this your secret way running me? Because I am like, I think this is. I think this is secret way of saying, yeah, I. Melissa, you're unrighteous and the wrath of God is being.

Courtney Doctor (10:09)

I feel superior to you when I'm on time and you're not. Like, I mean, it's just, I have someone in my family who honestly thinks, like, that her ability to not get sick is a moral virtue. Like, she has a stronger constitution, and it's a moral virtue that she doesn't get sick as often as maybe somebody else. But you just start thinking, like, all of these things that either you and your mind think make you superior or. Or are this, like, it's. You're a better Christian. Like, you've progressed further in your life because you've come to this particular conviction. And I don't think you even have to be a Christian, to fall into, to self righteousness. So what are some of the things that we just see in like in the culture at large?

Melissa Krueger (11:01)

Isn't it funny how moral we are as a culture? Even if it's not biblical morals, man, we can get, you know, all kind of moral about certain things. I mean, it could be. I mean, it could be traffic rules, which, you know, it's not bad to follow traffic rules or something like that. But like, I mean, I just think about things like how what we eat, how we exercise. Oh, are you still doing cardio? Oh, my goodness. Everything. I mean now, I mean, what are you doing? You know, I mean, and the same thing as food. Are you still trying a low carb diet? You need a high protein diet. Aren't you keeping up, Courtney? You know, I mean, man, there's this feeling, right? Because the reality about those norms is they're constantly changing. So it could be even the beliefs of how government should be working, what government should be doing. Oh, goodness. Oh, good. I mean, childbirth options. I'm so thankful I gave birth when I did. It wasn't yet a thing that it had really become. I mean, it used to just be a mark of righteousness. You had the baby, praise the Lord.

Courtney Doctor (12:08)

Now it's natural at home. I mean, there are all these things that. And I think even right now, this, like the pluralism and it is street cred to be in light, like falling on the right side of some of these issues is it really is kind of has become a moral virtue rather than being able to hold an opinion with careful thought. And maybe it's not super popular right now, but it, it isn't a moral standing or it isn't like it doesn't make you a superior person. But man, right now we see that, don't we?

Melissa Krueger (12:52)

Yeah, it's. And it's. And so I think you're right. We see it in the world, we see it in the church. And I think one thing to even be thinking of as you're listening to this conversation is I'm thinking what I'm thinking about now. It's not just what I take pride in, it's also where I despair.

Courtney Doctor (13:11)

Yeah.

Melissa Krueger (13:12)

Because the other, the root of pride is always where do I feel like the biggest failure is actually probably assigned to spot my own mark of righteousness. So I mean, that's a good thing. I don't know if you have any tells, like how do you spot these in your life? And so for me, it can be like what we've just Been talking about where we might be tempted to look down on someone else, but it's also where I find myself chasing something. And maybe if I'm not even living up to my own standard, I'm exhausted and weary because I'm like, oh, wow, I didn't eat the right way. I said I was gonna eat. Which is not something, you know, in scripture that I'm shooting for in a sense, but I'm. I'm judging myself. So it's. It's that pendulum of pride and despair wherever we see. I think that we're. We're on that. That's maybe a good sign of, Of. Of where we're dealing with this. Well, let's read. Can I read? Can I read for us? Philippians 3, 4, 10. Because I think this is a really interesting. Paul, basically, you know, he gives his resume in this passage, and here's what he says. I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. I think that's a good way to say it. Where am I putting confidence in the flesh? That's a great way to say it. If anyone else thinks he has reasons for confidence in the flesh, I have more circumcised on the eighth day of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew, of Hebrews, as to the law, a Pharisee, as to zeal, a persecutor of the church of. As to righteousness under the law, blameless. But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. Indeed, I count everything as loss for the surpassing worth of knowing Christ, Jesus, my Lord. So, okay, tell us a little bit about Paul. He comes in, he's got a good resume. Well, isn't that stuff good? Like, shouldn't he, you know, be thankful for it? How do we. How do we reckon this when we look at Paul, what Paul's saying here?

Courtney Doctor (15:19)

Well, he's saying it's not where his confidence is. It's not where his righteousness is. And so, you know, today that might be. I went to a Christian college. I did a degree. You know, I was raised in a Christian home. I have memorized entire books of the Bible. I went to seminary and I went to the Rite Seminary, and I, you know, serve in the church in all. All.

Melissa Krueger (15:48)

Like, we're.

Courtney Doctor (15:48)

We're putting our resume out there to say, this is why you should. This is the fruit you should see in my life instead of what Scripture says. To look for as fruit is love and joy and peace and patience and kindness and goodness and gentleness and faithfulness. And I got those in the wrong order and self control. And, you know, this idea that, that we're trying to say, you should respect me, you should think highly of me. So first of all, that's the goal, right? Think highly of me because of these. And that it's based in something other than what scripture actually says is the fruit of the work of the Spirit in our lives. And so Paul, he decides not to trust in these things. His religious pedigree. But what are some ways that we kind of hang on to this pedigree, if you will? I think about people who just cling to, well, I was baptized, you know, in the. My name is on a brick in the church because I gave a certain amount of money. Like, of course, I am a highly esteemed person in this church because of those things. I was a founding member. Like, these are all things that we can really, you know, put our confidence in rather than humbly humbling ourselves. And we'll talk about that. Humbling ourselves and putting our confidence in the work of Christ. Like, that's where our confidence needs to be. So how are you seeing it today? I think that, I guess where I'm kind of leading with that question is this idea of tribalism that we're seeing, it's so prevalent right now. And so how are marks of righteousness tied up in tribalism among believers?

Melissa Krueger (17:43)

Yeah, I mean, I think, I think this is, oh, I always hate to say, a unique time in history of saying these things. Things have always been happening. Maybe it's exposed more because of the public nature of what different people believe. But it's just interesting when you go on Twitter or even now Instagram, I feel like Instagram's getting politicized now, or Facebook, and there really is this pile on effect. And, and it becomes, well, I heard so and so said this, and I heard so and so said this. So we become tribes. I mean, it's so much like Corinthians, right? Where I follow Apollos and I follow Paul. I mean, we're. We're seeing that lived out. And it's almost like, no, no, I am righteous because my view aligns with X person. You're unrighteous because you're saying something that that person saying who is completely unorthodox in other ways or whatever. You know, I mean, there's just this. I mean, tribalism is the best word. This group think mentality Without a lot of.

Courtney Doctor (18:54)

All the boxes. You have to tick all the boxes. Yes, yes.

Melissa Krueger (18:58)

Without a lot of, A lot of space to even Consider. And I'm talking. I'm not talking about things that are clear in Scripture. Okay. When we're having this conversation, let's just, you know, let's just make sure we're saying there are things that are clear in scripture. Yeah, I'm tribal on that. Okay.

Courtney Doctor (19:17)

I'm, like, full in primary issues. Yes.

Melissa Krueger (19:21)

I'm like, obey, obey. You know, following Jesus will always be, always be better than walking in opposition to his ways, you know, so that's not what we're talking about. But there are clearly, you know, decisions that you're gonna make in your parenting. There are clearly decisions you're gonna make even about what you spend your money on. I mean, you know, we could really see it as a mark of righteousness. I never take a vacation. Why would I spend money on a vacation? Like, so. I mean, they're just. Everyone has them, and every group has them.

Courtney Doctor (19:53)

Everyone has them. That's exactly it. That's good.

Melissa Krueger (19:57)

Yeah. And I think getting outside and really asking ourselves some hard questions is really tough to do. And that's. Even as we prepared for this, what I had to step back and say, whew, okay, I gotta really think through what. Where am I tempted to do this now? In the graciousness and kindness of the Lord, typically where I'm tempted to do this, he allows me to fall flat on my face, and I'll be unable to live up to my own righteous standard or whatever, you know, or he just exposes how silly it is. And that is his grace to us. Actually, that is his complete and utter grace to us. But we all probably recognize this in our heart. So, Courtney, when we see it, when we're like, oh, my goodness, I am totally judging these people because they show up five minutes late to everything or whatever, what do we do? What. What do we do in our own hearts when we see that reaction? Like, how can we respond rightly when we start to sniff it out in our own hearts?

Courtney Doctor (21:01)

Well, I think there's a few things. I think, first of all, remembering the truth of the gospel, and I mean, I just mean going through the facts of the gospel, that it is the righteousness of Christ alone that I have. I am completely bankrupt. I have none. And without this outside righteousness being given to me, I am lost in nothing. And it has been given, and it is only by faith, which is also a gift. I add nothing to my salvation except the sin that necessitates it. I don't know who said that first, but I love that I bring nothing to the TABLE except moral, bankruptcy, sin. So it is, I remind myself of the gift and then that allows me to humble myself. And I'm saying it that way on purpose because I find myself praying all the time, I'll be like, lord, humble me. And then I'm like, no, no, no, let me humble myself. Like, I don't actually want the Lord to have to humble me. I want to do the work to humble myself because he will, like he will and he, he has. But, but James 4 tells us to humble ourselves. And so, so to do that intentionally and to look for areas to do the hard work, to say, where do I, where do I feel morally superior? Where do I think this is a, a better Christian way? You know, I can think about denominations. I, I remember a friend telling me one time how she had progressed and she was talking about she had moved through three denominations and she saw it as progression. And I just, you know, we had a little conversation right then and there about like, wait a minute, like that we have to be really careful with that or the right worship style. And you know, you hear that on all these, you hear it on every side and every side thinks they're right. And so, you know, I think it's reminding ourselves too that being right is not a Christian virtue. And, and we cling to it like it is. And so I would just say that when those things rear their ugly head, the self righteousness, the marks of righteousness, recognize them, speak the gospel truth back to them and then humble yourself in that and remind yourself that there is no one righteous, no, not one. And if God had not revealed his righteousness through Christ, we would all be lost forever. And so that's a humbling thing to remember. Okay, I wanna take a break because I wanna take a break and hear a word from our sponsors. But then when we come back, you had started alluding to this thing about like what issues we actually do need to be kind of tribal on. And I want to come back and talk about those things after our break.

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Courtney Doctor (24:45)

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Courtney Doctor (25:35)

Because mom really is the one that makes home feel special foreign.

Melissa Krueger (25:44)

Welcome back for this discussion that we've been having on marks of righteousness. So Courtney, as we've been talking and as we're wrestling with these things, here's the, here's the reality before us. Righteousness is a really good thing. The desire to have a life. I mean I pray it all the time, Lord, let me walk in a manner worthy of the gospel. Like and Paul says, you know, walk in a manner worthy of the gospel. He says it all the time. And so this leads to this question. There is a right way to live out the Christian life. And then there are secondary issues. So we as theologians, you know, we call these primary issues and secondary issues of the faith. And so can you give us a little explainer on how those help us discern where it is right for us to like call a friend out on behavior, you know, and where it's maybe a place to say, okay, this is a weaker brother, weaker sister issue, you know. So there, there are issues that we really do have to say. This is an issue of obedience to the Lord that he calls us to in the Word. Some issues are just, hey, as I have prayed about this, this is where I feel, how I feel led to lead my life. I'm going to get up at 5:30 every morning and read my Bible. I'm not going to confront you because you're not doing that same behavior. So how do we discern what's what as we walk in life?

Courtney Doctor (27:20)

Yeah, I think that, you know, even going back to your Comments about tribalism and where we divide other believers and where we are united. I think it is really important to understand like that there is this theological triage. There are these different layers and levels of what we absolutely have to be united on and what it's okay to have disagreement over. And so, you know, we call them primary, secondary and tertiary, first, second and third place. And so primary issues are issues that if somebody does not agree with you on that issue, then you actually would not extend the right hand of fellowship or you would not count them as a, as a fellow brother or sister in Christ. And so those are things that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. That the Bible is the inerrant, infallible, inspired word of God, that Jesus was fully man and fully God, that he was. That the virgin birth happened, that the resurrection, bodily resurrection from the dead happened. That God exists, one God and three persons. You know, the Trinity. These are things that, that if somebody says, no, I deny that, then you actually say, then I do not count you as a brother or sister in the faith. And I've heard people talk about this. These are issues you die for. These are primary. They are of first importance. Secondary issues are things that you don't die for, but you can debate them and you can hold these convictions deeply. So they're important, but they are not necessary to, to count somebody as a fellow believer. So we can disagree on what we call eschatology or the time that Jesus is going to return. We can disagree on when, in, when in someone's faith, should they be baptized. You know, do you believe in infant baptism or do you wait for a profession of faith? We can disagree on the method of baptism immersion or sprinkling, so the amount of water that's used. We can disagree on how long it took God to create the world. I mean, there are all these things, how we use the Sabbath. We don't have to agree on all of those things, but you don't count somebody that disagrees as not a brother or sister in the faith. And then I think what's so ironic right now is there are these third place issues. And these are. So if we die for primary issues, if we debate secondary issues, tertiary issues, we just discuss like they're not, they're not divisive at all. In fact, I don't want all my friends to agree with me on these. But these are actually the areas that we are, we are dividing the most over. And there are some of the things we've talked about, like, you know, how how clean you eat, how you decide to go through childbirth, the style of worship. These are like, have your opinions on these things. But my word, your whole friend group and your whole church does not need to agree with you on these things. These are tertiary. So, so I think even just going through and recognizing and talking and knowing, knowing the place of importance in this. But I think what's interesting is we take these tertiary issues and they're the things that become marks of righteousness. And so along those lines, you've written a great book on parenting and I think parenting is one of these areas. Absolutely tertiary, like absolutely. There are so many different ways to, to parent and to, you know, discipline and to think about like how you have your children eat or educate or all these. But, but in parenting we can be really divided on that and it's really tempting to kind of trust in our own righteousness. Like if we do it right, then our kids are going to turn out well. And if they don't turn out well, then it's our fault and we really, you know, messed it up. And I just think about how when my kids were little, I could fluctuate between shame and pride within like less than a second, depending on what was happening. So what do you see in parenting and the marks of righteousness and then what's the antidote?

Melissa Krueger (31:32)

And it is interesting, even as I think through your three categories, there are some primary things for parents, right? You are commanded to raise your, you know, to have the His Word on your heart and to teach these truths to your children. So we would say, hey, that is part of your God given role as a parent is to say Jesus loves you. You know, I mean, there are definitely things we're going to say are really important. And then there are these secondary issues like are you going to baptize your child or you're not going to baptize your child. But we want to say, you know, as a parent, you have a responsibility to take your kid to church. You know, that's a, that's a responsibility God has given by placing that child in your home to, to, to do some of, you know, to, to follow him. You're following God and you're bringing your children along in that. But then we have these secondary issues again that are important, just like you said. But I think you're exactly right. We live in these tertiary issues a lot of times as parents. And it starts, as you said, in pregnancy. What are the foods I'm eating in pregnancy? You know, how big is my child measuring? I mean, Goodness, how much amniotic fluid do I have? I mean, we can just get all wrapped.

Courtney Doctor (32:52)

I'm pride that my child was in the 90th percentile of like height or something. Like. Yeah, that's good. Like what?

Melissa Krueger (32:58)

Exactly, exactly. And we can, you know, again take pride in how and where and when we gave birth. I mean it was 2:00am or it was, I don't know, it's when you really step back from it. It's so silly. A lot of the things with parenting, but it can really divide fellowship among women. I mean I, these things are, you know, whether it's sleep training, goodness gracious, that was a big thing in my mothering season. You know, whether it's how you will feed your child starting from birth, breastfeeding or bottle feeding. I mean these things. And we can, here's what's a little bit dangerous. We can put a spiritual veneer on it. Well, you know, God made me as a person to be able to breastfeed, therefore it must be his way of doing it. Like so it, it becomes spiritualized. And I think that's where we get really dangerous when we kind of add a little. Well, I mean, you know, like I know there are two ways, but let me tell you why my way is a little more righteous.

Courtney Doctor (34:20)

So true. Yeah.

Melissa Krueger (34:22)

I mean, so you have grandkids, so you're seeing it second generation. Like how. Tell me a little bit about the view from that perspective, you know. Cause that's a little bit different.

Courtney Doctor (34:34)

Well, I think that this is, you know, I'd be interested to know if my sons and daughter in laws, who are the ones with the grandkids would agree with this. But it's really interesting because I did hold some really strong convictions about parenting and oh my word, they were absolutely marks of righteousness. But I do think that my goal is to recognize the non negotiables, to recognize the tertiary issues and to rejoice in the fact that the Lord is at work and it doesn't have to be. They can make decisions different than me. And they are, they are. And that's a good thing because what I realize then, it actually humbles me because I think I've got pretty old awesome kids. And so it's easy to be like, well that's because I, you know, did this and this and this as a parent. But it's not, it's the grace of God at every single moment. And so as I'm watching them make very different choices in some areas, then it's like, oh yeah, it's the grace of God for them too. So it's a humbling, growing experience even from the, you know, grandmother seat, which I love. It just continues to kind of push these issues further down in my heart and it continues to reveal areas where I have marks of righteousness because I have to combat those at every.

Melissa Krueger (36:00)

Can I say something about that?

Courtney Doctor (36:02)

Yeah.

Melissa Krueger (36:02)

Do you think that is why it is so wonderful to have a few women in your life who do have their children raised like their adult children, to ask some of your young child parenting questions to. Because you have that perspective of being, you know, 30 years out from when you had a baby, so to speak, and to be able to just say, hey, you know, I thought this was really important in the moment and now I can step back from it and say, yeah, you really need to pray about that and you need to think about that. I mean, because we would both say, hey, educational choices for your kids really matter. Yeah, I mean, you should really think about it. You can't take that lightly and just say, oh, it doesn't really matter. It does matter. You know, it does and we need to consider it. Well, be prayerful about it. See, but. But we all have different circumstances. We all have different callings in life at different points and we all have different, really different, even educational opportunities and situations. So on something like that. I just think it's so helpful to some older voices in our lives. But let me also say this because sometimes what I realize when I say older voices, let me say older sanctified voices who have been in the Word who have allowed the Lord to shift, because I will tell you, I might get in trouble for this. Sometimes older voices in the church can just get more hardened in their views of self righteousness.

Courtney Doctor (37:40)

That's right.

Melissa Krueger (37:41)

And they can be the very judgmental. If we are not being constantly humbled by our, you know, by the Lord and in our time in the Word and remembering it is by grace alone, through faith alone. You know, if we're not doing that work and you know, if we're not really open to correction and regularly confessing and regularly repenting, all of that's what's softening that soil to help us remember what is really, you know, in these primary issues and others. We need those women in the church calling back to younger women. And so I do want to say be wise about who, where you're getting advice because I know there can be, you know, I mean, marks of righteousness doesn't end because, you know, we get gray hair like, exactly.

Courtney Doctor (38:31)

Well, and I think that that's a word to any woman who's listening, who is the older woman, which, you know, we all are. It does not. I was talking with a friend last night. You know, if you're in college, you're the older woman. You've got a high schooler. If you're in high schooler, you can be the older woman because you can disciple a middle schooler. But what I mean, like, in this context is women whose children are raised. It's so easy to want to disciple people into our image and be like, well, this is what I did, and you need to go and do likewise. And instead to get to the point that you can say, hey, I'll tell you what I did. It may or may not work for you. Like, I don't mind, I don't mind offering an example, but it's when it becomes prescriptive rather than descriptive that it becomes a mark of righteousness. Right? This is what you must do instead of thinking. And, you know, I think it's so beautiful too. As a grandmother, like, I learned so much from my children who have children and watching my daughter in laws raise their children, I'm just, I marvel. I'm like, oh, I wish I had done it that way, or I wish I had thought to do, do that. And it's just a, you know, it's a really beautiful thing to, to have the learning go both directions, for sure.

Melissa Krueger (39:45)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's good, that's good. But I do think that's one of those areas, parenting, where it's always good to step back and say, am. Am I prideful in this or am I despairing in this? You know, because I mean both. Yeah. Rather than to just pause and say and be prayerful, rather than seeking the solutions in our flesh, as Paul would have said. And really, I would encourage, you know, this is why we have the church, we have one another to ask these questions to and to really seek one another. So, okay, let me ask this question. When it comes to this, and we're in, you know, we're hanging out with our friends and maybe these issues are coming up and we're hearing things said that maybe are taking a tertiary issue, and we're hearing judgmental things being said about those who don't follow our tribe, so to speak, how do we engage with others? How do we live this out practically and engage well with people when we, you know, you know, you're sitting around with a group of eight women over dinner and you hear these things being said, do you jump in. Do you just sit silently? What do we do in that situation?

Courtney Doctor (41:09)

Well, yeah, and part of that's gonna depend on your personality. And so, you know me, I'm not gonna sit silently. I wanna jump into that. But I think that there is. I think that there is a redemptive presence in this. If you're sitting around with a group of friends and, you know, you start really. If you start paying attention to the conversations and you realize, like, oh, you guys are getting really tribal. Like, you guys are getting like your whole friend group or your who. Social media presence or whatever it is, is getting really, like you're requiring people to agree with you on all these things. I would say, first of all, go back and read John 17 because Jesus prayed that we would be one. He did not pray that we would be the same. And sameness and oneness are not the same. So to push against this idea that we all need to be the same, to delight in different opinions on things and to learn from each other that this is. It is okay if you disagree on these things, these tertiary issues, like, it is okay. And it's actually, I think life is more interesting and enjoyable. I don't want all my friends to agree with me politically or worship style or all of these things, you know, how to educate our children. I don't want my friends to agree with me on all of those things. And I love having these conversations with people when they do disagree. So learn to recognize where you're requiring sameness and you're requiring agreement on all these things to really love and trust somebody. But also, I think the gist of Romans 14 is that the Lord is calling us to love others more than we love our convictions. And I just don't think that's happening on the, you know, on the rag in society right now. So Romans 14, Paul says, as for the one who's weak in faith, and he's going to go on and define that. He says, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. So here he's saying, y' all don't agree on something, so welcome this person, but not so that you can convince him of that. He says, one person believes that he may eat anything, so he's kind of got looser convictions around something, while the weak person eats only vegetables. So these tighter convictions or restraints, which I think we. It's interesting. I think we tend. Tend to think that when we have really rigid opinions on things that were the stronger person. But what Paul's saying is, no, actually, the stronger person understands what's tertiary and they understand Christian freedom. And then he says, don't. But if you're the one that eats, if you're the one that has a little bit more freedom in this, don't despise the one who is a little bit more constricted on this. And if you're the one that's a little bit more constricted, don't pass judgment on the one who eats. So you're not judging somebody for not agreeing with you. And you're not, like, despising the person because you think, my gosh, that's just ridiculous that you think that that's that important. But instead you welcome each other. And then he's like, and do not for the sake of food. But I think we could say, do not for the sake of political affiliation or educational choices or, you know, mode of baptism or Bible translation or worship style. Do not destroy the work of God like it actually is destroying our witness. Jesus is like, they're gonna know you're my disciples by the way. You love each other. And so this unity in the faith, the unity on the essentials, the unity on the primary issues, is actually our witness to the watching world. So then back to John 17. He ends that prayer by saying, make them one so that the world will know that the Father sent the Son. So there's this beautiful witness to our ability to come together in. In joyful fellowship, even, and in the midst of disagreement on these lesser issues. And so I would just say cultivate that in your friend group, cultivate that online, Pursue that in your own life and in your own family system. Do you want to add anything to that before I ask you the ending question, the last question?

Melissa Krueger (45:28)

I think the one thing I would say on this, too, and this is part of that humility, is to remember we're all growing in the faith and we're all learning. So even things that I think when I look back on 20 years ago, I would have held to so staunchly, can I be compassionate to that person maybe, who is in a place I was 20 years ago and who is holding to how you should do sleep training really rigidly. Can I remember? Well, you know, I was really struggling with that at that point in a kind way. Just remember, the goal is like, hey, let's grow in the faith and let's walk toward the Lord together, not get everyone to agree with us on these issues. And so I think keeping what's most important, important. And so I always say what I want to draw women into is God's word. Get them growing and abiding in that. Because if my words abide in you, you know, then, you know, we're going to see a fruitful branch, so to speak. But the problem is we're often calling people to our team rather, you know, like, hey, come be like me. Just like you said earlier, the spiritual growth is always saying, come be more like Jesus. Let me point you to him. And the way we do that is to get people in the Word and in the Word ourselves. That is going to be the greatest way we battle self righteousness, is to constantly be in the Word, be in prayer, walking with Jesus, because it's going to continually expose us, it's going to continually show us ourselves, but then at the same time it's going to humble us and make us kind as we walk with others who have different opinions on some of these issues. And at the same time it will give us discernment to know, hey, that that view is actually not Christian anymore. Like you've now stepped outside of orthodoxy and we have to be able to do all of those. And that is really hard to do. And praise the Lord. We have the Spirit living in us who through his Word is giving us wisdom and direction and clarity on these things. Because this is not easy. This is really not easy to discern. One, where am I doing this in my own heart? And where is it worth, hey, I need to rebuke and correct in love. Like that's also part of the call of the Christian. That doesn't mean you're self righteous because you correct someone else on something. So you know, this is a man. This is not easy. That's what I'll say. Like this whole conversation I think is really tricky and really hard. And so I think we start first by asking the Lord even to expose where we are holding on to self righteousness, to show it to ourselves. And then, yeah, walk, walk in kindness, walk by the spirit with others. And, and if, if we're not displaying love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, you know, all of those fruit, it's a good sign. Maybe we're clinging to our own self righteousness at some level.

Courtney Doctor (48:47)

That's good. Well, okay. We always like to end on a fun question. So in the spirit of not priding ourselves on our own righteousness, what is a non sinful guilty pleasure that you enjoy besides deep dish pizza?

Melissa Krueger (49:05)

Everything for me is food. Courtney, do you have a good one?

Courtney Doctor (49:09)

Yeah. Hot tamales on a road trip, like right?

Melissa Krueger (49:13)

What? Okay, why is that? What are you talking about? Tell me more about that. What is I've never.

Courtney Doctor (49:20)

The candy.

Melissa Krueger (49:21)

Oh, I was picturing an actual tamale. I was like, are you stopping at, like, a quickie mark?

Courtney Doctor (49:27)

Again, like, hilarious. Note the hot tamales on a road trip like that.

Melissa Krueger (49:30)

I'll go with you on that road trip.

Courtney Doctor (49:32)

My favorite thing. Yeah, I love. I love hot tamales. But, you know.

Melissa Krueger (49:36)

Okay, do you know what mine is? Mine's a little bit bougier. Your hot tamale. I'll see your hot tamale, and I'm going to raise it with. With sizzling cinnamon jelly bellies. Those are better than the hot tamales.

Courtney Doctor (49:49)

That is debatable. And I feel like you're already prideful about that.

Melissa Krueger (49:53)

Yeah.

Courtney Doctor (49:54)

You already feel like. Yeah, you've put, like, a moral virtue on your. I am. Whatever. Because I don't even know where you can get those. I feel like mine are just so

Melissa Krueger (50:01)

much more accessible because I shop at the right stores. Courtney, if you shopped at the right stores, you'd be able to find this

Courtney Doctor (50:09)

says, well, I'm humble and shop everywhere. So I'm gonna wrap us up now. Friends, we do hope that you have been encouraged by this episode of the Deep Dish from the Gospel Coalition. If so, we hope that you will subscribe, share it with others, or leave us a comment, and we will see you next time at on the Deep Dish.

Melissa Krueger (50:32)

Hey, friends, it's Melissa Krueger here, and I'm so excited that you're listening to the Deep Dish. Want to stay connected and get even more resources for growing in your face? We've got a new newsletter for you, and we're so excited about it. When you subscribe, you'll get discussion questions for the Deep Dish episodes, memory verses, updates on what's happening with women's initiatives, as well as some of our favorite staff picks. And these are really fun. So head over to tgc.org women and sign up today. We can't wait to connect with you again. That's TGC.org women.