Rerun: Kitchen Table Counseling

Summary

The Deep Dish – Episode Summary

Podcast: The Deep Dish (The Gospel Coalition)
Episode: Rerun: Kitchen Table Counseling
Hosts: Melissa Kruger & Courtney Doctor
Date: June 11, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode, a rerun titled "Kitchen Table Counseling," focuses on the everyday, informal ways women can counsel and support one another in the local church—whether that's at a kitchen table, park bench, or during a walk. Melissa Kruger and Courtney Doctor explore what constitutes true, wise, and compassionate gospel-centered counsel between friends, what differentiates it from professional counseling, and how to both give and receive it well. With warmth and humor, the hosts underscore the importance of holding each other's struggles, joys, and sorrows with humility, confidentiality, and groundedness in God's Word.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Defining "Kitchen Table Counseling"

• Informal Yet Meaningful:

  • “It could be kitchen table counseling. It could be park bench counseling…my walking buddy counseling.” — Melissa Kruger [02:25]
  • It refers to the organic counsel given between Christian friends—distinct from formal or professional counseling, but vital in everyday discipleship and fellowship.

• Wise Counsel Is Both Truthful and Kind:

  • “We want these conversations to really be ones that point one another to Jesus…a compassion that leads us to not be truthful…[or] a truth that leads us to not be kind.” — Melissa Kruger [03:24]

• Knowing Limits:

  • Recognizing some struggles require referral to professional help, especially where self-harm or abuse is involved.

Relationship to Discipleship & Qualities to Look For

• A Subset of Discipleship:

  • Sharing life stories in trusted relationships can lead to deep self-disclosure, where the gospel must be applied gently yet honestly.

• The Four Essential Qualities:

  • “Do they know God? Do they love God? Do they know you? And do they love you?” — Courtney Doctor [07:10]
  • These form the bedrock of whose counsel we value most.

• Safe Friendships Foster Openness:

  • “Most of us are more inclined…to want them to like us. And so we miss the truth piece.” — Courtney Doctor [08:22]
  • Wise friends don’t just comfort, but challenge in love and turn friends toward Jesus and God’s Word.

Speaking Truth in Love

• Compassion and Truth Together:

  • “The compassionate thing…the line, is to be, I love you. And that’s never going to go well for you…Sin is never the answer, and to be able to hold it with this deep love for the person…their best good is always found in God and his Word.” — Melissa Kruger & Courtney Doctor [09:25–10:03]

• Real-Life Example:

  • Courtney recounts how a friend, instead of bonding over complaints about her husband, lovingly rebuked and directed her to gratitude.
    • “She spoke life to me and she rebuked me and said, ‘I think you need to go home and make a list of 20 things you’re grateful for about him.’” — Courtney Doctor [10:52]

Bearing Burdens & Confidentiality

• Bearing Burdens in Suffering and Sin:

  • Galatians 6:2 applied: “Bear one another’s burdens…” [11:03]
  • Melissa describes receiving comfort and practical help from friends after her father's medical crisis:
    • “Sometimes when you’re in suffering…they were texting me these scriptures and they actually had no idea that those scriptures were some of the very same scriptures I was reading…” — Melissa Kruger [12:06–13:10]

• Safe Spaces for Confession:

  • “When you bring something to light and it loses its power...just having that friend that was safe enough and godly enough for me to say, ‘I am really struggling with this temptation’… she carried my burden.” — Courtney Doctor [15:10]

• Confidentiality Is Key:

  • “I can hold it. And then holding it means that I don’t share it with anybody else.” — Courtney Doctor [20:03]
  • Suffering attracts curiosity (gossip), but trusted kitchen table counselors are those who never break confidence.
    • “The people I trust the most are the ones who I know are gonna hold. Let me lose it…not going to tell anyone.” — Melissa Kruger [23:51–25:02]

• Ask Permission to Share:

  • “Would it be helpful for you if I told our group of 10 on the chat what you just told me? So they can pray. Ask permission.” — Melissa Kruger [25:30]

Practical Tips for Good "Kitchen Table" Counseling

• Ask Good, Contextual Questions:

  • Instead of “How are you doing?”, try more concrete, answerable questions related to what the person is facing (e.g., details about funeral logistics after a loss).
  • “Before I go into a situation, I think, how am I not going to ask, how are you doing?... What’s a better question?” — Melissa Kruger [18:35]

• Hold the Story, Don’t One-up:

  • Avoid shifting focus with your own (possibly more dramatic) story.
  • Humorous Example: “She literally told me about a time that her kids had a pet frog and it died... My pony story is worse.” — Courtney Doctor [22:46]

• Scripture: Pray It, Don't Preach It Superficially:

  • Be wary of “Bible band aids”—automatic verse recitation that can feel trite in deep pain.

    • “It’s really easy to Romans 8:28 everything…True, so true. And at the same time, we all know sometimes that is just not what is needed in that moment.” — Melissa Kruger [27:27–27:42]

  • Instead, share how God’s Word is living for you, praying passages over the recipient, or camping on the meaning together.

• Follow Up & Accountability:

  • Especially if someone has confessed sin and asked for accountability, follow up specifically and promptly.
    • “If you can within 24 hours send a text… just to not make them feel, like, alone… Even to assure them, ‘Hey, I just want you to know I’m not going to tell anyone about this. It’s safe with me.’” — Melissa Kruger [31:44]
    • Specific accountability: “Tell me how I can…look like on these evenings, would you just text me…” — Courtney Doctor [33:46]

• Enter with Humility and Seek Input:

  • “Having the humility to be like, let me ask you what would be the best way (to help or follow up)?” — Melissa Kruger [35:59]

  • Don’t default to “let me know if I can help”—offer concrete support with specific times or options.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Every single person who has ever been born, except Jesus, goes through life simultaneously as both a sinner and someone who’s been sinned against, someone who is both a sufferer and causes the suffering of others…” — Courtney Doctor [01:32 and 04:49]
• “Their best good is always found in God and his Word… the path of the abundant life. It’s not the easy one, but it’s the good one.” — Courtney Doctor [10:03]

Challenges & Hope for Listeners

• Encouragement to Seek & Cultivate These Relationships:

  • “If you’re listening and you’re thinking, oh, I need to find somebody like that…do it. The Lord has wired us to need each other and to have people to invite them into these struggles.” — Courtney Doctor [33:46]
  • Remember: “You are not the savior. The Lord is the Shepherd… You might be a part in someone’s story, but we’re not responsible for their healing.” — Melissa Kruger [38:58]

• Closing Reflection:

  • If you could be kitchen table counseled by any saint from history, who would you pick? (Helen Roseveare and Deborah, for their relatable struggles and honest wisdom, are chosen by Melissa and Courtney respectively.) [39:24]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:25] — Definition of Kitchen Table Counseling
• [07:10] — Four Questions for Weighing Counsel
• [09:25–10:03] — On Compassionate, Truthful Counsel
• [10:52] — Example of Wise, Loving Rebuke in Marriage
• [11:03] — Galatians 6:2 and Bearing Burdens
• [12:06] — Entering Another’s Suffering — Melissa’s Story
• [15:10] — Lifting the Burden of Sin Through Confession
• [18:35] — Asking Better Questions in Crisis
• [20:03] — On Confidentiality and “Holding the Story”
• [22:46] — Avoiding "One-Upmanship" in Suffering
• [27:27–27:42] — Warning Against “Bible Band Aids”
• [31:44] — The Importance of Specific Follow-up and Accountability
• [35:59] — Humility in Asking How to Best Support
• [39:24] — Which Historical Saint Would You Choose for Kitchen Table Counsel?

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Takeaways for Listeners

• Seek to be and to find friends who blend empathy, truth, and confidentiality;
• Prepare well before entering a counseling conversation: plan good questions, pray, and ground yourself in God’s Word;
• Listen more than you speak, avoid giving quick advice or “Bible band aids;”
• Uphold confidentiality and ask permission before sharing others’ struggles even for prayer;
• Remember: you are not someone’s savior—trust God to do the healing and redeeming work.

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Tone & Style

The conversation is warm, humorous, relatable, and deeply rooted in Christian theology. Both hosts model vulnerability and practical wisdom, encouraging women to both seek out and be safe, wise, “kitchen table” counselors in their communities.

Transcript

[Courtney Docter]

Learn how Jesus and the Apostles read

[Melissa Krueger]

the Old Testament with your new Go

[Courtney Docter]

to Biblical Theology Guide, developed by leading biblical theology scholars G.K. beale and Benjamin Glad. The CSB Connecting Scripture New Testament helps

[Melissa Krueger]

all students of the Word better grasp Scripture's overarching redemption story and parallels within

[Courtney Docter]

the New Testament and promotes the underlying unity of Scripture connections between Old Testament and New Testament books.

[Melissa Krueger]

Learn [e-mail] hi friends, we're taking a little break from sending you a new episode of the Deep Dish today, because today is the first day of TGC W26 in Indianapolis. We're so excited. We want you to know that even if you aren't able to come to the conference, you can watch the live stream for free. All you have to do is go to tgc.org backslash live.

[Courtney Docter]

The live stream starts at 1pm Eastern on June 11 with a talk by Melissa on Psalm 1, and it continues with all the keynotes and a bunch of great breakout sessions we hope you'll watch. Those of us speaking would also really value your prayers.

[Melissa Krueger]

And in the meantime, if you're looking for a deep dish fix, because who doesn't want some more deep dish. This week we're replaying an episode that we did last year called Kitchen Table Counseling in the local church. We hope that that will really if you missed it, you can listen and we hope you'll enjoy it. Thanks friends.

[Courtney Docter]

Every single person who has ever been born, except Jesus, goes through life simultaneously as both a sinner and someone who's been sinned against someone who is both a sufferer and causes the suffering of others. And so we are able to enter in to each other's lives and each other's stories with the truth and the hope of the gospel. Foreign. Welcome to the Deep Dish, a podcast from the Gospel Coalition where we love having deep conversations about deep truths. I'm Courtney Docter and I'm here with my friend and co host Melissa Krueger. And today we want to talk about what we're calling Kitchen Table counseling. So let's just start. Melissa, what is Kitchen table counseling and what is it not?

[Melissa Krueger]

Yeah, it could be kitchen table counseling. It could be park bench counseling.

[Courtney Docter]

Exactly.

[Melissa Krueger]

It could be my walking buddy counseling. And so I think what we're really talking about here is kind of that counsel we give to one another and the special thing that can happen in friendship and relationships where we start telling our stories to one another. And those can have grief, they can have sorrow, they can have have real hurts in them. And we, as we enter into these conversations with one another, we start giving each other counsel. And, and let's be clear, that can be good counsel or that can be bad counsel. And, and you know, we of course want to be women who are giving wise counsel across our kitchen tables and who can enter into these conversations, though in a way that is both true and compassionate and yet not a compassion that leads us to not be truthful.

[Courtney Docter]

Right.

[Melissa Krueger]

And not a truth that leads us to not be kind. You know, so we want these conversations to really be ones that point one another to Jesus. And we want to say at the beginning, there is a place for professional counseling. This conversation is about just lay level counseling. And I like to say, like we're looking for, to become the type of women who people want to share their hurts and hardships and struggles with and griefs with, where that feels like, oh, I can go to that person and I know I'll be heard and challenged appropriately and reminded of the truth I need to hear. Yeah, that's to me, the best kind of kitchen table counseling. But we also sometimes in kitchen table counseling say, hey, this, you know, if we see things like self harm or maybe the potential for self harm or hear of abuse in the past, we might be the friend who's helping them get to the place they need to, to get even, even more specific type of help that we, it's, it's also part of knowing your limits in kitchen table counseling. So, so we want to say that at the beginning, this is, you know, we're entering in with people, but we also know there is really a place for professional counseling, but we want to do it as best we can. So. So on that thought, how is it different than like a discipleship or mentoring relationship?

[Courtney Docter]

Yeah, I think it's a type of discipleship. I think, I think of it as sort of a subset of discipleship because when you're in these relationships that you're sharing your life, you're sharing your story, you're sharing your joys and your sorrows with each other. All of our stories contain all of these pieces, right? Suffering, sorrow, sin. And as we, as we walk with people and we trust them, we self disclose and people self disclose to us. And, and this is the environment where a lot of times that's the first place that it is something is disclosed. Like you, you're in a discipleship relationship or you're in a friendship, and eventually enough trust is built that you feel like you can tell that person either something that has happened in your life, something that is happening, and that can be your own sin, the sin of someone else, your own suffering, the suffering of someone else. I say it all the time. But we, Every single person who has ever been born, except Jesus, goes through life simultaneously as both a sinner and someone who's been sinned against, someone who is both a sufferer and causes the suffering of others. And so, and so, as we're having these robust relationships, which is what we're supposed to be doing, these things bubble to the surface. And so we are able to enter in to each other's lives and each other's stories with the truth and the hope of the gospel. And so I think of it as a subset of discipleship.

[Melissa Krueger]

Yeah. So what, when, what makes you willing to go there with someone like, I mean, you know, I know you've got a ton of sin. I mean, and it's true. I'm totally kidding. We all do. Like, we all. So what does create a space? What are the. Maybe. What are the qualities of someone? Like, when you think about that first person that you were able to say, hey, I have this in my past, and maybe that means I'm never supposed to teach the Bible. Maybe that means I can't be in leadership. Maybe, you know, the things that might hold us back. Who, what, what qualities are you looking for when you open up to a woman like that?

[Courtney Docter]

Yeah. I told my kids when they were little, I said, if you're going to listen to someone's advice, I would, I would ask these four questions. Do they know God? Do they love God? Do they know you and do they love you? Because if any one of those pieces are missing, it doesn't mean that we don't accept counsel from those people. But I think we weight it differently. Because if somebody has all four of those pieces, that's a powerful combination to listen to their advice. Because they're going to be for you, it's going to be based in knowledge. They're going to be, you know, bringing the truth of God and his word to bear on the situation. And so those are, those are really important. But then I think about those friendships that they're safe. They're, you know, that that person is going to be. They're first going to turn to the Lord in prayer. They're going to kind of what you started with, they're not going to fall off on the side of either. You know, if we want to pit truth and love against each other, they're not going to fall off into the ditch on one side or the other and be all just like, well, let me just tell you, you know, you're a sinner, and that's why you're in this. But they're going to speak the truth in love. But they're also. I think what most of us are more inclined is really point people to ourselves and. And want them to like us. And so we. We miss the truth piece. And so.

[Melissa Krueger]

So this. Why are you talking about me like that, Courtney? I don't like it. This is not. Let's counsel Melissa about her sin patterns.

[Courtney Docter]

Right.

[Melissa Krueger]

But yeah, it's.

[Courtney Docter]

So I love all these interventions we're having on the deep dish.

[Melissa Krueger]

Why are they all for me? But I do. Because it's so tempting just to be concerned about how that person's thinking about you in the moment. I know. I want them to feel loved or, you know, and sometimes they need to feel rebuked. I mean, like, if they're coming to you and saying, no, I'm convinced the love of my life is not my husband. It's this guy at work. Well, the compassionate thing is, is not to just be like, I agree. Right. That's actually not compassion.

[Courtney Docter]

Right.

[Melissa Krueger]

The compassionate thing, the line. Yeah. Is to be, I love you. And that's never going to go well for you.

[Courtney Docter]

Yeah.

[Melissa Krueger]

Right now it looks so enticing. But the end of that road is death. And I don't know how it's going to come, but it's going to be full of pain and brokenness, and sin is never the answer, you know, and to be able to hold it with this deep love for the person, like you said, and yet this deep longing for their best good, which is always found in God's word.

[Courtney Docter]

Yep. And say that again. Say those two things again, because that's really important, Melissa.

[Melissa Krueger]

Oh, can you repeat them?

[Courtney Docter]

That their best good is always found in God and his Word. Like, that is the path of flourishing. That is the path of the abundant life. It's not the easy one, but it's the good one.

[Melissa Krueger]

Yeah, that's right. And so to me, that's the best kitchen table counseling is those women. So for me, it's sometimes those women I trust that they've been in the Word more than, like, writing their own advice columns, you know, like, they're being shaped by God's word. It's infusing their brain with, and it just overflows from their hearts. And so I always want to find those women who I know are going to give me truth and law, and they love me. I think that's. That's really the substance of a good kitchen table.

[Courtney Docter]

Yeah, I had a friend like that in my 20s and I was complaining pretty significantly about my husband and I. Everything in me just wanted her to enter in and bond. And we've all been in that situation where it's a little tempting to bond with that person over this. And she was just, I mean, she was, she spoke life to me and she rebuked me and said, I think you need to go home and make a list of 20 things you're grateful for about him, you know, and that I ended up having so much more respect for her and I felt so much safer with her because I knew she was going to speak the truth to me. And when, when we fail to speak the truth to each other, like you said, we're. It's the least loving thing we can do. It's just self protective and. But it's hard to kind of cultivate and curate that ability within yourself to speak the truth in love. So let me ask you, Galatians 6:2 says, bear one another's burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ. And I think that's what we're talking about here, bearing each other's burdens and speaking the truth of Christ. So can you tell me about a time that you were really burdened and someone came along and kitchen table counseled you, helped carry that load. And then how did it, how did it help and why did it matter?

[Melissa Krueger]

It's probably been now about 18 years since this one happened, so it's been a while. My father had a heart attack and then when he fell, he hit his head and so he had a brain bleed. And so the heart. We didn't know about the brain bleed, so the heart attack was actually really easily handled. My mom was like, don't even come, he's fine. They're putting the stent in. And then the brain bleed turned out to be a nightmare. We got. When my brother and I got to the hospital, the neurosurgeon came out and he was basically like, if he makes it, we're going to take it minute by minute. And then there was no hope that he would even cognitively be himself again. And I had three little kids at the time. In fact, I was still nursing. And I can remember something my friends did. They would just send me scripture. So I, I actually didn't even have. Sometimes when you're in suffering like that, you can't get around the kitchen table with someone. But, but they were texting me these scriptures and they actually had no idea that those scriptures were some of the very same scriptures I was reading in, like, my. In my daily life. No idea that. That these things were happening. But I can just remember some of them who had lost parents and. And they just knew what I was walking through or who had been in the hospital. People who had done hospital stays, new. I can remember some of them would just come. They would just bring food, because you don't even know, oh, I don't know how to eat in the hospital. Like, they just knew how to enter in physically and then with compassionate care without having to tell their story. I think some of them would just. I remember one person just sitting there and saying, let's just pray. But. But you knew they knew what you were going through. But they didn't burden me with what they'd been through. They just were there. And so sometimes I think in that immediate grief, we bear burdens with someone in physical ways and through prayer. And then later, as that story went on for a lot, many years, you know, because it took him a long time to recover. Just being able to sit with some older women who could sit with me and say, okay, how are you going to. This is called. They would actually named it for me. They said, this is called the sandwich problem. You've got young kids on one end and older parents on the other and just giving me names for understanding what I was feeling. These pulls to taking care of my young kids and these pulls toward loving my parents. Well, and they just got it. And they could just say, okay, yeah, you're gonna be giving 100%, and it's never gonna feel like enough. But just the fact that they understood and entered in was so hugely helpful for me in that season where I felt like there just wasn't enough of me to be the daughter I wanted to be and the mom I wanted, the friend I wanted to be was out the door. The wife I wanted to be felt out the door. But those women just stood and. And were there and could understand. And that was huge for me. Sometimes just naming what you're going through is really huge. What about you?

[Courtney Docter]

That's. Well, it's really beautiful, like, to see how somebody was able to counsel you through your own confusion and grief and your kind of conflict of interest, and that is so necessary. I was thinking, actually about a sin pattern and a temptation that I was facing and a friend that. It was. It was when I finally got the courage to confess it to this friend, that it was like the burden was lifted. I mean, there I have. I feel like over and over in my life, I've experienced that where you bring something to light and it loses its power. And that was just having that friend that was safe enough and godly enough for me to say like this is, I am really struggling with this just temptation and this, you know, kind of sin pattern in my own heart and mind. That was really. And it was. She pray and it was just the, it was the. She beared my burden bare bore. I don't know, she did something, she carried my burden. I'm not quite sure what word I'm supposed to use, but. And it, it really lightened it, it completely changed how. I didn't feel oppressed by it. I didn't feel under the weight of it. And you know, that's just a freeing thing. And so as we're talking about those people that are, are safe and they offer the wise counsel, what is it about them? And then how can we become those women that others want when they are burdened? It's our kitchen tables that they want to come sit at. Because I want to be that woman.

[Melissa Krueger]

Today's episode of Deep Dish is sponsored by Crossway, publisher of Stand In How Reverence Transforms our Worship in Our Lives, author Laura Storey seeks to lead Christians in scriptural reverential worship all seven days of the week. Sharing her 20 years of experience as a worship leader and award winning recording artist, she clarifies what worship is, what it isn't, and what's at stake without it. This experience accessible book leads readers in rich worship that reflects who God is rather than who we are. Pick up a copy of Stand In Awe wherever books are sold or visit Crossway.org standinaw to learn how to get 30% off with a free Crossway plus account. Yeah, yeah, I think the things you already said were so good. They love God, they love his word, they love you like that. That's a great place to begin. I just think that little outline was so good for anyone to think about. When we think about these type of women. I really think learning to ask good questions can help immeasurably in these type of conversations. And so I was thinking about this, like, how do we do this? Let's say someone comes back from, you know, they, they've lost someone they love and they're coming back from the funeral home. I, I'll be honest, I think an overwhelming question is, how are you doing? I think that's really hard to answer. So I try to stick in the category of hey, what did the funeral director tell you? How's tomorrow gonna look? What's the process? Just asking them the questions. Because what you're doing in that moment when they're just telling you what's going on, then you can say, okay, so it sounds like it's going to be really busy from 2 to 3. Would it be helpful if I got someone, you know, you can enter in in that way. But I think going back to concrete things that they can talk about rather than how they're feeling when. When. Especially when there's been a grief or a loss, I think that's helpful. So, really, sometimes before I go into a situation, I think, how am I not going to ask, how are you doing? Like, I'm in my car thinking through what's a better question? Because that's what's so easy. I mean, like, if I'm, oh, how you doing? How are you? Like, I mean. But I. I've been asked that before, and I'm like, I have no idea. Or someone asked me, how can I pray for you? I'm like, I don't. I don't. I don't know. I can't.

[Courtney Docter]

And. Because the answer is, simultaneously, I'm absolutely gutted and I'm being held. Like, I'm. I'm fine, and I'm, like, wrecked at the same time. And so. Yeah, that's so good that. Yeah. Learning and thinking ahead of time about those questions. I really love that.

[Melissa Krueger]

Yeah. Yeah. What about you?

[Courtney Docter]

What.

[Melissa Krueger]

What has made you. Yeah. As you enter into situations with people, how. How have you learned to enter in? I mean, you've done women's ministry for years, so how have you learned to enter in to those situations? Whether it's grief or. Yeah, these are all really different situations that we might be called to counsel. And. And we all. We would both say, start with prayer on that, drive over with prayer.

[Courtney Docter]

Yes. And pray the whole time. Well, my natural proclivity is, as you well know, to jump in with advice. I mean, I'm like, somebody's coming to me for, like, counsel. They want my words. Right? That's. They want my words and they want my thoughts on this. And so I just. I'm almost, like, on the edge of my seat. Used to be maybe I'm changing in this. Like, oh, why are you still talking? Because you're here because you want my words. You know, you want my advice on this. And so realizing that there's actually a lot of therapy that happens just by listening and by sitting and being that space to. I have friends that are counselors, and they Talk about holding someone's story. And I really love that of, okay, kind of that invitation. You can keep telling me this. I can hold it. Like, I can hold it. And. And then holding it means that I. I don't share it with anybody else. So I don't. You know, I try to navigate my own tendency to want to speak into it immediately. Like you said, continue to ask it questions and then be willing to sit in. There are some situations that I don't know what to say. And so be willing to sit in those spaces that it's okay for both of you not to know, but just to sit in it and be really sad about it and then ask the Lord to step in. I mean, the number of times in my prayer that I say, lord, I don't even know how to pray, but I know your son and your spirit are interceding right now. I bank on that. I go to that. And so even going back to those first four things, the ones that are really in my power to do, in my control, I can be a woman who knows and loves God, that by his grace, by his spirit. But I can keep knowing more about him, which makes me a better person to come to because I know Him. And then I can work on my own stuff to, you know, where I want to jump in with advice or I want to jump in your. When you said jump in with your story, man, don't we all do that? And when you're the one hurting, it drives me. I'm just like, I'm. This wasn't about you. Why are we talking about you now?

[Melissa Krueger]

Have you seen that SNL skit?

[Courtney Docter]

No. What are they?

[Melissa Krueger]

One upper. She's always one upping like, I don't even know when it was from. I'm probably wrong, but it's always like, oh, will you hurt your pinky? Oh, yeah, well, my whole arm got cut off. Yeah, it's this like, okay, everybody has a story. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Courtney Docter]

Everybody has a story.

[Melissa Krueger]

And it makes you feel like, okay, can I share this one? When someone kind of one ups you,

[Courtney Docter]

you're like, I think I've told you the time when. When we had a pony that died. My kid's pony died. And my friend, I went to her and I was talking to her, and she literally told me about a time that her kids had a pet frog and it died. Now, I hope everybody listening understands that those are not the same thing. They are not.

[Melissa Krueger]

I think that's really insensitive of you. And we're going to get letters from Frog love.

[Courtney Docter]

You lost your frog. I'm really sorry, but my pony story is worse.

[Melissa Krueger]

Okay. The other thing, though, that you said I thought was really important, and I. I don't want to forget this, and, you know, my brain. I'm apt to forget so was the. You listen and you. You don't tell it to other people afterwards. Yeah. Let's. Let's talk about this for just a minute. Suffering is like a magnet for people. Everyone wants to be in the know. Oh, are they at the hospital? Where are they? Oh. Oh. How is she doing? You. It's almost okay.

[Courtney Docter]

It is. Would you pray for her?

[Melissa Krueger]

It is concerned, but then it's always that Courtney. I don't think she's doing very well. I mean, you know, this has been. I mean. Yeah. And it can become a gossip mill of other people's stories and their suffering. And so the people I trust the most are the ones who I know are gonna hold. Let me lose it.

[Courtney Docter]

Yep. Yeah.

[Melissa Krueger]

Let me just have a moment where I throw up my hands and I'm like, I don't. You know, I. I don't know if God loves me right now. Something that's completely untrue, like, I know is untrue theologically and is safe enough for me to say. And. And I trust that Courtney is not going to be like, well, and like, she's gonna get our co worker. And Melissa. Yeah. She's just having a rough time. I don't know how she's. Because what do you. You leave feeling like my story was, you know, your lunchtime conversation, and then you felt even more guarded and your walls are up more. So I think sometimes it guises itself as concern, but we're really gossiping.

[Courtney Docter]

Yes.

[Melissa Krueger]

Yes. So when you said that, I was like, yeah, that. That. That's one of the most important things a kitchen table counselor can do.

[Courtney Docter]

Yes. It's just so glad you highlighted that. If anybody has to start a conversation with, please don't tell her I told you this. No. Don't put the burden of keeping the confidence on the next person that you're telling it to. You be the one that doesn't tell anybody. Yeah. Confidential safe spaces are really valuable, aren't they?

[Melissa Krueger]

Yeah.

[Courtney Docter]

Because the opposite of it is devastating.

[Melissa Krueger]

Yeah. And even. Even things that might seem simple, like, I think it's really helpful. Let's say there's a chain of people who are praying. Hey, would you. Would it be helpful for you if I told our 10. Our group of 10 on the chat what you just told me? So they can pray. Ask permission. Because I do know for me, in that story I told earlier about my dad, I was exhausted telling people. So I told one of my friends, I said, could you just tell everybody, like, what the medical stuff? Because there's just a lot of details and you get weary of telling some of that. And so that's totally fine, but just take the time, you know, different people. One thing I've learned. This is maybe another thing. Different people are different. Took me 30 years to realize that. But. So some person might be totally fine that you shared and might be offended you didn't share. Oh, why didn't you tell them all to pray for this? But another person might keep things, especially medical things, a lot closer to the chest. So I think. I think we need to be aware.

[Courtney Docter]

Ask permission. I really love that. Okay, well, so on one hand, we don't want to just jump into advice giving. We don't want to tell them our story. So these are things we've said don't do. Don't give advice to, you know, over, like, just quickly and. And don't jump into telling them your own version of the story. But also talk about. We want to give them scripture. We want to give them the truth of God's word. But it can also be a timing issue and a wisdom issue, because I don't know if you've ever sat with somebody who just puts a little quick band aid on everything with. And the band aid is a Bible verse, so.

[Melissa Krueger]

Bible, band aids.

[Courtney Docter]

Bible band aids. So. So what are some passages that you found really helpful in providing counsel? And what are some times that. How can we. How can we become women who don't offer Bible band aids and offer scripture at the same time?

[Melissa Krueger]

Yeah, Yeah, I. I think that is a really good question because it's really easy to. Romans 8, 28, everything.

[Courtney Docter]

Yep.

[Melissa Krueger]

You know? Well, I know in all things, God is working for the good, you know, so he's working this for good.

[Courtney Docter]

And that is true.

[Melissa Krueger]

True, so true. And at the same time, we all know sometimes that is just not what is needed in that moment. And so one thing I really try to do. I don't know, I'm sure you have good ideas on this. Is let the Scriptures guide my prayers for them. So my own time in the Word. And I found this to be amazing because I can say, hey, I was in 1st Chronicles today. So it's not the typical. They know who's reading 1st Chronicles anyway. She must be honest about this. You know, I was. And I saw this passage and you know, it says, hey, you're not going to have to fight this battle. The Lord will fight it for you. I'm going to pray those words for you today in your sin struggle that the Lord, you're going to just stand and see the salvation of the Lord and you're going to just see him provide for you. I feel like, you know, when we say, I'm praying this for you, or rather than, you know, I don't know, like something that, that might just seem trite or, or an easy answer or if someone's anxious, hey, I'm really praying. I am praying that the peace of. The peace of God would guard your heart and mind. No.

[Courtney Docter]

Yeah. The piece of God that transcends all understanding will guard your heart and mind in Christ Jesus. But you're the one that wrote the Bible study on Philipp. No, I need those verses all the time. That's why I know them, because I desperately need every part of that.

[Melissa Krueger]

Yeah. What about you? How do you engage scripture in these and yet not, you know, not make it a Bible band aid?

[Courtney Docter]

Not make it a Bible band aid? Well, I think that that does take wisdom and finesse. I really liked what you said about teaching, taking those. The two things, you know, that it was fresh, that because you were in the Word. And that does happen when you're spending time in the Word, because God is actually sovereign and he cares about you and he cares about that person. And the number of times that I have been in a passage that was complete, that it just brought it to mind and, you know, that's like the living, active Word of God. We read it through the lens of what we're going through. And part of what we're going through is what our friends are going through. It's why corporate worship is so important, because when you're singing those songs and you look over and you, you know the story of the person three people down from you, you. You sing the song differently. You can sing the song for them. You can stand and, and hold their hope in that moment, hold their comfort in the moment. Anyway, I'm digressing. But the idea that it's fresh and that you pray it, I think that that's really significant. And then there are times just to say, I don't want this to sound right, like I actually mean this as, as something solid to hold on to, because it is. And so, you know, he will never leave you or forsake you. He actually is working all things together for good. And so let's talk about what that means let's redefine what good is. Let's talk about how God could be doing that. So. So maybe even camp on the verses for a little bit longer and wrestle through them rather than kind of throwing them from a distance. And then I think also learning how to pray those bigger prayers, like what you're talking about. It's one reason I love Nancy Guthrie's book, I'm praying for you. Now, that's not so much kitchen table counseling. That's if somebody's going through really an illness or suffering, but you can give it to people and it teaches them how to pray Scripture. And really bigger prayers like, use this to conform Christ in me. Use this to strengthen and anchor my faith further in the gospel than it was prior to whatever the, the struggle or the suffering is that you're dealing with. And so I think the only way we do that is with the word of God.

[Melissa Krueger]

Yeah. And I think another thing I'm also hearing from you, too, you might be having that over the kitchen counter, but then follow up. So I think this is something important that we haven't talked about. So we've talked about some things not to do, but I think one thing that's really important to you, particularly, like, if someone is sharing a sin struggle with you, and if they ask for accountability, give it to them. Meaning, you know, if you, if, if a woman in your church comes and says, hey, I'm really struggling with pornography, you can assure her of God's grace, you can assure her of God's forgiveness. And then remember, you might be the only one she's ever shared that struggle with. And that is its own burden on you. But follow up with her because it took a risk for her to share. And in fact, when someone shares a sin struggle, I think it's really, if you can within 24 hours to send a text to send something to say, hey, thank you for being brave enough to share that with me. I want you to know I'm here for you. I want you to know Jesus loves you and I'm praying for you, you know, just to not make them feel, like, alone. I don't know if you've ever had a situation where I've had situations where I shared something personal or deep in my heart with someone, and then I'm like, what do they think of me now? Oh, my goodness, am I crazy? You know, should I have done that? Was that okay? And, you know, and even to assure them, hey, I just want you to know I'm not going to tell anyone about this. It's safe with me, you know, because don't we all wonder that, like, oh, is she now do all this woman now know that I strive this struggle or whatever it might be? And so I think that confidentiality is important. Telling them you'll keep it confidential is important, you know, and following up. And if they're actually asking for accountability, say, hey, I'm gonna ask you on Sunday, how was this weekend? Because I know this. The weekend's a hard time for you when you're watching TV shows you shouldn't.

[Courtney Docter]

Yep. Well, I had a friend that asked me and. And we got really specific with it because she said, this is what I'm struggling with, and this is when I struggle with it. And so I said, okay, tell me how I can. Like, she's asking me for accountability, so tell me what that looks like. Like. And it was that. It was like, on these evenings, would you just text me and just tell me, remind me that you're thinking of me and you're praying for me. And, you know, it's. But she was involved in the process of kind of her own healing and. And victory over sin patterns. And so that was really beautiful. So. Okay, I want to repeat a few things that we've said that I think are worth repeating as we're. Because if. If you're listening and you're thinking, oh, I need to find somebody like that all. I mean, both of us would just say, do it. There is. The Lord has wired us to need each other and to have people to invite them into these struggles. And remember, that person's not your savior. They might fail you in this. They might not live up to every expectation that you have. And that's okay because we're. We're doing this together. But if you're the person that somebody reaches out to, then, you know, we've said not to overshare your own story. Don't just give good advice. Take them to the Lord in prayer. But even if in your own heart you start feeling sort of maybe morally superior because that's not your struggle, then I would say that's a time that the Lord is allowing you to be a kitchen table counselor. But it's going to be for the good of the other person, but also for your sanctification. The Lord's going to be working out something in you and bringing humility to. You have to remind yourself that. That there is no one righteous. No, not one. And for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. And so we are Fellow sinners and sufferers, walking with other sinners and sufferers, and so to enter those relationships with tenderness, care. But humility.

[Melissa Krueger]

Yeah.

[Courtney Docter]

In all of it.

[Melissa Krueger]

I think one thing you talked about just a minute ago that I wanted to highlight again is part of that humility. I think you said, your friend said, or maybe you said to your friend, what would accountability look like? Having the humility to be like, let me ask you what, what would be the best way? And, and I think that's a really important thing in kitchen table counseling. Hey, what would be the best way for me to follow up with you? Would you rather me is a hug at church? Okay. Or do you not want me to do that? Because people might be like, why are they hugging it? Would you rather me email you? Would you rather me text you and then be like, hey, I'd love to send you a verse every now and again? Do you want me to do that? Like, is that helpful? Like, I think taking the time to humbly say, I'm not you. What? In this season of grief, you know, and maybe giving a multiple choice answers because sometimes they're like, I don't know. I mean, that's me. I'm, I'm a terrible. I don't know her. I don't know what would be helpful. But when someone says, hey, can I bring you a meal on Tuesday or Thursday or Saturday? Okay, Saturday's better, Right? Rather than can I bring you a meal sometime?

[Courtney Docter]

Right.

[Melissa Krueger]

Like sometimes, oh, I don't know. I mean, sure, maybe I don't know when that would be. So let me know if I can

[Courtney Docter]

do anything to help kind of thing. And they're like, okay, that's so unspecific that it's not helpful.

[Melissa Krueger]

Yes. So I think those taking the time to, you know, think about the questions we're going to ask and then how are we going to respond after. So it's not just what happens at the kitchen table, you know, it's what happens before we come to it. It's what happens after we come to it. And it's what's happening in our own life as we're walking with Jesus and remembering how much we need him. Because the grace that we've received is what's going to overflow, you know, in, in a gentle but loving rebuke. And we're still going to offer it because we know we needed it at times. Or just the ability to sit and weep with a friend who's in grief and not feel like we've got to solve it. And I think that's what you were really getting to earlier when you were talking about, you know, like, the giving of advice. We want to solve it. And I can remember one season. I mean, it was really hard, and I felt like a few people in my life just wanted to solve me. Yeah. And I was like, I just. I need to just be allowed to lament that. Lament's a part of the Christian life. And the Lord will bring us out, and we can trust. The Lord will heal. We don't have to be the agents of healing. We can be part of that process, but we can also know, and I think this is maybe even a last hope. We can give people. The Lord is the shepherd of a sheep. We might be a part in someone's story, but we're also not responsible for the healing that happens or even pointing them to the. They might reject our rebuke. They might reject us because we. We said, hey, I don't think this is going to go well for you. But the Lord's writing the story in their life, and we can. We can trust in him in our limited part in this person's story. As you said earlier, we don't have to be the savior.

[Courtney Docter]

That's. That's a good word. Okay, well, before we close, I want to ask you if you could sit at your kitchen table or someone else's kitchen table with one of the saints who has gone before us, and you would be kitchen table counseled. Who. Who would you choose?

[Melissa Krueger]

You're gonna laugh at who I would choose. I would choose because we've been reading Count It All Joy. So I was thinking about this. I would wanna sit down with Helen Roseveare. And the reason why, if you read that little book, Count It All Joy. What I love about Helen is she is so quick to say how she didn't get it at first.

[Courtney Docter]

I know.

[Melissa Krueger]

So she makes me feel like, oh, she's human. She didn't just count it all Joy every time something horrible happened, yet she walked faithfully with the Lord, and she. She fought for joy in it. But what about you? Who would you. Who would you wanna sit down with?

[Courtney Docter]

This probably won't surprise you. Deborah. I want to sit down with the judge.

[Melissa Krueger]

The judge, like the Deborah.

[Courtney Docter]

The Deborah. The Deborah. That's exactly. Yeah. I want to. I want. I want to know. I want to know more. Or maybe. Maybe it would be JL the 10th peg person.

[Melissa Krueger]

Like, I just want to know. I think you like the people who will give you the stern rebuke. Courtney.

[Courtney Docter]

I know I know it really, it's very on brand for me that is that that all plays out very well. Well, okay. I this conversation is significant because, because this kind of conversation and this kind of relationship is really important that we are all engaging in this type of robust, sharing our stories, sharing our struggles, speaking truth to each other kind of relationship. And so, yeah, thank you. And we hope that you've enjoyed this episode of the Deep Dish from the Gospel Coalition and that something has been helpful and spurred you on in your own life. If that is true, we would love for you to like it and subscribe to it or leave a comment, even consider supporting the work of TGC so we can make more content like this. But thank you for joining us and we will see you next time on the Deep dish.

[Melissa Krueger]

Hey, friends, it's Melissa Krueger here and I'm so excited that you're listening to the Deep Dish. Wanna stay connected and get even more resources for growing in your faith? We've got a new newsletter for you and we're so excited about it. When you subscribe, you'll get discussion questions for the Deep Dish episodes, memory verses, updates on what's happening with women's initiatives, as well as some of our favorite staff picks. And these are really fun. So head over to tgc.org women and sign up today. We can't wait to connect with you again. That's TGC.org women.