← The Deep Dish
The Deep Dish
Romans 8 Deserves a Deep Dive
00:45:19
Melissa Kruger and Courtney Doctor talk with Trillia Newbell about how to apply to our lives the rich promises found in Romans 8.
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- [00:00]
Melissa Krueger
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- [01:28]
Courtney Docter
Past before I knew the Lord. And I said, I don't. I, you know, I'm kind of ashamed. I don't want to talk about it. And he goes, well, do you not believe Romans 8:1? He's like a teenager at the time. And it was, it was life changing for me, that question. It was like, I do actually believe it. And you're right, there's freedom.
- [01:50]
Trillia Newbell
Hi friends. Welcome to the Deep Dish, a podcast from the Gospel Coalition where we love to have deep conversations about deep truths. I'm Melissa Krueger and I'm here with my co host Courtney Docter. And today we are thrilled to be joined by our friend Trillia Newbell. We're so glad to have you today for this pot, for this discussion.
- [02:12]
Courtney Docter
Thanks, Trulia. We really are so excited that you are here. And you guys probably know Trilia already. You've seen her at some of our conferences or maybe you've read one of her many, many books. There were so many things that we could have invited Trilia to come on and talk about on the Deep Dish and. But what we decided to do was to do a deep dive into one chapter of the Bible in the hopes that it will create in you a greater love of this incredibly Beautiful passage, Romans 8. Trilia has written an entire study on this chapter alone called if God is for Us. And that will be in the show notes, a link to that. It's a phenomenal study. But we're excited for this conversation. Trilia.
- [02:56]
Trillia Newbell
Thank you.
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Unknown Speaker
I'm so excited to be here.
- [02:58]
Trillia Newbell
I'm, I'm so excited because both of you, I have been both of your friends, you have been my friends while you were both working on Roman studies. Like, I remember Trulia talking to you about this study in Romans 8 when you were writing it. And then Courtney wrote a study on the whole book of Romans. And so for me, this is like selfish Bible study time with Trilia and Courtney. And so if you're, if you're listening today, I do encourage you. Open up Romans 8, read it. You know, as you're listening along, maybe, maybe even if you're listening on a podcast somewhere, stop, go listen to Romans 8 and then come back because I think that's what we're going to be in during this conversation. And so I, I kind of feel like this is like our first little Bible study together on what has been called one of the highlight chapters of the whole Bible. I mean, that there is so much good truth in this chapter and we get to dig into these rich mine, these rich jewels in some sense in this conversation. So, Trilia, let me ask you to begin with. What drew you to Romans 8? Why do a Bible study on this chapter in the middle of the book?
- [04:11]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, well, you kind of just answered that question for me because it's so rich. There's so much truth in one chapter. And as I have read the book of Romans, I kind of pause and, and sit in Romans 8 anytime I read it. And Romans 8 is about the Holy Spirit. It's about suffering, it's about prayer. It's about there's no condemnation, about enduring with the Lord, about God never leaving nor forsaken. There's so much in there that I thought, wouldn't it be interesting if we just sat there for six weeks and, and learned and really dove into the book? Now, I am glad that Courtney has written the book for the whole book because one of the things that I encourage people to do and I lead them to do is to read the whole book before you sit in Romans 8, I think that's really important. And so I encourage people to do that. Do use Courtney's book to go through the whole thing, but then sit there and roll because there's so much richness in it.
- [05:25]
Trillia Newbell
So, yeah, if you're looking for two studies to do back to back, these would be great. You could just combine them, you know, do the overview and then dig deep into this one. And I love what you said, you know, this one begins, there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Why is this such a foundational place to begin?
- [05:46]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, well, if you look at Romans 1, the, the whole book starts out with the gospel, right? So Romans 1:16. I'll just read it. And I would say, and I believe Tim Keller and other scholars would say that this is the theme of Romans for I am not ashamed of the Gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it, the righteousness of God is revealed from faith. For faith as it is written, the righteous shall live by faith. And then if you keep going, you just see Paul writing and helping us understand the gospel, how Jesus is the better Adam, how, how we're to live by the Spirit, how there's, there's just one thing after another throughout that we, we. We see the gospel being explained. And so if we, if, if we don't get that first, we're not going to understand there's no condemnation. So we have to understand that. That we have to understand that we are now put right with God through faith and have peace with Him. We have to understand that. We have to understand that there is nothing in us that can make us right before the Lord, that God has done that through Jesus and that we can be alive to Christ. So all of that is in the first seven chapters.
- [07:24]
Trillia Newbell
That's right. That's right. And Paul does such a wonderful job in Romans you have, starting with, hey, it's not. There's not no condemnation because you're great. Romans 1 opens up. Nope, you're not great. There's not. It's not that you're free from condemnation because Abraham was great. No, that didn't work either, you know, and, and, and yet. And then he just in such a beautiful way lays out the gospel and then he, he enters with these beautiful words. It's like this whole turn, you know, in case you're worried, there's now no condemnation. And so Courtney, let me ask you, for a woman who feels guilt and shame A lot. You know, who's wrestling with that? How can these words be a real bomb? Because, you know, we can hear it, you know, as truly as saying you. Even just all this beautiful theology that's laid out in Romans, how does it meet me at my kitchen table when I just yelled at my whole family again and acted like there maybe should be condemnation or we're condemning ourselves even.
- [08:26]
Courtney Docter
Well, I don't think we can move past the beautiful theology to get to the balm. I think the balm is found in the beautiful theology. And so just what Trilia was saying. So this is the first verse in the eighth chapter. But what Paul has said up until this point is he kind of, yeah, he gave us in 1, 16 and 17. Like, this is what I'm going to be talking about. And then it immediately goes into, the wrath of God is being revealed against unrighteousness and wickedness. And you're like, oh. And then he's like, and you Gentiles are unrighteous and wicked, and you Jews, Jews are unrighteous and wicked and everybody. And you're supposed to be being like, okay, well, then the wrath of God is being revealed against those that are unrighteous, that are not right with God, like you said, Julia. And so. And then he just, like, brings it home in chapter three. And he's like, no one's righteous. No, not one. Like, it's just like. And so you're kind of like, oh, well, I'm not. I'm not righteous. I'm not right with God. And the wrath of God is being revealed against those people. So where's the good news? So it's a. It's a legal standing before God. And then in 3, 21, he's like, but now it kills me every time a righteousness from God has been revealed. And it is for you through faith in Christ, like, it is the righteousness of Christ. So how did God. I mean, it's. It is the dilemma in Scripture. It is the dilemma that the entire story of Scripture is about, is that the. A righteous God cannot dwell in the midst of the unrighteous, but he longs to dwell with his people. And so he somehow he will never become unrighteous. So he has to make us righteous. And so when he says in Romans 3, 21, I've done that. I have sent my righteous Son in whom you can be united and you will be. Be made righteous, that is justification. And so when you get to 8, 1, and it starts off with. With, there is therefore now no condemnation That's a legal term. That's in, that's in a court of law. You're not going to be condemned. You're not going to stand before the judge if you're in Christ and be condemned for anything. And so the balm, the comfort, the hope in that is that if I've been united to Christ, his perfect righteousness is what is going to be that what the Father sees. And so, so I, we really do have to go through the theology of what righteousness and justification and condemnation are to get to this deep truth and balm that we can cling to. So when I remember one of my sons saying to me one time, I was talking, talking about kind of my past before I knew the Lord. And I said, I don't. I, you know, I'm kind of ashamed. I don't want to talk about it. And he goes, well, well, do you not believe? Romans 8:1. He's like a teenager at the time, that there is therefore now no condom. And it was, it was life changing for me, that question. It was like, I do actually believe it. And you're right, there's freedom. There's freedom in it. I don't, I, yeah, I am a new creation and I can stand in that. And so, yeah, I just think that the balm is so deep. But we have to know why it is.
- [11:31]
Unknown Speaker
Yes. Can I add one thing? I would just encourage that person who is sitting at your table and you are full on condemned one. If we confess our sin, he is faithful and just to forgive us and to purify us. So he is changing us. It's a good thing that you recognize when, if it's sin and you have not confessed it, confess it before the Lord, confess it to your friends and, and repent, turn, change the Lord, he forgives. So one, you don't have to stand in condemnation. And that guilt of sin, if you, if that's what is holding you back from receiving grace, it may be that, oh, you just haven't, you haven't asked for it. And then the other one is to preach the gospel to yourself. That's something that Jerry Bridges coined and it's something that I have had to practice because I had a past too. And the Lord, in his kindness and his graciousness early on, when I became a Christian at the age of 22, helped remind me over and over again not to get away from that Romans one reality like that I have been. And Ephesians two also, that I've been saved by faith. It's not My own doing. It is a gift of God. I cannot boast in myself, but I can cling to the Lord and I can remind my heart of that. So I do think that if we can get into those practices of repentance and preaching to ourselves, we can sit in that truth that we are declared righteous, and we can trust the Lord that he. What he says is true, which I think is part of it, too. It's just hard to trust. Sometimes. We have to preach to ourselves.
- [13:18]
Trillia Newbell
Yeah. Yeah. And I think this. The. The.
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Unknown Speaker
The.
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Trillia Newbell
This passage goes on to say the results of that lack of condemnation means we're actually not entrapped by sin anymore. You know, and in Romans 1, there was no. There's no freedom. Yeah. I mean, you're. You're locked in. In. There's really. This is the way it's going for you. It's not just condemnation in God's wrath. In some sense, you can't change.
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Unknown Speaker
Right.
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Trillia Newbell
But now it's. Now there's a difference, because Paul starts highlighting two ways. There's a way according to the flesh and a life according to the Spirit. So here's what he says. For to set the mind on the flesh is death.
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Unknown Speaker
Yeah.
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Trillia Newbell
But to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. So actually, here. Here's the good news. Before Christ awakened our hearts, there was no. No option. Right? I mean, we were dead is what. Right. I mean, we were not alive. Heart was not beating. Now we've been given a new heart. So there. There's actually a choice to be made. So what does it mean to set our mind on the flesh or to set our mind on the Spirit?
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Unknown Speaker
Yeah. Well, first we got to define what in the. What is he talking about? What is the flesh and sin? I mean, if I. We can say it in one words. Sin, selfishness, selfish sufficiency. But Galatians 5 really sums it up where it talks about the flesh. The works of the flesh are idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, various emulations, wrath, strife, envy, murder. He just goes on and on his sin. And so. Okay, I. I.
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Courtney Docter
Can.
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Unknown Speaker
I give a real practical. Okay, I wish I could say this has never happened since. But most of my sin is in my mind. It's. It's not. I know how to behave. I know what to do.
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Trillia Newbell
We can take you out, Julia.
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Unknown Speaker
Can't take you. Can't take me anywhere but my mind. It's where I wrestle with believing the worst in someone. It's where I wrestle with a lie that. That someone's out to get Me or that I've done something wrong or that you name it, my mind is where. And so for me to set my mind on the flesh, which is typically anything that's untrue, that like, that is where anything I have to make my mind think true thoughts. That is like a action so. So that I often when I sin or when I'm asking for forgiveness, it is related to setting my mind on things that aren't true. So for me to set my mind on the spirit is to remember to set my mind on things that are true, that bring pre peace, which is the spirit that are lovely, that are, you know, that are. I'm saying the scripture, but I can't think of the verse. But anyway, but you know what I'm saying. And so. So that is, I think, the difference of setting your mind on the flesh, which is sin, and spending your mind on the things that are true and right and righteous that are God, the Spirit.
- [16:49]
Trillia Newbell
I'm really enjoying this conversation, but we're going to take a quick break and we're going to hear from one of our sponsors.
- [16:55]
Courtney Docter
We are so grateful for our sponsor, Crossway, and all of the wonderful resources that they produce. But the one we want to highlight today has been written by a wonderful friend of ours, Rebecca McLaughlin, and it is confronting 12 hard questions for the world's largest religion. Rebecca is so uniquely qualified and gifted to write this book as an apologist. And so what she has done is she has given us a resource that helps us answer some of these really hard questions for the people in our lives. Melissa, can you tell us a little bit more about it?
- [17:34]
Trillia Newbell
What I appreciate that Rebecca does in this book is that she really takes things that can be sometimes roadblocks to belief that can kind of, we think, oh, I can't jump over that hurdle. And she actually allows them to be signpost for faith, for actually coming to faith. So like the reality of suffering, the complexity of sexuality, the desire for diversity, or other things that sometimes get in the way. Maybe, you know, you're a scientist and you struggle with, oh, can I really be a scientist and believe? She actually shows how those things that might seem like hurdles can really be ways to point us to faith.
- [18:15]
Courtney Docter
And.
- [18:15]
Trillia Newbell
And she does it in such a inviting way. I think that's what I love about Rebecca's works. She is obviously just so gifted with understanding, but she can also communicate with others so well. So this is a great book to read on your own so that you might understand somebody else's questions of faith, but it's also a great book to really read with maybe some people in your life who are questioning Christianity. I mean, it'd be a great book to say, hey, will you read this with me? Maybe we can explore these topics together. So if you've got someone like that in your life, a neighbor, a co worker, someone that's really questioning Christianity, this would be a great book to read with them.
- [18:58]
Courtney Docter
And I love how she shows us that the Bible's answers to these things are actually really compelling and really beautiful. So it's just a beautiful invitation into a rich conversation. So pick up a copy of, of Confronting Christianity wherever books are sold or visit Crossway.org and if you want to get 30% off because you're going to order it in bulk and you're going to read it with all these people, then you can go to Crossway.org/ and get 30% off.
- [19:27]
Trillia Newbell
Welcome back. Let's get back into today's episode. So, Courtney, let me ask you again. Sitting at my kitchen table, sometimes we feel completely powerless. Yeah. We hear these things, like there's no condemnation. Okay. And now the spirit that raised Christ from the dead lives in me. But man, some days I think we all feel like I got nothing in me to fight. I hear what Trillia is saying about putting my mind on the spirit, but man, the flesh is worn down. Yeah. I'm just thinking about the things of this earth. So how, what does a spirit filled life look like?
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Courtney Docter
Keep the, the hymn Power, Power, Wonder working. Power just keeps going through my mind as you were asking that question. I won't sing it. Nobody wants me to sing it. But yeah. So this particular verse, I mean, is, it's, I mean the very, it's so specific. Right? The very power that raised Christ from the dead dwells in us. And I think what Paul's doing here is referencing Back to Romans 6:6, where he has an entire pass. He has three passages on the fact that he says, you know, you are dead to sin, like you are dead to sin. He says it over and over again. Consider yourselves dead to sin. And the, the command in that, in that chapter is not die to sin. That's already happened. You've been, he says, you, you were crucified, you were buried and you were raised to new life. And so part of this, like knowing who we are in Christ is knowing that we have been raised to newness of life. So if we think about the crucifixion and the resurrection and then we think about that in our own lives, we are Called to that life. We are called to what I had a professor called it the heartbeat of the Christian life. Meaning it's boom, boom, boom, boom, and it's die and live, die and live. And so we die to certain things. We are to crucify the flesh in us. We are to kill sin. We are to put off and take off all these things. That's all the crucified life, but the resurrection life is that we're to walk in these new ways and we're to walk in the Spirit and we're to believe the word of God that it's true that we are dead to sin. And so a lot of us have probably heard that, you know, you've been delivered from the penalty and the, and the power of sin. So the penalty of sin means we're forgiven. The power of sin means that we are no longer a slave to sin. And then people jump ahead to you will one day be delivered from the presence of sin. But I think we are missing a very significant P word in there, and that is the practice of sin. We have to actively participate in the practice of sin. So he's delivered us from the power of sin. This is where we get to work out our own sanctification. And I think part of, you know, repenting and believing, which is the life of a Christian, we might think the life of a Christian is just repenting, but the life of a Christian is repent and believe and so believe that what God says is true. And, and he says this. The very power, the very power that raised Christ from the dead dwells in you. If you're in Christ. Back to your point, Trilia, if you've been saved, then to live practically in light of that means that when a temptation comes, I don't have the option of saying, I can't help it. Now, I do that all the time. I do it all the time. I can't help it. This is who I am, right? This is who I am. I can't help it.
- [22:51]
Trillia Newbell
Can we say this, like, when we're offered deep dish pizza? This is who we are. This is who I am.
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Courtney Docter
I, I need that love, right? Like, I can't help it. I'm stressed, I'm this or I'm that, or, you know, I slander, I gossip, I, I rage, whatever. Like, I can't help it. Yes, we can if we're in Christ, because that's the power that's in us.
- [23:14]
Unknown Speaker
As you were talking, I couldn't help but think about Paul, where he says that he's Given us a way of escape. So we have that power. And when I think, practically speaking, I think we all know this. For those who know Jesus, I know that we, we know when we're about to do like sometimes, you know, all right, but you know, like, you're, you're talking to your husband and you're like, I could say something biting or I could say something loving, or I could walk away. We make a choice at a time. And God's spirit, he gives us a way of escape. And so the power you were talking about, I believe we need to. And I believe we, we need to exercise that muscle where we say no to sin. And I believe he gives us the power to do that. And as you, you mentioned the word sanctification, as we grow more and more like Christ, I have seen that in my own life. I'm not the same 22 year old by the grace of God that I was. And so you start to, you build up, you walk in that power more, you know, so anyway, by the grace.
- [24:25]
Courtney Docter
Of God, I love Don Carson's phrase that it's grace driven effort. Even the effort we make, even the fighting that we participate in is by grace and grace alone. So I'm glad you said that, Trulia.
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Trillia Newbell
And the verse truly is talking about there's no temptation that has seized you, except what is common to man. I think is one of the most humbling verses. You know, it goes on to say, and he's faithful to provide a way out when you are tempted so that you can stand under it. Yeah, but it. Because I want to believe. No, no, no, no. My temptation is not common. Yeah, Courtney's is common. She should totally resist. Mine is very special and very hard.
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Courtney Docter
Extraordinary.
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Trillia Newbell
Yes, yes. So humbling. No temptation has seized you, except what is common to man. Oh, that's so humbling. It just.
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Unknown Speaker
So that's so interesting, Melissa, because I find it as a comfort. This is really. Because I think, oh, good, I'm not. So I'm like everyone else.
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Trillia Newbell
Yes, that's good.
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Courtney Docter
You're trying to resist it, Trilia. So you're like, oh, good. Other people have experienced it and, and they have, you know, withstood the temptation. And Melissa's trying to succumb, so she's special.
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Trillia Newbell
Special. It's harder than yours. Like my daughter.
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Courtney Docter
I can't help it.
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Unknown Speaker
That's just. I just love. Okay. The point is, I love. This is why it's so beautiful to read the Bible in community.
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Courtney Docter
Yeah.
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Unknown Speaker
Because you're gonna get something different from everyone and it's so interesting how the Lord illuminates the word to us and says, it's so. That, to me, was so fascinating to hear you say that and be like. I'm like, I have never read it that way.
- [26:10]
Trillia Newbell
I know. I do love it. I do love it. Well, I want to move us, actually to this next little section because I think it's really interesting. He jumps from, yeah, again, we've got no condemnation. We're talking about the mindset on the flesh, the mindset on the Spirit. We move into the power that's at work in us. It's all this. And then he says this in Romans 8:18. For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing to the glory that is to be revealed in us. Okay, I just want to set on this for a minute because I think that we might be tempted to think that life in Christ, where there's now no condemnation, would mean a life free of suffering. But Paul's talking about these two things in the same passage. So how does this passage actually start to help us to understand suffering in the life of a Christian? If there's no condemnation?
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Unknown Speaker
We.
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Trillia Newbell
Why are. Why are we still suffering? What. What's going on here? So I'm just gonna toss that hard question to either of you.
- [27:17]
Unknown Speaker
Well, I think we've both been talking theology, and it's so funny, so I'll let Courtney start. But all I could think of is Genesis 3, like, we live in a fallen world, and so the reality of suffering is the reality of this world. And. And so we're. We are going to suffer. And I'm. I think that we have. Well, it's a false gospel if we believe that we're not going to suffer and that our. Our life in Christ means that it's going to be perfect. It's. It's going to be hard. And so. And Jesus walked that out. He had a hard life on this earth, and he died, and he rose victorious. And one day it will all be wiped away. But the reality is we are not there yet. So, Courtney, I'd love to hear your thoughts, too.
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Courtney Docter
Oh, no, Trilia, that's exactly what I was thinking. It's like we have to know where we are in the story, and we have not been fully delivered from all of the brokenness of this world. It's been. It's being redeemed. But even, you know, Paul goes on in these verses to be like, the whole creation is groaning. But the other thing that I think it's important to Talk about in these verses is to. To say Paul is also not minimizing our suffering. He's not like, oh, you know, like your sufferings right now, what they're not even worth comparing because it's going to be so good in the future. That is not what he's saying. What he is giving us is this deeply anchored hope in what you just said, Trilia, where there will be a time that all of this will be wiped away. And Paul knew suffering. Paul really knew suffering. And so he is saying that what he knows deep in his soul to be true is that one day all of this, the intensity of the suffering that we feel will fade. It will so pale in comparison. And I think it's interesting that he goes on to talk about, like, the groanings and the, you know, the. It's. It's. It's labor. It's like labor and delivery language. And so I think that that's how we're supposed to think about this, is that. That, you know what? Whether we've birthed babies or not, we understand that there is a painful, painful, painful process that results in something so beautiful that all of the pain and suffering was worth it. And I think that's what he's pointing us to here, is that he's not saying the pain and suffering aren't real.
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Unknown Speaker
Yeah.
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Courtney Docter
He's just saying what's coming is going to be so glorious.
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Unknown Speaker
Yeah. And Jesus in John. Can I read something? John 16:21, he Use the same analogy. So when a woman is giving birth, she has sorrow because her hour has come. But when she has delivered the baby, she no longer remembers the anguish for joy that a human being has been born into the world. So also you have sorrow now, but I will see you again, and your hearts will rejoice, and no one will take your joy from you. I just. I always love that passage, that journey. Jesus is saying that our earthly sorrows are temporary. I mean, we are in. Even. Even in childbirth. You're right, Courtney. Not everyone has given birth and will relate to this. But it is a beautiful example of the pain, sorrow, suffering, and then the joy that will one day be revealed that so much of us have experienced. In that picture. It just gives a picture of it. And in my Bible study, I did this chart, and if I could just read. Do you mind if I read some of them? Okay. So I compared suffering and glory. So suffering. We suffer because of our own sin, but one day we will be sinless. We suffer because of the sin of others. So much of our suffering is brought on because of the sin of others. Evil will be banished, so there will be no more sin. We suffer from worry and anxiety and there will be nothing to worry about. And our risen bodies and minds will be sub. Will no longer be subject to anxiety. We suffer because of sickness. One day there will be no more sickness. We suffer from living in a fallen world where we are subject to natural disasters, talking about the earth groaning and all that. There will be a new heaven and a new earth. We suffer and because of our sorrows, there will be no more tears. And we suffer because of death. And this to me means a lot. Having experienced a lot of death, death will be vanquished. And I just. He's not minimizing, but he does point us to something better. And I'm so grateful for that because it brings us hope to keep going.
- [32:00]
Courtney Docter
So that's so good. Trilia. I love how you hit all the different types of suffering and how every single one of them is going to be banished and redeemed. I mean, praise the Lord. Yeah, yeah, that's really beautiful.
- [32:17]
Trillia Newbell
Well, and the, and the passage does get there, right? Basically, as we, we lead down to that famous passage that so many people know, it's. It's just taking us there. He's talking about this. He's not ignoring the reality of suffering. He, Paul has experienced it greatly. We know his story. I mean, you know, he talks about being burdened beyond our strength, that they despaired of life, even itself. He knew suffering. He saw friends die. He, you know, he was physically whipped. He bore the burden of the church. All of these things that he talks about. And then yet he has the audacity to say, for we know that all things work together for good. I mean, you know, it really is such a bold statement to be able to look at all things and say God is somehow reigning and ruling in such a way that all things are working together for good. Okay, so let's take this verse. What does it not mean? And what does it mean and how can we apply it faithfully in our lives? I think it's something that almost. Yeah, it's gotten Jordan to like the catch all phrase it's all good, which I kind of drives me crazy because I don't think it's all good. Yeah, I mean, it's not that everything is good. It's being worked for good. So, so let's unpack this passage, especially as it's coming out of all of these things. How do we read this and how do we understand it for our Lives today.
- [33:55]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, well, I think the false thing, I'll start with the false thing. I think that we typically go straight to our happiness and to our well being and almost like a money, what do you call that? Health, Wealth. Thank you. That's where, yeah, I think that's what we think of, we think of God's goodness to us must mean that we imagine that he will make our lives easier. Yeah. And, and I mean that's, of course we all pray that the Lord will, well, he will keep us, but that. I don't know many people who are praying, lord, help me suffer. And I know that there are. But not help me but bring me suffering. But, but to work good things really means that, that he is, he is working. It's a spiritual, it's a spiritual good thing. And so he is, he is sanctifying us, he is bringing us closer to him. He is, he's working all things together for the good of those. Doesn't mean that everything that we pray for will happen, but that everything that is best for us will. And that is how I have, as I've studied it, understood it and I'd love to hear what Courtney has to say.
- [35:23]
Courtney Docter
Oh, I think that's exactly it. You know, that we have to redefine what good is. We have to redefine what our best. What, what we mean by that or are we have to align our understanding with God's understanding of that. And, and what is good is that I am sanctified through and through. First Thessalonians 4, 3. Like this. I think this is God's will for you, you know, your sanctification. And, and so my greatest good is that my faith would be deeper and so that more often in my life has come through things not going the way I would want them to go. And so I, I actually have to look for and reorient not just my definition, but my longings that I would want that my longings would be more for Christ to be formed in me than my longings would be for my life to become comfy and easy. Now, I agree with you, Charlie. We don't ask for suffering, it comes. There is nothing wrong with asking for. You know, he knows like his blessings are, are the things that we so easily call blessings are we're meant to desire those. Nothing wrong with desiring those. But when he says, no, my blessings are going to come this way, you know, it's the Laura story. So my blessings are going to come this way, then it's that, it's that submission to his goodness in that.
- [36:49]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah. And the surrounding verses are all about that. That's what they're about. They're about our well being in Christ.
- [36:56]
Trillia Newbell
Yeah.
- [36:56]
Unknown Speaker
And. And so we take, when we take versus out of the context, we're going to add all sorts of stuff to it. Melissa, I think you were going to say something.
- [37:05]
Trillia Newbell
No, I was just gonna say, just jumping off that. I think it's really tempting as we live life, to judge God by the goodness of our circumstances. Yeah, but we're supposed to judge our circumstances by the goodness of our God. And so that's the key. Right. It's easy to kind of live this life and put God on trial. If you do right by me, then I'll believe in you. But this passage starts out with, he's already done right by you.
- [37:34]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
- [37:36]
Trillia Newbell
So now can you trust him when you can't understand Him? And you know, a lot of us are living in worlds, we can't understand what's going on. You know, there's suffering and I mean, look, you know, truly you're talking about death. It's. It's really hard to stare death in the face and be able to be like, yeah, this is going to work for good. Like, I don't care. I don't really want this good, whatever it might be. It's so tempting to have that response. But, but what if we could say instead of, I don't feel like this is good, but I know it must be good. I know it. I know he will work it for good in my life so I can trust him there in the darkest of day and the darkest of night. This, this is a beacon to us. When I can't see that it's good, I can trust he's doing this. But man, that's faith. That's faith in action. That is not easy believism. That's not, that's. That's us taking it to the depths of despair. And, and so he closes. I'm gonna close with this, you know, way he gets us there, because I, I'm going to read this whole passage from 31 to 38, because I think it's worth reading. All of this is worth reading or 39. And this is, this is how he ends. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own son, but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It Is God who justifies who. Who is to condemn Jesus Christ is the one who died more than that, who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who is indeed interceding for us, who shall separate us from the love of Christ till tribulation or distress or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword. As it is written, for your sake, we are being killed all day long. We are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered. Know in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor death, nor anything else in all creation will be able to separate us from the love of God in Jesus Christ. Christ Jesus our Lord. I mean, praise God. That is just. Wow. Wow. Yeah. I mean, words our soul needs to hear so truly. Let me ask this. You know, he. He's saying God's already given you his son, right? Can you. Can you trust him? Even though we may suffer here, he. Eventually we know all things are going to come. We're going to be in a place where suffering is no more. Every tear is wiped away that is coming. Yet sometimes we still really doubt that God is for us. So what would you say today to someone, to a woman who's listening, who might be feeling like, I'm just not sure God loves me? Yeah. Like, what assurance could you give her, even looking at these verses, to remind her, no, your God loves you this much.
- [40:39]
Unknown Speaker
Right? You know, in when we are tempted to not think or believe that God loves us, our temptation is to withdraw, to run away. But in these verses and throughout the Scripture, Jesus is always inviting us to Himself. Now I'm gonna cry. So I would encourage the person who is doubting his love to. To run to God and ask him to help you believe it's true. Because it's true. But it's hard to run, just run to Him. He invites us to a throne of grace in our time of need. He draws near to the brokenhearted. He loves us with a love that is unfathomable and hard to understand. We cannot comprehend it, and the depths of it are too deep for us to ever. We're just. We're never going to get to the bottom of it. It's just so. So what I would say is that what you're really struggling with is unbelief. And so because it's true, you need to ask God to help you to believe. I believe help my unbelief. And to. To Keep preaching it to yourself and not to withdraw from. Run to Jesus who has poured out grace and love and who will never. That there's nothing, even your doubt right now cannot separate you from the love of God in Christ Jesus. Amen. For that, amen, run to him and, and ask him to help you to believe it to be true.
- [42:27]
Trillia Newbell
That's so good that, that's so good. Well, let me throw this one to you, Courtney. How is it a bomb that nothing can separate us from the love of God that is for us in Christ Jesus. So you know, we have, we have, we may, we may doubt it, but how, how can we hold on and cling to that? Nothing can separate us from his love.
- [42:48]
Courtney Docter
Well, I think that what Trillia just said was so beautiful and helpful that it's that place of believing. It's that he's. He's gone so far out of his way to give us his word and his spirit to, to tell us these things are true. I mean even as you started reading and it's the title of Trilia's study, if God is for us, like who can be against us? And then it goes on to the next verse, which is the one that just really kind of changed. Like people will ask sometimes after you write a Bible study or a book, like what really stood out to you. And it was Romans 8:32 for me that he who did not spare his own son, but graciously gave him up for us, how will he not also with him give us all things? And it's this argument from the greater to the lesser, like he's already done, he's done everything. And so like just back to Trillia's point, it's a, it's a belief. And so to look at this chapter, which is why, which is why you can spend, you can get truly as Bible study and spend six weeks in this chapter alone. It's considered the high point of the New Testament, definitely the high point of Paul's writings because it is this place where we. It starts off with no condemnation, and it ends with no separation. And that's who we are in Christ. We are not condemned and we are not separated. And so we, we live in the middle of Romans 8. And so if, if you are feeling like your sin or your. So yeah the things going back to your chart, Trilia, does our sin separate us? No. He has completely redeemed it. In Christ. Does our suffering mean, mean he doesn't love us? No. Even our suffering isn't going to be compared with the Glory that's to be revealed even in us. And does our doubt separate us? No. Nothing will set. I mean, this whole passage is given to us by God himself to say, you're so safe. Like, nothing will take you out of my hand. Nothing will separate. Nothing will make me pull my love away from you. And so our job is to. To sit in it and rest in it and believe it and drag our souls back to the truth. And of what Paul is telling us in Romans 8.
- [45:02]
Trillia Newbell
I love how you said that. Drag our souls back.
- [45:06]
Courtney Docter
Sometimes we do need that.
- [45:07]
Trillia Newbell
And I think it's even better when you can do it around a table with some friends. So we just encourage you, get together with some friends and read Romans 8 and just go over line by line and do this. I also encourage you. Trilia has a new book out called Celebrating around the Table, Learning the Stories of black Christians through Readings, Fellowship, food and faith. So you could actually grab a copy of that. You could make some of her delicious recipes in there. Talk about Romans 8. Feast on the word together, feast on a meal together, and really savor these truths together. Because there's much, much to be mined here. And I think, like what Trulia said earlier, when you do it in community, you see things you didn't see before. God promises his Holy Spirit's with us all the time, but it's especially in a unique way with us when we open the wor and study together. But I want to just close with this question for you both. What recipe are you loving right now? So if I was around your table and we could be eating together, what would we be eating on?
- [46:17]
Unknown Speaker
Okay, so I love food and I'm kind of adventurous, and so you would have something probably different every single day because I cook a lot and I am. I just love it. But you're going to laugh. I have two things that I just keep experimenting with. The first one is dates. So dates is a natural sweetener. Sweet. So I'm making brownies with dates and fudge with dates and using all these date recipes and discovering dates, if that's what you mean. Like food.
- [46:51]
Courtney Docter
Right?
- [46:53]
Trillia Newbell
Send me these. I want. I have a bag of dates in my.
- [46:58]
Unknown Speaker
That's how I use Instagram these days. I'm like, oh, recipe. Another thing that I'm experiencing, and this is where you would laugh, is cabbage. I love cabbage.
- [47:07]
Trillia Newbell
Don't send me those recipes. No, I just want the date ones. Don't send me the cabbage ones.
- [47:11]
Unknown Speaker
I know you love fresh tomatoes. If I had fresh tomato recipes, Melissa. But anyways, so dates and cabbage.
- [47:23]
Courtney Docter
I just need to come eat at your house as well.
- [47:25]
Unknown Speaker
Anyone's welcome. I'd love it.
- [47:28]
Trillia Newbell
You're gonna hear all these knock, knock, knock, knock.
- [47:31]
Courtney Docter
Yeah.
- [47:32]
Trillia Newbell
What about you, Courtney? What are you. What recipe?
- [47:34]
Courtney Docter
You know, I'm not. I mean, I'm doing this, like, you know, I'm not experimenting with anything. I'm not cooking anything. I've got this, you know, food that shows up at my house on Mondays that I then make the, you know, follow their little, you know, instruction card or. Yeah, I'm barely. I'm. I'm barely getting the food on the table, but. Grace, Grace. No condition.
- [48:00]
Trillia Newbell
There's no condemnation.
- [48:01]
Courtney Docter
There's no condemnation.
- [48:03]
Trillia Newbell
I have to meal services, but I.
- [48:07]
Courtney Docter
Feel like the truly, you know, sanctified, spiritual Christian women are the ones who are experimenting with dates and cabbage.
- [48:14]
Unknown Speaker
No, I'm just a foodie, and I'm often. I just love food. You are so funny. Yeah.
- [48:22]
Trillia Newbell
Well, I have my mom's chicken and rice casserole, which sounds so boring, but I really love it. And that's the one I would have y' all ever to eat with. It's. It's a good recipe. It's got enough bad things in it that it makes everything taste really good. My mom uses heaps of butter in everything, and I'm all for it. Makes everyone happy, so. Well, friends, thank you. Thank you both for joining us for this conversation, Truly, especially you for coming on. Romans 8 is so rich. We're so thankful that all of you who are listening have joined this episode of the Deep Dish from the Gospel Coalition. If you found this conversation helpful, we hope you'll go over and like it and subscribe to it or share a friend or leave a comment. Comment. And we just encourage you to support the work of TGC so we can continue to make content like this available. Thanks so much for joining us. Hey, friends, it's Melissa Krueger here, and I'm so excited that you're listening to the Deep Dish. Want to stay connected and get even more resources for growing in your faith? We've got a new newsletter for you, and we're so excited about it. When you subscribe, you'll get discussion questions for the Deep Dish episodes, memory verses, updates on what's happening with women's initiatives, as well as some of our favorite staff picks. And these are really fun. So head over to tgc.org women and sign up today. We can't wait to connect with you again. That's TGC.org women.