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The Deep Dish
Self-Care vs. Self-Sacrifice
00:51:39
Courtney and Melissa discuss how to apply biblical discernment to the question of when to prioritize wise self-care and when to put aside your needs for the sake of others.
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- [00:02]
Jared Kennedy
Hi, friends. I'm Jared Kennedy, managing editor for books and curriculum at TGC and author of several books for families. I'm also a special needs dad and I want to encourage you to consider a new eight week cohort from TGC that will help you lay a biblical foundation for disability inclusion. Did you know that 1 in 5 families in the US has a member with a disability? But sadly, that number isn't represented in our churches. Each Sunday, 20. To reach these families with the gospel and disciple them, church leaders must learn how to create more accessible and welcoming environments. Through this expert led cohort, you will learn more about common disabilities and the barriers that keep those with disabilities and their families from attending church. We'll look at how to build ministry environments where kids, students and adults with disabilities can belong and be discipled. Is your ministry ready to welcome those with disabilities? Find out more@tgc.org cohorts that's tgc.org cohorts.
- [01:09]
Courtney Docter
I think there's this connection, they're not the same thing, but between emotional health and spiritual maturity. And I think that we can be sanctified and not grow in emotional health, but I think it is very hard to grow in emotional health and not be growing in sanctification at the same time. I think that our emotional health actually aids our sanctification. Welcome to the Deep Dish, a podcast from the Gospel Coalition where we love having deep conversations about deep truths. I am Courtney Docter and I am here with my friend and co host, Melissa Krueger.
- [01:51]
Melissa Krueger
Hey, Courtney. I am really, I think I'm looking forward to our conversation today.
- [01:57]
Courtney Docter
I mean, I am.
- [01:59]
Melissa Krueger
Okay. I might feel a little convicted. And so you're always kind of like, ooh, do I want to enter in here? Do I want to talk about this? Because I can say this is an ongoing tension in my life. And I think this is something, a topic that a lot of women, we struggle with. And it's this whole relationship between self care and self sacrifice. And, you know, I mean, I think, I think, I think women struggle with this in particular. We have a lot of caretaking in our life for different people, whether it's, I mean, women just like to care for each other, you know, in a, in a lot of ways. Your roommate in college, whether it's your housemates or whatever, whether it's your parents you're caring for, elderly parents, you're caring for young children. Women feel this tension of taking care of other people a lot. So, yeah, yeah.
- [02:49]
Courtney Docter
And there's really, there's kind of these two extremes out there, aren't there? Where, you know, you have, you have the, the one hand where it's all about the importance of self care. And so, you know, we, we see it on Instagram. We might, I mean, I'll kind of talk a little bit about this, like in my family of origin, how that's actually like a, a family value. And, and so, like, there's this importance of self care and, and that can play out in a lot of different ways. Right. And we'll, we'll get into that, like the way culture kind of defines self care. And then you have other women who, you know, I mean, they can just be completely sleep deprived. And, and it's one of the, one of the Enneagram types is. And I think it might be yours is like the animal that goes with it is the pelican. And it's the pelican. Because, like, the pelican, you know, has this historical story of like feeding its young from the wound in its side. It's like this sacrificial, Right?
- [03:54]
Melissa Krueger
It's flesh. I'm going to pick off my own flesh and feed it to you. Yes.
- [04:00]
Courtney Docter
And that is, that is the other extreme where it's so, you know, sacrificial and so, you know, where people are like on the verge of a breakdown, but they won't take a break.
- [04:15]
Melissa Krueger
Is this an intervention again? This is an intervention.
- [04:17]
Courtney Docter
Are you telling me. I think your spiritual maturity has trumped that. But, like, there's a proclivity in all of us towards one direction or the other. So what we want to do in the. Is acknowledge this tension and start with kind of a biblical view of both. So let's start with a biblical view of self care and talk about how it's different than self indulgence, which would be self care taken to the unbiblical extreme.
- [04:48]
Melissa Krueger
Yeah, I think that's a good place to start. And so we wanna say very clearly there is a biblical view of taking care of ourselves in certain arenas. And I think scripturally we can say that we have this body and we have emotions that I'm gonna get into just for a second, but then there's also our soul and spiritual growth. And I'll ask you about that in just a moment. So when it comes to our body and our emotions, I do think we have scriptural encouragements to care for our bodies and to even wrestle in our emotions. Rightly. And so firstly with the body, I think there's a sense in which, you know, Paul, when he's writing To Timothy, he says physical training is of some value. He says godliness has value for all things. But he, he explains that, hey, your body matters. And I think we see this, you know, and he also when, when Timothy's having some ailments. I love how Paul deals with Timothy. He's such a father to him. Hey, you know when you, with that stomach stuff you're having, drink a little wine so it'll get better. You know, we all love when Paul says things like this, but like there's this notion of hey, you can't actually do some of the work you're called to if your physical body isn't working properly. So I, you know, so I think it's right for us to think about what we eat, to think about how we exercise and to think about our slee. Those are kind of realms of spirit of our body that are really important. That isn't. I need a massage. Okay, so I'm gonna, we'll talk about
- [06:25]
Courtney Docter
that more always, right? Not always. I mean, yeah, but, yeah, but you
- [06:30]
Melissa Krueger
know what I mean? Like you could go your whole life and never have a massage and you've still cared for your physical body. Yeah, I mean like just in general. Yeah, maybe Courtney disagrees with me on that.
- [06:41]
Courtney Docter
But we'll, but no, but I do. I think you're right, Melissa. There's assumption that we are going to care for our bodies, right. Like the, for no one ever hated his own flesh. But like, you know, and, and so talk to us about that. Like there's this assumption in scripture that, that you will naturally. Our natural inclination is, you know, it's like when an arm is broken, like you naturally hold it close to you. There is a, there is a tendency, a human tendency to, in us to care for and protect ourselves.
- [07:17]
Melissa Krueger
That's right. And I mean if you don't eat, you actually physically will die. So there is a reality that has to happen, you know, so there's this care for the body that's natural that has to happen, that we need to at some sense prioritize. We'll talk, we'll talk in a minute about how that can sometimes go awry and become an over focus, you know, and, and we want to be careful about that. But I also think there, that we see in the scriptures a care for our emotional life. And sometimes I think we're hesitant in the Christian world to talk about this. We're like, oh, they're so self introspective. But good grief, David was dealing with his emotions all the time. Whether he's happy, whether he's being chased by, you know, a band of angry men, you know, whether he's in sin, whether he's in sorrow, whether he's had, yeah, all of his emotions, he is actually processing. I think what we see is he's processing them with the Lord. And so there's a right space for that in our lives. I think sometimes we can think the super Christians are the ones who never have to wrestle with how they're feeling. They're just, you know, even. And I think we see in David a real wrestling, and I think it was a godly wrestling. But what about. And that kind of leads into our soul care, spiritual growth. How should we look at those things?
- [08:39]
Courtney Docter
Well, it's obviously of utmost importance that we are. That we are. I mean, you know, Jesus invited. Jesus himself went away to desolate places to pray and spend time with the Father. And Jesus invited his disciples, I think about when they came back from ministering to the surrounding towns. And that's the first thing he does is come away with me, like get alone with me and we're going to spend some time together. And then, you know, Jesus is the one who said to me, come to me all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. And then he says, take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and lonely in heart and you will find rest for your souls. So there's a physical rest, right? And a spiritual rest. I mean, it's built into. We see it in the creation account where God sets a day aside for Sabbath rest. God rested first, he models it for us and then he gives us this day. And so the Lord knows I. He knows that we are but dust. He knows that we are finite, limited people. And he knows that we need this rest of all kinds, this physical rest, this rest for our souls. I love that. That's how Jesus explains it. Like, come to me and in me, with me, you're going to find this rest that you're actually longing for. And I think even how you've alluded to the fact that we look for it in all these other places, um, we're, we're trying to satiate and satisfy this longing that we have that for this rest for our souls that is only going to be found in Jesus. And we're trying to satisfy that in all these other, in all these other places. Um, but so it's this. So, yes, physical rest is necessary. Care for our souls, care for our, our spiritual well being, care for our emotional Wellbeing, I want to talk about later because I think that. That. That even our emotional health and our spiritual health are. Are pretty intimately connected. And, and they, they play into each other. So we'll talk about that. But. So we're just kind of right now trying to define what we mean by self care. But now I want to move into, what do we mean? What's a biblical view of self sacrifice? And so, you know this idea where Jesus says, come to me and you're going to find rest for your soul. If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross, which means die, right. And follow me. And so there's one author who said it like this, and I love this, he says, but for my part, I lacked a category to hold these two voices together. And he talks about it as the gospel of extravagant grace that requires nothing from us. And that's kind of the call to come and rest. And then he says, and the gospel of radical discipleship that demands everything of us. And he says, which is it? Come and rest or come and die? And I love that because that's the tension. Right. It's the flip side of the same coin. So talk to us about a biblical view of self sacrifice.
- [11:49]
Melissa Krueger
I love that quote, Courtney. That's so good because it highlights the tension. I think we feel our souls deeply long this rest. You know, I think of the psalmist where it's like, my soul thirsts for you like a deer pants for the water. So we. We live in a broken world. So we feel this deep desire for that rest. Our bodies feel it, our emotions feel it, our soul feels it. And then yet at the same time, we have a savior who does say, take up your cross and follow after me. And I mean. Yeah, I've told you this before. I was talking with. When I was in women's ministry in the local church, and we were trying to come up with a retreat theme. I was like, what if we. What if we did come and die? And they all looked at me with, like, stares like, no one's coming to that retreat.
- [12:47]
Courtney Docter
That's so on brand for you. I mean, that is just so on brand for you. Let's talk about the hard things. I know.
- [12:55]
Melissa Krueger
Yeah. Because I think it's so easy for. For my heart to buy into kind of a health wealth gospel. It's not the one of, I'm going to be rich, but it should be easier. And I have to.
- [13:10]
Courtney Docter
Yeah, yeah.
- [13:11]
Melissa Krueger
And I have to constantly remind myself, it's a narrow road. Few find it you know, it is not easy to follow Jesus in some of the places he leads us. And it will cause self denial. I actually, I have a really good book I've been reading. I brought it up here. It's called. Look how someone gave me this. It's this book, it's called Future Tenses of the Blessed Life. I have no idea what that title actually means or is pointing to, but he has a whole chapter on, on death and dying and dying to self is what he's talking about. And let me, if you, if I have a second, because what, what I, what I think he said here was so good. He talks about how hard it is for us to do this, that the self life, you know, denying self is just such a hard thing. And I think that's what we mean when we're talking about self sacrifice. Denying my wants, my what, what I might be dreaming about, even what I'm hoping for and sacrificing it at some level. And what he says, he says it so well. This is how he words it. I can't write like this, so. And I can't say it this well. To lay your Isaac upon the altar, your dearest, most cherished, most God given possession, to turn aside from some gate standing open before you into a sunlit garden. And at the call of God to take a darker, stonier path, to renounce what others hold without rebuke, to go to Gethsemane and Calvary and the grave in close companionship with the man of sorrows, to be stripped of friends and wealth and reputation and success, flung like a shipwrecked mariner on some lone shore. Ah, this is not the lot which we would naturally select. Nay, it is from which we shrink. And so he, he goes into that a little bit more. And then, and then he says, he gives us encouragement. Let us look not on the dying side, but on the living side. Each shadow has its light, each valley has its height, each night its dawn, each wound of the oyster shell its pearl, each kind of death its counterpart of life. To have one is to have both. It is therefore never a mistake to be ever thinking. It is therefore a mistake to be ever thinking of what you must give up. Think rather what you must take in. Follow hard after Christ. And so he paints this picture of yes, there is this come and die. But, but, but he actually calls the chapter Death as the gateway to life. Yeah, and it is, even when we're talking about self denial, it's the gateway to life. Like I love that the wound has the pearl, right?
- [16:07]
Courtney Docter
I love that. I had a professor that would talk about, you know, the, the seed that must fall to the ground and die. And he talks about like the seed, it falls to the ground and what dies is its outer shell. And what it gives way to though is everything the seed was intended to be this beautiful fruit bearing tree or this beautiful fruit bearing plant. And it's through death, the death of falling to the ground and having your outer shell cracked open that actually then gives way to life. And I do think that is the way of the gospel. I mean, it's clearly right. Death first and then life. I mean death and resurrection. That's the way Jesus not only led, but then calls us to follow him in both, both his death and resurrected life. And so yeah, and I think a lot of times what we're called to die to is everything you were talking about. And I think about it in terms of like our agendas. How do I die to my agenda? Like the things that, that I want to do or that I. And so I think self sacrifice a lot of times has to do with denying those things for the better thing, for the way of Christ. And so, you know, even when we look at Paul and his, you know, his life was so fruitful right after he came to know Christ and he certainly didn't have a lot of self care going on in his life, right? There were shipwrecks and beatings and he was, you know, he was hungry, he was thirsty, he was all these things. And then he tells us in Colossians, he's like, for this I toil like the proclamation of the Gospel with all his energy that he powerfully works within me. And so there's this idea of like we die to the things that promote us that are about, about our agendas, the things we desire and we live to the things that are of Christ. But I think I've been thinking about this topic and just as we, you know, I knew we were going to be talking about it today. And I think one of the keys to this is self awareness because I think we all are prone to fall on one side of this or the other. And so maybe it's your family of origin, maybe it's just your personality, your own proclivities. But I think there are, and it's probably half and half, probably half of the women listening are going to fall like where I would fall. And that's going to be, well, by golly, I'm going to pursue self care that is, you know, my mom loves me so much. And she, to this day, I mean, she's all like, you need to go get that massage, you need to go get that pedicure, you need to go get. And she is just loving me. There is, I mean, she is not trying to promote something in me, but I'm like, that's right, I hear that. And I'm like, that's right. That's exactly what I not only need, but deserve. And so my tendency is not going to be towards self sacrifice, but, but we all know people that are. It's almost like the identity comes in because self sacrifice can turn into a martyr complex, right? So if self care can turn into the hero complex, you know, I'm so great, I need to do all these things for myself. Self sacrifice can turn into the martyr complex where, you know, I am always pouring myself out for others and it becomes kind of your identity. And so we were talking in the beginning about like this emotional health. And I think this is where they're tied. Part of pursuing emotional health is growing in self awareness. And part of that self awareness then is going to be to say, man, where, where does, where do these two things that we can see both in scripture, come and rest, come and die? Where can both of those turn into idolatry in our lives? Either the idolatry of self, like, oh, I do so much for other people, or the idolatry of self, that is, I must pamper myself at every, you know, at every turn. So, so what does it. As we're, as we're thinking about those things and you started going there, it kind of took us on a different rabbit trail. But let's go back. Well, let's get back on track to what you were saying. What does it actually look like? So you were talking about this sacrificial love of others. What does it actually look like to. In this topic of self care and, and, and denying ourselves, where do others factor into this, this, this considering others as more significant than ourselves? Because again, it can fall on either side of that coin, can't it?
- [20:58]
Melissa Krueger
Yeah, I mean, and I think that's such an interesting question, like, what does it actually mean? And I'd love to hear your thoughts on this too. Like, because it's not just doing things for other people, right? Like that service, but this is a little more powerful than that because it's actually denying ourselves. So it's kind of a little bit different, right? I mean it's, it's saying, oh, that money I was going to use for X, that was something I Wanted I'm now going to use for y. I mean, this is one example of something like, so I'm going to go without, you know, the new socks I wanted for my workout or whatever it might be so that I can give that to whatever. I really like this ministry I really want to support. And that is this really tangible way. And in that moment, you've said, oh yeah, I'm going to deny myself something I wanted and give it to someone else. And I think that's a really good practice in our, in our Christian walk. And man, here's what I can say. I don't feel like I do it enough. Or maybe this is the reality. When we were younger in ministry and really had no money, it felt more like a sacrifice. Like, you know, it was a real sacrifice. The joy. I think again, we always forget that, yes, I am denying myself, but I'm invited into this, this beautiful joy of self denial. You know, it's not just yes. And to get to see how the Lord uses things like that, you really do end up saying, I feel like when we practice this, you really do end up saying, it's more blessed to give than receive. Like you experience the joy of that. So I always just want to highlight it is a gateway to joy. But I think thinking of it is how, how, how am I actually denying myself to care for someone else? Or as Philippians says, and I'll ask you about this, do. So this is another way to do it. Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility, count others more significant than yourselves. So that's a little bit different. One might be deny yourself, you know, to care for someone else. This one is counting them more significant. What do you think that looks like day to day?
- [23:36]
Courtney Docter
Yeah, well, I think the key there is humility. I feel like the last few years that has been a question that the Lord keeps bringing to my mind is to. In any situation. So in, you know, in a altercation or, you know, confrontation or disagreement with a friend or family member, like, okay, what does it look to walk in the humility of Christ in this. Or what would humility in this situation look like? And he just keeps, the Lord just keeps bringing that back, back to me. And so I think this idea of humility and counting others more significant can really play out in a lot of ways. I think about friends that I have a friend right now that's going through just a really horrific time in her family of origin. And I'm watching how humility, what it looks like as she navigates that fine line between. Because I, I think the world would say, like, in any given situation, you stand up for your rights, you make sure that your voice is heard, you make sure that your perspective is understood. And I can really grab hold of that in my heart. Like, I, I can't stand for my perspective to not be understood. I want to be. I mean that's just like I want somebody to understand like why I would say that or why I would do that. But I think this humility at times calls us to say, maybe them understanding me is not the most important thing, but maybe the most important thing is that I work to understand them and that I stand in a place that I can absorb the offense or absorb the misunderstanding. And it's so hard to do that. And even I'd say it's hard not only in like the moment, but also afterwards in the, the thinking, the spiraling of the thinking of like, golly, well, if they just, you know, had said this or if I could have just said this, but there is this sense of like, wow, what if, what if what they're going through is more significant than what I'm going through? And so, so yeah, I just love that Paul ties those two concepts together, that it takes humility in the moment to actually do this thing and count others more significant than yourselves. I think that. And we're going to get into this in a minute, but the boundary conversation. What role does humility play in the boundary conversation? So I think we should take a little break for a word from our sponsors and we will come back and we will talk about that. We're going to continue talking about this tension between, uh, how we do self care and how we also live a life of self sacrifice. So we'll be back in a minute.
- [26:34]
Melissa Krueger
Welcome back. Um, I, Courtney, I'm really enjoying this conversation and what, what you were just saying made me really start to think some practical things where it can be just a, a way to lay our lives down. So I think about when I was in college and had roommates and you know, and they would. This inevitably happens. You know, there's a lot left in the sink that you didn't use when you were cooking and sometimes you just humbly clean them. Now sometimes you may need to confront. We're going to get into the tensions on this, you know, of life. But, but I do think there is this practical ways in our. The people you're living with every day are probably the hardest to do this with. I think. Like, let me tell you, if you Came over to my house, Courtney. I would be like, oh, don't do the dishes. I'll get those for you. I'm so nice and self serving the people who live with me regularly. You know, you put your dishes in that. Don't put them in the sink, put them in the dishwasher. So, so how practically can we do this? Well, with the people closest to us, you know, I mean, because I think that is sometimes where the rubber meets the road.
- [27:54]
Jared Kennedy
We.
- [27:54]
Melissa Krueger
It is hard to, in humility, consider others better than ourselves. Are there some practical things you can think of?
- [28:01]
Courtney Docter
Well, I'm just laughing at the example because, you know, kind of what my life right now is where I've had two adult children, their spouses, their children, their dogs, everybody move back in for kind of the unforeseen.
- [28:13]
Melissa Krueger
You're doing generational living and we have
- [28:15]
Courtney Docter
multifamily, multi generational living. And it is incredible and we are having so much fun. But I'm laughing over the dishes in the, the sink because, yeah, that's. But I've actually been so impressed with my adult children and their spouses, the way they have been sacrificially just jumping in and, and kind of doing the thing, but even navigating my own heart in it. There are times that it's like, you know, why do we have to wait till the end of the day to, you know, clean the dishes? Why can't they be done? I mean, it's just, it's in us, right? Like this, this sense of justice instead of. And I will say this is where my husband absolutely shines. His willingness to just go behind everybody and do the unseen thing that serves other people. And it's an example to me, it's not. It is something I have to work really hard at to do. And so, yeah, again, I think self awareness is a good thing to know where, where your like, natural inclination goes, because again, and I'm not accusing my husband of this, but you know, that idea of going behind can turn into the kind of self talk of like, I am just a servant. I am such a, such a servant of the Lord. That's not gonna be my self talk ever.
- [29:41]
Melissa Krueger
Or a quiet internal bitterness, you know.
- [29:45]
Courtney Docter
Exactly.
- [29:46]
Melissa Krueger
Why isn't anyone noticing that I'm doing all this behind the scenes?
- [29:50]
Courtney Docter
Exactly.
- [29:51]
Melissa Krueger
And they think there's a magic fairy that, you know, like, I can give you the self talk. You want to know, the sinful self talk. And, and that's really pride in a different way rather than self denial. It's just you know, rather than just. It's really different than joyfully saying in my heart and I have seen the Lord work on me in this. I'm so thankful I have these people in my home to do this with. You know, I mean, and that's like, what a gift you've given me to get to do this and that.
- [30:24]
Courtney Docter
Or.
- [30:25]
Melissa Krueger
And, and, you know, I, I can say this in caring for aging parents. And you know, I lost my mom this fall and the, the act of. I, I remember, you know, she got so her. Your lips get so dry. Yeah, you can't, because you can't take any liquid in. And so we're sponging her, you know, water. And that was a privilege, I could say at every moment, this is such a privilege to get to be here. And that's how we want to look at this. Giving to others with that humility of even just recognizing the humanity that surround us. And what a, what a great thing that my hands work. And I can do this. Like, sometimes we forget to just thank the Lord. I can carry the laundry up the stairs. Thank you for giving me strong legs and arms to do that. You know, rather than grumbling in our souls. The laundry again, like, why do these people keep getting dressed every day? That's. I've been both, both places. So I think it's just something that we have to work on even in our self giving, even in our self denying, doing it with a heart of gratitude, doing it with a heart of expectation that the Lord has something for us in our self denial that is right and good and that he uses this rather than a martyr complex, which is really different and just as self focused as self care. I mean, both of those come from the same root of look at me, look at me, care for me, or, you know, I have to be the one to care for everyone. So, okay, how do you live with the tension of both of these in your life? Like, how do we become one? We have to discern two things. We have to discern what is our natural tendency. You've already spoken to that a little bit like, but I think that's a question. How do I discern which side I kind of fall off on? And then how do we discern,
- [32:24]
Courtney Docter
once
- [32:24]
Melissa Krueger
we know that about ourselves, how do we then discern, hey, this is a time you need to deny yourself and care for someone else?
- [32:32]
Jared Kennedy
Or.
- [32:33]
Melissa Krueger
No, this is a time actually you need to take 30 minutes and you need to go spend some time with the Lord in prayer. You need to get up on the mountain by yourself. What advice would you give? What principles would you help people think through as they're making those discerning decisions?
- [32:51]
Courtney Docter
Well, I think, I love that you use the word discern because it is, it's a wisdom issue. And so it is that. And I think it's holding these two things before the Lord. You know, the reality is they both start with the word self, self care, self sacrifice. And so there is something that we need to move beyond that, right. That even if it's always about self, that should be a little bit of a warning flag that, you know, a little bit of a red light that like, okay, maybe, maybe the, the ultimate lens that I'm going to look through is not going to be self, anything but. But the Lord and what is he doing? I do think that this idea of lifting our eyes again to not just the character of the Lord, but the word will of the Lord, the ways of the Lord. And so the Lord is. It's so easy to think that his will for our lives is to make us comfy and happy and again, kind of that health and wealth, you know, that that's his greatest will for our lives. And I would say it's not like he's kind and he does those things, but he's actually the greatest will that he has for us is to join him on his mission that he is seeking and sa. Saving the lost, that he is redeeming a people for himself, that he is restoring the entirety of his creation. And he invites us to participate in that. And so if our worlds are getting really small and everything is becoming about us and our little worlds, we're becoming really myopic. Then I would say the anecdote, that's a red flag. And the anecdote is to lift our eyes and to remind ourselves that the Lord is on a, a greater mission than just our, you know, should I get a pedicure or should I take a nap or should I go make dinner for somebody? I mean, you know what I mean? Like there's. That probably wasn't a really great example, but just that idea that he is about something so much more and we get to join him. So what about you? What principles do you use? How are you? How do you discern between like what is he calling me to here? Because we need rest. We need, we've already said that. And we need to be self sacrificial. Like we need both. And so how do we discern in any given situation?
- [35:25]
Melissa Krueger
Yeah, well, as someone who probably tends toward the. Well, the more I'm. The more I'm uncomfortable, I must be living holier. The things I've had to stop and pause and say, okay, consider my sleep habits. How am I sleeping? Consider my time with the Lord. This is a big, this is a, something I hold to if I find that time with the Lord and I'm not getting to scripture or prayer, it's just a big sign, it's time to pull back, something is off with you. And I mean, and the scriptures tell us that. Right. You know, unless you abide in me and my words abide in you. Yeah, it's not going to go well because apart from me, you can do nothing. So this is the whole thing about even the self denial, it has to be self denial that's rooted in abiding in Jesus. So for me, if I find that I'm trying to work outside of that, it's always going to get real wonky and bad and I'm going to see my bitter heart. So the other thing is when I see bitterness in the service, that's also a sign, you know, hey, I need to go back to the Lord and get my heart right now. It might not be a sign I'm doing something wrong, but it's a sign something's wrong with me. So I need to, I need to go back and be prayerful about that. Be in the word repent. Sometimes it's just a call to repentance and then continue on. But, but I think there's always a good thing to do. A pause and look at your schedule and, and prayerfully make our decisions. And sometimes I think I would just challenge one thing. I would challenge sometimes we are deciding things constantly just through the lens of is this good for me? Like, am I gonna join a Bible study? Am I going to go to that women's event? Oh, I don't wanna go. So I just don't go. And I wanna push people into, you know, somebody at that Bible study might need you there. Somebody at that women's event that you're not really interested, might need a new friend and you might be able to welcome them in. So I, I think those are the things where I find both a challenge to, for me, you know, I'm a little hobbit, I'd like to stay home every night of the week. So I have to internally challenge myself is, yeah, I don't necessarily want to go to that Bible study, but it's important to be in part of the life of the church. You know, like I've heard people say I've got enough friends, I don't need any more friends. I'm like, well, great for you, but. But you know, you might be somebody
- [38:07]
Courtney Docter
else needs a friend. Yeah.
- [38:08]
Melissa Krueger
Yes. And if you've got so many, maybe you could connect them to some of yours. Like, I mean, so it's. I think we have to be constantly even thinking relationally, how can I care for the people in my midst neighborly, how can I be thinking about my neighbor, my actual physical neighbor in this? And I think we tend towards self, all of us, we do. And so I think it's good to start with time in the scriptures and time in prayer. It's going to be our guide and it's going to help us discern. And we do grow in discernment on these things. We really, really do. The people who struggle to say no
- [38:49]
Courtney Docter
will get better at it.
- [38:50]
Melissa Krueger
And the people who struggle to say a sacrificial yes will get better at it. But it's going to be through the Lord's work in our hearts. And that's where we want it to come from. Not outside guilt, but inner call. And I think that's when we're going to see it. And I want to park on that for just one minute because sometimes we will be called to sacrifices that other people are not called to. And this is where it's really important for us to understand. I may call, be called to give up this Isaac in my life, that's really costly and you may not, and I can't look lesser on you or pridefully look at me. We have to say, the Lord calls us all to different things. So you know, you may be called to go, you know, serve at the soup kitchen every Sunday. And you could be like, melissa doesn't do it. She's not really very self sacrificial. This is where we have to on these things, discern what is the Lord calling me to. And he may call no one else to do what he's called us to. And so there's gotta be this settledness in our spirit that he is calling me to sacrifice in this way. If we look at the disciples, they had different callings, you know, and we see this in the Gospel of John at the end, right? Peter's like looking over in John and saying, hey, what about him? And he's kind of Jesus, like, hey, hey, we're going to talk about you right now, Peter. And this is what it's going to go like for you. And so I think that's a really important thing. John did End up living a long life. Peter didn't. We don't know what the Lord, what sacrifices the Lord might call us to. We keep our eyes on Jesus and follow him either, you know, in all of these things. And so that for me is kind of the guiding principle is time with the Lord listening in his word. And really we have to be prayerful about these things because everyone's gonna be called to different things. And I think that's what can make it, you know, kind of difficult at times.
- [40:57]
Courtney Docter
Yeah.
- [40:58]
Melissa Krueger
Okay, I want to jump into a really hard topic.
- [41:01]
Courtney Docter
Are you ready? Yep.
- [41:03]
Melissa Krueger
It's really popular right now to have a lot of relational boundaries. And some of these are necessary. You know, we would all say some of these are really necessary. But it's, it's a big part of the self care conversation. How do we think about self care and self sacrifice when it comes to a really difficult person? And I think there are different levels of this. So there can be difficult people in our neighborhood that you're like, yeah, I'm just gonna wave on by. There can be difficult people in our churches, but then we have families and there can be difficult people in our families and then we have our nuclear family. And you know, there's different scriptural calls on honoring your parents even after you've left their home. How do we think through self care boundaries and people in the world of whom we are all difficult?
- [41:59]
Courtney Docter
Well, and I think that this absolutely falls in this conversation because I think that's really where the boundary conversation originated. And I feel like it really kind of started in the 90s, you know, and there was a book about boundaries and Helpful. Right. I mean, there are times that we need to draw boundaries. But I remember even then thinking, I don't think we're called to build brick walls. I think we're called to draw lines in the sand. And people tend to think a boundary is a brick wall, like, I'm done with you, like you're dead to me kind of thing. And I think depending on the, the necessity, the cause of the need for a boundary dictates what that needs to look like. But again, so there's nothing prescriptive here, right? There are, there are situations that you are called to protect your children or other from somebody who is damaging and harmful. I mean, there are all sorts of reasons that the boundaries need to be a lot stronger. But I do think there is a general, a general push towards over boundarying people, you know, over self caring in this, that your needs are the. So again, I'm not talking about these situations where there's abuse or there is great harm at stake. I'm talking about just difficult people that we would probably prefer not to be around. And I think the general, the general push is to say you cut them off. That's a boundary you're drawing in your life and it's all about you. And so I would just say again, it's a discernment issue, it's a wisdom issue. But it is worth asking the Lord about, like what should this look like and where am I protecting and preserving self in a way that is unbiblical, A way that I can actually ask you, Lord, to protect me in this. And I can actually ask you, Lord, to be the one that sees me in this and that understands me in this. And I can ask you to continue doing a good work in me in the midst of this really difficult thing that you're asking me to walk with nuance and with wisdom. And so again, it's knowing yourself. If you have zero boundaries whatsoever with people who are damaging and harmful, then that's not necessarily emotional health. And I had said at the beginning, I think there's this connection, they're not the same thing, but between emotional health and spiritual maturity. And I think that we can be sanctified and not grow in emotional health. But I think it is very hard to grow in emotional health and not be growing in sanctification at the same time. I think that our emotional health actually aids our sanctification. And so to become more self aware, to become more emotionally healthy, to start recognizing where we're demanding someone else meet our needs or, or you know, satisfy this thing in us that only the Lord can satisfy. I think that those are just really great places to go to the psalms and to cry out to the Lord and ask the Lord to meet us in, in all of those situations. So again, it's wisdom. It is not. What we're saying here is not prescriptive. It's going to be. You need to have those conversations in the council of real life friends who know the entirety of the situation. But it is worth considering that a boundary may have pushed self care too far. I think that we see that, yeah,
- [45:37]
Melissa Krueger
I think we have to have our identity so rooted in Christ that we just can be a little less sensitive. I mean, I think there's the reality.
- [45:47]
Courtney Docter
Say that again.
- [45:49]
Melissa Krueger
You know, there's the reality in families in particular. People are not gonna always say things the best way. Like I can remember my grandmother, and this would probably be so inappropriate now. So who knows if this'll make the cut? But she would like. I remember my mom walking in the room. This is so. This is her mother in law.
- [46:12]
Courtney Docter
I know what you're gonna say.
- [46:13]
Melissa Krueger
This is her mother in law. And she would walk in and she'd be like, oh, Anita, you've gained. And like it, it is that, you know, and, and my mom just would be like, oh, what you gonna do with that? I guess I've gained.
- [46:27]
Jared Kennedy
Right.
- [46:28]
Melissa Krueger
You know, but we came down, stayed
- [46:29]
Courtney Docter
in relationship with her.
- [46:31]
Jared Kennedy
Yes.
- [46:31]
Melissa Krueger
And didn't get flustered about it. And this is where we have to be like, okay, you know, whatever people are gonna say, you know, off things, particularly in families that we just at some level have to be like, well, sometimes it's about them, like their issues are coming out, but also just to be so firmly rooted in Christ that we're like, oh, okay, I'm gonna just take that.
- [47:00]
Courtney Docter
And I have
- [47:04]
Melissa Krueger
rather than, you know, we can take such offense. And it is the glory of God to overlook an offense. So I think we need to understand where it's just right and good to overlook an offense and, and, and think the best of others in our lives rather than cases where it is actually dangerous, you know, because of things that have happened to be around people. Those are big differences. And I, I also think when it comes to parents I've watched and, and let me say this. Honoring parents and loving family members does not mean we always do what makes them happy. That's not what we're talking about in self denial. I have a dear friend who I watched love her mom so well, who had. She struggled with drug addiction and she felt a real call from scripture to care for her well and to honor her. Well, that did not mean she always gave her what she wanted. Um, you know, like, especially with financial stuff and things like that. But she did until the day she died. She cared for her and she, she took it really seriously, that call in her life to do even when it was really, really hard to do. And I think there, that's a place we can, we can feel that call to self denial to care for someone when you know it, it was really, it was really difficult. It was really hard. And, and yet she did it. Again, not always what they want, you know, because especially when you're dealing with addiction, I think we have to be really careful that what is loving and best is sometimes not what the person wants in those cases. And that's where we need wisdom, you know, from a community to help us with those things. Courtney, I want to close with one last question. We can be quick because this is just something that nags at me. Hard day. Hard day happens. End of the day. We just recorded eight episodes of deep dish. We're exhausted. I want a little treat. I want some deep dish pizza. Am I selfish? Is this okay? Is that self care? How do we talk about that? Like, I deserve deep dish tonight, Courtney. I deserve it.
- [49:26]
Courtney Docter
Yes. Oh, I do this all the time. I mean, last night I was like, you know what? I'm gonna have a little dessert. Dessert. I'm gonna have a little second piece of dessert. Because it was a long day yesterday. I was tired and I actually as a, so as a child, when my mom would have these days, and it was very rare that she did, but those were the nights we got pizza. And so I was always like, yes, like there is, she would. And I, I, I just remember she was like, you know what, we're just ordering pizza tonight. My mom cooks dinner every night. She was like, we're ordering pizza tonight. My brother and I are like, yes. So I mean, again, right? Like, know yourself. If you are always having a hard day and you always need that little treat at night, whatever that is, or you know, you're just like, I, I need another cruise. I need another whatever it is, I mean, then yeah, you're probably, you're probably running to those things to find your rest. At the same time, boy, isn't a night of pizza just. Especially when you haven't planned it and you're like, I'm not cooking tonight, I'm doing takeout. It's just, it's such a gift from the Lord.
- [50:38]
Melissa Krueger
Yep.
- [50:39]
Courtney Docter
So wisdom and discernment. Again, know yourself. If you are over playing that, then you are probably looking to something to provide your rest that was not intended to. Okay, we're gonna end with one little fun question. So, Melissa, is there some particular type of self care that falls within the biblical definition that you've learned you should never overlook? And I will say first, for me, it's when my heels start getting scaly. You know, I need a pedicure. Like, I need a pedicure. Like when it's like they're dry and scaly and the skin is like, sorry, that's so tmi, but that is, I should not overlook a good pedicure. What about you?
- [51:25]
Melissa Krueger
I'm feeling my heel right now. I was actually going to say, I actually hate the answer I'm going to give right now. And everybody's going to kind of hate me. But this is actually true. I. If I over, like exercise too long, it just doesn't go well. The rest of Melissa does not work well. I mean, like, I can tell emotionally, yet all the things do better. I sleep better at night when I've exercise. I hate this answer. Let me just say that I hate this answer.
- [51:52]
Courtney Docter
Well, it sure does make you look good. Yeah.
- [51:55]
Melissa Krueger
Does it mean. I mean, it's just like. But I do not.
- [51:58]
Courtney Docter
Exercise and healthy eating. I can't overlook those two.
- [52:01]
Melissa Krueger
I didn't, I didn't put healthy eating in there. That one I'm not. That's a bridge too far, Courtney. But it would probably make a difference. But I, I do notice, like, just I can be feeling down or sad about something and I'll go for a walk and get outside in nature and I just, you know, it's. It, it helps. It really does help.
- [52:23]
Courtney Docter
No, you're right. We love you for that answer. And you are right. That's exactly what we should be doing. Okay, well, friends, we hope that you have been encouraged by this episode of the Deep Dish from the Gospel Coalition. If you have, please consider sharing it with others, putting a comment in the notes, liking it, and we will see you next time on the Deep Dish.
- [52:49]
Melissa Krueger
Hey, friends, it's Melissa Krueger here, and I'm so excited that you're listening to the Deep Dish. Wanna stay connected and get even more resources for growing in your faith? We've got a new newsletter for you and we're so excited about it. When you subscribe, you'll get discussion questions for the Deep Dish episodes, memory verses, updates on what's happening with women's initiatives, as well as some of our favorite staff picks. And these are really fun. So head over to tgc.org women and sign up today. We can't wait to connect with you again. That's TGC.org women.