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The Deep Dish
The One Where We Offend Everyone
00:52:32
Courtney Doctor and Melissa Kruger discuss why Christians should not be quick to take offense and how we should live in a culture where people are easily offended.
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- [00:01]
Narrator/Announcer
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- [00:53]
Melissa Krueger
Hey friends, summer is here and one of our favorite little upgrades lately has been Cozy Earth's bamboo sheet set. These sheets are unbelievably soft, breathable, and they actually stay cool through the night, which is like my favorite thing about them.
- [01:08]
Courtney Docter
I mean I love these sheets way more than I should. But we also have to mention the beach towels.
- [01:14]
Melissa Krueger
Okay?
- [01:15]
Courtney Docter
They are plush, they are absorbent, they feel like a serious upgrade from your standard beach towel.
- [01:22]
Melissa Krueger
And Cozy Earth stands behind everything they make with a 10 year warranty and 100 nights of hassle free returns on their bedding. But you're not going to want to return them because they feel so good when you sleep know it's so true.
- [01:35]
Courtney Docter
So they're made from viscose from bamboo, which is breathable, soft and built for summer. So head to cozyearth.com and use our code deep dish for an exclusive 20% off. That code is deep dish get you an exclusive 20% off. And if you see a post purchase survey mention that you heard about Cozy Earth right here, I think so often we want, we want it to be where we're just pointing fingers at everybody like you don't understand and you don't know my hurt and you don't know my story instead of just saying okay, wait a minute, I'm actually not going to be able to change everybody else about this and going back to like their motive isn't even wrong in this. Like they're just either ignorant or unaware, whatever it is. Foreign.
- [02:32]
Melissa Krueger
Hi friends, welcome to the Deep Dish, a podcast from the Gospel Coalition where we love having deep conversations about deep truths. I'm Melissa Krueger and I'm here with my friend and co host, my friend and co host Courtney Docter.
- [02:47]
Courtney Docter
Hey, I am. I can't decide if I'm excited about today's conversation or a little like little fear and trepidation over today's topic. Topic. But what we're going to. And I loved the title, so we don't always come up with the titles, but I thought that it was a great title. The one where we offend everyone because that's what we're going to be talking about. This idea that, you know, we just are living in a time where it just feels like being offended is not only prevalent but incredibly acceptable, almost expected. It's almost like a. It's almost become like a virtue in some ways, which we're going to talk about. Just this idea of being offended or easily offended. And so. And I don't think it's just in kind of the world. I think it's in the church. Absolutely in the church too. So we're going to dive into this.
- [03:41]
Melissa Krueger
Courtney, are you talking about me? I'm feeling kind of like offended that you're directing this to me. No, we are going to try not to offend everyone, hopefully. But I do think this is a really good topic because I do think people are really quick to take offense in our day and age. It can be whether you said the wrong thing on social media or perhaps you didn't post on social media. You know, like, I, I've been. I've. I've been approached about why I didn't say something about something. You know, I'm like, well, I'm offending by not saying. Or you're offending by saying. It could be the way the church announcement was written, somehow it was offensive, you know, or, or maybe what time was picked for the church picnic or whatever. It, it seems like in age we can be looking for ways to be offended. And like you said, I do think it can be a badge of honor. So do you see this kind of as part of a larger victim mentality in our culture? You know, it's. It's like it used. I think it used to be different. You never shared what was hard. And that has its own set of problems. But right now I feel like we've moved into a. You're known by your problems. I don't know. What do you think?
- [04:55]
Courtney Docter
Well, I think that the victim mentality connection is actually really helpful because in some ways that to be offended is to kind of put ourselves in the place of. Of the one who was. Was victimized, you know, So I think that that's actually a really good correlation. But I think both of those victim mentality and, and easily offended and, and I will talk later, probably about like, true victimization, like tr. Like, I'm not talking about that. That's not what we're talking about here. But I do think that the underlying issue is the fact that we are living in a culture that prioritizes self above all things. And so that prioritization of self above everything else and above everybody else, I think is at the root of this. And you, you double that or you compound it by the fact that we are very. Feelings based. Very feelings based. Right now, like your feelings and my feelings about any given situation or topic are preeminent. I mean, and they're not. I mean, I'm saying that's like, I know the cultural moment is like how you feel about this thing is. So you are most important. And your feelings about. Yeah, yeah. So it's you and your feelings. Those are going to be like the preeminent thing. And so I think that that's why, that's why we're seeing it right now. So victimization, easily offended. They kind of all go together. I was, I was remembering 2 Timothy where Paul was writing that in the last days. And, you know, we all know that, like, from the time of the ascension until he comes again, that's what the Bible calls the last days. So it doesn't mean, like, you know, we're saying whatever date, you know, Jesus is coming again, who knows, Please come again, Jesus. But the last days that we're living in. Paul wrote to Timothy and he says that one of the marks of the age are people are going to be lovers of self. I'm like, yes, we see that. And then he says, lovers of money. But then he says, proud, arrogant, abusive, ungrateful. There's other things in that list, but I think those are all wrapped up in, in this, that, that create the situation. To be easily offended, to be a lover of self, to be proud, to be arrogant, to be ungrateful. Those all promote easy offenses.
- [07:24]
Melissa Krueger
Yeah. And we almost foster culturally, don't you think? Like, it's not just, it's encouraged. Like, don't let them talk to you that way. Don't let. Yeah. And there's a right, there's, there's a time, there is a time when someone's saying something inappropriate, like there are certain things we shouldn't say to other people. There's a rightness to, hey, you shouldn't, you shouldn't be allowed to say certain things. But I think as a culture, we're kind of fostering. She looked at you weird. You should be offended. You know, like Everything becomes offense or just the. We're so centered on me that we think, how could they not know not to say that to me? You know, and we look around and it's this. But it's just like you said, it's lover of self that's making us kind of look through all the lens of that hurt me that, you know, offended me. Well, let me ask you this. What is the Bible? Let's think about what the Bible. I think it's a good place to start. What does the Bible talk about? Taking offense. Because it's actually surprising how much it's in there when we start to look at some of these passages. Like one is Proverbs 10:12. Hatred stirs up strife, but love covers all offenses. And then I thought this one was convicting even this morning. Whoever covers an offense seeks love, but he who repeats the matters separates close friends. So here's an interesting thing. How do you see when we're offended that we tend to repeat it?
- [08:59]
Courtney Docter
Oh, we love. I mean, it's. To be offended by yourself is not gratifying. You know, we want other. I mean, it's actually. I mean that actually to be offended by myself is actually. I think what we're going to get to. It's this idea of. I use the word absorb. Like, I think we're actually called to absorb offenses. And so here where Scripture talks about it being covering, I think that the, The. The other way to think about that is, can I bear this alone? Can I just. I can't always help the fact that I might feel hurt or, or even offended about something. But this idea that I don't have to go repeat it to everybody. I think it's the. It's in the repeating that it becomes this. This thing. But it's just not gratifying to be. I mean, that. That calls. Like, I have to dig deep into humility and love of others for me not to go repeat it to someone else. I remember one time I was in counseling and the counselor was saying something like, well, you need to confront this person over that. And I thought to myself, I don't actually have to. I can live with this for the rest of my life and not tell someone else. Like, I don't have to seek my kind of healing or peace, you know, whatever it is, through the repeating the matter to other people, even if it's the person who offended me. So I, I just think, like this idea of it, again, it goes back to the prioritization of self. Like my feelings and me are the most important thing in any given situation, instead of, gosh, what if, what if I'm not the most important thing in any given situation? So I think this idea of repeating itself. But I was also thinking just back to script scriptural references about First Corinthians 13, which is this beautiful chapter on love. And it tells us the. The first thing Paul says is, is that love is two things, patient and kind. And some translations for the word patient use use the word long suffering. And even in Bible study last night I was talking about somebody used the word long suffering. And I was talking about that word like that's actually ultimately this is true about God, that he is long suffering. And so this idea that you bear with somebody for a long time over and over, there are, there are repeated things that require patience, that require, you know, and there is suffering in it, but the fact that the Lord does that with us, like long suffering. So I just thought, like, that is such a good word for us as we talk about being easily offended. Like, can we be long suffering with people? And then it goes on to say that it bears. That love bears all things. Gosh, I mean, can I bear. Yeah, it's just, it's exactly what you were saying, Melissa, about covering. Can we bear with. What were you gonna say?
- [12:03]
Melissa Krueger
Well, yeah, I was just thinking, I, I do think part of our take offense culture is you're supposed to confront in, in our Christian world, you're supposed to confront sin every time you see it. And I, you know, and, and it actually says when someone's caught in sin, you know, so, so like one off sins. I mean, there are sometimes one off sins need to be confronted. Look, you know, I mean, like that, that's what I'm saying. But like a one off. Oh, you know, somebody did something that was offensive or even sinful against me. Like, I think we can't, we can call it, but sometimes we can just forgive it. Yeah, I think of Jesus on the cross. He just said, forgive them. They know not what they do, because sometimes they're not even aware that they're sinning against you. So that's also a whole different Cate. Sometimes people just have no idea. But, but I do think, you know, when we even think about when am I supposed to confront this in another person? Am I looking at, are they caught in a sin pattern or am I just offended? That's a big difference. You know, like one is looking toward the other person and one is looking towards self. And we kind of want payment because you hurt me or whatever. And so we. I think that's a helpful way to different. I've tried to differentiate between the two. Was I just hurt by that? But they're not act. They weren't actually being sinful, you know? You know, like, there's a big difference when someone's like, yeah, I don't really love your pillows. They're not sinful. To tell you that, like, I know
- [13:41]
Courtney Docter
I had someone take me to lunch one time, and the whole purpose of the lunch was to tell me that basically they just did not like my personality. And I was like, oh. And she was confessing to me bitterness in her heart. And I was like, man, girl, you could have. You could have kept that to yourself. Like, that's actually between you and the Lord. Like, I'm so sorry. But even this idea of, like, quick to confront sin, oh, my word. I want to be quick to confront my own sin in myself. Like, that's where. That's where focus on self is good. You know, Psalm 139 says, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me in the way everlasting. Like, that is the prayer we should be praying. Like, lord, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me in the way everlasting. Like, I want him to refine those offensive ways out of me. But you're right. There's such a big difference between, like, if. If somebody is caught in sin, that's a totally different issue. But I was thinking Proverbs 18:19 says, A brother or sister offended is more unyielding than a strong city. And I just was like, is that not true? And that's kind of what we do. We, like, build these walls. Like, a strong city has a lot of walls around it. And when we're offended. So when we're the offended one, you know, we build these walls and we usually punish them with the silent treatment or distance. Or, like, you no longer. I mean, that's that strong city of, like, you're not getting in again. Like, you are dead to me. It's just, like, because we were offended.
- [15:17]
Melissa Krueger
You know what's ironic about that? You keep building those walls, you're suddenly alone.
- [15:21]
Courtney Docter
Yeah.
- [15:22]
Melissa Krueger
It's kind of a warning, right? Like, you might become a city of one if you're offended by everyone. Like, and I think we see this in the church. Okay, we both worked in women's ministry. How do we see this on the ground? And, like. And we can. We can talk in generalities, but we've also felt it. You know, where do You. Where do you see, you know, when we're together as women, like, we're hearing the quick to take offense because sometimes it's happening when the other person's not there. We're just hearing the chitter chatter. I can't believe she said that to me. Or, yeah, well, they went to lunch together and didn't invite me. You know what, what are some of those areas that we can get offended by as women that maybe we should choose to overlook?
- [16:10]
Courtney Docter
So I loved how you were. You started off by talking about we can be offended by what people say and by what they don't say, which is astounding to me. Like. Like this social media thing where people are paying attention to what you don't say. Like, oh, my word. Like, we have got to have more to do with our time than pay attention to what people are not saying, you know, But. But I think in the church and just in real life relationships, so often this idea of maybe not being appreciated, like. Like, she did not really notice all I was doing. Or I think it can happen in families. You know, there have been times that I've been, like, at the kitchen sink doing dishes. And in my mind, I'm just so offended that I'm the one doing the dishes. Like, I can't believe I am the one standing here doing the dishes again. And then, you know, the Lord is usually very kind to bring to mind, you know, oh, well, did you mow the yard? Did you, you know, change the laundry? Did you. I don't. Whatever it is, like, and right now in my life, we've got this multifamily, multi generational living situation going on in my house because we've had two adult children and their families move back in. And, you know, it's easy. I'm sure every one of us could silently be thinking about how underappreciated we are instead of. So I just, I think that those are the way, like, we didn't get invited to something. So sometimes it's the. It's the thing that is said. Like, I can't believe she said that to me. And sometimes it's just like, what people don't say. Like, they didn't say thank you, or they didn't say I did a good job, or they didn't. They weren't appreciative. And sometimes I think you've said this before. It's just that they say things wrong, you know, and so, like, talk about that. Like, how do you. How does love cover a multitude of offenses? By assuming motive Yeah, I think, I'll be honest.
- [18:11]
Melissa Krueger
I think in the church, I have watched this happen. I'm sure you've watched this happening too. We do like a one up upper on suffering or something. So like someone's pouring out their heart, you know, they're sharing about a really hard thing that happened. I, I just remember this through the years watching this happen in ministry. So I'm not even going to say it happened to me, but I can remember watching like someone share about like the loss of a parent or the miscarriage or something like that. And then another, another person come in and they're talking about like the loss of their pet. Now, you know, like we love our pets and things, but like sometimes it's this, they just miss the mark. And I'm sitting there, watch it happen and I'm thinking, you know, if I was that woman who just lost her parent and this person's talking about losing their dog, I'd feel kind of offended. Like I'm w. I, I haven't actually experienced that myself. I've watched it happen and I'm like, oh. And it is just a time to absorb because the person who me meant well. Yeah, I mean, who was sharing their loss, they were trying to enter in. But we often just really do a clumsy job of it. And I know I do a clumsy job of it, so it's helped. You know, I think, I think part of it is self reflecting on, oh, I didn't say that very well to that person who was dealing with grief. You know, we try to fix things or we try to skirt past it and be like, it'll be fine, it'll be fine. And that can be really offensive to, to people. And, and so I think it's learning that. I think one of the most helpful things we can do when offend offended is pause and ask ourselves, when do I do this to other people? Maybe it's exactly time for us to learn. Oh. Huh. That wasn't very helpful when I said that to someone like that. I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna try to do this differently. So it actually can be a real learning experience for us when we feel the barb or we feel the, that was just unthoughtful and try to be more thoughtful with other people. So it can be a good, a good way to think through it. But I think one thing you really hit on, I think one of the places we're most offended is in our, in our, whoever we're living with, whether it's a Spouse, a roommate, children, parents. You know, it. It just is interesting how easy it is to get offended because it's like you're sin rubs up against my sin. And your bad habits actually now really impact me. And so it's like, I'm offended because you left your underwear on the floor. I'm deeply offended because that means you weren't thinking about me. Right. You know, I mean, like, it's like. And it just rubs and you're exactly right. We just get. It's. When I'm normally the more tired I am, I get more self absorbed. And especially when it comes to chores and things around the house that need doing, I think that's when we're most likely to be like, you clearly don't care about me. Like, it becomes this, if you cared about me, you would put your shoes in the place I asked you to put your shoes. Yeah.
- [21:29]
Courtney Docter
And so we build those strong walls and we're like, you're getting the silent treatment over that?
- [21:33]
Melissa Krueger
Yes, yes. And it isolates us from one another. So rather than maturely saying, hey, I'm really tired today and I just. Could you help me clean up and say it again? And we don't want to ask or whatever, but just being part of this is like learning how to maturely, even deal with our needs and our wants. So rather than like, offense, isolates, communication leans in, and that's what we need to do. So sometimes we do need to share the things that are bothering us, you know, especially in whomever you're living with. Like, I know my kids, you know, they're all living with roommates right now. One of my children told me they just put up a video camera to see who's not cleaning up the dishes.
- [22:20]
Courtney Docter
No. No. Okay. I. Yeah, yeah.
- [22:24]
Melissa Krueger
It's a new world. It's a new world.
- [22:26]
Courtney Docter
I'm like, no, that's a way to find out world.
- [22:29]
Melissa Krueger
But it, you know, it's like, take
- [22:31]
Courtney Docter
the video camera down. Take the video camera down. Oh, my word. Crazy town.
- [22:39]
Melissa Krueger
But then, but then, because everybody's always like, oh, it wasn't me, it wasn't me, it wasn't me, or whatever. So now they're like, we're gonna find out who it was. But I do think there's this sense where sometimes though, what you do like. And I can remember this even with my kids, and you know, when they don't do the dishes right, or they don't do it, sometimes you just absorb it. You just take on the extra work at work. Maybe it's in Your workplace. Sometimes you just take on the extra work and you say, the Lord sees. I'm not going to be offended by this. I'm just going to give here and I'm going to give to the Lord. And I think what you were saying even earlier is, well, I'm okay with cleaning the dishes as long as everyone's calling me Saint Melissa and like, thank you mom, or thank you wife. Yeah, like, whatever. And so it is. We can be offended by so many different things in our world today. And so. Okay, go ahead.
- [23:35]
Courtney Docter
No, I just wanted to ask you, as we were thinking about that. So there are things that are offensive, right? And so, so we're not talking about situations where, you know, there is, there is obvious abuse or even. I was thinking about it, you know, there are like sometimes we might be in a situation where somebody tells a joke that. Sorry, a joke, you know, and it is offensive and I want to act offended. I want to say something in that moment. Like that is not, not an okay thing to say. So there are, there are actually offensive situations. Right? And there are just even like you're talking about this lack of self awareness. There are times that, whether it's people in our families, our church or communities where people are insensitive and offensive and they're, they're kind of just. Either they're either blind to their own offensiveness or they just kind of, for whatever reason in their own story has caused, you know, them to be broken in this way that they like to be offensive. I know a couple people like that, that there's just like, there's joy in being offensive. And it's like, so what do you do? Like when somebody is. Say it's just insensitive. Say you experience somebody's lack of self awareness and it really is insensitive to your own story or to your own hurt or to your own just soul. Like what, what are our options? So when we are truly offended about something, where we are hurt by something, what are our options and what is the better one?
- [25:26]
Melissa Krueger
Yeah, that's good one. I think it depends on a few things. You know, there is answer fool according to his folly and you'll be like him yourself. I mean, so, so there are some people who just love offending and, and they're, they might not be work like it might. The conversation might not be helpful. You know, some people just are like, they're gonna be like, no, that's just me. You just deal with me. You know this. I'm gonna. I'm a truth teller. Is what they're gonna say, you know, or whatever. And so I, and, and even the depth of your relationship with someone who, you know, I think that's really dependent upon it. So, like, look, if it's you and me and, like, we're real friends, and if I'm like, hey, Courtney, you know, when you make fun of I don't know what, it actually hurts my feelings.
- [26:14]
Courtney Docter
You would.
- [26:15]
Melissa Krueger
Here's what I know about you. You'd be like, oh, my goodness, I'm so sorry. You know, and it, it would be worth it to enter in and say, hey, just so you know, that's actually a sensitive place for me. You don't mean harm by it, like, because I'm seeing the good in you, but I just want you to know it hurts. It hurts me. I'm really sensitive about, you know, the fact that my hair's frizzy and you make jokes about it or whatever, like, whatever silly thing.
- [26:44]
Courtney Docter
For the record, for the record, I don't.
- [26:47]
Melissa Krueger
She doesn't. And I can't think of a good example because you actually don't do this
- [26:51]
Courtney Docter
because my hair is frizzy.
- [26:53]
Melissa Krueger
And you're not an. You're not a person out to offend. So I think, I think this does. You know, there is a question of, am I the person to talk to them about this issue? And sometimes we are the person to talk to them about an issue like, hey, you seem to love controversy in a way, and you may not know what your words are doing to affect people. I think there are certain issues, like sometimes if people are saying, like if a bunch of women are together and they're saying how bad their husbands are, or if a bunch of men are saying how women are always this way, I think there's a right place to go and say, hey, I think you may not know. It's really offensive when you say that, you know, But I like to do it one on one. I like to do it when the situation's calmed. Try to really remember, hey, when you said it this way, here's why it offended. And so I think there really is a place for that.
- [27:53]
Courtney Docter
So often the places that we're truly offended, truly hurt are places that are born out of our story. So I even remember after my father in law died very suddenly of a heart attack, I was so. I was really offended when people would use the phrase serious as a heart attack. It was, you know, But I. I've seen other areas in my life like that where it's like, oh, all of a sudden I Have an experience with something and then that makes me very sensitive to. So, you know, I think for, you know, anybody who has experienced infertility or infant loss of any kind, you know, then when there's a group of women sitting around talking about how hard their babies are, you know, they can be hurt by that or offended if somebody, you know, like you said, a group of women are sitting around talking about how horrible their husbands are and then our single friends are sitting there and thinking, well, they're like these things that are in our lives that, that whatever it is, you know, children with special needs, all of a sudden you become very attune to that particular special need. And people's ignorance on that can be very offensive. And so I think even being kind of self aware and humble enough to realize, okay, my story is actually playing a big part in what I'm feeling right now and growing in the ability to say like my kind of back to what I said in the beginning, like my healing, my hope, my joy, my peace is not going to come through getting the rest of the world to stop talking about this issue in that way. That's actually not where I think so often we want it to be, where we're just pointing fingers at everybody. Like, you don't understand and you don't know my hurt and you don't know my story. Instead of just saying, okay, wait a minute, I'm actually not going to be able to change everybody else about this and going back to like their motive isn't even wrong in this. Like they're just either ignorant or unaware, whatever it is. But, but that I actually compress into like the gospel in Christ for my healing in that, that, that he's the one that understands, he's the one that sees, he's the one that knows and, and he's the one that suffers. Like he enters into our suffering. And so I don't know, there's, that's kind of a half baked idea. But, but I do think.
- [30:25]
Melissa Krueger
No, I think it's a really good one. Like I, I actually think what you just said is really like one of those we need to press pause on. Because in some ways what I realize we're expecting other people to be is to be all knowing. We're expecting them to be God do you know, like we're expecting them to be so aware of our needs and so aware of what we're going through. And you know, they're just another little finite being running around and they often don't remember, like you know, we don't remember. Like, and so, you know, you get in conversations, I leave a conversation sometimes I'm like, I totally forgot to ask about that huge thing going on in her life. And she doesn't think I care and I really care. I just forgot in that moment when we were in that conversation. And so I think what you're saying and reminding us of is there is one who always knows, who always sees, who always remembers, and he is always there and always caring. And he's that one person that we can go to and know. He will know every detail of our situation and always be there with comfort and love and care. And we're maybe wanting from others what only God can give in some sense. So I think that's just a really profound point that you kind of brought us to in this that it's good to park on. And so we're going to go to a break from our sponsors really quickly so we can keep thinking about that as you listen to what our sponsors have to tell us. Thanks, friends.
- [32:06]
Courtney Docter
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- [32:55]
Melissa Krueger
Foreign. Publisher of a book that I'm so excited about Dust to Dust Aging Wisely in an Anti Aging World by Jen Wilkin the world tells us at every turn that aging is a steep descent into irrelevance, one to be avoided at all cost. But Scripture reveals a markedly different pattern of life, one of increasing value that cause us to embrace our age and number our days. Rightly exploring the changing realities of caregiving abilities and potential, Jen helps us to trace God's design at every stage. Pick up a copy of Dust to Dust wherever books are sold or visit crossway.orgdust to learn how to get a 30% off with a free Crossway plus account. Hey, friends, welcome back. We've been talking about being offended, offending others. And I think all of us want to be women, hopefully, who don't offend others. But sometimes, just because we are Christians, people are offended by us. Courtney, how have you seen that? What's the reality of that in our world? And how do we live that out as Christians, knowing sometimes I recognize the very things I believe about the Bible are just deeply hurtful to some people. Like, they look at what I believe. I mean, just the exclusive nature of Jesus, the fact that I believe there's one way to heaven and I believe there's a literal hell, that is very offensive. So how do we hold these views that some people will think make us hateful, spiteful people just for what we. We have? How do we, how do we sit in that, that we're going to offend just by being Christians?
- [34:49]
Courtney Docter
Well, and I think so, I don't think we're just going to offend by being Christians. I think the, like you said, it's the message that can be offensive. And to remember that, like, the person is not. I mean, Paul goes out of his way to be like, like, do not be offensive. Do not be offensive. But then he's also like, the gospel is incredibly offensive. Like, he holds it. And so even to know what is being offensive. So, you know, Romans 9:3, he's like, I am putting this stumbling block in front of people, and it is called the rock of offense in Romans 9:33. So it is exactly what you were talking about. The offensive thing of the gospel is its exclusivity. The fact that we don't say, yeah, there's a lot of ways to God. There's a lot of, you know, different paths to, you know, Jesus was clear. He is the way, the truth, the life. And no one comes to the Father except through him. And, and we do believe in this.
- [35:54]
Melissa Krueger
Yeah.
- [35:55]
Courtney Docter
Eternal place of, of separation from God that's called hell. And it's, it's awful. Right. And so that offends people. But we are not meant to be offensive. I mean, he says, give no offense. He became all things to all people so that, you know, he says so that I could win some. And so there's this difference between being offended by the gospel and being offended, offensive in our proclamation of the gospel. And I think what we're seeing, and maybe it's always been this way, you know, you and I talk all the time that we don't want to overplay this Our current cultural moment, because nothing is new under the sun.
- [36:37]
Narrator/Announcer
But.
- [36:38]
Courtney Docter
So maybe it's always been this way. But I do think that, you know, we've talked before in, in previous episodes about the difference between primary, secondary and tertiary issues. First, second and third place issues. And so first place issues are their gospel. They're central to the gospel. They are the idea that Jesus was, you know, born of a virgin, he lived a sinless life, he died and raised again. He was fully God, fully man, the Trinity. Like, these are issues that, if that's where the offense is coming, then that is the offense of the gospel. But we're not even separating and being offended over secondary issues like, oh, you don't believe in infant baptism or you'd only believe. And you know, whatever it is. Like we're, we're offended over these third place tertiary issues, like how we vote, how we decide to, you know, breast or bottle feed, how we decide to educate our children. You know, I mean, there are just so many of these issues that have become incredible, like places. They're the stumbling blocks of offense. And scripture is like, that is not meant to be the place that we're offended. Like, you have freedom to educate your children differently than I did. You have freedom to, you know, to choose whether you vaccinate or not. Like, these are not the areas that we're meant to be offended over. And so it's just interesting, like, we have flipped the script what scripture tells us to not be at all offended over. We are extreme.
- [38:26]
Melissa Krueger
Or what we give offense for. Like, what you're almost saying is like, what we're willing to hold so hard that it might offend someone else. So yes, like, what are you will willing to hold on to? And if it's like your schooling choice, is that worth offending others for? Or it, you know, or whatever it might be. I mean, I can remember years ago in some ways and gets back to kind of like our marks of righteousness episode. So where we kind of feel our pride is where we're willing to offend others in some sense. And I can, you know, there was just a season where it was almost like more godly, where you chose to live in town, you know, like the
- [39:11]
Courtney Docter
suburbs were totally out.
- [39:13]
Melissa Krueger
You know, if you're living in the suburbs, you're maybe not a Christian because, I mean, where are you sharing the gospel if you're in the suburbs or what? Yeah, I mean, like, and it was just, um. And you know, and so one. Is that where you want to stake your claim? So it's also about where we're gonna choose to be. Like, my life might be offensive. And so on certain issues, you know, when, when my views on sexuality are extremely offensive in our world today.
- [39:40]
Courtney Docter
Right.
- [39:40]
Melissa Krueger
Like, I believe sex should be between a man and a woman in the context of marriage. Okay. That's like, everyone's out. Like, I mean like, and so it's an offensive view because, you know, like, people just don't like it. But I'll take a stand there because it's the biblical view. And so we've got to say where are we willing to take the stand on what God says is important and where, where, you know, where is it? And on certain issues that even though we may think biblically, like baptism or something, we kind of, we kind of choose to live at peace with each other and not get completely offended all the time. But there are some issues where we have to realize my view on this is going to be offensive to people. And that's hard.
- [40:27]
Courtney Docter
It is. But, but here's where I think so many Christians go wrong. And that is they say so like, amen to what you just said. We hold these views that are offensive and then therefore they become offensive with their views.
- [40:42]
Melissa Krueger
Views.
- [40:43]
Courtney Docter
So I think like the difference is I want to hold my offensive view deeply and truly and biblically, but then I want to move towards people in a non offensive way with my offensive view. Does that make sense?
- [40:59]
Melissa Krueger
Yep.
- [41:00]
Courtney Docter
You know, that we're moving towards people instead of like, you know, if so, yes, I mean, amen. Like our biblical sexual ethic is offensive in the world today. But what does that mean that you do with your same sex neighbors, you know, that are, you know, two women married? And does that mean that you just build your walls, right? Like you build your wall between them? Because my view is that that is wrong. I am therefore going to distance myself from those people. Or do you say my deeply held view and the gospel actually compels me to move towards people. And so I just think there's a difference between an offensive view and being offensive with your views.
- [41:45]
Melissa Krueger
That's right. That's right. I think what we have to expect is that even if we are kind and loving and patient and move toward, some will reject us just because of the message that we hold dear like that. So, so that, and I think that's what's difficult for a people pleaser. You know, I think we have to accept that sometimes we become representative of the biblical story and that's hard. So we do become basically that representative of the rock of Offense. You know, that there's one way. There's, you know, and everything, but our. Our. But we should be the most understanding of anyone who doesn't actually hold our views, because what we know is that the things of the Spirit can't be discerned without the Spirit. So in a lot of ways, we should be the most understanding of why non Christians do not get my worldview. I totally get why they don't get my worldview, because the only reason I have my worldview is because the Spirit has opened my eyes to see the things of God and then empowered you
- [42:49]
Courtney Docter
to live according to it.
- [42:50]
Melissa Krueger
Yes, yes. So there's no, like, oh, I have a better view than you. It's. I've been changed. And so I should be able to bear very patiently with, you know, views that are against Christianity in a lot of ways and actually understand why they're offended at my views. Like, we can hold that tension because, you know, I mean, the scripture actually calls not, like, a person who doesn't know Christ blind. I was blind, and now I see. And so it's kind of like looking at someone and saying, how can you see the things of God without the Spirit of God? You can't.
- [43:27]
Courtney Docter
Exactly.
- [43:28]
Melissa Krueger
And so we should be highly unoffendable by our culture. And so, unfortunately, those Christians were often very offended by our culture. And it's right to care about the things of God. Right. I mean, Jesus went in the temple, and when he saw the temple changers, he was very upset about what was happening. So it is right to care about what pleases God. We don't want to. We don't want to say that's not important. But the way we do it needs to be really thoughtful and with compassion to those who don't know God.
- [43:59]
Narrator/Announcer
Yeah.
- [43:59]
Melissa Krueger
You know, in a lot of ways.
- [44:00]
Courtney Docter
Oh, that's so good. That's so good, Melissa. And so true. I mean, I've said before, like, yeah, without the Spirit, your eyes aren't opened. And without the Spirit, you can't even align your life with, like, the. The biblical mandates. Like, it's just. It's impossible. It requires the Spirit to both see it and. And do it. Well, I want to ask you a question. Okay. So we all know people that are just easily offended. Right. And very prickly. Very. I kind of feel like I'm walking on eggshells, like, tiptoeing around people like that. Because I just know, like, I'm gonna say the wrong thing. I'm gonna say the right thing the wrong way. I'm Going to. Like, I just. I just know that they are going to be easily offended. So what should, should we be offended by their offendability? Like, should. Should their offensiveness or their ease, their ease at which they're offended be offensive to us? Like, what do we do with people that are. That are like that? Because we all know those people. And Lord, please help us not be those people. Like, please help me not be those people.
- [45:04]
Melissa Krueger
I don't like this question, Courtney, because I'll be honest, I'm a little bit tempted to run the other way. Like, easily offended people kind of scare me because I'm like, oh, I mean, I really hate to be offensive.
- [45:16]
Courtney Docter
Exhaust me. I know, yes.
- [45:18]
Melissa Krueger
And it's like, oh, that hurt, that hurt, that hurt. You know, and you just. So I have to lean in and be willing to just take it and just to remember the Lord how much I must offend the Lord. And he patiently and tenderly deals with me, and he keeps welcoming me back. That's grace and that's walking with others with graciousness. And I need to do that better. Cause my temptation when I'm around an easily offended person who seems highly sensitive is to just think, yeah, I'm gonna call a different friend to go do that, you know, and that's, that's, you know, I need to remember a lot of time, like you said earlier, an easily offended person comes with a story that's really hard. And perhaps this is the place where we need to lean in and love, you know, with just a deep graciousness. And I feel really convicted about that. Like, I need to do that. Well, like you said, absorb it. Just absorb it and keep loving, you know. And what do you think about when you think about easily offended people?
- [46:34]
Courtney Docter
Yeah, I think it is exhausting. And I don't want to be that person because you just think, oh, my word, like, I can't say or do anything right. And you just feel like, yeah, I mean, there they're looking for. It's the self absorption too, of being easily offended. I mean, that. That self prioritization of, like, you're the most important person in the room and what you're feeling is going to, you know, win the day. It just, it gets exhausting after a while. And so I think even like this idea of knowing. So knowing what to do when we have offended somebody because there are times that we offend people, that it is so clear these. The only response is repentance and to move towards that person like that is. That is clear. But there are other Times where you just start seeing this pattern of, like, actually, what I did wasn't. I mean, it's hard because you can't, you know, you can't dictate how somebody else feels about it. But there are those times where, you know, that it shouldn't. I think we err on the side of repentance and moving towards, by far. But I think there are those situations where maybe this idea, you know, Ephesians 4:15, that we speak the truth in love and we help each other grow up in Christ. I think there is a time and certain relationships where we can move towards that person and even have this conversation about, you know, maybe send them a copy of the podcast and say, hey, can we. I'm just kidding. I'm totally kidding. But, you know, this idea of moving towards somebody to have the conversation of, like, I do feel like I walk on eggshells around you, and I would like to not. I want you to know, like, my heart is for you. I am not. I am not trying to be offensive. I do not want to hurt you. I will at times, and I want you to come to me. But I would also like to have the foundation of a relationship with you that we're not tiptoeing around each other because we're so fragile, you know, and so I think there are times to have those conversations. But I think this idea of, like, that we can offend God, like we do. Scripture talks about that. That he is. I had written down Isaiah 59, that the Lord saw that there was no justice and he was offended. Ooh. Like, I think about, you know, how when I feel offended, and then to think like, the Lord, in righteousness, in truth, in purity and holiness, is offended by our sins. I mean, that should humble us in. In a way that. That nothing else, that nothing else actually does. But what about you? What do you think about Christlike ways to respond when we've. When we've offended somebody?
- [49:41]
Melissa Krueger
Yeah. I think one thing that you just said that I do want to even hit on a little bit more. When you were talking about a person who's sensitive and, you know, you kind of lean in a little bit and confront some of that. Normally, if it's a big pattern, it won't be just to us. So, you know, for instance, if the person comes and be like, courtney looked at me weird again. I mean, sometimes you can do it in a situation that's not about you. And so I could be like, no, I know Courtney. She loves you. You know, sometimes I do think there's an opportunity with a overly sensitive, offensive person to do it on an issue because then they won't think it was just that you felt sensitive. Like, sometimes it feels like you're sensitive that you were sensitive. And so there, there sometimes is an opportunity to speak truth. You know that earlier verse when it said, you know, basically when you're offended, you're going to go tell someone else? Well, when we're the person who's being told about the offense, there is an opportunity in that moment to just say, hey, you know, maybe that's not what they meant, like, and try to diffuse the situation. I think there's, there's a way. But I.
- [50:53]
Courtney Docter
That's good.
- [50:54]
Melissa Krueger
But I think, I think when we've offended someone. Yeah, I'm with you. Like, we just need to be quick to repent. I mean, the Lord's Prayer sets us up for this. Forgive us our debtors as we forgive our debts. No, forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors. Golly, what's my problem? Okay, I'm winning today.
- [51:13]
Courtney Docter
It's like when I told Shelby one time, I said, the Lord came not to. Not to serve, but to be served. I totally flipped that verse on its head.
- [51:23]
Melissa Krueger
Yes. So, yeah, but really, when you think about it, I think I'm constantly shocked by how much I need to ask for forgiveness and how much I need to forgive in the Christian life. And yet the Lord's prayer, which is to be kind of our model prayer, presupposes this. You know, it sets us up to realize, oh yeah, we're probably really going to be offensive to people. We're going to sin. And we're actually not just going to be offensive. We're going to sin against one another. Like, we're going to make mistakes. And so we need to be quick repenters and just remember there's no condemnation, for those who are in Christ Jesus. Like, the reason we can repent quickly is it's already all been covered. And so we just need to be quick to see, hey, maybe I did make a mistake here. Maybe I didn't notice everything because there are sins of omission and commission. So maybe I did fail to see you're really hurting and I should apologize for that. We are so quick to defend selves rather than just be like, oh yeah, I could have done that better. And it's okay that we're not perfect. And I think we, we want to self justify even though we have a God who's already justified us. And so I think that, that, that that helps us let go of. Of some of this and. And then really give forgiveness freely. And give it freely because we've been freely forgiven. And I am so often like that unmerciful servant who's been forgiven this huge debt, and yet I've got this little debt against me, and I wanna throttle the person, you know, And I see that when I read that passage, I'm like, oh, help me, Jesus, help me to remember what I've been forgiven. So I. Help me remember how offenses I've been to you so I will be offended less by others.
- [53:09]
Courtney Docter
Oh, that's so good. And keep praying. Psalm 139, like, see if there is an offensive way. And, like, show it to me. Like, show me. Like, let's just be women that keep praying so that. So that we truly are less offensive. Okay, so sometimes our offenses are just at annoyances, and we all have little pet peeves that. So this is how we're going to end. This is just a fun question to end on. But we all have these little annoyances that turn into pet peeves. And there is a connection there between, like, that's what offends us. So I want to know. Melissa Krueger. I want to know an annoyance or a pet peeve that when you recognize it in yourself, you just laugh at yourself. Like, why am I like this? Because I have so many of those that I'm like, what is wrong with me?
- [53:57]
Melissa Krueger
I don't know that I laugh at myself, yet I might be feeling justified in it. Okay. When you're driving along the road and you know there's like a road, a lane closure, and everybody's nicely getting over.
- [54:09]
Courtney Docter
Yes.
- [54:10]
Melissa Krueger
And then there's always the one person who drives to the front of the line and cuts in front at the last minute. I'm deeply offended by him. I'm deeply.
- [54:18]
Courtney Docter
I am too. I am.
- [54:21]
Melissa Krueger
I'm like, you are a bad person.
- [54:24]
Courtney Docter
Or if you're getting off of an airplane and you know, it's like, there's a rule here and everybody knows it. Do not act like you do not know that you wait for the rose in front of you. Oh, I am. I mean, and I just sit there and fume. Like, whether I'm behind that person on the road or I'm behind that person on the airplane, I'm just like, like, do you not know the rules? Do you not know? And then I'm like, no, you do know the rules. And you just prioritized self.
- [54:52]
Melissa Krueger
Yes.
- [54:53]
Courtney Docter
And it irritates.
- [54:56]
Melissa Krueger
Do you have any others that that are yours.
- [54:59]
Courtney Docter
Or I, when somebody is like, I'll clean the kitchen because right now, I've told you, you know, we've got all these people living here, wonderful people. And when the kitchen, like, to me, the kitchen is not clean until the sink is also cleaned. So the garbage disposal has been run, the, you know, like, it's wiped down. And so when I come in and yes, the dishes have been put away, but the sink still has, like, food in it, I'm like, what is wrong with you people?
- [55:27]
Melissa Krueger
Like, yeah, there's a moral failing there. There's a more the cheese is now sticking harder to my sink because you didn't wipe it out.
- [55:37]
Courtney Docter
My word. And then I see that in myself and I do, I, I, I do laugh at myself because I am ridiculous in probably 98 of my life. Okay, friends, we hope that you have been encouraged by this episode of the Deep Dish from the Gospel Coalition. And yeah, if so, consider sharing it with others and use it as a platform for conversations. But leave us comments. We'd love to know the silly things that avenge you, but also how you are growing in your ability to absorb and overlook and cover the offenses of others.
- [56:10]
Melissa Krueger
Oh, yeah.
- [56:11]
Courtney Docter
See you next time.
- [56:15]
Melissa Krueger
Hey, friends, it's Melissa Krueger here, and I'm so excited that you're listening to the Deep Dish. Want to stay connected and get even more resources for growing in your faith? We've got a new newsletter for you, and we're so excited about it. When you subscribe, you'll get discussion questions for the Deep Dish episodes, memory verses, updates on what's happening with women's initiatives, as well as some of our favorite staff picks. And these are really fun. So head over to tgc.org women and sign up today. We can't wait to connect with you again. That's TGC.org women.