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The Deep Dish
Worship Is More than a Playlist (with Emily Jensen)
00:49:06
Melissa and Courtney talk with Emily Jensen about how to broaden our understanding of worship so that we respond to God’s worth even in the mundane moments of life.
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- [00:02]
Alexandrian Institute Representative
For centuries, Alexandria shaped how the Church read Scripture, confessed Christ, and engaged the world. It was from this city that Athanasius and Cyril defended the faith, reading scripture according to its own logic, articulating the faith with clarity, and equipping others to do the same. The Alexandrian Institute continues this legacy world class theological education rooted in the great tradition. The we offer rigorous pathways at every level from The Pew to PhD pillars, certificates for those beginning their journey, accredited Master's degrees with personal mentorship in Theology and Theological ethics, and a PhD research program for aspiring scholars. Whether you are seeking deeper theological grounding, preparing for ministry or pursuing advanced scholarship, we would love to explore how the Alexandrian Institute might equip you for your calling. Start the conversation@alexandrianinstitute.org.
- [01:01]
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- [02:09]
Emily Jensen
Our even sufficiency for worship is in Christ. He was the perfect worshiper on our behalf. So it's not about I had this perfect prayer. I had this. You know I have this beautiful voice. I did everything today with this perfect heart of submission and worship. It's it's about gratitude for the One who allowed us to come be in the presence of the Lord.
- [02:42]
Courtney Docter
Welcome to the Deep Dish a podcast from the Gospel Coalition where we love having deep conversations about deep truths. I am Courtney Docter and I am here with my friend and co host Melissa Krueger and today we are so excited to be joined by our true dear in real life friend Emily Jensen to talk about worship. So Emily, thanks for coming on the Deep Dish.
- [03:06]
Emily Jensen
Thanks for having me. I am delighted to be here. It's fun to chat with you.
- [03:10]
Melissa Krueger
So, Emily, I'm really excited about what we're going to talk about. If you're watching, I'm showing this little booklet on worship. This is part of a series that we've done between TGC and Crossway and our partnership. They're called Disciplines of Devotion. Um, and I think sometimes we hear the word discipline. Yeah, we're like, ooh, that feels heavy. But I really. So I really like the devotional aspect that we're going for in all of these. In fact, I was telling you all this before we began. Our women's ministry leader is using these all summer to allow older women to mentor younger women. Because I think they're all about three or four chapters long. And so it's a really easy summer thing to do to keep growing without feeling overwhelmed. Oh, my goodness, Summer. How do I begin? And so I love that yours is on the topic of worship. So how do you define worship in this book?
- [04:10]
Emily Jensen
Yeah, you know, I think that worship is actually a hard spiritual discipline to define for a lot of reasons. And one of those is because it's kind of like an umbrella discipline. If you think about even all the other books that are in these series or common spiritual disciplines, it's like, well, we worship through our Bible reading and we worship through prayer. We worship through fasting, we worship when we evangelize, we worship when we practice the Sabbath. And so it's like, okay, so what is worship? It's also something that can be abstract. Like sometimes we don't always see worship with our eyes or it's not something we like check off. I read my Bible reading plan today. It can be a posture of the heart. It can be our affection stirred up towards God. So as I was kind of coming to a defin about this, I was like, okay, what can encompass all the different things in our lives that make up worship? And it's really our response to who God is and what he's done. I love. Like Tim Keller, I think, drew this out as I was doing some research of the English word Worship comes from the word worth. Ship, W o r T h ship. And so it's really like seeing what God is worth and giving him what he is worth, the worth that he is due, which of course is. Is everything because he's infinitely beautiful, infinitely wise, holy, righteous, perfect. Like, we go on and on about how wonderful he is. So our right response to that is complete and utter. Devotion, giving of our whole selves in all of life. So that is really what biblical worship is.
- [05:58]
Courtney Docter
Love that, that worth ship. I remember in seminary learning that the Hebrew word for glory, for the glory of God is really its weightiness. And so just even as we think about, like, the worth and the. The weight of his glory and the. The worthiness of his worship, like, I love the combination of those. Those two things. So his worth ship. Oh, that's gonna stick with me. It's really helpful to think about as I'm wanting to praise and adore and worship him, to think this is what he is so worthy of. But according to that definition, then I think a lot of us tend to think that worship is what we sing, right? That we sing in church on Sunday mornings or we listen to when we're just going about our days. That. That's worship. And for those of us that cannot carry a T, I'm kind of excited to think about it as more than, you know, more than that. Even though I, you know, I can sing from the bottom of my toes, but nobody except the Lord appreciates it. You know, what was that praise song that was, you know, may it be a sweet, sweet sound to your ear. That's a prayer that, you know, like, when I sing that, I'm like, lord, may it. May you somehow miraculously take this and make it a sweet, sweet sound to your ears. But what I want you to do, walk us through just an ordinary day in the life of Emily Jensen and tell us about some of the opportunities or the times or the moments that you actually think about. This is a moment of worship for me.
- [07:35]
Emily Jensen
Yeah, I love that. And I think it is important that we keep it broad. And it's more, like you said, than what we think about. It's more than just going to church on Sunday and saying, oh, I went to a worship service this week. I'll walk you through a day in my life. I. I'm a very imperfect worshiper, and I sometimes struggle with worshiping the wrong things. So I'm going to try to give you, like, a nice example version, but know that it's. It's certainly not perfect, but I like to think of worship in kind of three big categories again, outside of sort of what we do on Sunday, but worshiping through my words, my works, and my why. And so throughout the day, I think, thinking, okay, what does it look like to thank the Lord for something? What does it look like to give him credit or to give him praise or to recognize verbally or even through the words in my head, the narrative that I'm telling myself, oh, this is from the Lord, or through my works, the things that I do. How am I doing this unto the Lord? My why, thinking about what my heart attitude is, how I'm reflecting on the things that I'm pursuing in my life. So wake up in the morning. I think that I like to try to get in the word right away. Like, if my whole devotion in my life is lived unto the Lord, ideally I try to give him, right, like, the first fruits of my time and my attention and my energy. However, I also have a child who loves to get out of bed at the same time I do. And he, like, comes crawling into bed with me. But I view that as worship too. Like, sometimes I, I, I was like, okay, set aside my Bible and I just snuggle him and I'm like, lord, this is a way that I want to show that I love you by loving on him. You know, maybe when it's time to make everyone breakfast again, I'm not always, like, in the best mood in the whole world, but everybody needs to eat. Everybody's gotta find their folders, they've gotta get out the door. But I my heart posture, I want that to be, Lord, thank you. You've given me this work to do. This is a way I can do it unto you. For my family, thank you for this food. Throughout the day, I do a lot of stuff around the house. I am doing ministry things, I'm doing home things, I'm doing email. Some things I delight in and I think they're very fun. Some things are very mundane and I could do without them. But I think ideally, again, even when I am doing something like dishes or I'm running errands or I'm packaging up a return, I want that posture of my heart to be one of thinking of the Lord, thinking of what he has given me, what he's assigned me to do. And sometimes it's helpful if at the beginning of the day even I've looked at my schedule and thought, okay, here's the stuff that you've given me on my plate today. How can I do this in a way that shows my love and devotion to you and I'm getting better at this. But I think even at the end of the day, in my rest, thinking about resting from a heart that's thankful for God's grace, thankful that I can rest and enjoying everything as a gift from Him.
- [10:48]
Melissa Krueger
I love that summary of how you said my work words, my works, and my why and what's interesting about that is none of that involves singing. I mean, it could. Your words could involve singing. But, you know, I think a lot of us, when we think about worship, it's like, oh, I'm gonna get in my car and I'm gonna put praise music and I'm gonna feel the feels. It's gonna. It's gonna help me feel things about God. So what is actually the goal of worship?
- [11:22]
Emily Jensen
You know, what's.
- [11:23]
Melissa Krueger
What's the goal of, you know, thinking about our words and our works and our. Why. Like, what is the. What is the ultimate goal of that? Is it to change how we feel? Or what do you think? How would you even describe what the goal is?
- [11:40]
Emily Jensen
Absolutely. Well, because God is infinitely worthy. The goal is just that we would respond to him in the way that we ought, right? We are commanded to be fully devoted to him, to give our whole lives as a living sacrifice, to obey his commands, to do good works. And so I think that there is a very real, like, if we see God for who he is, like, we're not going to be able to help ourselves but worship. But in addition to that, I do think there are incredible blessings and benefits for us that are real and that we don't worship simply because of those things. But I do think it's okay to acknowledge that those things are real. I mean, again, our hearts were created to be fully satisfied in who God is. And so, of course, when we put on a song or maybe we read a scripture and we focus our minds and our hearts on that, or we think more intentionally about the grace that he's given us in Christ or the peace that we can have, I do think, like, we are embodied creatures. That helps us and it can help us calm down. But I don't know. I. I think that I try not to pursue worship as like, a means to an end of a certain feeling. But again, to notice that these are investments in my walk with God as well. Like, you know, right thinking begets right actions. And oftentimes, like, our feelings follow. And so, of course, like, feelings are ideal in worship, but we live in life after the fall. We don't always have those feelings. Sometimes we're busy. Sometimes we're distracted by different things. And so we have to keep going, right? We're walking by faith, not by sight. And Jesus wants us to abide in Him. I. I think a lot about, like, with worship or just investments in our walk with God of, like, marriage a little bit in the sense of not every day in marriage do you wake up and you're like, I have all the warm fuzzies. And you know, I'm gonna like, put these little drops in the bucket of our relationship just so I can like, you know, spring all those warm fuzzies up again so that they'll love me in return. Like, you do it because you've made a commitment, you have a covenant with them, and you have this bigger picture in mind of what you're investing in. And you're like, this is a lifelong thing. And so, like, I'm gonna do this because at the deepest levels, this matters to me and I value this relationship. And the same is true in our relationship with God. We're not just turning on the worship music simply because we want to feel some good feelings. We have this like, long term view and we're like, this is another incredible investment in a long term, eternal relationship that I have. And maybe I'm gonna feel the feelings right now, maybe I'm not, but that's okay. Cause like, this is. It's a long road.
- [14:46]
Courtney Docter
Yeah. And I love that even just thinking about, like his, that he's worthful and he never changes. So whether we feel it or not, he is still worthful. You know, like there is still. He is worthy of worship whether we feel it or not. So, you know, we are kind of coming at that question from the angle of, you know, how it changes us to worship. God is always worthy of it. But it actually does start kind of aligning the moments of our days with his majesty, with his worthiness, with his glory, with all of these things. And there it's so, you know, those times in life, and I hope anybody listening has had that experience when you feel that alignment, that what you are feeling in your heart is the same thing that you're saying with your lips. And it's just. It's magnificent and beautiful and powerful and, you know, it's the thing that we kind of long for. But if he never changes and he's always worthy of this, then of our worship, then what do we do in those moments where we know we are to be worshiping him and with our, with our words, with our works, and with our whys, and we simply do not feel it. We either feel numb, you know, we can feel kind of just apathetic, or we can feel angry. We can feel like we, you know, it's like not wanting to give that person that compliment. You know, we can feel that towards God. Like we. I actually want to withhold this from you right now because I'm angry or I'm upset because our hearts are deceitful above all things. And so what do we, what do we do then when, when our. We don't feel like worshiping God?
- [16:34]
Emily Jensen
Yeah, absolutely. That's hard and it's real. And I think some of the causes for that you've already mentioned and it's worth trying to diagnose or like, understand. Hey, if I've. I've been at church several Sundays in a row and I'm just not connecting with anything and my heart is not being revived or warmed towards God in any way, I think it's worth, like, why, you know, or if I'm struggling to. I don't want to get in the word. And that can be for a variety of reasons. Some reasons that I know I've experienced is one is just I'm over busy, I'm too distracted. I'm literally going from thing to thing to thing to thing. And like you said, that can cause a numbness in my heart and in my soul. I mean, even just giving a church on Sunday example, like, it's hard when I've gotten five kids ready to go and we've had arguments and, you know, someone's hair didn't get combed and whatever. Like, it is hard to then step out of the car and like get into church and be like, you know, I gotta sing and like, I'm gonna pray. Like, it's just kind of feels like whiplash. And that's true if in our days and our lives we are just boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, totally focused on the cares of the world. Like, it's hard to move from that into spiritual things. I think that certainly seasons of grief, seasons of doubt, seasons of loss, like, it may be, oh, I need to maybe worship God through lament, or I need to worship God in ways that sound different than when I am in seasons where things are a little bit more fruitful or more joyful. I know for me, I personally find it hardest to have feelings of worship towards God when things are going well in my life, actually, because I have a harder time seeing my need and being humbled before Him. And so oftentimes, if I've noticed, I'm kind of in this weird dry thing. It's like, oh, I am putting too much confidence. I am assuming God's provision. I am assuming these blessings, you know, and I'm not. I'm not actually seeing my need for Him. So I think that diagnostic piece is really important. But then again, continuing on with those faithful disciplines anyway, knowing that again, feelings come and go, but these investments are worthwhile. I mean, working out is like a great analogy of this. Like, not often do we want to go on the run or do the exercise. It's like, you know, there is a little bit of that resistance. Sometimes you're in a good mood and you want to do it, sometimes you don't. But. But for most people, the goal is, well, I want to be able to have this energy, so I keep up with my kids or my grandkids or I want to be able to, you know, you have some other goal in mind, and so you do it for the greater good. And then afterwards, like, 99% of the time, once you got through it, you're glad that you did it. And I think that's so true of worship. Whether it's. It's prayer or. Or doing the act of obedience that we were kind of, you know, begrudging, or it is singing to him or it is doing our Bible reading. Like, how often, if you are filled with the Spirit, do you end that time? Like, man, that was a real waste of time. Absolutely not. Like, you come away in some way with your heart warm towards him. We have to give credit to the Holy Spirit for that. That, like, look, if you were filled with the Spirit, the Spirit is going to draw you and warm your heart to Christ. Not perfectly, not fully at every time, but that. That's gonna happen.
- [20:20]
Melissa Krueger
I love that you just acknowledge sometimes we don't feel it, and then the Lord brings the feelings, you know, And I think we. We all know that relationships with other people in our lives and, you know, sometimes the closest people to us in our life, we're not feeling the feelings towards. And, you know, but you, you know, you're called to, as you talked about earlier. And I. I think the one thing. I mean, we've talked about all these other ways worship is, but I do think it's important. It is important to say singing does help. I mean, because I was just. I remember one day, it was. It was right before Easter. It was. It was maybe even last year. And I was not feeling the Easter feelings. And you feel really guilty for not feeling the Easter feelings. Like, this is kind of the big thing Jesus did for us, you know, And I was just like, yeah, Easter's coming. Okay. I mean, you know, just thinking of what I needed to do rather than what God had done, that's often what gets me off my worship. And I was. So I did whatever every really spiritual person did. I started scrolling Facebook and someone else had shared Sandra McCracken's Thy mercy, my God. And I just happened to click on it. And it was amazing how the song reminded my soul of what I desperately needed to hear. And I've studied this a little bit. We're getting ready to do our conference is gonna be on the psalms. And one thing about singing is it gets to in different parts of our memory. So whereas, like, names are stored in one part of the memory, actually songs are stored in our emotional memory. And so even people with like Alzheimer's and dementia can often remember a hymn even when they can't remember anything else. And so I find that amazing. It really is a gift. While again, it's our words, our works, and our why. But when we aren't feeling things, I do think it's a good discipline and it's sometimes it's a discipline to. To put on some worship music and say, lord, just remind me about truths about you as I go through it, through my day. But we did talk about this, and
- [22:40]
Emily Jensen
I want to land a little bit
- [22:41]
Melissa Krueger
on the worshiping God with our works. So what is the difference of worshiping God with our works and viewing our works as a way we get God's favorite.
- [22:54]
Emily Jensen
Yeah, that. That's a great question. So everything we do is an overflow of gratitude that we're saved by grace through faith. It's a gift of God. It is not by our work so that no one can boast. So we are giving things as an offering to God because he's brought us into his kingdom. And so now he is the king on the throne of our lives. And that means we're his willing subjects. I love. You know Romans 12:1 talks about we give our lives as a living sacrifice. That is our worship. Now it's no longer Christ or no longer I who live. It's Christ who lives in me. Which means I'm not clinging to any, you know, plans or ideas about the things that I was going to do or the dreams that I had or the stuff I had on my to do list. Today I'm kind of offering everything up over and over and over again and say, okay, well, what would you have me do, Lord? And Jesus calls us to do what God commands, that we don't just want to be hearers of the word, we want to be doers of the Word. We're called to good works. Our works adorn the gospel. They. They testify to the truthfulness and the goodness of the gospel in our lives. And, you know, we all know, like those hypocritical moments, right, where you hear someone and they say over and over again that they believe something, but they never do it. You know, and that would be true of us if we, as Christians, we're like, oh, we love Jesus, and yet, like, we never really did anything that was costly or that served him, or we didn't submit our time and our resources and our money to Him. It would be kind of like, big question mark there. What's going on? So I think that that works piece is really saying, okay, whatever I'm doing right now, I want to work at it with my whole being unto the Lord. And so, like, practically, I feel like that means working at whatever tasks I have with more excellence than maybe I'm typically comfortable with, with. With care and diligence. Because God is seeing this behind the scenes, even if no one else is seeing it. I want to work in a way and live in a way that's a witness to who God is and what he's like. So even, you know, I think about bringing, you know, like, order to chaos in my home. You know, like, I'll think I am cleaning this up partly because it's stressing me out. You know, I don't. I don't like a messy counter, but, like, there is a level in my mind where I go, also, God is a God of order and this type of chaos in our house. Like, I want to reflect who God is, and I want to come in and say, everything has a place, and I want to put everything in its place. And I want to be thoughtful and intentional about the way that things are laid out, just like God is thoughtful and intentional about the way that things are laid out. So you can see, like, there's ways in which we can view every task that we're given or everything that we spend our time on as, again, an offering to the Lord and as a reflection to the Lord. Or it's just sort of like, we just don't think that deep about it. It's just a thing that we do, you know, because we want to get it done.
- [26:07]
Courtney Docter
Yeah, well, even as you're talking and just thinking about all the moments of the days, I mean, so it is worship. It can be. It should be. Maybe hooking your child into a car seat. I'm thinking about the moments of my days, you know, even going out to feed my horses in the morning. Like, they are part of God's good creation, and they're part of his good gift to me. And so even the way that, like, I find joy in that can be worshipful. You know, the mundane tasks of the day, going to the grocery store, like to really. I think I'm just going to take what you're saying and try to really think through those moments of my days and how they can be filled with awareness of God's goodness in those moments and awareness of his provision and his presence and that he's at work in those moments. He's at work in me. He's at work in those that I'm impacting through the, through the work that he's called me to do. And so, yeah, that's just, it's really helpful, Emily. I'm gonna, I'm gonna think about, like, the moments of my days and try and land the plane with that thought in my mind. Okay, we're gonna take a little break. We're gonna hear a word from our sponsor and we're going to come back and we're going to talk about worship that can be displeasing to the Lord. So we'll be back in a.
- [27:30]
Colin Hanson
Hi, I'm Colin Hanson, Executive director for the Keller center for Cultural Apologetics. How can ministry leaders care for believers going through seasons of doubt and disillusionment? In the forceful crosswinds of a post Christendom culture, more and more believers are struggling to stand firm in the faith. Some are afraid to confess their doubts. While some try to argue their way through nagging questions, others have just given up. They need a guide. How can we help these faith struggling people rediscover the firm ground of Christ? How can we help them doubt their doubts and confess? I believe help my unbelief. Surprised by Doubt is is a new five week cohort by the Keller center for Cultural Apologetics. It's designed to help pastors and other ministry leaders engage people in their care who are struggling in their faith in a way that's grounded in the gospel and geared for our contestable age. Find out more@tgc.org cohorts that's tgc.org cohorts.
- [28:30]
Courtney Docter
This episode of the Deep Dish is brought to you by Cozy Earth. And Melissa, you and I have become borderline obsessed with all things cozy earth. Their sheets, their pajamas, their robes. But now there is a new outfit.
- [28:43]
Melissa Krueger
I know, and I'm pretty excited about this one because somehow it's what you can wear all day long. And if you even want to wear it at night to bed, you probably could. But it, it's great for morning coffee, school, pickup, different errands. It's so cute. Tell us a little bit more about it.
- [29:00]
Courtney Docter
Yeah, it's called, it's Cozy Earth's brushed bamboo jogger set. And it's made from viscose from bamboo. And so it's really soft, breathable, comfortable. It's kind of that like, like you said I could wear it 24 7.
- [29:13]
Melissa Krueger
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- [29:28]
Courtney Docter
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- [29:47]
Melissa Krueger
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- [30:05]
Courtney Docter
Welcome back. So like I said, we're going to talk about this idea that can we ask the question, can our worship be displeasing to the Lord? And yeah, I want to hear what you guys have to say and then I'm going to piggyback a little bit on that. But Emily, why don't you go first? What about ways that what could make worship displeasing to the Lord?
- [30:26]
Emily Jensen
Yeah, it is interesting. As soon as we embrace the idea of worship and it's so good, it's like, wait, wait, wait, wait. You know, there's some boundaries around that. I think one of the places we see this really clearly is actually at the beginning of the ten Commandments where God says, hey, you shouldn't have no other gods. And also don't make a graven image of me. And he basically is like saying, hey, worship the right God. But also you have to worship the right God in the right way. It's not just anything you want to do goes. And we see an example of that right away when Moses on the mountain and Aaron is down there and the people are getting kind of bored, they're getting impatient and, and they are trying to find right a way to worship the right God, Yahweh, but they do it in the Wrong way. Aaron collects, you know, gold from them and they melt it down and they make a golden calf. And so they are worshiping God through a creation of an image through an idol. And God expressly forbids that. And there is a severe punishment for that. And so we see throughout Scripture that we want to worship both in spirit and in truth and part of worship. And truth means we are worshiping in ways that are biblical, that are aligned with his commands that the words that we're saying when we pray and when we sing are truthful, doctrinally sound words. And I think with that, it's helpful to try to stick as close to the Bible as possible, because unfortunately, there are songs and prayers out there and devotionals and books and different things that we might want to utilize in our worship that would not be truthful words. And then also, I. I don't know that this is as common as some of the circles that I'm in, but maybe in different parts of the world, people are using literal objects or literal pictures as a means to spark worship to God. And they're. They're like literally saying, hey, I've got this water and it's holy, or I have this something, and. And they are utilizing it in a way that really would be, you know, a direct violation there. So I think we have to be careful about how we are worshiping, for sure.
- [32:53]
Melissa Krueger
I think that story that you shared about with Moses and the. Or Aaron and the golden calf, I always find it so interesting. Because you think, huh, where did the
- [33:03]
Emily Jensen
Israelites get the gold?
- [33:05]
Melissa Krueger
Oh, well, God allowed them to plunder the Egyptians when they left. So this was God's gift to them. They plundered the Egyptians and now they turn it into something they worship. And that happens again with the snake in the wilderness. You know, they're getting bitten by these snakes. Cause they did something. You know, they're always doing something. Aren't we all? And God said, put, you know, put the snake up on a pole. Well, later in the story, they're bowing down and worshiping the golden snake. And it was. Those two stories are such an image to me of how tempting it is to worship the gift of God rather than God himself. And I. I think that's displeasing to God. You know, we rather. We want him for what he's going to give us rather than who he is. And yes, it's what he's done, but it's very transactional. And actually what we. It's. It's idol making. Right? And one of the Most sobering verses for me, it's 2nd Kings 17:41, and it says, even while these people were worshiping the Lord, so they're worshiping the Lord, they were serving their idols, and to this day their children and grandchildren do the same. And I was like, ooh, you know, our kids are washing. We might be worshiping with our mouth, but what we're serving with our lives. This is where your works really do show forth. It's easy to raise your hands and act like you're worshiping God, but, you know, if we're actually serving our idols and living for money or living for comfort or, you know, there are so many idols that we're chasing. And I think the Lord knows our heart. So are we really worshiping him or we worshiping what he might give us? That's, that's what I think. What about you, Courtney?
- [34:52]
Courtney Docter
Yeah, and I think just even the whole idea of, you know, you hear people say all the time, I don't, I don't need the church, I can worship God in nature. I can, I can, you know, go for a walk outside and I can, you know, drink a glass of red wine and have a loaf of French bread and I'm serving myself communion and you know, and it's like, actually, no, that's actually not just not pleasing to the Lord, that is displeasing to the Lord. So if you go back to 1st Kings 12, when the kingdom split, that's the whole thing that Jeroboam ends up doing. He takes 10 of the tribes in the Northern kingdom and if you read that passage, you have to pay attention to how many times it says he made, he set up, he. So he, he set up a new Levitical, you know, new priests, he set up a new temple, he actually recreated the golden calves, he set up new festivals, he set up new. Like he did all these new things. And it was like, no, no, no. The Lord had already said, this is the worship that's acceptable to me. It's in my temple with my priests, according to my calendar, with the sacrifices that I've given you. And again, back to the ten Commandments with the one true God. And so I think that our modern day version of that is I don't need to worship with the people of God, or I don't need to worship in a way where I'm sitting under the preached word or the beauty of the liturgy and the things that actually form us. We can do this on our, our own. And I think that it's incredibly displeasing to the Lord, because that's not what he has said. He has given us a means to approach Him. And it is first and foremost through his Son that that is the way to approach the Lord is in Christ. And then he wants us to join with his people, his very imperfect, very, you know, frustrating at times, even hurtful people. But that is the means by which he's given us properly know him and worship Him. And so I think that there's a lot of ramifications to that. But, but again, even back to your, you know, your thoughts, Emily, that, that I do think we have to be careful with even some of the words that we sing. There are, you know, it's not very often. I mean, so many of, you know, it's. There are just so many different beautiful words that have been given to us to praise the Lord. But every once in a while, it'll just kind of of hit me. There was a song years ago, it was a praise song. How did it go? And I could never sing was something about, I will stand, I will. Like, I will endure. And I just. I just cringed. I couldn't. I thought, I. If by God's grace, I will. But I'm not going to stand here and proclaim to the Lord, like, I'm going to stand forever, Forever, all forever I'll stand forever I'll be strong. That was something like that. And I just thought, I can't sing that. Like, Lord willing, forever I'll be strong and forever I'll stand. But oh, my word, it felt very. Just presumptive to stand before the Lord and sing that. So I think just to pay attention to the words that we're singing and saying that that's important as we, as we seek to worship, to worship the Lord. And then it starts as we're thinking about work and why, you know, we start thinking about the moments of our days, why we're doing things and how we're doing the things that we've been given to do. Like that matters. Am I doing it grumbling and complaining, or am I doing it unto the Lord? So, yeah, I think that it has, like, that thought has a lot of ramifications that play out in the moments, not just on Sunday mornings, but the moments of our moments of our days.
- [38:47]
Emily Jensen
I. I was just gonna say, I think that in this conversation, you know, one of the reasons why when we hear the word worship, we think of Sunday morning is because that is like one of the main clear ways that God calls us to worship on Sunday morning. So it's like, I. I want in this conversation to say, hey, as we're talking about these things, part of it is because I think we want to broaden our view. But it's also in the same way that, you know, someone invites you into their house and, like, the. The main meal is clearly there, but then they're also like, oh, there's like, some great snacks over there, and there's hors d' oeuvres over on that table, and there's dessert over on that table, and there's great drinks. It's just kind of helping us see. Oh, it's more than that. But you never want people to be like, yeah, I'm gonna worship mainly through gardening, mainly through my walks. You know, those things are never gonna replace the importance of corporate worship and the sacraments, all those things.
- [39:41]
Melissa Krueger
Yeah, we can get very independent in our Western culture of thinking. Worship is just me and God. Yeah, yeah, you'll see that. Whereas it. It is a corporate experience too. You know, it's us together as the body, all acknowledging who God is and what he's done. And there's something powerful about that to be in that, you know, in a room with other people. And we need. John 4. 23 says, but the hour is coming and is now here when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth. For the Father is seeking such people to worship him. God is Spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth. So let me ask you both, what does that mean? What does it mean? You know, because we just. We've kind of looked at what worship is. We've worked, looked at what doesn't please the Lord in our worship. So this is a pretty clear pathway for us. Okay, my. My goal is in spirit and in truth. So flesh that out for me. What does that mean?
- [40:50]
Emily Jensen
I'll. I'll dive into, like, the, I think, really straightforward part of that, and then I'll lob the rest of Courtney. But, you know, I think in spirit, it's like, if we're going to be a true worshiper, we're going to be worshiping in the spirit. We have to be saved. We have to be born again and have the spirit of God in us. I think Courtney already said that earlier, like, that Jesus is the basis on which we come to God. We confidently come to the throne. Otherwise, like, we're prostrate and we have no hope. And so we. I don't know. I think that, that. That is the first piece of that puzzle is have the Holy Spirit I, I agree.
- [41:30]
Courtney Docter
So I think that it's the idea like, you know, in Christ. So I mean, even the fact that Jesus is saying the hour is actually here right now, like this is how we're going to be worshiping the Father, by the Spirit, which we only have when we're in Christ, when we're united to Christ. And so apart from that union with Christ, we cannot worship him in a way that pleases him. I mean, we are, we are like not pleasing to him if we're not in Christ. And so we don't even have the Spirit just to your point, without Christ. And then in truth, so according to his word, like he has given us ways to approach him and ways to, I mean, that's, you know, Leviticus is the book of the Bible where Bible reading plans go to die. But that's the whole point of Leviticus is, you know, Exodus, the book right before it. Exodus is the second book in the Bible, Leviticus is the third. And Exodus ends with the presence of the Lord filling the tabernacle. So the tabernacle had just been built and it literally. Those are the last verses in Exodus is that God fills his, he fills the tabernacle, the holy of holies. And then, you know, the question should be, how do a sinful, how does a sinful people live in the presence of a holy God? And so you turn the page to Leviticus and he's like, I'm going to show you how. And all of those were pointing to Christ. The cleansings were pointing to Christ. The sacrifices were pointing to Christ, the rituals were pointing to Christ. Everything was pointing to Christ. And so it is the only way to be in Christ is the only way in which to worship God in a way that is pleasing. And so I think that that's where Jesus was headed in John 4:23 to say, you know, like, it's here. Like I'm here, I'm standing here. And so this is going to be the way. And then, you know, he's reconciling Jew and Gentile in that whole passage too. And so because he's in Samaria, which is the place for Jew and Gentile have and are married. And so it's this beautiful picture of the, the people of God is going to be a people from every tribe, tongue, nation and people. And in Christ we're united, and in Christ we're made pleasing to God. Back to that Romans 12 passage that, that, that it is our acceptable form of worship is in Christ. And so, so yeah, I think that that Apart from that, it's. It's not pleasing to the Lord. Okay, so as you. Then. So as we're thinking about this, and. And you're considering your children, because even that verse that Melissa read a little while ago was talking about your children and your children's children. And so as you consider them and. And you think about, like, their desire to. To serve you and to help you with. With your work, right? Or, you know, they. They put out their best efforts or they draw these pictures that are. That are less than, you know, perfect. And so how does that actually give you insight into God and how he views our efforts? As, you know, if. If we're in Christ, we're His children. And so as we're approaching him in these feeble ways, honestly, how does it give you insight into his delight in us? Maybe I'm giving it away with that,
- [45:09]
Emily Jensen
but I love this question so much. I have. My youngest is in third grade right now and just starting to write, like, little opinion papers or, you know, describing something. And so for my job, I literally write things and edit things, you know, because, like, I'm a professional writer. But when she brings her paper home to me, I do not take that paper and start critiquing her spelling and her punctuation and saying, you really should have had a stronger thesis statement here, sweetie. You know, I am so, like, what is she gonna say? I'm so excited, and I think it's cute, and I think it's funny, and I even like her little misspellings. And I am aware of her capacity, and I receive what she's done with her capacity in mind. And so that. That delights me. It delights me because she wrote it. It delights me because I'm curious about what she said because I'm watching her grow and change. And so I think we have to remember that as we are coming to the Lord. Like, he knows our maturity level. He knows where we're at. I know Brian Chappell tells this really good allegory story about a king who is looking out from his window, and he sees his youngest son. And he's kind of outside the gates and he's gathering flowers to bring to his father. But this is a young child. And so he's gathering some flowers, but he's also. Also gathering weeds and thistles and ivy and, you know, like, dandelion type flowers. And so the king says to his oldest son, hey, when he comes to the gate, go ahead and, like, take out those. Those thistles and the weeds from his Bouquet and bring him to my garden and stick in some of my really nice flowers so that when he comes to me, you know, I, there's this really nice bouquet. And, and the picture is right, that like we are gathering and bringing our gifts, our offerings, our sacrifices, they're kind of a hot mess. But Jesus makes those pleasing and beautiful. And because of Jesus, we have fruitfulness in the way that we serve and in the way that we worship and praise the Lord, you know, that the Spirit intercedes on our behalf. And so I think about that, that a lot, that our even sufficiency for worship is in Christ. He, he was the perfect worshiper on our behalf. So it's not about, I had this perfect prayer. I had this, you know, I have this beautiful voice. I, I did everything today with this perfect heart of submission and worship. It's, it's about gratitude for the one who allowed us to come be in the presence of the Lord.
- [48:08]
Melissa Krueger
It's a good picture of the fatherly love of God, which is what encourages us to worship. And the good news for us is this is a discipline that doesn't end on this side of eternity. It's one we'll be, this is one to get used to because we're going to keep doing it for all of eternity. Praise the Lord. And I think, what a sweet thing it's going to be in heaven. Because if we, we started this with the statement that, that worship is our response to God and what he has done. And isn't that what we're going to spend all eternity together doing, you know, responding to God? And we're going to be sitting around saying, remember when God did this? And now we're even, we're going to even know more about what God was doing when we didn't know what he was doing. And that's worship. And that's going to be just a wonderful thing to get to do together. So, Emily, we always end with a question of some sort. And so we wanted to ask you, you know, we obviously, as we were talking, we said worship is way more than singing, but is there a favorite worship song that you just love turning to and really just is encouraging your heart even right now? Maybe it's a, maybe it doesn't have to be favorite. That always stresses me out. One that is really encouraging you right now.
- [49:28]
Emily Jensen
Okay. Okay, good question. Yeah, you asked the gal who's not the singer. But I do love worship music. Here, here's what I will say. I, I, I'm terrible at favorites, but recently I was At a funeral. So I go to church or let me back, let me back up. I go to church. We sing like mostly modern worship songs. And so I feel like it's not very often that I sing with a congregation without much background music. And we sing hymns. And I recently went to a funeral of just an incredible saint and had a chance to sing some of those old, old classics. And I was full of tears the whole time because there is something about the words that you're like. I know that saints for hundreds of years have been singing these and they have stood the test of time and they're so beautiful and they communicate such deep theological truths. And sometimes it is harder for me to get into like hand raising mode with those types of songs, but it moves something else in my heart when I hear God's people singing really classic hymns. So since then I have found myself integrating just words to classic song. I'm trying to think of one that I love. I think there's one William Cowper. And he talks about the clouds behind a frowning providence. What is the name of God?
- [50:53]
Melissa Krueger
God moves in mysterious ways. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [50:58]
Emily Jensen
I, I, I think that is one that I have.
- [51:00]
Melissa Krueger
See, I can't remember your name.
- [51:02]
Emily Jensen
Emily.
- [51:02]
Melissa Krueger
But because it was a hymn,
- [51:07]
Emily Jensen
it
- [51:07]
Melissa Krueger
went to the emotional register like, this is life.
- [51:10]
Emily Jensen
Right.
- [51:10]
Courtney Docter
Also because we're old,
- [51:15]
Emily Jensen
like bits and pieces and someone please. I love that hymn.
- [51:18]
Melissa Krueger
I love it.
- [51:19]
Emily Jensen
It's a great, it gives me, like, it makes me cry, like every time. And so there's just something about just deep, poetic, doctrinally true words that just move the heart.
- [51:29]
Courtney Docter
Yeah.
- [51:30]
Melissa Krueger
Well, Courtney, do you have one? I want to hear yours too.
- [51:33]
Courtney Docter
Yeah, Mine is a, is a more contemporary one, but it's holy forever. I just can't even. And I was just in Brazil and I was in a room full of thousands of women singing it in Portuguese and I was singing it in English and I, it just because it's true. Like, it's so true. He, I mean, when they, you know, when you start singing in that. And the angels cry holy. I mean, you just, Golly. Like all creation cries holy. I mean, it's, that is the truth of, of who we're worshiping, that the ages, the creation, the angels, like every, like, like he's, he's, he's worthful. Like, he's just worthful. So I'm gonna be thinking about that.
- [52:24]
Melissa Krueger
So good. The one I've been clinging to is We Rest on Thee. It's, it's. No one sings it anymore, but it's the song that they sang right before Jim Elliott. Actually, it was the very hymn they sang when they went out, right before they went out to share with the Aca Indians or, you know, the tribe back in the day. And that's why she named the book through the Gates of Splendor. That line is in the hymn and but a friend of mine rearranged it so it's a modernized version. And my daughter left for the mission field this year and this is the song we keep singing to one another. And as we rest on the our shield and our defender we go out, we go not forth alone against the foe Strong in thy strength and in thy keeping tender we rest on thee and in thy name we go. And you know, I like, yeah, just want to cry. But it's all about how he strengthens us. Anyway, it's, it's so good. Um, but we hope what if you're listening today and you do have a favorite hymn or song, put it in the show notes so we can all listen and share a link so that we can listen to one another's favorite songs. We'd love to hear. We hope that you've been encouraged by this episode. We pray that it will help you worship in spirit and in truth. Um, thanks for joining us for the Deep Dish. We're so thankful you listened to and we're so thankful for each of you. And if this has been an episode that's encouraged you, please feel free to share it with others. Hey, friends, it's Melissa Krueger here and I'm so excited that you're listening to the Deep Dish. Wanna stay connected and get even more resources for growing in your faith? We've got a new newsletter for you and we're so excited about it. When you subscribe, you'll get discussion questions for the Deep Dish episodes, memory versus updates on what's happening with women's initiatives, as well as some of our favorite staff picks. And these are really fun. So head over to tgc.org women and sign up today. We can't wait to connect with you again. That's TGC.org women.