Bible Scholar Challenges Lecrae on Generational Curses, Demons, & Deliverance

Summary

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The Deep End With Lecrae

Episode: Bible Scholar Challenges Lecrae on Generational Curses, Demons, & Deliverance
Guest: Michael Miller
Date: April 9, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this richly layered episode, Lecrae hosts Bible scholar and pastor Michael Miller for an honest, vulnerable, and theologically rigorous conversation on often-taboo subjects in the church: generational curses, demons, deliverance, and the supernatural. Miller, cohost of Remnant Radio and pastor of Reclamation Church, brings both scriptural precision and practical deliverance experience. Together, they explore where scripture, lived experience, and church culture intersect and diverge, offering a compassionate but critically-minded look at Christian spirituality’s most controversial corners.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Journeys Into Christian Faith and the Supernatural

[05:52-09:58, 10:04-13:04]

• Michael Miller’s background: Raised by a Jewish mother and Mormon father in a broken home; first engaged the Bible as “a book of ancient spells,” came to faith in high school, and was initially disappointed by cessationist churches (“all the fun stuff happened back then, but that’s not happening now”).
• Influential mentorship with Jack Deere, and a journey that merged “vanilla” evangelical roots with a slow, biblically anchored entry into the “gifts of the Spirit.”
• Lecrae’s path: Not raised in church; discipled by a football player steeped in conservative Bible church culture that cast suspicion on the supernatural—contrasting with wild experiences and deep skepticism about manipulative “Pentecostal packaging.”
• Both describe wrestling with mental health (anxiety, trauma) and the suspicion that not all suffering is merely psychological.

2. Scriptural Integrity and the Gifts of the Spirit

[14:00-16:31]

• Miller insists on rigorous scriptural grounding for any supernatural claim or practice:

  “The strongest scriptural arguments led me towards the gifts being continued today. There is no explicit verse that says that they discontinue.” (Michael Miller, 15:22)

• Critiques charismatic catchphrases (“I feel there’s a spirit of this…”) as unhelpful and ungrounded.
• Emphasis: Experience must align with clear biblical teaching, or risk “being duped.”

3. Testimonies: Healing and the Reality of Miracles

[19:09-26:06]

• Both reflect on John Wimber’s story of three years of unanswered prayers for healing—a corrective to “instant results” celebrity faith.
• Miller recounts his own “my feet are straight” story—healing a girl’s physical condition despite lacking faith himself:

  "I didn’t even think anything would happen. That’s the truth." (Michael Miller, 24:47)

• Miracles ignite hunger for ultimate future healing (“the hors d'oeuvres before the banquet”).

4. Educated Skepticism & The Two Audiences

[26:06-28:37]

• Lecrae notes that those most open to supernatural stories are often less-formally trained; educated communities (especially Western) lean skeptical.
• Miller differentiates healthy skepticism (“I want the real thing”) from hardened unbelief:

  “Skepticism says, hey, look, I don’t want to be duped. I want the real thing. That’s a person that wants truth… But the person who’s unbelieving…God will allow you to make your own choice.” (Michael Miller, 27:18)

5. First Encounters with Demons and Deliverance

[29:08-37:55]

• Miller’s first clear deliverance experience: In South Africa, confronting a demon-possessed (or “demonized”) Christian woman, released after an ancestor’s curse.
• Insights into authority over demons:

  “What gives people the rights to do these things is being a Christian…We are seated in heavenly places in Christ… we have authority over these things.” (Michael Miller, 35:56)

• Importance of community: Deliverance is rarely a solo endeavor—Scripture prescribes confession and mutual support.

6. Christians and Demonic Oppression: Biblical & Historical Arguments

[37:59-47:11]

• The term “demon possession” is misleading; Greek “daimonizomai” = “demonized,” describing a spectrum.
• Miller: There is no explicit Bible verse confirming or denying that Christians can have demons; but inference, early church teaching, and passages like Ephesians 4 (“don’t give the devil a foothold”) support the possibility.
• Cites early church father Tertullian and others:

  “Yes, Christians can have demons. ... If you're going to go back to your sin, then guess what? You're going to welcome back your old demons.” (Michael Miller, 45:51)

7. Generational Curses, Sin, and Deliverance Ministry

[50:05-57:56]

• Story of a curse from Scottish ancestry (Gavin Dunbar) only broken through specific prayer and renunciation.
• Curses are empowered by sin, but not always the person’s own — “Demons traffic in sin...they don’t care if it’s your sin, someone else’s against you, or your ancestors.” (Michael Miller, 54:59)
• Delivers pastoral comfort: God sanctifies and delivers gradually; “I have been delivered. I am being delivered. And one day I will be fully delivered.”

8. Fear, Authority, and the Place of Demons in the Life of Believers

[59:56-66:28]

• Lecrae: Why aren’t you afraid of demons?
• Miller: “Because I belong to Jesus. He’s preeminent.”
• There is reverence (not arrogance), but Jesus’ authority is supreme.
• Demons are powerful but “like little critters” compared to Christ’s sovereignty.
• On the “origin” of demons, Miller tentatively favors Michael Heiser’s Nephilim/unseen realm theory but doesn’t get dogmatic, concluding: “Demons, bad. Let’s get rid of them.” (Michael Miller, 65:59)

9. Prophecy, False Prophets, and Charismatic Abuse

[69:09-83:12]

• How do you discern a true prophet? OT warnings (Deut. 13/18, Jer. 23/28): Not about displays of power but the direction they lead—toward Christ or self/glory/sin.
• Miller:

  “Just because something is powerful does not make it God. Where are they leading you?” (Michael Miller, 70:13)

• Critiques the culture of “grand words” and unchallenged prophecy on platforms like YouTube.
• Calls for “making prophecy local again” (83:12) — situated in humble, encouraging, transparent church community.

10. Practical Deliverance: Legal Rights, Naming, and Repentance

[92:01-100:46]

• Sometimes deliverance requires identifying specific strongholds (“naming” as sign of authority).
• Removing demons requires confronting both their means of entry (sin, trauma, ancestral link) and their right to remain.
• If someone is unwilling to repent, deliverance may not be lasting.

11. Can Everyday Christians Cast Out Demons or Experience Deliverance?

[100:00-100:46]

• Miller:

  “God is good. I’m not the guru...If you’re walking in the light, much demonic hold is broken just by confession and walking in the light.”

• Community, vulnerability, regular repentance, and practical honesty are key spiritual weapons.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Skepticism:
  “I don’t think skepticism is counter to faith. ... Skepticism says, I want the real thing. That’s a person that wants truth, to that Jesus likes that.” (Michael Miller, 27:18)

• On Authority Over Demons:
  “I don’t think deliverance ministry ... is because I have some sort of special gift of the Spirit. I don’t think it’s gift related. I think it’s position related. Are you in Christ?” (Michael Miller, 35:56)

• On Experiences Not Matching Scripture:
  “There is a major gap between my experience and what I read [in the Bible]—but at the same time, I don’t trust the voices that are out there to tell me the truth.” (Michael Miller, 15:04)

• On Demonic Oppression and Sin:
  “Demons traffic in sin. They don’t care if it’s your sin. They don’t care if it’s someone else’s sin against you. ... they’re wicked and they traffic in sin.” (Michael Miller, 54:59)

• On Spiritual Hunger and Miracles:
  “I liken it to going to a fancy dinner where you get like the hors d’oeuvres—it lets you know the banquet is coming. ... it ignites the hunger.” (Michael Miller, 25:40)

• On Deliverance and Gradual Wholeness:
  “He sanctifies us, right? I have been delivered. I am being delivered. And one day I will be fully delivered.” (Michael Miller, 57:56)

• On False Prophecy:
  “A true prophet is always going to call you back to faithfulness to the covenant.” (Michael Miller, 74:55)

• Lecrae’s Skepticism Softening:
  “I’m a raging skeptic of all things charismatic....But what did happen was me saying, let me start digging into this... I get this name in my head ...ariana. ... the girl walked.” (Lecrae, 88:21–90:49)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Miller’s story/testimony: [05:52–09:58]
• Lecrae’s spiritual background: [10:04-13:04]
• Scriptural foundation for miracles/gifts: [14:00–16:31]
• Healing testimony – “My feet are straight”: [20:36–26:06]
• Healthy skepticism vs. unbelief: [26:06–28:37]
• South Africa deliverance story, authority: [29:08–37:55]
• Christians and demonic oppression: [37:59–47:11]
• Generational curse (Scottish) deliverance: [50:05–57:56]
• On not fearing demons: [59:56–66:28]
• On prophecy/false prophets: [69:09–83:12]
• Making prophecy local: [83:12–85:59]
• Lecrae’s “ariana” miracle story: [88:21–90:49]
• Practical deliverance (legal rights, naming): [92:01–100:46]
• Everyday deliverance & community: [100:00–100:58]
• Where to find Miller’s resources: [101:08–102:36]

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Overall Tone & Takeaways

• Honest, vulnerable, and intellectually rigorous, both Lecrae and Miller are transparent about their doubts and experiences with abuse, skepticism, and the messiness of spiritual life.
• Miller is insistent that experience must be subject to scripture, but also that a fear-based, “safe” Christianity is ultimately just as unbiblical as credulous, manipulative charismatic excesses.
• Both urge listeners to “come and see”—to pursue authenticity, persistent prayer, honest confession, and connection with Christ and the faithful community above any spiritual shortcut or showmanship.
• Practical wisdom: If you need deliverance, you don’t need a guru—you need a community, the authority of Christ, and the willingness to bring things into the light.

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For further resources:

• Michael Miller: [Remnant Radio], [thomasministries.org], “Overcomer’s Journal”
• Lecrae: The Deep End Podcast archives

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Transcript

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[Lecrae]

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[Michael Miller]

I was in South Africa, and this man keeps asking me to pray for his wife. I'm a young 20 something at the time, I'm not even married, and I'm going, bro, I can't fix your marriage. And so I'm asking her, what do you need prayer for? She goes, oh, I don't know. And I'm like, I'm looking at the husband and then she just turns to me and she says, I don't like. This is something else. Her voice, her mouth, but something else speaking, and she's gone. This is. I play games. I said, what games do you play? I cause murder. I cause divorce. I was terrified. And I remember just feeling like. Like my life was really in jeopardy. And I looked at her and the demon, I guess, and I said, well, you're done doing that. And I said, how did you get in? Said, I was sent here. And I said, who sent you? Said rita. I'm looking at the husband. I'm going, who's Rita? And he goes, that's my sister. What?

[Lecrae]

Man, this is the deep end with Lecrae. I am extremely excited for today's episode for a multitude of different reasons. So one is because if you know my kind of journey, it's been one where I have wrestled with the spiritual realm and had so many questions, but at the same time dealt with some torment and dealt with some spiritual oppression. And I had more questions than answers. And I was looking for some, some thoughtful people who held the Bible in high regard, but also could speak to the supernatural and spiritual realm. And I came across this gentleman's work online and also through a mutual friend. My buddy Adam Thomason was connected to him. And so I've since like, just been peering in and, and learning a lot and having still more questions. But I'm honored to be able to be here with today's guest. So today's guest is none other than Michael Miller. A lot of you may know who Michael Miller is. He co hosts the Remnant Radio alongside Joshua Lewis and Michael Roundtree. He was discipled under Jack Deere, if you've read Surprised by the Power of the Holy Spirit. He also ran the healing ministry at Wellspring Church and he traveled with dear to minister in churches internationally. He planted a church called Reclamation Church in Denver, which trains churches nationwide in the gifts of the Spirit. And I say that with the caveat on asterisk. As soon as people hear Gifts of the Spirit, they, they go. Their brain goes all over the place. So we're going to dive into, you know, he has gone public in some controversial conversations about, you know, the New Apostolic, New Apostolic Reformation Church. And, you know, it's been good. You know, some of the stuff that's been out there, he's, he said, has been, has been helpful. And what I like about his lane, as I continue in this is that it's, it's, it's theology that's grounded in scripture, but has an awareness of the spiritual realm, practical deliverance, ministry experience, and a willingness to just kind of hold the Pentecostal or Charismatic world accountable. And so he lives at that radical middle of word and Spirit. And that's what I love about Michael Miller and today's conversation. So if that makes sense to you, if you're interested in that, you may hear some wild stories, you may hear some stuff that just sounds familiar, but we thank y' all for tuning in. Thank you. Michael Miller.

[Michael Miller]

Yeah, you have done your research here. Hey, man, I didn't know what you would know. So that's interesting. You're even using terms that you wouldn't know unless you have done some research.

[Lecrae]

Listen, I've been down a rabbit hole, man. I've been down a rabbit hole. So, you know, again, another shout out to Adam at for throwing me podcasts. And I was like, nah, I don't know about this one, man. I'm listening to him and I don't know about this. What do you think about that? What is this what is that? And I just stick with it. I get kind of, like, neurotic with stuff. When I sink my teeth into something, I just like, let me read more, Let me learn more. Let me listen more.

[Michael Miller]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

So. Man. But, yeah, I am extremely interested in just, like, some of your background, some of your story, and how you became to be the person that you are today. So where are you from? How did you meet the Lord? And then, like, you know, what. What. What puts you in the path that you're on right now?

[Michael Miller]

Yeah. Grew up in Dallas, Texas. Jewish. Mother Mormon. Father, I. The parents divorced, age one. Dad is out of the picture, age four. Mom's raising four kids on her own. Pretty broken. Sexual abuse, you know, normal neglect from father not being around. You know, it was a pretty lost and broken world. So at age 15, a friend of mine gave me a Bible, and it was somebody I used to party with. And I used to hide it in my desk because I didn't want anybody to know that I had a Bible. I didn't know what it was. I thought the Bible was a book of, like, ancient spells and secrets. Not exaggerating. Like, I just. We were, you know, nominally Jewish, you know, high holiday Jews. You go Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur. Kind of had walked away from the Mormon stuff. And so. And that was kind of all I knew. And then when somebody gave me a Bible, I didn't know what I had in my hands. So I'd get it out late at night and I'd start reading it. And it was one of those Bibles that just had the Psalms and the Proverbs in the New Testament. And so I would memorize some of the psalms because I thought, all girls will find that attractive. It's like poetry. Wow. And. And then I would read the New Testament and the Gospel of Matthew. And to me, that read like a. Like a fantasy book. Like, I liked literature. I was a. I was an avid reader. And so. But I'm like, reading this, and I'm going, people think this is true. It's like this guy, Jewish guy, goes. Does miracles. And then, like, I got it. Like, for me, it made sense to me. And so I remember trying to go somewhere where I could learn more about this. And I would find my buddy who went to church on Sunday morning, and I'd stay the night at his house, because you stay the night at his house on Saturday night, then you're going to church Sunday morning. And so that's what we did. And funny enough, it was A great little Bible church. But as soon as I got there, I'm asking them the question, like, okay, tell me about the miracles. And they're like, oh, God's not doing that today. I was like, you're kidding me. Like, okay, so all the fun stuff happened back then, but that's not happening now. Like, I had to go to church to find out what God wasn't doing. And I wouldn't really question that narrative until I was a senior in college working with an organization called Young Life. And I was really asking the question. I was at Bryan High School. I think it has maybe 3,000 students. You read about Peter healing a paralyzed man, and he'd say, silver and gold have I none. But what I give you, I give you in the name of Jesus, rise up and walk. 4,000 people come to believe in Jesus in one day. And I'm going, that seems to work a whole lot better. And so I started asking questions and praying to experience the power of God. And that kind of led me down that trajectory. I found Jack Dear's book. I prayed and asked God to let me be discipled by someone like Jack Dear. Part of the problem was I started believing in this stuff, but I couldn't handle the Pentecostal packaging, you know, the preachers that add an actual syllable to the end of every word. And Jesus. Like, for me, it just wasn't prayer cloths. Like, I'm as vanilla as it gets. Like, it's just, you know, real simple. And so I would go to those places, and I just felt so uncomfortable. And so when I read Jack's book, I was like, man, this guy can speak my language. And so I prayed and said, lord, would you please let me be discipled by someone like Jack Dear. And then I was online. I had just taken a job with Young Life in Dallas, Texas, and was online looking for more literature, and I find the church where it says Jack Dear, pastor in Fort Worth, Texas. So I'm commuting from Dallas to Fort Worth twice a week to go to his church. Now, when I was praying that prayer, let me be discipled by someone like Jack Deere, I thought he lived in Montana. And so next thing I know, I'm literally being discipled by the guy. And that kind of begins my journey. Not just Christian, but into the things of the spirit, so to speak.

[Lecrae]

Right. It's interesting because our paths are uniquely similar. I mean, I'm not Jewish, but, you know.

[Michael Miller]

You're not? Nah, nah. Okay.

[Lecrae]

Is it crazy?

[Michael Miller]

Okay, yeah. But.

[Lecrae]

But uniquely similar in that Like, I. I did not a lot of times. I wasn't raised in church, and I did not grow up in, like, a Pentecostal or charismatic environment. I actually got discipled by a football player who was going to a Bible church.

[Michael Miller]

Was it like FCA or something like that?

[Lecrae]

Yeah, it was like a Campus Crusade type of vibe.

[Michael Miller]

So where was this?

[Lecrae]

In Denton, Texas.

[Michael Miller]

Okay.

[Lecrae]

University of North Texas. So, okay, so it was a Bible church up there. And. And the things of the spirit, the supernatural stuff was like. That was. The spooky stuff. That was a different dispensation.

[Michael Miller]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, right.

[Lecrae]

So it's like, ah, that's. That. Don't get all off into that kooky, weird stuff. And I remember there was a pastor who had started a church called the Village Church, Matt Chandler. And we were warned not to go visit that church because they were like, they're a little kooky. I don't know.

[Michael Miller]

Wait, wait, the village was considered kooky?

[Lecrae]

Exactly.

[Michael Miller]

Because I'm looking, I'm like, I know the Village. And. And Matt. And I'm like, I mean, maybe more so today, but not back then.

[Lecrae]

But that's how conservative the world I was in.

[Michael Miller]

I gotcha.

[Lecrae]

It was like, so we were so far from that. And so, you know, I remember I had a roommate named Noah, and he would be pulling stuff out of his mouth all the time. And we were like, what are you doing, bro? There was nothing there. It was air. And he was like, oh, I'm pulling demons out. You know, I'm pulling out demons. And so that was just furthering my. Like, yo, yo, that's not helping. This stuff is wild.

[Michael Miller]

You know what I mean?

[Lecrae]

Like, this stuff is wild. And my buddy Ed, he goes up in his line, his prayer line, and they're prophesying over him and they're like, you know, give a hundred dollars and this is gonna happen for you. So I'm having. I'm getting terrorized by a lot of bad experiences.

[Michael Miller]

You can see why I'm doing podc, know, calling this stuff out.

[Lecrae]

Exactly.

[Michael Miller]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

Yeah, exactly.

[Michael Miller]

So.

[Lecrae]

So when I come across some of, you know, your perspective, a lot of times I'm. Or I won't say your perspective. I'll say, when I come across a. A biblical perspective that is marrying the supernatural, I get excited because I'm like, oh, this is someone who can explain these things. And in an educated manner, because I've been so abused. All that to say I. I come across, you know, I'm dealing with some. Some chronic anxiety and so on and so forth. And so I'm like, man, how do I. What is this? Is this spiritual? Is this just natural? Is this, what is this? And I'm open and, you know, Adam comes over. You know, they're like, let's pray for you. You know, let's, let's, let's go through some prayer. And he's going through like a deliverance. And I. And you know, this is, of course he's been talking with you.

[Michael Miller]

And yeah, I've been messing him up in all the right ways and spending

[Lecrae]

some time with you. And I'm like, I'm intrigued, you know, because I'm hearing some things that I hadn't heard before, and I'm willing to process some stuff. But it's. There's this roadblock for me of what is actually biblical and what's not. And then I start listening to your podcast and I'm waiting for you to jump out and say something like, really crazy, you know, like, because God. And you're like walking every question I would have, you would address it in a biblical way. I guess I'm curious. How did you get to a place where you felt like it was necessary to be very scriptural with some of these supernatural things? Because we hear people all the time that say, I just feel there's a spirit of this on, you know, but then there's no biblical basis for these types of things.

[Michael Miller]

Yeah, I don't even, I don't even like that language. I feel like there's a spirit of this. I just found it sounds so, you know, for me, I'm like, maybe so. You gotta understand, I came into this one, I have a pretty broken home. And so when it comes to trusting people, I find that somewhat difficult. Major abandonment, rejection issues. I wouldn't say I'm like, still actively dealing with those things, but I have a little bit of a skeptical disposition. And so when I started believing that God was still healing today, I couldn't handle the packaging and the reason. And today I recognize that many of these people are well meaning. Many of them actually do believe right and good things. But there's a cultural underpinning that I couldn't stomach. And I think I had seen the Benny Hinn on tv and I'm just like, I don't want to be duped. I want to know the real thing. And, you know, I'm looking at my Bible and I'm reading about Peter healing a lame man. And I'm asking myself the question, well, like, how did you do it? Like, how do you bridge the gap between what I read there and what I experience in life? Because right now my Christianity doesn't look much like theirs. And I can't say that the problem is on God's end. Like, I've got to look at that and go, I mean, I do think there's some level of God's sovereignty. He steps in. In times, in ways that he doesn't step in at other times. But. But I. But I'm like, it's got to be more supernatural than this. And I could not come up with. I mean, honestly, the strongest scriptural arguments led me towards the gifts being continued today. There is no explicit verse that says that they discontinue. So you've got. If you're going to say that life has suddenly changed or. Or that our faith should suddenly change, then you need an explicit text to tell me. So, like, I know that there is a new covenant versus an old covenant because the text explicitly says so. So that shift happened, but I wouldn't have believed it had it not been explicitly stated in Scripture. And so I'm looking at what I'm reading and I'm going, there is a major gap between my experience and what I read there. But at the same time, I don't trust the voices that are out there to tell me the truth. I always feel like somebody's selling me something or. And I just. I don't know. I just wanted to know the truth. Yeah, I guess that'd be it. I don't know. You asked me how and I'm like, I don't know. I stumbled into this. God is good.

[Lecrae]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Michael Miller]

You know, I still feel like I'm stumbling into this in many ways.

[Lecrae]

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[Michael Miller]

You're talking about him like he's an old friend. How long you been listening?

[Lecrae]

I've been knowing John.

[Michael Miller]

Okay, yeah, we go way back.

[Lecrae]

But you know, the thing I liked about John Wimber, who was the church network that he's called the Vineyard, the Vineyard Church network that he kind of was the leader of at the time, is he said, I looked in the scriptures and I was like, wait, it doesn't say the gift stopped. So why am I acting like they did Well, I want to pray for healing. And he said, for three years, no one got healed.

[Michael Miller]

A lot of people got sick from praying for the sick.

[Lecrae]

Exactly. And I love that sincerity, because it's the opposite of what I think our culture and media does today is it promises these instantaneous things, like we have control of the power of God and we can just snap our fingers and make something happen, versus a dependency on a supernatural spiritual realm and a God to act. And I think that's some of the struggle that I've had. But at the same time, you're still out there hoping that God does stuff. And that's where I'm kind of intrigued, is like, you're still going out there doing deliverance ministry, praying for the sick, asking for healing, and you clearly have evidence that God is showing up. Otherwise, I don't. I mean, would you keep. Continue doing it? I don't know.

[Michael Miller]

I mean, I hope I would. I mean, if I'm a Christian, right. So I'm supposed to be a person of the book.

[Lecrae]

Yeah.

[Michael Miller]

My faith is supposed to be derived from what is clearly spelled in scripture, not from my experience. So I hope I would be obedient. I'm thankful that I have seen things. Let me tell you the first time I saw something. So for two years, I prayed for the sick. And you get some people who say they're healed, but there's that part of me that's going, how do I know? How do I know it's not something psychosomatic? How do I know you haven't convinced yourself in your own zeal and excitement and desire for healing? How do I know you're not just, like, trying to make me feel good? And so I would have people tell me they were healed, to which I would immediately explain away, or I would have people tell me they weren't healed. And I go, okay, that makes sense. I trust that at least that person's honest. And then two years into this, I pray for a young girl. Her mom brought she and her brother into to receive prayer. And this is a time where I'm, like, serving in a prayer ministry because I'm trying to learn how to do this and get some practice in and just see how this goes. Because I figure, like, you know, not everybody who I evangelize to gives their lives to Jesus. Okay? That's the greatest miracle we could see. So if I want to see people come to Christ, I just preach to more people. The same thing is true with healing. And so anyway, I'm praying for this family. I pray for the son first. Now the son has non verbal autism. I'm like, I'm in over my head here, bro. So I pray for that nothing happens. And I pray for the daughter. She came in, she's got this, like, facial gear. You know, people have braces, and then there's people who have a brace that goes around their face. That's what she had. And the mom's like, yeah, would you pray for my daughter's face? I'm like, okay, nothing happens. And so I'd haphazardly ask the question, is there anything else I can pray for? The daughter says, yeah, will you pray for my knees? And I think to myself, okay, you know, something else I can pray for where there's no real way of knowing, you know? So, you know, I pray and. And I feel this, like, kind of heat in my, my stomach that I thought, that's a little different. It's like a. Drinking a cup of coffee on a cold day. You know, that feeling you get? And I was like, that's. That's interesting. And so I'm asking her to check it out, and she stands up and she's like, you know, I can't really tell unless I'm playing sports. And I'm like, of course, you know. And then she looks down at her feet, and it's like this moment of silence for a second, and she looks at me and she says, my feet are straight. And then she starts crying and saying, my feet are straight. My feet are straight. My feet are straight. Now, when she walked in, I remember having this like kind of superficial mental note in my head. Oh, she walks funny. She kind of walks like a duck. Like, her feet were kind of turned outward like that. And now I'm looking down and I'm going, oh, no, that happened. And they're like hugging me and thanking me. And I'm like, I didn't even think anything would happen. That's the truth. And I get out of there and I remember, here's the funny thing. The night before that I had been crying out to God and telling him I was really frustrated with him. And I said some things I kind of regret because I was sick of not seeing things happen. And I was just frustrated. Now, the truth is I was wanting to see something cool. That's it. You know, it's like, I could just believe it in the scripture because it's there. But in this case, it's like I really wanted to see something cool. I wanted to know. But after this family is hugging me and thanking me And I'm realizing, like, I didn't deserve much of any of this. Like, I didn't do anything. I didn't even think anything would happen. Which tells you how much faith I didn't have. Yeah. You know, people talk about like, oh, you gotta have faith. I'm like, I didn't at all. And. And I get in the car afterwards and I remember I had this old beat up S10 Blazer, and it's the middle of summer and. And you know, things were, you know, pretty hot in Texas. And I just sat there and I said, lord, I'm so sorry. I said, I'll do this the rest of my life. And it wasn't about the results. It wasn't about seeing something cool. It was. I knew that that family had just been transformed. God didn't heal the autism. He didn't heal the big, big problem. He healed the thing that probably she could have lived with the rest of her life and had been okay. And it was just a sign to me that he cares about the small things. But the other thing that really matters is one day the resurrection is going to happen. That one little thing told me that the resurrection is real. We just tasted the power of it. Now, I may not have seen all that's going to happen. It's like, I liken it to going to a fancy dinner where you get like the hors d'. Oeuvres. Nobody eats the hors d' oeuvres and thinks to themselves, I'm at the banquet. No, the hors d' oeuvre is like whetting the appetite. It lets you know the banquet is coming. It causes you to hunger. Just the opposite is happening. It ignites the hunger. And I think that's what miracles do today, is they ignite the hunger for the day when not just that one little thing in my body is made right, but all of it is made right.

[Lecrae]

Yeah. I'm curious because there's two people who are hearing what you're saying. And, and there's only two people. Right. There's. There's generally not a third person. There's two polarized views on what you're saying. There's the view of absolutely, praise God. And there's the view of see, this is what I'm saying. I just don't buy this man. Generally speaking, and I'm being very general.

[Michael Miller]

Sure.

[Lecrae]

Generally speaking, those who say absolutely. What we're shown via social media, media, whatever, are usually less educated or not formally trained in the scriptures or truth.

[Michael Miller]

Sure.

[Lecrae]

Those who say, I don't believe this at all. Generally are more well read or Western, Westernized in terms of intellectuals.

[Michael Miller]

You say that to me, well read. And I'm going, but it's right there. Okay, well, yes. I don't know what to say.

[Lecrae]

Extra biblical of the Bible, so to speak. Do you have any perspective of why you think that is? And like, because you actually sit in between those spaces.

[Michael Miller]

Right. I think the person who says amen, it's supposed to happen every time I look at him and go, you live in a fantasy world, bro. My life I see probably more than most, but life, My co host Michael Roundry said this day to day life is painfully mundane. I don't see near as much as I'd like to and maybe if I was better at it, but I'm nowhere near as capable as the Lord was. And then for the person who says, I don't buy it, I go, I get it. Why would you buy it? You haven't seen it. I totally understand that. I can relate to that. Nobody wants to be duped. And I don't think skepticism is counter to faith. There is a difference between skepticism and unbelief. Skepticism says, hey, look, I don't want to be duped. I want the real thing. That's a person that wants truth to that. Jesus likes that. Right. Truth is supposed to be what we pursue. Truth in all things, honesty. But the person who's unbelieving, that's someone who is defiant in their unbelief. They say, no, no, no, no, I will not believe that. And I go, then I don't know what to tell you. God will allow you to make your own choice. He'll respect that.

[Lecrae]

That's good.

[Michael Miller]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

As it pertains. So when it's. When it comes to demons, sure.

[Michael Miller]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

Now people get really like in a lot of different camps. Right. People start, they're all over the place. As it pertains to demons, they're. Which is. It's interesting to me because we believe that Christians believe that like God came in flesh and died and resurrected and then we'll go live off.

[Michael Miller]

Yeah, a virgin birth. Yeah. All this, you know, water turned to wine.

[Lecrae]

All of it. But yet when it comes to demonic figures, we're like, I don't know about that. Like, when was the first time you encountered a demon? Tell us about that.

[Michael Miller]

So the first time I encountered a demon and realized it because I'm sure we've encountered plenty. Sure. The first time I encountered a demon and realized it, I was in South Africa doing a Conference on gifts of the Spirit. And so I was working with an Indian population. Biggest population of Indians outside of India is in South Africa. They were all taken down there as slaves. And so I'm ministering amongst that, that group of people. And this man keeps asking me to pray for his wife. Now, I'm a young 20 something at the time, maybe 27, which feels young to me. And I'm thinking to myself, like, I'm not even married. And I'm going, bro, I can't fix your marriage. Like, I don't know what's going on there. But I'm like, I'm not, I'm not capable. And so, you know, I'm like, yeah, I'll pray for her. And he kind of finally corners me and gets me to pray with he and his wife. And so as I'm praying for her, well, I'm not even praying, I'm just asking questions. And this is kind of the model that Jack Dear taught us. You know, you want to find out if somebody's got a problem, what's the problem they want? You know, the blind guy that comes to the Lord Jesus doesn't assume that he wants prayer for blindness. He says, what would you like for me to do to you? Do for. You know, And I think that's the most loving thing we can do is not to assume that, you know, what I can blatantly see in front of me is the problem I need to fix. But rather, who are you? Tell me about you. Let me help you.

[Lecrae]

Yeah.

[Michael Miller]

And so I'm asking her, what would you like, you know, what do you need prayer for? She goes, oh, I don't know. And I'm like, I'm looking at the husband and he's. And I'm like, well, your husband says you need prayer. What do you think he thinks you need prayer for? She goes, oh, I don't know. Sometimes I feel confused. And I'm like. It feels to me like the woman doesn't want to be there. And so I'm asking her, okay, well, like, when did the confusion start? How long have you felt confused? And then she just turns to me and she says, I don't like you. When she said that, I was like, this is something else. And I looked at her and I said, what do you do to this woman? And he goes, oh, you wouldn't know.

[Lecrae]

This is her saying this. Yeah, but, but like her mouth, it's

[Michael Miller]

her voice, her mouth, but something else speaking. And she's gone. And I, I said, what do you mean? I Said, what do you do? This woman? He says, I play games. I said, what games do you play? I cause murder. I cause divorce. Now, when she said that, it wasn't just. It wasn't just her saying or the demon saying what it did. It was a threat. It was like, I caused murder. And by the way, I'm gonna kill you too. And I remember. I mean, I was. I was terrified. I felt this. Like, it wasn't. I don't know how to. Trying to explain the numinous, the spiritual, and put it into human terms. I find that my words are lacking because in this moment, I felt this overwhelming, pervasive sense of darkness. And it felt like it was gonna swallow me whole. And I remember just feeling like my life was really in jeopardy. And then I hear this voice, and it's one of the few times I would say that I've heard the Lord clearly wasn't an audible voice. It was just, like, a thought that played in my head, but it was so crystal clear, and it was so out of nowhere. And it said, michael, don't be afraid. It's trying to intimidate you. And I remember, like, in that moment going, oh, yeah, that's what these things do. But the voice that spoke didn't just speak words. It came with peace. It's like peace just pushed back the darkness. And I just felt totally at ease. All the fear gone. And I looked at her and the demon, I guess, and I said, well, you're done doing that. And I said, how did you get in? I said, I was sent here. And I said, who sent you? Said, rita. I'm looking at the husband. I'm going, who's Rita? And he goes, that's my sister. Like, what? And he goes, well, when we got married, they've been married 30 years. Because when we got married, my sister was a Hindu priestess. I came from a Hindu background. My wife is Christian. So the demon is speaking through a Christian woman. And the husband is saying, my sister didn't want me to marry her. And I'm like, I still can't put it together. Because at this time, I did not understand how that worked. But what I realized later was his sister, the Hindu priestess, was trying to cause them to get a divorce and cursed his fiance, now his wife. And so they'd had marital problems, 30 years of marital problems. And so I command the spirit to come out of her. And it's like something just comes up and then out. And this woman kind of collapses and just starts crying and, like, literally collapses into me. I'm holding her up. And one of the things I forgot to mention was I asked the demon, how did you get in? Because just somebody curse you doesn't mean it's going to automatically take effect. There's got to be something that allowed it to come in. And the demon said, fear. And so I'm. Which actually is kind of an interesting thing. But anyway, it comes out of her. I sit down with her and I begin to talk to her about her fear issues, how she would give in to every fearful thought that came into her head and just riddled with anxiety. I walked her through some prayers of repentance. And so she gets set free. Two years later, I'm back in South Africa. I get to hang out with the community again, and I get to follow up with them. And they're doing fine. And that thing is gone. And it's like they've got a new marriage.

[Lecrae]

Yeah.

[Michael Miller]

And so that was the beginning. I felt like I got thrown into the deep end. Oh, that's funny. That's the name of your podcast. Yeah. That was not intentional.

[Lecrae]

So I'm now, now I'm curious because with. With, you know, someone listening could say, well, how, why, why could you command it out? Why couldn't she command it out? Why did it listen to you? You know, of all people like it,

[Michael Miller]

is there something special about me? I know that for a fact.

[Lecrae]

Right.

[Michael Miller]

My wife knows that for a fact. I don't think there is anything special about me. I think what gives people the rights to do these things is being a Christian. So Paul says, we're seated in heavenly places. Now, some charismatics do really weird things with that passage. They use it to talk about some, like, weird metaphysical reality where, like, part of you is seated here on this podcast, but there's another part of you in heaven with Christ. That's not what it means. He's using a metaphor. He's saying we are seated in heavenly places in Christ. And then he goes on to explain what the metaphor means. Above every rule, above every authority, above every power. So because we're in Christ, we have authority over these things. I don't think that deliverance ministry, authority to cast out demons is because I have some sort of special gift of the spirit. I don't think it's gift related. I think it's position related. Are you in Christ? And therefore we get to carry out the ministry of Christ, which is to set free those who are oppressed of the devil. And so that's it. Now you asked three questions all at once. You asked, well, why didn't she do it herself? Well, she might have been able to do it. I don't know. You know, when I look in Scripture, when it comes to deliverance, I don't see a prescription given in Scripture that says, deliver yourself. You know, I see James, confess your sins, each to one another, that you may be healed. It seems like there is a way in which God has set things up in the church, that we are to be reliant upon one another and in community and in these ways, we help one another out. I think about my own rejection and abandonment issues, you know, overcoming a lot of that required friends who would tell me the truth, even the hard truth, the truth I didn't want to hear and call me to repentance. So, I mean, it could have worked that way. I just don't think that's necessarily what's prescribed in Scripture.

[Lecrae]

Yeah. And then as it pertains to, you know, demon possession, you said something that would cause some people to say, no, I'm done. I'm not listening anymore. You said this woman was a Christian.

[Michael Miller]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

So talk a little bit about, you know, because that's a. That's a. That's a perspective that few people talk about publicly. Right. Or at least theologically, that the idea of Christians being oppressed by. By demons.

[Michael Miller]

Well, the word oppression is used once in Scripture. Jesus went about doing good and setting free those who are oppressed of the devil. But the word most often employed to talk about evil spirits and their impact on a person is, in English, possessed. Problem is, possession today doesn't mean what it once meant. Words change meaning over time. So like in Elizabethan English, the word possession means something quite different than what it means today. Today we talk about possession. I'm like, this. This is my possession. Possession is 9/10 of the law. I own this. I can control this. But that's not necessarily how it was used when it was originally being put into the English language. So let me give you another example of this. The word awful. Today we use the word awful to talk about, like, having the flu. And I was like, oh, it's truly awful. That's not how it was used in Elizabethan English. In Elizabethan English, they would use the word awful to describe a cathedral. How it would fill you with awe, awe at the wonder of God. So the word in Greek that is being employed is diamonds. Am I. And what they're doing is they're taking a noun, demon, and they're turning it into a verb. We do this in English Language all the time. If I want to take the noun theology and turn it into a verb, I'd say something like, don't theologize me. Okay? That's exactly what they're doing in Greek. So the most literal translation for the word daimonizomai would. Would be demonize. Okay. That kind of puts it on a spectrum, you know, varying degrees of demonization. And so you've got, if you will, a sliding scale that goes from 0 to 10. When you think of level 0 demonization, we think of the Lord, the devil has nothing in me. When you think of level 10 demonization in scripture, you see, probably the most demonized person is the Gerasene demoniac, right? He's got a whole Roman cohort of demons. But the interesting thing is people will say the word possessed, but possession means ownership. Last I checked, demons don't run to Jesus, they run away from him. That's right. And yet this man was able to come to the Lord. So when we talk about what the devil does and does not own, the devil doesn't own anything. He's living on borrowed time. And so. Okay, that leads us. This is a much bigger question you're asking. Sorry, it takes a while to pass.

[Lecrae]

No, no, no, no, please, we need this.

[Michael Miller]

Okay, well, so then, if you've got the right way of thinking about it, demons don't take over the totality of a human being. They're much more like a parasite. A parasite afflicts a particular part of the body, and it has a particular impact on the body. Same thing is true with demons. The woman in Luke 13, we're told she had a spirit of infirmity. Did it own her? Did it cause her to be deaf? Did it cause her to be mute? No. All that we know of is it caused her to be bent over with scoliosis. Okay, but it didn't speak through her.

[Lecrae]

Right.

[Michael Miller]

Then you've got a deaf spirit. What does it do? Well, it causes deafness. See, these spirits are just afflicting one part of the body. They're not taking complete and total ownership of the person. And so that's what we're seeing with evil spirits. So then you ask the question, well, can a Christian have a demon? Somebody once asked John Wimber that question. His response was, well, a Christian can have anything he wants, but who'd want a demon? Love that. There is no explicit text in Scripture that says, yes, Christians can have demons. There also is no explicit text in Scripture that says, no, Christians cannot have demons. And so then all we have left is inferential evidence. So we have to do a systematic theology. We have to go through every reference of demonization and find out what does it have to say about Christian in relation to a demon. And then we have the early church fathers. So what I see, I think the case to be made inferentially is that, yes, Christians can have demons. I think that is the largest sampling of scripture leaning in that direction. I think of the person in Ephesus. You know, Paul writes to the Ephesians, says, be angry, yet do not sin. Don't let the sun go down on your anger, and do not give the devil a foothold. Because he's writing to believers in Ephesus and he's telling them, hey, anger, normal, healthy human emotion. But don't live in anger. Especially don't sin in anger. Why you do not want to give the devil a foothold. The word foothold in Greek is tapos. It means occupied plot of land. Can we use the word foothold when we talk about World War II D Day? You know, we were. The United States was trying to gain a foothold in Western France, Western Europe, a place from which they could conduct further warfare. They needed somewhere to land so that they could begin operations. Do you really want to give the devil a place to land in your life, a plot and that? I mean, again, it's not explicit, but inferentially he's warning believers about living in anger, saying, don't do that, and here's why. And there's a number of scriptures that lead to that as well. There was a book called Demon Possession of the Christian and the Early Church. It was written by Thomas Camps. I believe I might have the name wrong, but he documents what the early church fathers had to say about this. And it was unanimous amongst all the early church fathers. It wasn't even a question. Yes, Christians have demons. Tertullian. He's probably one of the more famous early church fathers, lived from 160 A.D. to 230 A.D. you ever heard the word Trinity?

[Lecrae]

Sure.

[Michael Miller]

Yeah, of course. You know, you won't find that word in your Bible.

[Lecrae]

That's right.

[Michael Miller]

The guy who coined that word is Tertullian. Now, I'm not saying that the doctrine isn't in the Bible. I think it's explicitly in the text of Scripture. We believe that God exists in three persons yet as one being. But it was the person Tertullian who so perfectly found the word to describe how our God exists. Three persons, yet one being. Well, here's what he had to say about the Christian and whether or not they could be demonized or have a demon. He says, why might not those who go into the temptations of the show fall into the snare of the devil? Now, what he was referring to was there was a woman who was demonized. And he says, when the unclean creature was upbraided having to dare to attack a believer, it firmly replied, she was in my domain. Okay, what does he mean? Well, in the Roman amphitheater, they had all kinds of acts of lewdness, sinful acts. And so here's this believing woman who went to the Roman theater and she came back vexed by an evil spirit. And so. And he's like, look, if you're going to go back to your sin, then guess what? You're going to welcome back your old demons.

[Lecrae]

No, that's. Actually. It testifies to why I personally appreciate you, is because you put way more thoughtfulness and study into these responses. Into these.

[Michael Miller]

Yeah, I wish I had faster answers for you.

[Lecrae]

No, no, no. We talk a lot, but it's great because a lot of times people, they, you know, it's like people who will say things like, you might have a demon, or there's a spirit of this on you, they don't have a. A theological understanding of why or how that could be a reality. They're just saying, nah, this is what this is. And oftentimes it's kind of like, well, how do you know? How do I know what? Where's the manual on this? How do I know if I'm not just sick? And it's, you know, because, you know, my grandmother would be like, you might be you. That ain't sickness. That's a demon. How do you know, Grandma? You know what I mean? And so, so you walk into these, these strange waters. Oh, go ahead.

[Michael Miller]

Well, I was gonna say it's hard for me to answer some of these questions because I'm trying to do it in five minutes. I know there's other things you want to talk about. That's a teaching I would literally spend one to two hours on with a church. If I go do a conference, I'm gonna spend just one full session dealing with misconceptions around this topic. And so I'm, I'm trying to. I just cannot give a comprehensive case in, in that amount of time.

[Lecrae]

I totally understand. Time out, time out, time out. I know I'm interrupting the conversation, and this is a good conversation, but I, I just need to interrupt you. I'm reminded of a season in my life where I knew something wasn't right mentally, but I kept pushing it off like I'm good, I'll pray about it, I'll shake it off. And meanwhile, I'm not sleeping right, I'm distracted and I'm not fully present. And the truth is sometimes you need more than just pushing through. You need to talk with somebody. That's why I love Talk Iatry. So what talk I tried IS is a 100% online psychiatry practice that provides comprehensive evaluations, diagnosis and ongoing medication management for conditions like adhd, anxiety, depression and more. And this is important because unlike therapy, only apps Talk Iatry is psychiatry. That means you're seeing a medical provider who's going to diagnose mental health conditions and prescribe medication when it's appropriate. So this isn't guesswork. All their 600 plus clinicians are in network with major insurancers. So you can use your existing insurance instead of paying monthly subscriptions or out of network fees. No extra hoops to jump through. You're going to meet with an experienced licensed psychiatrist who takes the time to understand what's actually going on. It's going to build a personal treatment program for you and can prescribe medication when it's right for you so your care stays consistent and evidence based. And it's very quick to get started. What you do is you complete a short online assessment. You're going to get matched with clinicians who fit your needs and schedule your first visit in days, not months. Over 300,000 people have already done this, so if you've been putting this off, man, just go on over to talkyatry.com Lecrae complete the short assessment, get matched with an in network psychiatrist in a few minutes. It's talkyatry.com

[Jana Kramer]

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[Lecrae]

though, because there's been a time period for you in your deliverance ministry where nothing was working.

[Michael Miller]

I don't have a deliverance ministry. Just for the record. Okay. I'm a Christian pastor. I get asked to do a lot of service.

[Lecrae]

Yes, in your service, but there was a time where nothing was working. I guess it's. Is it Sagosa Springs? Is that how you say it?

[Michael Miller]

Oh, I know where you're going with this. Yeah. Pagosa Springs.

[Lecrae]

Pagosa Springs. Walk me through what happened there.

[Michael Miller]

Somebody's been doing their homework on me. You're asking me the weird stories.

[Lecrae]

I'm just curious.

[Michael Miller]

Yeah, I've heard them all, by the way.

[Lecrae]

But I think, you know, that one is intriguing to me because nothing was working.

[Michael Miller]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

And. And I have a buddy, John Mark Comer, who has a very similar.

[Michael Miller]

Yeah, I know about Tammy. I listen. I think that. Dude, I'd love to sit and have a conversation with them sometime.

[Lecrae]

Yeah.

[Michael Miller]

Yeah. So I'm in Pagosa Springs, Colorado, doing a conference, and this woman is asking for prayer. And, you know, it's like everything in life just keeps falling apart ever since they moved to Pagosa. Actually, she was over at Matt Chandler's church prior to being in Pagosa. Okay. So anyway, you know, we're just talking, and I'm asking her all the normal questions, like, well, how long has these problems been going on? And there's just not a real pat answer. And I'm like, lord, what is this? And I had something come into my mind, and it was this sort of obscure curse that I learned about. And it was a curse that was placed on the Scottish people by a number of different clans, by name by the archbishop of the Catholic Church named Gavin Dunbar. He placed a curse on all of the border reivers, or clans of Scotland because they were known to come in, steal, pillage, murder, rape. It was really bad. And so he cursed them and their descendants after them. This is, like, 500 years ago. And so I'm like, going, golly, could that be a thing? I'm like, do you happen to have any Scottish ancestry? And she's like, no, no. And. And her husband was like, well, what about your grandmother? Isn't she Scottish? And she's like, oh yeah, yeah. No, I think she is Scottish. And I was like, this is going to be weird, but could we just entertain this for a second? I want you to repeat after me, Jesus. I renounce the sins of my Scottish ancestry. They're thieving their stealing, their murder, their violence. And I ask that you would forgive me insofar as I have participated in likewise sins. And then, Lord, would you set me free from any curse that's come because of this? And so then I pray and I said, in the name Lord Jesus, may the curse of Gavin Dunbar be broken. And I command every enforcing spirit to come out now in Jesus name. This girl goes catatonic on me like, like just stiff as a board, mouth open, so sort of hanging agape and there's drool coming down her mouth and then all like. And I don't. It wasn't long, but it was like, obviously I'm like, oh no, I broke her. You know, and then, and then this exhale comes and then she just starts bawling, crying, you know, I give her a hug and kind of let that be in hug the husband. Next day I go to pick my kids up because my kids were in the childcare while I was teaching there. And I run into her, I said, how are you? And she just starts crying again and she says, I had no idea. I've been living with that thing my entire life. And I was like, yeah. And she's thanking me and I'm like, I can't believe that even happened. But since then I've seen that particular curse a number of times. And the thing about it that that curse is actually written out to this day on a thing called the Stone of Monition in Scotland. Now the person who first told me about it was a guy named Ken Fish who's, he's a really amazing deliverance minister. Like he, he weirds me out in all the right ways. I'm like, I don't know what to do with that. But that's where I first heard about it. And now I've seen it a number of times now.

[Lecrae]

Now because it. What gives a curse power? Like how are we to know if a curse is effective or ineffective? How does that person know what is it that actually allows the curse to take root?

[Michael Miller]

So I don't think demons just get free reign to afflict whoever they want. And the way that curses function, I believe they're carried out by evil spirits. So you think of the curses of the Deuteronomic Covenant, you know, in Malachi they're failing to pay their tithe. And he says, I'll rebuke the devourer. You know, they were under a curse, and there was a spirit that was enforcing that curse. Or you've got Saul. He broke the covenant, and the spirit of God left and departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from God came upon Saul and he raged in the midst of his house. So it's my belief that curses are enforced by evil spirits. Now, what makes a curse effective? Well, it's the same thing that would make demons gain ground. Sin, evil spirits, traffic and sin. If you're not in sin, you've got nothing to fear from evil spirits or curses. You know, a curse without a cause cannot alight. So, like that woman I prayed for in South Africa. Well, the reason the curse was able to land was because she would give in to every fearful thought. Now, my assumption is giving into all those fearful thoughts was sinful for her. And the same thing is probably true here. I'm guessing when it came to the curse of Gavin Dunbar, this woman must have stolen something at some time in her life, and therefore that curse got activated. Evil spirit was there to do what it does. Now, I want to caveat that because people will think that if you have a demon, well, you must have done something really wrong. That's actually not true. Demons traffic in sin. They don't care if it's your sin. They don't care if it's someone else's sin against you. They don't care if it's the sin of your ancestors. They're wicked and they traffic in sin. Yeah, that's how they work. And so I say that because some people that are demonized, it has nothing to do what they did or didn't do. Sometimes it's what happened to them.

[Lecrae]

Now, what, hypothetically, let's say you had no idea about this Scottish curse.

[Michael Miller]

Like this woman, right?

[Lecrae]

Like, she just lives with this for the rest of her life because no one knows to ask for this specific curse.

[Michael Miller]

She certainly lives for all of that part of her life.

[Lecrae]

Right? So I guess that's. That's more. I mean, it's a reality. I mean, there's people who live their entire lives without knowing Jesus. So I'm not saying it's an impossibility, but I'm just saying is. Is that just the reality? If you. If. If I'm walking around not knowing about a curse of my ancestors, that's. That's consistently afflicting me, and I don't know that a deliverance ministry Exists. It's just. Would you say it's the same as not knowing Jesus exists? Like, you just. I'm sorry, you just don't. There's no.

[Michael Miller]

Well, Lecrae, how long have you been a Christian?

[Lecrae]

Over 20 years.

[Michael Miller]

20 years. There was a point in time where you didn't know Christ, and then you did know him.

[Lecrae]

Yep.

[Michael Miller]

Did Jesus, when you. When you came to him, you repented from your sin?

[Lecrae]

Of course.

[Michael Miller]

Okay, you repent from all your sin?

[Lecrae]

As far as I know.

[Michael Miller]

Okay, so what, you knew. Did you ever have to repent later?

[Lecrae]

Yes.

[Michael Miller]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

I live in constant repentance.

[Michael Miller]

Yeah. Well, you know, what happens is you come to Christ and you're walking away from sin. In that moment, you're going, I gotta repent and I gotta. I'm gonna give my life to Jesus. I'm gonna follow him. A little while later, the Holy Spirit shows up and says, hey, what about that? You're like, dang it, I gotta get rid of that too. Yeah, that's gonna be hard. Okay. Lord, you're. Lord. I'm constantly making Jesus the Lord of my life, but it's not like he revealed every sin in my life. The moment I came to Christ. That'd be overwhelming. Like I would feel paralyzed by my sin. He sanctifies us, right? We have this in the reformed world. I have been sanctified. I am being sanctified. And one day I will be fully sanctified. I think that's true with all of this stuff. I have been delivered. I am being delivered. And one day I will be fully delivered. And so do I think you could live with a curse and not know it? Yeah, I mean, I think I could. I'm not terrified about it, but in my mind, I'm not terrified of demons. Like I said, I look at them like little critters, like little hitchhikers that picked up at some point in time. And suddenly having the knowledge that one could be there doesn't really change reality for me. Probably been there my whole life. And I just trust the Lord, like, Lord, you're sovereign in the same way that you revealed sins to me. And he's kind when he does that. You're going to reveal these things to me as well, on one side of the resurrection or the other. But one thing is clear. I will be redeemed. I will be delivered. I will be made whole. One day, everything will be made right. Every single deliverance I see. Today isn't just about today. It's a testimony that one day Satan and his angels will be thrown into a lake of fire. One day we will be fully delivered. But we're living in that tension now. Yeah, same thing with healing. You know, I've been healed, but one day I will be fully healed.

[Lecrae]

So you've seen people afflicted with demons. We see it in the scriptures. We see, like, the. I don't know, the supernatural capabilities or powers. I don't know to what degree you believe demons, you know, are dealing with nations or anything along these lines. But you're not afraid of them. Talk to us. Tell us, like, why? Why are you not afraid of them?

[Michael Miller]

Because I belong to Jesus.

[Lecrae]

Right.

[Michael Miller]

He's preeminent.

[Lecrae]

Do you not see them as powerful entities?

[Michael Miller]

Oh, I definitely do. I mean, you see second Peter two talking about not speaking about these things without any sense of reverence. Like, there's supposed to be some reverence and understanding. And Jude, he says, even Michael the archangel didn't presuppose to speak a word against the devil, but instead said, the Lord rebuke you. So there is an amount of reverence that I have. I don't worship them, sure, but I also don't live in fear from them. But, I mean, think of it this way. I was listening to Matt Chandler. I loved. He was on a podcast recently. I thought this was such a good thing. This guy tells a story of a woman who was threatened with death and either renounce Jesus or I'm going to kill you. She refuses to renounce Jesus. The man shoots her, goes through her eyes. She survives but is blind. And I love Matt's response to this. He goes, yeah, see? What can you take from that woman? What else is it? You want to take my life? Well, to die is Christ. You want to let me live? Well, live is gain. I'm like, I'm not supposed to be afraid of anything in Christ. My life belongs in his hands. You know, I hear people make what I think is kind of a humble statement, like, well, I don't know what I would do if I was threatened with death. And I'm going, you don't know what you do. Like, I thought I made that decision when I was 15 years old. My life belongs to Jesus. Like, I already made that decision. What do you mean, you don't know what you would do? And I get it. I get like, we don't really know how we'll behave until we're faced with that. But that's how I mean, I truly believe that. But I've also seen the Lord Jesus show dominion over the power of Darkness.

[Lecrae]

Yeah.

[Michael Miller]

I had a lady in Austria, we have this testimony on the Remnant Radio. She had endometriosis. Okay. About an hour asking questions, trying to figure out what's the cause of that endometriosis, come to the conclusion that it was demonic. It was a spirit of misogyny and violence, and I command those things to come out of her, and she starts to hyperventilate. And since then, no symptoms of endometriosis. The endometriosis was so bad that she would have to get blood transfusions and iron supplements because of the excessive amount of bleeding and because of the pain. This woman's in her 40s. She's had that since the day she started her menstrual cycle.

[Lecrae]

Oh, wow.

[Michael Miller]

Okay. No symptoms ever since then. She has her next menstrual cycle two weeks later, which in Austria, I mean, Austrians are so, like, blunt about all of those kind of things. And she's like, I didn't know it was supposed to be like this. Like, is this what it's like for other women to have a menstrual cycle? Like, I didn't know it was supposed to be like this Easy.

[Lecrae]

Yeah. So you see, I guess what I think I. If I interpret you correctly, what you're

[Michael Miller]

saying is I've seen Jesus exercise dominion.

[Lecrae]

Right? And it's so. It's not that they. That they're not powerful or that they can't harm us. It's that Jesus is greater.

[Michael Miller]

Yeah, they can and they do harm.

[Lecrae]

Right.

[Michael Miller]

But my God is more powerful than all the gods of this earth. Yeah, he is greater. He is preeminent. He is sovereign. I mean, let's. Let's sing the creed song. Like, I'm like, let's go.

[Lecrae]

Okay.

[Michael Miller]

That's how I feel.

[Lecrae]

You said the gods of this earth, which. What is a demon? Right. Some say it's a nephilim. Some say fallen angel.

[Michael Miller]

Yeah. I mean, you had Joel on your podcast recently. I saw. We had him on our show too. I like him. You know, I tend to take the Heiser view. Okay. Michael Heiser, unseen realm. But let's be clear. The scriptures are not clear about where these things come from and what they are. Jesus will call them unclean. You look at unclean in the Old Testament, that has to do with things that cross realms. Like, certain foods were considered unclean, like lobsters. It a land animal. Like, this is a bottom dweller. Is it a sea animal? Like, those things were forbidden. Anything that seemed to break with divine order and cross realms. So in their kosher dietary restrictions. They lived with divine order. And so it wasn't anything about the food. It was supposed to be a representation of how Israel was to be set apart and live under God's divine order in all things, even in their food that they ate. So Jesus calls the spirit an unclean spirit. Well, that's something that breaks with divine order. And so the Nephilim thing, you know, angels that procreated with women in Genesis 6, that's an unclean union, right? There's something crossing the realms, breaking with divine order. You've got some Second Temple literature, extra biblical literature, not scripture, but does get referenced both in 2 Peter 2 and in Jude. First reference to the Lake of Fire. Revelation is actually found in Enoch. And it does talk about how those Nephilim, because they were born of women, they would be cursed to the earth. But because they were spirit born of angels or the gods, Elohim, they will live an eternal existence, cursed on the earth without a body. I mean, that kind of describes what we're seeing with unclean spirits. They don't have bodies. They're disembodied spirits. So I think Heiser's right. I'm not going to take a dogmatic stance on it. Here's what I know. Demons, bad. Let's get rid of them.

[Lecrae]

Well, it's not their fault. They're just born of unclean people. Man. They didn't ask for this.

[Michael Miller]

I mean, from what you see in scripture, I mean, it says that the thoughts and intentions of mankind were evil continually. So when you looked at their cursed existence, it doesn't sound like they were just innocent. It sounds like they were really wicked and evil.

[Lecrae]

There's no redemption for the dark spirits, huh? There's just some.

[Michael Miller]

Yeah, there ain't no redemption.

[Lecrae]

You're born into this and this is it.

[Michael Miller]

The Rolling Stones are wrong.

[Lecrae]

So the. The other. This is a random, weird question that pops into my brain every time I think about the union of Nephilim and human beings. I'm like, nephilim have semen. No, no.

[Michael Miller]

You mean. You mean.

[Lecrae]

I mean, not Nephilim.

[Michael Miller]

Angels.

[Lecrae]

Angels. Angels have semen. They can procreate. Like, I'm just. I'm. Now I'm getting into the anatomy of these angelic beings and I'm like, how. What is that? Maybe this is beyond my pay grade.

[Michael Miller]

I mean, that's actually an interesting thing. Like, you see this reference, this weird little scripture in Corinthians where he says, for it is a dishonor for a woman to have her Head uncovered. And then he says, why? Because of the angels. Now, in the ancient world, there's a guy named Hippocrates. He used to write medical journals. In the ancient world, everybody takes the Hippocratic oath when they commit to be a doctor, do no harm. In his writings, he talks about how the hair of a woman is what allowed her to produce a child. It would draw the seed of the man up into the woman. They believe the hair was hollow. So how do you know when a woman can procreate? Well, she had hair. And so that idea that a woman living with her hair uncovered is like a man with his genitalia out, that's kind of the way it's being perceived. And so it says, because of the angels seems to be a sort of reference to Genesis 6. Again, all of this is really speculative. I'm not going to make any document. I mean, you're asking me things. I don't know with any kind of certainty. But. But this is what I think. I mean, it does seem like the gods, the Elohim, that they are able to take on a human body and human form, but yet they're divine. Whereas the Nephilim, they were the offspring, and evil spirits are disembodied spirits.

[Lecrae]

I'm gonna flip the script a little bit. All right.

[Michael Miller]

Yeah, please do. Because this is Joel's territory. Michael Heiser. I'm like, I'm not good there.

[Lecrae]

You've walked in the worlds of a lot of charismatic leaders in Pentecost. Leaders. I didn't even know that there was a distinction between Pentecostal and Charismatic. I had to go on a rabbit trail to understand the origins of the Pentecostal movement and Azusa street and then understand the charismatics and just. But you've walked in these spaces, in these worlds, and oftentimes, like, I remember, you know, being a Christian rapper, I can navigate in every kind of space. So I may be in a reformed space, I may be in a charismatic space. I may be, I may be. There's just no telling. Wherever there's an event where Christians.

[Michael Miller]

Yeah, you've got. You've been able to. To cross the. The lines, right?

[Lecrae]

So I. And I will talk to people about somewhere I've just been. So, like, I remember going to Kansas City, I believe it was. They were like, oh, have you been to ihop? And then I go back and I tell my friends, some. I met some people from a place called ihop and they're like, stay away from ihop, you know, And I'm like, I Don't understand any of these particular things. But as I start digging, I see, like, some stuff that raises the hair on my back a little bit, and I'm curious, like, when people start prophesying. I've had women. A famous prophet said, lecrae, I need to talk to you immediately. And I'm like, okay, what's going on? What's the prophecy? And I'm like, how do I know this woman is legit? How do I know she's not legit? How are you able to tell the difference between a false prophet and a real prophet? You've been in spaces where some people work.

[Michael Miller]

Yeah, when I'm calling out false prophets right now by name, because I'm. The thing is, I actually believe in prophecy.

[Lecrae]

Okay.

[Michael Miller]

I've received great benefit from prophecy, like my life has. God has comforted me when I've had need of comfort through prophecy. I value those gifts. And so it disturbs me greatly when I see people using those gifts or pretending to use those gifts in a way that harms. And so I'm like, I'm done. I'm not tolerating that. I'm going to call it what it is. You look at the real prophets of the Old Testament. They were always the whistleblowers. They're the ones calling out injustice. They didn't turn a blind eye, and they paid dearly for it. All of the true prophets, they were never near to the king. They were pushed to the outskirts because they refused to be yes men. Mm. So, okay, how do you know what a false prophet from a true prophet? There's a number of scriptures. You've got Deuteronomy 13, Deuteronomy 18, Jeremiah 23, Jeremiah 28. All of those speak to these issues. You're asking a big question, man. Okay, let's. Let's unpack that. Deuteronomy 13. The false prophets, he says, they'll come to you. They'll predict something, and it comes to pass. They'll have a dream, and it comes to pass. They'll perform signs and wonders, and then they'll say, let's go worship other gods. You must purge the evil from among you. This is a false prophet. The Lord is testing you to find out if you'll be faithful to the Lord your God. That's an interesting thing, because what you find is that the false prophets have real power. So just because something is powerful does not make it God. And the big question is, where are they leading you? Not how much power do they display. Are they leading you away? From Christ or to him. Now, many false prophets today, they're not necessarily lead you away from Christ. You know, they're going to lead you to themselves. You'll soon think that to question that prophet is no different than questioning God. And then this way they kind of subvert. But then Deuteronomy 18, that's a tricky passage because it could be eschatological in nature. He says, a prophet like me. And then the next prophet that rises up is Joshua. And it says, but no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses. So I'm not quite sure if that's just talking about any prophet. Sure, Moses was unique. With him, God spoke face to face with other prophets, dreams, visions, riddles, things that are shrouded in mystery where they don't fully understand all that God is showing them. So then Jeremiah 23, this is the best example we have of false prophets. They commit sin and they lead others into sin. Okay? Ahab and Zedekiah, they were sleeping with people that were not their wives. They were leading people astray away from God, not to him. So then he says, they commit sins and lead others into sin. They steal words from one another and claim them as their own. They give encouragement to people who are doing wickedness with the result that they don't repent from the wickedness that they're doing. I'm telling you that we're living in that day. All you got to do is pull up the next YouTube prophet and what are they doing? 20, 20 stadiums are going to be filled, right? There are going to be great transference of wealth. The wealth of the world is going to be given into the hands of the Christians. And year after year it never comes to pass. And there's no repentance. And here's the other part of it. In my mind, what they're doing is giving encouragement to a wicked people with the result that they don't stop the wickedness that they're doing. Do you suppose that we as a country are a righteous people?

[Lecrae]

I do not.

[Michael Miller]

I definitely don't. I mean, I'm looking at us and I'm going, I'm sorry, but every great kingdom and empire, they called it Babylon in scripture, the Roman Empire. It was great off of oppressing people and taking advantage of them, right? All of the great empires are Babylon. And I don't think we're any different. And the reason why I don't think that is because of what John says. We are of God, but the whole world lies in the power of the evil one. I just don't buy it. So all that to say, let me get back to my point here. Oh, the false prophets. They give encouragement to people who are doing wickedness with the result we don't stop our wickedness. The fact is, a true prophet is always going to call you back to faithfulness, to the covenant.

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[Lecrae]

now oftentimes we hear prophets generally on especially online. It's usually Something positive. Right. It's either end times, like some big end times prophet, you know, or something positive is going to happen to you.

[Michael Miller]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

Like is there any warning signs for the average person, like, ah, be leery if this person says this or says that?

[Michael Miller]

Yeah. I mean, anybody who prophesies grandeur to you, you're going to be not just speaking to a local church, but you're going to the nations. I'm like, dude, that's fluff. I don't buy it. Okay, now does God raise people up in this way? Yeah, I think he's done that with you. You've been able to cross lines and you've done that through art. That's pretty amazing. There are things God does give influence, but when that's the kind of prophetic ministry, everybody's got some grand word. That prophet is just trying to look like a prophet. He's no prophet at all. So there is a place for encouragement. First Corinthians 14:3 says, the one who prophesies speaks to men for their edification, encouragement and comfort or consolation. Edify means to build faith. Encouragement means to give you courage when you're facing great difficulty. Like you need courage to overcome. So somebody who operates in a gift of prophecy, when you're facing a difficult time and you're faithful to Christ, Christ is going to give you the courage you need to overcome that obstacle and then comfort. Well, that makes sense. What's one of the names of the Holy Spirit?

[Lecrae]

The comforter.

[Michael Miller]

Right. So when he manifests, when he makes himself known, he's going to offer comfort. But I think that is true for those who are faithful to the covenant. This gift is meant to encourage the church. It's meant to call us into continual faithfulness and to trust Christ in the midst of great obstacle, to comfort us when we're suffering, especially when we're suffering for doing the right thing. But when I hear the encouraging words all the time to people who are not repentant and not faithful to the covenant, I go, that person is not a prophet. That person's selling something.

[Lecrae]

Do you think there's any self correcting the charismatic church can do? Like you think it's capable of self correcting?

[Michael Miller]

Well, I mean, that's what I'm, I'm a charismatic in a sense. Right. Like, I really do believe in this stuff. I value this stuff. I practice this stuff, I teach on this stuff. I wholeheartedly believe we have a need for reform. I think we have a need for reform in the entirety of the church. But I Don't know. I mean, I don't know, man. There's days where I feel a lack of hope for the Charismatic Church, and then there are days where I feel a lot of hope. I've just watched. Well, you mentioned ihop, Mike Bickle. Mike got exposed. That's one of the greatest things that could happen in the church is finally we're realizing, like, here's a man who's a predator. And we now understand how predication works. The church is waking up. But there is so much more. I mean, look, dude, I haven't shared. I've named people on my podcast, but I haven't shared the half of it. You wouldn't believe how many testimonies hit my desk of spiritual abuse, gaslighting, manipulating, coming from the pulpit. But the fact is, it's not just the charismatic world. You can just as easily misuse the gift of teaching.

[Lecrae]

That's good.

[Michael Miller]

And the fact is, there's some of these people that are so abusive, still unrepentant, and here they are with a new platform. They're back out there doing the same thing they've been doing. And so, I mean, I hope there is reform. I genuinely am working towards it, but I still feel like that person who sees all those starfish on the beach and he's like, well, man, you're never going to throw them back in the ocean. I'm like, yeah, but I got this one right, you know, that is that. I don't know if it's starfish or something, but I'm like, it's the right thing to do. Am I ever going to stop the oppression in our country? I don't think so, but it's still the right thing to do. And I imagine, I feel a little bit today like Jeremiah did. It's like, go and speak to these people, but they're not going to listen.

[Lecrae]

Where. Where do we find, like, where is the. Are you. Are you a small. Are you part of a small tribe? Like, I guess what I'm thinking of is the PR for the Charismatic movement in. Across the world are a lot of times representatives who are charlatans or, you know, just like false healings or.

[Michael Miller]

Yeah, the Benny Hins.

[Lecrae]

Right? All these.

[Michael Miller]

Am I. Am I okay to just say it?

[Lecrae]

Yeah, you go for it.

[Michael Miller]

But.

[Lecrae]

But globally. This isn't just in America, it's globally. That's the pr. That's the perspective that people have. Even within. Like, they're not wrong. Right? Okay, so they're not wrong. There's been a lot of Spiritual abuse.

[Michael Miller]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

What do people do then if they're like, hey, I. I know the gifts are real. I know God still heals. I know he delivers. I. I don't see this being demonstrated in a biblical way.

[Michael Miller]

Yeah, Greatest argument against the gifts of the spirit are bad charismatics. But what does that have to do with what the text says? Are you a person of the book or not? At the end of the day, I'm like, you're right. So if it's not being done the right way, let's do it the right way. What do the scriptures have to tell us? Okay, we know that we're supposed to judge prophecy. First Corinthians 14:26. Let two or three prophets speak and let the others pass judgment. Okay, we don't do that with the scriptures. Paul had a different standard for the scriptures. He says, let him who thinks he's a prophet recognize that what I'm writing are the very words of God. So this is to the same church, same chapter of Corinthians. He says, to the prophets, let two or three prophets speak, let others pass judgment, and then to the prophets. But when it comes to my writings, scripture. So two different standards here. So that's what we've tried to do with the. My podcast is we do an annual prophecy review, and it's almost become satire at this point, because it's just like, it's never good. All of the YouTube prophets, it's all about gaining a platform. But one of the things that's kind of a catchphrase in our church is let's make prophecy local again. That's honestly where I think it's supposed to be. It's supposed to serve the local community.

[Lecrae]

That's good.

[Michael Miller]

I'll tell you about a. I'll tell you a story of prophecy in a local church. That would be helpful. I was preaching in this church, and I was praying. I'd say, God, would you give me words for people that would allow them to know beyond the shadow of the doubt that you really are here, that you really are good, and that you really are doing these things today. And so sermon is towards the end, but I'm still kind of in the middle of it, and I hear this name, Sally. She doesn't know how to pray anymore. I want to help her with that. Wasn't a big, booming voice from heaven, just a thought that kind of passed through my head, something I could have easily dismissed. I'm thinking, sally. Nobody's called Sally anymore. Like, lord, is this you or is this me? I'M like, I'm going to look like an idiot. I said, 300 people in the room. I said, okay, here goes nothing. I said, is there a Sally in the room? Sally, where are you? This lady comes running down to the front. I said, sally, you don't know how to pray anymore. God wants to help you with that. Just shared what I heard. This lady running down to the front. She's crying. She said, you don't understand. My name's not Sally. And I'm going, I don't understand. What are you doing? Like, why are you up here? And she says, I don't go to this church. Nobody would know this about me. But whenever I go to a coffee shop, like Starbucks, and they ask me what my name is, I always. Just to make my girlfriends laugh, I always tell them my name is Sally. And she said, my friends don't go to this church, so there's no way you can know this about me. She said, I was literally. My friends even gave me a coffee mug for Christmas with the name Sally on it just to be funny. She goes, I was on my way to church and I was praying because I knew you were going to be speaking. And I was asking God, would you please have him call me out by name, but don't call me by my real name. Call me Sally. And she says, God, I don't know how to pray anymore. Those were exact words. Now I look at make prophecy local, because I think that's what's supposed to happen. I see somebody who's distressed. She's doubting her faith. She just needs God to show up. She prays, she cries out to God, and God says, I've heard your prayer, and I'm going to answer that prayer. But he does it in such an amazing way where it's not just this woman who is encouraged, but everybody in that room was like, oh, my gosh, that just happened. Like, they were living witnesses of it. And so you. You see that local prophecy, it encourages the whole body, especially when, like, it's that kind of specificity.

[Lecrae]

Yeah. So now that's. This is really powerful. I'll just give a quick testimony before I let you go. But I'm. I'm a raging skeptic of all things charismatic. Yeah, raging. You know?

[Michael Miller]

Do you believe me when I tell you this? Yeah.

[Lecrae]

Oh, yes. Well, listen, hear me out. Hear me out. So when I. I broke up with a young lady because I found out that she was. I was about to be engaged to this woman, and I was reading John MacArthur's charismatic chaos. And I was like, oh, we gotta break up, because you are theological. We're not aligned.

[Michael Miller]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

So I was hard nose. And then as I've grown, I think I was like, oh, yeah, I'm charismatic with a seatbelt on. You know? Okay, yeah. But I didn't function. Like, I believed it. Like, it was like, mental.

[Michael Miller]

Well, I mean, think about what that statement is. I'm a charismatic with the seatbelt on. That means, like, theologically, I'm there, but I don't want to actually be like that.

[Lecrae]

Right, right. There's a response to what I'm seeing.

[Michael Miller]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lecrae]

And, you know, I can't speak to. I mean, obviously, like, some of the. The mental anguish that I was battling. I don't associate it with demonic possession. It could be. I don't. I don't know. But there was no deliverance that was had. But what did happen was me saying, let me start digging into this. So then I start researching. I go down the rabbit hole, and I mean, I'm every day for hours, just digging, just reading books. John Deere. I mean, Jack Deere, John Wimber. I'm just going down a rabbit hole and I'm listening. Even some of the things that you're saying. And I can't remember. It was another story that you told, but it was a woman who. I think you had a flash or something about her, but it wasn't clear. But it ended up being confirmed that that was the person that you're supposed to speak to. And. And I was like, I don't. How does this thing work? Right? So then I'm. I'm just praying. I'm like, all right, God, if this is. Just give me something, because I don't know how this junk works. You know, I'm. I'm fasting. I'm just like. I just want to know. And I. And I get this name in my head. It's the weirdest name. Doesn't make sense to me, right? And it's like, ariana. Ariana. And I was like, okay. So I'm like, all right, Lord, I'm gonna just act on it, because I'm listening to y'. All. I'm like, I'm Just act on this. You said it. I don't know if it means something. So I got tours. I'm on tour. And I'm like, during my meet and greets, I'm like, hey, I'm on stage. Any. Anybody named Ariana out here tonight? I'm. I don't know. I don't even Know what I would say to this person? I just love this. I'm just like. I don't even know what I would say if I branded this person. So I'm like, anybody? And it's nights after night after night. I'm on the street in San Francisco, and I'm just, like, walking around like, maybe that's her. And I'm like, ariana, Ariana.

[Michael Miller]

Ariana.

[Lecrae]

And nothing's happening. So, you know, I. I grabbed Craig Keener's book on miracles. I'm tearing through that. I'm just like, I don't know.

[Michael Miller]

That's a good one.

[Lecrae]

Is this even real? God, like, give me something. Give me anything. I'm getting nothing. I pray for, like an hour and a half for Francis Chan in his backyard. And I was like, oh, Lord, show me something. He's like, man, you gotta call Sam Storms. Here, take Sam's number. I talked to Sam. I'm like, I'm listening to his episodes. I'm just like, give me something. Get back to Atlanta. And I'm in a text thread with a group of guys who are in a prayer group. One of the guys daughter can't walk. She's like. He's struggling with whether or not his daughter's going to be able to walk. She's young, hasn't walked. I don't know his daughter's name, but I'm praying for this Ariana person every day. I'm like, I don't know who you are. I'm just praying for you. I don't know what you do. He says, hey, y', all, can I pray for my daughter? She's not walking. And I was like, for sure, man. You know what I'm saying? We'll pray. He's like, yeah, just pray for Ariana. She's not walking. And I was like, the heck you say her name was? And I was like. I said. I. In my heart, I was like, I shouldn't say this, but I'm gonna say it. She's gonna walk. And now I was nervous from all the. Like, if I'm wrong, Lord, like, God forbid, I've given this man false hope. It was the scariest thing ever. The girl walked. You know?

[Michael Miller]

When did this happen?

[Lecrae]

This is. I don't even know. How long ago was this?

[Michael Miller]

Maybe our first conversation was, what, back in October?

[Lecrae]

Yeah.

[Michael Miller]

So, I mean, you're.

[Lecrae]

This is like, December, maybe December.

[Michael Miller]

Okay.

[Lecrae]

Yeah. And so I'm like, all right.

[Michael Miller]

Do you understand? Like, God doesn't do that for everybody. He doesn't have to he doesn't owe you anything. He doesn't owe me anything. It's in the text. And yet we struggle to believe it. And I just think, like, that was an incredible kind thing for him to do to you and for that family,

[Lecrae]

man, it blew me away.

[Michael Miller]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

So I say that to say, man, continue. You know, for those who believe and those who are on the fence and those who don't believe, continue. You know, being faithful to the scriptures and, you know, folks argue with us about if Jesus is real, but, hey, we gotta.

[Michael Miller]

You know, I'd say somebody once asked the Lord or asked somebody, can anything good from Nazareth come? He says, come and see. I mean, if you want to know if this stuff is real, come and see. That's how you find out. I get the skepticism. I totally get it. I mean, it confronts everything about the way we think the world should operate. Mm. So, yeah, I love that story, and I'm thankful.

[Lecrae]

Okay, so there are some who say there. There are specific prayers for specific demons, that demons operate under legalities and legislation, and that if you don't approach it the right way, you don't actually break those ties and those minds. I'm not sure if you've. You've heard of this concept, but I don't. What are your thoughts on that?

[Michael Miller]

So in Catholicism, exorcism is a ritual. It's a rite. So they have a ritual prayers that they pray to get rid of things that would be more of that kind of legal way of doing things. So, yes and no. There are times when God's power is present and palpable, and it's such a degree that people will sovereignly get delivered. Just all of a sudden, they just are free. I mean, many people, when they've come to Christ, they experience that very thing. There was no prayer for deliverance. But the next thing you know, their drug addiction is broken, their alcoholism is broken, their sex addiction is broken. And you see that happen. There's times when God's power is so palpable, it's like demon free zone. Vast majority of time is demons are driven out. It's a fight. And that driving force is the Lord through us, you know, come out of him and never enter him again. I do find that there are times when you have to be more specific. Like in the case of the Gadarene demoniac, we have a very powerful Roman cohort full of demons. The Lord says, tell me your name. For he had been saying, come out of him.

[Lecrae]

Whoa, whoa.

[Michael Miller]

He had been saying, come out of him. But it wasn't being dislodged. So then the name became important. Now, I don't think that's the vast majority of evil spirits. There are times where the name matters. In the ancient world, knowing the name of something was believed to give you authority over it. It's also why in Revelation, Jesus has a name on his thigh, which no man knows. Why? Because nobody's going to exercise authority over Jesus. He is preeminent. He is overall. So sometimes knowing the name of something helps you get rid of it. The other thing I would say about naming and that kind of legal right kind of thing is that in most of scripture and ancient world, an expression of authority is to name something. So Adam and Eve are given dominion, authority over the animals. What's the first thing they do? They name the animals. So to name something is to rightly identify what it is. It's the reason why. Like, you have kids. Okay. Did you name your kids? Yes, why not the state?

[Lecrae]

They're mine, right?

[Michael Miller]

You have authority, they don't. That's how that works. In fact, when you see Abram when he's worshiping the moon God in the land of the ancient Akkadians, God comes to him and says, I am going to be your God. I'm going to show you a land you don't know, and I'm going to build a nation out of you. And I will be the God over that nation and that people, and you will be my people. And so he renames Abram Abraham. Jesus renamed Simon after Simon became his disciple. After Simon recognized the lordship of Christ, he renames him Peter. And so when it comes to evil spirits, one of the ways in which I drive them out is to rightly identify what they are by name. Call it out. The other part is I have to remove their rights to be there. Now, I may be able to drive it out, but if I don't find out how it got in, then you may continue in the behavior that allowed it to get in to begin with.

[Lecrae]

What does that look like? Is that.

[Michael Miller]

Well, let's take a person who's. Okay, I'm in. This is a longer story. I'll try to make it fast. I'm in Denmark praying for a lady, and she has eyesight issues. And so I had heard from her pastor that she was taking classes on clairvoyancy. And so I'm just asking her questions, like, tell me about some of your spiritual experiences. She gets real excited. She's like, oh, ever since I was a kid, I could see dead People. And I'm like, okay, all right, well, tell me more about that. She's like, she's been helping people contact their dead relatives to get reconciliation. Now, the Bible has a word for that. It's called necromancy. And when Moses forbids that practice, he doesn't say that it's fictitious. He says, don't do it. It's detestable. It's defiling. Have nothing to do with the practices of the Canaanites. And so I look at her, I said, well, I think what's happening here is. I think you have an evil spirit that's afflicting your eyesight and also causes pain in the back of your head. At this point, the Lord had given me some information about her. And she goes, oh, wait, what? I said, yeah, I think there's an evil spirit that's afflicting you. I think the reason that evil spirit is there is because what you're doing is actually sin, and it's forbidden in the Bible. And she's like, what? Where is this forbidden in the Bible? I'm like, oh, right here. Deuteronomy 18, Leviticus 19, Leviticus 20. And she's like, well, why would God forbid this? It's helping so many people. I said, I don't know why he forbids it. I just know that he does. And I said, and because of it, I think there's a spirit that's afflicting you. And she goes, well, how do I know it's an evil spirit? I said, would you like to know? She goes, yes. I said, in the name of the Lord Jesus, I command you, come up now. And when I said those words, she started screaming at the top of her lungs. I said, stop it. And she, in tears, tells me she could feel this thing clawing at her stomach and screaming at her head. And I said, look, I can. I can get rid of that thing, but you have to stop what you're doing. You have to repent. And she goes, do I have to? I said, yes. Here's the thing. If you don't repent, then. And I cast that thing out, it's going to come right back, probably bring some of its friends with it. I said, you've got to stop what you're doing. And she says, will you come back tomorrow? And I'm like, yeah, I'll be back tomorrow. She goes, are you going to come back next year? At this point, I've been traveling to Denmark about twice a year. I said, yeah, I'll probably be back next year. She goes, I think I need to wait for now.

[Lecrae]

Wow.

[Michael Miller]

Now she was. This is how she was making her living.

[Lecrae]

Wow.

[Michael Miller]

So we talk about removing rights, legal rights. I'm like, there is something like that. It's important that we identify how it got in. Either the sin you committed, the sin committed against you, but specifically the sin if you committed a sin that allowed that thing in, you definitely need to figure that out, because I don't want you accidentally doing the same thing, thinking it's okay when it's not, and inviting that thing back in. So typically, I lead people through a repentance process that usually involves forgiveness, especially if it's something that was done to you. Renunciation of various sinful practices, and then a command of that evil spirit, saying, I want nothing to do with you. Leave me. And then I command the spirit to come out of them. Sheesh. I think that process matters. Now, the. There are other charismatic practices out there that I think are just wrong. Yeah, Maybe not the most helpful. And I. I have some concerns with some of the practices out there, because I think they can actually be quite abusive.

[Lecrae]

Now, for the person who's just sitting at home and they don't have a person that they know who practices deliverance. They just have friends who love Jesus. Is it possible for them to just say, hey, can y' all pray for my deliverance? And that it be effective without them knowing any of what you've said?

[Michael Miller]

Look, God is good, and I am not. I'm not the guru. I'm not someone special. I don't have, like, the caffeinated Holy Spirit and everybody else got the decaf. I think I would absolutely try that. I mean, we're told, walk in the light as he is in the light and the blood of the Lord. Jesus is faithful to cleanses from all unrighteousness, and we have fellowship with one another. Walking in the light doesn't mean walking free from sin, means walking with our sin exposed and the effect of confession. I would say a lot of demonic hold on people is broken when you bring it into the light. But then not only that, it allows you to experience true fellowship, which is knowing and being known and loved in spite of all those things about me.

[Lecrae]

That's good.

[Michael Miller]

So I've endeavored. I don't want to face Jesus at the end of my life and be like, yeah, now I need to tell you about all these things. It's like, I'd much rather just bring it into the light now and face him. There's nothing left.

[Lecrae]

Yep, you got nothing that's my motto, man. Thankful for you. If somebody wants to get more insight, more information. I mean, when's, where, what you got, man? When's the book coming?

[Michael Miller]

Yeah, right. If I was a, I mean, I'm, you know, the problem is Jack Deere is such a good writer.

[Lecrae]

Yeah.

[Michael Miller]

I mean, not just like helpful content, but beautifully written. I, I, I'm always thinking of him in back of my head, and I can't write like that.

[Lecrae]

Hey, man, you just, just speak into some device and let it, you know, give it to an editor and let

[Michael Miller]

him, yeah, you know, I'll, I'll talk to our buddy Adam. He knows how to do that. Yeah. Now you've done it too, I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, most of my stuff is on Remnant Radio. I don't put my sermons online. I try to keep some degree of separation from my church and the online world. I just want be a local pastor. I need that for my family.

[Lecrae]

That's good.

[Michael Miller]

But I have a website called thomasministries.org I tend to put my schedule up there of when I'm going somewhere to speak. I do a lot of conferences, try to be home by Saturday night so I can preach at my church Sunday morning. But most time I'm in Denver. I'm trying to think. What else? I've got a journal that I created called Overcomer's Journal. Okay. It's meant for, like, not everything is a demon. And for me, when it came to rejection, abandonment, anxiety, that's. That journal is geared to help people overcome those things.

[Lecrae]

That's great.

[Michael Miller]

So, yeah, those would be the avenues to kind of follow what I'm doing. Remnant radio, the thomasministries.org and the overcomers Journal.

[Lecrae]

My man, I appreciate you being here, brother. Thank you. The. There was another Mike Miller in Denver once upon a time, but he was a basketball player, so you may.

[Michael Miller]

But, yeah, much cooler than me.

[Lecrae]

Yeah, but we, but we appreciate this one.

[Michael Miller]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

Thank you, bro. Appreciate you.

[Michael Miller]

Yeah, of course.

[Lecrae]

Yeah, it's great, man. This is the deep end with Lecrae.