Transcript

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Lecrae (0:32)

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Michael Miller (1:03)

I was in South Africa, and this man keeps asking me to pray for his wife. I'm a young 20 something at the time, I'm not even married, and I'm going, bro, I can't fix your marriage. And so I'm asking her, what do you need prayer for? She goes, oh, I don't know. And I'm like, I'm looking at the husband and then she just turns to me and she says, I don't like. This is something else. Her voice, her mouth, but something else speaking, and she's gone. This is. I play games. I said, what games do you play? I cause murder. I cause divorce. I was terrified. And I remember just feeling like. Like my life was really in jeopardy. And I looked at her and the demon, I guess, and I said, well, you're done doing that. And I said, how did you get in? Said, I was sent here. And I said, who sent you? Said rita. I'm looking at the husband. I'm going, who's Rita? And he goes, that's my sister. What?

Lecrae (2:05)

Man, this is the deep end with Lecrae. I am extremely excited for today's episode for a multitude of different reasons. So one is because if you know my kind of journey, it's been one where I have wrestled with the spiritual realm and had so many questions, but at the same time dealt with some torment and dealt with some spiritual oppression. And I had more questions than answers. And I was looking for some, some thoughtful people who held the Bible in high regard, but also could speak to the supernatural and spiritual realm. And I came across this gentleman's work online and also through a mutual friend. My buddy Adam Thomason was connected to him. And so I've since like, just been peering in and, and learning a lot and having still more questions. But I'm honored to be able to be here with today's guest. So today's guest is none other than Michael Miller. A lot of you may know who Michael Miller is. He co hosts the Remnant Radio alongside Joshua Lewis and Michael Roundtree. He was discipled under Jack Deere, if you've read Surprised by the Power of the Holy Spirit. He also ran the healing ministry at Wellspring Church and he traveled with dear to minister in churches internationally. He planted a church called Reclamation Church in Denver, which trains churches nationwide in the gifts of the Spirit. And I say that with the caveat on asterisk. As soon as people hear Gifts of the Spirit, they, they go. Their brain goes all over the place. So we're going to dive into, you know, he has gone public in some controversial conversations about, you know, the New Apostolic, New Apostolic Reformation Church. And, you know, it's been good. You know, some of the stuff that's been out there, he's, he said, has been, has been helpful. And what I like about his lane, as I continue in this is that it's, it's, it's theology that's grounded in scripture, but has an awareness of the spiritual realm, practical deliverance, ministry experience, and a willingness to just kind of hold the Pentecostal or Charismatic world accountable. And so he lives at that radical middle of word and Spirit. And that's what I love about Michael Miller and today's conversation. So if that makes sense to you, if you're interested in that, you may hear some wild stories, you may hear some stuff that just sounds familiar, but we thank y' all for tuning in. Thank you. Michael Miller.

Summary

The Deep End With Lecrae

Episode: Bible Scholar Challenges Lecrae on Generational Curses, Demons, & Deliverance
Guest: Michael Miller
Date: April 9, 2026

Episode Overview

In this richly layered episode, Lecrae hosts Bible scholar and pastor Michael Miller for an honest, vulnerable, and theologically rigorous conversation on often-taboo subjects in the church: generational curses, demons, deliverance, and the supernatural. Miller, cohost of Remnant Radio and pastor of Reclamation Church, brings both scriptural precision and practical deliverance experience. Together, they explore where scripture, lived experience, and church culture intersect and diverge, offering a compassionate but critically-minded look at Christian spirituality’s most controversial corners.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Journeys Into Christian Faith and the Supernatural

[05:52-09:58, 10:04-13:04]

Michael Miller’s background: Raised by a Jewish mother and Mormon father in a broken home; first engaged the Bible as “a book of ancient spells,” came to faith in high school, and was initially disappointed by cessationist churches (“all the fun stuff happened back then, but that’s not happening now”).
Influential mentorship with Jack Deere, and a journey that merged “vanilla” evangelical roots with a slow, biblically anchored entry into the “gifts of the Spirit.”
Lecrae’s path: Not raised in church; discipled by a football player steeped in conservative Bible church culture that cast suspicion on the supernatural—contrasting with wild experiences and deep skepticism about manipulative “Pentecostal packaging.”
Both describe wrestling with mental health (anxiety, trauma) and the suspicion that not all suffering is merely psychological.

2. Scriptural Integrity and the Gifts of the Spirit

[14:00-16:31]

Miller insists on rigorous scriptural grounding for any supernatural claim or practice:

“The strongest scriptural arguments led me towards the gifts being continued today. There is no explicit verse that says that they discontinue.” (Michael Miller, 15:22)
Critiques charismatic catchphrases (“I feel there’s a spirit of this…”) as unhelpful and ungrounded.
Emphasis: Experience must align with clear biblical teaching, or risk “being duped.”

3. Testimonies: Healing and the Reality of Miracles

[19:09-26:06]

Both reflect on John Wimber’s story of three years of unanswered prayers for healing—a corrective to “instant results” celebrity faith.
Miller recounts his own “my feet are straight” story—healing a girl’s physical condition despite lacking faith himself:

"I didn’t even think anything would happen. That’s the truth." (Michael Miller, 24:47)
Miracles ignite hunger for ultimate future healing (“the hors d'oeuvres before the banquet”).

4. Educated Skepticism & The Two Audiences

[26:06-28:37]

Lecrae notes that those most open to supernatural stories are often less-formally trained; educated communities (especially Western) lean skeptical.
Miller differentiates healthy skepticism (“I want the real thing”) from hardened unbelief:

“Skepticism says, hey, look, I don’t want to be duped. I want the real thing. That’s a person that wants truth… But the person who’s unbelieving…God will allow you to make your own choice.” (Michael Miller, 27:18)

5. First Encounters with Demons and Deliverance

[29:08-37:55]

Miller’s first clear deliverance experience: In South Africa, confronting a demon-possessed (or “demonized”) Christian woman, released after an ancestor’s curse.
Insights into authority over demons:

“What gives people the rights to do these things is being a Christian…We are seated in heavenly places in Christ… we have authority over these things.” (Michael Miller, 35:56)
Importance of community: Deliverance is rarely a solo endeavor—Scripture prescribes confession and mutual support.

6. Christians and Demonic Oppression: Biblical & Historical Arguments

[37:59-47:11]

The term “demon possession” is misleading; Greek “daimonizomai” = “demonized,” describing a spectrum.
Miller: There is no explicit Bible verse confirming or denying that Christians can have demons; but inference, early church teaching, and passages like Ephesians 4 (“don’t give the devil a foothold”) support the possibility.
Cites early church father Tertullian and others:

“Yes, Christians can have demons. ... If you're going to go back to your sin, then guess what? You're going to welcome back your old demons.” (Michael Miller, 45:51)

7. Generational Curses, Sin, and Deliverance Ministry

[50:05-57:56]

Story of a curse from Scottish ancestry (Gavin Dunbar) only broken through specific prayer and renunciation.
Curses are empowered by sin, but not always the person’s own — “Demons traffic in sin...they don’t care if it’s your sin, someone else’s against you, or your ancestors.” (Michael Miller, 54:59)
Delivers pastoral comfort: God sanctifies and delivers gradually; “I have been delivered. I am being delivered. And one day I will be fully delivered.”

8. Fear, Authority, and the Place of Demons in the Life of Believers

[59:56-66:28]

Lecrae: Why aren’t you afraid of demons?
Miller: “Because I belong to Jesus. He’s preeminent.”
There is reverence (not arrogance), but Jesus’ authority is supreme.
Demons are powerful but “like little critters” compared to Christ’s sovereignty.
On the “origin” of demons, Miller tentatively favors Michael Heiser’s Nephilim/unseen realm theory but doesn’t get dogmatic, concluding: “Demons, bad. Let’s get rid of them.” (Michael Miller, 65:59)

9. Prophecy, False Prophets, and Charismatic Abuse

[69:09-83:12]

How do you discern a true prophet? OT warnings (Deut. 13/18, Jer. 23/28): Not about displays of power but the direction they lead—toward Christ or self/glory/sin.
Miller:

“Just because something is powerful does not make it God. Where are they leading you?” (Michael Miller, 70:13)
Critiques the culture of “grand words” and unchallenged prophecy on platforms like YouTube.
Calls for “making prophecy local again” (83:12) — situated in humble, encouraging, transparent church community.

10. Practical Deliverance: Legal Rights, Naming, and Repentance

[92:01-100:46]

Sometimes deliverance requires identifying specific strongholds (“naming” as sign of authority).
Removing demons requires confronting both their means of entry (sin, trauma, ancestral link) and their right to remain.
If someone is unwilling to repent, deliverance may not be lasting.

11. Can Everyday Christians Cast Out Demons or Experience Deliverance?

[100:00-100:46]

Miller:

“God is good. I’m not the guru...If you’re walking in the light, much demonic hold is broken just by confession and walking in the light.”
Community, vulnerability, regular repentance, and practical honesty are key spiritual weapons.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Skepticism:
“I don’t think skepticism is counter to faith. ... Skepticism says, I want the real thing. That’s a person that wants truth, to that Jesus likes that.” (Michael Miller, 27:18)
On Authority Over Demons:
“I don’t think deliverance ministry ... is because I have some sort of special gift of the Spirit. I don’t think it’s gift related. I think it’s position related. Are you in Christ?” (Michael Miller, 35:56)
On Experiences Not Matching Scripture:
“There is a major gap between my experience and what I read [in the Bible]—but at the same time, I don’t trust the voices that are out there to tell me the truth.” (Michael Miller, 15:04)
On Demonic Oppression and Sin:
“Demons traffic in sin. They don’t care if it’s your sin. They don’t care if it’s someone else’s sin against you. ... they’re wicked and they traffic in sin.” (Michael Miller, 54:59)
On Spiritual Hunger and Miracles:
“I liken it to going to a fancy dinner where you get like the hors d’oeuvres—it lets you know the banquet is coming. ... it ignites the hunger.” (Michael Miller, 25:40)
On Deliverance and Gradual Wholeness:
“He sanctifies us, right? I have been delivered. I am being delivered. And one day I will be fully delivered.” (Michael Miller, 57:56)
On False Prophecy:
“A true prophet is always going to call you back to faithfulness to the covenant.” (Michael Miller, 74:55)
Lecrae’s Skepticism Softening:
“I’m a raging skeptic of all things charismatic....But what did happen was me saying, let me start digging into this... I get this name in my head ...ariana. ... the girl walked.” (Lecrae, 88:21–90:49)

Timestamps for Key Segments

Miller’s story/testimony: [05:52–09:58]
Lecrae’s spiritual background: [10:04-13:04]
Scriptural foundation for miracles/gifts: [14:00–16:31]
Healing testimony – “My feet are straight”: [20:36–26:06]
Healthy skepticism vs. unbelief: [26:06–28:37]
South Africa deliverance story, authority: [29:08–37:55]
Christians and demonic oppression: [37:59–47:11]
Generational curse (Scottish) deliverance: [50:05–57:56]
On not fearing demons: [59:56–66:28]
On prophecy/false prophets: [69:09–83:12]
Making prophecy local: [83:12–85:59]
Lecrae’s “ariana” miracle story: [88:21–90:49]
Practical deliverance (legal rights, naming): [92:01–100:46]
Everyday deliverance & community: [100:00–100:58]
Where to find Miller’s resources: [101:08–102:36]

Overall Tone & Takeaways

Honest, vulnerable, and intellectually rigorous, both Lecrae and Miller are transparent about their doubts and experiences with abuse, skepticism, and the messiness of spiritual life.
Miller is insistent that experience must be subject to scripture, but also that a fear-based, “safe” Christianity is ultimately just as unbiblical as credulous, manipulative charismatic excesses.
Both urge listeners to “come and see”—to pursue authenticity, persistent prayer, honest confession, and connection with Christ and the faithful community above any spiritual shortcut or showmanship.
Practical wisdom: If you need deliverance, you don’t need a guru—you need a community, the authority of Christ, and the willingness to bring things into the light.

For further resources:

Michael Miller: [Remnant Radio], [thomasministries.org], “Overcomer’s Journal”
Lecrae: The Deep End Podcast archives