Dr. Joel Mutamali (1:43)

I would say. Who told you the caffeine plant is not an entry point? Who told you that?

Lecrae (1:48)

All right.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (1:48)

Right. Anything that is a neutral thing that becomes an ultimate thing will always become an idolatrous thing. Anything. Also, man, maybe I shouldn't, I don't know if I should say it. It's like this is the deep end with Lecrae.

Lecrae (2:07)

Yo. Ladies and gentlemen, if you were with for part one of my conversation with Dr. Joel Mutamali, you are in for a treat because this is where we're going to get even deeper into the deep end. Last episode, we talked a lot about Genesis and the Flood and the Nephilim and just, you know, the. The Tower of Babel and a lot of questions.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (2:31)

Yeah. Yes.

Lecrae (2:33)

And we had. We had kind of started getting into, you know, Deuteronomy 32. And I know the question that I have in mind, and I want you to, you know, use Deuteronomy 32:17 to, like, get us here. But just know what I want to know, and what the people want to know is, can demons read our minds?

Dr. Joel Mutamali (2:56)

Okay. Okay. I remember listening to your podcast episode with the founder of Wikipedia, which I thought was so incredible. And I actually really, really value that conversation. That dude was awesome. Brilliant. But, you know, said something that kind of, like, was like, wait a minute. And by the way, y', all, like, I'm not a reaction guy. Like, if you go onto my Instagram and stuff, like, rarely will you see, like, reaction videos on top of the. You know.

Lecrae (3:25)

Yeah.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (3:25)

Unless I feel like I've got an expertise in an area, either theologically or in terms of my study, or I feel like it is a pressing cultural moment that I just really care deeply about how we're thinking as a people. Right. So this one was like, yo, it hit, like, a couple checks right off the bat, you know, And I understood where he was coming from. Cause I had that exact same view. And I think the same with something like, we shouldn't call. We shouldn't refer to spiritual beings as gods. Right? Like, there's only one God, and they're. They're called demons. They're called demons in the Bible. We just call them demons in the Bible. And to that, I was kind of like, I think Moses and Deuteronomy 32:17 would like to have a word. Elohim. Yeah. And. And so I just want to. I want to read it to you because I actually think that this really matters. And this is going to get into how we understand demonic activity, what these demonic entities are doing. But then also the. The bridge or the connection point is the people in the Old Testament were very much consumed in a world that was dominated by actual spiritual beings that were leading them astray. And the language that. The biblical language that's used for them is the gods of the nations. Okay? And so Deuteronomy 32:17. This is what Moses says. He says they. He's talking about all these people that came before they sacrificed to demons. The Hebrew word is Shadim. So they sacrificed to demons, not God. The Hebrew word. There is Aloha. Now, the context lets us know this is talking about Yahweh. So they sacrificed to Shedim demons, not God Eloah, to God's Elohim. They had not known new gods Hadashima, that that had just arrived, which your fathers did not fear. So why this is so important is because here Moses actually frames Elohim as Shadim, as demons. It's not that we shouldn't call them demons, is that we should actually rightly understand that by nature these demons are Elohim. And that term Elohim is a technical term that's used for a disembodied spirit. We know the difference between the uncreated creator based off of consc. Context, but then also based off of the language that's used around that he's the Lord Most High. Or in Exodus, we get the intimate name of God. He is Yahweh. So I would make a statement. This is what Dr. Michael Heiser said, and I think it's the best. You don't need to recreate the wheel. He would say this way that Yahweh is Elohim, but no Elohim ever could be Yahweh. So Yahweh's species unique, right? And so why this is so important is because you turn to a passage like Psalm 122 or Psalm 121. It's the Psalm of Ascents. One of the Psalm of ascents. And it starts this way. It says, I look up to the mountains, I look up to the hills. Where does my help come from? Right? And often when we read that psalm, it's like one of those famous psalms, right? It's on coffee cup mugs and stuff. And we read and we're like, oh, yeah, like, it's talking about God. Our. Our help comes from God. That's actually not what the psalm is saying. That psalm is actually being a bit passive aggressive. The Hebrew poetry. Like, if I were to translate, I'd say it this way, for real. You're gonna look at the Psalms, you're gonna get help over there. Because if you're an ancient Israelite and you looked up to the hills, you would see a couple things around this time period. You would see on this one mountaintop, this one hill, a altar to the God Dagon. And so if you needed some help for the harvest, you'd go to Dagon. Is that where your help is gonna come from? Or you'd see, on another hill, you'd see an altar to Goddess Asherah. That's where we get Asherah polls. You're having fertility issues. Maybe you need to go to that. Is that where your help is going to come from? Right. Another one you'd go baal, the God to. It's like, oh, there's no thunder or rain. We need rain for our fields. Are you going to go there to get your help? Right. And so what the psalmist does in Psalm 121 is he's like, for real. Are you going to be conned by the false gods of the nations to follow after them? And they are demonic in nature, they're evil in nature, or. And the very next line, I lift my eyes to the mountains. Where does my help come from? The very next line says, my help comes from God, the maker of heaven and earth. In other words, don't get deceived by the counterfeit gods up there. Look even higher into the heavens and be reminded that all of these spiritual beings are still created beings.

Lecrae (8:02)

Yeah.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (8:03)

We don't want to be conned by them. We want to go after the God of heaven and earth.

Lecrae (8:07)

So these are little gods. Right. Can we refer to these little gods or smaller gods than Yahweh who are evil?

Dr. Joel Mutamali (8:20)

Yeah.

Lecrae (8:20)

Right. As demons.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (8:22)

Yeah. So again, this just goes to categorical terms. I think another really important thing is, like, you can just call them demons. I think that's fine. Right. But in terms of precision, if we want to be precise in our language.

Lecrae (8:32)

Yes.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (8:33)

This is where I would go.

Lecrae (8:34)

Yes.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (8:34)

You know, and so I just don't want people to be like, oh, my gosh, did I make a mistake? Or am I, you know, like. Like, I wouldn't overthink it, but I think it's, you know, it's like spiritual maturity and growth. It's like, if you can know better, know better. Might as well.

Lecrae (8:46)

This is the. In. In another realm. It's like the Christian rapper conversation. I don't like when people say Christian rapper, because, yes, I am a Christian and yes, I am a rapper.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (8:56)

Right.

Lecrae (8:56)

But there's no such thing as Christian rap. There's rap cannot follow Christ. Right, But Chris. But people can.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (9:04)

Right?

Lecrae (9:05)

So I. When you use Christian as an adjective, I just think it gets muddy because now it was like, oh, this is a Christian chair. What makes it a Christian chair? Or that's a Christian movie. What makes it a Christian. It is a movie that reflects the heart of Christians.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (9:23)

Yes.

Lecrae (9:23)

You know, and so I get it, but people. But it's so. But to your point, call them demons, call it Christian rap. Yeah, it's Fine.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (9:31)

Let us help, you know, a little bit better.

Lecrae (9:32)

Right. Okay, Understood.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (9:33)

Okay. The Greek word for demon is daimonion.

Lecrae (9:37)

Yeah.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (9:38)

And in the same way that elohim is a categorical term, diamonian is a categorical term.

Lecrae (9:44)

Yeah.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (9:45)

So I could say to you, Craig, your sneakers guy.

Lecrae (9:47)

Yeah.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (9:48)

Favorite shoe.

Lecrae (9:49)

Oh, I'm. I'm probably Jordan force.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (9:53)

Ooh, you're a force. I'm a force guy. Okay. I got some. I got some threes on. Okay, that. That's good. You know, I love the ones. The problem with the ones for me is I'm getting older and I think my ankles are getting weaker and they, like, scrape against my. And it drives me crazy. Right. Okay. Are you an Adidas guy?

Lecrae (10:10)

So?

Dr. Joel Mutamali (10:11)

So would you ever wear Adidas socks with a pair of.

Lecrae (10:15)

Never. Don't even ask me this question. This is a sin. This is a cardinal sin.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (10:19)

Okay. This. The definition of unclean, like the nephilim. Okay. Okay. But I started with a categorical term called sneakers.

Lecrae (10:27)

Sure.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (10:27)

Okay. But then we got into the specifics of what kind of sneaker are we talking about? So I want to think about demons as a categorical term, like sneakers. Underneath that categorical term is a taxonomy, is a kind of listing. It's not concise, it's not explicit. It doesn't. We don't get all of those. So be careful that you don't go too deep into something that we just aren't told in Scripture. But we are told some things. Sure. So, like, let's know better. Right. So demon is a categorical term for an evil, malevolent, spiritual being.

Lecrae (11:02)

Yep.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (11:03)

Okay. And we already talked about in the previous episode, the difference between the demons of the Gospels, which fascinating. The Gospels, they're referred to as unclean spirits. They're unclean because they're the disembodied spirits of half angelic, half human women. Right. And in the Second Temple literature, again, check out Archie Wright's dissertation book on it, the Origin of Evil Spirits in Second Temple Literature. And in. I think it's like early Christianity or something like that. And it kind of works through the language process of it. Once we get to the New Testament, Paul has very precise language that he uses for the demonic. He uses terms like powers, principalities, authorities, and thrones. These are technical terms that Paul uses to refer to categorically the same dark forces of the Old Testament that we've now called the false gods of the nations. The gods of the nations are being recast in the New Testament as powers, principalities, authorities, thrones, dominions. Okay, okay. Why? Why can we make that bridge again? All this is in the unseen battle. I do the whole kind of exegetical work and try to make it very applicable for you. But there's a passage in Daniel, Daniel, chapter 10, that's very important. I'm going to read this to you. Which, by the way, has absolutely changed my prayer life. I can. I historically have always been a dude that. I love to read books. I read commentaries for fun. Like, that's kind of my jam. You asked me to pray for about five minutes. Probably falling asleep. Like, I just. I just. It just isn't. I can't. This has changed how I've thought about prayer life. Daniel's in the thick of it. He prays Daniel, chapter nine. And then in verse 12, something happens. It says this. Don't be afraid, Daniel, he said to me. And then, this is so wild, this angelic being. For from the first day that you purpose to understand and humble yourself before your God, your prayers were heard. So angelic help, cosmic aid came to. To Daniel. The precursor to that help was prayer.

Lecrae (13:18)

So the Lord is supernatural? Yes, it's a supernatural.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (13:21)

It's a supernatural act. And so then it says, your prayers were heard. I've come because of your prayers. But the prince of the kingdom of. What? The prince of the kingdom of Persia opposed me for 21 days. Then Michael, one of our chief princes, came to help me after I'd been left there with the kings plural of Persia. Now, I have come to help you understand what will happen to your people. You can.

Lecrae (13:43)

So now the demons are possessing powerful leaders in the world.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (13:49)

Okay, so this is what's called the Deuteronomy 32 worldview, but it's called geopolitical activity.

Lecrae (13:56)

Okay.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (13:57)

Okay. So the idea is the gods of the nations have territories that they want to consume and keep and utilize. What Daniel 10 keys us into is the actual theology of Deuteronomy 32 being played out in real terms. So you have an earthly king of Persia, Darius. Right?

Lecrae (14:15)

Sure.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (14:16)

But behind him is a cosmic power.

Lecrae (14:18)

Right.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (14:18)

And that cosmic power is trying to work in and through these human rulers to create chaos and dissension and division, disunity inside of the world.

Lecrae (14:27)

Okay, you need a little brain break real quick. I know, because your brain's probably exploding from what you're listening to right now. Because I am blown away by some of the things that has been shared by my brother here on the pod. A different kind of brain break that I've had to deal with recently is when my energy dips right, like I start feeling off, I did not know that it's hydration related. It's not sleep, it's not coffee, it's hydration. So I've been changing what I do. Drip Drop is now my go to fix. So between nonstop working and traveling and trying to stay active, I can feel when just drinking some water is not cutting it. That's when I, I'm like, okay, I got to do something different. And Drip Drop has helped me rebound faster and stay sharp. Drip Drop is hydration designed to keep up when water alone isn't enough. Right? What Drip Drop is, it's, it's daily for me. It's, it's making me feel better right away. And I'm treating hydration as a part of my daily ritual. So it's up there with skin care, it's up there with sleep. It's the kind of habit that makes everything work better. And it's why I've been actually sticking with it. What I used to think, because you're like, what is Drip drop? Why, why not just water? What I used to think right were electrolytes were just for athletes or like super intense workouts. But Drip Drop changes all that, right? It's a go to reset button for busy days, brain fog, travel, whatever. Because staying hydrated keeps you clear headed and ready for whatever's next. What Drip Drop is, is doctor developed proven fast hydration that helps your body and your mind work better. Which is exactly what your 2026 needs, all of our 2026 needs. So I want you to think support for busy days, long workouts and everything in between. Drip Drop uses science based formulas for rapid hydration so you feel results fast while getting three times the electrolytes of leading sports drinks. Drip Drop is trusted by firefighters, medical professionals, literally over 90% of top college and pro sports teams. And the reason why is because it's engineered to hydrate you faster, more effectively than water alone. If you got goals this year here that you want to stick with, this is one of them. All right? So make sure that you tap in and if you're watching what you put in your body, Drip Drop also dropped a sugar free version. They just dropped zero sugar. Plus it's a breakthrough formula with an advanced blend of six key electrolytes, 15 essential vitamins and nutrients, and no sugar or artificial sweeteners. It's a complete package. It's going to check every box and then some. And honestly, all their products taste amazing. They taste good. I like them. There's 16 original flavors, eight zero sugar plus options. That's what I use. That fits seamlessly into my routine. I mean, morning, pre workout, post workout, midday slump. I like all the flavors. I'm just being honest with you. So you pick yours. And to make it easy, Drip Drop has a flexible subscription option. So you're never stuck without proven fast hydration. Whether you hitting the gym, whether you juggling work or you just trying to stay consistent with your January reset. Trust me. Right now Drip Drop is offering podcast listeners 20% off your first order. So go to drip drop.com use promo code LECRAE. That's dripdrop.com promo code LECRAE. For 20% off stock up@drip drop.com use the promo code lecrae. Now, really quickly, Joel is giving us some great insight and great perspective. A lot of times we navigate spiritual warfare with various different perspectives. And I want to take a second to address something because there are Christians out there who spend years thinking that they're broken or thinking that they're failing God because they're struggling with unwanted or distressing thoughts. And that is not a spiritual failure, right? It could be due to a common but overlooked condition that's called religious ocd. And I'm talking about thoughts that interrupt your worship. Am I praying right? Will God forgive me if I make a mistake in my prayer? I gotta start over and do it perfectly this time. You know, maybe a blasphemous image pops in your head and you're like, oh my gosh, I've sinned just for thinking this. If there are unwanted thoughts like that, that can be a sign of religious ocd, which is also known as scrupulosity ocd. Now, this is a form of OCD that can turn your faith into a source of constant guilt, doubt, fear. But because the condition is still widely misunderstood, a lot of people don't even know that it can show up this way or that it can center around their faith. But what you have to understand is that OCD is not about just being neat or organized. Those are the stereotypes. OCD latches onto what you care about most and it causes this cycle of distressing and intrusive thoughts and behaviors that you do to get rid of the anxiety, like praying until it feels just right or confessing sin over and over again trying to solve or figure out your thoughts. But any relief from these behaviors is going to be short lived. So that cycle is going to start again. And a lot of people are silently struggling with religious ocd, thinking that is some Sort of personal failure or a lack of faith. And that's not true. It's actually very far from the truth. It's a common type of ocd, highly treatable, especially with the right kind of specialized therapy. And that is where no CD comes in. So no CD is the world's leading OCD treatment provider. All their licensed therapists are trained in erp, or Exposure and Response Prevention therapy. It's the most effective treatment for ocd. No CD therapists deeply understand ocd, so they know that these thoughts don't mean anything about you. In live virtual sessions, they help you break free from OCD's grip while still honoring your faith. So you can get back to focusing on, on what matters most. No CD is covered by insurance for over 155 million Americans. They provide support between sessions, so you're never going to feel alone. If you think you might be struggling with religious OCD, don't wait. Head over to nocd.com and book a free 15 minute call with their team today and start reclaiming your faith from OCD. That's nocd.com the news just made sense to me for the first time. I see it now.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (20:46)

You see it, right? Yeah. Okay, so the language is important. The Hebrew Bible, when it's translated into Greek, particularly the Theodosian text, it uses archon, the Greek word archon, to refer to these princes. But guess what Paul uses to refer to rulers. Archon.

Lecrae (21:07)

Why? Okay, how much power do demons really have?

Dr. Joel Mutamali (21:11)

Yeah, yeah. Okay, so the, the power, the power of the demons in the Old Testament is a bit more significant in this sense to the false gods of the nations, because they were given allotted rule and reign of the nations. The problem is they go into a transgression, a rebellion. Right? And so this is why God makes it possible. Out of all the nations of the world, Israel is like the only one that has a path for foreigners to become actual Israelites. Now for the dudes, it's going to be costly. It's this thing called circumcision. Right. But you can participate in the Passover if, if you are circumcised and you come to know, to know God in the New Testament, what can demons actually do? What can these powers and principalities, authorities really do? I want to do a couple of things. One, I want to connect some dots because you just said it. He said, now the news makes sense. Okay. There's a passage in 1 Corinthians that says if the powers and authorities knew, knew what Jesus was about to do, they would have Never sent Jesus to the cross. Right. So what is that saying? Powers and principalities is the same language that Paul is using to refer to spiritual forces. Interestingly, there's a double entendre that's being used here because while you have cosmic forces at play, there very much are human rulers there as well. So in the story of Jesus, you have Roman Empire, you have Pharisees and Sadducees, right? And you have the presence of dark forces at work. So if the dark powers knew what Jesus was about to do on the cross, they would have never sent him there. And by the way, the cross, the Romans don't. Don't invent the cross. The cross is actually evident hundreds of years earlier in Babylon and Persia. What the Romans do is they perfect the cross. They perfect its sign and symbol. So dark powers are actually even working in the development of the cross through human history as the ideal weapon to deal with the Mashiach, the Anointed One.

Lecrae (23:16)

How are demons influencing us? Are they reading our minds? Are they possessing people to make decisions? Are they help motivating people to create propaganda?

Dr. Joel Mutamali (23:27)

Like, okay, I think of it as a spectrum, and I think it starts with what is normative? No, it's non normative. What's normative? The enemy is presenting to us consistently things that are beautiful, that we ought to desire, that we want to take. See, desire and take. Okay, so think of Rome. So Rome with Jesus. Rome wants to keep authority. Pilate wants to keep his own power. Right? And so the dark forces are consistently like, by the way, this Jesus, he's about to. He's about to overthrow all of you with. With this rebellion. So you go to the cross. So then the. The dark powers are working in and through humanity's selfish ambition, their vain conceit. Paul talks about this as the vices of the flesh. And. And in so doing, elicits a response for them.

Lecrae (24:11)

Is that a possession? Is it a mixture?

Dr. Joel Mutamali (24:14)

This is a spectrum.

Lecrae (24:15)

Spectrum. Okay.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (24:16)

I think it always starts with whispers. I think it always. I. I think what the enemy. So here, couple man, there's so much here. A couple things that I think we need to do to set some ground rules. The. These dark forces are not on the same ontological level as Yahweh. They are not the same. So sometimes I think we think of them and we think of the incommunicable attributes of God. His omniscience, his omnipresence, his omnipotence, his all knowing, all present and all powerful. And we just automatically equate that to these dark powers, they're not any of those things, they're created beings. So in light of that, I think of the dark powers, they love to mass market sin, they love scaling sin, Right? Because if they can utilize AI, if they can utilize pornography, if they can utilize the ad network, the algorithm on your Instagram, I mean, they are mass marketing sin in such a way that our own now sinful flesh is being enticed to participate in these things that they're using to kind of fast track our own ambition. So that's one side of it, right. I think that's what gets, that's what happens with, with Jesus is he ends up on the cross. But what the dark powers don't realize is what they think is going to defeat Jesus. When Jesus hangs on the cross, all they did was ensure their own hanging, right? Jesus hangs on the cross, but they hung themselves. It's actually a reversal of the Haman and Mordecai story. Haman thinks he's about to take out Mordecai, builds a gallows, but actually he just hangs himself in the very gallows that he builds. Right. So you have that one side. Now in some cases, is there actual oppression in a one to one ratio? Yes. We see an example of this with Judas and you know, the devil entered into Judas. I actually think it's fascinating right before the Last Supper, when Jesus washes the disciples feet, right. It said that the enemy, the devil, had just departed Judas after imparting into him, like, here's the evil that you're going to do. And right after this, Jesus gives us this model of humility, you know. And so in the non normative, in a one to one scenario, does the enemy actually actively oppress? Yes. Go back to Luke chapter four. You have the man who's possessed by a demon, Right. What's fascinating is the demon is cast out, but the human is preserved. Right. And then the very next chapter, the very next story right after that in Luke 4, is Peter's mom.

Lecrae (26:50)

Yeah.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (26:51)

She's held captive by a fever. The Greek language that held captive is the same kind of language that's used of demonic oppression. And so there's this tendency that even sickness at times. Now I'm trying to be careful. Yeah, it's not normative. Right. But at times the enemy can even use sickness, mental health, schizophrenia, bipolar, all these kinds of things. Not normatively, but at times can use these things to create chaos. And then you have to ask yourself, how does this happen? I think it happens through entry points into our Soul that are compromising our human dignity and our human image that we bear the image of God. So when we participate in vices of the flesh, alcoholism, opioid addiction, DMT and ayahuasca, I mean, yo, this. This whole thing of opening yourself up so that you can experience knowledge is nothing new. Dark powers want you to be inebriated of mind so that you are conned into believing that they have your best in store for you. Which is why First Peter 5:8 says, Be sober minded.

Lecrae (28:03)

Yeah.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (28:04)

Right.

Lecrae (28:04)

Now, what do you say? Because on one end of the spectrum, right. You've got Jesus in the wilderness being whispered to. Right. Hey, listen, this is what I can do for you. So there's a whisper of sorts that people are trying to figure out, well, am I being whispered to by demonic forces? There is an oppression, Right. Like we see with the demoniac and so on and so forth. And now you're saying there are portals, so to speak, that you can open, entry points. Right. What? When? A lot of times people will say, wait a minute, now, what is. Where's the. The rubric for what is a portal or an entry point and what's not? Like, why is caffeine. The caffeine plant not an entry point, but the ayahuasca plant is an entry point? Where's the.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (28:58)

I would say, who told you the caffeine plant is not an entry point? Shoot. Who told you that?

Lecrae (29:03)

All right.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (29:04)

Right. I would say anything that is a neutral thing that becomes an ultimate thing will always become an idolatrous thing. Anything. Enemy loves it. You love about your physical Fitness, y'. All CrossFit, doing the whole thing. When that becomes an ultimate thing, that will become a destructive, idolizing thing in your life there. I want somebody to write a PhD dissertation one day about CrossFit and the amount of infidelity that takes place at CrossFit gyms. I really do. I would love for somebody to do this.

Lecrae (29:34)

That's where they're spending all their time, their attention, their.

Redfin Announcer (29:36)

Their.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (29:37)

Now they're creating level of connection.

Lecrae (29:40)

Yeah.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (29:41)

In a way that might be disconnected from their own spouse or from the right. They're finding value in another place. But it's all being masqueraded as I care about my health, I want to. My fitness, I got to be right. But there's something good about that. But taken to an extreme, it'll become destructive. The enemy loves to work in the. It's the caffeine, it's the alcoholism. It's pornography in totality is evil. But I Think about, like, even something like your Instagram, you know, like, bro, you know how hard I work on my Instagram to like, tailor my algorithm? I have worked so hard on my Instagram to tailor my algorithm to German shepherd puppies. I'm being dead serious right now. You can look at it. German shepherd puppies. Because I've got a German shepherd dog. I love her. Her name's Lady. To basketball memes of Jordan versus LeBron. Every I see a new one, I screenshot it. And I've got a folder on my phone anytime somebody wants to debate me about that and nerdy Bible theology stuff and. And without fail, I'll be scrolling. There it is.

Lecrae (30:38)

Yeah, yeah, look.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (30:39)

Linger, Desire. It's trying to rob me of something. And what's so wild is it's like my wife and I talk about this all the time. It's like, can you look at somebody and say, hey, they're beautiful. Yeah, move on. Yeah, but it's like

Lecrae (30:54)

linger.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (30:54)

Yeah, yeah, like, oh. You know what I'm saying? And so I think these are the areas. Like, the caffeine is such an interesting one. It's like, it's an unholy exchange of dependence is really what it is.

Lecrae (31:06)

So would you say for someone who's like, well, I do Ayahuasca journeys, but I don't worship it. Right. Like, but it's taking the. Is the non sober realm that they're walking into the entry point? Or is it the idea that that non sober realm is them into somewhere supernatural and spiritual?

Dr. Joel Mutamali (31:26)

That's both end.

Lecrae (31:27)

Okay.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (31:28)

It's. It's the deceptive thought. Before Adam and Eve ever take of the fruit, the serpent says, did God really say. Right before they ever even experience the full weight of the knowledge of good and evil, the serpent places a curious thought. Is God actually good? Does he care about your. Your ultimate good? The a. The DMT thing is so fascinating to me. I remember I was. This was a couple years ago, I was having a conversation with a pastor friend of mine and it was kind of wild. He was like, hey, somebody read Mike's book. It was a staff member and his wife. Basically, the wife had read Mike's book, the Unseen Realm, and I was just working on the unseen battle and had sent some early, early copies out to some friends to give me some pastoral insight. Because I want this book to encourage people in confidence in Christ, but also warn them of the deception of the enemy. Right? So the goal is not to go deeper into areas that you are not to go deeper into. So I'm in this conversation, and my past friend's like, bro, would you ju on a zoom call with me? And this. This couple. The wife basically has gone, read the unseen realm, went deep into it, and now she's doing, like, tarot cards, astrology, like, the whole nine yards, right? I'm like, absolutely. And then she quotes me. Like, she's like, oh, well, I read this or I heard this from Dr. Joel on this. And. And so my buddy was like, well, that's so interesting. He's my friend. Can we do a. Can we do a zoom call? I'm like, I will do that 100%. Craig. We get onto the zoom call. And I mean, I am the guy who, like, wrote this stuff, right? I studied underneath the guy who wrote this stuff. And I'm like, that's not, like, what Mike wrote. That's not what I said. Like, this is the context. And she just. But I just don't understand because, like, if God created all things, even the crystals, like, and there's good energy in the crystal, why. Why shouldn't I? Or if ayahuasca is a plant that God created and, like, why, you know? And the Holy Spirit. It was the oddest moment. The Holy Spirit started to whisper something into my heart. I've never really had this moment maybe two or three times in my entire life. And the Holy Spirit just said, hey, ask about me. And then I said back to the Holy Spirit. I got this. I got a PhD. I'm going through, like, exegetically and theologically, you know, I'm getting nowhere. We're like an hour and a half in the Holy Spirit. It's like, hey, ask her about me. I was like, all right. So I was like, hey, do you believe in the indwelling Holy Spirit? Yes, absolutely. Do you believe that this is the same Holy Spirit that rose Jesus from the dead? The promise, John, chapter 17, that the Paraclete, the helper, would come and to lead us into all truth and empower us and equip us. Ephesians, chapter six. Yes, absolutely. So I asked her this question. If you believe and if you have the indwelling Holy Spirit, it. What need do you have for any other spiritual practice? It was the wildest thing. She never answered the question. She moved to something else. And then, like, five, six minutes later, I, like, brought it back. No, no, no. Hey, I want to go back to this question. And she just never would answer that question. And I would. I would ask the exact same thing to you, right? Like, I would ask the exact same thing to you. DMT ayahuasca but it's just an opportunity to learn more and to grow more. Well, first Peter 5:8 says be sober minded that you might resist the temptations of the enemy. You might resist the devil. It's actually in a posture of compromise, cognitive, mental, emotional, like compromise, that the enemy wants to deceive you. But the Lord wants to interact with us and love us and know us in our sobriety of mind. And so like, can you experience some level of enlightenment? I'm sure you can. Is it going to bankrupt your soul in the long haul? I'm confident it will.

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Dr. Joel Mutamali (37:14)

I'm confident it will. Now.

Lecrae (37:16)

Now there are, there are Christian, allegedly Christian groups who take LSD trips and all types of different things in order to like in from their vantage point, connect with God. Yeah, right. My pushback and I'm interested what your thoughts would be, but my pushback is why would God make it so exclusive if he wanted his creation to connect with Him? Why would you, why would it have to be in this exclusive way that you got to go out and purchase it and buy it and you know, and then you got to find a guide and you gotta, you know, it's like, like. And then some people say, well even outside of lsd there's other drugs that you just, that are way more exclusive but they cost a lot of money. And then you can really find healing and transformation. And in my mind I'm like, why would God want healing to be so. And I don't think he does. Right. So I get it if you're big pharma. Right? Right, right. But if you're a Christian organization, I, my brain doesn't wrap, doesn't quite wrap around it. So, so the motive to me is off. But I'm just curious like from your vantage point, not even the motive, just like what could the potential dangers be for something like this?

Dr. Joel Mutamali (38:39)

I think about it like as an ancient issue of like Gnosticism, hidden knowledge. Right. Like we're still buying into the same stuff. It's this level of exclusivity like, like I've got the secret knowledge, I've got the exclusive drug, I've got the. And God wants to meet with you through it. It is absolutely a weaponizing of, of a religious, like talk about spiritual wounding, you know, religious wounding. It's a, it's a weaponizing of that. And by the way, what you're encountering there is, this is the Gospel of John, John's like by the way, test the spirits because not all of the spirits are of God and not all spirits are the spirit of God. Right. And so yeah bro, like, I just think that part of it is, is an exclusivity for it. Part of it is just a gross misunderstanding. Like think of all the things that God could have given us to do. It's like, what is spiritual warfare ultimately for me, spiritual warfare, the normative practice that you and I practice. Spiritual Warfare every day is proclamation of the gospel. The very last thing that Jesus tells us, go make disciples and baptize them in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. Right. Teaching them to do all that I've taught. Like, it's like, oh, this is the primary means of our spiritual warfare. It is people going from death to life. And then also it's like, what is the means of grace that God gives to us? It's kind of like, well, we have his word, we have prayer, we have fellowship with the believers. Right. Like I think about Acts chapter two, and all the believers had everything in common and they gave to each other as they had need. And the Lord added to their number.

Lecrae (40:19)

Yeah.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (40:20)

You know, and it's almost at this point where it's like, well, that's not good enough. Yeah, it's like Garden of Eden again. All of the fruit is good for you. All the fruit is good for you. Of this one, don't eat. And the enemy's like, how about that one?

Lecrae (40:33)

Yeah, what about this one?

Dr. Joel Mutamali (40:34)

What about the one? You know? And so it's almost like, man, we and I have ways to connect tangibly. I think one of the most powerful ways that we connect is in the presence of other believers. Like, we were never meant to live this life alone. You know, I was actually talking to somebody who you're in a Bible study with, and he just said to me that one of the most life giving things that has ever happened to him is to be in a group, a Bible study group with a couple of guys that are just like real. Right. Like the got you. And I just thought, oh yeah, like that is the normative experience that God wants us to experience Himself is his image. This second Corinthians 5 making his appeal. The enemy loves to have us buy into exclusivity. Alternate means, you know, in order to gain enlightenment, but you gain a kind of enlightenment and what have you actually gained? Are you going to be satisfied? I just think that the trajectory of human history has told us that the more money, the more power, the more influence, the more social media followers, the more viral your stuff goes, does not produce joy and satisfaction and a flourishing interior life.

Lecrae (41:56)

You just nailed that one. All right, you. In our last episode, you addressed something from a spiritual vantage point. And I, and I hadn't heard this before, so I kind of want to tie it into where we are in our current climate. Right. Like you. You see these millions of pages of an Epstein file come, come to grips,

Dr. Joel Mutamali (42:19)

which supposedly the nephilim are mentioned in there too. You heard about this?

Lecrae (42:23)

No.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (42:23)

Apparently there's some nephilim chamber.

Lecrae (42:25)

Okay, okay. This is getting dark, bro. This is getting dark. Epstein is dark.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (42:33)

It's bad.

Lecrae (42:34)

So with the Epstein files, I did not know all of the levels of darkness. But what it's showing me is that there can be years, decades, centuries of just abuse, molestation, taking advantage of people, trafficking of people, and just gets buried. But it's, It's. It's happening in these places of power and high places. And then you were taught, you were saying, like, I think of like, child sacrifices in the ancient scriptures and. And you know, the trafficking done by the sons of God, daughters of man. Yeah. How does what we've seen in scripture tie into what we're seeing now? And like, how is this all. How is it, like, does it tie in? And what are we seeing that we may not even realize?

Dr. Joel Mutamali (43:36)

I mean, I think what we're seeing is the closer the kingdom of God comes to a broken world, the more that we are forced into the repercussions of healing. You see, like. Like the kingdom of God, this is like how Jesus teaches us how to pray on earth as it is in heaven. Right. And so Jesus casts out demons. It's the in breaking of the kingdom of God. And the more you and I advance the gospel of Jesus, the more that we. This is Acts, chapter 17. That God has determined a lot of places of your existence, the very boundaries of your existence and the times of your existence, that we might draw close to God and find him and be near to Him. And it's like, oh, okay. So in each of these spaces, you and I are called to be light in the midst of darkness. And light always exposes that darkness. And we're watching that happen in real time. And I think what it's begging us to come to terms with is our own sanctification, our own holiness. It's really asking us some deep questions of our own dependence.

Lecrae (44:42)

Yeah.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (44:42)

You know, the things that the world saw, like, I mean, you think about Epstein's like, he's got it all going for him, you know? At what cost, my goodness? And who is at cost?

Lecrae (44:53)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (44:54)

And at what point does your conscience get so compromised, Right. Where you just overlook it all and neglect it all and you invite others into that chaos with you, you know? And so, I mean, this is going to sound so simple, but it's far from simplistic. I think what it's exposing to us is that Paul was serious when he was talking about in the last days I think this is in Romans, maybe it's Corinthians. In the last days, people will be lovers of self, they'll be lovers of money, they'll be slanderers. Right. And then the one that terrifies you in the most, at the very end of the list, he says, and they will have the appearance of godliness, but they will deny its power. They will have the appearance of godliness, but will deny its power.

Lecrae (45:42)

That's good.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (45:43)

And so I just. I just think that you and I, like, part of this whole unseen battle that we're a part of is a question of allegiance.

Lecrae (45:52)

Yeah.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (45:53)

Who actually has our allegiance? And do we put that on display in what we do, what we say? And also, man, maybe I shouldn't. I don't know if I should say it or not. It's like, at some level, you'll be known not just for what you say, but for your silence as well, for what you don't say. Complicit, your complicit, you know, and that exposes something deep. Right.

Lecrae (46:16)

There are a lot of people who saw Jesus getting crucified and do nothing. It's like, it's tough.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (46:23)

Right, Right.

Lecrae (46:23)

I mean, we saw. Yeah, we saw Peter bawling, crying because of his denial, which is. It's the same as.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (46:30)

I mean, but I think even that the issue is ambition. I think that they would have been willing to fight if Jesus came as conquering king in that moment.

Lecrae (46:39)

Sure.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (46:40)

Right. But the issue is the ambition was compromised. And this is kind of like my thing too, is like, I used to think, Craig, back in the day, like, maybe five, six, seven years ago, I was like, my greatest fear is that people would not know the name of Jesus. That is no longer my fear. My fear now is what Jesus are they going to know? Because what we have is a perversion of the name and the personhood of Jesus. If sanctification is about aim and ambition, my aim is Jesus. My ambition is to become like the one I'm aiming for. And we are living in a day and time when our aim is ourselves and our ambition is ourselves. And we love to leverage Jesus to get what we want, when we want it, how we want it. Right? And so in that, it's like, oh, we're not being conformed to the image of Jesus. We're trying to conform Jesus to be in my image. Right? And so, like, are we taking Jesus on his own terms? Are we living out the ethics that he has actually called us to think about the Sermon on the Mount, Right. Like the Beatitudes, this upside down way of living. And so I think all of these things like the Epstein files, is actually exposing the entire Beatitudes, every single one of them.

Lecrae (47:56)

Blessed are name your the meek, the humble.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (48:01)

You know, blessed are those who suffer. Blessed are. You know, it's like man,

Redfin Announcer (48:06)

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Cindy Crawford (49:08)

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Lecrae (50:11)

Probably my last question before we get into some underwater questions. I have so many but like you are I Mean, you write this book, the Unseen Battle, right? You're walking people through a world of dark powers and spiritual warfare. To a lot of us, it's novelty. It's like, what? But it's also very real. Right. And we haven't studied it in the way that you have. What have you come across that you're like, oh, shoot, this is like, maybe you can't even prove it, but in your gut it's like, oh, man, this is. The implications of this are crazy.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (50:57)

Yeah. I think the biggest one is I used to always say, like, a blanket statement was like, man, if you're a believer, you can't be possessed. That was always a blanket statement for me. Right. Like, very. Like, oh, oppression, yes. Possession, no. Right. Right now I'm like, I don't think it's that clean. Clean cut, bro.

Lecrae (51:12)

Really?

Dr. Joel Mutamali (51:12)

I don't think it's that clean cut. Because the Greek text has specific words for possession. None of them are used in. In reference to demonic activity. That. The Daimonian kind of language. It's language that's being used about control. And so the thing that the implications for me is like, the very real plausibility that you can have a person who loves Jesus, who has been submitted to Jesus, has an allegiance to Jesus, and yet willingly, over time, withdraws. And this is where Paul's like, yo, don't give the enemy a foothold. Well, why that language of foothold? The purpose of a foothold is never to stay on the exterior. The purpose of a foothold is to create opportunity to get deeper in. To get deeper in. And so one of the things that I've been, like, deeply convicted of is don't be, like, overconfident in this blanket saying, I got the Holy Spirit inside of me, so I'm good. Well, no, you're good, but you're good only as far as you are dependent on the power of the Holy Spirit to continually sanctify you

Lecrae (52:27)

if it's possible for a believer to be possessed.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (52:30)

Now, I don't. Okay, so when I say this, what I'm saying is possession is not the most precise term.

Lecrae (52:36)

Sure. Okay.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (52:37)

I would use the phrase, like, demonization. And for a believer to be demonized at such a level that they have willingly withdrawn. And every step back that you take, the enemy is taking a step forward. So you are willing, seemingly handing over agency and control to an enemy, so much so that it has compromised now your life.

Lecrae (53:00)

And from your theological framework, is that remedied by deliverance from others? Prayer. Like, what are you what would you say?

Dr. Joel Mutamali (53:11)

Prayer.

Lecrae (53:11)

Okay.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (53:12)

Fasting, confession of sin. And by the way, there's this thing called therapy. I don't know if you ever heard about it, this thing called therapy.

Lecrae (53:20)

Therapy.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (53:20)

Okay. That you might need to do some soul work. Okay, Right. Like, like there are some things that maybe have happened in your childhood that have traumatized you in such a level that there's some undercurrent stuff that's happening that you're going to have to deal with, with a, with a licensed professional who can help you navigate through that to do some healing work. I just don't think that therapy and theology should be divorced of each other and act like actually the Greek word therapeo, it has in mind recovering wholeness. Well, what does it mean to be a whole human? I argue that it means a person who is whole spiritually, emotionally and physically. Physically, you know, and that's what Jesus is doing in his earthly ministry.

Lecrae (53:55)

Now you, you're saying, and I agree with you 10,000%, you're saying that a person can withdraw so much that they, they put themselves in a position to be demonized. I can agree with that. I, I can totally see that. I think most of us could see that. But what about someone who says, man, I was in China, I walked into a Buddhist temple and I came out with demons. Do you think that's a real a thing or is like from your.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (54:19)

Well, I'll tell you this. I was in India years and years ago and I went to a temple of death, the temple of death in India. And they like worshiped death as a deity. Right? It was the wildest thing. You go into the temple and everything around the temple, it's all beautiful, right? But the land of the temple itself was all desecrated and evil to the point where even the monkeys, the monkeys outside the temple, all like beautiful, active. The monkeys on the temples grounds, like decrepit, like, like anemic looking, looking all kinds of wild and crazy. And I will tell you this. My grandfather would not let us go any further than the outskirts of it. We're not allowed to go inside of that place. And there are stories of people, believers who have walked into that place and then came out in sickness, unexplained death. Like some pretty, pretty like wild things have happened. So I would say that we ought to have some deep levels of humility in this. I've got a friend of mine, his name is Jeremy Jenkins and Jeremy is like a missiologist actually goes to these places and he's like a World religions expert. And we're talking about India and we're talking about like the, the death river that's in there. And he basically was like, that was a one time deal for me. A one time deal for me, bro. Because of the weightiness, the spiritual warfare, the cosmic reality of it. Like if you have sacred space and there's absolutely desecrated space as well. So there's a part of this, this lecrae where I just also think that we have to be aware of what the Lord has called us to and what he has not called us to.

Lecrae (55:50)

Yeah.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (55:51)

Where we're gifted and where we lack gifting human, human awareness of, of who we are. And, and so in that, yeah, I would say I, I have seen it. So I would caution be very caught. This is like Ouija boards. Like we kind of have like a, like a thing with my family. You know, I was like, I was here in Atlanta, Ponce Market. You've been over there. Place was so cool. I was here with my family once and we went to the bottom and had all the food and the top has all those stores went to the top. And there was a, a toy store with a glass thing in the front, you know. And I'm with my daughter and she's into unicorns and Legos. It's like unicorns, Barbies, Legos. And I saw a dad with his daughter. Daughter must have been like 10 or 11 years old. And the daughter was like, like daddy, what's that? And then I'm like, I'm, you know, I'll listen to people's conversations. So he's pointing and he looks like, oh. And you could tell he was kind of caught off guard, bro. It was a Ouija board on the glass display.

Lecrae (56:51)

Wow.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (56:51)

Right next to the Legos. Right next to the Barbies right there. And I remember like the branding was something like get the answer to the questions that you've always like been looking for or whatever. And like CS Lewis has a statement about the, the moral compass that we all have. Like, we all. Whether you're a believer or not, you kind of just know what right and wrong from a morality standpoint. And I could hear the dad trying to navigate like, oh my God. You know, and he's. But at the end of it, he didn't have a framework for, for this. Even though I think he knew deep inside that shouldn't be messing around with that. And then it was like, yeah, I guess we can go check it out, you know. And so it's like, like there's Something about, like in our family, like, yeah, it's a hard no for us. It's a hard pass for us. Ouija boards.

Lecrae (57:34)

Terrible.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (57:35)

That's. Yeah. The. The psych. The psychic in the, in the corner, like, talking about, you know, reading your palms and stuff. I'm like, I don't need no astrology cards. I don't need no energy crystals. I don't need no psych. Why I got the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Lecrae (57:48)

Yeah. So give a word to somebody who may have put themselves in a position to be influenced by the dark powers.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (58:03)

Yeah.

Lecrae (58:05)

I'm sitting here, I'm like, oh, shoot, what have I done? Or the person who's just constantly living in fear. Like, should I walk here? Should I go there? Should I listen to this? Can I watch that? Like, where are our. What would you advise a person like that? You know, is it. Stay connected to community and church? Is it, you know, like, where's the. I guess the healthy place, the land?

Dr. Joel Mutamali (58:30)

Yeah. I think often about Galatians, chapter five, Paul's like, hey, walk by the Spirit. Keep in step by the Spirit, be led by the Spirit. And there, there really is a deep level of dependence that we need to have on the Spirit of God. The Spirit of God always leads us back to the Word of God. And always the Word of God always reminds us that we have to be deeply embedded and rooted in the people of God. And so I think those are like non negotiables right off the gat. And then for the person who has dabbled, right, I would just say this, that, that your perspective as a follower of Jesus. Now, first of all, if you haven't given your life to Jesus like you have, there's not a baptism allegiance. That's step one. Like, we gotta do that now, stat. You know, like, don't waste no time. You know, there's some great churches around. Go ahead and get that done. But for the person who has, like, no, I've been baptized, I love Jesus, I'm fallen and. But I've dabbled. Right. I want you to remember that this is in Colossians. I think it's the end of Colossians one, maybe early Colossians two, that the certificate of debt has been canceled by Jesus on the cross. You're washed in the blood of the victory of King Jesus. There's a difference between the fact of something and the impact of that thing. So I want you to know that the fact of that thing has been cleansed. It has been dealt with. Now, might there be an impact of that. That now is going to require some therapy. Right. Some spiritual care, some prayer. Right? Man, don't overlook. I come from a culture, my Indian culture. Whenever we moved into new house, we always did a, a housewarming. And the housewarming always involved anointing, oil, prayer. And if the auntie was getting ready to pray, it was about to be a sermon in a prayer, I'll tell you that much. We're going to be there for, for a bit and, and it's hard because the biryani and the non garlic naan and all that is cooking. You can smell it. But you're going to be. And, but there's something about space.

Lecrae (60:21)

Yeah.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (60:21)

That we want to utilize the things that God has given us in the holiness and the consecration and, and a vis. A visible symbol of an, of an ontological reality. This is not just symbolic in and of itself, but it is symbolic as a kind of seal that is reminding us of the true actual presence of King Jesus who reigns and rules in this place. So I want to remind you of that. And then to the person who's just like walking around living in fear, like, oh my gosh, I just don't know, you know, I would want you to end, I want you to come into reading my book and leaving my book with two things, posture and perspective. The posture that we have coming into this especially now is the posture of humble confidence. Okay. And those two words go together necessarily humble. My first book that I wrote is called the Hidden Peace. And I wanted to write that first because I truly believe that humility is the ancient virtue that sustained the first century church and that all of us are called to, you know, the fruit of the Spirit is actually planted in the soil of humility. And so what is humility? Knowing God, knowing ourselves, knowing others. The big problem with our world today is we're trying to know ourselves apart from God. And if we try to know ourselves apart from God, how in the world this makes sense of all the chaos of our dysfunction with the world, with all other image bearers. So we know God, we know ourselves and we know others. We come into this conversation with confidence not because of what we have achieved, but because of the finished work and victory of Jesus on the cross. Right. And that leads right to perspective. Our perspective is from the perspective of an empty grave. Right. This is the theological category of the already, but not yet that we are living the already victory of King Jesus. We're just walking out the tension of the not yet of his final consummation. And so should you have anxiety? Should you have fear? It's not the question of if you fear it, it's what you do with it. These are opportunities for us to consistently and continually lay them back at the foot of Jesus, commit these things to prayer and be a people deeply devot his word.

Lecrae (62:26)

I don't. I. I am eternally grateful for you, man. Like your, If I'm not mistaken, I. I believe your. Your forward here or your dedication. Sorry, is. Is to Dr. Michael Heiser and. And you know, see you in the divine council, my friend. I. Listen, I. I am excited that you have kind of taken up his, you know, his mission and mindset and put it here for us. And I'm extremely grateful for you and thank you, bro. You know what I mean? I can't thank you enough for your wisdom. Can't thank you enough for your presence. And man, you are definitely. We gotta have you back. You are a friend of the deep end and we are grateful for you, man.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (63:20)

Appreciate you, bro.

Lecrae (63:21)

Thank you. Thank you.

Dr. Joel Mutamali (63:24)

This is the deep end with Lecrae.