← The Deep End With Lecrae
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- [00:00]
Dr. Preston Sprinkle
There's a difference between liking a house and actually getting it.
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Lecrae
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Dr. Preston Sprinkle
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Lecrae
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- [00:23]
Dr. Preston Sprinkle
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Lecrae
In the church, if someone were to come to say, hey, did God make me gay? How do you navigate that right into the deep end?
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Dr. Preston Sprinkle
Man, you're up to the name.
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Lecrae
I remember there was a young lady and I had an opinion on something. She was like, I don't want to hear an opinion from a cisgender. I don't even know what a cisgender is. I'm lost. My son, he's about to graduate high school. We went on a college tour and they kept asking a question at the beginning of every tour. Do you have a preferred pronoun? How do you approach that? Well, I would say I'm ping ponging a little bit. The woman who says, I love my pastor and she's great and she needs to be able to do what she wants to do. And then on one side I get scripture says women can't teach, women can't teach. What do you say to them? Oh, you don't have to tell her you're just fine. Save it.
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Dr. Preston Sprinkle
I can tell you.
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Lecrae
Okay, well, yeah, you ask me the
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Dr. Preston Sprinkle
question, I'll answer it. Based on the Bible, a thorough patient study of the Bible. I do land on the position. I think
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Lecrae
this is the deep end with LaCrae. You don't catch me reading people's intros, but this guest has the, like. I'm kind of impressed with how casual and down to earth he is, but yet how lofty his resume is. So this is what I want you to hear. This is what, first of all, Dr. Preston Sprinkles, a biblical scholar and author, a podcaster, known for engaging topics both intellectual with intellectual rigor and pastoral compassion. I totally agree with that. Absolutely. Co founder and president of the center for Faith, Sexuality, and gender. Holds a PhD in New Testament. With years of experience teaching theology, Preston hits the hot button. Issues in a very intellectual but caring way, which is why I love it. I'm excited to have you here, Dr. Preston Sprinkle. Oh, man.
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Dr. Preston Sprinkle
It's an honor to be here, man. Thanks for having me.
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Lecrae
Oh, man. So, you know, I was fanboying a little bit before we started the podcast just because I hadn't gotten to read any of your works. And then I got an advance copy of your book From Genesis to Junior, and I was just like, oh, my gosh, you answered so many questions that I had. And I want to get into that. But. But also, like, a lot of people know you for the topics of sexuality, right? So I just kind of want to like, jump into the deep end off the top and just ask you, like, what led to you being a spokesman in that particular area, like an advocate? How did that happen?
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Dr. Preston Sprinkle
Oh, man, it's. It wasn't something I planned to do. I. I just. I love to understand what does the Bible actually say about all these hot topics? And like, you, you know, you grow up just having these viewpoints that you absorb, you know, And I just been on a mission to figure out, what does the Bible actually say? So years ago, I just started a. It was a scholarly deep dive. I wanted to understand what did the Bible actually say about same sex relationships. I knew what I was told to believe, but I didn't know why I believed it. And so I just launched me into a deep, deep study of the scriptures and realized that, yeah, God designed marriage to be between a man and a woman. But in that process, I started just to get to know and just. Just listen to gay, lesbian, trans people and just. I just want to hear your story, you know, and, man, it blew my mind. Almost everybody I talked to was raised in a church. In fact, I found out from a later study, 83% of LGBT people were raised in the Christian Church in America. And most of them just had not, not, not simply like theological disagreements, but a lot of just relational hostility, just straight up unkindness and hostility. And that, that wrecked me. So that, that was probably 12 years ago, man. And I just. So I just said, man, we need to hold to the truth of what God's word says about sexuality, but we got to embody the kindness of God that Paul says leads to repentance. And we just have not been doing that in that conversation. So I, I didn't think it was. I thought it was a pretty. Just basic posture of grace and truth, but I realized that makes a lot of people upset.
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Lecrae
Sheesh. Well, I mean, yeah, there's a cultural Christianity that tells us kind of like what we should think about everything. And it often, unfortunately, it's not really biblical. It's not about digging in to understand.
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Dr. Preston Sprinkle
It's more just like it becomes so politicized.
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Lecrae
Yeah, absolutely. And so it. I, I found it very intriguing that you approach stuff like, with it, like a biblical kind of an exegetical process, an ancient Near Eastern. What was happening here, what was going on here, and then bringing it to as which we should do. But a lot of times we just kind of like, go with the flow of culture.
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Dr. Preston Sprinkle
Yeah.
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Lecrae
You were in a debate kind of discussion, and someone started off with a question that I loved. Right. And I'm curious, like, you know, before all the ideologies that we get into on the deep end and like, perspectives and this side, that side, like, what does it mean to be faithful to Jesus?
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Dr. Preston Sprinkle
Oh, man. Yeah. Such a basic question. But here I am, like, how do I respond to that? I mean, faithful, I guess, in the most basic sense, trying to embody the life that Jesus lived. He was very clear on truth. You know, the Sermon on the Mount's like, one of the most stringent religious speeches of all history, you know. You know, so he sets the bar way up here, but then you read the rest of the Gospel, Matthew, and he's reaching out, he's relating to. He's desiring to be with people who are falling short of that standard. So I think that radical embodiment of, Of. Of capital T, truth and, and scandalous grace. I think Jesus did that when, when they tried to pull it, pull him into different camps with the Sadducees and Pharisees and where are you at? You know, like, he's just like, I don't fit in these, these boxes. I'm embodying the. The way of my father. And it's going to be disruptive.
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Lecrae
Yeah.
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Dr. Preston Sprinkle
And so it's going to disrupt religious people. It's going to disrupt non religious people. And so, yeah, I think that's what faithfulness looks like.
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Lecrae
Yeah.
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Dr. Preston Sprinkle
Yeah.
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Lecrae
And, you know, I guess there's a, I guess there's a bumper sticker I see all the time or I've heard about. I don't see it as much, but it's kind of like God said it. I believe it. That settles it.
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Dr. Preston Sprinkle
My grandma used to tell me that.
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Lecrae
Right. And I think there's this like, gap of God said it, I interpreted it.
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Dr. Preston Sprinkle
Yes.
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Lecrae
And. And how important has interpretation been for you in this journey that you've taken people?
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Dr. Preston Sprinkle
It's huge. It's huge. Absolutely huge. I mean, that was something that, throughout my educational journey and even just continuing to study the Bible, like. Yeah. Understanding the social context, the historical context, understanding that sometimes translations don't quite. English translations don't quite capture the meaning of what's going on. Sometimes there's the, as I talk about in the book, there's Greek words that are really debated and the meaning is much more ambiguous than what we might see. So, yeah, I think there's a simplicity to the message of Scripture. There's also a beautiful complexity that excites me, though. It means that I could be 91 years old studying the Bible for my entire life, and I'm still going to be discovering fresh things or seeing things in a different way. And that's, to me, that's not, you know, some people find that problematic. I think that's exciting, you know.
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Lecrae
Yeah, you do a great job of talking about. And I do want to get into some of some of these things, like some of the cultural nuances of gender identity and sexuality historically. You do a great job of talking through that and people love to hear you talk about it because you've done so much thought on it. But then I got to reading this book, so I kind of want to take a U turn for a second and talk about this book for a second. From Genesis to Junior, you know, what's the basic premise of this book? For those who may not have ever heard of these, this name.
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Dr. Preston Sprinkle
The basic premise is I was raised in a strong, what people call a complementarian background where women don't exercise any kind of leadership, pastoral role in the church context. And, you know, I read 1st Timothy 2 and 1st Corinthians and I was like, all right, makes sense. Women can't teach or preach, you know. But then over the years I got to know probably like, you you know, people that believe in the authority of scripture who say, no, that's not actually what these texts mean. And so for, for years I was like, man, this issue is biblically more complex than I have realized. And I'm the type of person that until I really do a thorough, like, deep dive study, like, read, I, I'm just, I get really obsessive when I start digging into a topic. I want to read everything. I, I want to leave no stones unturned. And, and there's just a lot of literature on the topic. And so I said, until I have time in my schedule to really wade through all the issues, I'm just going to kind of plead the fifth and say, I, I don't know where I land on this topic. So a few years ago, I, I got some space in my schedule and I said, I'm going to set out on a journey to an exegetical journey. I just want to know what does this ancient religious text say about women in church leadership? And as you know, I wrote the introduction in real time before I knew where I was going to land.
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Lecrae
Hilarious.
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Dr. Preston Sprinkle
People try to call me like, you had a view ahead of time. And I, I'm not, I'm not saying we don't have biases or whatever, but I genuinely did not generally, didn't need to land in a certain position. So the book basically documents my exegetical journey from Genesis. I got a big chapter on the rest of the Old Testament and then mainly, you know, several chapters on the New Testament. Just trying to see what does the Bible actually say about women in leadership.
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Lecrae
So, and, you know, I, I, there's, there's so many ways to go with this, but I think generally speaking, people think like, it's more of an emotional issue. It's like, should women teach and preach? Should they lead or not? Generally, I get a lot of emotion that comes out of that. If you say, hey, what do you think about women teaching or exercising authority? And then you get like, on one side, what I've seen is, well, I love my pastor and she's great and she needs to be able to do what she wants to do. And then on one side I get, Scripture says women can't teach, women can't teach, and that's it. And you kind of like, let's, let's, let's just see what the Bible says, and not just what it says, but let's interpret what it says. And I thought that was very interesting. You started in Genesis and you gave some, you know, there's A lot of conversations about, like, Adam and Eve.
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Dr. Preston Sprinkle
Yeah.
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Lecrae
Talk through, like, some of the realizations and thoughts that you got from that.
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Dr. Preston Sprinkle
Yeah. Genesis 1 and 2, 1 to 3, the whole narrative of Adam and Eve, that. That is pretty foundational to the, to the debate. And, you know, people raise all kinds of arguments about Adam's authority in that passage. You know, like, you know, he was born first. He was. Well, he was not born. He was created first, and therefore the firstborn had authority over the second born, you know, in the ancient, nearest context. And, and that's. That's true. There was a principle of what people call primogeniture. The, the firstborn son, you know, when the father passes away, he, you know, takes over as the patriarch, as the one in authority. And like, okay, that makes sense, you know, but. But then you look at the, the Adam and the creation of Adam and Eve, it's like, well, he's not the first born. He's the first created. Eve is not his brother or sister, it's his wife, and the father hasn't died yet in that story, you know, there's the father and, you know, God, if he's the father, he's still alive. So. So the whole, like, principle of primogeniture, while that may have been alive and well in the ancient world with the ancient n family, doesn't really quite fit the story of Adam and Eve. And most importantly, what do we see throughout Scripture when it comes to the firstborn? Oftentimes, God overturns the priority of the firstborn, you know, all throughout the book of Genesis, look at Jose, Joseph, I mean, Isaac and the patriarchs and King David, you know, the lastborn. And so if the firstborn has some sort of authoritative status, why is God so fond of overturning that principle? All throughout Scripture, you know, the last Adam is better than the first Adam. So there are still a couple references in the New testament. Paul in 1st Corinthians 11, 8, 9 alludes to the creation account, and he seems to ascribe some kind of priority to Adam. And then in first Timothy 2, 13 and 14 is another passage. So I kind of held off.
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Lecrae
Yeah.
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Dr. Preston Sprinkle
Dealing with Paul's interpretation of Genesis until I got to those passages, which I do. And so I just want to see, you know, based on Genesis 1 to 3, is there. Are there credible arguments for Adam being authority, being in authority over his wife? And does that ascribe authority to all men or not all men, but, you know, allow only men to be in authority for the rest of Scripture I just. I just didn't see the argument holding a lot of way. I used to. I used to take it just like, yeah, he's created first, so he must be the, you know, have priority. But.
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Lecrae
Well, then, you know, what. What I always. Well, I never saw the church that I became a Christian in and started journeying with Jesus through was, you know, have complementarian, very strong, conservative views on things. And I didn't ask a lot of questions, you know, and in one. One particular, like, there were so many scriptures, and. And. And I started having questions, and I went to a different church, and then I started like, wait, this doesn't line up with what they said. And they. Yeah, and then I. I felt, like, torn in this weird place. But there was some stuff that was already embedded in my mind about this, so it wasn't even a question. And I. And I was tired of people giving me cultural answers. I wanted, like, biblical answers. And one of the scriptures that I kept coming back to was in First Corinthians, like, when it's like, hey, man was not made for the woman, but the woman for the man. So the angels are watching. You guys better get this together. And I was like.
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Dr. Preston Sprinkle
And cover your heads while you're at it. Yeah, cover your heads.
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Lecrae
So in my mind, I was like, there's no debate.
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Dr. Preston Sprinkle
Yeah.
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Lecrae
It says, they're made for us. We're not made for them. I was like, how do you get around that? And I've never. One thing, I mean, you said in the book is like, hey, let's just be real. This is a hard passage.
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Dr. Preston Sprinkle
The hardest passage I've ever worked through in Paul, for sure.
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Lecrae
Yeah. So, like, if I'm a person, which I was a person who's sitting there saying, this is what the scripture says. How do you wrestle with that?
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Dr. Preston Sprinkle
Yeah, well, again, I, you know, I. I just want to go where the text leads. So if it. If it is saying what it seems to say in those verses, you know, man wasn't created for woman, but a woman for man. It's like, well, then God said it. I believe it, you know.
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Lecrae
Yeah.
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Dr. Preston Sprinkle
But man, once you start working through that passage, it is. It is so difficult. In fact, it's so difficult. Some scholars say Paul didn't even write this because it's so convoluted. The logic doesn't really make sense, is his logical deductions don't really make sense. And so I spent. I spent so much time in that passage. It went through that. That chapter on First Corinthians 11. I probably had 15 drafts on it, man. Wow. Rewriting, rewriting, studying, sending it out to scholars and then get, you know, push back and. All right, I gotta, you know, think through this. So here. Here's the key, I think, with that passage. And again, whatever I say about First Corinthians 11, it's with an open hand.
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Lecrae
Okay.
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Dr. Preston Sprinkle
The passage Paul's argument, you know, begins in. If you have, you know, if you're listening or watching, and you should open your Bible so you can kind of see what I'm saying. But, like, it begins in kind of verse two, verse three. And his argument goes all the way to. Well, it goes all the way to, like, verse 16. But verses 11 and 12 is really profound because prior to that, he seems to invest all this, like, priority in the man. You know, woman's created for man, not man for woman, blah, blah, blah. But then in verse 11, he transitions and says, however, in the Lord. And then he flips the whole thing around. Read verses 11 and 12. He says, you know, man didn't come. Wait, women didn't come through a man, but man through a woman. And makes this counter argument that, like, no, actually, you know, when you. Man is created first. But also every man was born of a woman. And that, however, in the Lord means that those two verses are giving an in the Lord perspective, which is some kind of contrast to what he was saying before. So I think what he's doing in that passage, again, I'm not the only one to say this, but it's. It's. I think the best way to read the passage is he is making. At the beginning of his argument, he's making an argument for why women should wear head coverings, which was a sign of marital status. So if a married woman was prophesying and praying in church, which they were without a head covering, it's almost like she's saying, like, she's looking to have an affair or something. That. That would be the cultural signal there. And so Paul wants to make an argument based on creation that, no, no women, you need to cover your heads. You need to have honor and respect for your husbands. However, in the Lord, we're all mutual. So he almost gives, like, a creation, new creation perspective there. So I think he's telling people, honor the cultural signals that you're in, that you're living in. But remember, in Christ, there is a mutuality here. It would be similar to. I mean, you know, all analogies break down. But like, if a missionary was planning churches in. In. In Saudi Arabia, and he starts you know, people start coming to Christ and, and the women start throwing off their burkas. You know, I think Paul would say, no, no, no. Like, let's not, let's not just disrupt the culture so radically. Keep your head coverings on. Even though those head coverings signaled like, I'm submitting to my husband, you know, he's my authority. And then Paul or the church planner might say, well, you know, in the Lord, the cultural signals that these are sending, you know, your, your, your value in Christ transcends that. But let's honor the cultural context you're in, so.
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Lecrae
All right, I hate to interrupt y', all, but listen, I'm going to tell you guys a secret. This is a legitimate secret. This is advocacy. All right, pay attention. When my energy drops from running around like a chicken with my head cut off, it's usually not sleep or coffee, it's hydration. So I legitimately keep drip drop on hand. And what drip drop is, it's a doctor developed fast hydration with science based formulas that deliver three times the electrolytes of leading sports drinks. So you're actually going to feel the difference. It's trusted by firefighters, medical professionals, over 90% of top college and pro sports teams. And Lecrae, they also just dropped zero sugar plus. So that's six key electrolytes, 15 essential vitamins and nutrients, and no sugar or artificial sweeteners. It is a part of my daily routine. Not just my workouts, but long days, travel days, podcast days. I need it for mental clarity. And right now, you can get 20% off your first order@dripdrop.com with promo code LECRAE. That's dripdrop.com promo code LECRAE. Get you some. Okay, I would like to talk to a very specific group of people for a second. There are believers out there who love God, read their Bible, go to church, and still feel trapped by unwanted intrusive thoughts. And a lot of them think, something's got to be wrong with my faith. But it might not be a faith issue at all. It might be ocd. Religious ocd, which is also called scrupulosity, can look like constantly wondering, did I pray right? Do I need to start over? Am I making God mad? What thought did I just have? What popped in my head? And people are carrying guilt for years because they don't realize that this is a treatable mental health condition condition. And so that's where no CD comes in. No CD is the world's leading OCD treatment provider. All their licensed therapists are trained in erp, or Exposure and Response Prevention therapy, which is the most effective treatment for ocd. No CD therapists deeply understand ocd, so they know that these thoughts don't mean anything about you. In live virtual sessions, they'll help you break free from OCD's grip while honoring your faith so you can get better back to focusing on what matters most. No CD is covered by insurance for over 155 million Americans, and they provide support between sessions, so you are never alone. If you think you might be struggling with religious OCD, don't wait. Head over to nocd.com to book a free 15 minute call with their team today and start reclaiming your faith from OCD. NOCD.com N O C D.com yeah, yeah, I love that vantage point in my mind. It's all, it's like, hey, ladies, here's the thing. Let's not disrupt the whole culture. I want you guys to still move with the sense of honor and respect at the same time. In Christ, there's no male or female, no Jew or gentile, right? But also, let me roll the dice real quick and throw some angels in there. I don't know what the heck is
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Dr. Preston Sprinkle
going on, but there's some angels watching.
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Lecrae
So I'm like, what? Help me God, what? So I, and I, and let me just say this, this is why I appreciate you. Because in our society, there's so much discrepancy and confusion around men and women, around gender, around sexuality and people. I think there's a lot of fear of playing with these gray areas because of the cultural implications, right? Like what, what the word feminist means carries so much like weight in circles that it's like, this is feminism. But there's so many words that don't fully hold who we are. And, and even when you say egalitarian or complementarian, like, and you, you alluded to that in the book, like, they're not all the same in this. Different views on, in different spectrums. And so like, if someone were to say egalitarian or complementarian or if someone, I guess, theology for dummies. For people who are like, can women preach or can they not preach? Are men in control? Are they not in control? Like, is patriarchy right? Is it wrong? Like, what do you say to them? Just like, if they're like, I don't know anything about this, I'm just an average church, go. Or how do you walk them through that?
- [24:48]
Dr. Preston Sprinkle
Well, I would say go back to the text of scripture and, and, and patiently, you know, look at how God views men and women. You know, I, yeah, with the terms egalitarian, complementarian. No, no term is really perfect. And all, they all have their pros and cons, you know, like, because egalitarians are very modern, very secular concept. And what I don't want to suggest is that men and women are the same. That is not God created is different. Men and women are, are biologically different. And those differences extend to, you know, different things of personality or intuition and so on. And so I don't want to erase differences for the sake of quote unquote equality or something. And that's what some, maybe secular versions of egalitarianism might try to do. So I don't, I don't, I don't want to do that. I want to honor the difference. The term complementarian is, is good. It's a modern term too. But a lot of egalitarians who believe all leadership positions are open to men and women alike will say, well, we believe in the complementarity of the sexes. So how do you get off, you know, taking this term as if we don't believe in the complementarity of the sexes? So that, that's where the terminology can be, can be tricky. So if you would just want my conclusion. Well, I mean, you know, read the book. But I'm, I, and I can't tell you how many people who got an early copy of the book who said, I just jumped right to your conclusion. Like, no, don't do that. Enjoy the journey. Like, it's not about where I land so much as what does the text say. And I could have gotten, oh, you
- [26:27]
Lecrae
don't have to tell us. You're just fine, save it.
- [26:29]
Dr. Preston Sprinkle
I can tell you. Okay, well, yeah, you asked me the question, I'll answer. I mean, yeah, I, I, I, based on the Bible, A, a thorough patient study of the Bible. I do land on a position. I think all leadership positions, including teaching and preaching, are available to qualified, gifted men and women alike. Wasn't. I did not begin with that conclusion. I got there because of my study of Scripture. I mean I was raised in a very, yeah, John MacArthur style complementarian. So that's like women don't drive, they don't work. I mean, literally, like so, yeah, yeah. So I, I, I, I, I'm very familiar with that viewpoint. I, I respect people who hold that view as long as it' in, in the interpretation of the Scriptures.
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Lecrae
I'm not going to lie. I kind of figured you would go there from the title. Some people don't know yeah. Who that woman is. But I was like, you know, that's.
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Dr. Preston Sprinkle
Yeah.
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Lecrae
It's like, is she an apostle? Is she not an apostle? Because if she's an apostle, if you're bringing it up, you're wondering. And so.
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Dr. Preston Sprinkle
Oh, that's good.
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Lecrae
That's. You know, I, I thought that you do a good job of breaking down, like, some of these, these ideas. And, you know, you, you. There's concepts of like, gender and gender identity and, you know, sexual identity. And like, some people don't know what these terms are, but I think a lot of people, a lot of us do.
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Dr. Preston Sprinkle
Yeah.
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Lecrae
But, you know, you can often feel when you're scrolling on social media or whatnot, like you're just behind. I remember there was a young lady, this is years ago, and I had a opinion on something. She was like, I don't want to hear an opinion from a cisgendered male. And I was like, I don't, I don't. I don't even know what a cisgender is. I don't. I'm lost. And, you know, you just feel so behind. And like, how do I catch up and keep up with these terms? It's easier to just check out. Do you keep up or do you, like, abide by. And do you expect. Do Christians need to.
- [28:32]
Dr. Preston Sprinkle
That's a great question. So now we're back to more the sexuality, gender conversation. And yeah, as part of my, my work, I'm trying to understand where culture's at on this. Like any good missionary, you want to understand culture, understand what people mean by term so that you can communicate to people. So the biggest, I guess the biggest thing to note in the gender conversation when it comes to gender and sexuality is that a lot of people use the term sex and gender to refer to different aspects of the human experience. Sex is our biological sex. It's innate, unchangeable. Sometimes people use gender as. To describe our psychological, social, and cultural aspects of being male or female, not simply the biological reality. And honestly, when you, when you start defining gender that way, you get into a lot of kind of cultural stereotypes to where, like, if a. Wearing a dress is a female gender expression, you know. Well, yeah, in America, in, in the Polynesian Islands, you know, you were, I've been to Samoa. I wore a skirt. You know, I preached in a skirt. It wasn't a skirt. It was lava. Lava. But yeah, so you get into a lot of these kind of stereotypes and people start defining gender according to kind of like the, the typical ways in which men and women Act. So gender identity. When people say, my gender identity is Fill in the blank, that refers to someone's internal sense of who they are, not their biological reality of who they are. Now, I don't. I think biological sex should determine our identity. It's stamped upon us by God. I think biological sex is significant for human identity. So I don't. I don't agree with. I mean, I just. I don't think it's biblically justified to, like, have a gender identity that's different than what your biological sex is. But I don't want to go about that in an angry, hostile way. You know, I want to be able to listen to people understand. I always. I always want to understand before I refute.
- [30:36]
Lecrae
Yeah.
- [30:36]
Dr. Preston Sprinkle
So a lot of patient curiosity, listening to what people are saying, and then, you know, you can agree or disagree, but yeah. Yeah, it can become overwhelming, man, because every. Every day there's a new letter added to the alpha, you know, the. The acronym, and there's a different identity. And it's hard to keep up, man. So I don't. I never want to put pressure on people to feel like they have to keep up with every trend when it comes to sexuality and gender. I. I feel like I have to because of the work that I'm in, and I'm trying to help pastors understand the conversation. So. But it's. Yeah.
- [31:07]
Lecrae
Yep. I'm also curious. My son. And my son, he's about to graduate high school. We went on a college tour. He wants to go to school in Los Angeles, which is outside of the. The south, which is a little more conservative.
- [31:22]
Dr. Preston Sprinkle
That's where I'm from. L. A Man.
- [31:23]
Lecrae
Yeah. So we. So we get to one of the colleges in LA and. And, you know, we go to one, then we go to another, then we go to another, then we go to another. And they kept asking a question at the beginning of every tour as people would introduce themselves. Do you have a preferred pronoun?
- [31:40]
Dr. Preston Sprinkle
Really?
- [31:41]
Lecrae
What's your preferred pronoun? And my son was like, why do they keep asking me this?
- [31:46]
Dr. Preston Sprinkle
What is.
- [31:46]
Lecrae
And I was like, welcome to Los Angeles. You know? But then I was faced with the thought of, like, wait a minute, like, he's gotta navigate. People who have a different preferred pronoun. And I'm curious, from your thought, how would you. How do you approach that? If there's someone that you're like, their biological sex is one thing, but their preferred pronoun is another thing.
- [32:13]
Dr. Preston Sprinkle
Right into the deep end, man. Throw him into the deep end. First of all man. That's, that's a, it's a, it's a lot. It's a more complicated issue than some people who are extremely passionate on. Always use pronouns or never use pronouns. I'm just gonna, I'm gonna say, look, language, we live in a multi religious, multi cultural context, and language is shared social space between people with different worldviews. You know, so people are going to use words differently. They're going to have a different view of human identity, they're going to have different worldviews, and their language might reflect that. And so as a Christians, we're kind of negotiating, okay, when do we meet people where they're at, not because we agree, but just because we're meeting them where they're at. And when do we kind of hunker down and, you know, like, no, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna give an inch with how you're using that word. And so the pronoun debate lives in the midst of that. I've taken the view, you know, in, in many cases I would use someone's pronoun, whatever they want, as a way of meeting them where they're at, not because I agree with how they're using it.
- [33:32]
Lecrae
Sure.
- [33:33]
Dr. Preston Sprinkle
I think Paul did some of that in Acts 17. Didn't use preferred pronouns. But I mean, he, he used the kind of language in that sermon on Mars Hill. The language and ideas of the quoted.
- [33:42]
Lecrae
Their philosophers.
- [33:43]
Dr. Preston Sprinkle
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
- [33:45]
Lecrae
Which I'm sure he didn't agree with their philosophers.
- [33:49]
Dr. Preston Sprinkle
It's funny, when he was referring to God using the Greek word theos, that was a common word used to apply to the Greco Roman gods, you know, Zeus. And so even there, theos, Paul means Yahweh. They're hearing, you know, Zeus, and he's trying to, he meets them where they're at, trying to steer them away from seeing, you know, Zeus. And so, I mean, you know, I don't get too lost in the weeds. But late l language can be complex. So I, I, in many cases, I will use someone's pronouns as a way of meeting them where they're at, not because I agree with it.
- [34:23]
Lecrae
Sure.
- [34:24]
Dr. Preston Sprinkle
Now if they, if someone says, okay, I'm male, but my gender identity is female and my pronouns match my gender identity. Okay, I don't, I don't, I don't really agree with all that. But okay, that, that's, that's where you're at. I'll, I'll use your pronoun. Now if they said, well, do you agree that I'M actually female. I'm saying, no, no, I don't. Now, in most cases, they, in most cases, if a Christian is using someone's preferred pronoun, they're just kind of blown away that a Christian would, you know, do that, because most Christians are just kind of more hostile and, you know, debating and stuff.
- [35:01]
Lecrae
So, yeah, I think oftentimes we, we feel as if our, our faith is on the line in certain circumstances. And I, I like the gray areas. Right? Because. And I, and I think that's why people tune in, because they, they, they navigate gray areas in real time. I'm navigating this in real time, not just sitting on my couch. Like, what's the right pronoun you use? I'm, like, talking to my son as he's going to la and he has to navigate this. And, you know, similarly, I would say, like, if someone was, hey, my. Well, I was born John, but now I'm Kate, are you gonna call him John?
- [35:36]
Dr. Preston Sprinkle
Right.
- [35:36]
Lecrae
You know, I don't think most people would. If you cornered him, I'll call him Kate, you know, so I do think that's an interesting gray area, and I love that you're willing to peel back layers to get to these, like, why you would do this versus just. Well, I think I do it because of this. It's like, well, here's my why. And I mean, you know, I know you because you've talked about a lot of, you know, gender identity and things, but you look at it from an ancient Near Eastern perspective and a biblical perspective. What, what do we not understand about homosexuality as it was practiced in the ancient world? Like, what don't we get? You know, like, we, you know, there's a Greco Roman world that Jesus lived in. What are we not seeing
- [36:36]
Dr. Preston Sprinkle
homosexuality in the ancient world? And we have to almost understand three different contexts. The kind of ancient near east, then the Greek world, and then the Roman world, because they all had kind of different views on it. But it was, it was, it was fairly wide, widespread. It was not uncommon in, for instance, in Greek culture. And in Roman culture, to some extent, there was a practice called pederasty, where an older man would, who's married, you know, would have sexual relations with a teenage boy as part of, like, his education. You know, you do this for me and I'll teach you philosophy. And in the Roman world, they were down with that as long as the, the younger boy wasn't a citizen. So they had this kind of, like, social hierarchy that needed to be maintained between not to get Too graphic. But the active and passive partner you had, it was not uncommon for a master to abuse his male slave, you know, same sex slave. So there was a lot of domination, a lot of abuse that was kind of underlying same sex sexual relationships back then. But she also did have. And this is where some people say, oh, yeah, see, the Bible is only prohibiting kind of these abusive kinds of same sex relationships. They weren't even referring to monogamous, consensual adult relationships. But if you do even more research, you realize. Well, they also did have consensual same sex relationships too, especially among women. In fact, among women, it was almost, it was typically adult consenting relationships and sometimes they were even referred to as marriages. They couldn't legally be married, but it was, it was very consensual. And so when the Bible, in five different passages. Yeah. Prohibit same sex relationships in Leviticus 18:20, Romans 1, 1st Corinthians 6 and 1st Timothy 1. It uses the language of mutuality. Like, like Romans 1 doesn't say, you know, older men don't have sex with younger boys. It just males and females. It uses generic creation categories. So all that to say. That's a long way of saying the Bible prohibits same sex relationships not because of age differences or power differences, but because it goes against God's created design order. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [39:07]
Lecrae
So it's like you ask. It's like you just walk in a room and like with a grenade strapped around your body with some of the stuff that you, you dive into.
- [39:20]
Dr. Preston Sprinkle
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're willing to talk, man. Yeah. You got me in trouble years ago with that Fourth of July. Oh, I think I retweeted it. Like, oh, this is good. Didn't realize.
- [39:28]
Lecrae
Oh, it was like, oh, yeah. Hey, wait a minute, what's going on here? Yeah, listen, I apologize, but, but I mean, even with, with women's role in the church and leadership, gender and sexuality, these are not speaking in tongues or not to speak in tongues. These are hot topics, but they're not just hot topics within the church, they're hot topics outside the church. What's the role of a woman in homosexuality in culture? Like, how do you, how did this become like one of the. In, in our day and age? Why are these things so within the church, specifically? Like the, the sin that everyone. The. Whenever I would do interviews, you know, they would, though. It's like, hey, do you think, what do you think about homosexuality? You know, like that really mainstream interviews, like in the world is asking what our thoughts are. And then in the Church, there's so much debate. There's debate about what women can do, what women can'. Not as much today as there used to be, but still. And there's debate about, you know, well, wait, what does the Bible say? And then there's, you know, what type are you affirming or are you accepting? Like, what it. Where are you at? And so how do you. How did this come to be from your vantage point?
- [40:59]
Dr. Preston Sprinkle
I don't know, man. I mean, within the church, it seems that it's easy to vilify the sins that we don't struggle with. Right. So because it is a minority struggle, it's easy for it to become such an othered thing. And that's. That's, you know, early on my journey, when I was just getting to know a lot of LGBTQ people, many of whom were raised in a church, that's. That's what they said. They're like, man, I was junior high, high school, started wrestling with stuff, you know, didn't want these unchosen temptations that I was experiencing. But I was hearing the way the church would talk about those others out there and these evil people, and they're after our kids and all this stuff. And so I know so many people, man, that they were like, I'm not going to tell a soul about what I'm wrestling with. And so they slowly slip out the back door of the church, you know, and leave. So I. Culturally. How did this become the litmus test? I don't know, man. I. Yeah, man. You know, could be. For so many decades, throughout the 20th, 20th century, you know, to be gay was just culturally, like, the worst thing that could be. And they got hit hard by. By the Moral Majority and the religious right in the 80s and 90s and, you know, even before that. And I think now that the LGBT community has a lot of cultural power. I think now it's kind of like, I think they may be using that in the same way that the church, when the church had more power, was kind of abusing them with it, you know, and so now there's kind of a, you know, pendulum swing. And so maybe that's why it's the litmus test, because the church and others kind of made this the worst kind of person you could be. And so, I don't know, man. Yeah, it's. It's tough.
- [42:48]
Lecrae
What do we do? Like, I've heard great Christian perspectives on, you know, homosexuality. I've heard, like, Tim Keller said something a long time ago where he said. He said, if I was in the ancient world, and I had feelings for the same sex, it would. Wouldn't be my identity. It'd be like, yeah, this is what I felt. Right. But also, I could ax somebody, I could murder them as a warrior, and it wouldn't be a big deal. It's like my feelings are, you know, like, oh, those are feelings moving along. And me, my identity was a killer, was a warrior. And now in our generation or our era, it's like my feelings for somebody's my identity. And to murder someone is like, that's terrible. You know, it's like the inverse. But when. I guess I'm curious, like, when did our sexual proclivity or preference become merged with identity? Like, how do you think that happened?
- [43:57]
Dr. Preston Sprinkle
So I'm not the expert on. On kind of the cultural history of it, but I've read a little bit. I think it. I think Carl Truman has got a book on. On tracing the history of this. So I think it maybe even goes back to the 19th century as a slow. A slow move. And especially in the mid 20th century, where identity became more. Much more. Instead of your objective communal identity, it became a very subjective, individualistic identity that you can kind of, you know, look in the mirror and figure out who you are rather than embracing the objective state of who you are. And that. That's kind of woven into the fabric of American individualism in. In our post Enlightenment period. Postmodernism, you know, plays. Plays a role in that. But, yeah, yeah, I'm not. I'm not.
- [44:48]
Lecrae
No, no.
- [44:49]
Dr. Preston Sprinkle
I would encourage people to go read people who've done the history, but it makes sense. Like, when you look around society, like, especially American or Western society, it's so subjective and individualistic where if you go, you know, you go to the. Go to the east, go to the Asian countries, and, you know, it's much more communal. It's much more, you know, your. Your family status. Right. Or what community are you a part of? Like, that is your identity.
- [45:12]
Lecrae
Yeah. So hold on, let me take a break for a second, y', all, because this is a great conversation, and it's gonna continue to be great. Actually. I'm excited for you to hear the rest of this conversation, but I wanted to interrupt you because interruptions are a part of regular life, and I get interrupted all the time in my household. I run a household. I got kids, I got this family. And, you know, you can have a family plan, but you're gonna still have to wrangle with the chaos. And does your household have a plan for protecting Your family's financial future in case something unexpected happens. And if not, that's where fabric can help. So life insurance is one of those things that nobody wants to think about, nobody wants to talk about, but it's actually extremely important. And having term life insurance. A term life insurance policy to be exact, means if something unexpected expected happens and you're not there to provide for your family, they'll still have some financial protection. So Fabric by Gerber Life makes that very easy because time is this funny thing, it's very limited and we keep putting things off until later. I don't know why we do that. So if you've been putting off life insurance, I need you to check out fabric and make it fast and easy for you to check it off your list right now. All right? Fabric by Gerber Life is term life insurance you can get done today. It's made for busy parents like you all online on your schedule, right from your couch. You can be covered in under 10 minutes with no health exam required. If you got kids, especially if you're young and healthy, it's time to lock in low rates. Even if you have life insurance through your employer, it may not offer enough protection for your family and it may not follow you if you leave your job. Fabric has flexible, high quality policies that fit your family and your budget like a million dollars in coverage for less than a dollar a day. And Fabric has partnered with Gerber Life, trusted by millions of families like yours for over 50 years. There is no risk. There's a 30 day money back guarantee and you can cancel anytime. All right. They have over 19005 star reviews on Trustpilot with a rating of excellent. Fabric also has free digital wills, tools to invest in your kids future and a whole lot more. And all this is done right from your phone. Now I know you got interrupted because that's what life does. We don't want your family's life getting interrupted without having term life insurance. So join thousands of parents who trust fabric to help protect their family. Apply today in just minutes@meetfabric.com LECRAE. That's meetfabric.com LECRAe M E-E-T fabric.com LECRAE policies issued by Western Southern Life Assurance Company not available in certain states. Prices subject to underwriting and health questions. Sorry, I gotta do another interruption because as I'm talking with Preston, it reminds me of how important it is to slow down and to recenter. And that's one of the reasons why Glorify has stayed a part of my daily rhythm. Glorify is the number one Christian daily devotional app. Helps me stay connected to the Lord throughout the entire day and not just in quiet moments, but in real life. Scripture, devotionals, guided prayer, worship playlists, even sleep meditations. It meet you where you are, whether you follow Jesus for years or you're just now exploring your faith. If you want to create space for God in your everyday life. Listeners get full Access for just $29.99 for the entire year. It's Glorify's lowest price ever. It's at glorify D app.com Lecrae glorified-app.com Lecrae what do you say? Like I'm ping ponging a little bit like the woman who says, well, I grew up in this church and I'm in this marriage now and I've read this and this is how we've been. But I feel a freedom but, but I live in a patriarchal home where my husband says, you know, he's above me and I'm under his authority and I have to do what he says. And this is how I've always been raised. What do you tell her
- [49:16]
Dr. Preston Sprinkle
you want me to mansplain?
- [49:18]
Lecrae
Well, I mean, how do you encourage her?
- [49:21]
Dr. Preston Sprinkle
I guess I would say, well, yeah, take, yeah, let me first of all acknowledge, man, that's a tough situation. And I don't, I don't pretend to know how that feels or how to go about that, you know, so I do, I do want to acknowledge that I'm about to maybe possibly mansplain. I don't intend it that way. You know, as you're asking the question, it made me think of like probably a lot of Christian women in the first century, you know, especially a woman that maybe came to Christ and her husband didn't. He's still stuck in this very patriarchal view. And this convert, this Christian convert is now realizing in Christ there's neither male and female, you know, and we're all one in Christ. And first Peter 3 even talks about this, right? The wife of a, who's married a non believing husband, he tells her to respect him and submit to him and don't, don't be belligerent and, and you know, be, be a, be a good and faithful wife and, or even First Corinthians 7, Paul tells several different people, you know, if you can seek freedom, then do it, but until you can seek to be faithful in the state that you're in. So I wonder, I just wonder. I'm thinking out loud I wonder if some of those principles could apply to this situation. So, yeah, I would just say, man, yeah. I mean, seek the Lord, pray, depend on him, and. And realize that whatever amount of suffering that that situation might entail, like, Jesus not only knows that suffering from a distance, but he embodied it and embraced it. And. Yeah, but. Yeah, that's. That's.
- [51:07]
Lecrae
I'm sure you get questions all the time where people are, you know, they're wrestling through things. That's kind of what made me think of that is because people are in the midst of their battle, and you're like, you know, I know sometimes you talk about what's missiological, and I think there's a difference between a missiologist and a missionary. Like, some people study what it means to do this. Some people, like, are in it. And I feel like you're in it and you're studying. You know, you're kind of doing both. But when people ask you these tough questions, like, if that woman were to say, well, what do I do? Or, you know, like, I'm curious, how do you process that? Like, if someone were to come to you and say, hey, did God make me gay? Like, how do you navigate that?
- [51:56]
Dr. Preston Sprinkle
I always begin with questions, curiosity, get to know the person. You know, that's a tough. Did God make me gay? I want to hear this story that is the iceberg underneath the. The waters. What. What has led to that question? And I've had people ask me that question a lot. And, you know, a lot of the stories are like, well, you know, I grew up in a church, heard being gay is the worst thing you can possibly be. And all of a sudden, through puberty, started getting these unwanted desires. And, like, one friend of mine, gosh, he. He. You know, that was his situation. Raised in a conservative context, heard from his parents that the worst thing that could ever happen is to be gay. And sure enough, he ends up experiencing unwanted attractions. You know, and at 15, he went into his dad's bedroom in the middle of the night, took out his dad's gun, and went in and was gonna. Was gonna end his life. Because he's like, it's better to be dead than to be gay in the church. And luckily, he got a call from somebody that said out of nowhere, like, hey, put down the gun. It was radical, dude. Yeah. And really good friend of mine, and he's a pastor now, dude. He's married to a woman, still has these temptations. But he just needed to hear, man, you. You're. Whatever you're going through you're loved by God and, but you think about that like, if that kid, my friend, if it went back in time, you know, did God make me this way? There's a stage, there's a deep story there that I don't want to skip over that story to give a thin answer to a really thick question. So I can give you the intellectual, the data, unlike nature, nurture, and what does the Bible say about human nature? And you know, there's, there's scientific and theological answers to that question. But sometimes, a lot of times I want to hold back on being the scholar and giving the answer, whatever, and just kind of be a, be a friend in the moment and really understand where they're, where they're coming from. So, yeah, a lot of curiosity, a lot of question asking, you know, so that they know, like, I care about you as a person, not just. I'm not just the Bible answer man or something trying to answer to your question.
- [54:02]
Lecrae
So, yeah, I've, I've, I've caught a lot of flack for what people would say. I'm dancing around it instead of. And for me, I'm like, I'm trying to be gracious and trying to hear the full story and like, just come out against it. Just say this, just say that. And I guess for me, I'm okay with loving the person in front of me and trying to make sure that their story's heard. But then I'll get question from some people like Lecrae just said, is homosexuality a sin? Is same sex attraction a sin? Yes or no? And it's hard because I know what they're, what they're asking. Yeah, but, but they don't know what they're asking.
- [54:55]
Dr. Preston Sprinkle
Yeah.
- [54:56]
Lecrae
You know what I mean? So, yeah, can you unpack that? Because I know you're way better at this than I am. Like, if someone's saying, hey, is same sex attraction sin? Yes or no? Like what? How do you walk them through what they're asking?
- [55:10]
Dr. Preston Sprinkle
Yeah, I'm like you, man. I give you the same stuff. And I just despise again, giving thin answers to thick questions or giving yes or no when we're dealing with complex stuff. And it is not, it is not because I'm afraid to say what I believe. I've written many books on controversial stuff saying exactly what I believe.
- [55:34]
Lecrae
You just did it.
- [55:35]
Dr. Preston Sprinkle
I just did it. Yeah. Yeah. So that, that is, there's, I mean, if someone says you're scared to like, be, have a controversial view, I'm like, come on, dude. Yeah, but I just. We have so much that in society, don't we? Like, sound bite, yes or no, People yelling and screaming at each other. Like, look around. Like, are we, are we doing well in society with our Twitter size, you know, activism? And so I, I just think we need less of that. We need more thoughtfulness, more long form conversations, more listening, more curiosity. And it's a false dichotomy to say if we have all these conversations, we're gonna lack conviction. It's like, no, you actually develop a more thoughtful conviction when you spend time truly trying to understand a viewpoint that you say you disagree with. So people get annoyed. But when they ask me those, you know, yes or no questions, I. I asked them to define their terms. First of all, it's homosexuality a sin. I'm like, what do you mean by that? You know what I mean? I'm like, I mean, I actually don't. Like, Like, I've got a friend who is gay, he's attracted to the same sex, and he, he's so devoted to Jesus Christ that he's committed to a life of celibacy. I've got several friends that are doing this. You know, he wakes up every day and he literally walks with Jesus. Like, goes on walks and talks and listens to Jesus. He wakes up not with a spouse next to him, but with Jesus next to him. And he's like, I need to find my daily satisfaction in my Lord Jesus Christ. And I'm going to withhold marriage, romance. I'm going to withhold touching another human being romantically, because out of allegiance to Jesus, I believe this is what faithfulness looks like. He's attracted to the same sex. So let's go back to your question. Homosexuality. Well, he's part of that category. Homosexuality. Is he in sin? If he's in sin, then we're all screwed, man. Because I don't wake up with that kind of raging passion to follow Jesus like he does. So, just that, like, no, it's not a simple question. Like, is. Is married? Did. Did God design marriage to be between a man and woman? Yeah. Yeah. Is sex outside of that bond sin? Yes, I believe it is. But when you use these broad brush terms and stuff, like, and I just don't like when people demand, like they're demanding how the conversation is gonna go. I'm not gonna talk to you for a long time. I want a quick answer. I'm like, no. Who? You don't get to call the shots, man. So.
- [57:55]
Lecrae
Oh, I'm stealing that. That's good. Actually, I'm still in that. Yeah. You know, here he is dancing around it. Matter of fact, this would be a good trailer pitch. Like, if I just ask you, and I just say, Preston, is homosexuality a sin? Yes or no? Cliffhanger. Cliffhanger. No.
- [58:22]
Dr. Preston Sprinkle
Yeah.
- [58:23]
Lecrae
I appreciate that, man. You're just thoughtful, nuanced, careful, loving. And I think that's what we need more of. And that's what Jesus got cornered for, was being thoughtful, nuanced, caring. It's like, what are you doing talking to the Samaritan woman? Like, you're breaking a lot of rules right now, but what's the end goal of that conversation?
- [58:45]
Dr. Preston Sprinkle
Yeah, he did and he didn't. He didn't give responses to those. Yes or no. Is it this or is it that? Didn't he usually. I don't know the stat on it, but then he, like, most of the time, like, answer a question with a question.
- [58:55]
Lecrae
Yeah, Ramez, I believe I don't forget the term, but it's a question to a question. When you. You know, like, this is. Oh, yeah. When people say, like, you know, the lgbtq, they put it all together, and some people struggle with that. Like, I say, wait a minute. Why are we all in one big category? You know, it's like, black people. Are we a monolith? Or, you know, I guess you probably know better than I would, but identity wise, like, all those terms and people being lumped together does that. Like, are we. Are we moving? I guess, like, do we understand what we're. Are we just kind of following suit and respecting them by using that, like, lgbtq or. I don't know, are. Is there. Are we following suit? Is it respectful? Or, you know, and. And because they're so different, and I don't. There's a couple terms in there. I don't even know what the differences are. So I don't even. Like lg. Tb. Like, I don't know. I guess queer is the one I'm a little bit.
- [60:15]
Dr. Preston Sprinkle
Yeah, the queer can be a. It's a pretty broad category, and it's usually used by younger people. A lot of older gay or lesbian people don't prefer that term. They grew up in the 80s and we played smear. The queer. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was a derogatory term, but as often happens in oppressed minority groups, they reclaim derogatory terms and use them in a positive way as a counter reaction. So I think queer has taken on that. But queer, you know, so many different people can use the term queer. It could refer to their sexuality, their Their gender expression or just some people. Yeah, people use it in so, such a different way. So it's kind of a, a broader, broader term. But I, I don't actually. Yeah, I don't think, I don't think the acronym is helpful in most contexts because there's so much diversity within those identities and terms. I mean, even, like, there's a lot of tension today. People don't often realize this between the T's and the L's, you know, and I'm not going to recommend Dave Chappelle's skit on this. I did not. Lecrae recommended that. So if you want to check that out. But, but, I mean, he got, you
- [61:28]
Lecrae
know,
- [61:30]
Dr. Preston Sprinkle
there's tension there because a lot of, I mean, if you have a say a trans woman as a biological man who is identifying as a woman and can. That can kind of be offensive to some lesbians, especially if they have strong feminist leanings where it's like, wait, who. Yeah, you didn't grow up going through a period in, in junior high. You didn't get sexually assaulted in, in high school by. You didn't. You didn't. You don't walk around, you didn't walk around your life out of fear in society because of my female body. You don't just get to all of a sudden say you're. This is. This is not me. This is how a lot of lesbians will react. So there's a whole movement, like in the UK called Get the L Out, like where lesbians are the same. We're not part of this, you know, And a lot of older gay people I know, know, are not down with some of the trans ideology and where the movement's gone post Virgo fell. And so there's, there's tensions. You know, LGBTQ is about as monolithic as saying, like Baptists, you know, it's like, well, American or Southern or, you know. So, yeah, I, I think nobody is lgbtq. They might be part of that identity or experience, but there's enough differences and incongruencies within that.
- [62:44]
Lecrae
So I'm curious in your studies and in your working with people, and I'm just curious. You may not know the answer, and I'm not asking you to pull one out of thin air, but I'm curious. Oftentimes you'll see this spectrum, right, of people in the LGBTQ community where there's a guy who has same sex attraction and that's it. He's like, he's what we would see functioning in society as the typical man. But he has same sex attraction. He's attracted to men. But then you have on the other side a guy who's like, I was always a woman inside, and I want a man. Like, is, is it a spectrum? Are they the same? Like, what's, what do. In your experience, are you, are you. The stories and encounters that you've had,
- [63:42]
Dr. Preston Sprinkle
there's so much diversity, man. I mean, you've met. If I've met nine different people, identify as LGBT or Q or, you know, I'll have 10 different perspectives on what that means. You know, even the a person who identifies as transgender, you know, some might say I was born in the wrong body. Another one might say, well, that's philosophically impossible. My body is me. I just have gender dysphoria. And when I cross dress or transition, it goes away. So it's more of a meta. It's not so much even like a social statement. It's more of just, I'm suffering this, fix that, deal with it kind of thing. Other people are like, I wasn't born in the wrong body, but yeah, I feel like a woman on the inside. Which is, again, even that some feminist activists are going to say, being a woman isn't an inside feeling, it's an object of reality. You know, like it's. It is, by definition, is an embodied state. That's what woman means, you know, so. So there's so much diversity there. And that's where, if you just read this conversation or look at it through a political lens, all you're going to see are these polarized, like, narrow perspectives of people attacking the other side by using the worst example of the view that they're disagreeing with. And I think we're all prone to that. But, man, when you start talking to people, you realize, like, so much, so much diversity.
- [65:07]
Lecrae
Yes.
- [65:08]
Dr. Preston Sprinkle
Within people's experiences.
- [65:10]
Lecrae
Yeah. I have family members who are like, I don't want to be identified by my sexuality. I'd actually, I feel more comfortable being identified by my race. And then I have other family members who are like, absolutely, I don't want to be identified by my sexuality. And I was like, I'm like, but they're both, you know, homosexual people. And so it's kind of like I'm looking at a spectrum of it from the outside. But a lot of times people don't get to ask these questions or have these conversations. We only have the politicized perspective. And I guess you're somebody who does the research nuance. You're in these communities. Some people would say, like, you're so close to it, you're blinded, right? Like, oh, you're just, you're so close to it, you're getting swept away. And your perspective just, man, just. This is what the Bible says. Like, how, how do you talk to people who are like, this is what I know what I've heard, and it's black and white, and you're dancing. Like, how have you not, not, not. What do you say to them? How have you dealt with that personally? I'm curious.
- [66:24]
Dr. Preston Sprinkle
That's a good question. Probably not really. Well, you're so close to it, you're blinded. I mean, again, my primary passion and drive and my default is the Bible. Put me in my room, my office, and I'd rather study the Bible all day than talk to people. I'm kind of introverted. Like, I'm not. Like, it was pushing me out of my comfort zone to, to humanize this conversation. And that really did reshape how. I didn't reshape my theology, but it reshaped how I approach it. So I think my, you know, I'm, I'm as black and white as I think the Bible is. I think, I think the definition of marriage in the Bible is a black and white issue. And I still have people online that think I affirm same sex marriage. I'm like, dude, I've read like four books saying, not that, you know, I go read a book. So I think biological sex is how we should identify. I think there's two biological sexes. So I, I, I hold to what would. I don't love the term, but people might consider, you know, conservative theological views or traditional or biblical views. Hopefully.
- [67:28]
Lecrae
Yeah.
- [67:30]
Dr. Preston Sprinkle
But again, going back to your original question of faithfulness of Jesus, I see Jesus embodying such radical kindness towards people who didn't agree. Agree with them. You know, it's fascinating. So Luke 15, verse one, it says that tax collectors and sinners were seeking out Jesus. Like, that's fascinating because we know that Jesus was seeking out tax collectors and sinners like he was going after them. But this one says he was so compelling that they wanted to be around him. So my question to the church is, how many LGBTQ people are seeking out your church, seeking you out because. Not because you have an affirming theology, Jesus did not, but because there was just something about his, his personhood, his kindness, his, his. His desire for relationships that people found that to be utterly compelling.
- [68:19]
Lecrae
So, well, you just preached a sermon with that. You just preached a sermon.
- [68:25]
Dr. Preston Sprinkle
So people accused. So how do I hand you know, people were like, no, you shouldn't do that. I'm like, I just thought, I don't know. I don't like you want me to be like you and just like be like, not you, but like you want me just to be like black and white on everything and you know, be passionate about things that I, you know, that actually have more nuance. And so no, I'm gonna stick as close to the scriptures as I can, as best as I can understand them. I'm gonna love people the best of my ability because I think that's what Jesus did. And if somebody has a problem with that, that's, that's on them, not me.
- [68:55]
Lecrae
So Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for 15amonth plan that I've been enjoying.
- [69:04]
Dr. Preston Sprinkle
It's not just for celebrities.
- [69:05]
Lecrae
So do like I did and have
- [69:07]
Dr. Preston Sprinkle
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- [69:09]
Lecrae
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- [69:10]
Dr. Preston Sprinkle
I'm told it's super easy to do@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment of $45 for three
- [69:17]
Lecrae
month plan equivalent to $15 per month required intro rate first three months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full terms@mintmobile.com I've got Dan Morgan here on the pod. Say hi, Dan. Hey. How's it going today?
- [69:31]
Dr. Preston Sprinkle
It's going good, man.
- [69:33]
Lecrae
Tell us who you are and what you do. I'm Dan Morgan. I'm an attorney and a managing partner at Morgan and Morgan, which is America's largest injury law firm. That's pretty awesome. I think I saw a billboard of yours recently. It said 20 billion won. 20 billion is an insane number. Yeah, 20 billion recovered. It's actually I think somewhere north. Probably closer to 22, 23 after this year. And each year we get bigger and badder and our army grows. So the, the number will hopefully keep getting bigger and bigger as time goes on. Awesome. So how does someone get in contact with Morgan and Morgan? What would I do if I got into an accident? Probably the easiest way is dialing pound law. That's £529 from your cell phone. We are always open. Our call center is always waiting to take your call. 247 365. Wow. Dan Morgan from Morgan and Morgan, America's largest injury law firm. Thanks for coming by the show. Thanks for having me. Visit forthepeople.com for an office near you. What about how do you navigate or wrestle with the reality that you have dedicated a portion of your life, to being a salve, a witness to adding color and love and kindness for the church, to a community of people who. Some of those people reject you. You know, like, how have you. Like, you're. I'm here to serve and to love, but yet you're rejected by the very community.
- [71:04]
Dr. Preston Sprinkle
Yeah.
- [71:05]
Lecrae
You know, how do you deal with that?
- [71:07]
Dr. Preston Sprinkle
Yeah, that can be hard. Yeah. Specifically just to name it. I mean, there's. There's people within the LGBTQ community community that typically comes from ones who identify as Christians, but also affirm same sex marriage. And early on in my journey when I was like, hey, I don't know, you know, I'm just like, I'm studying this out and trying to love people. Well, I think there were some people on that side that were like, oh, yes, he's coming to the. That I was going to end up being affirming. And when I wasn't, I think there was disappointment. And then when I was, contrary to some people's assumptions, pretty outspoken with my theological views on sexuality, you know, that I think the more I was outspoken than some people within that community. Yeah. Were upset, but I, you know, I don't know, I. Going back to the people's stories, like, I'm thinking of one instance where somebody was really, really upset. They said they felt harmed by me, even though it was like, on a video, I was like five states away from it. I'm not gonna do anything new. But they were just harmed by my presence, you know, and they were visibly agitated and. And I just thought, man, what has that person gone through to where just my presence on a video screen was super triggering, and I wasn't even.
- [72:44]
Lecrae
I didn't.
- [72:44]
Dr. Preston Sprinkle
I don't think we talked theology. It was just. They knew my view and I was there on zoom, and I'm like, man, what, what? I probably wouldn't be invited into. Into hearing their story, but if, if I was, I would love to hear, like, maybe somebody that looks like me, talks like me, acts like me, did some really, really, truly harmful things and oppressive things. Like, you don't get to that state unless you've gone through something. So I don't know. I try to be gracious towards people that are, you know, very upset at me for whatever reason. So there's usually a story behind that. But, yeah, I don't know, man. The positive responses I've gotten far outweigh the negative. Like you, man. I mean, it's like, you can. It's tempting to listen to the 5%, 10% that hate your guts, you know, but man, the thousands, in your case, millions of people who have been truly changed by your work. Like, that's. That's gotta be what wakes us up in the morning.
- [73:43]
Lecrae
Yeah. I'm a ping pong back again. So I'm sorry, I'm just.
- [73:49]
Dr. Preston Sprinkle
Add. You got some medication?
- [73:51]
Lecrae
Yeah, I'm ping ponging back, but because I'm also, you know, the. What does understanding that junior could have been an apostle.
- [74:10]
Dr. Preston Sprinkle
Yeah.
- [74:11]
Lecrae
Change for you for, like, what does that do?
- [74:16]
Dr. Preston Sprinkle
Yeah. So I spent a good chunk of. What is it, Chapter five, I think, in the book on this person Junia mentioned in one verse in Scripture, Romans 16:7, Paul's list of greetings where he greets a lot of women as ministry partners. And I. I focus in that chapter on three different women there. Phoebe, Priscilla, and then this, this shadowy figure, Junia. And Paul says, greet Andronicus, the man and Junia who are highly esteemed among the apostles. And there's a big debate about the translation. Is he saying among the apostles as if they are among the. They are apostles or are they highly esteemed to the apostles or in the eyes of the apostles? And this is where, man. I apologies to those of you who aren't into like reading Greek papyri and doing word studies, but I had, I had to. It's a really. This is just one of those things that. It is a very technical discussion of this one Greek phrase and how it's used elsewhere. So I combed through all the literature and debates and looked up this phrase in Greek literature. And. And I do think the better translation by far is that Paul identifies Junia, along with her husband, as apostles and highly esteemed apostles. Then the question is, what kind of apostle? Because you got the 12 apostles. Then you have some others like Paul and, and Paulus in, in the book of Acts. And then you have. There's a couple references in the New Testament to delegates sent out from churches. So epaphroditus in Philippians 2 is called like an apostle, I believe. I'm pretty sure he is. There's another reference in Second Corinthians to apostles of certain churches. So, yeah, these three kind of categories of apostles, the first two are definitely like, authoritative. The third one a delegate sent out. We don't know much about that group. Maybe that's not so much an authoritative position. But the way Paul describes Junia, it just does not. She's not one of the 12. Obviously doesn't make sense that she's highly esteemed among the delegates sent out from churches. That doesn't make sense. So the best interpretation, in my view and the view of many others, is that Paul does call her an apostle in the same. In the same kind of apostle as an Apollos or Paul's kind of unique. He wrote, you know, a good chunk of the New Testament, but. But she is in that kind of apostolic ministry. And what I find so profound, man, is that he says, they were in prison with me, dude. To be in prison in the first century was brutal for a man. Very rare were women thrown in the prison, but when they were, they were thrown into the same cells as men. Oh, wow, dude. So little food, little water. I mean, chains wearing through your skin, diseases, rot, decay. There's a few descriptions of prison in some Greco Roman writers, and it's just. It is as awful as you can imagine. Then put yourself in the shoes of a woman who's in prison with the man. And it says, but then Paul uses here, here's where. Here's what. The nitty gritty of the Greek is so exciting, man. He. He uses the present tense. They are highly esteemed among the apostles. Meaning when she got out of prison, and I don't even want to imagine what she went through there. I mean, you. You can let your minds run. She gets out of prison, she still keeps apostling the church. I want to know what it was like to be in that first house church gathering when Junia pushes open those doors with her body embodying the scars of the gospel. You're trying to tell me she's not going to. You're trying to tell me people are not going to hush up and listen to this courageous woman of the faith. I think that room was silent. I think people were like, oh, my word. Tell us why and how you were able to cling to the supremacy of Jesus, having gone through what you did as a woman. Her female embodiment compounded her suffering and magnified her message.
- [78:54]
Lecrae
From a biblical perspective, I see women. I can see the conversation about women in leadership and in the church, but even outside. And I don't know if you processed this or thought through this, but in every culture around the world, they historically have functioned patriarchally. And so how does what we're seeing and hearing, what do we do with what society has looked like culturally versus what God is saying in scripture, Right? Like, no, is it, you know, like. I mean, obviously there are points in society where you have women who are exercising leadership and authority, but it's typically not been. It's been like, not the Norm. It's the exception, not the rule.
- [79:50]
Dr. Preston Sprinkle
Yeah.
- [79:50]
Lecrae
And. And so when we look at it, it almost would feel like, I don't know, God is saying, yeah, I kind of endorse that. I just let it go, play itself out and just, you know, stamp it, like, yeah. How do you process.
- [80:06]
Dr. Preston Sprinkle
Yeah, that's a big question. And when it comes to, especially the Old Testament, because you have in the, in the Mosaic law, like, lots of laws that just seem like it's reinforcing patriarchy, but most scholars would. Would say that, you know, God was. Was meeting Israel where they're at. He was working. He wasn't creating, but working within this. These patriarchal structures. So it's not like he. He created Israel to be patriarchal in the midst of a society that wasn't. It's like it was just profoundly patriarchal. And actually, if you study the laws and, and even the narratives of the Old Testament in light of the ancient near east context, yes, it's still kind of patriarchal, ancient Israel, but it's, it's an improvement upon the stuff, the laws around them. Like, it's. It's pretty profound. So I think he meets Israel where they're at, embraces or works within the societal norms, improves those to some extent, and I think he slowly moves Israel toward a more fuller ethic, capture in the Sermon on the Mount and the life of Jesus, that, that, that that's the full expression of how God wants us to live, which I think is going to be a. I think it's going to be a blend of, like, I don't think it's going to be challenging to culture. It's going to be countercultural. But there's also going to be some things within culture that do resonate with the faith, I think. I don't think, you know, unless you're, you know, Amish or something, living, you know, just completely detached from culture. I think there is some overlap there, but I do think the Christian community should always have some countercultural feel to it. But that's a great question, man. I, I would need more time to.
- [81:52]
Lecrae
No, I, I'm just. I'm appreciative because I. It's a journey that I have been trying to navigate, you know, and, and for me, having kind of broken free from some of the older, probably
- [82:09]
Dr. Preston Sprinkle
bad
- [82:10]
Lecrae
evangelical spaces that I was being influenced by, not saying everything I learned was bad, but some of the things I learned were not helpful.
- [82:18]
Dr. Preston Sprinkle
I'm.
- [82:18]
Lecrae
I'm trying to parse and understand. Like, wait, did I pick up something? I Shouldn't have picked up here. And what do I. And how do I feel about this? And wait a minute, what's going on here?
- [82:27]
Dr. Preston Sprinkle
Yeah, yeah. Cross reference, deconstruction. You're song.
- [82:32]
Lecrae
Exactly.
- [82:34]
Dr. Preston Sprinkle
My son and I probably listen to that song 50 times in his car. So, so powerful. And I live when you were naming some name. Like, dude, we've had similar journeys, man.
- [82:43]
Lecrae
Yeah.
- [82:44]
Dr. Preston Sprinkle
Wow. Oh, man. Yeah. Not to turn it around, but I imagine being a hip hop artist, I mean, you. You go through this all the time, right? Like, I mean, Christian hip hop is going to have some overlap with. I'm so I'm speaking. I'm getting way over my skis here. But I mean, I mean, that's the world you live in, right? I mean, like, there's resonance with the great. The broader hip hop scene, but also some disagreements.
- [83:05]
Lecrae
Yes, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So. And I. It's like, I appreciate. And I haven't finished the book completely. I'm plowing through it. But I. But it was like, easy to. I was like, oh, my gosh, I'm next, next, next, next. But a lot of it is because there it helps that you're you. You didn't give your conclusion as you're. As you're going through it. So it's like you're really trying to wrestle with this authentically. But then for me personally, I'm like, even in my own marriage, I'm kind of like saying like, I just real. I'm today years old and I'll admit it in front of the world today, years old. After going through this book and processing, I was like, wait a minute. Wash my wife in the water of the word does not at all mean what I thought it meant. It's not even a word. Logos. I felt guilty because I was like, my wife and I don't do Bible studies like we used to, and I'm not discipling her properly. And I'm like, this was liberating in a lot of ways. Not to not love my wife, but I'm like, babe, continue doing the studies that you've been doing and I'll continue doing mine. We'll come together and we'll talk about what God is showing us.
- [84:28]
Dr. Preston Sprinkle
You're cracking me up in your conversation with Beth Moore, saying early on, overhear your wife listen to Beth Moore. And you were like, dang, she's good. And you felt guilty because it was
- [84:37]
Lecrae
like, Beth is killing it in there. Goodness gracious. And I would feel bad. I'd be like, am I supposed to Lie. I'm not supposed to, I'm not supposed
- [84:45]
Dr. Preston Sprinkle
to be allowed to enjoy this.
- [84:46]
Lecrae
Yeah. So it's, it's. Yeah, it's been helpful because I, you know, I've had lots of conversation and I'm not going to lie to you. The one verse. Yeah, that was hanging me up in terms of understanding how men and women relate in leadership and, and whatnot was that First Corinthians 11 verse that was like. I was like, what the heck is this?
- [85:05]
Dr. Preston Sprinkle
Yeah.
- [85:06]
Lecrae
And I was glad to know I'm not the only person who felt like this is a difficult verse. I didn't know that.
- [85:12]
Dr. Preston Sprinkle
So there's even one scholar who says that Paul in that passage is interacting with the perspective of the Corinthians. So you have like a couple verses. Paul's like quoting them, then he's responding, he's quoting them. Because I don't agree with that view, but I could see where somebody would get that. Paul does that throughout Corinthians. He'll quote one of their slogans and then respond to it. But the whole argument in that passage just seems, it's just so dichotomous. Like, it just doesn't. The logical connections don't seem to flow from each other. And I'm not even talking about, like, I'm troubled by, you know, Paul saying, you know, woman came from man, you know, but just, just the logic of the passage is, is difficult. Yeah, yeah.
- [85:52]
Lecrae
It's wild. Even as we're having this conversation that we believe the words of, we believe in the authority of Scripture to the point that we're willing to have this kind of wrestle. Like, there's some people who are just like, it's just men talking. You know what I mean? Like, why is this a big deal? It's like, yeah, he said that. But, oh, well, you're moving on. So I appreciate the work that you put in to just unpack some of these things.
- [86:18]
Dr. Preston Sprinkle
Appreciate it.
- [86:19]
Lecrae
Yeah. I'm grateful for you, man. And I'm appreciative of, of the voice that you are in culture. I'm appreciative for your scholarship because I think there's a lot of well meaning people out there who are very passionate and emotional, but they don't, they're not equipped. And you equip them, you know, with like, I mean, I, even with this book, I'm like, oh, I feel way more equipped. And it's not just emotion. It's not like, I just doesn't seem right or, you know, it's like, well, this is. Why? Because if you look in the scriptures, you know. So, man, I'm. I'm grateful for you. I appreciate you being here, man.
- [86:57]
Dr. Preston Sprinkle
I appreciate it. Thanks for having me on. My. My kids and all their friends are jealous. They're like, wait, how. Wait, you're hanging out with the crab? Like, we're not hanging out. I'm gonna like, why does he want you on this show?
- [87:06]
Lecrae
We can make it happen. Because I love Boise. It's. It's not hard. So you know what I mean? Yeah. Brother, appreciate you. Thank you again for.
- [87:14]
Dr. Preston Sprinkle
Appreciate your work.
- [87:15]
Lecrae
Yeah.