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- [00:00]
Podcast Host (Ad Reader)
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- [00:23]
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- [01:22]
Lecrae
I have been under controversy for years
- [01:27]
Sponsor Voice (Ad Reader)
and the Grammy goes to church clothes.
- [01:29]
Podcast Host (Ad Reader)
Lecrae is losing shows over all this
- [01:31]
Lecrae
and he should with Lecrae.
- [01:33]
Sponsor Voice (Ad Reader)
Four time Grammy winner.
- [01:36]
Lecrae
Trying to reach Lecrae, trying to be just like the woman. What is wrong with Lecrae? You know what? People have real questions about me and my decisions, my character. Let me just address it. Why does it always feel like you
- [01:47]
Josh (Question Asker)
want to distance yourself from cross movement?
- [01:50]
Lecrae
Dang with cross movement. Yeah. All right, let's go there.
- [01:58]
Josh (Question Asker)
As a hip hop and rap lover, there's a part of me that loves seeing you do songs with big rap names like T I and more. Why do songs with them, especially if they rap about God, yet they live a life that doesn't proclaim God.
- [02:11]
Lecrae
I think that man bump it. I'mma just say it. This is the deep end with Lecrae. Okay, well, listen, let's just talk about the elephant in the room, shall we? I have been under controversy for years, right? I don't mean to be a controversial figure, but it seems as if, you know, the rumors get to fly in and people have questions and Opinions and thoughts about your moves and the things that you do. You know, I really kind of understood that when I signed up for this. I didn't understand it when I signed up for this, but once I started making music, it became apparent that as a public figure, you're going to be under scrutiny, and there's going to be questions about you and your decisions and your character on and on. I think I thought it had kind of died down until we at reach records signed 2819 worship. And I saw this controversy bubble up to the surface about myself and Philip Anthony Mitchell partnering. And, you know, he's under the microscope for certain reasons. I'm under the microscope for certain reasons, but people did not like this union, and mostly because of me, mostly because they felt in some way that I would taint the mission and the ministry of 2819. And I thought, wow, you know, what? What is that? And. And I thought, you know what? People have real questions about me and my decisions, my character. And I thought, man, let me just address it. And not the PR answer and not the saving face answer, but people have real criticisms. And I was like, man, what are they? So I didn't want to just assume I knew what they were. I really, sincerely put out a post on Socials and said, hey, if you have criticisms and questions, send them in. And I asked people to send me their voice memos, and I wanted to sincerely answer them. So it's not like I have this prepared statement. It's more. So I'm going to listen to these questions for the first time. You were watching it happen in real time. I'm not going to give you PR answers. I want to be honest. I want to humbly accept the critiques and the criticisms. I want to answer honestly. Honestly and thoroughly. Yeah, I mean, I think people deserve answers, especially if they've got these mounting questions and these mounting concerns. I think it's important for me to address them and be honest, as I can only be. I am a human being who is in the process of growing, submitting my life to the Lord. I don't have it right all the time. I am constantly trying to seek wisdom and be stretched and be grown. And so I'm not sitting up here as some sort of guru. I'm sitting up here as a human being who's saying, man, I am not perfect. I am in the process of being perfected by the Lord. So I asked for grace. Let's jump into this thing. First and foremost. Yeah. 2819. I live in Atlanta. I had Philip Anthony Mitchell on the podcast. Philip and I talked at length after the podcast was over, and we had met before that. And he said, man, Lecrae, I think you're very misunderstood, and why don't you share some of the things you're sharing with me publicly? And I think is a tension of, like, man, I feel like I have. I feel like I've shared so much. I feel like I put it in my book, but obviously you can't address it all, and you can't, like, make people see you in the light of interpersonal connection. And so I think a trust began between us, and that led to relationship, friendship, and then ultimately a partnership with 2819 Worship, whom I love. They remind me a lot of, you know, the unashamed days when I first got into Christian hip hop. And it was just so unadulterated, so pure, so raw and so real. And I wanted to partner with them because of that. That stirred all kinds of controversy. People were online saying that we were Masons, and I'm a Mason, and then there's the fraternity stuff, and Lecrae is a supporter of the fraternities and all of this stuff. And, man, I just feel like people felt as if I was a compromiser and I was going to taint 2819. There was a guy who wrote that we're Masons because I'm covering my eye. And so. And you guys gotta remember, I take a gazillion pictures. A gazillion. It just so happens that they highlight the three where maybe one half of my face is covered or maybe, like, me covering my eye. I don't even know why I would cover my eye, if I'm being honest with you. Maybe there was something where it was like this, or. I honestly don't know. But I can assure you I have never been a Mason. I've never participated in anything Masonic. And I'll be real with you. I have sat down with a. Someone who works in the realm of deliverance and explored that and sat there and said, hey, man, if there's any Masonic anything in my family or my history, I want to renounce and denounce that, because I don't believe it is biblical or godly. And so if that adds any clarity to that, there you go. But all the controversy made me say, man, there's so many things that people have issues with. What are these things? Cause I can't address things I don't know people have.
- [08:31]
Josh (Question Asker)
So my question is this. I've been a fan since the OG don't waste your life days and watching you get as huge as you have in the rap game has been pretty dope to watch. But something has always rubbed me the wrong way as a hip hop and rap lover. There's a part of me that loves seeing you do songs with big rap names like TI And More. But the faith side of me seems a little standoffish to it because I wonder why you'd give a voice to so many people who promote an almost watered down form of Christianity. So my question is why do songs with them especially, especially if they rap about God, yet they live a life that doesn't proclaim God? I'm not going to sit here and say we all do the greatest job proclaiming the gospel daily because we definitely do not. And I also think it's a great opportunity for you to potentially witness to these people. But why give them a voice in a gospel space if they themselves don't live a Christ centered life?
- [09:19]
Lecrae
That's a fair question, Josh. Fair question. And I think Josh is referring to songs that I've done more recently with T.I. and Killer Mike Headphones in Heaven. And I think generally there's two schools of thought. There's one school of thought that, hey, you're a Christian, you have a platform as a Christian to speak about the things of God. What does light and darkness have in common? Do not be unequally yoked with, you know, unbelievers. Why are you putting them on your platform and giving them a voice when this platform is to be used to speak the truths of God? And so I think there's that school of thought, right? There's another school of thought of you're a missionary, you're reaching people and you are engaging in culture and speaking the language of the culture in order to connect with the culture so that they would hear the truth of Jesus. And that's another school of thought. Now I have been on both sides of the spectrum and here's where I land. I can fully understand, like, I mean, I Look at Romans 14 where it says, you know, some people can eat this meat, some people cannot eat this meat. Paul was referring to meat that was used to in temples of idolatry. And these temples were places where all kinds of disgusting things took place. And there was food sacrifices that were dedicated to be sacrificed in these temples. And believers were like, well, this food that's been set aside for temple worship or sold in the market for temple worship, I'm finna buy this and eat it because I know it's nothing but Meat. And even though people use it to sacrifice to demons, it's just meat to me. But there's other people who are like, why would you ever eat that? That is meat that's supposed to be used for demon demonic sacrifice. If you eating that, you are compromising. And Paul says to the people who are eating it, hey, don't eat that in front of them. That's you're causing them to stumble. But he also says to the people who don't eat it, hey, don't judge them because they know there's nothing wrong with it. Now, I get the concept of, like, I don't want to create a stumbling block for people. However, here's the difference of where I'm at with the music. I don't see this as demon meat. It'd be different if it was like listening to secular music, right? Like, hey, you're listening to music that glorifies sin. And if you. And some people say, well, I don't glorify sin when I listen to it, hey, man, just don't listen to that around them, or don't solicit that or don't promote that around them, because to them, it's a stumbling block. What I see this as what the world sees T.I. and Killer Mike as are celebrities, artists who have a voice in society and culture. I see them as people I've known for 10 years, people that I call on the phone and have conversations with, people that I've had extensive conversations with about faith and about God. And a lot of times people are like, hey, you can. You know, they've approached me, hey, let's do something together. Let's do something together. And I think it. It's a weird situation when you're like, I'll sit and meet with you, I'll talk with you, but I'll never work with you because you're. You're a sinner. You're not a believer. That would be weird if I was a plumber or a painter or a home builder, and I was like, ah, can't work with you because you're. You're a sinner. I'm working. I'm creating art, and I'm working with people who don't share my worldview, but we're creating art together. And for me, that is a way in which I can connect with them, a way in which I can serve them, a way in which I can seek to be a light in their life. Now, Josh's question specifically is, why are you giving them platform to give this kind of lukewarm version of God. I don't do that. I never ask non believers or people who are like, wrestling with what they believe to speak on behalf of God or the scriptures. Never. Because I don't want there to be a confusing perspective on who God is and so on and so forth. Now, what I do try to do is find common ground that really does not have a theological perspective. So I knew I lost my cousins, my cousin pj, My cousin Julius. I recently lost my grandmother. I knew that Mike had lost family members. I knew that Tip had lost friends and family members. And I thought, this is something that we can all share our perspective on. And for me to have the outside world listen to Mike and Tip grieve the loss of loved ones. And then on the flip side, hear my vantage point as well. If you. It pulls people in to say, man, I can relate to this. Now, a funeral is one of the most sobering times in people's lives. This is the perfect opportunity for those people who are grieving and wrestling with life after death to have a perspective from shaped by scripture. And even if the song isn't giving them a full perspective, what it is doing is making them investigate. Let me check this Lecrae dude out. And if you go through my catalog, you're going to run into the gospel, you're going to run into Christ, you're going to run into truth. So that was my objective. Every song I've done, I've not wanted them to give this, hey, Ty, Dollar sign, John Legend, give me a robust perspective on. No, no, you stay in your lane, I'll run in mine. To me, I'm a missionary. And so the whole goal for me in that is just to be a missionary. I know I'm giving a very long answer for this. I apologize. I have so many philosophies. Here's what I will say. There are some good articles and some good books on this. Specifically, I love Nancy Pearcey's Total Truth. I love Tim Keller's Reasons for God. I love. I forgot who wrote it, but Urban Face of Mission, where I've been a missionary, I've lived in different places. Being a missionary in cultures. When I approach music, I'm approaching like a missionary, not somebody who's trying to give these people a. You know, I'm not a pastor and this is not a pulpit. I'm an artist and this is a canvas. And I'm asking people to come paint with me, not give a sermon. Hopefully that that helps. Y' all see this? See this? I Had to stop the episode real quick. I know, it was good, too. It was a good part, but I had to stop the episode. Cause of this. See my hair. All right, listen, I had to unlearn a lot when it came to looking like this, Getting my hair looking like this, okay? Because, you know, people give you advice like, everybody's hair is the same. Like, oh, you should use this. No, baby, use that. But look, this textured hair is different. My hair can grow slow. My hair gets dry, it thins out. And if I treat it like somebody else's hair, I'm not going to get the same results as everybody else. So that's why I appreciate Baskin Lather. Because Baskin Lather actually makes products with this hair in mind. Not an afterthought, baby. They got the stimulating scalp and hair balm that's made with 100% natural ingredients. It helps nourish and hydrate my curly, kinky hair. And it reduces breakage and adds shine. It's not greasy. It's no petroleum or lanolin. And with consistent use, people have seen results in about three months. They also have this hydrating hair mist with aloe vera and avocado oil that helps with the dryness and the frizz, the detangling and keeping your styles like your locks, your twists and your braids hydrated. You know what else I love? I love that it's a black owned and family operated company. Okay? The founder and her mother started formulating their products after her younger sister was misdiagnosed by a dermatologist and told her that her hair was not going to grow back. But now her hair is down to her hips. So this is not just hair care. This is family. This is faith. This is resilience. This is finding out what actually works for us. So what I want you to do is I want you to explore the viral best sellers and products for healthier hair of all types. From Baskin Lather. You gotta go to baskinlatherco.com baskinlatherco.com use my code, deep end, and I'm gonna give you 20% off. All right? It's 20% off at Baskin Lather. You know the product works. Look at your boy. I'm just trying to tell you. Baskinlathercode.com Cold. Deep end. Listen, I know nobody likes ad breaks. I don't like them, you don't like them. But I do them because they're necessary. And this one is more than an ad break. This one, I'm looking at my Wallet. Because I don't have any cash on me. And some of you may not have any cash, period. Why? Because sometimes money is not the problem. The timing is the problem. You work for hours. You earned your check, but the paycheck date is still sitting there like, hey, just wait on me. And I have lived enough life to know that waiting on money can make people make decisions that they would not normally make. And we don't want you making bad decisions out here. So that's where earn in comes. Okay? It's pronounced earn in, like E, A, R, N. Earn in. So earn in is a financial technology company, it's not a bank, okay? It gives you access to your money that you've already earned up to $150 a day with a max of $1,000 between paydays. And listen, this is important. This is not a payday loan, okay? I don't do that to my people. There's no interest, there's no credit checks, there's no mandatory fees. And the tips are optional. If you want to leave a tip, leave a tip. Standard cash outs take one to two business days. No mandatory fees. Expedited transfers available for a fee. Tips voluntary, and they don't affect your service. Okay? So whether it's groceries, whether it's a bill, or you just. You just don't want your life dictated by a payroll date, Earn in gives people a little more breathing room. So what I need you to do is download earn in on the App Store or Google Play. And it's spelled like earning money without the g. So earn in and then type in the deep end with lecrae under podcast when you sign up. All right, so it's going to help the show when you do that. Now, your access limits are based on your earnings and risk factors available in select states, terms and restrictions, and apply. Visit Earnin.com for the full details. You were associated with the Reformed community for some years. What caused you to leave that community? And do you still hold to that theology? Reformed theology, for some people who don't know what Reformed theology is, Reformed theology is. Some people don't even know. So a theology is. It's a system of beliefs about God, right? And Reformed theology, typically, you can express it by saying, like, they believe in total depravity, which is like, all human beings are sinful through and through. Unconditional election, where it's kind of like, hey, man, there's nothing you can do to earn the love of God. Limited atonement, meaning that Jesus died, but he only died for the elect, for a certain group of people who he had predestined to become Christians. Irresistible grace, which is the idea that, you know, you can't resist the Spirit calling you and drawing you to become a believer. And then perseverance of the saints, which just means basically, you know, once saved, always saved, you're not going to lose your salvation. God's going to preserve you until the end. And honestly, it wasn't the theology that I struggled with mostly with the Reformed circles that I ran in. It really wasn't. It was, it wasn't the orthodoxy. It wasn't. The orthodoxy is like how consistent you are with what you believe. Like, is it sound? Is it scriptural? It wasn't the orthopraxy in terms of like, hey, are you practicing what you believe? Right? It was the orthopathy. Orthopathy is like based off of your understanding of truth and scripture and theology. How loving and understanding are you toward individuals? And I struggled to, because in the reform camp, man, we were so heady and so in, in so many ways self righteous because of how much information. And we felt like we were the ones who had it right, that it was very hard to be empathetic. They used to, they'd call us the frozen chosen, right, because we're heartless people who really understand theology. And, and it's kind of like, well, you know, if you're gonna be saved, you're gonna be saved no matter what, and God will get them. And, you know, it just, it was a culture in my perspective of self righteousness, of, you know, just lack of empathy, lack of care and things could be articulated away and explained away. And I'm not saying that that's a broad brush. That's not everybody in the reform circles. That was what I tended to experience theologically. I'm still pretty reformed in a lot of ways. From being honest theologically, the area, I would say I do believe we're sinful through and through. I do believe that there are no conditions by which God saves us. Like, it's not you got to be good or anything. I do believe that. I do believe that God perseveres us, that, you know, you can't lose your salvation. I do believe that. I do believe that his grace is irresistible, that if he's coming for you, you're not going. Psalm 23. It's like he says that the goodness of God will pursue me all days of my life, like it's going to hunt you down, right? I struggle with the concept of limited Atonement. I struggle with the idea that this, that Jesus only died for a few people. I believe he died for everyone. And I'm also a continuationist. A lot of reformed people are not continuationists. Which means, like the gifts have ceased. Now, this is not all reform camps, but they do believe the gifts have ceased. Again, I don't have it all figured out. I'm not gonna sit here and say I am the king theologian. I think in my time, in my studies where I've seen some supernatural, miraculous things that the reform camps just don't address, don't talk about. And then also as it pertains to election and limited atonement, I'm a lot more covenantal in terms of believing that man, God may have elected us to be in homes where we can be exposed to the gospel. Not so much that, well, you know, if Johnny is not a Christian, he's just an object of God's wrath and that's all he was ever going to be. There was never any hope for him to come to Jesus. I wrestle with that. That's where my theological convictions are. So maybe I'm a four point, you know, Calvinist. I don't even like the term Calvinist because, you know, Calvin, the Bible supersedes Calvin. The Bible was around before John Calvin. So yeah, that's kind of where I'm at. I still love, I love a lot of Reformed thinkers, but I'm, I'm just, I would say I'm, I'm a hodgepodge, I'm a mashup. I love Tim Keller, but I love John Mark Comer, you know what I'm saying? I love Tony Evans and I love Dr. Anita Phillips. I'm a mashup of a lot of different things. And I would say more, I'm a biblical, I'm an ancient Near Eastern biblical. Subscriber more than I am a Reformed theology subscriber. So I don't think Jesus was Reformed. So if that, I hope that answers your question. But I have nothing but love for the Reformed camp. Brilliant thinkers. And here's what I'll say this. They taught me to be a critical thinker. There is no, I have never seen more critical and astute thinkers than the Reformed believers. And I mean brilliant astute and critical and thinkers. And so I celebrate that. And I celebrate them for that. There's just some things where I would say I struggle, but I'm open. I'm open. God, if you want to show me something different, my hands are open. I don't, I'm not holding anything with a closed fist. I'm more like, hey, Lord, if. If you have a perspective I need to see, bring it. You know what I'm saying? So that's where I'm at on that. Pause, pause. I must interrupt. I know we pausing this conversation for a second, but this one, this one sits right in the world of what we talk about on the deep end. All right, in all seriousness, there are just so many Christians out here that are silently suffering because they think their unwanted thoughts mean that they're broken or they're faithless or they're failing God. But sometimes what people are are calling spiritual failure is actually religious ocd. The technical name is scrupulosity ocd. And no CD pronounced no C D. Okay, so maybe you're in worship or your mind starts spiraling. You're like, did I pray right? Oh my God, did I offend God? I need. I need to start over. I didn't do it perfectly. Or maybe there's some disturbing thoughts or some blasphemous thoughts that pop in your head and now you're like, like panicking, like, oh my God, why would I even think that? And listen, intrusive thoughts do not define you, okay? OCD can latch on to what you care about most, even your faith, and trap you in cycles of guilt and fear and confession over praying and trying to mentally solve every single thought. That's why I appreciate no cd. Now, what is no cd? It is the world's leading OCD treatment provider. All of their licensed therapists are trained in erp, or exposure and response prevention therapy. It is the most effective treatment for ocd. NOCD therapists understand that these thoughts do not mean anything about you. In live virtual sessions, they help you break free from OCD's grip while still honoring your faith. NOCD is covered by insurance for over 155 million Americans. And they provide support between sessions so that you're never alone. So if you think you might be struggling with religious ocd, please don't wait. I want you to go over to nocd.com, book a free 15 minute call with their team today, and start reclaiming your faith from OCD. Okay, that's nocd.com n o c d
- [30:24]
Podcast Host (Ad Reader)
dot com this episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates Price and coverage match limited by state law, not available in all states.
- [30:48]
Listener/Caller with Church Culture Question
My friends that are actually cool and super funny and all feel like there's no space for them in the church culture and community. I brought a friend to your concert, and he was really turned off by Miles Minick performing, not sober, making him feel like we're at some kids summer camp. The church I'm a part of is just filled with uncool people who don't know how to talk to people. So I just won't bring my friends. Cause I know they won't be taken care of. Feel like the only people who stay are usually losers. And those who just want the community rather than Jesus himself. Just wanted to hear thoughts of how to bring friends to the church when the church culture can be very, like, hard to be part of. Maybe it's just my church community.
- [31:39]
Lecrae
I love that I've been you in so many ways, man. I think that we can learn from each other. Here's the. Here's the reality. Certain aspects of Christianity is just not cool. It's not ever going to be cool. It's not meant to be cool. And that's just the. Like, you just got to think, man. Christianity levels the playing field. It. It's a place where the nerd, the paraplegic, the addict, the divorcee, the. I mean, all these people are welcome. And we're a family, and we connect and we hang out and we love each other and we share meals like it is literally, you know, just the odd family. You know, we're all the misfits. And that is the beauty of Christianity in some ways, is that, you know, Paul says not many of you were noble. Not many of you come from these illustrious backgrounds. Y' all just were not the cool kids. Most of the Christians just were not the cool kids. And I think there's a reason for that. I think the reason for that is that it's harder for a rich man to get to heaven. It's easier for a rich man to get through the eye of a needle than to get into heaven. Because if you feel like you've got it all together, what do you need God for? You've got the money, you've got the wisdom, you've got the clout. Why do you need God? You're cool. And I think Christianity rails in the face of that and says, you're actually weak, you're actually frail, and you need a savior. And so the dope part about Christianity is that it opens itself up to welcome anybody. Now, that being said, there is a culture specifically In America of Christianity that is sometimes overly religious, sometimes exclusive to people who are processing and wrestling. I love what Tim Keller says about when he writes his sermons. He always preaches as if there are nonbelievers in the room because it opens it up for anybody and everybody to feel like they have a voice or their, they can be accepted there. I don't want to feel stupid for not knowing terms. I don't want to feel shunned for wrestling with something that you all are not wrestling with. I think Miles song about sobriety, I can understand that it may feel like this exclusive club more than it feels like a celebration of overcoming addiction or not being sober. Like it juxtaposes against people who are, who are not sober. And I think that's a lesson that Christians have got to continuously learn, right? Sometimes we do get a little haughty, but I also think more mature Christians have got to get to a place where we understand like, hey, that that's a process of growth. And when you see those gaps, you get to be the person to bring that light and that wisdom. And so it's easier to sit in our, our, our iron throne and throw stones. I just a prime example at my church specifically, I see a gap in terms of connecting with the 25 to 35 year old. The, the service, the culture really connects with 35 and older. And I could be critical and say, man, this music doesn't even cater to somebody 25, 35. This message doesn't cater to 2535. This event doesn't cater to 2535. And I could just be critical and say, see, this is why I don't bring my 2535 year old friends here. But instead I said, hey, is there any way I could serve to help close this gap where the 25 and 35 year olds are? And I said, I have a suggestion. And here's a couple of suggestions I have. Let's do this, let's do this, let's do this. And instead of being critical, I provided solutions, right? It's like, hey, what's the solution to this? So, you know, my solution to a Miles song about sober is me writing my song with Madison Ryan Ward, you know, still sober, where it wrestles with the humanity of addiction and being addicted and just trying to process and wrestle with it versus I'm sober. Bump that alcohol, man. Forget that stupid weed. It's like, well, there's people who are really wrestling and they're not where you are, right? And I get that we want to become this culture of, like, turn away from what's wrong. Let's go. We're distinct, and there's a time for that. But there's also being responsible to know that, man, everyone in this room does not think the way you think. And so you've got to get people there. And even when I'm talking to younger believers, I say, and so this is where people may think I'm a compromiser, right? Because I don't tell people I've been this person already. I've been the person who says, I don't do that, and I don't do this. But what I tell young believers when they first become Christians and they're starting to write songs, I say, don't go straight. From, like, a month ago, you were rapping about drugs and sexual, and now you're rapping about Bibles and disciples. Don't do that. That may sound like compromising. No, what I tell people is, take folks on the journey with you. How did you get here? You did not just wake up and was like, bibles and disciples. You went through a process of like, I'm struggling. I don't want to do what I used to do, but I'm tempted to do what I used to do. When I first became a Christian, for, like, three years, man, I was on a struggle bus. I was like, mountaintop Jesus, share the gospel, crash at the club. And, oh, man, I slipped up and slept with somebody. And, like, be honest about that instead of, like, trying to act like, you don't. I don't do that. And I think that's a response to us not wanting to go back where we were. And so we're fighting, but the thing that we're yelling from the mountaintops is oftentimes what we're privately struggling with. So, yeah, man, all that to say, become the solution, right? And I've become that. And people say I'm a compromiser because of it, but I see the fruit, and I can't worry about people saying, oh, you're not distinct. Where's your flagpoles? Be more put on. I'm like, yeah, but I'm seeing people's lives transformed, you know, so there's that.
- [39:05]
Listener/Caller with Career Question
Basically, I've been struggling with where God is trying to take my career. I'm 24 and been out of college for two years, but I've been feeling so stuck during those two years. I've always had a passion to be a singer, songwriter, or entertainer, but I keep getting stuck in the same cycle of the nine to five working These jobs that bring no fulfillment to my life. I want to pursue music, but it's hard because I want to still uphold my Christian values and not let go of my morals. It's been a mental battle of what I should do to pursue this dream.
- [39:40]
Lecrae
Hmm, Interesting. I guess I would say, I guess I would say, like, your passion's not always going to be your paycheck, you know. And for me, I'm passionate about the kingdom. I'm passionate about pursuing the Lord. I'm passionate about using art and music to do that. What's happened for me in my journey is I was doing that when there wasn't a goal. Like when I started doing this, there was no such thing as a BET Award for me, a Grammy for me, a six figure check for me. None of those things existed when I started doing it. I did it because I was passionate about it, because I saw a need, not because I felt like this is the way I'm going to make money or become famous or make a big impact. I did it because I just, it was a burden for me and I did it. And I worked a 9 to 5 because I never thought that my passion had to be my paycheck. I only quit my 9 to 5 when I was able to be supported by doing this. And at the, and, and even then, I mean, the. I was making 36k a year, which to me was a million dollars a year, right, $36,000 a year to rap for Jesus. I'm in heaven. I lived in a 720 square foot house with my wife and two kids. And I was, I'm in heaven because I was doing what I loved and connecting with people and reaching people. There was no thought of, man, this has got to take me to new heights. And so I would just be careful with always thinking that your passion and your paycheck are going to be aligned now. Praise the Lord if it can be. That's a grace and a gift, but it's not always going to be connected. And so I just think that we have to be careful there. We have to ask ourselves, man, what is our goal and why are we doing this? Now it's possible for you to work in a creative field, work in something adjacent to music and pay your bills. But I know I'm living a pipe dream. I know that I am the exception and not the rule. I think a lot of people assume that they see people doing it and they're like, oh, that could be me. I could do this, I could be that. I was just Looking at Eddie Murphy's career, and I was like, what an exception? Or my son wants to be an actor? And I forgot what movie we were watching, but there were just so many extras in one particular scene. And I was like, all of them have your dream. All of these people in this party scene, 90% of them want to be actors, want to be the three people who have lines in this scene. But only those three people are getting paid a substantial amount and get to speak on camera. And I was like, you just gotta know that and say, hey, man, that may not become our reality. You can pursue it. And I'm not telling you not to, but I'm just saying that that may not be your reality. And I think, you know, it comes with a lot, man. It comes with a lot of scrutiny, so stay in the fight. Why does it always feel like you
- [43:48]
Listener/Caller with Church Culture Question
wanna distance yourself from cross movement? Would you ever feature the Ambassador on a song?
- [43:55]
Lecrae
Dang. Let's just talk about this in general, because I think this is a scrutiny area where people would see me as, like, being fake or not being real is like the perceived distancing myself from preachers, pastors, rappers. You know, I'll be honest, I don't have beef with anybody now. Some people have beef with me. You know, people, oh, when are you gonna reconcile with kb? I don't. I never. KB and I love each other and, you know, I was aloof to some of the struggles he had with me, so we had to meet and talk about it. When you gonna reconcile with D1? I don't have any issues with D1. If D1 has issues with me, I'm down to talk. But I love D1, you know what I'm saying? So I don't really have issues with people. I think sometimes people may think I do, but I don't now with Cross Movement. Yeah, all right, let's go there. Let's go there. If you don't know who Cross Movement is, Cross Movement is a hip hop group that was pretty prominent in the 90s, late 90s, mid to late 90s, very prominent. They were kind of the prototype for 116 when. When we came out, they were our big brothers. They were the people that we looked to, to how do we do this Christian rap thing. I. I had great admiration and respect for them because they embodied hip hop and Christianity very well. Maybe artistically we were worlds apart. Sonically worlds apart. But I admired how they moved. They took me on my first tour. DJ official, who was my DJ who passed away was the reason Why I ended up. My first album got put out through cross movement, even though it was Reach Records and cross movement. But I think a couple things. Number one, there was a season in my life where there was some bitterness. Just being honest, because of a lot of internal disagreements. And there was some bitterness there, you know, some frustration there. I felt like I should have been taken care of better than I was. I felt like there should have been more clarity on things than there was. And so I was like, man, I'm not highlighting y'. All. Cause y' all didn't. Y' all didn't treat me right. So I'm not giving y' all no credit, no love. And I'd say that I was wrong for. Cause that's not what love does. Love doesn't keep record of wrongs and harbor bitterness toward people. So I was wrong for that. But more recently, I mean, I pay homage to them because of the wave that they paved. But more recently, I think you just don't hear me mention them because I know that it's like people are like. They don't know who they are. This generation. I mean, some of this generation doesn't know who I am as a rapper. They just know me as a podcaster. So they surely aren't going to cross movement. But I, I, man, they are game changers. They changed my. My life in so many ways. I have nothing but love and respect for them, stylistically and sonically. I can be a bit of a snob. And so that's probably why you don't, you know, in terms of, like, oh, well, I'm not making a track that they would fit on is why you wouldn't hear them on the track. But absolutely. I love Ambassador. I love him. And if the song made sense, for sure, I think that, man, bump it. I'mma just say it. I think that they had a lot of struggles with me once I started to work with secular artists, once I stopped rapping so explicitly scriptural. Right. Because I was never wired that way. I was always a storyteller. I was always a culture. I was a missionary in a culture. They were theologians and they were biblical scholars who wrapped Ephesians from front to back. I was just never that I tried, but it just wasn't authentically me. What was authentically me was songs like Praying for your or Take Me As I Am, where it's like testimonial and it connects culturally. And so I think they just kind of like it was more of them, like, shame, shame, shame toward me that made me Feel like, well, forget it then. I'm not gonna do nothing. But that's years ago. I think we. We've reconciled and we have connected over the years, and it's all love. I think they're all amazing in their own right. And I'm praying for Brady, so. Love you, Brady.
- [49:22]
Sponsor Voice (Ad Reader)
Why in 2026, do you think depression, mental health, and anything similar to that is still such a stigma in the church? And it's judged so harshly, and the other Christians either don't believe that you have it, or they tell you to just pray it away?
- [49:39]
Lecrae
Oh, yeah. I mean, I think mental health is. Is stigmatized because you can't see it, and because we tend to think of our brain as. Not as an organ, but as like a spiritual component. Like, our. Our thoughts and our emotions are supernatural and spiritual, and therefore, they're not an aspect of, you know, an organ in our body. And so we don't tend to think of the brain as an organ that needs to be taken care of. But more so, like us, our. Our mind is spiritual, and it's something that needs to be prayed about. And. And here's the reality. Like, all of our bodies need a spiritual. There's spiritual components, right? You know, if you're having a heart attack or heart disease or cancer, it's spiritual as well. You know, we pray, but we also exercise. We also take our. Our medicine. We, you know, and I. I think it's just weird if we. If we're like, oh, well, heart disease, take your medicine. Depression, pray. I think that's unacceptable. I think it's like, hey, you go to a doctor for your eyes if they're bad. You go to a therapist for your brain if it's struggling. Right? So I think there's just a gap. You know, I mean, we're constantly growing and learning. Oftentimes the church is a little bit behind culture and society, and we're wary of it because. Cause there's a secular worldview or a worldview that doesn't include God in a lot of science. And so we just back away from it instead of engaging it and saying, well, wait a minute, I love the perspective of, like, you know, Jennifer Wiseman, who's a astrophysicist, I believe she is, and just a devout Christian, or even Andrew Huberman, who is starting to process, like, oh, wait a minute, there's a creator in light of what I'm seeing scientifically. So I. I just think that we've got to step into those realms and become, like, leaders in helping people to establish a a a biblical and a Christian worldview in the realm of mental health and neuroscience. Those are just areas that I think we leave alone. And because we've left them alone, worldviews that are not Christian have taken them over. And we're kind of primitive and we're like, ooga booga, throw some bones and throw a prayer at it. Instead of like, hey, there's something to understand about this. We always have to bring prayer and the supernatural into the the conversation. But oftentimes God uses the natural to accomplish supernatural means, right? And so I think it's us understanding the natural. That's just wisdom to to move in a and understand things to help people. And there's a means of grace in that process. So hope that's helpful.
- [53:11]
Podcast Host (Ad Reader)
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- [53:33]
Sponsor Voice (Ad Reader)
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- [54:33]
Podcast Host (Ad Reader)
in your song Die for the Party, you said
- [54:36]
Lecrae
the world will call me weak and the saints will say I embarrass them. What do you mean by that? And what book within the Bible helped you find peace and comfort the most in the midst of the church rebuking you? Yeah, in the song Die for the Party, I'm responding to Kendrick and I said the world will Call me weak. And the saints will say I embarrass him, which means, like, I just can't ever win. You know what I mean? It's like the world's gonna say, you're weak for being a Christ follower. The saints will say, you're not a Christ follower enough. And you embarrass us, and you need to repent, and I rebuke you, and you're a wolf and all these things. And so it's like you just don't ever win. And. And part of me is just saying, man, I gotta be okay with that. To be a follower of Jesus means that you're gonna face persecution. He says, actually, blessed are you who are persecuted for my namesake. I think oftentimes we think that persecution for his namesake is just gonna come from the world. It's just gonna be like, oh, you're Christian, stupid. Not realizing that there'll be people who proclaim to be followers of Christ who are religious folks who will persecute you for you following Jesus in the way that you do, right? And so Jesus was. Was mocked by the religious and by the Romans, who were like, what is this? You know, take his clothes, whatever. You mocked on both sides. And I think I have to remember I'm in good company when that happens. It hurts more from the church. Being honest, that's where it really hurts. But as you mature and you grow in grace and wisdom, you understand why. He says, father, forgive them, for they know not what they do. I begin to pray for people. I think of a guy. He used to be my biggest critic. Oh, my gosh. I don't know about my biggest, but he used to be a super critic of me. And I'm going to just say his name because I. Because shout out to you wherever you are. I don't know where he's at in the world right now, but this brother's name was Javon McKenzie. I don't know what he's got going on these days, but Javon McKenzie used to be on my head top, you know, I could never do anything right, you know, with my music, or I was a compromiser or all these things. And instead of fighting back, I just. I would love him. I pray for him. I try to explain myself if I could, but I was like, I'm not going to look at him as an enemy. I believe he loves the Lord. I just believe he's wrong about me. And years went down the line, and he ended up reaching out to me and apologizing and saying, man, I've Grown in some areas, and I see some things where I was not correct. And I think the blessed part of that is that I don't know if we would have had that reconnection. And I love him for that, for that humility and that wisdom. If I had not moved with grace and humility toward him, I don't know if he comes, how that dynamic happens. So if he's just an antagonist now, we're both wounded, and someone's got to be the bigger person and apologize, and oftentimes that doesn't happen. And so, man, I just think it's important to. To. To just not always spar back. You know, I used to. I used to do that so much. I just clap back, clap back. Get online. Clap back, clap back, clap back. You're a wolf. And then I got. Oh, yeah, well. And. And instead, I just had to come to grips with, man. I'm. They don't understand me. I'm. I'm misunderstood. I. I mean no harm. I love Jesus, you know? You think I'm a Mason. I'm not. You think I'm a fake Christian. I'm not. There are people to this day, to this day, after 23 years of me doing music for the kingdom that will say, just be honest, bro. Stop lying. You don't love the Lord. And I'm like, you. You think I would keep this up for 23 years, but it's like, I can't. I burn energy living in that space. And, you know, I have my weak moments where I want to explain to people some things and clap back, but I don't. There's some things that were not brought up in some of these questions that people asked. And I want to. Like, there's a couple of them I want to just address, just head on politically. I think people. People really do believe that I put a flagpole in the ground politically. I never have, being to be honest. Now, I did show up and do a song at a Vote early rally that was sponsored, which I didn't know at the time, by Raphael Warnock and Jon Ossoff here in Atlanta. I had no idea, you know, when I was called by the mayor's office, and it was like, hey, can you come do a vote early rally? And I literally asked this question. I said, are both representatives gonna be there? And what I meant was, like, Republican and Democrat, because I'm not trying to get in this heated thing. They said, yeah, both representatives will be there. What they meant was, both of the Democratic representatives will be there. So I jump Out. I rap. As soon as I get off the stage, I jump back in the car, I go home. And then Raphael Warnock comes out after me, unbeknownst to me. And then everyone's like, oh, Lecrae supports abortion. He's not a real Christian. I was like, what the heck is going on? How did this become my narrative? And, you know, that was never my intention. I'm pro life, but I'm pro life from the womb to the tomb. Just so you know that I. I do not advocate for the aborting of babies, but I also am just as passionate about the lives of those who are walking around not being exterminated. So I just. I want to be consistent there. And then I also am. I'm compassionate in that regard as well. Number one, because I pushed for my girlfriend to get an abortion when I was younger. And number two, because I've seen people spit and yell and protest against folks who are going to get an abortion and not be compassionate toward them and not say, hey, man, what's going on? What's your story? What do you need? What are your circumstances? We were poor. We didn't know any better. We were struggling, and no one came to us and was like, yo, I see your circumstances. Let me counsel you through this. None of that. None of that, right? So I'm just saying, like, I think there are better ways, and there's better. There's opportunities to help circumvent people. Having to even have that as an option, economically, relationally, on and on goes a pattern. So I'm about, like, the. The systemic aspect of how that becomes an issue. Are we addressing that even still? I'm still pro life, but that doesn't mean that. It doesn't mean that that shapes my political views. Right. Like, I guess what I'm saying is, like, if there's a mayoral candidate who is pro life, but he worships demons and he thinks that human beings are. I don't know, he has some weird philosophy on humans. I don't want to support that man, even if he is pro life. You know what I'm saying? So it just doesn't inform my whole political vantage point. And so what people have said is like, oh, you support Raphael Warnock? No, I didn't. I don't agree with his views on abortion. I didn't know he was about to pop out. But then they've seen me stand next to other politicians, and it had more to do with them being thinkers and leaders of color than their political ideologies, because I was like, wow, that's dope to me that there's someone who's in this position and is a person of color and that my kids can look up to. And if you're not a person of color, that you probably don't even know why that is a substantial thing or why that's important. But there's just such a lack of visibility in communities of color of these types of figures. So that's why it was important. But again, I've never been an advocate or a promoter of any politician and I never will. But that's one of the areas where people have struggled with me on and sorry, you know what I'm saying? And then I'm trying to think if there's any other area where people think I've compromised. I don't know. You know, I will say this. I've had to grow in public, which is hard. My views have changed significantly. Some people to this day, they'll say, yeah, his music used to be so chock full of the gospel and it's so watered down now. Those are people. I'm like, when's the last album you listen to? Was it Rebel? You know what I'm saying? Because I mean, if you listen to restoration or reconstruction, man, the gospel is straight up right there in your face. So for me, I'm like, I don't know if they're still listening, but I think people will say, well, because the songs that were prominent that I heard were not gospel fueled, such as Coming In Hot, one of the biggest songs we've ever put out. It's like they don't hear the gospel in that. He fell off. It's like, well, that's one song, you know, And I mean, it's one song. It's a fun song. You know, Church clap ain't got the gospel in it. I'm not preaching the gospel. But you love that one, though, you know what I'm saying? So it's like, you know, I mean, it talks about Jesus, I guess. I don't know. But yeah, all that to say, man, I've definitely. I could have done a better job over the course of my career of being consistent, but I was doing it in public and I didn't have a roadmap and I didn't have any guidance and I can own that, you know, I think there's more consistency that could have shown up over the course of my career. And I don't want to be known as somebody who's lukewarm or a compromiser. It's why I have friends. It's funny because some of my friends are the people that you're like, I hope you get them. Jackie Hill Perry. I hope you get them. Preston Perry, Phil Anthony Mitchell. Get them. And I'm like, those are my friends. You know, I love those people. You know, I invite them to prayer. You know, it's like, I don't know, but I get it. You know, over the course of my career, I think the things that the highlight reel has been areas that look more compromising and what is not more prominent are the Bible studies or the discipleship groups or the, you know, the, I don't know, the sermons. Those have not been the most prominent things. And that's because, if I'm being honest with you, at my core, I'm a missionary. So will you probably see me more is in places and spaces where there's darkness. I. I don't. I don't see myself as the prophet that Jackie Hill Perry is who wants to be a prophet to the church community. I love the church. I want to continually wrestle with him. But this is why you'll see people sitting in the chair across from me who. Some are believers and thinkers. Some are people who are outside the faith. And that just is the reality of who I am and where I'll always be. Because I want to see people come to Jesus. I want to build relationships. I haven't done it perfectly. And people. People that I talk to still have not come to Jesus. You know what I'm saying? I've been knowing them for years. I can't save them. Only God can. And some people will judge me for that. They'll be like, man, all these time you talking to this person, they still ain't came to Christ. Where's the fruit? I mean, Paul was in Athens for a long time. I mean, not for a long time. I'm saying Paul spent time in Rome and in Athens. And it was like, man, you know, some places you see tons of fruit, some places you don't. So that being said, man, I. I want to. I want to publicly apologize to anyone who I've misled unintentionally or caused to stumble unintentionally. That has never been my heart. Never been my heart, never been my attention. And I want to also encourage people who are toeing the line and are misunderstood. That, man, that's part of being a follower of Jesus. Praise God. You get to do it in private. But hopefully, man, you will not see anybody who I'm associated with as anything less than lovers of God or people made in the image of God and that you'll pray for the work that I'm trying to do, albeit imperfectly. So I love y', all, man. And I really dive into this stuff and unpack it scripturally and definitively at Reconstruct U. So make sure you guys go to start.restructu.com. you know, you can download the app as well, but on Reconstruct the letter U, not Y O U. Reconstruct U. Google it. Where, man, we really dive into this as a community. I teach classes. There's. I'm, you know, giving people some behind the scenes on the bars and the music. And then also there's some deep end episodes that are exclusive to that as well where I'm engaging culture and talking to people in, you know, in the culture that it may not be for the world to see, but it's for those people who want to unpack this and really wrestle. So come join us on that community and walk with us through it and see for yourselves. You know how to live this out, man. But I appreciate y'. All. I love y'. All. God bless y'.
- [70:42]
Sponsor Voice (Ad Reader)
All.
- [70:43]
Podcast Host (Ad Reader)
Love this episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates Price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states.